The Penguin Sagas of Icelanders book has both Vínland Sagas in English translation. See my Amazon “influencer” store under Norse myths and sagas: amazon.com/shop/jacksoncrawford
The Saga of Erik the Red mentions a place called Hvitramannaland, which was supposedly near Markland, and was home to a group of people known for wearing white clothes. Markland may be located in what is now Labrador, and the Indigenous people of Labrador--the Innu--historically wore coats made of caribou hides that had been bleached white. I wonder if the saga's description of Hvitramannaland is actually a reference to the Innu and their homeland.
@@mikaeltillenius8751 That only works if you consider the Americas 3 continents, that is Central America (incl. the Caribbean) being separate from North America, or in other words, if by North America you only mean the US and Canada. He did visit places like Honduras and Nicaragua plus many islands in the Caribbean. So in most views, yes, he did visit North America. Just not modern day USA (except the territories of Puerto Rico and USVI) and Canada.
@@weepingscorpion8739 first of all, you're forgetting Mexico is part of north america, second of all the Caribbean is its own subregion, it's not a part of central america
even better, the vinland sagas were well known among northern european seamen during the renaissance, ol' chris never discovered anything, he learned about the new world from a few scandi sailors he crossed paths with in port
@@jonnieuppercut I dunno... have always been taught that North America = US + Canada (+ MX) + Central America + Caribbean + Greenland. Essentially CONCACAF minus Guyana, Suriname, and French Guiana.
This reminds me of reading Beowulf for the first time, and certain paragraphs going "*ding ding* this part is real". Particularly the raid on the Frisians. It accounts for why Beowulf is depicted as a super-swimmer and someone able to kill with his bare hands (he does both against monsters elsewhere, but in the raid it is described as almost within normal human ability, except that he swam all the way home, i.e. he probably swam to his boat).
Such a crazy idea, to think the vikings might have established actual colonies in America, would have been even stranger if contact with them was lost with the abandonment of Greenland and the explorers reached canada in the 1600s and find some funky Scandinavians speaking their own North-Germanic Language
30-100 individuals (men and women) do not take over land. The interesing part of this saga is why nobody went again. Well 1262 Ísland becam a subject of the king of Noregur. The whole idea of theese people at that time was a simple fact. Push for more. I was told at the ag eof about 17. "Ef sverð er of stutt, stígðu skrefi framar" This is why a few famelies managed to have a trade network from Persia, North Africa, Canada, Greenland, Russia, soain Italy, Greece etc etc. My anchestors did not understand the idea of impossible. You just push harder. :-)
Such a small colony is not likely to survive, and if they did, they would soon be assimilated into the local population. If continuous expeditions had brought in new people over a few generations, then maybe... Without resources like iron, horses, cattle, sheep, and familiar crops, the settlers would quickly have to abandon their own way of life and adopt the techniques and customs of the locals. The settlement itself is probably in a place suitable for the familiar way of life but pastures are no use if you don't have any livestock. Forests of timber (one of the most attractive resources for both icelanders and the Greenland settlers) is of no use if you haven't got iron tools to work it with. One of the last traces of the Greenland colony, some decades after they lost contact, was the corpse of a light-haired man, found all dressed in seal fur like the native Inuit.. The drowned man was equipped with weapons and tools made of bone and walrus tusks. In his belt was the sad remains of an iron knife, sharpened so many times that it was worn down to almost nothing. The Greenland colony was made up of hundreds of people, and used to be prosperous. They were however dependent on trade with Denmark for essentials like iron and timber. Trade was interrupted, and when an expedition was sent to reestablish contact with Greenland, the settlement was abandoned. How many years would you keep waiting for those ships before you seek out the natives and as to join them instead?
Native American mitrecondrial DNA was found in Iceland, dating from that time period. The newfoundland site was accurately dated via a geomagnetic storm recorded in the trees used to build the house. Nuts, lumber from further south were also found. The tides in the bay of fundy are the highest in the world, you can't out run them, but you can do whitewater rafting on them, down the road from me.
A tree used in the construction of a building in L'Anse aux Meadows was felled in 1021. The wood contains and retains evidence of a Miyake Event in 993, giving you, Mr Crawford, an excellent tree upon which to hang your hat.
I'm surprised to hear that it's only in the last decade that the pendulum has swung to vikings in America being mostly accepted, because I was under the impression that the findings in Newfoundland confirmed it in the 60s. How come it took until the last decade?
The Canadian government recognized L’Anse aux Meadows as an archaeological site in the 1960s. I remember learning about in school during the 1960s. I’m not sure who these naysayers who denied the evidence could be. Or it could be it is a myth that mainstream archaeology has rejected the earlier European discovery in favor of the Spanish one until recently in order to discredit the intentions of current archaeologists by outliers. I think what frustrates folks is, it takes time, sometimes decades, to slowly uncover, then figure out what is going on at archaeology sites from the distance past, as well it should.
People like to deny certain things for various reasons. I've had more than a handful of conversations with people who just refuse to believe they actually went there lol.
Columbus discovery of America was maybe the single most paradigm-shifting event in human history. It sent the world into a completely different direction and cemented a western European cultural dominance on the world stage for the rest of history until now. It resulted in a cascade of migration and massive demographic shifts Erik the red's discovery of America was a parenthesis in history. It did not create any significant outcomes at all. Maybe it could have, maybe the time wasn't right. Maybe it is chansen. (I think not) Both Erik and Columbus are interesting historical actors, and you may idolize wichewver one you want. But you must admit that Columbus' legacy is orders of magnitude more important to history. That is the difference. I think that if Columbus had not found America, someone else would have done it not much later. Western civilization had reached a level of technological maturity and geographical expansiveness, wich makes a discovery of the Americas inevitable. It is not so much the man himself, as the zeitgeist that led to the specific outcome.
There were a couple of hoax findings in the early 20th century when someone tried to prove the sagas true by planting and "discovering" some Norse object. So people who were around back then were probably a little jaded after having followed a couple of these stories that went from exited headlines to fizzling out when the "viking" artefact is 150 years old.
Just a theory about the grapes in Vinland. I was born and bred in Vinland (ie, Newfoundland, Canada assuming that is actually Vinland ) and while we do not have grapes growing, we do a lot of blueberries, especially in late summer and early fall (which we call blueberry season). Perhaps Vinland was just a mistake in naming. They saw blueberries and confused them with grapes? Just a theory.
Or perhaps Vínber (Currants)? Also there was a "Medieval Warm Period" in the North Atlanic region c. 950 to c. 1250. Maybe that changed plantlife. Even today I do have grapes in my garden, it's actually warm enough to grow in the warmest southern coastal regions of the Scandinavian Peninsula.
"They saw blueberries and confused them with grapes?" More likely, it's a mistake in naming while writing them down. Blueberries can be found all over Sweden and Norway, in HUGE amounts. We literally have foreigners coming here late summers just to make money from picking blueberries, lingonberries and a few other berries(cloudberries, blackberries etc). Grapes however, has only recently been cultivated in Scandinavia. But they were perfectly well known to vikings from travels to central and southern Europe. Mixing up blueberries and grapes? Zero chance. But the possibility of the same word being used for several types, like we today would use "berries"? Big chance. And as already noted by previous poster, the climate WAS warmer, so it's entirely plausible that grapes DID grow there at the time. Digs have not found anything conclusive that i know of, but there has been finds suggesting that it is plausible.
I don't think Norsemen would have confused grapes for blueberries. Here in the Nordics we have some of the best blueberries in the world and there's A LOT of them growing all over the place. I also really doubt they didn't know what grapes were, but it's far more likely that they would call grapes blueberries than the other way around. As someone already mentioned, I think it's even more plausible that there was some old fashioned word that was used for any type of berries or similar fruit (much like how "apple" used to be a generic term for fruit in general), although I have no evidence that this is the case.
Very interesting framing, thanks. The archaeological evidence for the settlements is overwhelming (if you're trained to study it, especially) at this point, but your point about the 'neutral tone' of the descriptions is something I've never considered.
A note on the Monopodes (one footed peoples), I think you're probably right. Many of these strange human-like beings were thought to exist on the fringes and in far off places, regardless of where these places were. Frankish missionaries discussed the possibility of encountering dog-headed people in Scandinavia when that was considered the fringe of civilization, and once Scandinavia was Christianised and more integrated into the Christian European core, they were thought to live further east instead, and Marco Polo mentions them in his travel narrative. On that note, the fact Marco Polo mentions them also goes to show that travel narratives by the 1200s (around the same time as these Sagas are being written) often included aspects of what people expected to find, even if they never actually saw them. Whether they were relating stories that they heard as if they'd experienced them first hand or merely included things that were expected, there are so often these fantastical elements sprinkled into otherwise grounded narratives, and this is surely amplified when there is a great span of time between the story which took place and the retelling of it.
I think that the dog-headed men is a different bucket of fish than the Monopodes. Remember, we also have the traditions of the berserkers and the legal concept of outlawry expressed as someone having “the head of a wolf” (caput lupinum). Germanic cultures have a history of using the idea of the wolf to categorize peoples who do not conform with the accepted rules of behaviour. I suspect that the references to the dog-headed men who lived in the less hospitable northern lands were probably misunderstood references to bands of outlaws or of tribes who were considered to be “beyond the pale” by the Lombards and the other tribes that talked about them. Later references, Marco Polo for instance, were probably using a motif of the past that had become orphaned from its original meaning; but the original references were probably not about a mythological race.
"On that note, the fact Marco Polo mentions them also goes to show that travel narratives by the 1200s (around the same time as these Sagas are being written) often included aspects of what people expected to find, even if they never actually saw them." Or, we are lacking in context and do not understand what they're referring to. Which might be something entirely and perfectly real and normal. This is an extremely common phenomenon and problem for anyone trying to translate old texts to modern language(which is something that i have personally worked on doing). Just in my own lifetime of less than 50 years, there are dozens of words whose meaning have completely changed. And it's literally a magnitude worse when looking at texts as old as these sagas. We have no ability at all to know when a word is used literally, figuratively or as slang.
Also they definitely dated the newfoundland site to 1000 CE via a geomagnetic storm that happened at that time and is recorded in the trees used to build the house.
I'm a fan of both the manga and Dr. Jackson. The manga, albeit just a product of popular culture, does a good job in regard of attracting interests from young audience and encourages them to learn more about actual history and culture. There are many history lovers who actually started from either watching shows or playing games before dving into the more "hardcore" stuff like reading research papers or learning a new language just to know the history behind it.
@@yifuyang6188Yeah I think a lot of people became interested in Norse & Greek myth and history due to pop culture. Which is great 👍. The more the merrier!
Hi Dr. Crawford, I’m a huge fan of your work, and have been for some time. I often listen to your videos while I work - I especially like to revisit your Positive Fatalism video, because the ideas you expand on in it are thematically hefty in the novel I’m writing. I have a funny request, though. When you are mixing/mastering your videos, could you make them a little louder? I’ve had the issue of not being able to hear you sometimes when I work, even if I put my headphones at maximum volume, because they are relatively quiet. Thank you for your time
I'm certain that in the last few years I've seen some discussion that there have been remains found, archaeologically, of Norse(Viking) down the US eastern seaboard into Florida. Not settlements, but visitation at least
It's true the pseudohistory stories are a bit dull. They aren't written by really talented fantasy writers, so they tend to just recycle a few themes and steal plot points from Atlantis.
Off-Topic: Jackson, have you ever heard the song 'My Mother Told Me' in Old Norse by Colm McGuinness? I'm wondering about the actual historical evidence that this chant might even have existed in that time period, but I've heard that it came from actual writings. Also, I'm really curious about Colm's pronunciation, regardless of the historical authenticity of the rhyme.
@@Herkanyes, I've heard several people perform the English Translation, but the Old Norse one is what interest me. I really like the Colm McGuinness version and I wanted to know if his Old Norse is any good. :)
@@llywyllngryffyn8053 I as a swede, not knowing Norse or icelandic, but who has a intrest in languages. When listen to the song and read the lyrics the pronunciation and the melody (in the voice) sounds very scandinavian. He sings it the way I would sound it. But hey that is just me 😅
If you decide to visit Newfoundland, I suggest July or August for the best weather. It turns rainy in September. I've visited the L'Anse aux Meadows site twice. They have some reproduction buildings at the site that are not historical in construction techniques, along with the actual ruins. There are some private attractions that are better, including the boat Snorri built following a ship found in Denmark.
Like Jackson says the anthropological detail in the sagas reads astoundingly true, the natives were frightened by the Norse cattle and wanted to buy their iron weapons, etc. 🤔
This was a really sober, nuanced look at the subject. ❤ And so much stuff I didn't know. I'm recommending your amazing books in the acknowledgements section of my current novel. Thanks for all the inspiration, the knowledge, and keeping me on the straight and narrow (as much as you can keep any literary fiction/time travel adventure author on the straight and narrow!). From placid Ohio, I wish you all the best. (tips 1920s bucket hat) ❤
When I watch the news I see realistic and unrealistic things. Embelishment. Spin. Tinfoil hats. Just like movies "based on actual events." The Sound of Music is a good one. People don't change. We are the same no matter when and where. Great video. Thank you. 😊
What’s your opinion of the Maine Penny? As I understand it, it dates to some time after L’Anse aux Meadows, which has been dated pretty precisely by dendrochronology. You mentioned that travel to North America continued for some time, and if the penny was truly from a Native American site, that would seem to support that.
I’ve heard discussion that the settlement at Newfoundland was more of a resting place and not a permanent settlement. Does anyone have more info on that?
It's theorized to be an overwintering place, when transiting between Iceland and south. The summer is too short to make the trip from Iceland to the new areas, so they'd pause at the northern tip of Newfoundland headed in either direction. So summer one would take them to L'Anse aux Meadows, summer two would be exploring south and gathering, and summer three would be a return to Iceland. The place is pleasant and sheltered enough, but not well protected in the winter. They probably would have chosen a different place to build a settlement. They were making bog iron, so perhaps they stayed there after discovering that as they could make nails to repair their boats. They made several round trips, but they weren't that profitable for the time spent away. In the decades before and after the visits south they would venture to Labrador to get wood.
It has been suggested that they went to vinland to gather wood, wich is extremely scarce on both Greenland and Iceland. An expedition would go to vinland and work through the winter, felling trees and laying the logs up to dry. (You cut the trees in the winter because the sap is retracted into the root system, so the logs become lighter and easier to work with tools. Logs can easily be dragged on sleds on the snow when the ground is frozen (well, easier than dragging the logs on soft ground through foliage and undergrowth) the logs are left to dry over the summer, and the bark will come off easier. The next winter they may have split the logs into planks and worked them in preparation for the journey home in the spring. Maybe the planks would have been left to dry for another few years before they were light enough to load on to ships. Harvesting timber is a multi-year process. We don't have any hard evidence that this is how they did it, but it is the tried and tested way of harvesting timber and preparing it into lumber and firewood. This is the way Scandinavians and others have alternated between seasonal farming and forestry for centuries, and this is how many farmers do it to this day (if they haven't sold off the logging rights to the big logging companies😢, wich can work day and night all year round in their massive all-terrain harvesters)
On Skraelingjar: there's an adjective used in Norwegian that most Norwegian dictionaries seem to have forgotten: skrall (not the noun or verb that have to do with loud noise). I would translate it as "in poor shape" as in a person that is sick or malnourished, or a meal is "skrall" if it is generally lacking, a car is "skrall" if it is about to fall apart. I wonder if the Norse had this word and used it to describe the to them unusual-looking people they found in America?
It's also interesting that the description of the places visited indicate a north to south voyage and can relate to the type of land north to south. If it was made up one could have said Vinland was in the north.
I started 1st grade in 1960, and I can remember, even in elementary school, the teachers talking about the Vikings and North America..it was a big deal. I vaguely remember a comic book in the 1960s depicting Vikings and Native Americans...way over the top stuff...but cool.
The Pogo creature, one legged and hopping, I find as an interesting feature in one of the saga's. A similar description is given in the Irish creation-story mythology of the Dagda and his wanderings around Ireland, happening across the original native inhabitants. When I first read this I was immediately put to mind of the Australian Aboriginals who, it is very well recorded, of having the energy saving stance of perching on one leg, standing still, for hours at a time. Sometimes with the aid of a spear or throwing stick, or perchance, bow and arrows. This always struck me as from a child I would always adopt the same stance when standing still for long periods. Interesting.
I seem to recall reading about a Viking iron pot found in the Connecticut River. That likely only means that it was traded away many times and ended up in Connecticut, but it is still pretty cool. Now if we find a few swords or a burial that far south, that would change things.
That is absolutely amazing if it is true. Viking age iron pots are insanely rare finds. As far as I know, there are only a handfull found in all of scandinavia. The best one preserved is in Sweden's national History Museum. The pot was in a chest of iron tools. The theory is that the tool chest must have fallen out of a boat crossing a lake. Because the chest was so heavy, it sank deep into the sediment below, wich created an oxygen-free environment. The chest and it's amazing content is on display and you can study the construction of overlapping segments of thin beaten plates held together with rivets. Weapons and other valuable artifacts are relatively common finds, because they are intentionally buried in graves. Graves are sometimes (not always) anaerobic environments, and they often remain undisturbed for long times. Tools and household items are rare, even if they would have been more common than weapons. The difference is that they would get used until they were worn out, and then probably get re-purpoused for something else. Only a lost pot could survive to our time, and it had to be lost in a place where it would be buried in clay or sediment, to shield the thin metal from oxygen. A river could be such a place, but man, it is unlikely that it'd show up one in Connecticut.
None, but there is archeological and genetic evidence. There are cow bones on Madeira that pre date Portuguese settlement and the mice there are of north European origin.
@@danvernier198 Couldn't find any sources about pre-settlement cow bones being found on Madeira but I did find a source which mentions the discovery of two mice skeletons. One of those skeletons were radiocarbon dated to having lived around 901-1036 AD. Also yeah, the current mice population show similarities to those found in Northern Europe
I think it is a great thought exercise to imagine where they would have gone, and I like thinking about the Sagas as a source for motivation or deterrence or else (without skræwlings sp?)I struggle to think of why they would not have continued to discover the entire earth, if only to satisfy a need to explore. With everything else they understood, I also imagine that they sorta suspected that where there was more sun, there was more warmth and life. Even without understanding physics and meteorology as we currently do they might have sensed that as you go south it gets warmer. But, I always snap my reveries back with the thought of the fact that there was trade with other civilizations, so such travels were not secret or uncommon. It would stand to reason that other cultures would have made mention of those crazy exploring shipbuilders and the places they went this time, but there were none. Uh, this is getting long, sorry... I often compare such journeys and ship building to modern man's space shuttle building and exploration. Now, surely, the average Joe does not want to colonize Mars or even think of such things, but I have no doubt others out there know how and probably will explore or settle places most of us only tell fantastic stories about. Ok, ok. I'm done. Just don't read this sentence. Thank you.
You are over-thinking it. I don't think the Vikings had some unique urge to explore. Some individuals have that urge and some don't. The Vikings had a unique window of time and place where their technology and living conditions pushed them further than almost any other European explorers had before. They were looking for lands to settle, because their homeland was over-populated. Later. They also went out in search of plunder. Of course they knew that it is warmer to the south and colder in the north. If the wind blows from the north it chills you to the bone but if it blows from the south it brings lovely warm air. If you sit on the south side of your house, the sun will warm you, but the north wall will almost always be in shade. These things are so self evident it's only in the last few decades of indoors screen-watching that we could have lost this intuition. The Vikings who went south found lands that were rich and populous. They were good for plunder, but already settled as much as they coud. The Vikings who went east found river ways where they could reach far into the eurasian continent and establish trade routes with Constantinople and the silk road beyond. The eurasian steppe was too wild and unpredictable for settlement, but they managed to establish fortified trade hubs along the rivers. The Vikings who went west found uninhabited islands where a man could settle and become his own chieftain. This idea should not be underestimated. The Vikings would not have kept going just to search the entire earth. Once they found what they desired: lands to settle, plunder or trade, they established their presence and stayed put, or went back home with all they could carry. Only subsequent ways of explorers would perhaps reach a little further, until they got what they desired. There was never a systematic mapping of the world, or an attempt to establish a global empire or anything like that.
I work at a certain state’s Historical Society (of Kensington Runestone hoax infamy), and recently found a manuscript of a speech given not so long before the runestone was “discovered”. In the speech, the 1899 Historical Society board member claims that Columbus was directly inspired to find the New World by word of Vinland that came from Icelanders. Given that Greenland was christianized, and had clergy assigned to them in Rome, is there any possibility that this actually happened? Are there mentions of the discovery of Vinland, etc. in texts from other areas of Europe in the 13th century? If not, where did they get that crazy story? There was no source cited in the manuscript. On one hand the claim seems typically grandiose of Viking worship in the late 19th century, and the MN Historical Society of that time really can’t be trusted on the topic, but on the other hand it makes sense to me that in the 13th century news of Vinland could have traveled through the church or the walrus tusk trade and influenced people. I don’t even know where to begin to look for an answer to this.
What do you mean by other areas of Europe? Adam of Bremen did mention Vinland in the 11th century, he was German not Norse. Sorry but it's all I can contribute.
L'Anse Aux Meadows is the only pre-Columbian site anywhere in the Americas outside Greenland that has the remnants of an iron forge. It was clearly established by some sort of Europeans. Maybe they were Irish, French, Basque or some other kind of Europeans rather than Norse, but they were clearly Europeans. The alternative is that somehow some Native Americans discovered how to forge iron and then forgot the knowledge and went back to being neolithic.
there was a tar pit new new glascow nova scotia, that caught fire and was seen by the early british and french government explorers for a century around 1550 to 1650. i wonder if it was brunign from 1100? and if so is there a burning tar oit in the sagas. this was huge in 160and the smoke could be seen from the other side of the province from the canso area. does nayone remember a burning tar pit in the sagas?
I can't remember all of the details exactly but there were burrs found at l'anse aux meadows from a plant whose northernmost range is cape cod so with that and the fact that ancient cape cod was a pretty spot on match for the description of vinland puts it pretty solidly into the most likely location.
Fantasy creatures are all over medieval text throughout Europe and they are mostly very similar, you find talk of dogheads and monopods all over the place. The world of medieval europe was one of myths being real in most people's minds because they had no frame of reference through their own experiences. Everyone believed that there were villages with dog headed people twenty or thirty miles away because most people didn't travel and the few that did said they had either seen them or heard of them. Thus it would be more strange if a medieval travel text was missing fantasy creatures than if it includes them.
Supposedly there were some people, I believe in the Mandan or Arickara Native American tribes, who had light colored hair and blue eyes. The theory was proposed, back in the 1970’s at least, that they may have been descended from Viking explorers. This would have been in the upper Mississippi or Missouri River basins iirc.
Has anyone here seen Vinland Saga anime? It's all about this topic, plus the Viking invasion of England, I strongly recommand it if you are interested in Nordic history
I come from the land of the ice and snow. Where there's midnight sun and the hotsprings blow. The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands....
So you don't think the monopods were kangaroos and the Viking actually discovered Australia? 😉 Joking aside, I love you videos. Thank you for sharing your expertise with all off us. 🙇♂️
@@LearnwithKrisVThe Beothuk are the only ones identified with that region at that time, with alleged information of the encounters running down the Native side as well. There are only 3 other groups that it could be; the Miqmaq, the Dorset, or the Inuit. It would be very far south for Inuit, kinda late for Dorset, and too early for the Miqmaq to be in the region.
also, just geographicallly speaking, greenland is north America, at the very least it's part of "greater" north america it might not be part of the "main land" but its definitely North America, and I would even call it main land due to it's size
honestly it's a pretty cool anime but i'm not sure i'd take it as *direct* evidence of what actually happened. it's definitely a good general overview and may possibly confirm some old theories though.
Honestly it’s quite amazing that the vikings were producing and watching anime almost a thousand years ago. I used to believe that genre originated in Japan. Then again, if you consider the fact that Swedish vikings came to North America 150 million years ago, as evidenced by the Kittredge runestone, it does appear more plausible.
To an extent, it sounds like an accurate reporting of the events, rather that a propaganda piece. albeit with the time elapsed between the discovery and recording there is some propaganda. i realise you dislike viking themed movies, but have you seen valhalla rising? it purports to show an arrival in the new world. its a very low budget film but i think mads mikkelsen does a good job - regards markc
Take a look at the Cherokee language. You might maybe find something interesting. I've heard, i dont know for sure, that there is some old norse words in the Cherokee language.
I think you're wrong about the Kensington Rune stone. There's enough geologic evidence to point to it having been in the ground long before Olaf found it.
you should really take a look at Vinland Saga the anime, it's incredible and as far as I am aware, really faithful to history on a lot of it's plot points
Leif Erickson? If you google Vikings in America, Britannica says it's pretty certain they were here 500 years before Columbus, according to archeological discoveries.
@@laywithrain The commenter is, I assume, referring to what Jackson mentions at the start of the video, that vikings in America used to be a sort of fringe theory. I was surprised when he said that it was as recently as the last decade that the pendulum has swung to it being mostly accepted because I was under the impression that the findings in Newfoundland confirmed it, and they were, as Jackson also mentions, made in the 60s.
@@alanywalany6460 The reason that it took longer than you'd think for many people to accept that there had been a brief Norse settlement in the new world could be earlier hoax discoveries. In the early 20th century there were a couple of incidents were someone attempted to prove the sagas true by planting and "discovering" some Norse object somewhere in the U.S. or Canada.
"don't really care or even distinguish between one meaning and the other" Really? And you base that on what exactly? "combination of realistic and unrealistic" You mean like is common in all writing? As tools of telling stories. And to make things more clear. Among other things. They are storytelling devices. Anyone who has ever serious written something, fiction or something based on reality, knows that you simply CANNOT write perfect reality and still make it "a good read". Also, these sagas originate from either previously written down versions OR oral traditions(most likely, both). Both WILL generate some degree of drift, especially if they're translated(even if it's just updating the language to as it is spoken "now" rather than when the original was created). Can you guarantee that those "monopods" are not some sort of incontext slang? Or a failure in transcription or translation? No, you cannot. Hence, judging the veracity of a document based on perceived unrealism, when we have no idea if said unrealism would still be there if someone from the original time of the events read it, or whether they were introduced over time, is just really bad science. Being skeptical is one thing, and usually useful, but denying evidence just because your MODERN interpretation is incapable of dealing with reality just because we fail to understand it, that's far beyond skepticism and way into denialism for the sake of denial.
If you go into it knowing how animes typically are. I think it does a really good job at portraying the culture in the literature. And it's just super awesome.
The Penguin Sagas of Icelanders book has both Vínland Sagas in English translation. See my Amazon “influencer” store under Norse myths and sagas: amazon.com/shop/jacksoncrawford
RIP to whoever they asphyxiated by smoke in the Eiríksstöðum to figure out whether you'd have enough time for a full conversation.
The Saga of Erik the Red mentions a place called Hvitramannaland, which was supposedly near Markland, and was home to a group of people known for wearing white clothes. Markland may be located in what is now Labrador, and the Indigenous people of Labrador--the Innu--historically wore coats made of caribou hides that had been bleached white. I wonder if the saga's description of Hvitramannaland is actually a reference to the Innu and their homeland.
That's an interesting hypothesis
The monopod New England Society of Archery is livid about this....
Columbus:”I found this new land!”
Erik Rauða: “You’re late.”
Columbus never visited North America! 😉
@@mikaeltillenius8751 That only works if you consider the Americas 3 continents, that is Central America (incl. the Caribbean) being separate from North America, or in other words, if by North America you only mean the US and Canada. He did visit places like Honduras and Nicaragua plus many islands in the Caribbean. So in most views, yes, he did visit North America. Just not modern day USA (except the territories of Puerto Rico and USVI) and Canada.
@@weepingscorpion8739 first of all, you're forgetting Mexico is part of north america, second of all the Caribbean is its own subregion, it's not a part of central america
even better, the vinland sagas were well known among northern european seamen during the renaissance, ol' chris never discovered anything, he learned about the new world from a few scandi sailors he crossed paths with in port
@@jonnieuppercut I dunno... have always been taught that North America = US + Canada (+ MX) + Central America + Caribbean + Greenland. Essentially CONCACAF minus Guyana, Suriname, and French Guiana.
This reminds me of reading Beowulf for the first time, and certain paragraphs going "*ding ding* this part is real". Particularly the raid on the Frisians. It accounts for why Beowulf is depicted as a super-swimmer and someone able to kill with his bare hands (he does both against monsters elsewhere, but in the raid it is described as almost within normal human ability, except that he swam all the way home, i.e. he probably swam to his boat).
A big fjord and big tides make me think of the Bay of Fundy.
It could also be the Fjord du Saguenay, which is much closer to western Newfoundland.
I visited the Bay of Fundy a few years ago. Those tides are nuts!
Such a crazy idea, to think the vikings might have established actual colonies in America, would have been even stranger if contact with them was lost with the abandonment of Greenland and the explorers reached canada in the 1600s and find some funky Scandinavians speaking their own North-Germanic Language
It is very possible Greenlander fishermen and hunters had encampments along maritime coasts that are now under water.
Oh, you mean like Iceland? 😂
Omfg that would have been so cool!!
30-100 individuals (men and women) do not take over land. The interesing part of this saga is why nobody went again. Well 1262 Ísland becam a subject of the king of Noregur. The whole idea of theese people at that time was a simple fact. Push for more. I was told at the ag eof about 17. "Ef sverð er of stutt, stígðu skrefi framar" This is why a few famelies managed to have a trade network from Persia, North Africa, Canada, Greenland, Russia, soain Italy, Greece etc etc. My anchestors did not understand the idea of impossible. You just push harder. :-)
Such a small colony is not likely to survive, and if they did, they would soon be assimilated into the local population.
If continuous expeditions had brought in new people over a few generations, then maybe...
Without resources like iron, horses, cattle, sheep, and familiar crops, the settlers would quickly have to abandon their own way of life and adopt the techniques and customs of the locals.
The settlement itself is probably in a place suitable for the familiar way of life but pastures are no use if you don't have any livestock. Forests of timber (one of the most attractive resources for both icelanders and the Greenland settlers) is of no use if you haven't got iron tools to work it with.
One of the last traces of the Greenland colony, some decades after they lost contact, was the corpse of a light-haired man, found all dressed in seal fur like the native Inuit.. The drowned man was equipped with weapons and tools made of bone and walrus tusks. In his belt was the sad remains of an iron knife, sharpened so many times that it was worn down to almost nothing.
The Greenland colony was made up of hundreds of people, and used to be prosperous. They were however dependent on trade with Denmark for essentials like iron and timber.
Trade was interrupted, and when an expedition was sent to reestablish contact with Greenland, the settlement was abandoned.
How many years would you keep waiting for those ships before you seek out the natives and as to join them instead?
Native American mitrecondrial DNA was found in Iceland, dating from that time period.
The newfoundland site was accurately dated via a geomagnetic storm recorded in the trees used to build the house. Nuts, lumber from further south were also found.
The tides in the bay of fundy are the highest in the world, you can't out run them, but you can do whitewater rafting on them, down the road from me.
A tree used in the construction of a building in L'Anse aux Meadows was felled in 1021. The wood contains and retains evidence of a Miyake Event in 993, giving you, Mr Crawford, an excellent tree upon which to hang your hat.
@@seanfaherty not the same DNA.
I'm surprised to hear that it's only in the last decade that the pendulum has swung to vikings in America being mostly accepted, because I was under the impression that the findings in Newfoundland confirmed it in the 60s. How come it took until the last decade?
The Canadian government recognized L’Anse aux Meadows as an archaeological site in the 1960s. I remember learning about in school during the 1960s. I’m not sure who these naysayers who denied the evidence could be. Or it could be it is a myth that mainstream archaeology has rejected the earlier European discovery in favor of the Spanish one until recently in order to discredit the intentions of current archaeologists by outliers.
I think what frustrates folks is, it takes time, sometimes decades, to slowly uncover, then figure out what is going on at archaeology sites from the distance past, as well it should.
Because lots of people refuse to deal with reality. If it's not part of their personal belief, it doesn't exist.
People like to deny certain things for various reasons. I've had more than a handful of conversations with people who just refuse to believe they actually went there lol.
Columbus discovery of America was maybe the single most paradigm-shifting event in human history. It sent the world into a completely different direction and cemented a western European cultural dominance on the world stage for the rest of history until now.
It resulted in a cascade of migration and massive demographic shifts
Erik the red's discovery of America was a parenthesis in history. It did not create any significant outcomes at all. Maybe it could have, maybe the time wasn't right. Maybe it is chansen. (I think not)
Both Erik and Columbus are interesting historical actors, and you may idolize wichewver one you want. But you must admit that Columbus' legacy is orders of magnitude more important to history.
That is the difference.
I think that if Columbus had not found America, someone else would have done it not much later. Western civilization had reached a level of technological maturity and geographical expansiveness, wich makes a discovery of the Americas inevitable. It is not so much the man himself, as the zeitgeist that led to the specific outcome.
There were a couple of hoax findings in the early 20th century when someone tried to prove the sagas true by planting and "discovering" some Norse object. So people who were around back then were probably a little jaded after having followed a couple of these stories that went from exited headlines to fizzling out when the "viking" artefact is 150 years old.
Just a theory about the grapes in Vinland. I was born and bred in Vinland (ie, Newfoundland, Canada assuming that is actually Vinland ) and while we do not have grapes growing, we do a lot of blueberries, especially in late summer and early fall (which we call blueberry season). Perhaps Vinland was just a mistake in naming. They saw blueberries and confused them with grapes? Just a theory.
I’ve seen a theory that due to the warmer climate 1000 years ago there actually were types of grapes in the maritimes.
Or perhaps Vínber (Currants)?
Also there was a "Medieval Warm Period" in the North Atlanic region c. 950 to c. 1250. Maybe that changed plantlife.
Even today I do have grapes in my garden, it's actually warm enough to grow in the warmest southern coastal regions of the Scandinavian Peninsula.
"They saw blueberries and confused them with grapes?"
More likely, it's a mistake in naming while writing them down.
Blueberries can be found all over Sweden and Norway, in HUGE amounts. We literally have foreigners coming here late summers just to make money from picking blueberries, lingonberries and a few other berries(cloudberries, blackberries etc).
Grapes however, has only recently been cultivated in Scandinavia. But they were perfectly well known to vikings from travels to central and southern Europe.
Mixing up blueberries and grapes? Zero chance.
But the possibility of the same word being used for several types, like we today would use "berries"? Big chance.
And as already noted by previous poster, the climate WAS warmer, so it's entirely plausible that grapes DID grow there at the time.
Digs have not found anything conclusive that i know of, but there has been finds suggesting that it is plausible.
@@LearnwithKrisV makes a whole lot of sense!
I don't think Norsemen would have confused grapes for blueberries. Here in the Nordics we have some of the best blueberries in the world and there's A LOT of them growing all over the place.
I also really doubt they didn't know what grapes were, but it's far more likely that they would call grapes blueberries than the other way around.
As someone already mentioned, I think it's even more plausible that there was some old fashioned word that was used for any type of berries or similar fruit (much like how "apple" used to be a generic term for fruit in general), although I have no evidence that this is the case.
Very interesting framing, thanks. The archaeological evidence for the settlements is overwhelming (if you're trained to study it, especially) at this point, but your point about the 'neutral tone' of the descriptions is something I've never considered.
A note on the Monopodes (one footed peoples), I think you're probably right. Many of these strange human-like beings were thought to exist on the fringes and in far off places, regardless of where these places were. Frankish missionaries discussed the possibility of encountering dog-headed people in Scandinavia when that was considered the fringe of civilization, and once Scandinavia was Christianised and more integrated into the Christian European core, they were thought to live further east instead, and Marco Polo mentions them in his travel narrative.
On that note, the fact Marco Polo mentions them also goes to show that travel narratives by the 1200s (around the same time as these Sagas are being written) often included aspects of what people expected to find, even if they never actually saw them. Whether they were relating stories that they heard as if they'd experienced them first hand or merely included things that were expected, there are so often these fantastical elements sprinkled into otherwise grounded narratives, and this is surely amplified when there is a great span of time between the story which took place and the retelling of it.
I think that the dog-headed men is a different bucket of fish than the Monopodes.
Remember, we also have the traditions of the berserkers and the legal concept of outlawry expressed as someone having “the head of a wolf” (caput lupinum). Germanic cultures have a history of using the idea of the wolf to categorize peoples who do not conform with the accepted rules of behaviour. I suspect that the references to the dog-headed men who lived in the less hospitable northern lands were probably misunderstood references to bands of outlaws or of tribes who were considered to be “beyond the pale” by the Lombards and the other tribes that talked about them.
Later references, Marco Polo for instance, were probably using a motif of the past that had become orphaned from its original meaning; but the original references were probably not about a mythological race.
"On that note, the fact Marco Polo mentions them also goes to show that travel narratives by the 1200s (around the same time as these Sagas are being written) often included aspects of what people expected to find, even if they never actually saw them."
Or, we are lacking in context and do not understand what they're referring to. Which might be something entirely and perfectly real and normal.
This is an extremely common phenomenon and problem for anyone trying to translate old texts to modern language(which is something that i have personally worked on doing).
Just in my own lifetime of less than 50 years, there are dozens of words whose meaning have completely changed.
And it's literally a magnitude worse when looking at texts as old as these sagas. We have no ability at all to know when a word is used literally, figuratively or as slang.
@@DneilB007aka, did these men have "dog heads" or "wolf hoods"?
CS Lewis put ( invisible) monopods in Northern Narnia.
In my opinion, one-footed people are probably left 😂
Archeologists has uncovered a nut at L'anse Aux Meadows that grows only further south, around New York.
Also they definitely dated the newfoundland site to 1000 CE via a geomagnetic storm that happened at that time and is recorded in the trees used to build the house.
thaqt nut grows in new brunswick as well. butternut
Don't forget the Maine Penny.
For a moment there I thought some absolute madman had convinced Dr. Jackson to take a peek at the Vinland Saga manga.
We need to get on that
It's good to know there's fellow Vinland Saga Jackson Crawford fans🤝
@@lydiascott5603 Thank God I'm not the only one. I was in the process of rewatching Vinland Saga when I came across this video.
I'm a fan of both the manga and Dr. Jackson. The manga, albeit just a product of popular culture, does a good job in regard of attracting interests from young audience and encourages them to learn more about actual history and culture. There are many history lovers who actually started from either watching shows or playing games before dving into the more "hardcore" stuff like reading research papers or learning a new language just to know the history behind it.
@@yifuyang6188Yeah I think a lot of people became interested in Norse & Greek myth and history due to pop culture. Which is great 👍. The more the merrier!
Ohhhhh, THOSE Vinland Sagas. I thought you meant the other one...
“I have no enemies”
Same here!!!
Max Miller of Tasting History just did a vid in "Viking Funeral Bread". Did you catch it and what did you think?
Hi Dr. Crawford,
I’m a huge fan of your work, and have been for some time. I often listen to your videos while I work - I especially like to revisit your Positive Fatalism video, because the ideas you expand on in it are thematically hefty in the novel I’m writing.
I have a funny request, though. When you are mixing/mastering your videos, could you make them a little louder? I’ve had the issue of not being able to hear you sometimes when I work, even if I put my headphones at maximum volume, because they are relatively quiet.
Thank you for your time
Thank you for your view of the story.
All the best to you.💋
I'm certain that in the last few years I've seen some discussion that there have been remains found, archaeologically, of Norse(Viking) down the US eastern seaboard into Florida. Not settlements, but visitation at least
It's true the pseudohistory stories are a bit dull. They aren't written by really talented fantasy writers, so they tend to just recycle a few themes and steal plot points from Atlantis.
Off-Topic: Jackson, have you ever heard the song 'My Mother Told Me' in Old Norse by Colm McGuinness? I'm wondering about the actual historical evidence that this chant might even have existed in that time period, but I've heard that it came from actual writings. Also, I'm really curious about Colm's pronunciation, regardless of the historical authenticity of the rhyme.
It's from Egill Skallagrímsson saga
@@Herkanyes, I've heard several people perform the English Translation, but the Old Norse one is what interest me. I really like the Colm McGuinness version and I wanted to know if his Old Norse is any good. :)
@@llywyllngryffyn8053 I as a swede, not knowing Norse or icelandic, but who has a intrest in languages. When listen to the song and read the lyrics the pronunciation and the melody (in the voice) sounds very scandinavian. He sings it the way I would sound it. But hey that is just me 😅
If you decide to visit Newfoundland, I suggest July or August for the best weather. It turns rainy in September. I've visited the L'Anse aux Meadows site twice. They have some reproduction buildings at the site that are not historical in construction techniques, along with the actual ruins. There are some private attractions that are better, including the boat Snorri built following a ship found in Denmark.
Like Jackson says the anthropological detail in the sagas reads astoundingly true, the natives were frightened by the Norse cattle and wanted to buy their iron weapons, etc. 🤔
Thank you for the video! Your in a nice location , I like the creek and forest and of course Erik Rödes Saga
This was incredibly interesting! Thanks for the video man!
This was a really sober, nuanced look at the subject. ❤ And so much stuff I didn't know. I'm recommending your amazing books in the acknowledgements section of my current novel. Thanks for all the inspiration, the knowledge, and keeping me on the straight and narrow (as much as you can keep any literary fiction/time travel adventure author on the straight and narrow!). From placid Ohio, I wish you all the best. (tips 1920s bucket hat) ❤
The Bay of Fundy has the greatest differential between high and low tide of anywhere else in the Americas.
I thought it was anywhere in the world?
Very cool video, Crawford. Keep it up.
When I watch the news I see realistic and unrealistic things. Embelishment. Spin. Tinfoil hats. Just like movies "based on actual events." The Sound of Music is a good one. People don't change. We are the same no matter when and where. Great video. Thank you. 😊
What’s your opinion of the Maine Penny? As I understand it, it dates to some time after L’Anse aux Meadows, which has been dated pretty precisely by dendrochronology. You mentioned that travel to North America continued for some time, and if the penny was truly from a Native American site, that would seem to support that.
these one legged beings are mentioned in the irish myths as well. notably in "the takings of ireland"
Why can’t I give this video more than one thumbs up? I have two.
I’ve heard discussion that the settlement at Newfoundland was more of a resting place and not a permanent settlement. Does anyone have more info on that?
It's theorized to be an overwintering place, when transiting between Iceland and south. The summer is too short to make the trip from Iceland to the new areas, so they'd pause at the northern tip of Newfoundland headed in either direction. So summer one would take them to L'Anse aux Meadows, summer two would be exploring south and gathering, and summer three would be a return to Iceland.
The place is pleasant and sheltered enough, but not well protected in the winter. They probably would have chosen a different place to build a settlement. They were making bog iron, so perhaps they stayed there after discovering that as they could make nails to repair their boats.
They made several round trips, but they weren't that profitable for the time spent away. In the decades before and after the visits south they would venture to Labrador to get wood.
@@MarkRose1337thanks for the info but did you mean to say Iceland or Greenland?
It has been suggested that they went to vinland to gather wood, wich is extremely scarce on both Greenland and Iceland.
An expedition would go to vinland and work through the winter, felling trees and laying the logs up to dry. (You cut the trees in the winter because the sap is retracted into the root system, so the logs become lighter and easier to work with tools. Logs can easily be dragged on sleds on the snow when the ground is frozen (well, easier than dragging the logs on soft ground through foliage and undergrowth) the logs are left to dry over the summer, and the bark will come off easier.
The next winter they may have split the logs into planks and worked them in preparation for the journey home in the spring.
Maybe the planks would have been left to dry for another few years before they were light enough to load on to ships.
Harvesting timber is a multi-year process.
We don't have any hard evidence that this is how they did it, but it is the tried and tested way of harvesting timber and preparing it into lumber and firewood. This is the way Scandinavians and others have alternated between seasonal farming and forestry for centuries, and this is how many farmers do it to this day (if they haven't sold off the logging rights to the big logging companies😢, wich can work day and night all year round in their massive all-terrain harvesters)
Where did the norsemen of Greenland head to? Is it mentioned that they sailed back to the old world or did they just disappear?
Ah yes, Vinland, the land of my ancestors.
On Skraelingjar: there's an adjective used in Norwegian that most Norwegian dictionaries seem to have forgotten: skrall (not the noun or verb that have to do with loud noise). I would translate it as "in poor shape" as in a person that is sick or malnourished, or a meal is "skrall" if it is generally lacking, a car is "skrall" if it is about to fall apart. I wonder if the Norse had this word and used it to describe the to them unusual-looking people they found in America?
In modern Icelandic, to skræla means to peel. As in peeling a potato. That would make skrælingi mean someone who peels.
It's also interesting that the description of the places visited indicate a north to south voyage and can relate to the type of land north to south. If it was made up one could have said Vinland was in the north.
I started 1st grade in 1960, and I can remember, even in elementary school, the teachers talking about the Vikings and North America..it was a big deal. I vaguely remember a comic book in the 1960s depicting Vikings and Native Americans...way over the top stuff...but cool.
Louis L'Amour said fishermen/explorers followed flocks of birds and fish schools. Where birds go there's gonna be land, food and fresh water.
The Pogo creature, one legged and hopping, I find as an interesting feature in one of the saga's. A similar description is given in the Irish creation-story mythology of the Dagda and his wanderings around Ireland, happening across the original native inhabitants. When I first read this I was immediately put to mind of the Australian Aboriginals who, it is very well recorded, of having the energy saving stance of perching on one leg, standing still, for hours at a time. Sometimes with the aid of a spear or throwing stick, or perchance, bow and arrows. This always struck me as from a child I would always adopt the same stance when standing still for long periods. Interesting.
I seem to recall reading about a Viking iron pot found in the Connecticut River. That likely only means that it was traded away many times and ended up in Connecticut, but it is still pretty cool. Now if we find a few swords or a burial that far south, that would change things.
That is absolutely amazing if it is true.
Viking age iron pots are insanely rare finds. As far as I know, there are only a handfull found in all of scandinavia. The best one preserved is in Sweden's national History Museum. The pot was in a chest of iron tools. The theory is that the tool chest must have fallen out of a boat crossing a lake. Because the chest was so heavy, it sank deep into the sediment below, wich created an oxygen-free environment. The chest and it's amazing content is on display and you can study the construction of overlapping segments of thin beaten plates held together with rivets.
Weapons and other valuable artifacts are relatively common finds, because they are intentionally buried in graves. Graves are sometimes (not always) anaerobic environments, and they often remain undisturbed for long times.
Tools and household items are rare, even if they would have been more common than weapons. The difference is that they would get used until they were worn out, and then probably get re-purpoused for something else.
Only a lost pot could survive to our time, and it had to be lost in a place where it would be buried in clay or sediment, to shield the thin metal from oxygen.
A river could be such a place, but man, it is unlikely that it'd show up one in Connecticut.
Excellent talk here.
Any of these sagas have anu reference to southern explorations? Like the Azores?
None
None, but there is archeological and genetic evidence. There are cow bones on Madeira that pre date Portuguese settlement and the mice there are of north European origin.
@@danvernier198
Couldn't find any sources about pre-settlement cow bones being found on Madeira but I did find a source which mentions the discovery of two mice skeletons. One of those skeletons were radiocarbon dated to having lived around 901-1036 AD. Also yeah, the current mice population show similarities to those found in Northern Europe
I think it is a great thought exercise to imagine where they would have gone, and I like thinking about the Sagas as a source for motivation or deterrence or else (without skræwlings sp?)I struggle to think of why they would not have continued to discover the entire earth, if only to satisfy a need to explore. With everything else they understood, I also imagine that they sorta suspected that where there was more sun, there was more warmth and life. Even without understanding physics and meteorology as we currently do they might have sensed that as you go south it gets warmer. But, I always snap my reveries back with the thought of the fact that there was trade with other civilizations, so such travels were not secret or uncommon. It would stand to reason that other cultures would have made mention of those crazy exploring shipbuilders and the places they went this time, but there were none.
Uh, this is getting long, sorry...
I often compare such journeys and ship building to modern man's space shuttle building and exploration. Now, surely, the average Joe does not want to colonize Mars or even think of such things, but I have no doubt others out there know how and probably will explore or settle places most of us only tell fantastic stories about. Ok, ok. I'm done.
Just don't read this sentence. Thank you.
You are over-thinking it. I don't think the Vikings had some unique urge to explore. Some individuals have that urge and some don't.
The Vikings had a unique window of time and place where their technology and living conditions pushed them further than almost any other European explorers had before.
They were looking for lands to settle, because their homeland was over-populated. Later. They also went out in search of plunder. Of course they knew that it is warmer to the south and colder in the north. If the wind blows from the north it chills you to the bone but if it blows from the south it brings lovely warm air. If you sit on the south side of your house, the sun will warm you, but the north wall will almost always be in shade. These things are so self evident it's only in the last few decades of indoors screen-watching that we could have lost this intuition. The Vikings who went south found lands that were rich and populous. They were good for plunder, but already settled as much as they coud. The Vikings who went east found river ways where they could reach far into the eurasian continent and establish trade routes with Constantinople and the silk road beyond. The eurasian steppe was too wild and unpredictable for settlement, but they managed to establish fortified trade hubs along the rivers.
The Vikings who went west found uninhabited islands where a man could settle and become his own chieftain. This idea should not be underestimated.
The Vikings would not have kept going just to search the entire earth. Once they found what they desired: lands to settle, plunder or trade, they established their presence and stayed put, or went back home with all they could carry. Only subsequent ways of explorers would perhaps reach a little further, until they got what they desired.
There was never a systematic mapping of the world, or an attempt to establish a global empire or anything like that.
I work at a certain state’s Historical Society (of Kensington Runestone hoax infamy), and recently found a manuscript of a speech given not so long before the runestone was “discovered”. In the speech, the 1899 Historical Society board member claims that Columbus was directly inspired to find the New World by word of Vinland that came from Icelanders.
Given that Greenland was christianized, and had clergy assigned to them in Rome, is there any possibility that this actually happened? Are there mentions of the discovery of Vinland, etc. in texts from other areas of Europe in the 13th century? If not, where did they get that crazy story? There was no source cited in the manuscript.
On one hand the claim seems typically grandiose of Viking worship in the late 19th century, and the MN Historical Society of that time really can’t be trusted on the topic, but on the other hand it makes sense to me that in the 13th century news of Vinland could have traveled through the church or the walrus tusk trade and influenced people. I don’t even know where to begin to look for an answer to this.
What do you mean by other areas of Europe? Adam of Bremen did mention Vinland in the 11th century, he was German not Norse. Sorry but it's all I can contribute.
My favorite Saga is Narls Saga . I sure I didn't spell that right. But I like all that I have read.
So they thought the world was like how atlantis is described?... interesting
DON'T GO THERE!
L'Anse Aux Meadows is the only pre-Columbian site anywhere in the Americas outside Greenland that has the remnants of an iron forge. It was clearly established by some sort of Europeans. Maybe they were Irish, French, Basque or some other kind of Europeans rather than Norse, but they were clearly Europeans. The alternative is that somehow some Native Americans discovered how to forge iron and then forgot the knowledge and went back to being neolithic.
Is there any evidence of these events in the traditions of the people who were living in these places?
Have you read about how Helge Ingstad located the settlements on New Foundland?
It is fascinating to ponder how different the world might have been had the Norse colonized the Americas.
there was a tar pit new new glascow nova scotia, that caught fire and was seen by the early british and french government explorers for a century around 1550 to 1650. i wonder if it was brunign from 1100? and if so is there a burning tar oit in the sagas. this was huge in 160and the smoke could be seen from the other side of the province from the canso area. does nayone remember a burning tar pit in the sagas?
I don’t know why but I’m surprised that CS Lewis didn’t invent those monopod creatures. Also monopod creatures near or at the end of a voyage?
I can't remember all of the details exactly but there were burrs found at l'anse aux meadows from a plant whose northernmost range is cape cod so with that and the fact that ancient cape cod was a pretty spot on match for the description of vinland puts it pretty solidly into the most likely location.
Fantasy creatures are all over medieval text throughout Europe and they are mostly very similar, you find talk of dogheads and monopods all over the place. The world of medieval europe was one of myths being real in most people's minds because they had no frame of reference through their own experiences. Everyone believed that there were villages with dog headed people twenty or thirty miles away because most people didn't travel and the few that did said they had either seen them or heard of them. Thus it would be more strange if a medieval travel text was missing fantasy creatures than if it includes them.
Do you think it is plausible that Vinland could be New York State?
I've posited that in one of my older episodes.
Skål
Supposedly there were some people, I believe in the Mandan or Arickara Native American tribes, who had light colored hair and blue eyes. The theory was proposed, back in the 1970’s at least, that they may have been descended from Viking explorers. This would have been in the upper Mississippi or Missouri River basins iirc.
Let's just hope the audio at these talks is better. 😉
BTW. who was Rurik as a viking? (year 800-900)
Has anyone here seen Vinland Saga anime? It's all about this topic, plus the Viking invasion of England,
I strongly recommand it if you are interested in Nordic history
I come from the land of the ice and snow. Where there's midnight sun and the hotsprings blow. The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands....
My child just learned this as fact in 4th social studies.
I wonder if there are any surviving stories among the native tribes that are about weird, pale men with iron hats and beards.
Does anyone recommend the anime?
So you don't think the monopods were kangaroos and the Viking actually discovered Australia? 😉
Joking aside, I love you videos. Thank you for sharing your expertise with all off us. 🙇♂️
Vin does not mean whine, it means pasture
poor Beothuk people 😢
Indeed though I'm not entirely sure that the natives the Norse encountered in Newfoundland in 1000 CE were Beothuk. Could have been a different tribe.
@@LearnwithKrisVThe Beothuk are the only ones identified with that region at that time, with alleged information of the encounters running down the Native side as well.
There are only 3 other groups that it could be; the Miqmaq, the Dorset, or the Inuit. It would be very far south for Inuit, kinda late for Dorset, and too early for the Miqmaq to be in the region.
Yes!!!!
Fyndið, ég er einmitt að lesa Grænlendinga sögu og glósaði í dag; eyktarstaður = kl:15:15 dagmálstaður = kl:9:00 , haha skemmtilega nördalega þekking... góðir hlutir gerast hægt⭐
I mean if the vikings went to greenland they must have atleast known america, you aint gonna tell me the inuïts at the time didnt know about america.
also, just geographicallly speaking, greenland is north America, at the very least it's part of "greater" north america
it might not be part of the "main land" but its definitely North America, and I would even call it main land due to it's size
honestly it's a pretty cool anime but i'm not sure i'd take it as *direct* evidence of what actually happened. it's definitely a good general overview and may possibly confirm some old theories though.
Honestly it’s quite amazing that the vikings were producing and watching anime almost a thousand years ago. I used to believe that genre originated in Japan.
Then again, if you consider the fact that Swedish vikings came to North America 150 million years ago, as evidenced by the Kittredge runestone, it does appear more plausible.
To an extent, it sounds like an accurate reporting of the events, rather that a propaganda piece. albeit with the time elapsed between the discovery and recording there is some propaganda. i realise you dislike viking themed movies, but have you seen valhalla rising? it purports to show an arrival in the new world. its a very low budget film but i think mads mikkelsen does a good job - regards markc
Milk are a reason to why the Vikings had so big problems with the American Indians that they left Vinland... 😉
Take a look at the Cherokee language. You might maybe find something interesting. I've heard, i dont know for sure, that there is some old norse words in the Cherokee language.
If you talk about Thorfinn I'm sure this vid'd be like a million view:))
I think you're wrong about the Kensington Rune stone. There's enough geologic evidence to point to it having been in the ground long before Olaf found it.
Ah of course, the Kensington Stone that's written using a mix of runes from different eras and uses ninteenth century grammar, such a serious find.
Skrayliingr are innuit or dorset ppl, not native americans, even the descriptions say that, encountered them in labrador (markland)
you should really take a look at Vinland Saga the anime, it's incredible and as far as I am aware, really faithful to history on a lot of it's plot points
Leif Erickson?
If you google Vikings in America, Britannica says it's pretty certain they were here 500 years before Columbus, according to archeological discoveries.
Uhh… yeah?
Yes this is true.
@@laywithrain yep
@@laywithrain The commenter is, I assume, referring to what Jackson mentions at the start of the video, that vikings in America used to be a sort of fringe theory. I was surprised when he said that it was as recently as the last decade that the pendulum has swung to it being mostly accepted because I was under the impression that the findings in Newfoundland confirmed it, and they were, as Jackson also mentions, made in the 60s.
@@alanywalany6460 The reason that it took longer than you'd think for many people to accept that there had been a brief Norse settlement in the new world could be earlier hoax discoveries. In the early 20th century there were a couple of incidents were someone attempted to prove the sagas true by planting and "discovering" some Norse object somewhere in the U.S. or Canada.
Erlic the red Gökturx.
"don't really care or even distinguish between one meaning and the other"
Really? And you base that on what exactly?
"combination of realistic and unrealistic"
You mean like is common in all writing? As tools of telling stories.
And to make things more clear. Among other things.
They are storytelling devices. Anyone who has ever serious written something, fiction or something based on reality, knows that you simply CANNOT write perfect reality and still make it "a good read".
Also, these sagas originate from either previously written down versions OR oral traditions(most likely, both). Both WILL generate some degree of drift, especially if they're translated(even if it's just updating the language to as it is spoken "now" rather than when the original was created).
Can you guarantee that those "monopods" are not some sort of incontext slang? Or a failure in transcription or translation? No, you cannot.
Hence, judging the veracity of a document based on perceived unrealism, when we have no idea if said unrealism would still be there if someone from the original time of the events read it, or whether they were introduced over time, is just really bad science.
Being skeptical is one thing, and usually useful, but denying evidence just because your MODERN interpretation is incapable of dealing with reality just because we fail to understand it, that's far beyond skepticism and way into denialism for the sake of denial.
Newfoundland is pronounced like the word “Understand”. 😊
You should watch the anime of the Vinland saga. It's a pretty good anime
If you go into it knowing how animes typically are. I think it does a really good job at portraying the culture in the literature.
And it's just super awesome.