The 718 GT4/Spyder/4.0 w 6MT is the last new buyable Porsche. Time to go back to basics: ICE only (no electrification), NA, 6MT, RWD, sub 3,000lbs, Analog dials (for God's sake), and regular buttons.
So a Lotus Emira V6 until Lotus goes stupid (currently underway) and switches to only the 4 cyl turbo AMG automatic. I'm in the market for a new fun car and I've already walked into a showroom and sat down in a car I liked the looks of. I put my clutch foot down and...where's the clutch pedal. Out of the car I pop and look at the sales droid and ask "Do you have a manual I can look at?". When the answer is no, I'm out. A hybrid CAN be manual. Honda did it with the CR-Z.
@@jackpalczynski7884 Emira V6 is close enough. Lotus is about to go even stupider with EV only. Who wants a sports car with the soul of a washing machine????!!!!!
Finally, a podcast from two normal Porsche owners/enthusiasts for the people. Appreciate the highly relatable, relevant content and for sharing your experiences, hot takes. Also, the length of the podcasts have been on point. Looking forward to more to come.
Only interested in 6MT, NA, RWD,ICE. Agree with both of you. Love the excitement of 500 HP from the 991.2 GT3T, but it is dangerously quick. The 993 just speaks to me with 272 HP. For long distance driving I found a 991.1 S 6MT recently. 400 HP is plenty. Europe has a totally different view of the world. Here in the United States we view the move to electric as not only giving up the feel of an ICE, but more importantly giving up freedom by having to depend on the electrical grid.
I’ve a 2022 718 S. FOMO got the best of me…I felt like I NEEDED a 911. So I went to Porsche experience center ATL and drove both the 718 GTS & 992.1 911 GTS. Based upon my time…1 hour in each car…the 718 GTS was by far, the better car. I walked away knowing that I did not need a 911 and had all the car I would ever need. Just my POV.
Wonderful conversation... thoughtful and candid. To paraphrase, "looking at the tach as a fine timepiece to capture the experience, not the speed." Beautifully spoken. Thank you, gentlemen.
I was allocated a 2025 GTS Targa and I have a different take. I passed, and instead got a 991.2 Targa. For me, the care was just “too much:” bigger, faster, more complications, more technology and slightly larger, and a lot more $ in a city with too many bad other drivers. I got anxiety just thinking about it vs the big smile i have with the 991.2. On the flip side, too much controversy brought on by people who have not even seen the car live, let alone drive it.
I just read an article in the latest Panorama magazine profiling the new 911 GTS. The author mentioned that the Targa version of the GTS model was closer to the weight of the Macan than to the base 911. Nuff said for me.
@@Boxsteroxthe bloat has finally even come for the Porsche 911. Nothing is sacred! The GT3 is the only purist 911 left. Hopefully even though they’re getting rid of the analog tach for all .2s, they use a version of the 4.2L from the 911 R. Can’t imagine what that would go for on the secondary market.
What's missing in this conversation is that Porsche is a company that wants to make money, and car enthusiasts like us are not their main audience. They still care about us, but they simply can't stop improving their engineering for us. The perfect cars for us to drive legally in the streets have already been released and are now on the used market. Porsche has gone upmarket in the speed department. If we really want a new car that's not dangerous to drive legally in public, we have other car manufacturers to pick from (as much as I hate that fact). I personally just purchased a 996 C4S to scratch that itch. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in the new 911's for something more of a daily driver, but it certainly will not fill the same need.
I can’t recall if I mentioned your point in this podcast or in another video I did about this topic but I agree 100%. Porsche wouldn’t make cars that won’t sell and they know their main audience….and it’s probably not nostalgic, change averse people like us haha!
@@Rennthusiastas far as I can tell the new hybrid is done in taste. And I lean towards “purist”. As long as they aren’t forcing you to buy a hybrid then I don’t see a big issue. This is Porsche revolution though, and it’s always the same reaction right away. But a few years down the line you look back and can pretty much just say “ya, Porsche knew what they were doing”. The water cooled 996, the AWD turbo, PDK transmissions (as in zero or minimal options for a true manual gearbox), being able to sell a car that is basically a “track toy” for around $300k (msrp) and not being able to meet demand! Now I’m not saying the new direction Porsche is going is the right way, I’m just saying that over the last 20 plus years the things I’ve looked down on have in the end won me over (for the most part).
This conversation is spot on. At some point the speed is irrelevant and all the inputs matter most. It’s ego in the stats and competition that drives the market. Sell more cars is the bottom line and the numbers matter… apparently. Even the take rate with PDK tells the story. The people buying the new cars (in most high end brands) don’t seem to want all the things most “enthusiasts” want. I put that in quotes because I know you can be an enthusiasts and drive PDK so don’t throw rotten fruit at me. 😂. Steering feel, brake feel, road feel, shifting your own gears, and SOUND are essential to the experience of driving IMO. Otherwise it’s just an appliance. But what can be done? So many are just concerned with the stats, numbers and having all the tech/ creature comforts. Quite the conundrum.
i just got my 992 T highly spec'd with aerokit buckets etc all the gt3 on budget options i checked off about 2 months ago. I just drove my 981S yesterday first time in like a month and i def think about after all just keeping both. Initially i was going to sell the 981. The main thing i dislike in the 992 is the digital tech, the sensors going off for everything and its just annoying and the non NA engine, its bleh sound. Driving it is a blast but im all for sound when it comes to spirited drivng.
Loved the convo at the 19:00 mark. I had a 951 and took it to the track. I was the “D” group and couldn’t hit an apex if it was drawn on the pavement for me. But I could hit 140 on the straights. I hated it! I’m looking for a 996 ripper to complement my “queeny” 987.2. Twisties for life! Keep the commentary coming!
Completely agree with you guys. I just picked up my 718 GTS 4.0 6MT and while it is very comfortable and has some great modern tech features such as the hill assist holder, etc. it is still very analog. It sits next to my 1971 911E, and to me, the Cayman is a modern version of that car. The new 911 is a very different animal and there is a disconnect with the driving experience in my opinion. Beautiful cars, but they are too big and are “too good” in my opinion. I think we are in a transition era but keep in mind things can change in the future. I was not alive at the time but I would assume in the late 70s-early 90s when Porsche was struggling, there were similar feelings about the future direction of the brand. The EPA and governments are pushing a lot of regulations on automakers, not only around emissions, but it is also very difficult to keep a brand afloat and profitable today. As you guys said, Porsche knows what they are doing and they are going to sell cars. Maybe not to us, but they will sell them. I think the “analog” or “heritage” specs are only going to be available to the extremely wealthy with versions like the 911 ST, Sport Classic, Turbo 50. For the rest of us, we will enjoy the cars that have already been produced and are available on the second hand market or already in our garage.
You're right about the speed aspect. Even my Macan is limited by slow traffic and felony speeding tickets. Whenever I'm out on a country road, I'm reminded that a 911 wouldn't be any faster
The whole “better to ride a slow car fast” Will said, I agree with. I daily a base 981 cayman it’s plenty potent for my uses and if I’m being honest, I’m a pretty decent and experienced driver and I still am unable to find the limits of the car in the twisties. I go out with other 911s and caymans and we have a lot of fun, you buy a Porsche for the handling, and the soul of the car, if you need more power, try improving your driving skills first. A 300hp 3k pound mid engine car is plenty, I really don’t understand everyone’s egos with these cars. Most would not even be able to drive a 911T at anywhere near its actual limits, especially not on public roads
Great discussion I totally agree with your points regarding the 992, I have a manual 991.1 catrera s. It's fantastic and the most car I will ever need and it's fun and a great place to be in.❤❤❤
I was waiting for the 992.2 in HOPES of a manual transmission. WELL, it didn’t so I’m now looking for a 993. Will, I COMPLETELY AGREE with you - I would rather “drive a slow car - FAST”!
Good discussion. Important to remember that the curmudgeonly resistance to change in the Porsche culture is almost as old as Porsche itself. It goes back to the introduction of synchromesh in the 356 transmission. The great thing is that we always have the option to buy an older car that hits our personal sweet spot.
I have a PDK and love it. I was very reluctant but no manual option for a Turbo S, but no regrets. I do have a 993 with a manual if I long for a drive in a manual. I am excited for the 992.2. And personally I like having more power than I need, but I guess that goes to my affection for Turbo's,
The closer I look at newer cars the better somewhat older ones look. There has to be a sweet spot of applied technology that makes sense for an application. A digital screen in place of individual gauges looks cheap to my eye. A course correction is needed as there has not been a new Porsche or BMW that talks to me, no not like Alexa.
Same. I’m convinced that the only reason people accept the current crop of performance cars in general is because they have never driven (or forgotten) sports cars from the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s. It’s been a long slow march toward numbness.
This was a great talk. Thank you both. I have my 2024 911 GTS arriving next month after having ordered it in February. I was going to do the 930 leather package on the interior, which is just beautiful but when I found out I had to select 14-ways or 18-ways with the 930 package, I didn’t check the box because I know how much weight they add too much bloat factor for me. Not into it..went with the 4-ways. Hoping that being careful with the weighty options will retain a light, nimble feeling.
Great conversation. I’m trying to stay open minded about the 992.2 but right now it seems like a weird lateral move at best from a 991.2 unless your only priority is front line speed, and the price premiums are just mind boggling. I think the right move is to wait and see.
A new owner of my first 911 (992.2), so I don't know any better and I am loving the experience. Being in a tech company myself (AI driven surgical robotics), my take is Porsche will (and must) move into the future if they are to survive in a very tough business. Like anything, nostalgia and raw driving experience will lose out to safety, emissions, performance and ultimately revenue. I believe 992.2 is Porsche's entry level digital car platform that in 5-10 years will incorporate more electronics and will eventually bring in AI in some form. There is no stopping this evolution.....my 2 cents
Well, I have a 992.2 on order. Its a base Carrera to avoid the hybrid, although it was tempting to get the S - - happy I didn't. Regardless of the critics, I am so looking forward to my first Porsche.
I was in the market for a second hand 992 C2 manual ,here in EU there are zero to none.. 99.9% are PDK So i went 997 Turbo manual (yeah i know its not 4x2, but still rocks 👌)
I moved from 991.1 pdk to 992 pdk and love the power, speed and features of the upgrade. But with 992.2 the ommission of the tachometer and introduction of hybrid, I feel they have gone too far. I get plenty of soul out of the 992, yet I love the big screen and the features it gives. Also for me the 992 styling is peak 911.
Excellent video/podcast. I agree that newer cars each generation they get better subjectively in terms of power, 0-60 times, comfort, refinement. However, the soul is dwindled from each new iteration presented overtime. The same thing is happening over at BMW. Yes, the latest M5 The CS model is definitely the best performing M5 but step into an E39 or even an E34 and they have something the modern M5’s don’t. Sad and great times we live in.
A car can be too expensive to enjoy . You just don’t want to park it especially parallel park so you drive it and only park at home . No 911s around last year so I bought C8 and M4 manual . No regrets . Both great cars around town , highway or if y want to track .
Will thanks for the video. Here's my take, I own both a 2019 991.2 Carrera T and a modified 1972 911 Carrera T - The difference in 47 years of Porsche engineering magic is incredible, but while the bigger 2019 Carrera T is a fun and awesome car, the smaller more nimble, analog Carrera T is, in many ways, a lot more fun to drive! Why? Because it depends on you - the driver - not the computer controlled - selectable suspension - auto synchronizing - anti-lock features to drive it well and get the most out of it!!! In my dreams one of the best additions to the Porsche line of 911's would be to go back an build a new, smaller 911 - 250/280HP - manual transmission - with some of the newer safety features that once again get and keep THE DRIVER fully involved! You are exactly correct - for the guy that doesn't go to the track regularly - it is MUCH more fun to drive a slow car fast in normal everyday driving , which is how I believe the majority of Porsche drivers use their cars today.
Hey @ronhunt2477 I completely agree with you! As I was saying in the video, I love my ‘72 T for all the things it doesn’t have. You are closer and less isolated to the road. I was teasing myself with maybe getting a 991 T to compliment my Albert Blue car. Nice garage! -Derek
Will I agree with you that it is much more exciting to drive a slo car fast. Tlhe last Porsche I drove like that was a 1983 911 SC manual. No PDK transmission, carbon fiber brakes just good ol' Porche fun in the past.
Porsche is clearly aiming to capture the attention of the new generation, so I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually discontinued the manual transmission. Like any other company, their priority is to make money, even if it means sidelining the older generation. As a current owner of a manual Porsche, I can't imagine driving a PDK unless someone is paying me to race. This is my two cents.
Agree. There's no reason for a road PDK to exist in a street sports car: The race car that you'd be getting paid to drive doesn't have one either. It'll have an automated sequential; a much lighter type of transmission than a PDK.
The further away cars get from driver engagement (i.e. electrification) the more similar they get to one another (brand vs. brand). EV's are OK appliance like commuter cars if you are ok with a disposable, boring product that hopefully is reliable. I think any electrification and additional complexity is a mistake for the 911, they are missing the mark on why we love them and it's sad if they are being forced to do so by government overreach and laws written by those who are chauffeured around (ironic isn't it?). The 718 EV is already a flop, look to Rennlist the largest Porsche community and there was 1 sparsely posted on thread on this entirely new sports car platform - that's a joke and Porsche has to know that this is going to be a huge flop (also had multiple dealers tell me the same, no interest). For the 992.2, I think there will be a manual, it should be on the T (base engine so manual is already compatible), GT3 and the new Turbo (manuals already spotted), and then of course some special editions. Manuals won't be compatible with the S because it will be a detuned version of the GTS. They are testing the waters on the removal of manual - it costs a ton to introduce a second transmission on cars (R&D, manufacturing, testing) and none of the competitors offer it so the bean counters at Porsche corporate don't want it so they can maximize profits - we'll see what wins out in the end.
Had a 992 manual. Sold it. Transmission was good not great. Build quality was subpar from any other 911 I had. Not much interest in the new cars anymore. Too fast. Too easy.
go to any dealer and ask how many manuals they sell per model, even GT3, its way less than 20%...... I like it, but average customer 55-60 years old for a 911, they are not manual drivers.......
Interesting chat. On the point about manual. In my small sample size of folks I know. My dad and my wife know how to drive a manual, but a manual is not in their stable. I have yet to meet a valet that knows how to drive a manual. Free parking up front works for me. Second on the point of the digital tach. The comment I get from everyone who rides in my car is wow that dash is old school. Every one of them prefers a digital display. Folks like what looks like tech. I think Porsche is just pandering to the majority of buyers. And we really are just a small but vocal minority who is increasingly ignored
Driving is about feel more than anything else bar none & the biggest killer of feel is weight…sold my 911 992 Carrera S as suspension was way way to hard for British roads…bought a McLaren 570gt & its night & day better to drive & way more comfortable 🤷♂️…& before anyone says had it 5 months needed a new battery thats it.
At those prices and parts bin addons like the push button start and carryover screens from the Taycan, the 992.2 will be the first 911 in a long time that’ll depreciate the second you drive it off the lot. Hard pass.
Today's 911 lost it's way. Now it's just becoming another programmable appliance that will do all the driving for you. Might as well just get a Prius and call it a day.
My vote is "off a cliff." As a porsche 911 owner, I find myself appreciating naturally aspirated or turbo, and absolutely no hybrid tech. My school of thought is don't try to slowly take away everything we know and love about Porsche 911. Don't take away our key on the left, analog guages, manual transmission, for me the AWD/wide body, and don't go down the unlimited Hp obsession. Make a good-looking car with as much Hp that the engine can naturally produce. I've no problem with pulling out all stops for the race track, but at some point, I think you've just disconnected from what the public wants, and I think we are about there.
Yeah, going 80 in my beetle feels like $#!+ your pants fast but in the 914 a hundred plus stint doesn’t illicit the same sensation, yet 0 to a buck fifty in brain can’t count seconds in a 99 E55 Benz tightens the sphincter to diamond maker status.
I agree that it seems like they have lost their way, but so have Ferrari and Lamborghini, which brings it all back around full circle. This is what we have to deal with and I bet they will still be a waiting list. This is the first time that Porsche St. appeal is approaching Ferrari. All this to say, I’ll keep my 718 spider and order an f8 Rather than any of these hybrid electric cars
u cant stop the march of time. cars get bigger, heavier etc. that being said, i do think the loss of the analog tack and the key were unescasary and absolutely damages the brand. have 2021 C2S and am trading it in this Thursday for a 2024 C2S. got one of the last .1 allocations after i saw the specs of the.2 car. just not for me.
I have an idea. Make a podcast of "investment Porsche 992 GT model buyers". They have made over 8K 992 GT3 models. EIGHT THOUSAND. Compare that to 964 RS, 964 Turbo 3.6 Leichtbau, 993 RS, 993 Turbo S and 993 GT2. They made just a few hundred each. No wonder those hand built cars will always be exclusive and super desirable. And great investments too. 992 is a mass produced car and they ruined the whole GT value thing by building way too many of them. Not to say that takes anything away from the car which is incredible but how do you think that kind of mass produced car is an "investment"? That's just plain stupid and tells how clueless people who buy these as "investments" are. Just enjoy the amazing car and forget about the whole "investment" bubble crap. It's like buying a mass produced Rolex (produced like 1 million units) and think that as an investment. Those cars are now all over the marketplaces with discounts and people paid what... 2x of the new price back in 2021. Something fundamentally wrong about some new Porsche buyers. Many of them aren't even genuine car guys. Just posers. Sorry to say this but it's true.
Manual isn't ever going to be the same in electric vehicle though.. I don't think they have a good replication, people were happy with the Kia's fake electric company but all electric cars are automatic, meaning they do not have a traditional manual transmission with a clutch pedal and gear shift.
Don't become two old men howling at the sun, 992s are amazing and so are all other versions for their own reasons. Using the "cant wring it out" argument has a significant flaw: you havent ever been able to "ring out" any Porsche: Without blurring the whats legal and whats reasonable on a back road. Lets be honest a 996 turbo with 415hp. Properly "wring out" that car and tell me your doing it within legal limits. 😂 Its not possible and never has been.
Respectfully, it sounds to me that you two are simply old guys expressing your fear of the speed, risk, and being handcuffed and taken to jail, by blaming the providers of the fantastic machines available to do the job. It's OK to get old, comfortable and cautious. It's normal. RW
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
The 718 GT4/Spyder/4.0 w 6MT is the last new buyable Porsche. Time to go back to basics: ICE only (no electrification), NA, 6MT, RWD, sub 3,000lbs, Analog dials (for God's sake), and regular buttons.
So a Lotus Emira V6 until Lotus goes stupid (currently underway) and switches to only the 4 cyl turbo AMG automatic. I'm in the market for a new fun car and I've already walked into a showroom and sat down in a car I liked the looks of. I put my clutch foot down and...where's the clutch pedal. Out of the car I pop and look at the sales droid and ask "Do you have a manual I can look at?". When the answer is no, I'm out. A hybrid CAN be manual. Honda did it with the CR-Z.
100000%. 718 4.0 is it.
Sounds like you need a 911 S/T in your life. Happy hunting 😂
Agreed. If I could buy a 2024 718 GTS Based on my spec I would do it today.
@@jackpalczynski7884 Emira V6 is close enough. Lotus is about to go even stupider with EV only. Who wants a sports car with the soul of a washing machine????!!!!!
Finally, a podcast from two normal Porsche owners/enthusiasts for the people. Appreciate the highly relatable, relevant content and for sharing your experiences, hot takes. Also, the length of the podcasts have been on point. Looking forward to more to come.
The more you talk about the 992's the more I appreciate my 991.1 911 Carrera.
718 GTS 4.0 is it. As Harry’s garage said, it’s like a Porsche from 2007 brought bang up to date.
Only interested in 6MT, NA, RWD,ICE. Agree with both of you. Love the excitement of 500 HP from the 991.2 GT3T, but it is dangerously quick. The 993 just speaks to me with 272 HP. For long distance driving I found a 991.1 S 6MT recently. 400 HP is plenty.
Europe has a totally different view of the world. Here in the United States we view the move to electric as not only giving up the feel of an ICE, but more importantly giving up freedom by having to depend on the electrical grid.
I’ve a 2022 718 S. FOMO got the best of me…I felt like I NEEDED a 911. So I went to Porsche experience center ATL and drove both the 718 GTS & 992.1 911 GTS. Based upon my time…1 hour in each car…the 718 GTS was by far, the better car. I walked away knowing that I did not need a 911 and had all the car I would ever need. Just my POV.
ya'll nailed this conversation! hopefully someone from porsche will listen to this. i think this is definitely the sentiment of most enthusiasts!
Unfortunately , Porsche doesn’t care about the enthusiasts. Not at all.
@@tsvetankostov1486yup
Wonderful conversation... thoughtful and candid. To paraphrase, "looking at the tach as a fine timepiece to capture the experience, not the speed." Beautifully spoken. Thank you, gentlemen.
If you pay attention to Porsche’s social media you’ll see that Porsche is losing interest in conversations like this.
I was allocated a 2025 GTS Targa and I have a different take. I passed, and instead got a 991.2 Targa. For me, the care was just “too much:” bigger, faster, more complications, more technology and slightly larger, and a lot more $ in a city with too many bad other drivers. I got anxiety just thinking about it vs the big smile i have with the 991.2. On the flip side, too much controversy brought on by people who have not even seen the car live, let alone drive it.
I just read an article in the latest Panorama magazine profiling the new 911 GTS. The author mentioned that the Targa version of the GTS model was closer to the weight of the Macan than to the base 911. Nuff said for me.
@@Boxsteroxthe bloat has finally even come for the Porsche 911. Nothing is sacred! The GT3 is the only purist 911 left. Hopefully even though they’re getting rid of the analog tach for all .2s, they use a version of the 4.2L from the 911 R. Can’t imagine what that would go for on the secondary market.
What's missing in this conversation is that Porsche is a company that wants to make money, and car enthusiasts like us are not their main audience. They still care about us, but they simply can't stop improving their engineering for us.
The perfect cars for us to drive legally in the streets have already been released and are now on the used market. Porsche has gone upmarket in the speed department. If we really want a new car that's not dangerous to drive legally in public, we have other car manufacturers to pick from (as much as I hate that fact).
I personally just purchased a 996 C4S to scratch that itch. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in the new 911's for something more of a daily driver, but it certainly will not fill the same need.
I can’t recall if I mentioned your point in this podcast or in another video I did about this topic but I agree 100%. Porsche wouldn’t make cars that won’t sell and they know their main audience….and it’s probably not nostalgic, change averse people like us haha!
@@Rennthusiastas far as I can tell the new hybrid is done in taste. And I lean towards “purist”. As long as they aren’t forcing you to buy a hybrid then I don’t see a big issue. This is Porsche revolution though, and it’s always the same reaction right away. But a few years down the line you look back and can pretty much just say “ya, Porsche knew what they were doing”. The water cooled 996, the AWD turbo, PDK transmissions (as in zero or minimal options for a true manual gearbox), being able to sell a car that is basically a “track toy” for around $300k (msrp) and not being able to meet demand!
Now I’m not saying the new direction Porsche is going is the right way, I’m just saying that over the last 20 plus years the things I’ve looked down on have in the end won me over (for the most part).
This conversation is spot on. At some point the speed is irrelevant and all the inputs matter most. It’s ego in the stats and competition that drives the market. Sell more cars is the bottom line and the numbers matter… apparently. Even the take rate with PDK tells the story. The people buying the new cars (in most high end brands) don’t seem to want all the things most “enthusiasts” want. I put that in quotes because I know you can be an enthusiasts and drive PDK so don’t throw rotten fruit at me. 😂. Steering feel, brake feel, road feel, shifting your own gears, and SOUND are essential to the experience of driving IMO. Otherwise it’s just an appliance.
But what can be done? So many are just concerned with the stats, numbers and having all the tech/ creature comforts. Quite the conundrum.
We need a stripped down new 4 cylinder 912.
i just got my 992 T highly spec'd with aerokit buckets etc all the gt3 on budget options i checked off about 2 months ago. I just drove my 981S yesterday first time in like a month and i def think about after all just keeping both. Initially i was going to sell the 981. The main thing i dislike in the 992 is the digital tech, the sensors going off for everything and its just annoying and the non NA engine, its bleh sound. Driving it is a blast but im all for sound when it comes to spirited drivng.
Loved the convo at the 19:00 mark. I had a 951 and took it to the track. I was the “D” group and couldn’t hit an apex if it was drawn on the pavement for me. But I could hit 140 on the straights. I hated it! I’m looking for a 996 ripper to complement my “queeny” 987.2. Twisties for life! Keep the commentary coming!
Completely agree with you guys. I just picked up my 718 GTS 4.0 6MT and while it is very comfortable and has some great modern tech features such as the hill assist holder, etc. it is still very analog. It sits next to my 1971 911E, and to me, the Cayman is a modern version of that car. The new 911 is a very different animal and there is a disconnect with the driving experience in my opinion. Beautiful cars, but they are too big and are “too good” in my opinion. I think we are in a transition era but keep in mind things can change in the future. I was not alive at the time but I would assume in the late 70s-early 90s when Porsche was struggling, there were similar feelings about the future direction of the brand. The EPA and governments are pushing a lot of regulations on automakers, not only around emissions, but it is also very difficult to keep a brand afloat and profitable today. As you guys said, Porsche knows what they are doing and they are going to sell cars. Maybe not to us, but they will sell them. I think the “analog” or “heritage” specs are only going to be available to the extremely wealthy with versions like the 911 ST, Sport Classic, Turbo 50. For the rest of us, we will enjoy the cars that have already been produced and are available on the second hand market or already in our garage.
You're right about the speed aspect. Even my Macan is limited by slow traffic and felony speeding tickets. Whenever I'm out on a country road, I'm reminded that a 911 wouldn't be any faster
The whole “better to ride a slow car fast” Will said, I agree with. I daily a base 981 cayman it’s plenty potent for my uses and if I’m being honest, I’m a pretty decent and experienced driver and I still am unable to find the limits of the car in the twisties. I go out with other 911s and caymans and we have a lot of fun, you buy a Porsche for the handling, and the soul of the car, if you need more power, try improving your driving skills first. A 300hp 3k pound mid engine car is plenty, I really don’t understand everyone’s egos with these cars. Most would not even be able to drive a 911T at anywhere near its actual limits, especially not on public roads
Great discussion I totally agree with your points regarding the 992, I have a manual 991.1 catrera s. It's fantastic and the most car I will ever need and it's fun and a great place to be in.❤❤❤
I was waiting for the 992.2 in HOPES of a manual transmission. WELL, it didn’t so I’m now looking for a 993.
Will, I COMPLETELY AGREE with you - I would rather “drive a slow car - FAST”!
Good discussion. Important to remember that the curmudgeonly resistance to change in the Porsche culture is almost as old as Porsche itself. It goes back to the introduction of synchromesh in the 356 transmission. The great thing is that we always have the option to buy an older car that hits our personal sweet spot.
I have a PDK and love it. I was very reluctant but no manual option for a Turbo S, but no regrets. I do have a 993 with a manual if I long for a drive in a manual. I am excited for the 992.2. And personally I like having more power than I need, but I guess that goes to my affection for Turbo's,
The closer I look at newer cars the better somewhat older ones look. There has to be a sweet spot of applied technology that makes sense for an application. A digital screen in place of individual gauges looks cheap to my eye. A course correction is needed as there has not been a new Porsche or BMW that talks to me, no not like Alexa.
You are right my friend 👍
Couldnt possibly care less about any new porsches.
Same. I’m convinced that the only reason people accept the current crop of performance cars in general is because they have never driven (or forgotten) sports cars from the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s. It’s been a long slow march toward numbness.
This was a great talk. Thank you both. I have my 2024 911 GTS arriving next month after having ordered it in February. I was going to do the 930 leather package on the interior, which is just beautiful but when I found out I had to select 14-ways or 18-ways with the 930 package, I didn’t check the box because I know how much weight they add too much bloat factor for me. Not into it..went with the 4-ways. Hoping that being careful with the weighty options will retain a light, nimble feeling.
>_> What exactly is the weight penalty? You'd probably never notice it in a 3500 lb car.
Great conversation. I’m trying to stay open minded about the 992.2 but right now it seems like a weird lateral move at best from a 991.2 unless your only priority is front line speed, and the price premiums are just mind boggling. I think the right move is to wait and see.
A new owner of my first 911 (992.2), so I don't know any better and I am loving the experience. Being in a tech company myself (AI driven surgical robotics), my take is Porsche will (and must) move into the future if they are to survive in a very tough business. Like anything, nostalgia and raw driving experience will lose out to safety, emissions, performance and ultimately revenue. I believe 992.2 is Porsche's entry level digital car platform that in 5-10 years will incorporate more electronics and will eventually bring in AI in some form. There is no stopping this evolution.....my 2 cents
Well, I have a 992.2 on order. Its a base Carrera to avoid the hybrid, although it was tempting to get the S - - happy I didn't. Regardless of the critics, I am so looking forward to my first Porsche.
I was in the market for a second hand 992 C2 manual ,here in EU there are zero to none.. 99.9% are PDK
So i went 997 Turbo manual (yeah i know its not 4x2, but still rocks 👌)
Can you imagine, no manual?
Say it aint so!!!
Diggin the podcast guys, off to a great start, keep em coming.
$200k = 981BS+First gen NSX+Golf R Mrk 8.5. That is quite a garage!
I moved from 991.1 pdk to 992 pdk and love the power, speed and features of the upgrade. But with 992.2 the ommission of the tachometer and introduction of hybrid, I feel they have gone too far.
I get plenty of soul out of the 992, yet I love the big screen and the features it gives.
Also for me the 992 styling is peak 911.
I have a 2021 Carrera S with a manual. Searched the whole country! No manual, no
Porsche! 6th 911 I have owned.
For me the 993 provides all the performance I need for enjoyable street driving. For track use, I’ll take as much power as my abilities can handle! 😊
Excellent video/podcast. I agree that newer cars each generation they get better subjectively in terms of power, 0-60 times, comfort, refinement. However, the soul is dwindled from each new iteration presented overtime. The same thing is happening over at BMW. Yes, the latest M5 The CS model is definitely the best performing M5 but step into an E39 or even an E34 and they have something the modern M5’s don’t. Sad and great times we live in.
A car can be too expensive to enjoy . You just don’t want to park it especially parallel park so you drive it and only park at home .
No 911s around last year so I bought C8 and M4 manual . No regrets . Both great cars around town , highway or if y want to track .
Will thanks for the video. Here's my take, I own both a 2019 991.2 Carrera T and a modified 1972 911 Carrera T - The difference in 47 years of Porsche engineering magic is incredible, but while the bigger 2019 Carrera T is a fun and awesome car, the smaller more nimble, analog Carrera T is, in many ways, a lot more fun to drive! Why? Because it depends on you - the driver - not the computer controlled - selectable suspension - auto synchronizing - anti-lock features to drive it well and get the most out of it!!! In my dreams one of the best additions to the Porsche line of 911's would be to go back an build a new, smaller 911 - 250/280HP - manual transmission - with some of the newer safety features that once again get and keep THE DRIVER fully involved! You are exactly correct - for the guy that doesn't go to the track regularly - it is MUCH more fun to drive a slow car fast in normal everyday driving , which is how I believe the majority of Porsche drivers use their cars today.
Hey @ronhunt2477 I completely agree with you! As I was saying in the video, I love my ‘72 T for all the things it doesn’t have. You are closer and less isolated to the road. I was teasing myself with maybe getting a 991 T to compliment my Albert Blue car. Nice garage! -Derek
Excellent content Will. Let’s see what the new technology brings and how the market finally reacts 🙌
Are you able to also explain the customer/owner differences between the 1980/90s and present day.
Will I agree with you that it is much more exciting to drive a slo car fast. Tlhe last Porsche I drove like that was a 1983 911 SC manual. No PDK transmission, carbon fiber brakes just good ol' Porche fun in the past.
In minute 34:52, out of curiosity, what navigation app are you using? I'm on the lookout for a good one :)
No chance Porsche doesn’t release a MT 911 as maybe a special edition or some limited form. IMHO of course.
The heaviest version of the new "911" is 3800lbs! It makes the 928 look svelte by comparison.
Miata is always the answer
They are legit cars and enjoyable even though they lack HP
Porsche has already released discussions about why PDK is currently only available for the new 911-H GTS.
as a porsche fan I currently have no interest in the 992.2
Imagine the costs to service this complicated drivetrain. I can’t and won’t. I’ll stick with my 991.1 manual C4S with the 3.8 NA motor.
Porsche is clearly aiming to capture the attention of the new generation, so I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually discontinued the manual transmission. Like any other company, their priority is to make money, even if it means sidelining the older generation. As a current owner of a manual Porsche, I can't imagine driving a PDK unless someone is paying me to race. This is my two cents.
Agree. There's no reason for a road PDK to exist in a street sports car: The race car that you'd be getting paid to drive doesn't have one either. It'll have an automated sequential; a much lighter type of transmission than a PDK.
The further away cars get from driver engagement (i.e. electrification) the more similar they get to one another (brand vs. brand). EV's are OK appliance like commuter cars if you are ok with a disposable, boring product that hopefully is reliable. I think any electrification and additional complexity is a mistake for the 911, they are missing the mark on why we love them and it's sad if they are being forced to do so by government overreach and laws written by those who are chauffeured around (ironic isn't it?). The 718 EV is already a flop, look to Rennlist the largest Porsche community and there was 1 sparsely posted on thread on this entirely new sports car platform - that's a joke and Porsche has to know that this is going to be a huge flop (also had multiple dealers tell me the same, no interest). For the 992.2, I think there will be a manual, it should be on the T (base engine so manual is already compatible), GT3 and the new Turbo (manuals already spotted), and then of course some special editions. Manuals won't be compatible with the S because it will be a detuned version of the GTS. They are testing the waters on the removal of manual - it costs a ton to introduce a second transmission on cars (R&D, manufacturing, testing) and none of the competitors offer it so the bean counters at Porsche corporate don't want it so they can maximize profits - we'll see what wins out in the end.
Imagine an electronic clutch?
Had a 992 manual. Sold it. Transmission was good not great. Build quality was subpar from any other 911 I had. Not much interest in the new cars anymore. Too fast. Too easy.
go to any dealer and ask how many manuals they sell per model, even GT3, its way less than 20%...... I like it, but average customer 55-60 years old for a 911, they are not manual drivers.......
BMW M lost me as client after G80, same will happen with 911
Interesting chat. On the point about manual. In my small sample size of folks I know. My dad and my wife know how to drive a manual, but a manual is not in their stable. I have yet to meet a valet that knows how to drive a manual. Free parking up front works for me.
Second on the point of the digital tach. The comment I get from everyone who rides in my car is wow that dash is old school. Every one of them prefers a digital display. Folks like what looks like tech.
I think Porsche is just pandering to the majority of buyers. And we really are just a small but vocal minority who is increasingly ignored
Driving is about feel more than anything else bar none & the biggest killer of feel is weight…sold my 911 992 Carrera S as suspension was way way to hard for British roads…bought a McLaren 570gt & its night & day better to drive & way more comfortable 🤷♂️…& before anyone says had it 5 months needed a new battery thats it.
At those prices and parts bin addons like the push button start and carryover screens from the Taycan, the 992.2 will be the first 911 in a long time that’ll depreciate the second you drive it off the lot. Hard pass.
Porsche doesn't care about the pissers and moaners
It seems Porsche is adding hp while chipping away at their DNA and soul.
Seems everyone always hates new 911s until 15-20yrs later then everyone has to have one.
Haha exactly
Today's 911 lost it's way. Now it's just becoming another programmable appliance that will do all the driving for you. Might as well just get a Prius and call it a day.
My vote is "off a cliff." As a porsche 911 owner, I find myself appreciating naturally aspirated or turbo, and absolutely no hybrid tech.
My school of thought is don't try to slowly take away everything we know and love about Porsche 911. Don't take away our key on the left, analog guages, manual transmission, for me the AWD/wide body, and don't go down the unlimited Hp obsession. Make a good-looking car with as much Hp that the engine can naturally produce.
I've no problem with pulling out all stops for the race track, but at some point, I think you've just disconnected from what the public wants, and I think we are about there.
Yeah, going 80 in my beetle feels like $#!+ your pants fast but in the 914 a hundred plus stint doesn’t illicit the same sensation, yet 0 to a buck fifty in brain can’t count seconds in a 99 E55 Benz tightens the sphincter to diamond maker status.
I agree that it seems like they have lost their way, but so have Ferrari and Lamborghini, which brings it all back around full circle. This is what we have to deal with and I bet they will still be a waiting list. This is the first time that Porsche St. appeal is approaching Ferrari. All this to say, I’ll keep my 718 spider and order an f8 Rather than any of these hybrid electric cars
u cant stop the march of time. cars get bigger, heavier etc. that being said, i do think the loss of the analog tack and the key were unescasary and absolutely damages the brand. have 2021 C2S and am trading it in this Thursday for a 2024 C2S. got one of the last .1 allocations after i saw the specs of the.2 car. just not for me.
The racetracks and twisty roads aren't getting wider. The speed limits aren't twice what they used to be.
I have an idea. Make a podcast of "investment Porsche 992 GT model buyers".
They have made over 8K 992 GT3 models. EIGHT THOUSAND. Compare that to 964 RS, 964 Turbo 3.6 Leichtbau, 993 RS, 993 Turbo S and 993 GT2. They made just a few hundred each. No wonder those hand built cars will always be exclusive and super desirable. And great investments too.
992 is a mass produced car and they ruined the whole GT value thing by building way too many of them. Not to say that takes anything away from the car which is incredible but how do you think that kind of mass produced car is an "investment"? That's just plain stupid and tells how clueless people who buy these as "investments" are. Just enjoy the amazing car and forget about the whole "investment" bubble crap. It's like buying a mass produced Rolex (produced like 1 million units) and think that as an investment. Those cars are now all over the marketplaces with discounts and people paid what... 2x of the new price back in 2021.
Something fundamentally wrong about some new Porsche buyers. Many of them aren't even genuine car guys. Just posers. Sorry to say this but it's true.
Manual isn't ever going to be the same in electric vehicle though.. I don't think they have a good replication, people were happy with the Kia's fake electric company but all electric cars are automatic, meaning they do not have a traditional manual transmission with a clutch pedal and gear shift.
Too many bells and whistles 😢
Don't become two old men howling at the sun, 992s are amazing and so are all other versions for their own reasons. Using the "cant wring it out" argument has a significant flaw: you havent ever been able to "ring out" any Porsche: Without blurring the whats legal and whats reasonable on a back road. Lets be honest a 996 turbo with 415hp. Properly "wring out" that car and tell me your doing it within legal limits. 😂 Its not possible and never has been.
The S is our last hope at this point, maybe God will intervene and change regulations so Porsche can get away with tripling production on GT products.
Respectfully, it sounds to me that you two are simply old guys expressing your fear of the speed, risk, and being handcuffed and taken to jail, by blaming the providers of the fantastic machines available to do the job.
It's OK to get old, comfortable and cautious. It's normal. RW
Come ride with me in the mountains in my 993. I think you’ll change your mind 😄
By this reasoning you all need to go back to brass vintage cars where 30mph feels like a modern 120mph 😂