I still see and get a lot of questions from people who complain their monitor mixes change for no reason after they've set them (when monitors are from FOH). Probably 9 times out of 10, it's operator error and that is what is discussed in this video. Problems related to the signal path misunderstandings about how the signal flows in a console and/or also dovetailed with that- what certain terms (settings) mean. Or many times, both of those things. So that's what this video discusses. Once people begin to understand the concepts discussed in this video, it's a bit of an eye-opener that leads to better troubleshooting skills overall. Plus, it shortens the learning curve when jumping from one brand console to another. Or from digital to analog or analog digital. Signal flow is still signal flow. As always... likes and subscribes always appreciated. Feel free to share the video link. Patreon: www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio Affiliate Links: Sweetwater Sound Mixers- Analog and Digital Mixers on Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/ZQQ6GR Midas M32 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/xkEBRk Behringer X32 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/DK05Jy Allen-Heath SQ Digital Mixers on Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/B00nM9 Amazon: Mics on Amazon- Shure Mic Store on Amazon: amzn.to/3lLJXtt Supplies on Amazon- Gaffer's Tape on Amazon: amzn.to/40enAMr Items Used to Make This Video- FDUCE SL40 Vocal Dynamic Podcast Microphone on Amazon: amzn.to/408xlf3 Sony ZV1 Camera on Amazon: amzn.to/3z9MHny Canon M50 MkII Camera on Amazon: amzn.to/3z6c8X5 ~~~ Channel Facebook Page: facebook.com/groups/livesoundproduction “As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.” Items purchased thru affiliate links come at no additional cost to viewers, but can earn the channel commissions. ~~~ ~~~ Other Channel Videos- Building an IEM Rig With the Behringer XR18 or Midas MR18: th-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/w-d-xo.html 3 Tips For Aspiring Live Audio Engineers: th-cam.com/video/tEX2Prwfh-g/w-d-xo.html Direct Boxes - What are they? How to use them? Direct Box 101: th-cam.com/video/6iwW5_Ia9Uc/w-d-xo.html 5 Tips for Mixing Live Vocals: th-cam.com/video/oP4sdpkkNhY/w-d-xo.html Building a Concert - Production for Trace Adkins: th-cam.com/video/m2dJr5gR77g/w-d-xo.html My 5 Most Used Adapters for Live Sound: th-cam.com/video/SFzPh3UYAoE/w-d-xo.html Guitar Amp Micing Tips: th-cam.com/video/GBTyFxxNNBE/w-d-xo.html Behringer XR18 Channel Walkthrough: th-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/w-d-xo.html Drum Mixing Tutorial Playlist: th-cam.com/play/PLWtgwSNlxTjMsX8H1K87UcAP17zYSZqsT.html #livesound #behringerx32 #Midas32 #IEM “As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.”
That's right. I always try to hammer on techs learning about signal flow. That knowledge helps people to learn about things like insert points and to look at their own particular brand of mixer, or the mixer they are on that day, and know the questions they need to ask themselves as they trace the signal flow in any particular console.
As a performer, I want to THANK YOU for this! FOH mixers using gains improperly happens A LOT. This is bad when using wedges, it’s way worse on ears. I pray this video goes viral! Love your videos!!!
My problem is from people with electronic drums and pianos. They constantly fiddle with their volume know on there devices, its equivalent to fiddling with the gain knob.
That's true, and frustrating. But at least you know where the problem is coming from. I always try to get them to give me full volume so at least they can only turn down... But that assumes key patches stay relatively equal to what they should be. And that's not always the case. With e-Drums... it can get really frustrating if they have multiple kit sounds they swap back and forth trying to mimic the original song's drums... and doing it poorly... Versus just finding a solid drum sound and rolling with it. And then there's the issue of whether the drummer sends you individual lines from the e-Drums or a mono or stereo mix that you have no individual control over the drum balance. Which is the mix they send was good... then that's fine... But it rarely is even 'acceptable' when that happens. ;)
Hello! Keys player here, that uses multiple patches when playing... (I'm one of those yes, sorry). Last time I was doing line check I warned my sound tech that I had multiple patches and we checked each of them. He was in my monitor telling me which level to adjust on the keyboard so that they were all about equal. I was using a Nord Stage 3 with Organ routed out 1 and 2 (default which I don't prefer), Piano out of 3 and Synth out of 4. It took a few minutes longer but it meant that they had much less work later on. If you are comfortable with having to tell a musician what exactly it is you want, or what problems you are trying to avoid, in my experience they are more than happy to take the time at the start. I also run sound so I am more aware and sensitive of these issues.
I’ve primarily been a Hammond and piano player for the past 50 years. One thing I find with many engineers is understanding dynamics and expression (volume) changes. The B3 has an expression pedal that I use for both effect and dynamics. During vocals and other instruments being featured I often reduce my volume to reduce musical clutter. With the piano I may play lighter during those points and play much more aggressively during a solo. I’ve often had techs ride the faders while I’m trying to play dynamically. Especially a problem if they pull an instrument up during a softer passage and then get slammed during a solo, etc. Just a thought that we may not always be fiddling 😅
Two things that were missed in this great video: #1. The importance of actually having soundcheck! (=gain staging) #2. What happens when your gain staging is set and your keys or guitar player cranks or lower his/her gain (main volume) knob afterwards.... Please include that in another video.
As a monitor engineer I only use post eq, anything else would be a complete nightmare. The key is knowing what a performer needs not as much what they want. That can take a long time to master. High pass filters are your best friend. Something to watch out for is the over use of compression when you are mixing monitors on the same console as FOH, sometimes you have to use little to no compression depending on the performer. Compression can make vocals drop out when the singer digs in which can lead to issues with over singing which can ultimately lead to vocal damage. In that situation as a tech you will get blamed for changing the monitors because the compressor is doing that for you 🤦 Another issue is reverb and other effects. If a vocalist needs reverb in the monitors and this is more important for in-ears, usually reverb is post fader on the sends so if you get "Turn it up itus" through the performance and crank the faders up like crazy the monitors will be dripping with reverb, so it can be advantageous to maybe change the verb send to pre fader, which is not ideal but can save the day. Or if possible use a seperate verb just for the monitors with a pre dae send. The best feature of many digital desks is ability to double Chanel's for key things like a lead vocal, two channels with the same input, one for the FOH and one for the monitors, so things like compression can be used for FOH and the second channel has no compression at all, as well as a different EQ on the strip. If you have the room on the console you can use the second layer for just monitors, so the only single thing that affects the monitors and mains is the channel gain for the most part.
I only use post-EQ for a dedicated monitor console as well. The only question mark with that setting is when monitors are from FOH and there are no dedicated monitor channels in play (like splitting inputs at the FOH desk (or soft-patching to multiple channels). Even then, post-EQ 'can' work, as long as the equipment is up to the task, properly set, AND (importantly) the tech understands the signal chain and doesn't get 'knob happy', constantly playing with EQ, let alone radically playing with it, during the performance.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I have to use post eq for all situations because I need to make the instrument match what the performer needs. Especially things like fiddles. I mix a ton of fiddles and Celtic instruments for the big Celtic Colours Festival here in Nova Scotia. We are up to our eyeballs in fiddles around here 😱😉
That is a great feature. About the only caveat I'd add is if someone cranks their guitar amp WAY up midway in the set, and everybody suddenly is complaining there's too much guitar in the monitors (except the guitar player probably ;) ), then just resetting the gain to it's initial meter reading brings everything back to where it was originally (as far as volume goes) without doing anything else. Re-gain doesn't necessarily work for that scenario I don't think. I suspect a lot of the problem many people run into with changing monitors is inexperienced techs not accepting the natural dynamics of the music and constantly chasing the meter for a 'perfect' reading at all times and all songs. Although, honestly, I'm not sure they can even explain why they were messing with the gain sometimes.
We had an issue with feedback from my vocal mic. I use an autotune pedal which turns out also tries to improve the sound level and dynamics. It will listen to 30 seconds of singing and make changes accordingly. However. Stage wash is also considered by the pedal so it would increase and increase the levels. I thought it would make things easier but sadly no, it turned out a bit if s nightmare.
I get monitor changes occasionally that aren't related to these. I rarely touch gains and that is usually on a musician change on a mic to bring the input level to what it should be - even then I understand that it may change monitors and streaming. I use post fader generally only on channel reductions for the stream mix where the mix tech won't be able to adjust the individual feeds in the group (our current streaming solution doesn't have enough channels in the pipeline to the streaming console to send everything to it). To give an example of a monitor change, yesterday morning at church was just fine. The mix was the same as usual. When I came to rehearsal yesterday evening and called up the program, our winds told me that the piano was suddenly too loud in the orchestra monitor. Sure enough, it was too loud. I turned it down, but I have to wonder if I will have to turn it back up at some point. No one messes with the amps. The program was the same one that I always used and the levels going to that monitor set haven't changed in months. I don't have a clue what changed to make the piano too loud in the monitors. The Earthworks mics I have in the piano are incredibly consistent and I didn't notice a difference in the mains. I do occasionally get a vocalist change who will tell me that they can't hear something in the monitor. I nudge it up and they often say, "No, that's too much." I nudge it back down to where it was and they say, "Perfect." What I've learned in situations like this is that they could hear the thing they needed to hear all along, but didn't know what they were hearing. They needed the nudge up to train their ears to hear it in the monitor mix.
if I need more gain, ik use the makeup gain from the compressor. if you don't need compression on that channel, just set the threshold to 0 or above. if routed correctly compression isnt send to the monitors.
I recently purchased the Mackie proFx12v3 mixer with a built in audio interface. This unit does not have a button or switch for pre or post faders, pre or post monitor sends, etc. Without that how can I arrange the signal flow in that order on this analog mixer?
Looks like the ProFX12v3 just has fixed sends like I mentioned in the video was a possibility for some mixers. But, the mon send is labeled on the console and it IS pre-fader like it should be. The other send is the FX Send and that will be Post-Fader. Just two sends in total on the console. Not much room for error there... You just have the 1 mon send and need to make sure to use that Aux 1/Mon 1 output for your mons. The ProFx16v3 and larger versions have 2 fixed monitor sends (already set as pre-fader with no way to change that so those are dedicated monitor sends... so you should always use those first when connecting monitors)... and then a 3rd send that has a button on each channel (like the analog console I showed in the video pressing the pre/post button) where you could select pre/post on each channel for that 3rd send. And then finally a 4th send that is a dedicated FX Send so that should be set as a Post Fader send by default for that reason. Not that someone can't have a use for a pre-fader FX send, but it's not typical and not something a console would have if it's trying to keep things simple and be a fixed setup for a normal configuration.
@@stephentyler4352 No... you can have multiple wedges. If the wedges are powered you can connect as many as you want. If they are not powered, then you're limited by how many your amp can run (which is probably between 2-4 per channel depending on the impedance of the wedges, and the minimum impedance of the amp's channel(s)... which is probably either going to be 2 Ohm or 4 Ohm amp). But what one monitor send does mean is that you can only have one monitor MIX. Multiple monitors are not an issue, but everyone hearing the same thing is the limiting factor. Just 1 monitor mx. The lead singer can't have a different mix compared to what the drummer wants for example.
Thank you for your clarity on this subject, Alan. You are always steadfast in giving just the right advice. I am grateful that you are out here doing God’s work. I greatly appreciate you. Happy Easter!
Feedback can be avoided if the musician understands the sound system. no matter how good the engineer is, no matter how complicated the equalizer is. if the singer attaches the mic to the speaker it will still get feedback. To get a good sound, requires the cooperation of both parties. Greetings from Indonesia
It's the kind of thing that experience helps to deal with... Experience to recognize you might be getting sandbagged, and experience to understand that being a little conservative on the gain because of that possibility is perfectly fine. Let alone just asking "Is that how you're going to hit that snare/is that how loud you sing when the band is playing?" and see if that changes anything.
@@MonteD1 You got that right. Experienced musicians know if they want their monitors to sound like they want them, they better play like they will really be playing. Let alone give FOH something so that their starting song will be starting from a good baseline. Inexperienced musicians are many times either timid during the soundcheck, or mistakenly think they can game the sound system crew to make them louder.
I play in a band and have to run the sound and I’ve found most people 1. Don’t know how to sound check because they don’t know what you’re looking for or tying to accomplish. 2. Are insecure about making a lot of sound by themselves. I see this a lot with singers. Good communication and gentle instruction helps with this. A lot of sound guys are abrupt and seem to be mad about everything and everyone (Not saying that you are, but it has been my experience). That energy plus a performer’s insecurity will result in a bad sound check. The people I work with are bad at sound checks and I’ve explained over and over what is needed for a good sound check. I give them the same gentle explanation every time. It’s crazy, but here we are. It does result in a better sound check.
Hi, what speakers (2 tops 1 sub) do you recommend for small/medium gigs? 20-100 people, restaurants and bars. I have been looking at Yamaha Dbr12, dxr12, ev zlx, ev elx, hk sonar... Which looks better for the price to you, or which else can you recommend? Thank you! Great videos
I don't really know anything about the HK Sonar stuff. It would be hard to go wrong with the Yamaha DXR, but it might be overkill depending on what you're doing. You might put Turbosound on the radar too.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Im doing a 5 person band, for various genres (latin, pop, light rock, balads, etc), for small gigs, restaurants, bars, houses, medium weddings If I need something for a bigger event usually it is covered by the venue I think, but I'd still like headroom and buyinh a decent, quality, reliable system (also, cheap lol) I have an x18 I have a turbosound iq12, but buying a second one would be almost as expensive as buying two dbr12's, so I figure it makes the most sense to buy two speakers
@@dannymusicdr If you already have the IQ12, I think I'd lean toward getting another one. Those are pretty solid, and although it costs as much as the dbr's, you're really only spending the same either way but one way you end up with a pair of IQ12s. ...Unless you're using the IQ for a monitor currently and would still need to get a monitor if you moved it to FOH duty along with buying a new IQ12 for the house. In which case that changes things... Of what you listed, I'd lean toward the Yamaha DXR just because you can't really go wrong there. But the EV's are good too. I just have no idea about the HK Sonar cabs so can't really speak about them at all.
Yes thats a factor, I'd have no monitor for the band anyways (even though, we all use in ears, but in case I need a side mix for another room or I add more temporary musicians for a gig I would need a stage monitor anyways) but, neither is a bad option In any case, is there another speaker you would recommend? Are the Dbrs too inferior to the dxrs? PD: Thanks for answering :)
I'd like to report on the current status of the Beta and how it's working, or not... but nobody has said anything. I'm starting to wonder if there's an NDA or something.
That is true to a point. Once there's a monitor console involved, the FOH tech is off the hook. But, for situations where people are doing mons from FOH, and where these problems arise, that would imply that nobody involved understands things to the point that getting a monitor console, without the knowledge in the video, would actually fix anything. A monitor engineer would need be inserted into the equation, and it's possible they would even be less experienced considering the circumstances. Especially if we're talking something like a church installed sound system and volunteers. Or else the band would take over their own mixes using tablets or whatever for control. But whoever gets the ultimate control, still needs to know to leave the gain alone or use something like Re-Gain (and know WHEN to use it). They still need to set the gain initially, overall, for the mixes. And things like channel EQ pre or post still apply too. Obviously, for a monitor console you normally want the channel monitor send tapped post EQ... But the people in control of the mixes (be it a monitor engineer or a band with tablets) needs to know if the singer re-EQ's the kick drum for their own ears, the drummer's kick drum sound just changed in the drummer's mix. So it's not exactly an issue of being cheap or not... Knowledge and understanding of signal flow is still required.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio the way we do our live show when it's just one of us (sound engineer) we us 2 sq5 the boh sq allows the band to use the phone app to adjust their lvls at any moment and eliminates the need for a boh engineer and a TalkBack mic on stage if there's something they need I can switch over to the boh sq tablet and adjust what I need with out leaving the foh post. The biggest issue we run into are the younger bands that don't understand how to place monitors 😞 for the least feedback and they get mad when you try to help them understand
But even that doesn't avoid the problem...unless they have their own dedicated monitor console and a split. If monitors are from FOH and the FOH tech is changing the gains, chasing some 'perfect' gain setting or mixing on the gain knobs with the faders all lined up perfectly razor straight (begging the question: Why even have faders if they are supposed to be razor straight?), then it's still changing their mixes, even though they set their own mixes to begin with. And if the monitor sends are configured wrong on the console and set post fader, then that will change their mixes too, even if they have their own control over the mixes. They're still setting their mix based on the house gains at soundcheck. If those gains "go into motion" during the set, then their mixers "go into motion" too. Even though nobody in the bad touched anything and thought they had control of their mixes. Of course in that case, they might even be more confused because they KNOW they didn't touch their mix... yet it changed. Having their own control over the mixes only works 100% when FOH is following proper protocols as far as gains and signal flow/routing/pick points and knowledge of what does and does not impact monitor mixes. The musicians' control over their own mixes still relies on FOH not stepping on their mixes by changing things that still impact their mixes.
It's been my experience that a lot of studio engineers making their first forays into live mixing have plenty of problems. They're used to 'breaking' rules that have no real consequences in the studio. They usually end up working slow, and generally with plenty of feedback problems. They're not used to what a live sound system should/can sound like... system tuning is questionable at best. A severe lack of understanding about system processing. And simply not used to combat audio conditions where there's no time to experiment and where experimenting without understanding the fundamentals of live audio, can lead to trouble... quickly. While the same can apply going the other way, most of the fundamentals a live audio engineer brings to the studio doesn't really hurt anything in the studio. They might not be as initially creative, and more conservative overall on their first foray into the studio. But they can also be quicker, not used to having time to try things over and over... like multiple mic placements, multiple mic types, or EQ decisions and experiments. And a better grasp on what 'just works'. But with experience, both can learn the nuances that make the two similar seeming job descriptions much more different than they might appear on the surface.
Yes, but then you'd have those available anyway. Plus, for IEMs, they're like not used at all or only minimally if the musicians want something specific in their in-ear response. Keep in mind we're only talking here about EQ trade-aways and compromises when you're running monitors from FOH. When you've got a dedicated monitor console you have more flexibility because nothing you do on the monitor console has any bearing on FOH sound (or vice versa). Especially for IEMs. Obviously, live wedges can spill over into the house just from stage volume... but that's not exactly the same as needing to do some to a channel EQ for the house and it changing the signal in the monitors that the musicians like as-is. If you absolutely do need to do something channel specific for a musician and their mon mix, then you have to weigh the trade-off of just setting the mon send on that channel for post-EQ and living with that change in FOH and pretty much leaving it like the musician likes for monitors (or at least finding a compromise you both can live with), versus splitting that channel into 2 channels on the FOH console and making one the house feed channel and the other the dedicated monitor feed channel. That second, cloned channel, can now do whatever you need for monitors for that channel without any impact on FOH... or vice versa. So, you can have options... but depending on how many channels the FOH console has, you're potentially limited and not able to split EVERY channel. But maybe you have enough to split the important one(s) if requested/needed to make everyone happy, yet still get the FOH mix you want. A lot of this also goes back to just understanding the signal flow and realizing what changes impact monitors and what ones don't. What settings do, what they do not do. The easiest trade-off might just be mixing FOH more conservatively than you'd like when mons are from FOH. Realizing that might not be the time to make big EQ changes just to hear what they do. Even if you can do them so the crowd doesn't really notice the experimenting, the musicians surely will notice in their IEMs. Or if those changes lead to feedback in the wedges too. At that point, everyone notices that...
I still see and get a lot of questions from people who complain their monitor mixes change for no reason after they've set them (when monitors are from FOH). Probably 9 times out of 10, it's operator error and that is what is discussed in this video. Problems related to the signal path misunderstandings about how the signal flows in a console and/or also dovetailed with that- what certain terms (settings) mean. Or many times, both of those things. So that's what this video discusses.
Once people begin to understand the concepts discussed in this video, it's a bit of an eye-opener that leads to better troubleshooting skills overall. Plus, it shortens the learning curve when jumping from one brand console to another. Or from digital to analog or analog digital. Signal flow is still signal flow.
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A much-needed video. Something else to watch out for: Pre Fader or eveb Pre-EQ are often Post Compression. Usually not good for monitors.
That's right. I always try to hammer on techs learning about signal flow. That knowledge helps people to learn about things like insert points and to look at their own particular brand of mixer, or the mixer they are on that day, and know the questions they need to ask themselves as they trace the signal flow in any particular console.
As a performer, I want to THANK YOU for this! FOH mixers using gains improperly happens A LOT. This is bad when using wedges, it’s way worse on ears.
I pray this video goes viral!
Love your videos!!!
Thank you!
My problem is from people with electronic drums and pianos. They constantly fiddle with their volume know on there devices, its equivalent to fiddling with the gain knob.
That's true, and frustrating. But at least you know where the problem is coming from. I always try to get them to give me full volume so at least they can only turn down... But that assumes key patches stay relatively equal to what they should be. And that's not always the case.
With e-Drums... it can get really frustrating if they have multiple kit sounds they swap back and forth trying to mimic the original song's drums... and doing it poorly... Versus just finding a solid drum sound and rolling with it. And then there's the issue of whether the drummer sends you individual lines from the e-Drums or a mono or stereo mix that you have no individual control over the drum balance. Which is the mix they send was good... then that's fine... But it rarely is even 'acceptable' when that happens. ;)
Hello! Keys player here, that uses multiple patches when playing... (I'm one of those yes, sorry).
Last time I was doing line check I warned my sound tech that I had multiple patches and we checked each of them. He was in my monitor telling me which level to adjust on the keyboard so that they were all about equal. I was using a Nord Stage 3 with Organ routed out 1 and 2 (default which I don't prefer), Piano out of 3 and Synth out of 4. It took a few minutes longer but it meant that they had much less work later on.
If you are comfortable with having to tell a musician what exactly it is you want, or what problems you are trying to avoid, in my experience they are more than happy to take the time at the start.
I also run sound so I am more aware and sensitive of these issues.
I’ve primarily been a Hammond and piano player for the past 50 years. One thing I find with many engineers is understanding dynamics and expression (volume) changes. The B3 has an expression pedal that I use for both effect and dynamics. During vocals and other instruments being featured I often reduce my volume to reduce musical clutter. With the piano I may play lighter during those points and play much more aggressively during a solo. I’ve often had techs ride the faders while I’m trying to play dynamically. Especially a problem if they pull an instrument up during a softer passage and then get slammed during a solo, etc. Just a thought that we may not always be fiddling 😅
Two things that were missed in this great video:
#1. The importance of actually having soundcheck! (=gain staging)
#2. What happens when your gain staging is set and your keys or guitar player cranks or lower his/her gain (main volume) knob afterwards....
Please include that in another video.
Thx Alan. Great instruction for monitor troubleshooting. You have helped our bands sound so much with your videos.
Great to hear! Always nice to hear the videos are helping!
As a monitor engineer I only use post eq, anything else would be a complete nightmare. The key is knowing what a performer needs not as much what they want. That can take a long time to master. High pass filters are your best friend. Something to watch out for is the over use of compression when you are mixing monitors on the same console as FOH, sometimes you have to use little to no compression depending on the performer. Compression can make vocals drop out when the singer digs in which can lead to issues with over singing which can ultimately lead to vocal damage. In that situation as a tech you will get blamed for changing the monitors because the compressor is doing that for you 🤦 Another issue is reverb and other effects. If a vocalist needs reverb in the monitors and this is more important for in-ears, usually reverb is post fader on the sends so if you get "Turn it up itus" through the performance and crank the faders up like crazy the monitors will be dripping with reverb, so it can be advantageous to maybe change the verb send to pre fader, which is not ideal but can save the day. Or if possible use a seperate verb just for the monitors with a pre dae send. The best feature of many digital desks is ability to double Chanel's for key things like a lead vocal, two channels with the same input, one for the FOH and one for the monitors, so things like compression can be used for FOH and the second channel has no compression at all, as well as a different EQ on the strip. If you have the room on the console you can use the second layer for just monitors, so the only single thing that affects the monitors and mains is the channel gain for the most part.
I only use post-EQ for a dedicated monitor console as well. The only question mark with that setting is when monitors are from FOH and there are no dedicated monitor channels in play (like splitting inputs at the FOH desk (or soft-patching to multiple channels).
Even then, post-EQ 'can' work, as long as the equipment is up to the task, properly set, AND (importantly) the tech understands the signal chain and doesn't get 'knob happy', constantly playing with EQ, let alone radically playing with it, during the performance.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I have to use post eq for all situations because I need to make the instrument match what the performer needs. Especially things like fiddles. I mix a ton of fiddles and Celtic instruments for the big Celtic Colours Festival here in Nova Scotia. We are up to our eyeballs in fiddles around here 😱😉
Very clear explanation with good pictures, thank you very much, Alan!
Thanks for watching and commenting. Much appreciated! :)
Mixing Station has a ‘re-gain’ feature that will keep selected gains in feeds from a channel in balance, if you NEED to change the Channel input gain.
That is a great feature. About the only caveat I'd add is if someone cranks their guitar amp WAY up midway in the set, and everybody suddenly is complaining there's too much guitar in the monitors (except the guitar player probably ;) ), then just resetting the gain to it's initial meter reading brings everything back to where it was originally (as far as volume goes) without doing anything else. Re-gain doesn't necessarily work for that scenario I don't think.
I suspect a lot of the problem many people run into with changing monitors is inexperienced techs not accepting the natural dynamics of the music and constantly chasing the meter for a 'perfect' reading at all times and all songs. Although, honestly, I'm not sure they can even explain why they were messing with the gain sometimes.
Mehr davon
Bitte!
Das war unendlich fantastisch
Danke, Froids
Thank you!
We can say compressor and make up gain change the send level to all sends
Thanks for your video 👍👍
We had an issue with feedback from my vocal mic. I use an autotune pedal which turns out also tries to improve the sound level and dynamics. It will listen to 30 seconds of singing and make changes accordingly. However. Stage wash is also considered by the pedal so it would increase and increase the levels. I thought it would make things easier but sadly no, it turned out a bit if s nightmare.
I could see the potential for problems there. Glad you got it sorted out.
I get monitor changes occasionally that aren't related to these. I rarely touch gains and that is usually on a musician change on a mic to bring the input level to what it should be - even then I understand that it may change monitors and streaming. I use post fader generally only on channel reductions for the stream mix where the mix tech won't be able to adjust the individual feeds in the group (our current streaming solution doesn't have enough channels in the pipeline to the streaming console to send everything to it).
To give an example of a monitor change, yesterday morning at church was just fine. The mix was the same as usual. When I came to rehearsal yesterday evening and called up the program, our winds told me that the piano was suddenly too loud in the orchestra monitor. Sure enough, it was too loud. I turned it down, but I have to wonder if I will have to turn it back up at some point. No one messes with the amps. The program was the same one that I always used and the levels going to that monitor set haven't changed in months. I don't have a clue what changed to make the piano too loud in the monitors. The Earthworks mics I have in the piano are incredibly consistent and I didn't notice a difference in the mains.
I do occasionally get a vocalist change who will tell me that they can't hear something in the monitor. I nudge it up and they often say, "No, that's too much." I nudge it back down to where it was and they say, "Perfect." What I've learned in situations like this is that they could hear the thing they needed to hear all along, but didn't know what they were hearing. They needed the nudge up to train their ears to hear it in the monitor mix.
if I need more gain, ik use the makeup gain from the compressor. if you don't need compression on that channel, just set the threshold to 0 or above. if routed correctly compression isnt send to the monitors.
Hey Al!
Hello Curry! Happy Easter!
Happy Easterrrrrssss Al.
Turn it up!!!😂🐰🐣🐇
Happy Easter!!
I need to find the Ozzy Easter Bunny photo to post! :)
Yesss!!
I recently purchased the Mackie proFx12v3 mixer with a built in audio interface. This unit does not have a button or switch for pre or post faders, pre or post monitor sends, etc. Without that how can I arrange the signal flow in that order on this analog mixer?
Looks like the ProFX12v3 just has fixed sends like I mentioned in the video was a possibility for some mixers. But, the mon send is labeled on the console and it IS pre-fader like it should be.
The other send is the FX Send and that will be Post-Fader.
Just two sends in total on the console.
Not much room for error there... You just have the 1 mon send and need to make sure to use that Aux 1/Mon 1 output for your mons.
The ProFx16v3 and larger versions have 2 fixed monitor sends (already set as pre-fader with no way to change that so those are dedicated monitor sends... so you should always use those first when connecting monitors)... and then a 3rd send that has a button on each channel (like the analog console I showed in the video pressing the pre/post button) where you could select pre/post on each channel for that 3rd send.
And then finally a 4th send that is a dedicated FX Send so that should be set as a Post Fader send by default for that reason. Not that someone can't have a use for a pre-fader FX send, but it's not typical and not something a console would have if it's trying to keep things simple and be a fixed setup for a normal configuration.
Since their is only one mon send does that mean that only one wedge can be hooked up at a time using this system?
@@stephentyler4352 No... you can have multiple wedges. If the wedges are powered you can connect as many as you want. If they are not powered, then you're limited by how many your amp can run (which is probably between 2-4 per channel depending on the impedance of the wedges, and the minimum impedance of the amp's channel(s)... which is probably either going to be 2 Ohm or 4 Ohm amp).
But what one monitor send does mean is that you can only have one monitor MIX. Multiple monitors are not an issue, but everyone hearing the same thing is the limiting factor. Just 1 monitor mx. The lead singer can't have a different mix compared to what the drummer wants for example.
Thank you for your clarity on this subject, Alan. You are always steadfast in giving just the right advice. I am grateful that you are out here doing God’s work. I greatly appreciate you. Happy Easter!
@@stephentyler4352 Thank you! :)
Feedback can be avoided if the musician understands the sound system. no matter how good the engineer is, no matter how complicated the equalizer is. if the singer attaches the mic to the speaker it will still get feedback. To get a good sound, requires the cooperation of both parties. Greetings from Indonesia
Fantastic info!
Thanks!
Great video
Note to Musicians: Don't sandbag during soundcheck.
It's the kind of thing that experience helps to deal with... Experience to recognize you might be getting sandbagged, and experience to understand that being a little conservative on the gain because of that possibility is perfectly fine. Let alone just asking "Is that how you're going to hit that snare/is that how loud you sing when the band is playing?" and see if that changes anything.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio also, generally, the more experienced musicians, the less they do it. Smaller shows and festivals are where it happens the most.
@@MonteD1 You got that right. Experienced musicians know if they want their monitors to sound like they want them, they better play like they will really be playing. Let alone give FOH something so that their starting song will be starting from a good baseline.
Inexperienced musicians are many times either timid during the soundcheck, or mistakenly think they can game the sound system crew to make them louder.
I play in a band and have to run the sound and I’ve found most people 1. Don’t know how to sound check because they don’t know what you’re looking for or tying to accomplish. 2. Are insecure about making a lot of sound by themselves. I see this a lot with singers.
Good communication and gentle instruction helps with this. A lot of sound guys are abrupt and seem to be mad about everything and everyone (Not saying that you are, but it has been my experience). That energy plus a performer’s insecurity will result in a bad sound check.
The people I work with are bad at sound checks and I’ve explained over and over what is needed for a good sound check. I give them the same gentle explanation every time. It’s crazy, but here we are. It does result in a better sound check.
Hi, what speakers (2 tops 1 sub) do you recommend for small/medium gigs? 20-100 people, restaurants and bars. I have been looking at Yamaha Dbr12, dxr12, ev zlx, ev elx, hk sonar... Which looks better for the price to you, or which else can you recommend? Thank you!
Great videos
What kind of band/music?
I don't really know anything about the HK Sonar stuff. It would be hard to go wrong with the Yamaha DXR, but it might be overkill depending on what you're doing. You might put Turbosound on the radar too.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Im doing a 5 person band, for various genres (latin, pop, light rock, balads, etc), for small gigs, restaurants, bars, houses, medium weddings
If I need something for a bigger event usually it is covered by the venue I think, but I'd still like headroom and buyinh a decent, quality, reliable system (also, cheap lol)
I have an x18
I have a turbosound iq12, but buying a second one would be almost as expensive as buying two dbr12's, so I figure it makes the most sense to buy two speakers
@@dannymusicdr If you already have the IQ12, I think I'd lean toward getting another one. Those are pretty solid, and although it costs as much as the dbr's, you're really only spending the same either way but one way you end up with a pair of IQ12s.
...Unless you're using the IQ for a monitor currently and would still need to get a monitor if you moved it to FOH duty along with buying a new IQ12 for the house. In which case that changes things...
Of what you listed, I'd lean toward the Yamaha DXR just because you can't really go wrong there. But the EV's are good too. I just have no idea about the HK Sonar cabs so can't really speak about them at all.
Yes thats a factor, I'd have no monitor for the band anyways (even though, we all use in ears, but in case I need a side mix for another room or I add more temporary musicians for a gig I would need a stage monitor anyways) but, neither is a bad option
In any case, is there another speaker you would recommend? Are the Dbrs too inferior to the dxrs?
PD: Thanks for answering :)
Talk about the IOS crash please!!!
I'd like to report on the current status of the Beta and how it's working, or not... but nobody has said anything. I'm starting to wonder if there's an NDA or something.
That for line music not micphone
What?
Different on dj and mixer
No, exactly the same.
That's why you split snake to 2 consoles foh and boh (monitor mix) and quit being cheap and buy a iem rig they aren't stupid expensive anymore
That is true to a point. Once there's a monitor console involved, the FOH tech is off the hook. But, for situations where people are doing mons from FOH, and where these problems arise, that would imply that nobody involved understands things to the point that getting a monitor console, without the knowledge in the video, would actually fix anything.
A monitor engineer would need be inserted into the equation, and it's possible they would even be less experienced considering the circumstances. Especially if we're talking something like a church installed sound system and volunteers. Or else the band would take over their own mixes using tablets or whatever for control. But whoever gets the ultimate control, still needs to know to leave the gain alone or use something like Re-Gain (and know WHEN to use it). They still need to set the gain initially, overall, for the mixes.
And things like channel EQ pre or post still apply too. Obviously, for a monitor console you normally want the channel monitor send tapped post EQ... But the people in control of the mixes (be it a monitor engineer or a band with tablets) needs to know if the singer re-EQ's the kick drum for their own ears, the drummer's kick drum sound just changed in the drummer's mix.
So it's not exactly an issue of being cheap or not... Knowledge and understanding of signal flow is still required.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio the way we do our live show when it's just one of us (sound engineer) we us 2 sq5 the boh sq allows the band to use the phone app to adjust their lvls at any moment and eliminates the need for a boh engineer and a TalkBack mic on stage if there's something they need I can switch over to the boh sq tablet and adjust what I need with out leaving the foh post. The biggest issue we run into are the younger bands that don't understand how to place monitors 😞 for the least feedback and they get mad when you try to help them understand
@@AlanHamiltonAudio na it's definitely cheapness issue here in south Texas
Just let them use in ears and make them do their own mix with an app on a digital mixer, problem not fixed but avoided 😂
But even that doesn't avoid the problem...unless they have their own dedicated monitor console and a split. If monitors are from FOH and the FOH tech is changing the gains, chasing some 'perfect' gain setting or mixing on the gain knobs with the faders all lined up perfectly razor straight (begging the question: Why even have faders if they are supposed to be razor straight?), then it's still changing their mixes, even though they set their own mixes to begin with.
And if the monitor sends are configured wrong on the console and set post fader, then that will change their mixes too, even if they have their own control over the mixes. They're still setting their mix based on the house gains at soundcheck. If those gains "go into motion" during the set, then their mixers "go into motion" too. Even though nobody in the bad touched anything and thought they had control of their mixes. Of course in that case, they might even be more confused because they KNOW they didn't touch their mix... yet it changed.
Having their own control over the mixes only works 100% when FOH is following proper protocols as far as gains and signal flow/routing/pick points and knowledge of what does and does not impact monitor mixes.
The musicians' control over their own mixes still relies on FOH not stepping on their mixes by changing things that still impact their mixes.
😄🙏
I think in our church only it happens..😅
These mistakes sound like mistakes from a complete noob. Best bet is to work in a studio setting before going to a live setting.
It's been my experience that a lot of studio engineers making their first forays into live mixing have plenty of problems. They're used to 'breaking' rules that have no real consequences in the studio. They usually end up working slow, and generally with plenty of feedback problems.
They're not used to what a live sound system should/can sound like... system tuning is questionable at best. A severe lack of understanding about system processing. And simply not used to combat audio conditions where there's no time to experiment and where experimenting without understanding the fundamentals of live audio, can lead to trouble... quickly.
While the same can apply going the other way, most of the fundamentals a live audio engineer brings to the studio doesn't really hurt anything in the studio. They might not be as initially creative, and more conservative overall on their first foray into the studio. But they can also be quicker, not used to having time to try things over and over... like multiple mic placements, multiple mic types, or EQ decisions and experiments. And a better grasp on what 'just works'.
But with experience, both can learn the nuances that make the two similar seeming job descriptions much more different than they might appear on the surface.
So if you set your channels to preEQ, then you can only use GEQs or external EQs to EQ the monitors, yes?
Yes, but then you'd have those available anyway. Plus, for IEMs, they're like not used at all or only minimally if the musicians want something specific in their in-ear response.
Keep in mind we're only talking here about EQ trade-aways and compromises when you're running monitors from FOH. When you've got a dedicated monitor console you have more flexibility because nothing you do on the monitor console has any bearing on FOH sound (or vice versa). Especially for IEMs. Obviously, live wedges can spill over into the house just from stage volume... but that's not exactly the same as needing to do some to a channel EQ for the house and it changing the signal in the monitors that the musicians like as-is.
If you absolutely do need to do something channel specific for a musician and their mon mix, then you have to weigh the trade-off of just setting the mon send on that channel for post-EQ and living with that change in FOH and pretty much leaving it like the musician likes for monitors (or at least finding a compromise you both can live with), versus splitting that channel into 2 channels on the FOH console and making one the house feed channel and the other the dedicated monitor feed channel. That second, cloned channel, can now do whatever you need for monitors for that channel without any impact on FOH... or vice versa.
So, you can have options... but depending on how many channels the FOH console has, you're potentially limited and not able to split EVERY channel. But maybe you have enough to split the important one(s) if requested/needed to make everyone happy, yet still get the FOH mix you want.
A lot of this also goes back to just understanding the signal flow and realizing what changes impact monitors and what ones don't. What settings do, what they do not do. The easiest trade-off might just be mixing FOH more conservatively than you'd like when mons are from FOH. Realizing that might not be the time to make big EQ changes just to hear what they do. Even if you can do them so the crowd doesn't really notice the experimenting, the musicians surely will notice in their IEMs. Or if those changes lead to feedback in the wedges too. At that point, everyone notices that...