A Fly's-Eye View of a Rock Band's Soundcheck
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- This is a look at a band's soundcheck from a fly's-eye view. A look over my shoulder as I go thru the channels and get the Midas M32 digital mixer ready for the show. This is journey through the sound system prep and band's setup process before a big show.
From the vantage point of a curious fly, you'll get an up-close look at the intricate details of the band's equipment and the audio and lighting production as everyone gets ready for the show to take the stage. A behind the scenes look at the workflow as sound levels are adjusted, microphones tested, and equipment placed to make sure everything is perfect and ready for their performance.
FOH mix is done on a Midas M32 and there is a Behringer X32 in Monitor world for stage monitor mixes. 3 biamped mixes downstage, a biamped cue wedge in monitor world, and a tri-amped drum monitor just off the drum riser SL of the drummer. There is some added behind the scenes footage from the stage showing pre-show elements of the backline and sound system.
The FOH scene is available to Patrons at:
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Midas M32 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater:
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Behringer X32 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater:
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Other Channel Videos-
Building an IEM Rig With the Behringer XR18 or Midas MR18:
• How to Build an IEM Ri...
3 Tips For Aspiring Live Audio Engineers:
• Live Audio Mixing: The...
Direct Boxes - What are they? How to use them? Direct Box 101:
• DI Box - What is it an...
5 Tips for Mixing Live Vocals:
• 5 Tips For Better Live...
Building a Concert - Production for Trace Adkins:
• Ever Wonder What Goes ...
My 5 Most Used Adapters for Live Sound:
• What Are My 5 Most Use...
Guitar Amp Micing Tips:
• Micing A Guitar Amp? T...
Behringer XR18 Channel Walkthrough:
• Understanding the Behr...
Drum Mixing Tutorial Playlist:
• Drum Mixing Videos
#livesound
#behringerx32
#Midas32
0:00 Intro
0:05 Start
6:10 Drum Mix from Console
7:28 Bass and Drum Mix from Console
14:35 Stage Sound and Stage and Backline Look
15:32 Concert Starts
Today's video is a look over my shoulder of a recent soundcheck. As the title says "A Fly's-Eye View...". There's narration for context, but for a lot of it you can hear the raw audio the camera is picking up, and see the FOH console as the soundcheck is progressing. I tried to pop in some text and graphics to add context. I also added in some clips with audio directly from the console too for comparison since that camera on the tripod kind of lies (it doesn't help that the mic gain in the camera was higher than it should've been) compared to the actual audio. Then some behind the scenes stuff, looking at the pre-show stage, and finally a snippet of the concert itself to show it all come together with a different camera...
On the channel FB page, I posted a longer snippet of the concert which I couldn't do on YT. So that gives you a better look and listen to the final product:
facebook.com/groups/livesoundproduction
As always... likes, subscribes, and shares always appreciated!
I uploaded the console scene file from the show to the Patreon Page plus a PDF showing the channel EQ and a few additional tips and tricks on the topic of soundchecks with digital consoles.
www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio
There are affiliate links for mics, consoles, and other items used, all in the video description.
~~~
Other Channel Videos-
Building an IEM Rig With the Behringer XR18 or Midas MR18:
th-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/w-d-xo.html
3 Tips For Aspiring Live Audio Engineers:
th-cam.com/video/tEX2Prwfh-g/w-d-xo.html
Direct Boxes - What are they? How to use them? Direct Box 101:
th-cam.com/video/6iwW5_Ia9Uc/w-d-xo.html
5 Tips for Mixing Live Vocals:
th-cam.com/video/oP4sdpkkNhY/w-d-xo.html
Building a Concert - Production for Trace Adkins:
th-cam.com/video/m2dJr5gR77g/w-d-xo.html
My 5 Most Used Adapters for Live Sound:
th-cam.com/video/SFzPh3UYAoE/w-d-xo.html
Guitar Amp Micing Tips:
th-cam.com/video/GBTyFxxNNBE/w-d-xo.html
Behringer XR18 Channel Walkthrough:
th-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/w-d-xo.html
Drum Mixing Tutorial Playlist:
th-cam.com/play/PLWtgwSNlxTjMsX8H1K87UcAP17zYSZqsT.html
Man, 20min Soundcheck with Montiors. That's quick! Really organized and structured all the way through including the Musicians. Awesome!
Thanks. Yes, the band was great to work with.
That's not a kick, that's a cannon
😂😂😂😂🎉
Haaaaaaaaaaa indeed
Remember he is giving us sound picked from the FOH not from the console aux send.
I love how these bands have humor. "It just needs to broken in. It'll be good by Tuesday."
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE DEALING WITH A CLASS ACT PRO? Sets gain before turning up the faders, communicates with A2, Mutes his PA for the band to adjust the monitors, and doesn't waste 20 mins equing the rack tom. This is a great video for new techs to learn the right way. Very cool!
Thanks!
You can avoid 20 minutes of tom EQ if the drums are tuned well and the mic's in the right spot.
You know you're in for it when the drummer yanks the drums out of his hatchback and sets them up without doing anything to them, especially if you're outdoors because it's only going to get worse with temperature. Those are the times when you say "screw it" and gate out as much crap as you can, then flying V the EQ until it sounds ok.
@@jttech44 You really know you are in for it when the drummer starts hitting his drums as hard as he/she can while you are putting mics on the drums. Specially when you are leaning with your ear close the the hats and snare LOL
@@ericpr0278 they love that, they love that like a fat kid loves cake
Well, that was interesting. Did not realize how much a band puts their faith in the sound guy
without the sound person, they don't get heard
I have no idea what I just watched but this was cool!
that band is very cool to work with. not very demanding. super appreciative i love how they have their guitar and bass cabs wired up super smart.
This is the right thing, I finally come across someone who knows what he's doing, congratulations!
Very well done, everything is integrated as it should be in one whole picture, perfect.
I enjoyed watching this video, the microphones are so clean 🤜🤛
I just did the near opposite of this: 4 hour long sound check plus one hour to get the stage from bare to loaded and wired. Was a fairly successful Japanese band playing a one-off in the US and I was doing monitors, starting from their show file. The really interesting differences are that their techs meticulously work through every input and output and guide a rough mix that ends up being very close to final. There is no wasted time noodling around, just a moderate but steady pace where they know exactly what they want. Then the drummer joined us to polish the mix in his ears. Then the bass and guitar, and by the time the singers got there we were 99% done. These bands tend to want to run their full set, which accounts for some of the time as well. When everything is dialed in and the show has started you can see a switch thrown in the heads of their techs, going from work mode to enjoying the experience, though still very focused until the band leaves the stage, after which they are right back to work but are incredibly kind and fun , at least the ones I have worked with all have been.
Love the old EV wedges ...
Very cool vid, much appreciated.
A drummer who knows how to do a sound check
Love your videos they are the inspiration for mine. Always great info and perspective.
I appreciate that!
That Midas 32 is a really clean board. Thanks for posting your process here for us.
My pleasure!
Man. Thanks a lot for sharing this. Much appreciated.
My pleasure!
Superb video nice to see we still use the same systems, been a long time for me. Cheers
Cool, thanks
Thank you so much for posting this
Thanks! If you didn't already see it, I posted a similarly themed video from a different show a couple of weeks ago. It's here:
th-cam.com/video/iCzNO4lCyAs/w-d-xo.html
It’s so amazing how mixing consoles have changed from much easier simpler quick knob lay out to very hard learning curve of using a compact, less knob digital muilti-flip screens to accomplished the same tasks. Don’t get me wrong I like digital stuff and much upgraded sound but I still gravitate to much easier simplistic of fully laid out analog console.
It's kind of the opposite for me, the more I've switched over to digital the more I find digital consoles overall more simple to use over analog. Especially large analog desks of old that were 6' wide and 4' deep. And then a rack or two (or more) of processing that all needed patched individually and weren't just available on every channel and bus waiting for me to engage it. A lot of constant moving, up-down-this way-that way-to set up cues and make changes. Especially during soundcheck dialing in compression and gates, and no such thing as presets then.
A lot of it is just finding new workflows, and understanding signal flow.
At a certain point, it's still the same... only different ;)
Wow, just stumbled upon this video of yours (thank you TH-cam algorithm). As an amateur music producer and total noob to actually running live sound, I really appreciate your attention to detail in putting this video together-I love the fly on the wall approach, and it was great to see which mics and EQ curves you used, as well as everything you were doing on the board. I’m fortunate to play trumpet in a funk band with some older guys with some serious gear like this, so I’ve grown accustomed to how soundcheck/IEMs are supposed to work from the performer’s perspective. I’d be willing to bet that that vocal came in too hot cuz the vocalist didn’t sing like he meant it during the initial line check.
Thanks for putting this out into the world and sharing your craft with all of us! And good on you for responding to everyone’s comments-it’s incredible that you find the time to do so. I subbed to your channel cuz I’m sure I have plenty more to learn from you! ✌🏻
Cool! Glad you like it! Thanks for the nice comment!
Midas M32!!! 😀 Awesome! 😄
Excellent video!!
Thanks!
Awesome video! Love watching the technical side of shows. Great idea having us be a fly on the wall! Cheers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very helpful…and well done. Thank you!
Thanks!
wow reminizing my midas x32 in my event at brunei darussalam🎉 very nice console
I remember the days we just rolled in...flooded the stage with our gear...set up...quick sound check, and we were done. Mind you we didn't have to replicate the sound of a recording, because we didn't have one...but crikey, this crap today is another level again. We didn't need the gunshot sounds for our sound check, we just at 8pm got into it and everyone was happy.
Wow i love this
Thanks!
This stuff fascinates me, was at college in the late 2000s just learning the basics of working the mixing desk, I wanted to be a sound engineer. Left the course after a few months but this is awesome. I was learning on older analogue equipment though.
It's amazing how fast things are changing with the digital revolution in the production world.
That snare sounds like a gunshot!
And, that slapback is for real.
The room tames down really well when people get in there.
A professional audio engineer at work.
Thanks!
I never get a sound check$ until the end of the night. A line check and the first song is the sound check. Thank goodness for show files.
big thanks bro!
Done this dance, or similar to, many times. Seldom mix bands and concerts, but my focus is mostly theatrical - musicals and such. Just got through with a production where the orchestra was acoustic and the only thing I had control over was five headset-mic'ed singers, small room, and I'm parked in a back corner. Equal parts imagination, experience, and hope that the orchestra members all were in the same moods day after day for a week.
Nice work!
Thanks!
This is crazy, im currently having breakfast but with this playing it sounds exactly like I'm working 😂
LOL!
Awesome!!!
Thank you! Cheers!
You want to see hardcore, watch the engineer at a festival. No sound check, just a line check through headphones, then insanely fucking intense first minute. Separates the men from the boys. Last festival tour I engineered, I needed a week in a quiet room to rehabilitate x
Yip... Throw and go!
As someone once said "If the sound person is any good, then a soundcheck won't matter. If the sound person is not any good, well, the soundcheck still won't matter!"
Yes. I do one of the smaller stages at the Isle of Wight Festival. Fifteen bands per day with fifteen minute changeovers. The trick is making sure you get your gains set up right in line check, then you put the faders where you think they should be and off you go.
Awesome 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Loving that Midas board!
Thanks!
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I have the M32C with Midas 32 X16 Stage box. We play a lot of smaller venues and run our sound from the stage. I love being able to mic every single thing and record the whole show to individual tracks for mixing later. Not having to lug a giant board around is sweet. But I would still love to own the one you have. Do you think it would have too high a noise floor to use for home studio desk/interface? I run Apollos for that. But no automated faders per say
@@allenlocke1935 I think it would be fine.
Reminds me of a Far Side comic where the sound guy turns up the “Suck knob”.
LOL
I recollect for a period of time some 30yrs ago bouncing around clubs ... I had my mains labeled "Angst".
Cool video!
Thanks!
I see they wanted to hang the bell off your stage as well. Fun band to work with. All super nice guys.
Yip. Great to work with.
"Trust the Midas touch!"
The band is Thunderstruck and is awesome!
Love this video! New sub
Thanks!
Nice and orderly, just as soundcheck should be. Professional.
Thanks! Being prepared on our end, and having a band prepared on their end, really helps!
True - I don’t know how many chaotic garage band style sound checks I’ve had the misfortune of witnessing; lead guitarist won’t stop turning up his amp/shredding/trying to melt everybody’s faces, drummer decides to tune their toms while you’re trying to set levels for the vocalists…no thanks. We might as well pack up and go home, since we’ll all be deaf by the time we end our set anyways…
@@B3ARCAT You forgot "...the drummer hitting his snare and other things as I'm placing the mics"
Cool video! Small thing I noticed - You use the knobs under the screen to make EQ adjustments. I'd strongly recommend trying to use the dedicated EQ controls to the left, as their resolution isn't as fine and you can make much faster movements without having to spin the pot around like 10,000 times.
I do sometimes, but when I'm in the screen for comps and gates I keep coming back for EQ too. Spent too much time on Avid Venue stuff...
Also the small under-screen rotaries are the weak points on the M32, and, Midas/Musicgroup is a PAIN to get spare parts or repair service from.
I love my Midas M32, it has changed the world of live sound, I user to carry a 32 channel Soundcraft 8000 around, took 4 people to lift it into a venue, now I can move it on my own, perfect.
I much prefer the MD409 mic for guitar, it gives exactly the sound that is coming from the cab.
Yep, big ass console ...
plus several outboard racks of multiple Drawmer gates, several dbx comps, Klark EQs, Yamaha effects, maybe one or two high-end comp/processors for lead vocals ...
I humped all that myself, plus a tri-amped point source PA (sweet Apogee traps, JBL subs) ...
I loved every minute of it.
I was extraordinarily fit.
Thirty years ago!
Last set shutting down @2a, out the door loaded up by 4a, home by 6a ... those were the days.
Started out like that in clubs, then ascended into 2k proscenium theaters, then 18k amphitheaters, then all the way to 70k stadiums!
Essentially retired now ...
All these digital toys are wonderful.
Очень здорово! Спасибо автору!
Gotta love those BMS drivers for Hi's, what subs are you using? Sounds great btw... I really enjoy watching your videos, please keep up the good work, I know it's appreciated by many!
Those are Yorkville LS1208's.
Sound's Good 👍
Thanks 👍
Thunderstruck is coming to MORGANTOWN this summer and I can’t wait to see them at Ruby Waterfront!!!
Cool! They will rock the place.
I won't mute channels when going to the next one during soundcheck, all the mics are gonna be open when the band plays so work in real condition from the start ! :)
Well you’re right but he started with a line check and tonal progression from the drums upward…
This is fine as long as the entire channels will be unmuted when the band plays
this video is it is best please next
It is very interesting for beginners - how do you check drums. It is a good idea to do the same video with detailed instructions on why every setting is...
I have some older videos about EQing Kick, snare, and toms. I also have those videos in a Drum Mixing Playlist on the channel.
I probably need to revisit the topic in the future and tie some things into newer videos.
Here is the playlist:
th-cam.com/play/PLWtgwSNlxTjMsX8H1K87UcAP17zYSZqsT.html
Very interesting one! From BArcelona
Thank you! Cheers!
Merci beaucoup
Je vous en prie
can i get your scene file want to check up some stuff down here in gh
Nice video! As the monitor guy I would rather have house PA turned on to be closer to the final needed volumes on stage.......but hey, my last monitor job was pre digital :)
We were kind of doing a little of both so they had a point of reference to what the stage sounded like with the house on, plus by itself. The only time we deviated from that too much was when the one monitor had a ring in it and I muted to make sure it wasn't me... which it wasn't... and then to let Jason work on it with the house muted. Then I never got around to bringing the house back up with his monitor for a quick listen because the ring was gone and they were good and ready to move on to the next channel.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio 👍Makes sense. And, yes: Feedbacks never come from front of house ;) 🙋♂
Beta 91A for Kick in is insane!!!
It's a pretty standard rider request these days.
For me it could be one of the best mic ........
Now as usual it depends wich kick, how is it tuned, the kind of music.........or we are a lot to be insane to use it !
Nice quick . Efficient. Good sound check
The band was great to work with and understood how to work efficiently from their side of the mics.
Next time try this: have the drummer play a groove with kick ,snare and hat. That way he will play the way, he really plays, while the monitor guy is distributing the signals, you can set your snare reverb and check the overheads and it is more fun for all of you. When a drummer plays only the kick or only the snare, he tends to play it much harder than usual, giving you a false impression.
I really do it a host of ways, depending on the band and time. The more experienced the band, the easier it is to get consistent show-level signals in whatever way they want to give them to me. And when they do play thru their kit, it can go pretty quickly to fine tune anything and the monitors get fine tuned then too.
But I've been known to just tell them to play a song (vocals or not) and set things that way too. That'll get a pretty quick roughed in mix and then from there, monitors can be set (or fine-tuned... they could've already been giving the mon engineer signals) beyond just individual vocals in individual mixes as a starting point. I don't really want a vocalist singing without their vocal in their wedge... unless that's what THEY want.
Of course if they have their own split and ear rig, some of this is a moot point anyway.
For a minute I thought the vocalist was going to do the unexpected and actually sing during sound check... sadly it was the usual and completely useless: "1... 2... check... yeah, the monitor's fine".
SING, damnit...
LOL... Fortunately, they did a few full songs for soundcheck so we got a solid vocal check for stage and FOH.
I once met a Slovakian sound engineer. And a Czech one too. A Czech one too.
Many, many such cases. Not to mention, they never sing as loudly during soundcheck as they do during the performance, and *how much* louder is wildly variable.
I've been finding that setting gain for the OHs first has allowed me to balance the close up mics for stuff like Toms, Snare, etc better as they always bleed into the OH.
Do you think this makes sense or is worth it?
Of if I have too much bleed, its better move the OH more away from the kit?
For live mixing, and rock/pop/modern country, I'm aggressively HPFing the OH's. That way they aren't picking up (or the channel isn't seeing as the case may be) as much stage wash like in the places where it would really be obvious. Nor toms, kick...etc...
So the OH's are more for just the cymbals and some 'life' sometimes for the snare too.
If I'm mixing something like jazz, then I take a totally different approach and the OH's do carry a lot of the kit sound.
There's a point of diminishing returns if you move the OHs farther away from the cymbals, but that is viable option to a point. A lot depends on your stage volume and the drummer's own volume.
If it's a smaller venue and stage, then I probably don't even put up OH's... because the downstage vocal mics for all intents and purposes ARE the OH's ;)
If I was you, I'd try an experiment with aggressively HPFing the OHs to see how that impacts your drum mix and workflow.
Heck, another option is 'under-micing' cymbals and/or specifically micing things like the ride.
In this video I talk a bit more about drum mic placement and OH placement: th-cam.com/video/uXGug5smBrQ/w-d-xo.html
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thank you for the explanation
Wow, I didn't realize you could put effect returns on a DCA
Yeah, I always put FX in a mute group no matter what, but anytime I have VCA's or DCA's I like that vocal FX DCA for a nice one fader balance blend, or a quick kill for talking between songs. The mute group works for a quick kill too... but the DCA also lets you fade the FX back in if you happen to forget to turn them on after the singer gets done talking... It's a little more 'sly' than that Unmute button in that case ;)
THAT FUCKING SNARE
Always amazing to see M32s and X32s getting some love. As an X32 user I have a question: does the M32 ends up having issues with faders after years of use? Some faders of both the X32's I'm using are not working properly, and I'm wondering if it's a common issue with the M32 too.
Knocking on wood... No issues with X32 faders or M32 faders. I have 2 X32's so I try not to use the M32 in situations where it might be dusty (smokey really isn't an issue anymore like it used to be around here). I bought the first X32 so as not to have to use the SC48 when an X32 would do. Then added another down the road. And ultimately added the M32 as well. So no one console gets relied upon for 100% of the gigs. I also try to keep them covered between bands/sets and all of that.
Yes I have seen a couple of issues with ghost faders they move without you doing anything in this case is always good to do maintain on your console so these issues dont arise mainly if you use the console consistantly
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I see, clever idea. Well, the two X32s I'm using aren't new and have been used a lot in the past by other engineers; I assume they didn't take enough care of them, back then.
@@brayanbermudez2799 Yup, exactly what I'm talking about..
@@_universe_in_a_ball_ this is why the midas m32 is a better console because it has individual motors for faders compared to the x32 that has blocks of motorized faders yall should check out Dave Rats video on M32 vs X32 is so good
sounds really tight
Super tight 😂
Textbook gain staging. Plenty of headroom. I noticed you didn't mess with the vocal EQs a whole lot. Do you usually do that or let the mics natural EQ do the work and just tweak it?
As with a lot of this stuff, the answer is "It depends". If the system is balanced well enough, I don't tend to do a whole lot to the vocal EQ. I'm always going to apply a HPF.
Sometimes a low mid cut if the vocal is muddy... and the HPF doesn't fix it before it becomes destructive to the overall sound. Sometimes a hi-mid and/or high boost to get the vocal to shimmer a bit and cut thru a guitar heavy mix. Or to counter muddiness.
Unless that thins the voice too much.
Maybe a high cut or de-esser if the vocalist is a bit too sibilant or piercing.
I'm likely to fine tune all of that within the actual mix when I hear the band, but at this point I have a good idea of what I'm going to need to do even before I hear a full song... Just based on what I hear individually, and the genre, and kind of know how it will all fit together when the band plays. But still, you have to listen once the band starts and make sure that whatever you did, or do, is actually working.
I like to say you always want to be able to explain why you made a change or tried something... otherwise... it's just randomness and that is basically turning knobs blindly.
In fact, if someone was to watch a video after the show of an audio tech working, along with the music, they should be able to explain the reasoning behind any move they made. Of course their reasoning might be flawed, but it's still better than random knob turning and searching without a purpose. IMO...
Nice
Thanks
Hey Al!
Hello Hunter! :)
Found this very interesting. I'm about 10 gigs into my journey as a live sound engineer and I'm learning everyday and loving it!
Enjoy seeing how different people EQ and soundcheck.
I notice they're using sm57 on the Marshalls here. Ive always seen e609's being used on amps when I've been at gigs.
Any comments on the difference between the two? Is it more than just tonality?
I've got E609's as well... I think it's probably a good 90% of the time or more that an act just requests an SM57 though. Both sound perfectly fine for the application. E609s are good when you don't have a stand or don't want a stand to keep things clean onstage... since they can be draped over the amp and still be kept perfectly on-axis for the speaker.
I got the E609's several years ago... They were on Glen Campbell's rider for his guitar amps and so I added them to the inventory for that show.
Then they got there and asked for and used SM57's...
And so it goes! ;)
FWIW here's a similar video in concept from this fall at another venue:
th-cam.com/video/iCzNO4lCyAs/w-d-xo.html
This was super interesting! I appreciate the job of the live sound engineer more and more as I learn about mixing. Are effects that you added a live engineer's taste or do the talent usually ask for it?
Both really. In this case, they didn't really say... But with AC/DC songs there are some things in the original songs that I try to duplicate here and there. Like the song "Thunderstruck" has a delay cue or two.
Nice work. Just one question, why boosting 10k and up on toms? Don't you get too much cymbals bleed that way?
A lot of times I'll use a PEQ instead of the high shelf. That would be the more surgical approach. The high shelf allows a margin of error in getting a lot of attack which is sometimes the goal with rock toms. And to do it quickly. But the upper ends of that shelf are pointless.
OTOH, it's not really going to get a lot of cymbals because the gates are not going to be open for them. The toms are gated with frequency sensitive gating and it's only the thud of the tom that will open the gate. So the cymbals won't open the gate,
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Yeah, i should really start setting my tom gates to be frequency sensitive, i always forget to do in a rush. Thank you for your response.
I think I saw a speaker and sub by the drums is this so that the drummer doesn’t need to wear in ears? Great video as always
Yes, the band wasn't carrying any monitors and wanted a drum monitor. I don't actually remember if they specifically requested a drum sub in their rider or we just provided as part of a standard 'large show' tri-amped drum monitor. But he got a 2x18" subs and a 15"x2" top.
Sometimes, a drummer will carry or want IEMs and STILL want at least a sub, but it's getting more and more likely they'll be carrying a throne shaker in that scenario.
Love the video. question: I see you looking at the spectrograph. I use an Xair and Mair. Out of all the instruction videos I seen, I have never found anything on what exactly the spectrograph does and how and why it is being used. I have the Xair book by Mark Baker, and can't find any information about the specific use of the spectrograph. Please enlighten me! thanks
The spectrograph (AKA waterfall) shows you more of a look at the frequencies over a section of time. While the bars on the RTA are dancing around in real-time, leaving peaks on the screen for a bit, the spectrograph is still showing your frequencies, but over the course of time. I'm not sure whatever the time is, but it's the time it takes it to scroll from the bottom of the screen to the top (before a moment is gone).
The frequencies follow the normal low to high spectrum just as the are marked on the GUI.
The spectrograph then shows you the intensity of the frequencies along that low to high spectrum via colors. Cool to hot. So, for example, if you hear a 6k feedback, even if you aren't sure it's 6k, you can look at the spectrograph and see red has popped onto the bottom of the screen at 6k and is scrolling to the top of the screen... and if the feedback is remaining, then it'll turn into a red streak at 6k.
But in any case, you don't have to be looking at the spectrograph when you hear a feedback (to actually confirm exactly where it is) since it's operating over time and you can glance to the screen to see it scrolling up. The red at 6k will pop up and scroll to the top.
So IOW the bottom of the screen, the spectrograph is 'current'... and at the top of the screen it's a few seconds ago... As far as what it's showing you about the signal over time.
Of course, you don't have to be looking at it just to see feedback... you can be looking at it to see where maybe something you're hearing (like some harshness in the mix) might be showing itself overall... etc...
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you for explaining!
Seating for a rock concert seems like a weird choice :D The M32 is a great console, my only gripe is that you can't customize the the channel order, which means a lot of work for the stage techs if there are multiple bands playing with different FOH guys.
You can softpatch in the M32. It used to be limited to within banks of 8, but that limitation went away in a firmware update some time ago.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Ah, I'll have to look into this, thank you.
@@beatflyy Lots of youtube videos on how to do it. Also remember that it's all scene-able, so, you can recall patch setups. Very useful for those small opener bands, you can keep everything on one layer, then software-repatch between bands with a couple button clicks.
My biggest gripe with the m32 is the under-screen rotary encoders getting flakey.
Quick question:
Are you splitting your signal coming out of the mics so you’re sending one to your console and one to the monitor console? In this case how do you control which console sends phantom power to the mics if needed?
Thanks!!
Yes, there is an analog splitter onstage. Each mic input on it goes 2 places: 1 set of XLR tails goes to the monitor console and the other side of the inputs feeds the house console.
Normal protocol is for the stage console to handle phantom power and that's how I do it. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. If the split is an isolated split then only the non-isolated side can send phantom power anyway... but if not then either console can send phantom power. Or even both consoles can send phantom power. The mics won't care and the consoles won't care. Modern consoles won't be harmed by that. If you're using a console from the 70's... or maybe the early 80's... then maybe there might be an issue. But anything newer shouldn't care. In fact I doubt anything from the 80's cares either. But still, there's no real point in it either and like I said, standard protocol is for the stage console to handle phantom, and if there's an isolated side to the split, FOH would normally connect to the iso side (which is another reason for stage to handle the phantom since the iso side can't).
Adding +48v DC in parallel to +48v DC gives you...... +48v DC, which is to say, having phantom power on at both ends of an analogue split doesn't hurt anything. The much, much bigger deal is to make sure that the sources that need phantom power get it, and the sources that don't need it do not. For that reason, and that reason alone, it's important to farm that duty off to stage or FOH so that nobody does something stupid.
Looked like Thunderstruck, did a show with them a few years back.
Yip, that was them. I saw the other day they have a lot of the show posted on YT .
So do you put all the mics (i.e. drums, bass guitar) with an input gain of -18 Db, and then adjust the channel fader ?
I set the gain to average around -18dBFS on the input meters... peaking higher... and then use the faders and DCA's for the mixing.
Just curious. Whats your process for ringing out the room? Do you just use white noise generator? The last few shows ive run have been huge rooms with lots of open air space like this and with no people in the room you can only guess how much its going to dampen things. And also lately ive been using side chain compresson on the bass from the kick to really clean up the low end and give both kick and bass similar territories in the subs. Good video. Also- some of my buddies ran a show for these guys and they had a truss fall down and take out the marshall stacks and almost injured the drummer. Stay safe out there.
I have Smaart V9 and I measured with that during the afternoon. I then leave it up during the show to compare the console vs the room. But I don't make any real changes via it at that point (during the show) unless I hear something and I look at it and it helps to confirm it.
I'd rather not guess and overcompensate for people dampening the room response. It's not always a bad thing to lose some highs on a rock gig... until it gets to the point of being too dull. But that's probably not going to be an issue with a full on rock show. I think I did add a little 3dB shelf at 11K.
@Alan Hamilton Audio Good to know I'll look into it!
Demos of the gun fx sounds :))
Interesting ...AC/DC Tribute I would guess with confidence ✊😊
LOL... Yes... Very accurate one too!
I never mute the FOH during soundcheck unless the monitor engineer specifically asks me (to find a problem or something like that). The band is going to perform with the front on, so soundchecking monitors without the front gives a the wrong feel/sound on stage.
Just my experience (both as a monitor and FOH guy)
BTW, are you using an analogue snake (wondering because of the multicolored snake going into your doghouse). The analogue snake is the only reason I made the definitve switch to digital for R&R shows, otherwise I would still be using analogue desks. Corporate and broadcast is a different beast, digital rules for those
I generally swap back and forth between FOH on and off while mons are being tested to give the band the feel of both. FOH off they get a really good idea of what their mons are doing with all of the subtleties therein. With FOH on they get a feel for what their mons are doing when things are closer to show mode and what they'll hear then. I find that helps keep monitor levels down overall (because they have some reference to the volume with the PA) but also helps them get their mon mix right before a full band soundcheck. Unless someone prefers it done differently. So in this case, they were setting mons as I was setting house on the line checks. They weren't necessarily waiting on me to mute and THEN starting monitor checks. Things went a bit different on that SL vocal because there was a ring... and I quickly muted the house to make sure it wasn't me and to let them work with that onstage in isolation. They got it... and were ready to move on... So I never really got a chance to give them another listen with the house on until the full band/song soundcheck.
Yes.. analog snake is deployed here. The venue does not have a cable trough. There are yellowjackets at the aisles, but not under the seats. They're just dressed there. I didn't want to trust the Midas/Behringer AES50 Cat5e STP cable at that length to any 'surprises'. We would've been using the analog splitter anyway to avoid gain sharing in this case just to speed things along... I could've used an AES50 connection from FOH to a DL32 at the stage, and just used an analog split between the mon desk and the DL32. But it wasn't that big of a deal just to run the analog snake and skip the DL32. There was plenty crew to make it pretty much a non-factor time-wise. I'm OK with gain sharing if the mon guy is onboard with it. But it's also a complication that doesn't have to exist if we just use the analog splitter. So it's a consideration with time, mon engineer, and which way it makes the most sense for a particular gig.
Disagree. FOH is my domain, if a musician is playing off the FOH sound, their monitors are wrong and need work. Muting FOH and forcing them to get what they need from their monitor is 100% the right way to do it. When FOH is at level, they might need changes, but those changes are going to be very subtle.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Digital snakes will offer some noticeable amount of clarity over an analogue snake, but I'm right there with you. The single AES50 port on the M32 really limits things, because you have no fallback. You can get ruggedized ethercon, that is pretty tough, like tough enough to live in a cable hide and not die randomly. Spring for the stuff that uses direct burial cat6a with braided steel reinforcement. As long as you don't try and kill that stuff (parking a car on it) you won't be able to.
Hi, what is the best fx for vocals ?
Pls reply, thank you ❤
I like a vocal plate. Usually the default is a 20-30ms pre-delay and 1.5s decay. Then I adjust accordingly per song. Ballads... longer decay for sure and likely longer pre-delay. Roughly 50-70ms pre delay and 2-2.5sec decay for a ballad.
For up tempo stuff, maybe even shorter than 1.5s decay... and/or less reverb in balance. Or maybe a short delay instead of verb.
Sometimes I'll use a hall on a ballad instead of the plate. Depending if I want a darker reverb or not. I like my halls dark and my plates brighter.
Multiband compressor, by a huge margin. Most of what you think of as a "studio" vocal sound is multiband compression. Lots of ways to get that effect, even with mic choice and preamp choice in a studio, but live, you use the effect unit unless you have some very spicy gear (like digico's tube pre modules) and even then you're likely using a multiband to tailor it to your needs.
Can you make a video on introduction to live sound management(sound engineering) please 😅
Don't know if anyone commented on the wind noise out of the outside kick. But mic placement issue??
Not sure what you're hearing but there's no wind noise on either kick mic.
I may be hearing an artifact, however it sounds like an engine with a sparkplug removed at time 06:24ish You can also hear this wind noise in subs with ports that are too small.
computer speakers suck, hook up some better speakers @@dennisjones8991
Hi Alan , one Question , can you send me this mix Preset Maybe ? Iam learning With That. Nice Video thankmyou
Are you using outboard effects/ dynamics or the in board midas effects dynamics or eq in the channels?
I'm using just the built in FX Rack and channel strip/bus processing. Nothing external.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio that you could use anything outboard if you chose, and prefer the inboard Midas processing speaks volumes of the quality and ease of use less is more!
I love live music and try to go to as many shows as I can. From local bands to international touring bands. What is the principal reason the opening band sound is so bad? I used to think it was because they had lesser quality equipment they were going through but I don't think that is the full story at some concerts. Maybe they don't get a sound check, or their sound guy is not as experienced? Maybe it's all the above but it is sooooo apparent. A couple times I've had to talk friends into staying for the main act it was so bad for the opener.
It's usually the band's fault in one way or the other. Not always. Sometimes there will be a dB limit imposed on the opener or some other restrictions that might negatively impact them... and it also could be their soundcheck time is limited. But for a touring band playing with the same headliner, and digital consoles these days, that's not much of an excuse either. Their baseline settings should be saved from the previous show and even if there was NO soundcheck, their FOH engineer should be starting in a good place to quickly pull a mix together on the first song. And the monitor mixes should also be saved and quickly recalled, and especially for ears, shouldn't 'need' much changing (if any). This is all especially true for an act on the same PA each night.
In clubs, it might be tougher due to time factor, small stages, and constantly different PA's each night. The experience and ability of the band's engineer will definitely come into play. And they might not even HAVE their own engineer and using whoever the house tech is. Plus, while they MIGHT be carrying their monitor rig/ear rig if they are a touring act (most bands do these days if they are touring), which gives them quickly recallable monitor settings, but for FOH in clubs/smaller venues they might be sharing desks with the headliner or at least using whatever the venue/promoter provides. That means they may or may not have a starting scene saved for a baseline. And even if they do have a scene, the room and rig being totally different will mean the baseline is not nearly as close as it could be.
But MOST house techs will be competent and NOT the reason a band's mix falls apart. Especially at competent venues that understand this and do maintain some minimum standards.
So that's where the band comes into this equation. The headliner is USUALLY the more polished act. They usually have their own FOH tech and that person is usually in that role because the band is comfortable with them and likes their work. They probably have as much if not more experience as the band. The band is used to playing gigs, reading the room, understanding limitations and playing through them, etc.. They could also have better dialed in backline instruments/amps and have taken steps to minimize stage volume in how it relates to FOH volume and mix. IOW, making sure they have a tight sound onstage that works for their FOH mix and engineer.
An opening band might have less experience, less time onstage, and come into the gig trying to play too loud... playing with little to no dynamics (everything on 10). And doing that without being as tight musically. So it can get 'thrashy'. They can be their own worst enemy in a lot of ways.
For small local festivals/multi-act local stages you'll find some local bands get excited about playing their 'big gig' and want to throw the kitchen sink at the gig. So they add an extra member that's not usually with the band (like a keyboard player or sax player). The singer suddenly wants to play acoustic guitar when they usually just sing. Someone's girlfriend is going to sing backups and play tambourine. The drummer decides to bring a 12 pc kit when they usually have a 4 pc kit. The guitar players turn up to 11 even though they never practiced at that level. And the bass player's rig can't keep up because he's using the same amp as rehearsal. Maybe this lineup actually practiced... maybe they didn't... But in either case, it's not at all the lineup they usually have and the one most experienced at playing together. And the WAY they play together. So they don't get comfortable, and they don't play tight.
As a rule, a PA (and band engineer) can't 'create' sound as much as 'recreate it'. GIGO = garbage in / garbage out. Sure, you can polish some things, enhance some things, etc... But there has to be something to work with in the first place. Some things can't really be polished... ;)
Even if the opening act is carrying their own engineer, by virtue of their own inexperience, their sound person might be less experienced too. So even if they have the same tools available to them as the headliner, there is no guarantee they'll get as much out of it due to their own technical limitations.
Far and away, what I generally see is the opening band is their own worst enemy in not sounding as good as the headliner, or sounding 'bad'. The headliner might have the full lighting rig and full polished show, which that polish and the visuals can enhance the perceived audio... so there's that... but still, if the band isn't playing tight and comfortable, and the audience isn't vibing, then their sound and playing will suffer. But it's because their 'performance' suffered in that case and FOH can only present what is flowing through the mics into the console.
Someone once said "If the soundperson is any good, a soundcheck won't matter. And f the soundperson is not any good... well, the soundcheck still won't matter"
What do you think of the Behinger Wing console?
I haven't had a chance to try one or even see one in the wild. I'd be curious to try one out, or at least get a look at one, but as of yet, I've not ran across anyone touring with one in any capacity at all. Be it local, regional, or national.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio bro, be honest with us. Are you the best audio engineer out there? Because I have never come across a channel that explains live mixing and routing better than your channel.
@@loveaboveall2382 Thanks! I just try and do the best I can.
Can’t go wrong with wing for the price.
Friend of mine just ditched his wing for a M32. The wing runs out of processing at some point and you can't have that happening.
Do you adjust for delay on the whole system? Is that engineering pre-done?
Yes, system time alignment was done prior to the band's arrival.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio any suggestions or techniques? I don't have access to Smaart right now. Trying to figure out for my church, that has zero acoustic treatment. Might be treatment first, then timing, but I will take suggestions.
@TheRealGregKnight Take a look at Open Sound Meter, which is free. I've been using it for the last couple of months. Didn't dissapoint. That being said, I would treat the room first and check the positioning and aim of the speakers. The latter can make a big difference, especially in reflective rooms.
how did phantom work if you're splitting analog
I let the monitor console handle phantom power... but in truth, it wouldn't matter. We both could turn it on and everything be fine. The mics just need to see phantom from one source, but neither they nor the consoles would care if both consoles sent phantom.
But normal protocol is for one console to do it, and usually that's the mon world console.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thank you
We run 2 m32s through an analog snake with phantom on both boards. It does act differently through a Rio. ( This is my lady's account. Phone is charging.)
You should invert the phase of bass ampli microphone.
With the sound I was getting from the DI I just wanted to add some of the top of the speaker sound with the bass mic, so once I used a fairly aggressive HPF, any phase cancellations were negligible to moot at that point and more importantly weren't really a negative to what I was getting (hearing) so I rolled with it as-is. I know the old Countryman Type 185 was wired pin 3 hot so a lot of people got used to flipping the mic polarity for that reason, even though technically the bass DI was where the inversion was. Then there's the matter of timing between the two sources which really comes down to what is a negative to the sound and what is helping the sound. There is no right or wrong answer as long as the combination isn't destructive to the overall sound. If the two sounds create a lot of cancellations in the low end and really thin the bass... that would be bad. But the HPF negated even the potential of that here.
I've been watching a lot of videos like this recently and one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb for me compared to when I run sound is that most of the channels are at or close to unity gain. Is this common? I feel like when I mix my two bands it's never like that. Even when you were checking the cymbals you had is fairly close to unity gain whereas I usually have my OHs pretty low like -20-30ish. This make me feel like I am doing something wrong. Another thing I've seen a lot recently in comments/posts is that a lot of times pros have SM58s gain at around +28-32. Again this seems crazy to me because I usually have my bands vox gain at like +18. I know ultimately as long as everything sounds good it's fine, but it just really throws me for a loop when I see comment after comment that say the same thing and I am always different. Thoughts?
Some things might seem to be not what they are. First and foremost, I set my channel gain to average -18dBFS (peaking higher) on the Behringer/Midas consoles. Sometimes I'm more aggressive, or sometimes I'm less aggressive with the gain depending on the source and experience (like if I feel I'm being sandbagged I will go a little conservative... and some things like cymbals I set the gains conservative there), but that is ballpark. And then I let the faders land where the faders go for the mix to sound good. If the system gain structure is correct, that's going to put vocals around unity.
But for a lot of bands, where the band is already pretty balanced onstage... that will be around unity for a lot of things anyway. Key word "Around" unity. I'm not trying to be spot on. Other than I know overall system gain structure, and a balanced stage sound, will have things in that ballpark anyway.
Faders ALL lined up perfectly straight is usually an indication the sound person is mixing on the gain knobs... and that is a bad habit that should die in the 21st century with all the metering we have on a modern console of even budget prices. I always say: If the faders are supposed to be all perfectly straight, then why do they even put channel faders on the console?
But for the faders to even be around unity for a mix, that is as long as I'm in a room where I can really mix and I'm not just filling in around stage volume. If it's just filling in around stage volume then all bets are off at that point... although... with proper gain structure in the system, the vocals are still going to be in the ballpark of unity. Even with monitors (and these days a lot of vocalists are on IEMS anyway), the vocalists probably aren't matching with a dimed out guitar amp sound aimed straight off the stage, or a snare drum being hit with baseball bats by Thor! ;)
There might be nothing else in the PA except vocals in that circumstance. Unless the room is big enough for that kind of stage volume and to still build a proper mix in the sound system. Sometimes, it's more damage control than mixing in small venues with loud bands.
You mentioned the cymbals/hats... That is someplace I tend to run the gains a tad bit cooler. Not a lot... but I'm not really going to be letting them really peak out at times at -12dBFS like I might the vocalist or other dynamic instruments.
And in the video here, I brought them up to hear them a little loud just to really focus on them before settling in with them at around -10dB on the faders for show level. And that is -10dB on the fader WITH the gain being a little more conservative than most other places on the console. So by the full song soundcheck, and the show, I'm not running them unity. Depending on the situation, the drummer, and how I normally gain them, I doubt I'm ever really outside of a -10 to -5 window on the hats and OH faders. Or else, they might not be used at all.
On some smaller stages, and venues, the vocals mics ARE the overheads sometimes... ;)
Also, I do use DCAs and subgroups. The vocals run thru a stereo subgroup and there's a comp plugin across the subgroup to glue the vocals a bit. 99% of the time I do run unity from channels to subgroups... But on the DCAs I'm a little more active in how I approach that. Like for the band here, the guitars were assigned to a DCA and the DCA was not a unity. So, while the guitar channels were at unity in layer 1 of the console... the reality is the DCA had them choked back a bit. For a band that rocks like they do, that gave me a little room to layer the vocals with the guitars, plus be able to bring the guitars up a little more as the show builds. Of course, there were only 2 guitar channels here... the input list said there'd be 4 guitar inputs so technically, it would've been easy enough with just two guitar channels (vs the 4) to have skipped the DCA.
But the DCAs do let me keep the channel faders in that unity area of the fader where the resolution allows for finer movements. Which this can be utilized in big rooms or small for that purpose. Or as a secondary purpose beyond just using them to control an overall mix of like instruments (like all the guitars, all the vocals, or all the drums, etc...).
The vocals and drums are also in their own DCAs, and I almost always do that... Regardless of band size or kit size. Once I have the drum mix like I like it, I don't always keep that DCA at unity... It might only be back a few dB (3 or so), but that gives me a little room to adjust the overall drum mix, and maybe push it to unity later... or not... Same for vocals.
The Vocal FX are in a DCA as well. I know for this show, the Vocal FX DCA was not at unity with the vocals. it was somewhere below unity. Also, the Delay itself was on a DCA just so I could have it on the top at all times for delay cues. And it was anywhere from off to probably -10dB, except for a random cue or two. But had you looked at the FX returns, they would've been at unity... But the reality is the DCA positioning meant they weren't really at unity. The Vocal FX DCA was probably -5dB IIRC.
The most vocal verb I probably ran was just on the individual vocal checks to get feel for the setting and then I ducked it back later.
As for vocal gain.... +28 for the average rock vocalist on a wired SM58 is pretty normal. That's getting me an average input meter on the Behringer/Midas of -18dFS with some peaks above that heading into -12dBFS for I'd say most rock singers.
+18 would be for a fairly loud vocalist. +23 for that matter is actually probably also a pretty loud vocalist.
+28- +32 does not seem over-gained to me. In fact, that seems like a pretty average range for rock/modern country and an SM58 or similar mic.
But ultimately, that's what the meters are for... The gain needs to be what the gain needs to be.
The only thing I wonder, assuming you're using wired mics similar to an SM58, and normal vocalists, is if you're setting the gains to PEAK at -18dBFS? They only need to AVERAGE -18dFS and can peak 3-6dB higher, even 8 or 10dB maybe on occasion.. with no issue at all. In fact, that's pretty much what you're looking for... but staying away from 0dBFS and not even threatening it.
If you have to be conservative on your gains, have trouble getting the channel faders (and especially vocals) anywhere in the ballpark of unity before it's just WAY too frickin' loud and no way to do it if you brought the input gains up to average -18DbFS... and your Master is at or around unity... Then you like have system gain problems somewhere following the channels, or following the mixer itself (like amps/powered speakers/DSP running too hot). That's not... "a little loud for the room" loud I'm talking about where you knock 3dB or 6dB off the master fader and it's good... I'm talking WAY WAY too loud where 3-6dB off the master fader would just be a drop in the bucket of getting the volume to a reasonable level, and feedback could also be an issue. Those are signs of system gain downstream of the channels being off.
Fellow engineer here. Most of the time keeping your fader around unity gives you the finest control over the volume of the specific channel where as having it at say -30db and going up or down will dramatically change the volume. As for the gain on say a sm58. I tend to hover around the 32db mark (depending on if I am analog or digital split). This number honestly depends on the system and how its configured more than anything.
Gain first, fader position second. The fade should land wherever it needs to.
What name this digital mixer nice
Midas M32 is the mixer.
Hi, Do you always soundcheck with your mains at 0dB?
Yes. I might lower it for the show, or the show start and maybe bring it up... But the system is gained so that the main should be riding at 0dB (unity) as a solid baseline.
change your drumkit mics to audix or senneiser e600 series. you will see a big difference. sorry, i forgot also the DPA and SE. i will rank it from 1. DPA, 2. Audix, 3. Sennheiser, 4. SE
Is there no one replying to this comment? We are changing our drum mics N considering sure n seinheissers
@@ericnzuki90 go for sennheiser, the e600 series.
Is that an older VTC Pro line array?
Yes, it is
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Love VTC!
You can post any copyright protected matter if you add the copyright holder(s) into the notes. However it needs some researching. There's a tons of cover versions of famous songs on YT.
It's a can of worms though. The only right (legal) answer for a video that I don't want blocked, limited in reach, copyright claimed, or getting a channel copyright strike, is to not even open that door.
I do have some cover songs on YT and they are copyright claimed. But in those cases, the song is the point of the video and I'm OK with all of that. But an educational/infotainment style video where the song itself is not the point, and that I spent hours creating and editing is not one I want to risk.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio k