No Room In Electrical Panel - Quick Fix
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2024
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There is a right way and a wrong way to combine 2 circuits into 1 breaker. This can also be different depending on what brand panel you have installed. Joel Walsman from Jefferson Electric out of Indianapolis, Indiana is going to jump in and make sure we perform this work safely and according to code.
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Glad you brought in a knowledgeable pro. Also remember if you do make space and add a new circuit that it has to be an afci combo breaker for new circuit or modified existing 120v circuits
Just searched for this topic the other day to add a heat pump water heater but needed more panel space. Well done.
Thanks Pete 👍
Joel you always do such a great and professional job of explaining your work, kudos!! I have learned so much from your channel, ditto with Scott!
Thank you for showing that some Homeline's can use 2 wires and also a thanks to whoever pointed out that overloading the neutral was a possibility. I just combined a few very lightly loaded lighting/doorbell/motion detector light circuits to make room for a 240 V 40 Amp Dual Car charger breaker pair. Not related, but I'm replacing 50 year old IDC connectors in my modular home with UL rated DIN rail terminal blocks as I've had two open hots in 6 months.
I'd like to know who wires them things shit like that happens all the time
The subpanel in my home (Eaton BR) has all spaces with rejection tabs but you can get Non-CTL twin breakers that fit into those spaces without field modification. The panel was listed as 20 breakers and 40 circuits so it was designed to have all twin breakers but you have to use the Non-CTL (circuit total limitation) breakers.
Most modern square D homeline, qo, and qob panels are listed for two circuits per breaker space. It's a code violation to use tandem breakers in panels that are so old that they listed the number of circuits the same as the number of spaces. Although square d b 15-30 amp breakers are listed for two wires per terminal, the cafci, dafci, and GFCI breakers are not. Also, good luck finding cafci, dafci, and GFCI breakers in tandem formats. Finally, if you are combining loads leaving a space for a future circuit, it's ok to leave the breaker in its side space as a spare. You don't have to prematurely remove the breaker, you can leave the old breaker until you're ready to replace it with the new breaker.
Siemens makes AFCI 1-pole tandem breakers. But you're right, don't count on finding a GFCI or dual tandem.
I Prefer to leave the unused breaker in place. The little slot covers to fill empty knockouts are crappy and come loose. Also, if you leave the empty breaker in place, remember to tighten the wire lug screw snug. I was helping a friend one time and there was a breaker with no screw in a slot. God knows what happened but I don't want any loose metallic objects in the power box...
Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
You didn't warn moving around breakers that are part of 3 wire circuits. Older codes did not require them to have a common handle and ity it unusual to find 2, single pole breakers used. The 2 breakers must be next to each other and can't be on the same tandom unless it's a quad. Failing to obey these rules can lead to an overload neutral and a possible fire.
He started to mention that but forgot to talk about it. That's why he say there were 3 solutions, but then skipped over numby3.
@@clayrichard8471 you forgot the warning that you must use a listed handle tie if you tie the breaker handles together for circuits that share a neutral.
Joel’s channel is awesome too! I have learned a lot from both of you.
One thing you did not cover when combining circuits is if you have MWBC multi wire branch circuits you can't combine both phases on the same phase by using tandem if pigtails because you will overload the neutral.
Lower loads on LED vs incandescent lighting circuits is not something I had considered. Thanks!
You bet!
Be careful about connecting two wires to a breaker many municipalities do not allow two wires on the same breaker , So if you need additional space for a breaker , You're better off taking two breakers out and replacing with a tandem breaker
Yup.. not just load..its safety
But if breaker trips more areas dark....
@@ironmartysharpe8293 Do those municipalities still forbid it even if the breaker is designed for two wires, such as the SqD QO?
Scott & Joel - longtime viewer of both of your channels. Great content as always, I especially liked the tip about tandem breaker and how it is only permitted in specified slots. Never used one and wouldn't have known.
Hey Daniil, we both appreciate your support 👍👍
In many panels tandem breakers aren't allowed in any slot, period.
They say if so.
@@massengineer7582 In other panels, tandems are allowed in all slots. They're not my favorite to use, because they're a little fussy, but they do provide a neat solution int he right circumstances.
Hi Dear.i am domestic electrical technician.and
Thank you for the information. I had a specialist from the local guild say I basically needed to demolish the house and start over with a new service. not kidding.
Great information, the only thing I would suggest is placing the feed wire in the center position of the Wago connector, that way the effective current flow through the busbar is reduced by sending it in two different directions.
What????
I wouldn't use them at all should be illegal. There isn't enough wire contact with push in wiring could cause an arc and burn the end of the tab on the connector witch is being over heated melt the connector bam 🔥 Fire
@@richardcollejr.5121Wago 221 connectors are rated for the full current allowed by the breaker. Otherwise they would not be allowed in junction boxes either.
@@richardcollejr.5121So what do you use then? Wire nuts?
Two comments. After Joel opened the exterior disconnect switch he failed to verify the service was dead. Never skip that step if you are relying on a dead panel. I've see numerous older disconnects that have internally failed and don't open all phases. Kudos for the gloves and glasses Joel. Many DIY channels don't have a clue about NFPA 70E. A word of caution about multiwire branch circuits because older installations don't necessarily have them protected by a two pole breaker which is now required by code. Be sure to pair circuits on the same side of the box to avoid potential neutral burnout.
Agreed; he should have shown verifying the panel was cold. I'd assume most watchers don't know how to do that either. Are shared loads on a neutral typically a risk in residential? Neutrals are generally home-runs with the leg w/romex, assuming we're discussing 14/2 lighting circuits, etc. I also cringe at a wago pigtail in a panel. I'm a fan of wagos, but I wouldn't use one at the front of a circuit. I'd reserve this practice for OCPD's that directly allow for two conductors.
@@bluemarinoni My house was built in 1984 and is chock full of multiconductor branch circuits and none of them were on a two pole breaker. It appears it was quite common to run a single 12/3 to a remote location then branch. When I added my subpanel for my generator I converted the multiconductor circuits to two pole breakers.
@@williamrucki9293 Copy. I'm feeling like this is too big of a learning curve for most DIY'ers... even my 2006 home has lighting circuits mixed with outlets; I haven't finished mapping it yet, we all know the labels aren't right! Resorting a panel is non-trivial. I have to question if this video is appropriate to show. There's too much to go wrong.
@@bluemarinoni Agreed. When I sorted everything to move circuits to a generator subpanel and clean up the multiconductor branch circuits I literally pulled all 40 breakers out and started over. I’m not sure the typical DIYer is ready for that.
@@bluemarinoni
Excellent description/ video shots thankyou.
Thank you for this very much needed clip.
This got me thinking how I could improve my panel. Never thought about this method. Fantastic! I really like Joel's channel as well. Wish I could hire him as my local electrician.
Dont , hes a jack of all trades, master of none.
Improve my panel, there is a whole lot of usa education in that statement.
That has nothing to do with “improving” your panel it is just gaining an extra space .
@@soisaidtogod4248 Shut up, Snow Mexican 🙄
@@gerdberg4188 Gaining room for an additional circuit sounds like quite an improvement to me.
Great colab for valuable info. 👍
Thx man!
Very informative as all of your videos are, Thanks!
I just straightened out my breaker box. There were several breakers with 2 circuits on them yet there was a double breaker and a single breaker that were no longer in use. What they were originally connected to was no longer there (240v wall heater and a welI pump). I was able to label everything and every circuit had its own breaker when I got done. I also straightened out my neutral bus bar, many spots were double tapped, even triple tapped! The bar was slightly discolored where it had been triple tapped and the insulation on the ends of those wires slightly melted from overheating. There were a dozen or more open spaces so there was no excuse for this. I moved down 1 wire at a time, starting with the longest wire and turning off the corresponding breaker(s) before doing so. Everything reached just fine, each neutral wire now under their own lug. I tested every outlet in my house, all good and grounded. Crisis diverted, now I don't have to worry about my house burning down.
Load balancing on the phases (legs) is also worth doing if you start moving breakers around. Just something to keep in mind.
Agreed, very important especially if you have a backup generator. You can lose tremendous generator capacity due to poor balancing.
Thanks for the feedback 👍
Just like with FritzM above, I 100% agree with keeping the panel balanced ...... damn sure not always done.
Also look for situations of two circuits with a shared neutral, which are usually flagged by having a 14/3 with red/black hot wires. If they're on different phases that's fine because the neutral will balance out. If you start shuffling things in the panel you need to be sure they stay on _different_ phases.
@@DaveMethvin another very important point. Videos like this can be dangerous in the hands of the unknowing diyer. Hopefully these comments help explain things a little further.
Just a safety concern and hint! When you turn off the main switch, which may be remote from the panel, please “lockout and tag out” the main switch so someone doesn’t see the power out and throw the main switch back on! Lock it out with a padlock!
Yesly..
Dawg relax he dah pro pro
I did wonder why panels that are clearly for indoors only have a knockout for a lock
@@nameless-og dawg beef 😤 🤣 what r u zayen
@como dice next to the handle/latch, there is usually a knockout where you can install a cabinet style lock. It never made sense to me why anyone would want to lock a panel closed that clearly isn't supposed to be installed outside. That feature made sense to me if the box can be mounted outside, otherwise, it just seems crazy to have it on the box because it seems risky, was surprised to learn here that it's actually the opposite
Ahhh yes, the maxed out electrical panel! When I bought my house, my outdoor panel had "the big stuff" - HVAV systems (2 of them), drop in stove, in wall oven, pool pump, water heater, clothes dryer, and a 60 amp breaker feeding a tiny-ass sub in the garage for the inside. Small panel with 23 of 24 half-inch spaces in use.
I had future plans for a tankless water heater (electric the only option in our area), maybe a workshop in the garage. I feel the pain with this video. Having been a licensed electrician at one time, upgrading the panel was easy. But I know not everyone can do that and the thought of dropping a couple grand to have a new panel added is daunting.
Luckily the garage feed was the standard service entrance wire in the wall which allowed me to pull the entire panel out if the wall cavity and there was enough slack for me to move it out of they way so I could retrofit the cavity with a larger panel fed by a conduit all the way out to the exterior main.
Now I have a 200 amps sub panel in the garage with plenty of space.
First time I have seen a video like this. Very helpful!!! ⚡️
Thanks!
I have a CH panel from the 80’s and the twin breakers slip in any of the slots - at least I’ve not had to force anything. The thing I notice on twin breakers is the hole for the wire is hard to feel out in the panel. CH panels are pretty narrow due to long breakers. Great video.
Yes I was there to on my parents estate.
This is because the CH panels use a copper bussbar set, and can handle more loading than the BR panel in the video’s aluminum buss…
@@whochecksthis I do like the more robust bus but I’m not sure it’s as popular these days.
Different configurations of panels. Many are 20/40 in which every slot accepts a tandem. The one in the video is a 30/40, where 10 slots can accept tandems. 40 slot panels do not accept tandems at all.
@@darrendolphdragos9752 Did they have tandem breakers in 1986? I assume the issue has more to do with the bus ability to handle the load and the panel having enough room such as neutral/ground bars.
Keep in mind, AFCI neutrals are monitored. You won’t be able to combine if one or two breakers are currently AFCI protected. Unless you find your second neutral and pigtail like you did for the hots.(If you put under AFCI)
This guy lives in yesterday ….
That's a good point because with the 2020 nec it is bssically requiring and afci for every circuit in the panel.
@@ericstandefer9138 we have been like that since 2015 in Canada. Takes up a lot more space in the panel and significantly increases the cost of panel install.
Didn't you see the breaker?
@@gerdberg4188 you hit the nail on the head with your comment.
I love these videos... I repeat it's like going back to the 1970s the standards in the USA compared to the UK..
Great vid! Valuable information
At about 4:27, it looked like the wire had been deformed from being tightened in the breaker. I like to straighten the end before reconnecting. Wago splices can handle a bit of bend, but work best with a straight wire. Also, check for proper strip length.
@@Kevin-mp5of occasionally, shortness of the wire involved precludes restriping.
The Knipex pliers wrench works well for completely straightening out even fully twisted wire nutted wiring for use in lever lock connectors; minimizes continual cutback of the wire for reworking circuits.
Very useful information. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated.
You bet!
This video came in handy! Thanks
TH-cam is the best!!!!! Great Video ..thank you
I've ran into this problem many times
somebody will ask me to install an additional circuit and there's no space in the panel for another breaker ,
So I'll take out two breakers and replace them with a tandem breaker to obtain the extra space I need , I'll remember the notching on the Eaton panels but other panels I've had no problems installing tandem breakers
Keep in mind that not all brands of panels have tandem breakers available and if that's the case , A sub panel will have to be installed
One very important thing is before installing a breaker is to inspect the busbar for pitting or corrosion , If the busbar looks good , Before installing the breaker I'll apply a light coat of antioxidant compound that you would use for connecting aluminium wire to the busbar to prevent corrosion because in just about all breaker panels , The busbars are aluminium and applying antioxidant compound will prevent corrosion , Also make sure the breaker has a tight fit to the busbar when installing
Siemens and Homeline do that as well. it's because it used to be a code requirement that a breaker panel have no more than 42 breakers.
Thanks a bunch for this video. I didn’t know you could pigtail off of a breaker. You learn something new everyday. Thanks again!
Check your local code before pig tailing.
@@johnbattista9519 I would presume that local codes are not that granular. My town just adopts the NEC wholesale with just one modification - a big one; they don't allow Romex, conduit only.
@@johnbattista9519 yeah, using a panel as a junction box has never been something I knew to be code approved.. But who's gonna catch you unless your house burns down and they deny your insurance claim 👏😅
@@KameraShy When do you think your locality will get public power and Internet service--they sound a little behind?
@@johnbattista9519 where can I find my local code? It’s not as simple as looking in the nec code book. Is it?
Best in the Business, literally have never heard of this guy before.
Where ya been 🙂
I used to install gas station eq. I lost track of how many PROFFESSONAL electricians would wire
the cash register inside the store to L1 & all or some of the pumps outside to L2. Someone would
turn on the regular #3 pump & 240vac would go to the pump relay & !POW! a flash & some smoke.
So I got into the habit of checking all the wiring at each pump BEFORE I applied power. Good times.
!
Definitely CHECK THE LOCAL CODES....many jurisdictions do NOT allow amalgamating circuits together and most DO NOT permit any sort of splices or inter-connections within a panel.
Yeah, the pigtail and all the wire nuts in that panel would get it red tagged. Also, zip ties in the panel are considered bundling and gets red tagged as well.
So practically speaking, rat's nest wiring is best for heat dissipation compared to OCDishly neat wiring run bundling, aesthetic pleasantness aside -
Very concise and accurate video. I am a retired electrician of 19 years and an Electrical Inspector for 21 years doing the smallest of jobs on to 1000 foot high rises. My only problem is that you made it sound as though as long as there were still spaces left, you could just keep adding circuits without regarding the load. That's like saying "How could I be out of money, I still have checks left". When electric cars were first coming out, I saw many a fake load calculations and turned down at least half of them. It didn't take long before the contractors figured out how to do an accurate load calculation, and perhaps make a few extra bucks changing the 100 service to a 200 amp service.
Good job with all the other details though, spot on.
Load balancing also needs to be considered
I think that applies to the grid as well. States mandating electric cars but not saying how all the electricity is going to be generated and distributed.
where are you that people spend the extra for 100A services?
@@KameraShy Conversely, I have wondered about solar system that back feed the grid. When I put my system on, it was rather large to accommodate my electric vehicles. Now, most electric vehicles in California charge between 11pm and 7am because they cut the time of use billing to 1/2 to 1/4 of other times. There is no significant load on the grid at this time. With a lot of electric cars, the load may become significant, but not overly so. With Solat though, I noticed on my street on the same transformer that there were 3 of us with very large solar systems. What happens if there becomes many more? My house would pump in 40 amps on those sunny days, or about 7kw. What if half the houses on that transformer did this? It may well come to a point where the grid could not handle the reverse flow. The solution of course is start installing batteries to balance the grid during the day charging local batteries and then using that power as needed to create a virtual power plant as Tesla is now doing with powerwall owners. Or even as simple as all the power I made during the day when usage was low to charge the car at night. Although this solution sounds expensive, in a 20 year amortization, it is actually cheaper. Just thought I would share some thoughts.
@@KameraShy It's one of two reasons why electrical cars cannot become widespread given today's generation and grid capacity. You'll see states and electric companies crack down on that soon.
GREAT INFO, THANK YOU!!!
I actually didn't know about the disallowed tandem slots on Eaton panels. Thanks.
Six years ago I converted every indoor and outdoor light to LED to save money. Then six years ago I had a ground based solar panel system installed on our lower property. It has a perfect Southern exposure on the 40 degree down slope. It paid for itself in four years because it generates 27 mWh of power per year for our 3 AC units (14 ton total capacity). We can run the AC 24x7 and in the last six years have never paid an electric bill. It was the best investment in my life and highly recommend doing this even though the original 30% tax credits are gone.
It's still 26% I'm fairly certain, it's been extended again. I got in on 2019 for the 30% then 26% in 2020 on a smaller array.
Good to know. We went on NEM 1.0 in late 2016. The most expensive single part of the solar installation was upgrading the circuit breaker panel from 200 amp to 400 amps to handle potentially 200 amps from the utility side and 200 amp from the solar side at the same time. This is the worst case scenario that never happens but for fire insurance purposes we wanted to be safe in case there was a post fire incident report denying our insurance.
@@pauljones3866 that's a huge array. I have 22 panels to generate 9mWh per year which is just about enough for my house + EV 9,000 miles a year.
Solar and LEDs...
2 technologies that fail often...
Those stupid LEDs NEVER make it anywhere close to their rated lifespan.
And I know several people who installed solar and they are constantly under repair. 1 person has had to replace 4 panels in just 6 months time.
I'll take a hard pass on both until they actually work...
@@billymacktexasdetective5827 your anecdote is not indictive of actual rates.
So, options 1 & 2 are both code violations in Canada. Also randomly combining lighting circuits can also be code violation . In Canada, maximum number of lights per 15 amp circuit is still 12 regardless of lamp type.
Canada is a beautiful country. Unfortunately you need to rewire your leader
Not sure rewiring is a viable option. Sometimes replacement of defective equipment is the only option....leaders too!
nice info. my city went stupid a few decades ago my having all newer homes designed with the breaker box outside the house next to the meter, rather then the older way of in utility closet or garage.
I was surprised seeing that in other localities; not sure why that would be done. Saving space in the house? I only see disadvantages to the practice, accelerated degradation, external tampering, having to run outside in the weather to reset a tripped breaker, and probably many other things.
Super very nice video ,thanks!!
Thats a perfect way to get an overload, also looks like there a bunch of slots on the bottom left
Another option in the case of needing to expand a two pole breaker is a quad breaker. We use them a lot when installing car chargers. Another point, make sure you are keeping to the same phase if you have shared neutrals.
@GW2016 how do you mean keep to the same phase if you have shared neutrals? That’s how you overload a neutral, ex 12/3 on a tandem breaker is putting two ckts on one phase and over loading the neutral. You have to have the two hots of a multi wire on different phases with a shared neutral or if using two 12/2 ckts on a tandem each ckt would have to have its own neutral when sharing one phase
@@ryanbowles5158 I took it to mean when combining 2 hots right next to each other vertically . They were previously on opposite legs of the 240 volt feed.
So would be best to do this in even numbers of breakers for final . . . assuming the phase load was balanced to begin with . . . ergo the op means do not mess up the phase load as was prior ?
Excellent video.
I love the newer panels with smarts!!
One little safety tip. While he mentioned opening the main switch, I always use a neon lamp to ensure what I'm working on is dead.
Hey James, You able to explain this one?
@@Sonny_Allgood ????
You mean the neon lamp? I'm referring to those neon test lamps that can be used to see if a circuit is live or not. A neon lamp will work on a wide range of voltages and if it glows when placed across a circuit or between a conductor and ground, then the circuit is live It can also be used to determine if the power is AC or DC and if DC, polarity. It can also detect when there's significant radio energy in the vicinity. It's a very useful device that you can keep in your pocket, like a pen.
On example of when I used it was a few years ago, when my outlaws had a dead outlet. I used the neon lamp to verify where there was or was not power, until I found a dud fuse.
Use a real tester , static can light up a neon one
@@gerdberg4188 It might flash with static, but it won't stay lit.
Hey it's your life if you want to use substandard testing methods .
Where I come from, there are no splices allowed in a sub panel. The inspector would have shutoff the main panel until that was fixed.
I put it a 60 amp 12 branch as i took out the 1950 fused panel. I also added lots of new circuits
Thank you for this tip -
While I recognize the power was off as stated early on, "turn off the service disconnect", there are some bad habits in this video. Such as touching the uninsulated screwdriver with fingers. Yes, I know the power was off and the hand had a rubber type glove but it's a bad habit in electrical work none the less. As is placing your fingers near the buss bar, again, I realize power was off but it's a bad habit. I was always taught to treat every circuit as if it were a live circuit. It only takes one mistake.
If I recall Siemens makes a copper buss 40 slot panel which is great for adding space. Although it will still require the cost of changing the panel.
Yes, it only takes 1 mistake! Years ago I needed to work in the panel but was unable to turn off the incoming power because of a non-cooperative landord in NYC. I thought I was being careful, but not careful enough! Used needlenose pliers and it accidentally shorted something. A big flash, loud electrical pop, and a nice deep slot etched into the pliers! Scary stuff.
@@KpxUrz5745 Yeah, a panel, energized or not, is no place to be touching metal objects and not paying sharp attention to who and what is grounded. I get that this guy knows what's up but he's speaking to people who don't know. So showing them bad habits is not a good idea. The average home owner should stay out of panels if they don't know what is going on inside.
just like a gun, always loaded !!!
Outstanding 😊🇺🇸🫡😊🇺🇸😊😊😊 answered a lot of questions especially concerning piggybacking CB’s and where tandem breakers can be installed nice work 🎉a very well done presentation 🫡🇺🇸😊
You don’t mention to make sure if you combine or rearrange circuits you don’t end up having two circuits that may be sharing a neutral on the same phase in the panel. This occurs when a three wire Romex is used to power two circuits and sharing the neutral.
For real, why would someone do that? I had a shared neutral in my barn and the insulation was damaged.
This was a very low effort, not well thought out video and it should not be aimed at DIYers. It touched on many complex issues, homeowners and DIYers should not be attempting to make these kinds of modifications.
I removed several baseboard heaters that were no longer used. This freed up space for my mini splits.
interesting, we're about to do that at our farmhouse that we're renovating. It has old baseboard electric heaters that we're taking out. My wife detests the look of mini splits, but they are the wave of the future.
@@replyhere590 quick way to freed up space on the panel. One quote I got was to install a larger electrical panel, $$$. Needless to say I didn’t got that route.
What about siemens (well...old ITE) panels using qp or qt type breakers built before the total circuit limiting rules? That's how I learned about CL rules and had to find non CL breakers($36 for NCL vs $16 for CL)to add a dedicated circuit for a microwave. Rejection tab really screwed me up that day trying to add the tandem single pole breaker.
I was concerned that my house was tapped out on 200 amp service because I wanted to install On-Demand water heating. I started tracing lines to realize that roughly 30% were installed by an idiot. For instance: The doorbell chime transformer had its own dedicated 20 amp breaker…
" The doorbell chime transformer had its own dedicated 20 amp breaker…"
What kind of music did it play?
@@teekay_1 Symphonic.
I am tapped out at 200 amps... if my heat, well, septic, dryer, hot water, dishwasher, heater all kick in, welder , blame 200 Amp main shuts down... can't get the power company to up me to 400 amps gerrr. .... lol smart panel we only have dsl where I am. 1mps... unless you go to a Sat system. Rural places are stuck in the 80s.
I maxed out my panel by running light circuits. The inspector counts the circuits in the panel and records it. Now If I add new circuits or load the curcuit I don't need the inspection or the permit. Lot less headache. Might be the reason for the doorbell
Brilliant teaching homeowners how to get themselves into trouble with their electrical systems. Priceless.
Your comment needs several thousand 'likes'. And I'm a tradesman (HVAC/R) licensed to do equipment specific electrical work up to 600 VAC/DC. A little bit of knowledge is always a recipe for unperceived hazards and unwarranted 'confidence'. And with electricity those misapprehended hazards can be the wrath of God.
know enough to be dangerous lol
It would be appreciated and useful if you could point out the dangerous misinformation in this video. I'm a homeowner who intends to move some circuits around.
How lol!!! Youre Just another troll!! Trolling
@keifsanderson Check what I said in the main comments, I'm sure I saw the same issues as @mattlewis383 so I pointed them out with explanations, and gave 3 proper options, and I'm pretty sure the inspector still wins on the 2 wires under 1 breaker @ 2:20
*one other problem I didn't mention in my other comment was that he says at 2:30 he's combining bedroom and exterior lights, here in Canada, new bedrooms are on an arc fault breaker, and it's best to only have plugs on an arc fault, as the spark from a switch closing, (although in this case a photocell firing, probably no spark) or from certain bulbs/ballasts firing, that spark can cause nuisance tripping on AF breakers, just FYI
Great video, i am getting a generator and wanted to install an interlock kit but the top right side of my panel where a double pole 30A would go is taken up by 2 15A single pole breakers. (actually seeing bow the top right 3 are AFCI breakers). I need to either relocate or do something to make room for a new 30A double poll so I can wire it to my outlet for my generator plug.
Ive heard people mention something about shared neutrals or something so not sure if i could just move those 15A AF breakers to the bottom or what...
Fabulous fabulous video Scott! Now I'll jump over and subscribe to Joel's Channel as well.
For sure, Joel is a wealth of knowledge and they are really putting out some good stuff 👍
Another note on tandem breakers that I didn’t hear mentioned in the video: if you plan to load the circuit to near capacity, don’t place it in a tandem breaker. The heat generated in the smaller breaker can cause earlier failure of the breaker.
Please tell me how the heat will affect a breaker? There is a coil, a set of contacts, and a spring.. iron core, and silicone liquid.
@@johnbattista9519 as I’m sure you’re aware, running a breaker at, or very near, its current limit will cause the breaker to become very warm. This is by design since they’re designed to thermal trip with extended over-current at roughly 10-15% of their rated capacity. Or they trip instantly with a short. Now consider the greatly reduced physical shell size where heat dissipation is reduced. Any breaker will eventually fail when heat-stressed for long enough. I ran a couple tests many years ago (maybe 25 years?) where I loaded several different brands and sizes of breakers to 95-105% of their rated load. I can tell you the tandem breakers failed long before standard size breakers did. Essentially, they baked themselves. In two of them, the plastic cracked and had signs of charring.
@@johnbattista9519 Most common (non-GFCI/AFCI) breakers are called thermal-magnetic trip. Current passes through BOTH a bi-metal and a coil. The bi-metal (similar to the one in your wall thermostat) monitors "normal current" and will bend away from its contact when heat generated by load current passing through it exceeds the breaker's current rating. This thermal mode protects your wiring from inadvertent overloads and acts slowly (seconds to minutes) depending on the amount of overload.
Conversely, the coil essentially generates no heat but creates a magnetic field due to the current passing through it. Magnetic field intensity is proportional to the RATE OF CHANGE of current creating it. When there is a high-current short on the breaker's load side, the current change through the breaker's coil rises rapidly and 'instantaneously' trips the breaker magnetically. The "instantaneous" trip current is often about 8 - 10 times the rated current and is normally not listed on household type breakers. (However you will usually see "10k A.I.C." on a panel or breaker label. This means '10,000 Amps Interrupt Current' rating and tells you that if the utility could supply 10,000 amps into a short circuit through your breaker, that breaker, by design and testing, could interrupt that current without welding its contacts or exploding. Utility and system engineers use such information to perform a system "Fault and Coordination" study to assure that any electrical power system can cope with overloads and shorts without destroying itself or harming persons and property - which is also the underlying purpose and intent of the National Electrical Code.)
Every breaker's specifications include a set of "inverse time" curves that relate both the instantaneous and thermal times to the amount of overcurrents. These are used by electrical system design engineers to "coordinate" a system's breaker settings. For instance, in a hospital or other critical setting, you would not want the whole 1000 amp system to shut down because of a small short or overload in only one 20 amp circuit.
The panel's supply bus and breaker load wires tend to remove heat from a breaker but heat can still build up in highly-loaded breakers. High temperatures (like 200 degrees F) decompose wood and plastics into charcoal or carbon (known as Pyrolysis) which, like the composition of an electronic circuit's resistor, conducts electricity that then can form a path to ground that generates more heat and more decomposition. Pyrolysis can lower ignition temperatures from over 400 degrees to around 200 degrees over the course of days or weeks, resulting in delayed-ignition fires.
If the breaker is rated for it you can load it . Any breaker running near constant full load will have a shorter life
@@johnbattista9519 do you not think heat affects the performance of the materials individually AND as a system . This is just mechanical parts of an electrical distribution system . Yes site conditions and operating parameters all affect the life of any type mechanical electrical equipment . The more current you pull or push , depending on which way you look at it , the more heat is produced . More heat for most systems equates to a shorter life .
Thanks for the info., great video!
I had one question.
Have you heard of a "Pushmatic" breaker panel? I have a 200 amp Pushmatic breaker panel! It was installed in about 1980 and from my understanding it's no longer made and obsolete!
Any suggestions?
I have Pushmatic in my 1977 house. I had to replace a breaker, and they are hard to find locally. You can order them online more easily.
Most, if not all, electricians would suggest the immediate change out of "Pushmatic" and "Federal Pacific" panels/breakers because the manufacturers lost their electrical certification as a result of past demonstrated failures/fires/problems.
@@billhandymanbill2775 Thanks for the advice! Any suggestions on what name brand of breaker panel would be best?
@@kevinberniebarron7548 Yes I do.... "Square D" brand is the most popular name in the industry, and you can find their breakers in the big box stores too. Square D is a very reputable and safe brand too. I would also suggest putting in a "whole house surge protector in the electrical panel, as now required by NEC code, to protect all of your major household appliances and computers, televisions, microwave, etc. Check with your power company/electrician about putting a 200-amp service panel and that should cover most of your common electrical needs.
@@billhandymanbill2775 Thank you!
As you know, my old 1980 Pushmatic 200 amp breaker panel, definitely needs to be replaced!
That will be my top priority for 2023!
I found this video very informative! I have an older style home that I just moved into. It has one main service panel using circuit breakers, and 2 separate subpanels. Immediately after the main service panel with circuit breakers, is a sub panel with 2 30-amp cartridge fuses in a metal box with metal closing door. After this sub panel is another that is located in the detached garage with 2 20-amp glass fuses. My question to you is about this middle sub panel with 2 cartridge fuses. The box these cartridge fuses are housed in does not have a raised bump to attach a ground wire and screw. Instead, the bare copper wire is just sitting there in mid air. Doesn't that need to be connected to anything? Could I tap a hole in that metal box and attach a green ground screw and wire to that?
Thank you 🙏
You can just tell people to shuffle their breakers around if needed. You didn’t mention phasing. It looks like there are 3 wire circuits in that panel that share a neutral. If you shuffle those circuits around you could potentially cause a dangerous situation where the neutral gets burnt up due to the 2 circuits winding up on the same phase.
If I was an electrician I'd wire my box like this. Very organized and neat. My box is disorganized and lazy.
I used to wire f18 and AV8B testing boxes and always branched them and zip tied them
Me, too! I always route all wires going toward a same direction as neatly organized in branching groups going into more branched groups until the final destination wires are terminated. It's just something I have to do. I guess it started in the Air Navy, working my way up the enlisted ladder, and upon reaching a new base assignment both times, as an Aviation Electrician's Mate, I would support a Squadron of P2 Antisubmarine Warfare/Search and Rescue, twin Radial/Rotary Piston Props with wingtip jet boosters, on the squadron line, maintaining the P2's electrical systems, including wiring bundles, and its various Navigation Systems. Once the Avionics Intermediate Maintenance Department (AIMD) section was completed within the Electricians' Repair Section of AIMD to support the modified-from-an Airliner into the P3A Orion Patrol Aircraft to take over the P2's Mission. I worked on the Analog Computer Navigation/Guidance System and, its backup, the Attitude Heading Reference System, indoors in the A/C. This happened at the beginning of each enlistment, working on the squadron line, briefly, as I waited for AIMD to be ready for my section to be used. Other than a tendency to always do my best, also considering appearance, my neat freak wiring preference probably came from the Navy. What kind of work did you do? I wanted to be an Avionics Electronics Tech, but a high frequency hearing loss prevented that, but my job, rated as an Electrician, still got me working in electronics.
Very informative video.
This video helped me alot i enjoyed itl these are good tips😎
Don't EVER do what is shown in the thumbnail.
Follow Square D recommendations? It's rated for 2 wires to the breaker.
WHY?
@@melvingray5707 probably has no idea why you shouldn't follow the manufacturers safety data.
@@melvingray5707
The possibility of arcing.
The creation of heat.
The creation of potential unnecessary loosening of points of contact.
Creating more branch circuit pathways to result in over current conditions. This is inviting the branch circuit loads via the outlet-receptacles to overload the over current device (the breaker; which will then, if done, have MORE pathways via TOO many cable conductor hots to result in maximum current amps flowing thus throwing the breaker).
Reducing the clamp strength of the screw securement of the conductors under the pressure plate.
Creating a new hazard of loosening from vibration.
Etc....
There should be only ONE hot conductor terminated into the breaker. Do NOT stack two conductors into one breaker under one pressure plate even if it may have a metal pressing that has the seating shape.
There should only be ONE hot conductor terminated to ONE over current protection device.
@@melvingray5707
Such installation is example of shoddy construction that attempts to squeeze every penny out of a dollar. It's also the hallmark of lazy, unintelligent branch circuit wiring planning, load calculations and installation.
Smoke detectors should always be tied to kitchen or bathroom lights ,so you will always know if they are out .
Most detectors have battery backup and will chirp if power goes out
Depends on jurisdiction
@@Sc-jf3yk over and above jurisdiction, I think it’s a good thing to do . My main thing is never home run smoke detectors,yes I know it will beep when the battery backup gets weak ,but if you can’t see in your bath room you will most likely investigate. If your home run smock detector breaker is tripped you won’t know until the beeping.
New powered smokes will always chirp if no power or something not hooked up right. It doesn't wait till the battery is weak.
@@jenko701 and again depends on jurisdiction and inspections. Really doesn't matter what you think. If it's wrong you'll just fail
It is very informative. Thank you ! Will the inspector approve this splicing method? is it legal?
The village I live in does not allow “1/2” size breakers so you can put 2 in one spot. But I did change out my panel and at the bottom has provisions for the smaller size breakers but it doesn’t double up each space.
Smoke detectors must be connected to light load to ensure you notice if they trip by not having light.
that may be a local rule, but it's not a code requirement.
@@kenbrown2808 And some jurisdictions require them to be on a dedicated circuit.
@@WilliamEades_Frostbite a central alarm without a battery backup is required to have a dedicated circuit.
@@kenbrown2808 Here ALL new builds require battery backup and dedicated circuit...Local Codes.
@@WilliamEades_Frostbite and here they'd prefer standard smoke detectors be on a general lighting circuit so a bad resident won't just turn them off and pull the batteries.
I've never seen an electrician shut off all power before removing the cover, but it's good advice.
The downside to combining circuits is that if you turn off the power to do some sort of electrical work is you will turn off a lot more of the house with each breaker. Do yourself a favor and write down everything controlled by the circuit in some detail and tape it inside the box somehow. At a minimum, try to balance both sides of the service.
The best solution, albeit a very expensive one, is to split the service coming into the house into two panels and then you'll have plenty of room for growth. If you get an automatic standby generator, you'll end up doing that anyway.
OSHA requires protective gear to remove a panel cover even if you turn off the panel. Until you verify it. (Nobody does it)
@@hankkline7300 It's good advice and well considered, but as a practical matter, many electricians doing a branch circuit in an existing panel will wire a breaker first and then snap it into the live panel, unless they're doing a major rewire. They they'll shut the whole thing down.
@@hankkline7300 OSHA doesn't have jurisdiction over homeowners or farmers with under 12 employees.
@@Sc-jf3yk Who mentioned OSHA?
@@hankkline7300 you did
Thanks for this useful information. Would that be possible to tandem 2 X 40amps? Connecting a home ev charging station with a pool heat pump on the same breaker? Do we need a physical switch or or the power switch automatically when you turn on of the device? Thanks for your help!
thanks for the video, Scott! HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper.
The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one.
My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
1. I've never heared an electrician or read any publication that advises homeowners to enter a panel.
2. You skip all the way around ampacity and current amperage load.
3. Available wire lenfth in the panel might not be sufficient to allow much shuffling if any.
I could write pages of what these guys don't (actually can't) tell people in these DIY videos.....they are so anxious to tell what they know but ignore the many things only experience can give to the viewers. They are like Fathers and Uncles spreading disinformation, LoL. (I got that line from Click and Clack 😆)
@@fritzmiller9792
I 100% agree with all you said. They give just enough to get people in trouble; then those people are shocked by the cost for someone else to come in now.
C’mon. All your doing is jerry-rigging to accommodate new circuits. Do the job right and put in a sub-panel or just rip that one out and put in a bigger one. If you guess wrong you could seriously overload a circuit and leave the customer with a problem they paid not to have.
Everything he said is accurate and absolutely the right way to do it to the point of load capacity.
My smoke detectors have to be on a separate 15amp circuit by code where I am, smh. It doesn’t make sense, but that’s what they wanted when I re-wired the house. Thankfully I used gas appliances and heating to offset the electrical load from the panel. Without doing that, I would have just simply ran out of room on the panel I have. Very educational video though, thank you for posting!!
I have a older home and installed new gas water heater, gas dryer and finally gas stove Removing the electric appliances opening up several spots in my box
Do not follow this advice! The way that was shown in the video can easily overload the neutral capacity for the 2 circuits combined depending on how the house was wired initially. The proper, safe, and code compliant way to do this requires more knowledge and experience than represented. If you need to make space in your panel it can be done, but it needs to be done correctly. This is a oversimplification of a common problem. Follow at your own risk. 25 year licensed master electrician.
That should have been addressed in the video. Probably shared neutral. They did that, back then. Like my house. My understanding (DIYer) is that shared neutrals should NOT be on the same phase.
Never believe the know it all guy. "Gonna show you something pro's don't know" 🚩🚩🚩
Is that notch for tandem breakers universal? We have an old house with only a handful of slots in the 100-amp panel. There are already some tandem breakers in it and I'd like to know if they are safe and whether I can use more. We are converting over to LEDs, so combining lights and lightly-used rooms will help me get more efficient use of our limited service.
good video!
A full circuit panel may not have enough neutrals can you set up a pig tail arrangement with neutrals or will you overload the neutral piggy back wire?
Electric pro Academy is awesome, Great to see Joel here!
Good job budd
Not sure if you mention this in the video and I missed it or not. Are wagyu connectors okay for every panel or does your panel have to state that they are acceptable?
Well done thank you
No problem 👍
i make squareD panels at my factory i also used it at home when i rewired my whole house love em! never seen them pigtails though i will have to check into them
Ugh my house is a mess 1990 Las Vegas builder special, ive got kitchen outlets tied in with dining room lights breaker,I literally have 3 breakers for my kitchen..not to mention when I replaced the GFCI in kitchen it wasn't wired properly and wasn't even working.Cant wait to change the one in garage im sure that is messed up too .I have to replace whole panel soon its been rotting outside in the vegas sun for 30+years, and one breaker keeps tripping under load so that's concerning ,great video for all the folks out there thank you
Ya... you shouls have your electrical checked out sooner rather then later. Doesn't sound good
@@Kevin-mp5of You Still high AF aren't you?
A constantly tripping breaker is an indicator of an issue. Either wiring or a device on the circuit. Either one could start a fire.
@@WilliamEades_Frostbite im thinking its the wiring i replaced the outlet and its fine,replaced a 30 year old back stabbed from builder.Once I get back to work from my surgery and get some money coming back in im having the whole system gone through its a mess..and its better then the plumbing lol
@@Troy-McClure81 If one was back stabbed, then it's a good bet that they are ALL that way, including the switches. What I did in my home when I bought it was over the course of a few weekends, power down one room at a time and swap every device from back stab to side screw as I too had power issues. The next thing I did was to re-torque every connection in the Main Panel. The number of loose terminals there was amazing. The last thing was to call in for a "Cut Seal" authorization, pull the meter and retorque all the Service Feed Terminals in both the Meter base and the House Panel. I found a couple of loose terminals there as well. What the point here is that the older the home, the more likely that thermal cycling from current load over time has caused the wire under the terminals to deform and "Loosen" in relation to the connection. So the first thing I do on a call for Trip or fluctuation problems is to check the terminal torque on everything in the panel. You would be amazed at the number of times I've found the problem is nothing more than a loose breaker terminal.
Have they updated the NEC for the number of fixtures on a lighting circuit due to the use of led lights or the elimination of incandescent's?
field modifications!! LOL. nice euphimism for cutting the stop tab with a hacksaw. Can you say Bryant Quad?
When you made that joint in the box that was a violation, because the panel is not listed as a junction box. You could create a hazard situation here by combining the two wires , if both wires are listed as 20 amp circuits, and you put the two together then you have two 20 ampere circuits under one 20 ampere breakers.
So about to install SquareD whole house surge protector. Requires double pole 20 amp breaker.
I only have a single slot at the bottom of my Cutler-Hammer panel. House is 22 years old. Panel has other tandem breakers in it already.
My electrician says to use a quad or twin 20A amp breaker.
Would this only protect 1 leg of the panel?
Love mist Square D products. Could not get an answer at a continuing education class if you can install say a #14 guage wire on left side of a Square D single pole 15 amp breaker and a#12 or 10 guage on other side. Sone sparkies believe both wires have to be the same guage but I don't think so.
Push lock connections suck. I had push lock receptacles in the house I was renting and I got curious so I checked the receptacles and found 3 that had gotten loose and melted the insulation back about 3" into the wall. Damn near burned the house down. I've also done maintenance for 20 years and seen lots of problems with push lock style connectors. Each to their own but wire nuts are great if you learn how to use them properly and pull on the wires when you're done to make sure they're secure. Wire nuts also provide a lot more surface to surface contact for the wires than the WAGO style do.
Smart panels are awesome. We sell solar powered battery backup systems and now we can put many more circuits on the back up load panel because when the power goes out and you have a smart panel you can choose which circuits you need energized and which circuits you can shut off. I can literally go on my phone and check to see that my battery is 90% full and then I will go ahead and energize the air conditioner for two hours. For example.
Can a panel be added next the existing panel and if so, how big (how many space - 24, 42, more)?
I have a 50 amp breaker at the top of my panel box for electric range can i add a 30-50 Tandem in that spot to run a generator interlock switch?