Ranting About Mary Sues for 31 minutes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- Now, before you hit that dislike button, gimme a chance to explain cause I actually DEFEND Korra from being a Mary Sue in this.
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In case you're wondering why you're seeing this video again, it's because TH-cam unfairly slammed the video by removing it from the search results, shadow banning it, and THEN AGE RESTRICTING IT.
Just gimme a chance!
Warning: Spoilers for Jojo Part 4/5, Legend of Korra, and Star Wars. If you can't read this, then that's your problem, not mine.
Also, added some DLC for you guys for this.
0:00 - Why is this video here again?
0:33 - Introduction
1:15 - Skipping the introduction
2:38 - What is a Mary Sue?
5:21 - What does the Scouter Say? (Legend of Korra)
10:04 - Ma-Rey-Suuuuuuuuuuuue (Star Wars)
18:35 - The Great Triggering (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure)
23:02 - DLC CONTENT
27:37 - Why People Like these Characters
30:16 - ONE MORE THING!!!
31:09 - Credits
Edited by: KaiserTrigger - / kaisertrigger
Thanks to Feghost for additional editing stuffs: / channel
End Credit theme: • VS 1010 WITH LYRICS - ...
#JojosbizarreAdventure #legendofkorra #starwars - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
The way I see it, a Mary Sue/Marty Stu are a character that it feels like the world literally revolves around them to the point that preexisting rules will be broken in their favor.
Will admit that I wrote this before you started talking about StarWars.
@@aries7292
Hilariously enough 😆 the bland sounding name “Rey” is a name given to her that actually means “King” in Spanish with cognates to the Latin “Rex” and Sanskrit “Rajah”; Monte-rey-Mountain King
It gives you a clue that she has this immense strength “in the Force” that she cannot control herself due to a lack of experience with such abilities even though she is said to be a “scavenger” -on survival mode and has to go somewhere else to a certain someone where she can learn HOW to control her own “Force abilities” better; that is just one expectation of Rey’s character development right? But did it REALLY happened in the 3 movies for the Sequel trilogy? Does it REALLY have meaningful significance, if that were really the case where she can learn from her mistakes and not repeat them?
Basically main characters.
@@anlexaify If every single main character was like Rey, or My Immortal's main character, then sure.
So Korra still fits it. Yaknow. How uncorporeal previous life phisically touched her. How one bloodebender can lock away bending but another blood bender can't lock up it back. How she didn't even need to reach her spiritual understanding for airbending with which she struggled from the beginning and just... pucnhed an air. How it's a tradition for Avatars to know that they are avatar in 16 because they won't know about it and yet a toddler was able to bend three elements in a basic level.
Why does “Yes. She cries, then gets touched by Aang.” Sound so wrong?
Only if you have a dirty mind
He touched her with His Noodly Appendages.
Idk how you can even make it dirty
Conditioning by the internet. lol.
WHAT THE FUDGESICLE
OSP made a great argument that Mary Sues are when the character is the center of the universe and no other character is given a chance to shine. Every other character's character is based on the sue.
Same here
By that definition, Steven Universe could be classified as a Gary Stu.
@@akiiame_ Well, he kinda is, that's actually a pretty common criticism of his character. Tons of people do think he's a Gery Stu.
@@trakar3501 I’ve never heard that. I’ve watched a ton of critical videos and haven’t seen anything calling him that.
@@knightgale2120 I saw it on Tumblr mostly. I disagree with them, I don't think he has enough 'mary su' traits to really qualify, but it's something I have actually seen quite a few people say.
Mary Sue they are conceptually the perfect being and having no flaw. It sorta might make them come off as bratty and flawed.
Strange isn’t it.
When you think about it being a mary sue can be a flaw or at least make a flaw like the hero get a ego or two sides trying to make the mary sue join them making them wonder what is right and wrong and how they cant help anyone or being a fallen hero like anakin skywalker and so on
I personally prefer the way literature devil has defined Mary Sues. To sum it up, the plot and the rules of the universe bend to their will. They act and everything reacts, with no real repercussion. It's how to tell your Wonder Woman apart from your MaRae Suewalker.
Let's compare Luke to Rae, first time force use.
Luke: deflecting blasts from a training droid.
Rae: resisting a hyper powerful, highly trained force user from probing her mind, then probing his.
Luke: Assisting with aiming and shooting a shot he's practiced a lot (albeit off screen; bullseyeing wamprats.)
Rae: using a highly advanced mind trick to free herself from captivity.
Comparing Luke, and even Anakin, who were supposed to be space Jesus, their hero's journey/fall to Rae's completeness from the start is a sin, so I'll take my ding and move on before I go into a rant that makes MauLer look brief in comparison.
When you think about it the lack of flaw in the character itself makes it a flaw in writing (Ignoring genres where these flaws would be irrelevant as it wouldn't be the focus)
More like making a conceptually perfect being in your story they might turn out to be a flaw in of themselves in the story
If them being bratty has basically no consequence then its a very superficial flaw and doesnt make them not a mary sue. Also a mary sue is not only defined by the character herself but by the way that teh world reacts around them and in the worst cases reality will damn near or even literally warp around her to help her get the thing that she desires.
Rey is not a Mary Sue.
She is THE Mary Sue.
I think as far as Star Wars is concerned, Ahsoka's the bigger Mary Sue 🤔
@Stumpanelli Ahsoka had her butt kicked due to her arrogance and stupidity, and learning through osmosis is not a thing so just because she was trained by the Chosen One doesn't mean that she automatically make her as OP as she is. And I wouldn't call her battle hardened (if she was battle hardened, she actually display some common sense in battles, but she doesn't. Plus, she only got three years worth of experience in the Clone Wars) so much as desensitized to the point where she craves action and violence.
Ahsoka is a subcategory of the Mary Sue known as a Jerk Sue: someone who behaves horrendously but is treated like an ideal character. And, as I already mentioned, she is incredibly overpowered, holding her own against characters like Ventress, Grievous, Bane, and Maul while sustaining no injuries.
If you want a more in-depth breakdown of the character, check out my Argument Against Ahsoka series
I thought Mary Sue was
@@imyouralibi6208 I was really hoping Ahsoka would be court martialed for some of her stunts getting Clones killed early on in the show. I find it bizarre she is the de facto Deputy Commander of Anakin's Legion. She is also one tool the writers use to make General Grievous absolutely pathetic.
@Lord Revan I agree that Rogue's powers were handled very well but that sort of thing simply doesn't apply in Star Wars.
Well, one thing for sure is that a Mary Sue's weakness is Constructive Criticism and Facts.
Yeah, their existence denyes established logic of this world.
The charcters that are completely broken in their own universe rules and not come off as a shit head is Saitama from one punch man and Reinhard in re:zero
@@dean_l33 and Saitama is a parody character.
@@DeathKitta Yeah thats true but he kinda fit the mary sue definition although its only one small part
And he failed to kill a mosquito
How to write flaws:
Look at yourself
So every character hates their voice?
Hmm doesn't seem to have much that can be done with that
how to make mary sues/marty stus: just remove all your real life insecurities! :D
Hmm... I guess I have many.
1) Thinks they're ugly
2) Hates their voice
3) Very self conscious about their body
4) Doesn't really care if what they do doesn't please people
5) Definitely a slob.
6) Listens to too much music
7) Has a hot temper
9) Sometimes skips numbers like an idiot
10) Somehow can make something awesome one day then just can't replicate it the next because he sucks.
11) Cusses way too much
12) On a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of attractiveness, definitely being about a 3.
13) Plays too many video games at times.
14) A stressed mess whose stress pays off because look at those college grades!
15) Doesn't care much about his own wellbeing.
16) Impulsive to the point of being dumb at times.
Yeah... that's not a bad idea. I have so many damned flaws that I could write a whole novel of characters just based on those alone.
@@themaskedtalker2171 It will be called a best-seller for being so relatable
Also:
Stop being lazy and write actual characters. B)
Dude pissed off Star Wars, Avatar and Jojo fanbase.
Hes on suicide watch 😂
Tbh starwars fans don't really care about Ray
Well, a niche groups of those fanbases
Tbh, it’s not hard to piss off Star Wars fans. Easily one of the most insufferable fan base out there
@Cactus Juice Misread it, what I should say is that it's really a writing criticism
Hey don't classify people who like Rey as star wars fans.
There's a TH-cam channel, Literature Devil, with a definition of a Mary Sue that I find quite cohesive and works quite universally: The canon and logic of their setting bends irrationally to the benefit of the Mary Sue, and this leads to the other tropes.
*They have power that it doesn't make sense for them to have.
*Good guys like them who should logically hate or at least disregard them.
*Bad guys focus on them who should logically ignore them.
*Actions or mistakes that should result in failure instead directly push them towards success.
*They possess exceptions to well-established rules.
*Any character flaws or failings are superficial and tend to not actually be a detriment to the character or anything they want to do.
Explanations in the story for any of these things typically boil down to a throw-away explanation or "because they're awesome!"
Let's look at the titular modern Mary Sue, Rey "Skywalker."
*With no training, she can resist Kylo Ren's mind-probing, mind-control a Storm Trooper, and beat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. Why? "Powerful light, powerful dark," or Palpatine's granddaughter, or Force Diad throwaway nonsense.
*Finn immediately loves and wants to protect her for no apparent reason. She bypasses the compressor on the Falcon, so Han Solo loves her right away.
*Kylo Ren immediately sees she's special and has to have her. Snoke wants her brought to him. Apparently she's very important to a lot of people for no reason.
*She breaks into a bar's store room only to find a lightsaber. No one's perturbed by the break-in. The one fight she loses to Kylo Ren results in her being taken to StarKiller Base, where she then escapes to help destroy the base and beat him later. Surrendering to Snoke in TLJ results not in her imprisonment and torture but a chance to team up with Kylo Ren. Every "failure" or "mistake" directly results in good outcomes.
*Skills and powers in everything from flying to Force use to lightsaber fighting require training. This is well established. Not for Rey, apparently.
*All of her flaws, needing to belong, longing for her parents, etc. never really impede or impact her. They're more talked about than brought o bear.
She ticks 6/6 of the boxes presented above. Let's compare to Anakin Skywalker.
*Very very strong in the Force. But all he can really do naturally without training is have really good reflexes, and maybe a bit of magic insight when it comes to machinery. A little out there compared to what we've seen to be sure, but not nearly as bad as Rey. Beyond that, he still needs years and years of Jedi training to actually do Jedi Stuff. I'd give him at most a 1/2 on this one.
*Qui-Gon Jin is is instantly drawn to him and considers him overly important. He's the only one. Padme just likes the cute kid in The Phantom Menace, and their connection later (while not well-scripted) followed from that. Obi-Wan and Darth Maul disregard him as anything of note. Obi-Wan only takes interest in him after Qui-Gon's death and only then because of Qui-Gon's wishes. The rest of the Jedi just see him as another Jedi. Some are annoyed by him and his arrogance. He is far from universally loved. He does not check this box. Maybe a 1/2 at worst.
*As for bad guys, Palpatine is grooming him for a fall to the Dark Side, but for logical reasons: He's powerful, but young and naïve, easily manipulated. Darth Maul, Count Dooku and General Greivous really don't treat him that differently from any other Jedi. They run into one another because they are on opposite sides; there's no driving obsession. No check mark.
*Anakin makes mistakes with major consequences. In The Phantom Menace, not so much (dumbly steals a Naboo Fighter, blows up the droid control ship), but after that, he pisses off the Jedi Council multiple times, gets his friends in trouble, and gets dismembered multiple times, and eventually falls to the Dark Side. His mistakes aren't constantly, or even regularly, resulting in good things. No check mark.
*While he's abnormally powerful, and starts his training later than is normally allowed, he doesn't actually do anything that breaks established rules of how the Star Wars universe works. No new powers pulled out his ass. No one looking at something he does and saying "that's impossible," nothing of the sort. No check mark.
*And his flaws and failings have serious impacts on him. Arrogance results in animosity with the Jedi Council, and the loss of limbs. Pride and naivety allows Palpatine to pull him to the Dark Side. These flaws are not just lip service. No check mark.
Anakin hits maybe 1/6 of the boxes listed above. Canon and lore and logic do not bend to his will and convenience.
That's my take on the Mary Sue.
And i would argue that that definition is pretty flawed (pun not intended) and what it defines isnt a Mary Sue, also the análisis given about rey is soo superficial level it's almost a parody, like defining a character should not be filling a laundry list to see if it "ticks some boxes", thats like literaly the worst way of defining a character specially when there is such a clear preference towards one above the other
I'm just going to say this, Mary Sues, Gary Stues, Marty Sues or whatever don't actually exist, or atleast they don't exist in the way most people think they do, the term "Mary Sue" and how it has evolved is one of the biggest misinterpretations of basic tropes and archetypes in media that exist, theres a reason why profesional and seasoned writers don't ever use the term (have you ever see someone like Brandon Sanderson use the term "Mary Sue", no, because he is a seasoned writer with decades of experience he is above using such juvenile terminology), the characteristics that are usually atributed to Mary Sues are just basic writing tropes that every story has in some capacity, but used by young writers who are barely starting their potential carrers (thats why they are soo comon in fanfiction, many writers start their carrers writing about other persons stories) so they are misused and distorted in unintended ways because of a lack of experience and knowledge, but thats not because those tropes are "bad" or "wrong", is just bad writing and usually also bad prose by the hands of someone who is new and for now inexperienced
Of something the blanked term of "Mary Sue" has caused more wrong than right, because it makes people and potential future writers confused and thats not a good thing
@@carso1500 No, the criticism is solid and works to describe a variety of badly written characters. A lot of young writers start with Sue type protagonists. Good writers move on from it. Stop apologizing for Hollywood pedophiles and their bad writing.
@@robertfullchim923 What are you even talking about who said anything about pedophiles, as they say people hear whatever they want to listen
Reading this just made me realize that Pikachu in the anime is a Mary Sue lol
@@ImDudeRandom90 That's only until Pikachu gets clapped by a level 5 snivy.
tbh, i like both designs, the skull head band is nice touch for call back. though, was up with the shirt?
@@Mangakamen ah, never got around to NMH.
Mary Sue check.
1. Is your character overpowered?
2. Did they earn that power?
3. Have they ever lost a fight?
4. Have they ever made a mistake that has real consequences?
5. Does everyone immediately like and implicitly trust the upon first meeting?
6. If a character doesn't like them, is said character evil (either secretly or openly) or jealous?
If 1=Yes, 2-4=no, and 5 and 6=yes, congratulations, you have a Mary Sue. Now go back and rewrite the character. Until at least 4 of those answers are different.
Well in that video that only applies to Rey
What if they were born with their power (like Allen Walker) but had to train with said power in order to understand it? Not trying to argue against you, I'm just looking into your advice further cause I'm writing my own story.
The problem with this so-called test is that it is too limited and doesn't account for all scenarios and has a few glaring flaws. For example lets run my character here shall we?
1: is my character overpowered? Define overpowered mate, be specific. My character has a few powers due to him being a cyborg. He has enhanced speed, strength and has mild psychic abilities.
2: Did he earn his power? No he was given his powers in an experiment, but hey Flash didn't earn his powers neither did Spider-Man nor Superman.
3: Did they ever lose a fight? Yes once or twice
4: Sort of but at this stage it's not important... yet and currently doesn't seem like a mistake.
5: Well my character is rather easy to get on with, he's very sociable and polite.
6: Sometimes, depends on the villains I set for him, some actually like him while others want him in a pine box.
But you kind of see the problem, you boiled your system to only yes or no answers, and it becomes murky with some of your wording.
Again define overpowered, overpowered compared to what? If by other characters like him? No, if you mean by non-superpowered humans then yes but its very vague TBH.
Now answering no to the second question in on itself not a bad thing and technically the third too depending on what you are doing.
I do have another character in my story who is a boxer with a (current) undefeated streak does that add into them being a Mary sue? Not necessarily so.
Number 4 well again I am working on it, so yes currently no but on a technicality of the current story arc I have set for him.
I also answered number 5 wish a sort of yes and same as 6 so by your rules yes I did make a Sue... but on the most superficial level based on your boiled down rules.
Mary Sue tests are too easily broken to take seriously.
@Cactus Juice Well I try to make most of my characters lose in some form or fashion, some loses are not as long-lasting mind you but since my characters are superheroes well I don't want them moping around for 800 issues/episodes/stories for every last failure.
Yes I plan on dealing them a big defeat, one that will take them out for at least one episode/story as honestly that kind of storytelling does work now and then.
I mean as a person with "Cactus juice" in their name I am sure you are familiar with Avatar the last Airbender.
At the end of book 2 Aang faced his largest defeat but was mostly back on his feet by the first episode of book 3 as honestly having him mope around for the next few episodes would not move the plot forward and make Aang a rather depressing character. I mean his defeat still had its long term consequences, but you still have to drive your characters past their defeats if you want to move the story forward sometimes.
Let’s apply that to Korra:
1. No.
2. It took her over a decade to master 3 elements and a whole season to master another so she earned it. Admittedly her getting airbending was plot convenience but she did spend a whole season struggling.
3. Multiple times.
4. Yes, she lost connection to the past avatars against Unalaq and got depression after her fight against Zaheer.
5. No. Lin didn’t like her at first and Mako was kind of annoyed. Plus, a lot of Republic city hates her.
6. No, most of the characters who dislike her at first just find her annoying.
I feel that there is a line between 'Mary Sue/Gary Stu' and a character actually being legitimately competent at what they do. For instance, if a character is established to be a doctor, and they're good at treating people, I'd just say that's obvious and expected.
Obviously, this is not a complete waiver for any arguments for "A character is too perfect", since I think that's a valid opinion to have. However, I'm trying to point out I think there is a line you can expect for reasonable competency, perhaps.
Or the thing that they are shown to be good at is only taken to a logical level. Like Rey being able to fight some mooks with her quarterstaff is fine but she shouldn't be able to do that to Stormtroopers or Kylo Ren (regardless of how injured he was. Seriously, I hate that argument. Superman would still clap Batman even if he had a kryptonite spear stuck in his gut).
It's about stakes and struggles, dramatic tension and release. One Punch Man is a great example: Saitama is invincible and can defeat any foe in a single strike, but this runs contrary to his desire to find a challenge, and his personality and dull wits make him unpopular as a hero. So the stakes aren't his survival but other noble characters, and for him the possibility that he'll get his deserved recognition. There's drama and stakes and comedy.
Rey is almost immediately liked by the heroes, desired and despised by the villains. We're supposed to believe she's vulnerable, but there's no evidence to support it, and when she is theoretically vulnerable they prolong it without reason and end it prematurely. When she makes mistakes, they 'accidentally' resolve her problems - rathtars eating the gangsters, getting captured by Kylo (unlocks her force powers, motives Han and Finn to rescue her and deactive the Starkiller Base Shields). Heck, the girl in TROS ambushes Rey and the gang to turn them over for creds, Rey beats them up, and Zori's literal words, "I like her". And because she has to like Rey, we have no conflict that she might betray them but have second thoughts because she likes Poe, so they kill C3P0 to try and inject emotional stakes.
@@TheAdarkerglow I agree with everything you said.
In other words, the competency has to make reasonable sense and not be handwaved. When it does not that uas to be acknowledged properly.
For example, I did not watch much Smallville after the first or second season but remember Lex was suspecting Clark being a meteor mutant. When Clark saved him in an almost-impossible way thanks to adrenaline, while surrounded by kryptonite, Lex asked how and Clark answered a very honest "I don't know" since usually he would just fall down weak just getting close to the stuff. Lex, of course, did not know it so took it as proof of secret powers.
@@Bladezeromus well for once no, Superman with a kryptonite spear through his guts would barely be able to walk let alone fight, so Batman would definetly defeat Superman under those conditions, so being injured and mentaly unstable definetly counts as a detriment (if you are a profesional MMA fighter but someone stabs you in the stomach would you be able to fight against another MMA fighter? Even if that fighter is a rockie)
The thing here is i think a lot of people is mistaken when trying to describe a character as a "Mary Sue" or a "Gary Stue" since they have completly lost the north of what fiction is supposed to represent, in fiction we aint seeing normal people doing normal things, we are seeing exceptional being doing exceptional things, we are seeing people who are supposed to be special in some way, diferent to the norm, thats why for example in Game of thrones we follow the adventures and mis adventures of nobles and kings not peasant mc normal on his everyday life, in dragón ball we follow the adventures of master martial artists and alien gods not some random on the streets, why in avatar we follow the fucking avatar, not a random bender
All of this stories are about the unusual, the special in some way, people that stands above the norm, so of course they will be prodiges, strong and powerful because that kind of people make for interesting stories, and while you definetly can tell a story about a normal person just going with his regular life usually those kinds of ideas only made it as a neat little spin off, because following the everyday life of a normal person isnt interesting in the long run (do You think your life would be interesting as a TV series?)
But this "anti Mary Sue" movement of novice writers (because thats what most people making this videos are, novices with little experience) managed to accomplish is confuse aspiring writers, because they make the exceptional, the special into a crime, now of course there are limits, lines that once crossed reach the ridiculous and silly, but a seasoned and experienced writer aint preocupying about "not making a Mary Sue" but how to make a character interesting, because you can have a prodigy that is good at everything and write it to be interesting and amenable, there You have aang from the original avatar series for example
The fact that the Avatar State does anything for Korra after season 2 really bothers me, because with no connection to the past Avatars, there's no previous power or experience on them to draw from. WHICH IS WHAT THE AVATAR STATE DOES
she lost connection to the other avatars, but not raava
she still is connected to the source of the avatar's power
I agree that the Avatar State should have been weaker. It's kinda One For All in that the power gets increased with each new Avatar and if you lose any of the connections then it should be weaker.
@@sofieknive7382 so the past lives aspect of the Avatar state is meaningless and its all just raava then? God fuck legend of korra 🙄
Korra S1 finnalle, cries so she regains all her powers without having really earned them
Korra S2 opening: * uses Avatar State to win a kid's race *
@@vatreusv You're forgetting the part where the creators didn't even know if they were getting a second season and were trying to wrap up season 1 as neatly as they possibly could.
I think the problem with Mary Sues is they, in a sense, not allowed to struggle, to grow as a character.
Rey kinda of a good example. She had so much potential that was never capitalized on.
Blame Episode IX for that. This had good ideas, but Disney yeeted Trevorrow out and gave Abrams a backpedalling script. x)
She is literally a rip off of the two previous choses ones.
Desert Planet
Slave
Unlimited Power
But you probably think you’re smart enough to know better
@@chadmann2724 oh, there’s no denying Rey is ripoff of Anakin and Luke (more so with Luke), and done poorly at that. She’s definitely an amalgam of both. Instead of playing with her similarities and contrasts of Anakin and Luke, Disney focused on making her “better”.
My personal description of a Mary Sue is a character who is unchallenged by the universe. No matter how powerful someone is, there's always a bigger unseen force that will always be against you. In stories with Mary Sues, the universe bends to suit their needs or whatever the plot demands.
I like it.
My definition runs more along the lines of "a character who is immune to negative consequences and/or meaningful onscreen hardship", since that's the ultimate point of writing them that way. So basically the same thing. By that definition, Rey absolutely is one, whereas Korra, who took plenty of heavy Ls (some of which were either long-lasting or permanent), definitely isn't.
Glad you choose to re-upload your video. Hopefully this doesn't happen again.
I don't see how Giorno is overpowered. Yeah he has a strong stand that can be helpful in multiple situations but the same can be said for a lot of stands in existence. Plus Giorno very rarely single-handedly wins a fight in Golden Wind. Heck in his encounter with Bruno the latter could've killed/neutralized Giorno several times. Giorno points this out himself and says Bruno went easy on him because he's a good person. The Polpo fight where Giorno needed help from Koichi, a far more experienced user to just to not be killed by Polpo's stand. And don't even get me started on the Pesci and Prosciutto fight where Giorno didn't do any battling at all. Giorno is strong but he usually needs the help of others to carry the team to victory. I also don't get how the Stand Arrow was a Deus Ex Machina since it had a lot of establishment.
Exactly
Untill he gets the Requiem, Giorno is a versatile team player, not an overpowered unkillable god
Khanh Nguyen accurate
bro from the rules we know there's nothing stoping giorno from creating an army of dinosaurs from a pile of nails, the transformation doesnt require any equivalence in mass or density, he clearly does not need the knowledge of the actual things he tries to create as i doubt a 15 year old that barely goes to school in 2001 without google has any idea how complex bodyparts like eyes and internal organs are strucutured so he basicaly creates them form the abstract concept of things implying he could literally create anything, and the ability has no time limit whatsoever as none of his creations seem to have turned backe to it's previous form unless he comanded to do so, not even considering the fact he can genetically engineer his creation ass seen in the man in the mirror and king crimson fight, from wht we know he could clone anyone with a stand and that clone would be abbleto use said stand
@@20thcentury_toy Well then we will have to call out the Araki self insert in episode 4 whose stand can literally re-write reality itself
@@dean_l33 yes. And?
The Annikan/ Luke argument makes not sense because Annikan Had nearly full Jedi training and yes Luke didn't have a lot, but he at least experienced the force when he saw Obi Wan and later did train with Yoda for a while. Ray had none of that. She just kept suddenly knowing how to do stuff. Never met a Jedi or experienced the force? No problem, just suddenly do the Jedi mind trick perfectly. Never touched a light saber? Start fighting badly and the suddenly in the middle of the fight close your eyes and you are all of the sudden the best!! Also Luke NEVER actually taught her anything.
Also both Anakin and Luke lost most of their battles. Rey won practically all of them. When they say "Well Luke didn't have much training either", then yeah. That's why he was useless in Episode 4 except for being a great pilot (which is practically the ONE thing the movie establishes about him early on), his one fight in Episode 5 sees him losing a hand and in Episode 6 he trained a lot and practiced and STILL loses to Palpatine and only comes out victorious because Vader sacrifices himself for him.
Same with Anakin. He goes through YEARS of training. But he still loses to Count Dooku the first time they fight and loses his arm, he still fails to catch Jango, and so on. And in the end he still loses to Obi Wan.
Rey never loses. Sometimes she needs a bit of help to win but she always wins, she never pays any price, and even when she gets captured, she easily frees herself and being captured only got her closer to her goal anyway because it gets her right to where she wanted to go anyway.
Who is this "Annikan"? xD
Also, yes, it makes no sense... from a certain point of view. Arguments can be debunked. You can't just say "It makes no sense because shut up".
Here's some contructive thoughts.
Rey knowing about the Force and learning to use it is (very) rushed, true, but one could speculate she read about it. She knows about Jedi legends after all. She already had the Force, but she didn't know it yet. A mage/wizard can use magic without controlling it. Same for the space 'Force' magic. I would've rather seen her breaking through her bonds with a Force blast, true, but the whole thing can be explained.
As for Kylo Ren loosing, he took a blast from a Wookie crossbow in the liver. He's not gonna be so fresh after that. And it is in character for him to get his ass kicked by a random, because he's just a Vader fanboy/wannabe. (He's just Kylo Wrecked! x)) Plus, the Force is and always has been a Deus Ex Machina in Star Wars. (Yes, it is. Fight me.)
Even though I have problems with this arc in retrospect, Luke _did_ teach Rey about Jedi history and feeling the Force. There's also this bit about "not rushing in impulsively" that was unfortunatly put into the deleted scenes for some reason. Just wished she finished her training with Leia, but what can you do...
And despite having typed all of this, I am not a Rey fan. She felt like a meh character to me - especially compared to Luke and Anakin as a main character-, and how she turned out in RoS was garbage. I much prefered her Colin Trevorrow version - that sadly we'll never see because Bob Iger got cold feet after all the fan backlash from TLJ. :/
Truthfully, like the old avatar more
The outfit is based on KR W's Shotaro I believe? Either that or something, it felt familiar
@@Mangakamen why you kill if thr skull
@@Mangakamen have you done any Tokusatsu reviews?
@@Mangakamen my sense of humor is so fucking broken I laughed at a single K please help me i am literally begging for it
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Being a Mary Sue is honestly really hard to describe since there are so many things that can make you a Mary Sue instead of just what everyone thinks it means “They’re too perfect” or “They’re too flawless” or “They’re too overpowered” those aren’t all the traits of being a Mary Sue. In fact some of these aren’t even necessary to make you a Mary Sue. But to be fair, that’s in my opinion. At this point, what makes someone a Mary Sue or what a Mary Sue is, is pretty suggestive
I think it being opinion base is not well thought out because there’s all different kinds, like there’s the se* one. A se* Mary Sue has everyone trying to get into bed with them.
Rey can use force lightning and force healing ( F,L) a incredibly hatefully ability WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE BEEN HIT WITH FEELS ITS POWER AND NOT SUBMIT TO ITS WRATH but bend and chanel its power threw u to create your own lightning its so dark of an abilty that it bends the nature of the force is such a tyranical and hatefully way that it destorts the will of the force . Also she can use force healing a abilty made illegal to teach since the golden age of the jedi before yoda was even born , it would have been usefull is the grey jedi civil war but it was deemed to unatural as it changed the will of the force although for a good and moral reason these to ideologies of the force clash oil and water YOU CANT HAVE BOTH REY THE QUEEN OF THE MARY SUES gets both yunah why go go women power , shes op with no training gets handed everything's and hee op ness is in a direct front to the world building of star wars , and star wars legends , other reason wokeness ruined star wars was because they marketed the seqeul as fins journey a black storm trooper turned jedi would be badass , wokeness in the 90s used to be about (establishing routes of success for women of colour ) early 2000s it ment being awake to systems of control and opression within organisations and media also had links to being awake to conspiracys and then we get modern wokeness 2019 onward go go women power we hate men and obese women with blue hair and hello kitty pfp 😂😂 or the other true form of wokeness the black avanues thing thats why so many white characters are geetting recast as black characters thats wokeness well until your average privalaged white women in American went " womp womp WHY ISNT IT ALLLL ABOUT MEEEE YK WHERE OPRESSED RIGHT RIGHT?? " ⬆️so pathetic so in conclusions white women and people of colour had another who was more opressed dick messuring contest and disney felt pressure to do what they think gets them money ( go go women power and shity story telling) and gave it all to rey again i aint racist but aint it funny how the white women gets it all again ??? 😂 u lot soaked in the blood money in the American south do your research 😂😂 anyway history lesson over moral of the story FUCK REY AND THE MSHEU AND 1 MORE FUCK REY FOR GOOD MESSURE also go watch arcane league of legend on netflix its amazing vi is how you get past the mary sue trope cuz she aint no mary sue
Korra got her ass beat a lot and all her major victories hinged upon receiving help from others. Not to mention it took her several years longer to master the elements than it took Aang. I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue for those reasons. My issue with the show is all the continuity problems.
Agreed
To defend Giorno Giovanna real quick, he actually made more than just a dream of leading a gang. He also had a motive, which was to stop drugs from getting into the hands of kids.
For some reason, that was left out of the anime and we only get to see him flexing on everybody.
Rey from Star Wars can go straight to Hell, however. She's not a character, she's an ideology. And it's a very harmful ideology at that.
It is in the anime, is just mentioned early in the series, and not brought back to be present about the stakes of the conflict, but it is there.
@@phonesjuda7318 Ah, gotcha. No wonder I thought it wasn't in there. Curse you, brain! Stop forgetting things!
Kylo Ren looks more harmful as an ideology of neo-nazis. But yeah, Rey reminds me of this chick from 50 Shades in how she was handled - which is a _bad_ thing to teach to kids. X/
@@Archon3960 Perhaps, but at least Kylo Ren had an actual character arc and personal struggle he had to go through.
it's hilarious to see a "jedi" use sith lightning, because that makes sense
also, force lightning apparently runs through palpatine genes rather than being something you train for
@@Underworlder5 Also apparently even though it's strong enough to kill enough ships to get probably at least 1000 nukes in CoD, it can be blocked with a single lightsaber, then perfectly deflected with two.
@Tristan Lane Yes, I too remember Dooku blocking FLEET DESTROYING SUPER LIGHTNING.
No, the bad criticism here is you saying, these couple of people block lightning that we see isn't as powerful as what we see in the movie with MaRey Sue, therefore I'm a fool without any real elaboration as to why. Then you resort to stupid speculation of a fucking lightsaber then try to weasel out of it because you really have nothing, but of course people like you are the ones who really don't want to see what's up.
@Tristan Lane the thing about Palpetine's lightning is the exact thing they complained about, other characters use it but Rey just has it because of family
Some gripes with your idea of Giorno's abilites.
Giorno's Life Giver ability can turn anything into a creature of comparable size or smaller, meaning a suitcase could be turned into frog, because the frog is smaller than the suitcase. The ability cannot do something like, turn a penny into a gorilla. about your point on how Giorno's Sensory Overload ability is only used once. It's because it can only be activated when making contact with the target, not the target's stand. Giorno hadn't made contact with any of the enemy stand users later on, and the few times he did, it was already over, like when he beat up Cioccolata. I have to admit, the Sensory Overload ability was placed in the wrong part. Most of the stands in part five are specialists, rather than generalists like Star Platinum. The only time this ability could reasonably be used, was in the Bucciarati fight, because him and Giorno's stands are similar, in that they don't have any long-ranged abilities, they aren't environmental hazards, they are punching ghosts.
I have to agree with you when it comes to Giorno figuring out stand abilities insanely quickly with little context.
I do, however, disagree with you when you called the ending of part five a Deus Ex Machina for Giorno. It isn't a Deus Ex Machina, because it was already established that fate as a concept, is unchangeable, and Diavolo had thought his stand could bypass fate; it can't.
I suppose you can call it karma that Diavolo ended up losing to fate, because he constantly claimed he was on the 'Apex of Fate' when he was really fated to do the things he did to begin with, even his time-skips, which directly depend on fate interacting with the world around him.
Diavolo was never meant to get the arrow, and after playing with fate too much, he got what he deserved.
I really enjoyed this video, good job! I would definitely be interested in watching more videos that cover certain character troupes and concepts like this, as it can cover multiple different shows and games. I especially like the parts on JoJo and Persona.
Where is it classified that it had to be comparable size?
Wrong. Life giver grew a large branch out of bullet. Sensory overload used once and is never mentioned again.
@@tastethecock5203 once. Every other Time the person is either protected, is a Stand, or they lose immediately afterwards
@@tastethecock5203 The bullet turned into a sapling and *grew* into a large tree.
I mean his Dio side came about when he baited Ciocalatta with his Jonathan side.
for Giorno I feel like it doesn't really matter, mostly because he takes a backseat to most interactions and allows everyone toto learn and grow either in conjunction or on their own, he does badass things but most of them don't focus on himself entirely, when he sacrifices himself to soft machine, it wasn't for the sake of winning the fight on his own, it gave abachio the information needed to win the fight nearly on his own after that point, he isn't a centre of attention just because he is in almost every fight one way or another, and everyone looks up to him because of how he has helped them, in short its not how the world changes Giorno, its about how giorno changes the world around him, for the sake of the people around him
Mary Sue i would say refers to a character that is such an extreme case of author bias that the rules of the universe bend over forward to accommodate their needs.
I’m pretty sure thats plot amour
Like the Onision books
So, like, every fanfiction with a self-insert OC? xD
@@seraphywang4638 There’s a fine line between having protection and being completely immune
Rey can use force lightning and force healing ( F,L) a incredibly hatefully ability WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE BEEN HIT WITH FEELS ITS POWER AND NOT SUBMIT TO ITS WRATH but bend and chanel its power threw u to create your own lightning its so dark of an abilty that it bends the nature of the force is such a tyranical and hatefully way that it destorts the will of the force . Also she can use force healing a abilty made illegal to teach since the golden age of the jedi before yoda was even born , it would have been usefull is the grey jedi civil war but it was deemed to unatural as it changed the will of the force although for a good and moral reason these to ideologies of the force clash oil and water YOU CANT HAVE BOTH REY THE QUEEN OF THE MARY SUES gets both yunah why go go women power , shes op with no training gets handed everything's and hee op ness is in a direct front to the world building of star wars , and star wars legends , other reason wokeness ruined star wars was because they marketed the seqeul as fins journey a black storm trooper turned jedi would be badass , wokeness in the 90s used to be about (establishing routes of success for women of colour ) early 2000s it ment being awake to systems of control and opression within organisations and media also had links to being awake to conspiracys and then we get modern wokeness 2019 onward go go women power we hate men and obese women with blue hair and hello kitty pfp 😂😂 or the other true form of wokeness the black avanues thing thats why so many white characters are geetting recast as black characters thats wokeness well until your average privalaged white women in American went " womp womp WHY ISNT IT ALLLL ABOUT MEEEE YK WHERE OPRESSED RIGHT RIGHT?? " ⬆️so pathetic so in conclusions white women and people of colour had another who was more opressed dick messuring contest and disney felt pressure to do what they think gets them money ( go go women power and shity story telling) and gave it all to rey again i aint racist but aint it funny how the white women gets it all again ??? 😂 u lot soaked in the blood money in the American south do your research 😂😂 anyway history lesson over moral of the story FUCK REY AND THE MSHEU AND 1 MORE FUCK REY FOR GOOD MESSURE also go watch arcane league of legend on netflix its amazing vi is how you get past the mary sue trope cuz she aint no mary sue
I'm not gonna rant but I'm gonna say 2 things about your jojo point
1. I completely agree he's a Mary sue and he's meant to be one (he's literally the son of "god") he's literally a jesus figure (and we all know that if you were to to talk to him he would just a plain toast of holiness) and his mery sueness has a reason
2. Giornos supposed to be an ideal every person there is trying to achieve or generally be with he's a driving force not a character
Ok I tried not to rant but failed I know
Now there’s a third one
If he was a mary sue then why does he need assistance in almost all the fights he's in?
@UwU DahWholesome You mean characters to make the presumed "Sue" look good? (Disclaimer: I'm not siding Dahwholesome's ideas I'm simply questioning their line of reasoning)
@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec you do have a point
@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec I haven't watched part 5 in a while but i remember in both the Clash and notorious B.I.G fight that Narancia and Trish sang praises to how smart and strong and cool Giorno was while they were doing all the work, and i don't really remember the other fights so i'm not sure about those
Man, i've haven't heard of the term 'Mary Sue' for about 7 years now. Thanks for bringing me back memories of older times in the fandom + Art community!
Wow. Where had you been? I wish I wasn't on this planet anymore! xD
I can't really agree with hyper-competence being the main defining characteristic of a Mary Sue. You can have characters that are OP as shit but still entertaining and nuanced.
Example: Alucard from Hellsing. His powers are insanely broken, to the point where almost nothing can challenge him, but being powerful is only ONE of his traits, and the manga/show makes it very clear that he's by no means perfect. Hell, you can barely call him a protagonist, he's more like a completely deranged psychopath that just HAPPENS to do what the other characters want him to. Sometimes. If he feels like it.
I think that the actual defining trait of a Mary Sue is when a story is purposefully built *around* them.
When an author assumes from the start that his protagonist IS objectively, morally right, and they'll jump through increasingly large hoops to justify their every action - that's a Mary Sue.
When all villains are eventually reduced to cartoonishly evil, senseless lunatics, because god forbid somebody opposing the hero actually make some sense - that's a Mary Sue.
When any struggle the hero goes through eventually resolves itself through sheer plot convenience - that's a Mary Sue.
I think Ruby from RWBY is an excellent example of this. She's not particularly overpowered (well okay, she has one Magical Plot Power (TM) that she rarely uses), but after 8 seasons she has yet to show any sort of personality aside from being The Hero and as such The Good Guy. Every good guy eventually comes to like her, everyone who dislikes her eventually turns out to be the villain, her every action is presented as The Right Thing To Do regardless of consequences, and so on.
Still love the hairpin that I'm PRETTY SURE is a reference to Skull Kamen.
@@Mangakamen Yeah I love little details like that.
@@Mangakamen Where is the original video? I can't find it in the description?
22:41
The stand arrow was foreshadowed to give stand users powers in part 4
The main cast fights another requiem stand multiple episodes before giorno gets his own
The entire final fight was about giorno getting the arrow
Characters sacrificed themselves to get it
Manga Kamen: deus ex machina
@@Mangakamen yeah i just re-watched the part 5 part and i agree. You could have probably explained it better in this video though
@@Mangakamen To be fair, Diavolo is a bastard to deal with. Realistically, Its inevitable to have a deus ex machina when your main villain can just skip what you're doing.
@@SetSeth-yl6ke Like when Jotaro was able to stop time by going “Oh, we have the same kind of stand.”
@@levitalion1483 Yeah basically. Even if it was told they're the same stand, it doesn't justify it being an asspull.
Plus..its a stand that stops time. You can do anything during that time. You would need a deus ex machina to try to survive through it.
@@levitalion1483 it was foreshadowed that dio and jotaro had the same stand and dio flat out said it during their fight to confirm it along with the fact jotaro being able to move little by little each time Za warudo was used now jotaro specifically using it the moment he was about to die and up to what 3 to 4 possible 5 secs now that's an ass pull
Skyrim, we are marysues in that game, I lead every faction in that game.
To be fair, Giorno's ability is MEANT to be broken in 1 aspect: Utility/Support.
Giorno just doesn't have the power it often takes to really beat up many of the enemies throughout Part 5 and acts a lot like an assist or a very powerful supporting character. Sure, he does Ciocolatta a massive beatdown but his stand wasn't really exactly made for head-to-head combat either. Giorno is the only real support of the group (If you don't count Bruno re-attaching limbs using zippers) and, because of this, his weakness is that he needs to output more destructive power, something the rest of the gang does pretty well. Bruno is the brave leader with a lot of utility and power, Trish has a very good defensive and offensive power, Mista is one of the best marksman in the group, Narancia is the scout and extra marksman of the group, and Fugo is just a sheer powerhouse who can hurt himself if he doesn't use Purple Haze well enough. Giorno may be OP but not in all the other categories that really net you a win in the world of Part 5 (Especially since that part has VERY destructive stands. Some fights are actually very centered around the supporting cast doing a lot of things while Giorno bolsters their efforts and supports them).
Next, the deus ex machina thing. First of all, it was basically established that whoever got the requiem arrow would pretty much win the ensuing or current fight. This is why Polnarref went to such great lengths and even let Chariot Requiem loose as he was so determined and desperate to ensure the arrow fell into the hands of Giorno and the gang. The whole GER thing isn't a deux ex machine because... we know that it or 1 other thing is going to happen. Either Giorno gets GER or Diavolo gets King Crimson Requiem. Whoever gets a Requiem stand is the winner. Simple. If the Requiem arrow just suddenly appeared in the middle of the fight for some half-assed reason, then I think it'd be a deus ex machina, but the Requiem arrow was built up as a powerful artifact that could actually defeat Diavolo's invincible King Crimson. The whole point of that fight was that whoever got the Requiem arrow automatically became the winner basically. The fight wasn't about what happened after but was all about a strategical game of keep away and pursue where a lot of the characters played a major part in Giorno's victory.
Just my opinion though, feel free to respond if you want about anything I said
Yeah.
I believe that some Mary Sue traits in video games are a necessary evil whenever you are in control. Video games are, well, games, they require you to progress by overcoming challenges that may arise. The only moments a video game protagonist "canonically" loses is through scripted sequences like an unbeatable boss or cutscenes.
The only exceptions are games that are more meta like Undertale which acknowledges your actions as a player without obvious scripting.
I agree. Power Fantasy in video games can work just fine.
Plus, no one would accuse Doomguy of being a Gary Stu! xD
I stand by what I said on the original video. That being said, the reason I think these kind of characters are hated is that they take away from the rest of the cast. I've noticed that stories that tend to focus on a single character don't have the accusation of Mary Sue thrown at them as much as a story that features an ensemble of characters. The reason why Ray is hated is she tends to take away from the other characters. She pilots the millennium falcon better than Han Solo, making the fact that Po was a pilot obsolete in the process. She bests Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel despite having no training, completely castrating any sense of threat he had built up through the movie, and making him feel like a joke in the latter movies. She effectively takes away from the characters she is around, making them feel like extras in a story that was made for her.
A good character works off the cast, bringing out the best in the people around them, and making each character feel like they contribute to the story. While I don't believe the blame should be put solely on the Mary Sue, I do think that their contribution to the problem should be recognized.
I have to laugh at this, because it was _Han Solo_ who highjacked the movie and _Luke_ who got the most memorable scenes in TLJ. xD
Hey, another critique towards the Star Wars Prequels: relying too much on nostalgia and former main characters!
@@Archon3960 Most people would say the Ewokes hijacked the last film of the original trilogy, given how forced they felt.
I am gonna post a wall of text as to why I disagree with you, so if you don't want to read this you can stop here. Han was constantly assisting Leia with her plans, which is fitting because the movie started with her infiltrating Jabba's Place to save his ass. The entire opening sequence is everyone else helping him because of all the times he helped them. And he is flailing about during the entire rescue because he is blind due to being frozen in carbonite. Only accidently beating Jango Fet on account of the bounty hunters broken jet pack.
As for Luke, he relies on his friends for most of the movie, such as when he had to infiltrate Jabba's place. He does have his moments, but Leia is the one who ends up beating Jabba when she literally strangles him with the chains he put her in. The most memorable scenes with Luke involve how he interacts with his family. People remember Luke for pushing Vader to turn against the emperor and help both the rebels and his son by stopping the emperor from using the force to make his forces better at fighting. Admittedly, the movie doesn't outright tell you what Darth Sidious was doing, but supplemental stories do confirm this.
As for the prequels. There is Darth Maul, a villain that many fans said was killed too soon. He killed Obi Wans' mentor and pushed Obi Wan to the path to becoming a Jedi Knight. There is Mace Windu, a fan favorite and a Jedi Master that was introduced in the prequels. He saved the main cast in the second movie leading the clone army, and almost stopped the rise of Emperor in the third movie. General Grievous, who was created before the third movie came out, and was seen as a popular villain until George Lucas turned him into a pale imitation of Vader because he happened to be a cyborg. There is the Trade Federation, which is the perfect embodiment of cooperate corruption, and how it can gain a foothold in political places. They were the main antagonists of the prequels, creating the droids the protagonist had to fight, and being the catalysts for the civil war that would allow Palatine to rise to power. Even the unpopular character like Jar Jar Binks tried to play off the cast to lighten the mood. I don't see how these characters are being pushed aside for the sake of any one character. If you read through my rambling, I thank you for at least giving me the chance to voice my opinion on the matter.
@@sharkjumpingwalrus6744 No, thanks for your opinion! x)
I tend to dislike what the Prequel movies did with Maul and Grievous because they were handled way better in EU material.
A video game character can totally be a Mary Sue. Although I'd say that Mary Sue-like characters are often just badly written just like in films or tv shows, I don't think video games are in a different category. I think a good example of a Mary Sue in videos games would be Marie from Persona 4 Golden, the entire cast instantly likes her, she's not really nice or anything to any of the characters yet she is still adored by them, and she just the basic tsundere when it comes to her personality.
Ugh, I hated Marie so much. Still do. I totally agree with your sentiment. Lol
Also rey, easily fixing a ship that she has never been on, while the owner of such ship bumbles around like a moron.
Getting praised and worshipped by everyone she meets, prime example leia hugging her instead of chewy when han dies. She knew him for like a day and chewy knew him his whole life.
Oh nevermind you mentioned these at the end
Rey can use force lightning and force healing ( F,L) a incredibly hatefully ability WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE BEEN HIT WITH FEELS ITS POWER AND NOT SUBMIT TO ITS WRATH but bend and chanel its power threw u to create your own lightning its so dark of an abilty that it bends the nature of the force is such a tyranical and hatefully way that it destorts the will of the force . Also she can use force healing a abilty made illegal to teach since the golden age of the jedi before yoda was even born , it would have been usefull is the grey jedi civil war but it was deemed to unatural as it changed the will of the force although for a good and moral reason these to ideologies of the force clash oil and water YOU CANT HAVE BOTH REY THE QUEEN OF THE MARY SUES gets both yunah why go go women power , shes op with no training gets handed everything's and hee op ness is in a direct front to the world building of star wars , and star wars legends , other reason wokeness ruined star wars was because they marketed the seqeul as fins journey a black storm trooper turned jedi would be badass , wokeness in the 90s used to be about (establishing routes of success for women of colour ) early 2000s it ment being awake to systems of control and opression within organisations and media also had links to being awake to conspiracys and then we get modern wokeness 2019 onward go go women power we hate men and obese women with blue hair and hello kitty pfp 😂😂 or the other true form of wokeness the black avanues thing thats why so many white characters are geetting recast as black characters thats wokeness well until your average privalaged white women in American went " womp womp WHY ISNT IT ALLLL ABOUT MEEEE YK WHERE OPRESSED RIGHT RIGHT?? " ⬆️so pathetic so in conclusions white women and people of colour had another who was more opressed dick messuring contest and disney felt pressure to do what they think gets them money ( go go women power and shity story telling) and gave it all to rey again i aint racist but aint it funny how the white women gets it all again ??? 😂 u lot soaked in the blood money in the American south do your research 😂😂 anyway history lesson over moral of the story FUCK REY AND THE MSHEU AND 1 MORE FUCK REY FOR GOOD MESSURE also go watch arcane league of legend on netflix its amazing vi is how you get past the mary sue trope cuz she aint no mary sue
I personally feel that Korra has been unnecessarily thrown into this category with no real undeniable evidence. She's extremely relatable throughout the entire show and while starts the show as a fairly powerful avatar, she still has no experience with airbending or the avatar state/spiritual connections which is the entire point of the first season of the show. She's also seen being absolutely decked by several, far more powerful, individuals throughout the show when she gets too cocky.
Yeah, but haters gonna hate. :/
@@Archon3960 it's not that, korra may have grown but ultimately she is insanely inconsistent.
For example, throughout the show everyone raves on about korras excellence at her avatar things but is trusted and treated like a child, which makes no sense.
On top of that, every scene that seemingly showcases how she's grown, doesn't really matter since every time she's shown, she is exactly the same person. It's a problem that happens in comics characters like Spiderman, who entirely live off of the misery and pain but due to the writers not allowing the character to grow, each run of him will reset him into the same person, making all the scenes of character growth vanish because hurr durr we want the same old thing. However I'll excuse this since Spiderman has many different forms and will usually suffer from the problems of comic writers.
Korra doesn't because their is literally just one show and a few tie in comics, and everytime some dramatic character growth scene happens, it literally causes nothing and she still remains the same bitchy probably bipolar girl that she is from the beginning. I mean look at her brattyness in the first book and compare to the end of the book 3, while their may be some scenes where she shows off her growth, it only comes when the plot demands her to be not a bitch. Apart from that, she is literally the exact same bratty girl she was when she was first introduced.
She’s obnoxious and cocky most of the time, not a Mary sue but definitely not the most entertaining character.
@@silverprimus321boi9 A person Having mixed Emotional states and unable to cope with those emotions means the person is not perfect. You just explained why Korra works as a character. Korra is not a stoic character who shows no emotion. Korra is a emotional flawed character from start to finish. Characters do not always have to hide emotions to show character growth its the main reason why I start to see real life female actors speak out saying "playing stoic female protagonist is crap boring job since they have to show no emotion". what makes korra work is that she is not a stoic boring female character she can show emotion since she's human. the "Red lotus" fucked korra's character really badly in the later seasons I mean korra got PTDSD and trauma against the "Red Lotus" from the poison she got from them.if any thing your complaints about korra are from the first 2 seasons of korra while season 3 and the final season 4 of the legend of korra were consistent with korra's character growth. your takes are mostly hot takes without the focus on korra's character positions in season 3 and season 4 finale of legend of korra.
I'm gonna be honest, I personally just need a character to be likable or have a good/well written personality in order for me to like them. This whole "seeing a part of yourself in the character" concept is near alien to me and I still cannot understand why so many people need a character in media to directly tie to or represent them in some way in order to like them (see anyone on tumblr or Twitter whining that there aren't enough [insert demographic here] people in a movie, show or western comic).
Theres a lot of amazing characters out there that you can relate to or care for! My personal favorite is Kokichi Ouma :D
Im the same exact way. I like a lot of characters that i have no relation to
Some people like looking a funhouse mirror basically but that is a valid reason. I have some I can relate to and some that I like because they are that way. So some people like those characters because it feels empowering that similar people succeed though most of the time it isn't those reasons as to why they win. Objectivity is hardly something the average consumer of media thinks about.
Man i can relate to toby's and Andrew's portray of peter parker each one for different reasons
But I'm not white honestly if you can only relate to a person who looks identical to you then your dumb
true...the persona type people...i like goku..i am nothing like goku but i like him...i like gohan too..i am more like him...i like kururrin i am sorta at times like him...then theres vegeta..fuck vegeta...
Manga Kamen : *posts a new video*
Me : *Heh yeah boi*
Technically it's a new old video
Hee Ho shadow bans are dumb Hee Ho Jack frost says that youtube is dumb dumb Hee Ho
My comments constantly get deleted
IMHO Shadow bans and things of that nature should just be made flat out illegal they are inherently fraudulent by nature and circumvent the principle of facing one's accuser and accusations.
Hello Jack frost
Hello there funny snoman man
Hee ho I agree-hee.
I've always forgiven Mary sue characters as being for children or teens in difficult situations, like a mental protection against the horrible things they might be going through, a small escape or hopeful wishes.
I kind of don’t agree with Giorno being a deus ex machina. Polnareff legit stated “if we get the arrow, we win.” there was no random plot twist. It was said episodes before the final fight. Giorno isn’t good at everything, on multiple occasions there were stands that could have easily killed him had it not been for his allies, great example being white album which completely counters both his and mista’s ability.
And Giorno lost horribly to Notorious B.I.G. He needed help with Black Sabbath and Man In The Mirror. Just to name a few, and he was of little help with Beach Boy and Grateful Dead. It took everyone to take Diavolo.
Exactly
Not to mention his solo fight against Babyface, where he almost died because Babyface took away vital pieces of him. In this fight Giorno developed and learned a new ability to "heal" everyone
Pretty absurd you consider giorno a gaty stu when jotaro
Giorno is a supporting character for most of the manga, he is a very unorthodox protagonist, being weaker than any JoJo before and also weaker than anyone in the same gang as him.
He is the piece that make the story move, not by sheer awesomess but by killing polpo and having more motivation than anyone else.
Also no one in JoJo cares if you blow their arms
Points I don’t agree for Giorno
A. Giorno was barely in any fights
B. Giorno kinda did use life shot but only in the beat downs of cioccolata and diavolo
C.Giorno not feeling pain is not special most of jojo character for some reason don’t feel pain example: jotaro having a fan stuck in his shoulder and not flinching
Litterally almost every JoJo character in a fight has no pain index
Personally think there can be more interesting conflicts for a character than just skill level. Stories like Shigurui, Berserk, and Vinland Saga have protagonists that are very competent warriors, but their own personality flaws bring about their downfalls. The problem is that those are stories specifically written to tackle that kind of subject matter. To explore complicated characters.
Stuff like Korra is supposed to be simpler, so it can be easy to devolve into just bullshitting a power level just to get out of a sticky situation without shattering the status quo *too* bad. Which, yeah, JoJo can be guilty of as well (though not often enough to get really annoying.)
@@Mangakamen Hey Manga.
Give RWBY at least this for all the times you shit all over that series (RWBY isn't even that bad, especially when compared to garbage like Puppy In My Pocket or My Life Me).
At least the girls in that series aren't Mary Sues who are completely invulnerable 100 percent of the time who are 100% completely flawless.
@@dylansmith5206 they kinda are.
This video was recommended to me by YT itself, thought you might be happy to hear this
In regards to Giorno, he had to learn how to heal ppl from a fight and didn't get it automatically. Plus he was kind of disabled in other fights, so he isn't invincible.
Some of the traits I use when talking about Mary Sues and that a lot of the ones commonly called that have:
Liked by everyone for no reason.
Exceptionaly good at stuff for no reason.
Rarely or never loses.
No personality or just plain boring.
Doesn't grow or has no character arc.
Good just for being goods sake.
Nothing really bad happens to them or their mistakes have no consequences.
The thing about Korra that intrigues me is that she seems like an attempt to invert a lot of sue tropes.
She's by necessity the strongest character in the story, she's beautiful, gets to be good at sports, and is the centre of a love triangle. She sounds like a potential sue, and yet:
- When she gets to Republic City, none of the authority figures respect her and tell her to get in line.
- While she is beautiful, she isn't really treated that way by the story or the camera. She's juxtaposed next to Asami's more traditional beauty. She does win the love triangle, but that gets undone later on, so we can't really count that can we?
- She's allowed to be terrified. In fact, her arc in season 1 is accepting just how scared she is, which is not something most Sue's even try to go near in terms of character traits. Korra is allowed to be vulnerable and weak for a lot of the story.
- She loses a lot. Not that she's a push over by any means, but she frequently gets her ass handed to her. Remember when Amon had her right in his grasp and just put the fear of God into her? Or when he actually de-bended her? Or when she got Raava ripped straight out of her? Or when she spent three years just messed up due to the Red Lotus's actions and was losing left and right? Would Rey Skywalker ever get that low? Would 2020 Mulan be that vulnerable?
- The world doesn't revolve around her. Sure, being the Avatar makes her relevant, but stuff is happening behind her back and without her interference all the time. Bolin learning Lava bending, Jinora's entire character arc, most of the side romances, the actual death of Amon. Hell, she spends three years away from everyone and the world continues without her. The show makes a point of that. A real Sue would be involved in every knook and cranny of the plot and nothing would ever happen without them being there to influence it.
- Korra gets help to fight a lot of the big end of season battles. She teams up with Mako to beat Amon, she gets a power up from Jinora to beat Unavaatu ( dumb name, I know), the entire new air nation comes together to help her against Zaheer, and an entire army of characters teams up with her to take down Kuvira. Korra still gets the final blow, but it's not like the rest of the cast is ever sitting back and letting her handle things.
It really feels like the writers looked at all the traditional Mary Sue tropes and did everything in their power to invert them, and I love it.
i mean shes the avatar, same with aang, the avatars are the strongest benders no contest. the avatar state is the gary stue mary sue maker.
Thank god, I love Korra and one of the most irritating things I see people do is try to label her a Mary Sue, even if you don’t like the show I’m glad you can recognize how ridiculous of a statement that is.
Oh thank god. I saw the thumbnail and thought he was trying to say she is a Mary sue
As of being on season 2 ep 11 I can easily say shes a mary sue but I still have hope for her
I think the a mary sue is always flawed but they're flaws are never talked about or even treated as posittives and that's part of the reason they're a mary sue
The issue is that in fiction, a flaw is only a flaw when it actually has negative consequences at any point in time and usually, that's not the case for Mary Sues. Show, don't tell. "Superman is weak to green cryptonite" is a weakness. "Oh but also no green cryptonite exists in the universe anymore" makes it not a weakness anymore, because while he still has that weakness there is no room for it to ever be of consequence.
"My Characer is just too nice" can be a flaw, but only when it's shown to be one. When the characters niceness is abused and the character has to carry negative consequences for it.
I thank you for bringing the existence of that Weird Al clip into my life.
10:09 _YOU FELL FOR IT, FOOL! Thunder Cross Split Attack!_
Good episode and mostly summarizing again what a mary sue is a troupe. It can be done right and can important character development, but it has to continue for the troupe to not get bore.
Surprisingly, Link is a good mary sue done right for gaming because of not only expanding the lore of his series but in how it is important to his own character. I could totally be wrong in this, but I thought it would be great to explore more upon and see if would fit the troupe. Great video overall, and I hope a sequel comes for talking more about Mary Sue.
This is a good video.
I do think mary sues and Gary stus exist in video games when it comes to the story. With gameplay alone though no I don't think so.
In videogames it kinda depends on what the game is going for to begin with. There are games that are so gameplay focused that a character being a Mary Sue or not really has no consequence on the enjoyment of the game. Doom for example is supposed to be a powerfantasy all about beating up Demons. Nobody gives a real shit about the story to begin with so nobody could care less about if Doomguy is a Mary Sue or not.
But there are also very story focused games and in those that can definitely be more of an issue. And there a divide between gameplay and story can be an issue as well. It's a common complaint in many games that you can be absolutely demolishing a boss and the cutscene still makes you lose. But of course the opposite can be true as well. In that regard i agree with you that the story is what matters in determining if someone is a Mary Sue or not. How much you personally struggled in a fight is meaningless when the next cutscene shows your character effortlessly slaughtering any opposition.
Think about in stories when an underdog character is able to get a magic item or ability of some kind, it’ll either go one of 2 ways:
Route 1: they gradually learn overtime to handle and master it
Route 2: the INSTANTLY know how to harness it to its fullest potential
The 2nd option is the worst, simply because we don’t see any growth from the character and their journey into trying to master said item or ability and just watch as they master it all within a few minutes.
Some examples of the 1st options done well are Midoriya when he inherited One for All and Johnny Joestar.
At first, Midoriya used One for All like All Might would and that he would just punch everything to the point where he’d break his arms cashing severe damage to himself. Only until the upcoming license exams did he think and go; “instead of becoming a glass cannon, I should become an agile heavy hitter using my legs instead” and used One for All in a new way differing from what All Might did.
Johnny had to gradually learn the Spin technique overtime during the course of the race. His stand Tusk helped a bunch with each form improving him spin upon every time he grew. He gained Act 3 during his fight with Axl RO letting Johnny use his fingernail bullets to make spin wormholes in the earth. Even farthing this ability the final evolution, Act 4, could only be accessed via the Golden Rectangle, he can now ORA rush and make someone infinitely spin through different universes.
I can’t think of any other cases of the 2nd option other than Rei from the new Star Wars movies-
I like Overly sarcastic productions definition, it's a character that the world revolves around
dat 1010 mix at the end SLAPS
Even tho I disagree with Golden Experience being bad, yeah there's a reason why my pfp is Mista and not Giorno
Hey I like JoJo, I like Giorno, and he’s also my favorite jojo in the show. Im not about to go on a rant because you seem competent enough to site sources and other jazz that yo do in your videos. But I say that you should check out Oceanz videos on Golden Wind and Giorno himself. In addition Giorno’s ability to super charge your senses so much that your Conscience hops out of your body is in the story the whole time but it isn’t shown like how was the first time.
the moment you mentioned the persona protags and watering plants i remembered that i forgot to water my nana's plants while she's away THANK YOU SO MUCH >_
Loved that jobby bit at the end
Ok, but you left one question unanswered
Who does Mary sue?
And more importantly:
What for?
Mary Sued her writers for making her so boring.
I like your take on the Mary Sue matter, and even though I had a hard time with seeing Korra in the topic, I can see your point. One thing I'm curious about though is how you only mentioned Persona with the main characters. It makes sense why you'd bring it up, but I'm just wondering on how you feel about people calling other characters that aren't the protagonist, a Mary Sue, like Makoto and Mitsuru, complaints that I see often for the Mary Sue topic in Persona
i dont think makoto is Mary sue but i dont feel she earned her persona like other when u look on it everyone had months/years of abuse boil over joker his court stuff ryuji ann and others dealing with kamoshida to point of sexual harassments and assult fox [forget his actual name] having all his work stolen and emotionally abused basically for years haru had her dad and even after that her ex fiancé and futaba had her entire family basically out to torment her makoto....knew a drug dealer for likea week before she went in stupidly makeing herself a target..whoo well earned ''i dont want to be pushed around by others no more'' doesn't work when shes barely got emotional punch or tie to that chapters villain to make us care
I would argue that Maya could count as a Mary sue since everybody seems to love her, and She Is the only character that was powerful enough to defeat her Shadow without accepting It, She literally denied her existence to the point where the Shadow stopped existing, but then you dive deeper in her backstory and see that lots of stuff happened to her and She Simply became a Better Person trough Pain, a think that many Mary Sues don't do since they all seem to have a tragic past Just to create sympathy and they never learn from the bad things that happen to them so i really Guess in the end she's not
It's one thing to be born a chosen one with great power. It's another thing to learn how to control that power.
Gotta have those strugglers.
Trying to make this like a reference joke for Berserk, but it's 1 AM and I am falling asleep. Nice video =u= RIP Miura.
Talking about Mary Sues 2: Electric Boogaloo.
But anyways, it’s a shame that TH-cam pretty much kneecapped your previous video, since it was quite good, and the added content only makes it even better, a la Pokémon Platinum or Persona 5 Royal.👌🏽And I especially dig the Persona protags in the Paper Mario art style at 26:44.
Anyways, I’ll also copy/paste the comment I left on the previous video for consistency’s sake:
While I do think Giorno is a bit bland as a character, I personally don’t think he’s a Mary Sue/Gary Stu since he’s not all that OP. His stand, Gold Experience, might have very useful abilities, but even those abilities have its limits. He can’t create life from nothing, so he needs parts to make life first, he also can’t heal without his hands, hence why he’s basically useless in the Notorious BIG fight due to losing both his arms, and most importantly, unlike Josuke who can heal stuff basically instantly, his healing process is a lot slower as well as more painful. You’ve also got several other stand users who have more broken abilities than he does, such as turning your blood into metal objects without even touching you, swimming through the ground like water or basically erasing time so that no harms befalls you. Hence why he’d probably be somewhat OP in any other series, but in Jojo I’d say he’s about on par with everyone else.
The part with him knowing why Trish was being aged slower than everyone else is actually part of his character as well, since it’s established that Giorno, even as a child, is very observant and would determine things by observing others. He gauges a situation by looking at other’s reactions and uses it in order to help aid his allies from the enemy, which’s why he also notices that Narancia is acting weird before everyone else does in the Talking Head+Clash fight. You could consider this a flaw, sure, but it does at least have precedence and makes sense.
Giorno’s main flaw is that he doesn’t really grow through the events of part 5, but I personally don’t mind that since part 5 was less about Giorno himself, but more so him inspiring the other members of Passione and helped them to find their “resolve,” rather than just being sleeping slaves to fate.
Other than that though, I do agree with the rest of your video, and am glad that you actually defended Korra a bit since she certainly isn’t a Mary Sue in that she actually has flaws. She’s stubborn, hotheaded and impulsive, making her terrible at diplomacy, and we see her actually face consequences for her actions, something Mary Sue’s almost never do. People constantly bring up her being able to use multiple elements as a kid, without realizing that her arc is the opposite of Aang’s since while Aang was a master airbender, he spent the series learning the other 3 elements. Whereas for Korra, she starts with the other elements but has to learn airbending, which’s the most difficult one for her since it’s the opposite of her nature. She could also just only use the elements and didn’t really effectively master them until her years-long training with the White Lotus. Kinda like how Aang first uses firebending in season 1, but doesn’t really master it until near the end of season 3 due to the traumatic incident between him and Katara. Of course, I don’t think Korra is perfect by any means, but it more so stems from my problems with the story rather than her character itself.”
I would like to defend gorino in three things, the pain, the stand and the ending, for pain, he does feel it at first but he’s constantly in pain through out this series that he’s probably developed a high pain tolerance, you can definitely see he was in pain with man in the mirror, second, his is op but does have limits like against white album, and man in the mirror and notorious B.I.G, the ending, polnareff actually hinted at it and we see something similar in part four, all I have to say
Jojo has a lot of internal inconsistency in parts 1&2. I was told it got better but it seems like that passed eventually as well. Thanks for the video and heads up.
I love the use of 1010's song from juno it really is a good fit for the video being that 1010 are a robot boy band that are manufactured to be perfectct in every way
To be fair there was no writing that could fix Rey as long Kathleen Kennedy was there in charge of Lucas Films.
Sort of why The New trilogy came out the way it was.
I honestly feel giorno isn't considered a mary sue. He played with the team most of the time and acts as support. Until requiem. Then he's OP as hell
Omg he used a mauler sound bite
Vader has a catheter in his suit which takes out waste and cleans his blood.
It basically has a dialysis machine in it
Hm. Main character video game Gary Stus...
I think that's something that can only happen when dealing with a main character who isn't silent or directly controlled by the player in narrative situations. One that comes to mind is Dane from the Quiet Man, who is deaf... but can hear and understand things perfectly for whatever reason, and in a mundane crime drama, suddenly develops superpowers in the closing act. For no reason. And was in control the whole time...for some reason.
Not exactly, there's alot of characters from other game categories who aren't perfect or can solve problems in a blink of a eye.
So if an op character can be interesting (one punch man, most anime characters) can a mary sue/Gary stu be interesting?
Anakin: Lose his first battle against a true Sith Lord Dooku when he is inexperience... lose an arm...
Luke: Skip his jedi training from Yoda and lose got his ass kick by Darth Vader... lose an arm...
Rey: Got capture by Kylo Ren then suddenly knows every force and light saber technic...
I was going to bring up the Pokemon protagonist as a Mary Sue, but you literally did that already. Good.
Personally when writing stories the main characters (along with characters around the story of course) usually struggles through a few of my traumatic experiences I've had in life, but I must admit that my stories were the only way I could cope at the time so they do tend to be rather pestimistic/darkly realistic. I tend to be the writer that puts a bit to much detail in my stories, so it tends to show and express my emotional struggles, which can become really morbid. The funny thing about it is that my main characters only go through not even half the numbers of traumatic situations I've gone through, but I use to get comments saying that my main characters are Anti-Sue and that no one actaully goes through that much fear and misfortune in life. Honestly I wanted to say that I was the living proof that someone can have more traumatic experiences, but I didn't want to worry the commenter or come off as rude so I never replied back. 😅 Luckily though through time I've learned how to improve my story telling skills.
Avoid it for the sake of avoiding having an Über-edge based storyline
*Sees thumbnail*
Aang is the Shinji of Avatars.
Korra is the Asuka of Avatars.
Kyoshi is the Rei of Avatars.
Aren't they planning on retconning the continuity, by having a prophecy in the High Republic series that states that Rey is the mary su- I mean chosen one?
Honestly I wouldn't poke the sleeping dragon on what is essentially a re upload because the original was literally censored to death but I like the video good job. 👍
I laughed my fucking ass off when daisy said the Mary Sue is a sexist term cause their is one for males which is Gary Stues or Marty Stues like for an example Kirito he is the living definition of a Marty Stue and and Rey is the living definition of a Mary Sue.
To be honest, I did see a lot of female characters being called Mary Sues because they were supposedly "too powerful". Especially in Marvel medias.
Take Hela for example. She's a freakin' godess, and yet she has been accused of being "way too powerful". Same with Captain Marvel, the litteral Superman of the MCU...she is supposed to be that strong (not to mention she got decked by Thanos in _Endgame_ ). Plus, some of these have a.. peculiar view on women in medias to be honest. ;/
I think the main problem in that case is that Marvel and others are putting characters into their stories to please a minority of their fans who b*tch about not seeing many color-of-the-skin/sexual-orientation/this-or-that-thing. But they don't bother to actually write good characters. Because that would take real _actual_ talent. And you can't just buy that, Disney! xD
Kirito? You mean the guy who gets his ass kicked on a regular, has never beaten a final boss on his own, has PTSD, self-hatred, and has attempted sucide because of countless bad judgement calls. Who also has been sidelined and a potato for half a season.. is a Gary Stu?
I agree with red’s option (from overly sarcastic productions) on this topic. People, you aren’t stupid for liking. Characters with *sue-ness* but we should acknowledge those traits and talk about how to avoid writing those kinds of characters.
17:10 His suit has a recirculating waste disposal system. Which means his bodily fluids are collected and he can empty them. It was cannon before Disney took over. IDK about after.
love the thumbnail
And then the shows are like:
Look she cried,that means she is flawed!
Yeah thanks a lot for letting us know about a regular human ability to f-cking cry.
Him: talks about mary sues
Me: yeah i see your point
Him: calls Giorno a marty stu
Me: has a seizure
thanks for the video
Hope you do a video about Isei because I think you're the only one whose brought up the fact that he barely did anything to become one of the strongest characters in DxD.
@Stumpanelli True, but there should be something MORE.
The most annoying characters are those who have power they didn't work for, and are arrogant because of a title without any real backing.
The closest thing to a video game Mary Sue I can think of would be the Deputy from Far Cry 5. He doesn't say a word, is capable of operating just about every weapon under the sun from the very beginning (that could be explained by his profession, but it can only work to a certain point), everyone loves and relies on him to save the day, and the life threatening injuries he receives are treated as if they never happened.
The TH-cam algorithms have blessed you
The definition changes from person to person 31 minutes of something that could have been five
Yeah, you right about GioGio. He's DIO's son, but has none of his charisma which could've played a part in the story. Must be his Jonathan genes dominating the DIO ones.
Well I prefer his Jonathan traits over making him a copy of Dio. Though Giorno discovering that he is the byproduct of necrophilia would be great...
My definition of a Mary Su/Gary Stu character is basically “The Ultimate Escapist Character”, like Silver Age Batman or Superman.
Been a while mate. Glad you are doing real good! Miss the old design but the new one currently that you showed in the intro is really good looking
@@Mangakamen Already do, I like the jacket and the shirt combo
Lost it at the Ollie clip.