Note: For some reason, even though I rendered the video in HD, youtube didn't want to. So my apologies on it only being at 720p, maybe down the line I'll try this again, but please excuse this mess up.
Another thing I'd like to note are oc's put in fnf mods. It's actually kinda Genius. You get to show off your oc, they lose to bf in a battle, and thus don't come off like a Mary Sue so much since well, bf who's not really shown to be that much stronger than a normal human was able to beat them.
Hey Master, just wanted to let you know that I'm doing fine, and that Stone Ocean has inspired me to do better, and turn things around. I'm planning to make the next big step in growing my channel in a few months. Hopefully then, I'll be able to make up for any tiresome requests or raised eyebrows I've caused.
I would argue Jonathan Jostar is more of a Mary Sue then Jotaro. Flawless, unshakable moral compass, has someone teach him how to use a power to kill the exact thing he needs to kill, uses that power to do basically whatever he needs at the given situation. Yes, he dies at the end but he ultimately prevent the rise of a monster who wanted to take over the world.
@@C24U_ well, Johnathan is like not a Mary Sue, but you can say that he has a Boy Scout personality. And you have Johnny Joestar from Steel ball run, who was an American version of Johnathan but better written.
@@cael4065 but you don’t have to strive, you pummel her team into the dirt 62 thousand times without her ever acknowledging it, and her champion status is not at all reflected in her battle skills.
We don´t even need to go as far as part 6, during part 3 multiple times he is no the be all end all to all situations. To some extent i think Giorno is closer to be a Gary Stu than Jotaro with the detriment that it made him one of the most boring Jojos and he basicaly lost the protag status to Bucciarati lol.
@@Gabrielfrota I know, it's just that part 6 is the indisputable take-down of that argument. And yh Bucciarati is the ultimate Jobro and I liked him more than Giorno. Heck I could say the same about Mista.
@Gabriel Frota I wouldn't say Girono is a Gary stu at all. Everything would have to go have gone absolutely perfect for to be called a Gary stu, but things definitely didn't go perfectly.
I'm in the same boat of being tired of people oversimplifying Nemona's character. People snub her time and again for her parent's wealth, skirt battles with her because of aptitude for battles and treat her unfairly for her position as student council leader. She catches so much unecesary hate in-universe when she's a genuinley nice person. Her parents are basically absent and she's so powerful she can't enjoy her passion; so I don't blame her for responding so excitedly and possessively to the main character because we actually give her the time of day.
@@shizachan8421 That's not bad theory and it would be an explanation for her hyperfixation's. However I'm a little hesitant to give her that label because she's kinda tone deaf and I'd hate to see people bring up the horrible "autistic people don't understand emotions" stereotype.
I never hated nemona but i never understood her excitement until you said this. Its easy to put yourself in her shoes if you ever had the experience where you are so good at a certain thing that noone in your friendgroup or anyone you can compete with doesnt excite you enough to enjoy it. For example you are the best smash player in your group of friends and relatives. Its hard to get them to play with you and when it happens its hard to enjoy. To find someone on your level or beyond. Thats amazing. You wanna get better. Something you havent done in a while.
@@kiogu_3348 I felt this as an autistic person. When you have a passion that you personally get excited about but there's literally no one who shares it or can get behind what you like. Bonus points if it's a niche interest. Worse when you get too excited and people outright dismiss what you like. So I relate to Nemona's massive fixation with battles. She's good at it, she's passionate about it in fact, but because maybe she's TOO good or just doesn't understand that not everyone shares that level of excitement, it's just hard for her to communicate with anyone until she meets the player.
@@yank3305 did you not watch the video, he said Nemona has the *grounds* to become a Mary Sue, but the game's writing is so good she isn't and is likable
Could Blue have the grounds to be a Gary Stu? His grandfather is a scientist known globally around the world, he was always a step ahead of you in the game and became champion. He was even always insulting and taunting you the player throughout the whole game. It was when he loses that his whole world came crashing down, he basically had a fit. Then Oak comes in and tells him he's disappointed in how he treated his Pokemon and that's how he lost.
@@yank3305 she's more of a counter example. She is an example of someone who *could* have been a Mary Sue, but she isn't because of the characterization. She's an example of how to make a strong female character correctly
there's a video out there describing how her team would turn out, and it's another level of brutal. To the point I wish the devs see it and implement it in DLCs
True, which I thought was also an interesting parallel to “gifted” children irl, where people treat them like they were somehow borne with their innate talents and don’t still put in hard work like everyone else.
Artist here, I related to that so hard. I've gotten the "you're so talented' comments or the "I wish I could draw as good as you but I can't draw stick figures" thing. And I'm like "It took YEARS of drawing to get to my level."
@@amirgarcia547 Exactly. She’s good at Pokémon battles because she loves them. That obsession naturally led to more hours of practice, creating a growing skills gap between herself and others. Looking at the game as a whole, there’s no reason to believe Nemona is in any way special aside from having rich parents.
Honestly Jotaro is way more interesting considering how a very convincing argument can be made that he acts the way he does due to being on the autism spectrum. I am not joking, there is a description by Araki of him that states Jotaro is constantly frustrated and pissed off because he feels like people should be able to tell what he feels and what his emotions are just by looking at him. Which considering this is when Jotaro is the stoic brick that he is, indicates someone with massive issues with interacting with other people. Thus being the punk he became was really someone who struggled to interact emotionally with the people around him due to mental divergence lashing out in frustration.
Add to that how blunt and simple Star Platinum is, a simple and clear expression of Jotaro’s feelings, and it really starts to make sense. Even Time Stop can be a metaphor for Jotaro learning how to adapt to situations better, he gains the ability right as he communicates his emotions, being pissed off, with DIO, something he kept to himself up until that point.
Interesting perspective. Being on the spectrum myself, I guess that would explain how I never seemed to have any trouble picking up on what his feelings were and was always as confused and frustrated as he was when it was called out by other characters for his lack of communication and acknowledgement of social norms.
So glad there's someone with taste in this comments section. When I first watched part 3 I was blown away by how much Jotaro (And even Kakyoin + Polnareff) reminded me of myself and other autistic people in my life. Especially when I was around his age.
Your theory is entirely wrong, though. Jotaro has consistently shown an extremely developed ability to read others' emotions (The D'arby brothers in particular), as well as being extremely adept at working through new situations (i.e. literally almost every Stand battle where he 300 IQ's his way around the enemy). I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he's annoyed by people not being able to read his emotions, when he himself was able to manipulate a master gambler into having a mental breakdown. The ONLY thing that backs up your claim is that he isn't very outwardly emotive-- which, I might add, is NOT exclusively to people on the autism spectrum. In fact, pretty much all men during the time Part 3 takes place would have been expected to be rather stoic. Jotaro just happens to be moreso than others. Other than that, Jotaro shows no signs of being autistic or being on the autism spectrum. In fact, considering the evidence I've provided, it's essentially impossible for him to be on the spectrum due to several personality traits being directly opposite of those exhibited by those on the spectrum. Jotaro is a classic 'Tsundere' persona-- Hard, stoic exterior, but a heart of gold inside. Easily showcased by how often he acts rude towards his mother, but is willing to go halfway across the earth and risk his life numberous times just to save her life. Sorry, dude. That's just how it is. Not everyone who isn't painfully average is on the spectrum.
I definitely think you hit a nail on Nemona. Her strength as a trainer and hyper fixation on battles is in the same breath endearing to most and not very appealing to others. Arven and Penny both have their qualms with her in opposition to my fondness of her and most people have to remind her to either chill out or read a room. In general, I think the game did a very good job of highlighting both her positive and negative traits as a character. She's probably the least complex character in the game but I think somehow she's my favourite (probably cause she reminds me of Ash in a couple ways). Also I would like to agree on how ROBBED we were of fighting Nemona's real team. I found her final vicrory Road battle very fun (especially after that massive pile of disappointment Geeta) but now I feel like she's still hiding her trump cards. I wanna see those probably level 80 monsters she has in that back pocket.
As it turns out, she has a team with perfect EVs, beneficial IVs, smart held items, beneficial natures, and competitive move pools. Wouldn't that be fun? A champion who uses all of the options at their disposal?
I wouldn't be surprised if Game Freak is holding off Nemona's battle for DLC so they can watch the game's Meta develop and hand craft a team that actually kicks.
To me, a Mary sue is deeply tied into the story and the way it treats them. A character who is a Mary sue in one setting/story may not be in another. All I'd ask is that they struggle and learn something or they fail and fall. Mary sues are bad because they erase all conflict and tension from the story.
I wouldn't necessarily say being deeply tied to the story is a bad thing, rather it's when a character's motivation, backstory, and/or development take a backseat to the plot that makes them a Mary Sue. Although I think that's what you mean anyway, I just wanted to add clarification.
I got late into the game and decided to actually go to classes in mesagoza. Bumping into nemona and seeing her fail to make friends bc of her status is pretty sad. Ppl absolutely want nothing to do with her 🥺 I think she really just wants a genuine friend who keeps up with her. It grew onto me. She pushes the player to get better and she is genuinely happy when you beat her unlike many IRL friends who can be jealous in a situation where u succeed and they don't. there coulda been more story added to it or find nemona in some random spots and it triggers cutscenes about her and her backstory(near gyms) but yea. She's not as bad as I thought.
If you go all the way through Nemona's story, including the endgame, her story is pretty sad (though not on Arven's level). She's just a kid from a rich family who is really lonely because her family is always away, and she's too competitive so it puts most kids at odds with her
@@shizachan8421 I agree and I appreciated the themes with Nemona, Arven, and Penny in Pokémon Scarlett and Violet because it's related to real life and genuine.
She's also relatable. One time, I downloaded a simple fighting game, some of my classmates saw me play and they wanted to play with me. Whenever it was my turn to play against aomeone, they think that the match has already been decided. I don't win all of the time, the game presents enough randomness, and me being dumb to lose a couple of times. But still, at some point when I wanted to play with the only guy that remembers the game he said "Nah, it won't be exciting if i always lose", I forced him to play and I won. Again. And again. And again. And i lost because of a train. And i won again. There i realized that he was right, when you're at the peak with no one higher or at the same level... you cah't go up anymore. Eventually I got used to just watching AI fight another AI because the outcome is random trying to ignore fact that I'm the only one who really wants to play.
I can probably explain Nemona’s battle lust. It can really be chopped up to: She’s f***ing lonely. Okay hear me out, she’s the best battler in school, comes from a rich family, and is the Student council president. How exactly do you approach someone like that without it sounding awkward. The story confirms that people detest her for her success so it would only make sense if she’s a character with no friends. The only way for her to get much natural interaction with people is through battling because otherwise, people will never approach her. It also explains why she’s so clingy to you as the MC as you are the “new kid” moving in, a person who has no comprehension of the weight behind Nemona’s titles, and you’re moving in right next to her. Its literally a once in a lifetime opportunity for her, so she clings onto you like a leech. That’s my theory anyways, and it makes me like Nemona a lot more than any other rival we’ve had in years.
The game even nudges at least something like this a little, too! IIRC you can ask Arven about asking Nemona for help, but he brushes it off because of how she's unapproachable, and at a few points it's mentioned that she's essentially lonely as a battler because she can't get into a good fight, but because you're finally here and because of what you can do in battles, that she's able to get what she was missing again.
I actually agree with you with Jotaro, he isn't a Gary Stu... He's just a badass teenage boy who's based on Clint Eastwood. As someone who has watched Jojo's in May-June in 2022, he's my favorite Jojo as a whole.
@@AmericanBrit9834 well it's either a gay italian mafia boss or somebody whose first instict with a magical rotation power is to consider the effect it will have with spaghetti. They both work really well but... I don't really know. Johnny just works better with his Jobro. They have good banter
@@kingoftheclams2887 I know, I don't really consider Johnny a Gary Sue due to his personality flaws and the fact that he absolutely had to work for his powers. Giorno I do but even then it's like a Gary Sue 0.5. He is one but nowhere near as bad as other examples in other series.
Hmm... interesting. And it kinda works because Anya doesn't care he is a spy and Yor is too naive. Here's my weird counter, we know Loid (Yor's husband, Anya's father) is a Gary Stu. Twilight is also a Gary Stu. BUT who is the guy behind the mask? For me the person behind the mask paints the idea that Loid is a loving husband and Twilight is the ultimate spy, but we barely know anything of the person's personals drives and needs. There are cracks in Twilight's and Loids facades, giving the idea that for more that he plans, there are unexpected outcomes. We also get peeks as for when the man behind the mask monologues about world peace and why he wants a peaceful world when he sees Anya play or Yor being happy. What I am saying is this: as a spy, the man has many masks. Loid and Twilight are Gary Stus because he wants them to be. But we cannot really judge him if he is or not based on his masks (Loid/Twilight).
Is Loid a Gary Stu though? Sure he always got perfect at his job but it's more because of his upbringing (War Orphan), personal goal (To stop war at all cost) and also the training he had with Handler. Apparently the training Handler put him through was so brutal he had PTSD just remembering it.
@@BlossomPathOnStage15 Gary/Mary Stus often have some sort of tragic backstory to make them more endearing to the audience and somewhat justify their perfection. I adore Spy x Family and consider it as one of my favorite mangas, but Twilight is definitely a Gary Stu. Whenever there is narrative tension, the question is less if Twilight can succeed but if the people he is working with can avoid slowing him down. Just look at the tennis tournament arc; there was never any question in that Twilight could win, with the conflict coming from if Nightfall could avoid letting her love for Twilight get in the way of the mission; the back of the volume for this arc even says such.
It's more of a Saitama type situation where he would be a Gary Stu if the story was different. Saitama would be a gary stu if OPM was a direct shonen where Saitama has to fight various threats to the earth. But instead it's about him searching for a worthy opponent despite being so OP himself. Likewise with Loid: the story isn't just spy work, but also him having to manage his unruly family and keep up appearances. That's where things get really tough
I don't fully agree with the assessment of Superman as a Mary Sue. Sue-like qualities? Sure. Full-on Sue? Not so much. If he were perfect enough to be a Sue I don't think that he'd need to have a secret identity. There's also the fact that things don't always work out perfectly for him. He couldn't save Pa Kent in many continuities, for example. A number of things that are considered Sue-traits I'd argue are attributed to his nature as the superhero archetype.
Marry Sues will continue to exist. We can only hope that the person who is writing them can at least make them entertaining and not annoying or garbage like other characters of the nature.
I’d say this’s overall a solid and well-made video breaking down Mary Sues, per usual. And certainly agree that both Jotaro and Nemona don’t fit this mold. Starting with Jotaro, people often mistake the stoic, collected person as being someone without flaws, which isn’t true at all. It’s just a personality type, and this’s shown perfectly in the fight with D’Arby where Jotaro is able to win by simply bluffing and causing D’Arby to be so shell-shocked that he can’t continue. Whereas it’s revealed right after that Jotaro had a terrible hand and could’ve actually lost if D’Arby didn’t catch his bluff. And even if he beats plenty of baddies, he still has his limits due to Star Platinum have a very short range, as well as needing to outsmart most of his opponents rather than simply punching them to death due to him fighting other stand users with their own deadly abilities, as you said. As for Nemona, despite being a super strong, Champion rank trainer, I wouldn’t call her a Mary Sue since instead of being cocky and arrogant like Blue, she just simply loves battling. And so having a new rival like you who actually has the potential to match her skills makes her excited and actually have something to strive towards, which kinda makes her an interesting deconstruction of a Pokémon rival due to being someone who’s already on top that you’re eventually able to fight without them holding back. Calling her a female Goku isn’t a wrong moniker, as she’s very impetuous and single-minded much like Goku is, but isn’t treated as this perfect trainer and is instead just a happy-go-lucky girl who happens to be strong. And while she isn’t the deepest character out there, and arguably has the least amount of development or characterization out of the three leads, she works very well for what she is.
For Nemona, I have a theory as to why you don't battle her real team: Because her real, strong team is all level 100, competitively trained and raised Pokémon with like 4 pseudo legendaries. There's no way a playthrough team will beat that
Pneumonia is actually my favorite rival since black and white, and the reason why is that she’s absolutely insane. Take Hop, he seems rational, but is obsessed with appearing every other route, I even made jokes he was a stalker in my first play through, but Nemona is actually insane, and on top of that she only appears about every other gym, she never randomly appears in a titan plot line wanting to battle, and I appreciate game freak is listening to our comments and actually turning the rivals insane as an excuse as to why they do what they do.
that conclusion really makes me think about the differences between judging characters from videogames and not from videogames. i don't know if you would be up for it but a deeper analysis on how differently the two are judged would be very engaging.
Mary Sue is a trope, and tropes are tools. There's a "wrong" and "right" way to use almost every trope. Including Mary Sue. Example 1: the Doom Slayer from Doom. He has almost no negative qualities, he is respected and/or feared by everyone, and the Doom universe constantly bends over backwards to emphasize his badassery. That qualifies him as a Mary Sue under just about every interpretation of the term. And yet he's one of the most beloved video game protagonists of all time. Why does it work? Because he's the player character in an over-the-top power-fantasy action shooter game. When you play Doom, you're not watching the Doom Slayer do badass shit -- *you* are the Doom Slayer, and *you* are the one doing badass shit. Example 2: Elysia from Honkai Impact 3rd. She has almost no negative qualities, she is respected and/or adored by everyone, and...well, to avoid spoilers let's just say she's _super_ important to the lore of the game. That qualifies her as a Mary Sue under almost every interpretation of the term. But in the year-and-a-half or so since she was first introduced she quickly skyrocketed to being one of the most beloved characters in the fanbase. Why does it work? Well first of all, she's really hot and really flirty. But more importantly, she's a truly kind and loving person whose unrelenting cheery optimism shines in stark contrast to the bleak and wretched world of Honkai Impact 3rd. ...also the fact that she's long dead (not a spoiler, it's one of the first things you learn about her). People tend to be more accepting of Mary Sue characters when they're already dead. Tropes are tools. There are very, very few inherently bad tropes, and Mary Sue ain't one of them.
Yup. It can definitely work in stories where relatability isn't necessary. Particularly ones where the development is external and the protagonist is the guiding force.
Mary Sue is one of them. Idk about Honkai Impact characters, but DS ain't a "Mary Sue" character TBF. Canonically speaking, Doom Slayer doesn't have much of a characteristic in the first place, plus, the plot doesn't revolve too much around him
@@enterurnamehere27 I'm sorry, have you even played the Doom games? Basically _everything_ in the plot and lore connects back to the Doom Slayer's badassery in some way. He's the only one the demons fear, he's the savior of humanity, he's the last rightful king of the Night Sentinels, and he's the one who single-handedly brings down both Heaven and Hell. All within a single game no less. That's about as "Mary Sue" as it gets. My point is _that's not a bad thing._ Again, "Mary Sue" is a trope, and tropes are tools. It's a trope that's often done poorly to be sure, but it _can_ be done right. The Doom Slayer is the perfect example of that.
Ive allways thought og spotting a marry sue in the same manor looking for a black hole: you look for a world and its challanges being warped around a figue, and at the center is the sue. A mary sue is a lable to describe when the challanges faced by the Sue are somehow cheepened by the author. If a character, such a Jotaro, is able to face (mostly) meaningful challanges, and overcome them in a way that doesnt invalidate the stakes, then that character isnt a sue.
So if I understand a comment corctly. A charcter to truly ba a Mary Sue needs to be at the center of their world, and wrap the rules of that world around themself to the point than in makes it seem like the trial they face are not even a challange for them. So let's say than a Character it's a God of some sort at the center of it's universe lore wise, but not evry single victory of theirs it's given to them on a silver plate, even if they do eventualy came out on top, and each time they need something more to win, such as a new power or a new ally or even to just find the confidance to go on, would they still count as Mary Sues?
@@nuotatorre8741 If the manor in which the character completes said challenges appears to stick to the rules of the world and common sense, I would say that is not a Mary sue. I mean, we have the character Gojo from Jujitsu Kaisan, who is essentially the most powerful being in the universe. And yet, he doesn't feel like a Mary Sue, since he still exists within the world, and yet the story is still able to have tension, due to him still having limitations.
See, the reason I think jotaro isn't actually a Mary Sue is because as time goes on, you notice the trauma of part 3 is getting to him. He's weaker, less confident, and slowly it cripples him to a point of tragedy in part 6. He's not some unsung hero who slowly builds up his strength. He's a falling star who constantly finds himself alone in the world, gradually losing his grip on the things he holds dear, and in a last ditch effort, he throws everything away just to save the one thing he can't afford to lose.
I love the part where Giorno dies about twice, but he was actually in another body, or he didn't really die and his stand evolved so that the other guy would die infinitely.
Yare Yare Daze - Do you understand?! In regards to people calling characters we don't like Mary Sues, I'm surprised I haven't heard the most recent version of She-Hulk being called a Mary Sue. I would say one character I think is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) is Saitama from One Punch Man...but that's the point. Here's a guy who got to be the powerful hero he wanted to be (what most people assume Mary Sues and Gary Stus are) allowing him to solve any problem in a single blow, and he's bored out of his mind and borderline depressed. What makes the show work, however, is we focus on other characters and their struggles (especially you, Mumen Rider, you wonderful man) and how they would respond to such a powerful being. Then again, his bored demeanor and peoples' general dislike of him could negate the Stu Status. Also, unrelated to Mary Sues, but can we take a moment to appreciate Nemona? She's one of the better rivals because of how she's testing you and pushing you to be better throughout the game, and she's clearly pulling her punches. As you said, though, it would be nice to actually face her at her best.
I agree about the story focusing not on Saitama but how others react to him and grow around him. I think we all know the real protagonist is Mumen Rider.
I would say that Saitama isn't a Mary Sue not because the story doesn't focus on him, but because the challenges aren't something he can fix with brute force: for all of his power, he doesn't have anything to use it on. As you say, he's bored and depressed. That in and of itself becomes his challenge, and when he gets story focus, its mostly about getting friends and things to care about that aren't fighting.
The reason why She-Hulk isn't called a Mary Sue, well, until arguably the end of the show BS, is that she's just a really badly adapted character who is extremely unlikeable.
I agree with you on korra but I have to point out that korra as a character had a lot of expectation by the fandom after the original series and how well the series and characters were written. On Goku; it can depends on the series, episode and if we're taking the dub into account. Dragonball is in the same boat as Pokemon to me. Where Goku is the face of the series and is 'needed' to keep going.
Jotaro's timestop was foreshadowed by the fact that Jonathan's body had a stand that was nearly identical to Joseph's hermit purple. Just like that connection, Jotaro was given a stand nearly identical to DIO's.
How much do you want to bet that Joseph went to his father and went like hey your great grandson needs help my ability ain’t all that useful but yours is and Jonathan being the good man that he his helps
@@ChiefMedicPururu I did explain it in English you just couldn’t understand going up to heaven and asking your dad to help with he great grandson against your families greatest enemy DIO
I thought of Nenoma as a parody of Pokémon players who played for *years* because of some of the things she says. She wants to battle newbies or anyone for that matter. Trains multiple Pokémon that she doesn't even use (she mentioned she had to go evolve/train about 10-20 of them at one point). She also learned how to train and battle with Pokémon as time went on. She wasn't Champion in a day's time. I just thought of her as female Goku as well as parody of veteran Pokémon players.
Another thing you can say when it comes to Mary Sues in video games, are the npc characters that can be seen as Writer's Pet, like Liara from Mass Effect. Easier to romance her. Regardless of your relationship she saves Shepard's body. She becomes one of the most powerful people in the galaxy with or without you. You cannot argue with her. You can either be distant or close friends if you didn't romance her. She's the voice of the galaxy if it fell to the Reapers, and was used to hype the announcement for the next game and even had a cameo in Andromeda. Along with many more detailed examples that people with far more time have covered.
The ending message. God does that hit me! I've seen how bad heard mentality an get firsthand. It's good to try and curb it. Even if it's only just a bit.
This is an amazing video! I use a lot of your videos for advice in my writing and one of my biggest fears is making a Mary Sue/Gary Stu so your input is really helpful
most recent almost mary su I can think of is in "Bad Guys" the fox mayor. legendary super thief. always right. never challenged. she kind of skirts that line, but as she's not the main character and is more a tool used to challenge the wolf's perspective I think she kind of gets a pass? like she is but not in too bad a way? not sure. would love some other opinions.
She at least has the justification of being a more seasoned thief compared to the Bad Guys, and she also makes mistakes during the climax. And most of all, she doesn't hog the spotlight everytime she's onscreen.
Man even I felt the pressure of namonas battle spirit and that's saying something and I love battling But it's really cool to have character who represents the eximent of battle like we all have bit dang I wanted to see her real team
For the Lightning segment, I get the complaints about her dangerously veering into Mary Sue territory, and from a certain point of view, it's true, mostly due to Motomu Toriyama, the games' director, who got way too attached to her, to the point of showing blatant favoritism for her in other games he made (the main character from Mobius Final Fantasy basically faboying over her after just meeting her being an example). HOWEVER. I would argue that, in her own story, she's still not really a Mary Sue. I admit I might be biased here, since I'm one of those strange beasts who actually like Lightning and the FFXIII series, but here's my two cents anyway. The problem with most Mary Sue characters is not that they are simply flawless, but that even if they have flaws or struggles, the universe around them tends to ignore them, and they don't suffer any consequences if they ever make mistakes. This doesn't apply to Lightning, in my opinion: the entire plot of XIII-2 and Lightning Returns is kickstarted by her insecurities and self loathing for inadvertently causing the events of the previous games. I like to see Lightning as a deconstruction of the "strong female character" archetype, in that her stoicism is treated as a huge flaw that leads her to push away others, and the fact that she still cares about them causes problems that bring her and others more suffering and lead her to repress her emotions even more. By the third game, which to be fair was plagued by a horrible translation, she has completely bottled herself up and her repressed emotions manifest as Lumina, and only by accepting her faults and flaws Persona 4 style she is able to get over herself. Not to mention most of the other main characters hate her now for one reason or another, and she has to gain back their trust, sometimes by opening up to them. Sure, she's strong and all, but for a Final Fantasy character that's almost a requirement: it's no different from other FF characters that got new powers from the crystals or gods, including her own companions. TL;DR, Lightning can have some Mary Sue traits, but I see her more as a deconstruction of one at best, similarly to how I see Anakin Skywalker as a deconstruction of one. The FFXIII series has its problems, but Mary Sue isn't one of them.
Just as you stand by your point abouts Korra, I still stand by mines that most of what you've said about her has been flat out wrong. Character development is definitely present in her character. She's not the same person at the end of Book 4 like she is in the beginning of book 1. Period. Korra is mainly disliked for not being Aang. Too many Avatar fans went into TLoK with nostalgia bias. Her personality traits (while definitely another reason some people hate her) are not only justified given her background, but are more or less the same traits Zuko had in the earlier books of Avatar. Also, if your gonna call Korra out for her only ass-pull of unlocking the Avatar state at the end of book 1 (which if you know the production behind this show, makes this a very cheap example to use), then the same should apply to Aang for discovering energy bending. Overall, its not my place to say weather you should like Korra or not, but objectivly speaking, she has no reason to be mentioned as much in this video as she is, even as a none example.
Agreed, people who act like Korra doesn’t have any development clearly didn’t get past season 1. Which I can get if they didn’t like the show, but you can’t just judge one aspect of a character without looking at them as a whole.
I always break it down to TWO type of Mary sue definitions: -lack of develop character who the universe/plot hands them everything without actually earning it and never have real threats no matter what the plot says. They may even retcon or go against the rules or lore of a universe. -a character who can't be criticized in-game [and in a Meta sense out of game by the fanatics of the character] by anyone, else that person is portrayed in game as wrong, evil, bad, a jerk and is sometimes killed off or force to admit marry-sue is right. While I do agree it has been watered down to much like the word dragon, I still feel like it can have at least one more use outside of the one prescribed to it.
The fact that you had to re-upload this video, that I found hilarious when it first came out, was just proof positive that Disney and the entire establishment was protecting their sacred cows.
Out of curiosity, has anyone noticed that there are a lot of overlap between Mary sues and the paragon archetype. That is, starting with a moral compass/ideal personality that does not waver or change, admiration from other characters due to their strength or personality, and depending on the story being a deus ex machina when the protagonist is in trouble. Of course, the paragon tends to take a secondary role more often than Mary sues, and if too strong, is often killed early. Characters such as Obi-wan, Goku, Captain America. This is not to say that these characters are necessarily bad, just something I noticed.
While i don’t completely hate him, leon feels like a gary stu. Where from what we see of him, it’s just raw power, no strategy. And everyone keeps raving on how he’s the undefeated champion with his super epic powerful charizard. and yeah he did train under a previous champion(mustard) to get to this point but that doesn’t really make him less of a gary stu. Although he did technically failed to defeat/catch eternatus so i guess that does make him less of one.
Aizen, I only lost because I wanted to lose, is a Mary Sue. His power is completely unexplained in story. He isn't descended from a great bloodline, he wasn't the son of the soul king, and he wasn't an amalgamation of other races. he was just born with natural power above almost everybody and had the MOST Powerful ability in bleach as a Shiki. The story revolves arounds Aizen's plans to an extent that the setting warps around him. He is an intimidating but poorly written character whose power invalidates the existence of most of his subordinates. As a general rule a leader on an organization should not be able to destroy all of his subordinates at the same time with ease as it makes the subordinates feel useless.
28:28 Entei, Professor Layton and Ai from Animal Crossing: The Movie should be there too. I mean the Animal Crossing: The Movie was mid but only because it was an Animal Crossing movie, there's not likely a good way to properly adapt the source material and not make a mid movie.
Mary Sue I've noticed for media in general has been hijacked and watered down by people who mainly just have a conscious or unconscious bias toward female protags actually being useful or somewhat independent lol Most recent I've seen is calling Freya from GoW Ragnarok a Mary Sue which is simply nonsensical if you actually know what the term means and play the game lol Feel like a lot of words like that have been watered down to mean nothing over the past few years really Rarely if ever see much use of the term Gary Stu. Usually just gets wrapped up into plot armor.
Yeah, it bothers me a little to say "Mary Sue isn't sexist because we have Gary Stu and people use it". YEAH, you can find people calling characters Gary Stus but it isn't nearly as widespread. The average person probably doesn't KNOW Gary Stu is a term, but I'd bet money most people have at least heard the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument if they so much as dip their toes near SW fandom. It's so big, as shown in this video, that the actress had to comment on it. When have you seen a male actor comment on whether their character is a Gary Stu? I can't think of any. In addition, in my experience with people calling characters Gary Stus, it exists MOSTLY to point out the hypocrisy of many people who call out "Mary Sue" at any remotely competent female character. Male wish fulfilment exists in COUNTLESS renditions of amazing and perfect action protagonists, but the second that character exists in a female body...
I'm not sure what basis anyone could possibly have to call Freya a Mary Sue but if they're uneducated enough to make that claim, I doubt anyone could change their mind at this point.
I love how you disproved the one video at the start of the JoJo bit by showing moments where it shows they're more than that. Also the slowdown on "funny cowards" as the shot of Narancia having CUT OFF HIS OWN TOUNGE is great.
The difference between a Mary Sue and an overpowered character is that the entire story revolves around a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Characters that seem to bend the tone of the story itself and are out of place are Mary Sues. A character can be overpowered and even well-liked without being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Nemona's weakness is an inability to care about Arvin losing his parents in any way shape or form and instead focusing on how cool the funni dragon is.
**Defending Jotaro:** 1) Every human is flawless, Jotaro is as weak as a human and could be killed in any given scenario - yes even being turned into a child. 2) Self Insert - he has no similarities to the author but if your argument is that the author chose to make a character like this - then every fictional character is 3) So angels willing kill now?
True same with Giorno yes he is pretty much Jesus but he isn’t a mary sue. He has been put out of commission like with Notorious BIG and almost died against Bruno, it’s obvious the only Jojo character that’s even close to being a self insert is Rohan though that’s still debatable, and for the Jesus thing he seems to be there to help others improve themselves.
8:22 NO! ROHAN IS NOT ARAKIS SELF INSERT, he stated in an interview that rohan is not similar to him, the only thing they have in common is that theyre both mangakas
What asshats said that Nemona was a Mary Sue?! She's not! She's battle crazy and you saying she's like Goku made me chuckle. I like her as a character and she's by far the "friendly" rival that constantly challenges the player. Even in the Champion vs Champion battle, praises the player for the win (I was hoping she'd give them a big hug with her usual enthusiasm). Then she immediately gets excited for a round two of their battle with different Pokémon teams, causing Clavel and Geeta to face-palm? 😆 Never change, Nemona.
As someone who is not a fan of Nemona, being a sue wasn't my problem at least (heck the main character has always been a sue, so the idea of the rival being one didn't cross my mind). It was mostly the writing actively undermining itself (I know Pokemon is not great writing, but it's usually not backpedaling on itself, besides USUM, but at least it wasn't in the same game). She's set up as the "looking for a worthy rival" type, that she wants to fight you at your best. But she also undermines chances to fight your best, and tries to fight you immediately after other major battles multiple times. Other characters have to step in so you can get a heal and be "at your best". Once could be just her eagerness, but doing it repeatedly just makes it look like she's waiting for the right time to strike when you're weak. She even does exactly this and battles you when you're entering a gym, while you're likely set up for that gym's type specialty. Meanwhile earlier she specifically runs from a battle when you accidentally meet her and her team wasn't ready. It's a case of her actions undermining the character idea. It was also pretty strange with the power level ouroboros they tried to pull between her and Geeta: waffling back and forth the whole game of who's built up as Paldea's strongest before finally landing on Nemona....and then the post game makes a higher leveled Geeta it's last boss despite her never holding back, and then an even higher level Nemona is available in the tourney.....it's a mess! What's even stranger is calling her current team her full power, implying it's stronger than whatever she used the previous year. Her team develops like a generic rival team adding on members found along the way, instead of subbing out some weaker links between battles. It's implied she does this in dialogue, but she doesn't do an N where the team varies between battles; even Hop was shown trying out new teams even if he kept the starter throughout, it wouldn't have been a new idea. The game tells us she has a variety to work with, but never shows. It'd be like if Blue was still using his Raticate in the final battle despite saying he assembled only the strongest Pokemon species he found. I also wasn't warmed when her first battle had her trying to send in her freshly KO'd starter back into battle before Clavell stopped her, not an action an experienced trainer should be trying.
I don't like the term Mary Sue because it draws people's attention towards the character instead of the writing. Bad characters doesn't exist. You just have to write the story around them to make them good.
Character-wise Korra is not a Mary Sue, but I would argue the writers treat her as if she is. She breaks the established rules of her own world and she never has to work for any of the powers previous Avatars had to earn. She is able to bend 3 elements as a child, pulls Airbending out of nowhere despite having her Chi paths blocked off (and she never got anywhere in training it), so it feels unearned. Aang comes back from the dead to give Korra back her Bending AND he throws in mastery of the Avatar State as a bonus. Something it took him 2/3rds of his original story to be able to use on command (and at great personal cost). Korra just has it handed to her. That's all just in Book 1.
@@shizachan8421 I have to disagree because we see in A:LTA that many Avatars begin their journeys as adults, and they still needed to go on said journeys to master the elements. Aang beginning his so young was the exception to the rule. It's also not just about the powers, but learning the philosophies, mindsets and attitudes of their teachers. Aang struggled with Earthbending because the philosophy and mindset needed to Earthbend goes completely against his Airbender upbringing and beliefs. The Avatar needs to learn about the cultures and peoples of their world to gain sympathy for them and understand how to adopt and honour their techniques, beliefs and ways of thinking. Korra did none of that, she had 3 of the elements handed to her in childhood (including Firebending, the one she should struggle the most with) and pulled off Airbending when it was most convenient for the climax. No other Avatar in history was able to do that, Wan only did because he actually went out of his way to be given the powers.
@@shizachan8421 Except we never saw an Avatar go on a journey to learn Airbending. Aang basically had to speedrun his training, and the people Korra could have been taught by would be very different from those who taught Aang. The circumstances, the training, and the experiences of each Avatar are unique. Korra would have struggled with Firebending where it came quite easily to Aang, seeing her overcome that hurdle could have been satisfying. Conversely she likely would have breezed through Earthbending because she is so stubborn and brash. Skipping important parts of the character journey because you cannot think of a way to make them unique is called "being lazy". You cannot set up a system your fictional world goes by, only to break it because it's inconvenient to you. Limitations breed creativity. Korra had no limitations on her Bending, so there was no creativity in her learning them. You are arguing for lazy writing and broken worldbuilding. Aang was shaped by his experiences, for the longest time he refused to Firebend because he hurt Katara by accident. Korra didn't learn shit.
Being able to bend 3 elements doesn't make her a Mary Sue, because she still took 13 years to master them. And we literally spent the entire first season watching Korra adapting to the airbender mindset, movesets and strengthening her spiritual connection gradually. She got airbending because the loss of her other elements took away her attachment to them. And Aang didn't come back from the dead. The first series already showed that the past lives leave an imprint of themselves for the next Avatar to interact with.
@@vetarlittorf1807 We've never seen or had it implied that an Avatar could Bend 3 of the 4 Elements as a child until Korra. Being a Waterbender she still shows she can Firebend without difficulty despite it being established that past Avatars (Aang included) struggle with their opposite element. But Korra can Firebend just as well as she can Waterbend, perhaps even better because it suits her aggressive personality.
@@PlanetZoidstar You're basing that off only two other Avatars out of possibly hundreds. And being a waterbender does not inherently make firebending difficult. It's about personality, not nationality. And while the environment of each nation can be a factor in shaping one's mentality, it's not what defines them. That's like saying every single German is a punctual hard-worker. Aang found earthbending difficult because he was passive. Roku had trouble with waterbending because he was uncompromising. And Korra had trouble with airbending because she was confrontational.
4:45 The problem is lack of consequences. Even tho when she mess up other people have to pay for it, or she just swift her fault to other person and when she pay for something like loosing her connections with the others avatar she get it restored without effort, Aang just snap his fingers and all of her problems are gone.
I think the best term I heard for a Marry/Garry Stu is someone who breaks the Universe around them for their benefit. Example: Rey from Rise of Skywalker. Gets force powers depending on what the story needs. Gains flight for a scene, near instant healing, lightning, teleporting stuff. Has random knowledge because the story needs it (recently read the one part on Sith holocrons). Is about to lose till Leia distracts Kylo. All this because the story needs it. Male example to be fair. Midadorian from MHA. One for all suddenly giving powers out of nowhere. This IS a lighter example as at the least he doesn't gain full control, and he needs to train to use it better. Still, that is a Gary Stu moment of the universe bending to what he needs. Now, is this perfect? No, not by a long shot. But I think it hits on one of the more damaging parts of this type of character: the universe bends and breaks to their will, and that bends and breaks the whole story for their needs.
Basically my pet peeve with Midoria. "Oh, it's about to be a story of how someone without powers can become a hero, through hard work and det-" "Hey kid, eat this hair. It will give you supapowers." Besides, it's not like it's impossible for quirkless people to be strong. Aizawa is basically quirkless, since his quirk is erasing other quirks. And multiple times he is forced to handle an enemy with a quirk while supressing another, essentially turning it into a quirk vs quirkless matchup. Same thing with Stain. My man's was one of the most menacing villains, took the collective effort of the three best students of the current generation. And, until he can make someone bleed, he is essentially quirkless as well. And Spoilers: And then the manga decided "oh, just one power? Not protagonist enough. Here are 6 more quirks for your troubles."
@@CommentPositionInformer I'm gonna disagree on some of these points. The show quickly became about the lead needing to learn to control his powers and continue with hero training so it's not really a bait and switch (End of episode 2 when he gets told it's possible if I remember). As for Aizawa and Stain, to call them "Quickless" is a MASSIVE disservice to them both. Aizawa in particular is a HUGELY powerful quirk. Erasing other's Quirks is key to his fighting style, as the main time I remember him fighting people without it, he's facing a bunch of lower levels who don't know who he's looking at and whose disabled, meaning you don't know if he's taken your weapon or not. His sash is also powerful, but I don't think it alone makes him a truly serious threat. And then there's Stain. A man who knew his limitations and used them to his best. He ambushed, he hit quick, he was skilled enough to get the one light hit he needed to win. Without his quirk he would have lost, and was only stopped because he faced constant new foes to fight who stopped him from finishing the job. But when they start teaming up on him, he starts losing. And remember, they are still not even done with 1 semester yet, they are still new to this! Overall while the show does show that Quirkless people can do well with skill, it also shows that without those quirks, you are simply outmatched by so many of the larger threats. That's why Aizawa is so powerful, why Stain needed to keep odds in his favor with attacking in shadows and away from large teams. The universe never shows Quirkless being true threats without majorly tipping the scales. Will agree on that last point though, that's the point they start making the man a true Gary Stu.
@@wesleyfravel5149 Exactly. It's not a big deal or anything, that's why I called it s pet peeve. And I'm not saying that Aizawa's and Stains' quirks don't matter. It's just that it doesn't make them stronger, or faster, or durable. Doesn't make attacks less lethal, or their own attacks stronger. Aizawa is a regular human, with the power to make other people regular humans. And Stain is very effective once he pulls his quirk off, he is just a regular human until them. These are weaknesses they had to learn to work around, which would be the perfect path for Midorya to take imo. That last point does suck. All Might defeated All For One with one quirk. Why the hell can't Midorya defeat Shigaraki the same way?
Id say the defining quality for Mary Sues is that regardless of how they actually conduct themselves, they get rewarded as if they did the right thing. If a character doesn't work but reaps the rewards as if they did, is loved by other characters despite their personality and behavior not warranting such a response, etc, yeah that's a Mary Sue. The cutoff is less important than the mechanism. Every additional 'freebie' you give a character, the harder you strain the suspension of disbelief. It's only to be used sparingly as a way to avoid even bigger problems. The reason we loathe the Mary Sue, I think, is because nobody would accidentally end up with that many slip ups around one character. It implies intent, usually an egotistical self validation.
To be fair i think the definition of mary sue has to be extended, at least for male characters because at some point in the early 2000s and late 90s, especially in japanese media writers of popular stories became really good at writing mary sues/gary stus who flew barely under the radar and not only get people to like them but get people to not recognize them as mary sues, unless they are cool and good looking in which case they are. That's literally the only distinction. The trick is to make the character super sympathetic and/or go through hardship, make them cool but not in certain ways. Like being good with women is a no-no. In a sense what im trying to say is that you just make them easy to self insert to for basement dwellers. And the popular shonen protags have always been good at that. If they're not rich or handsome and they aren't the messiah from the beginning then its fine to make them the messiah after a bit of training and almost dying a bunch. The other technique is to skirt the line of making them the ultimate guy, but not cross it. So making them good with women is bad, but having tons of women in the series into them is fine, as long as there isn't a good reason as to why they are interested e.g. handsome, tries to seduce them, etc. Getting physically or mentally damaged entitles you to pussy. Kirito is an example of a MC where the author had no idea how to do this. Harem protags too. Shonen writers are aware that they don't actually have to give the MC a harem they can just make them a self insert target for losers and then let the fanfic writers and artists do the rest. Even harem protags often aren't pursuing the women that are into them. They just accidentally fall and pull down their pants. It seems like its a japanese thing that actually trying to get a girlfriend (or boyfriend) and actively make moves to find a significant other are bad. And since anime has become way more popular over the last decade those values have trickled into western society for all people who aren't chads. I'm not saying this out of hatred for shonen protagonists. it's something i've noticed over the last 2 decades. A character i really like is ichigo kurosaki from bleach. He would be a mary sue if the author actually cared about him at all. But he doesn't and he explicitly said as much so that saves him. He has a frankly shoddy win/loss ratio compared to most other MCs. There are huge stretches of the story where he is completely absent and his fights are like half the length of side character fights sometimes. And he got offscreened by a side villain even after getting his final power up, then doesn't put up any sort of resistance against the final villain. At the end of the series after saving the multiverse he has a normal job as a translator, a normal house, one kid. He's not some king or god or even a celebrity. Whatever people's opinions on the series are he just can't be a mary sue the author doesn't like him nearly enough for that. Every MC gets one or two bullshit powerups. And yet he was always singled out as a mary sue above his peers. And the reason its like that for characters like him or sasuke uchiha is because they are less relatable to most anime fans. Too cool or something idk.
Honestly, I disagree about Lightning from FF XIII. Not about what you said about her in the first game, but for the sequels. I'm not defending them, as I believe they get worse with each game, but even with the sequels, I don't see her becoming a Mary Sue. In XIII-2, she's absent for almost the entire story, which is what causes her sisters adventure to go looking for her in the first place. Also, Lightning isn't written as perfect here, because the power up she gets from becoming the chosen one still isn't enough for her to overcome that game's villain, because she loses that fight. Her characterization here wasn't great, but she also doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue here IMO, because she isn't perfect. She gets a power up by literally being removed from her own place in history, then she's absent for most of the game, then the game ends with her being beaten off-screen and she's implied to be killed by the villain, at least that's what he claims. As for Lightning Returns, there's a stronger case there, but I still don't think she's written as perfect, but she is written poorly and has most of her character progression from the first game is completely erased until the end of the game. The reason for this is because she does have flaws here, or at least one very specific flaw: she's literally had her emotions suppressed by the villain of the game, a god of creation that saved her after the past game because it wants to use her as a tool to erase and recreate the world according to it's ideal, and she goes along with it for most of the game because of the way that God has screwed with her head. Altough her suddenly being able to fight was thna bunch of new weapons is definitely a Mary Sue quality. It's not a good story, and it's poorly written, but she doesn't come across as flawless. I think they just did a really bad job of telling her story. Gameplay wise though, she does come across as a Mary Sue.
@@eddieboston6540 I could've sworn she uses various types of swords and spears that were pretty different from what she originally had, and using something like a buster sword is wildly different from wielding a saber, because it requires different training to wield proficiently. But admittedly, I might be misremembering that. It's been a while, so I remember the plot of the game much more than the combat since the story stuck out a bit more despite it being the simplest in the trilogy. Although I still do think that her basically becoming a one woman party does come across as kinda mary-sue-ish, even if I still maintain that she isn't one, even in the third game.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince The problem with the gameplay and multiple weapons aspect is that this applies to pretty much any protagonist from any Final Fantasy that uses the job system: thanks to the crystals' blessing, the characters are immediately able to fight with anything. Are they overpowered or Mary Sues because of that? In my opinion, no. If anything, the fact that Lightning is the only character you can control lessens the Mary Sue factor, because you don't have other fighters that would be rendered useless by her versatility. Even the one-man army aspect is not Mary Sue-ish enough to me, especially because it doesn't apply all that much in story: the final battle is won when the other characters arrive.
i has an idea on how to make a mary sue a belivable thing, the actual, original, 12 year old girl being captain of a ship, i mean ....the rest of the crew die...either to a plague, infighting, enemy troops, maybe she's the only one to wake up from cryo sleep on the whole ship due to a malfuntion
Honestly I have been seeing the terms Mary and Gary Stu, being overused nowadays and no longer valid. Like most recently I was watching two videos from Synthetic Man about God Of War. One was reviewing the game itself and the other was a ranking video of 2022 games, what bothered me is that he called Freya a Mary Stu. All because of her almost besting Kratos in her boss fight, even though he was simplh caught of guard cause he didn't know it was Freya. Second there was a line of FRIENDLY BANTER. "You know I could have beat you know? If Atreus wasn't there.", that apparently labeled Freya as a Mary Stu. Also on a unrelated note, he called the game woke cause of adding black people in Norse Mythology. Even though GOW games aren't trying to be accurate with their Mythology, and because they added a gay couple in it. Even THOUGH it was a side quest and the other devs were paying respect to them, like he claims it's a agenda..the only agenda they have is PAYING respect for their dead devs.
Calling Freya a Mary Sue is very ridiculous when the only reason she came close to killing Kratos is because he wasn’t willing to hurt her due to considering her a friend, while she was driven by vengeance and bloodlust for him killing Balder. And her arc is in learning to let go of her revenge and move past it in order to fight a bigger enemy, that being Odin, and it’s great to see how her and Kratos’s relationship evolve throughout the course of the game. Especially when Kratos tells her how he knows the pain of her loss due to losing his own daughter. I’m not even touching on the other stuff though since they seem like one of *those* people. AKA ones who call any media that dares to have minorities in them as political/woke…just because they happen to be minorities. Besides, this’s the same game that has talking squirrel and a talking disembodied head on your hip throughout the majority of the game, and yet a black giant is the straw that breaks the camel’s back? Really????
"Yara Yara Daze" I am frankly enjoying the video so far, so a good video in my books for sure. Also, yes, talking about Mary Sue's but ends up talking about a male character first instead. "Ironic,"
Nemona's battle hungry nature could be her way of connecting with people. Her parents aren't really around, and she doesn't seem to have very many friends. Battling allows her to interact with people up until she becomes so strong that people start staying away. At that point, battling becomes a bit lackluster for her until she meets you, an up and coming trainer with the potential to take the Pokemon league. From there she starts to nurture you into the perfect rival, which also eventually makes her your friend.
James Heller from Prototype 2 is a total Mary Sue (or Gary Stue). He's made to replace the original MC Alex Mercer (who is so much cooler) and everything about hi feels like it was written just to show how much cooler he is than Alex (which he's not) he's always spouting edgy humor (which tbh I actually really like) and for some reason Alex can't consume James, which is never explained.
I feel like Rex from Xeno 2 was recognized by the writers in the story to be a Gary Stu and had to knock him down a peg. Rex is a blank slate of a man who literally dies but gets resurrected by the world's most powerful sword and person combo in his word, Pyra. You're expected to beat every battle the game throws at you with no exceptions but there are several battles where you will drain the enemies health bar to half or 0 and it will trigger a cutscene where Rex is getting his shit kicked in and looking like he contributed no ass kicking in the fight and when the cutscene starts right when your anime protag is having you immersed in the world like your him it gets really unsatisfying. I got pretty far into the game and I want to make this as spoiler free as I can, but Rex and Co needs to fight the most Jojo looking character in all of Xeno 2 and he pretty much soloed my team for a couple of hours. Eventually, I beat him, and it triggers a cutscene where he almost knocks out Rex, but another character literally makes him explode, giving little satisfaction in not "beating" him. Not 10 minutes later, you're asked to beat up the same dude who looks pretty whole for someone who should be everywhere rn and beat him while not only he gained 3 levels from two steps to the left ago but you need to beat his friend too who had a higher level. Literally even in that fight you lose to the duo once you have one of their health bars reach half until a power is discovered within your team that solos them without your party members.
Note: For some reason, even though I rendered the video in HD, youtube didn't want to. So my apologies on it only being at 720p, maybe down the line I'll try this again, but please excuse this mess up.
Another thing I'd like to note are oc's put in fnf mods. It's actually kinda Genius. You get to show off your oc, they lose to bf in a battle, and thus don't come off like a Mary Sue so much since well, bf who's not really shown to be that much stronger than a normal human was able to beat them.
Eh it’s fine. Don’t worry.
Hey Master, just wanted to let you know that I'm doing fine, and that Stone Ocean has inspired me to do better, and turn things around. I'm planning to make the next big step in growing my channel in a few months.
Hopefully then, I'll be able to make up for any tiresome requests or raised eyebrows I've caused.
Yara yara daze. Do you understand?
Nobody has ever called Nemona and Jotaro mary/gary Sues.
Honestly having Jotero and Nemona two characters that you can argue are Mary sue's by the accepted definition are still loved characters
I would argue Jonathan Jostar is more of a Mary Sue then Jotaro. Flawless, unshakable moral compass, has someone teach him how to use a power to kill the exact thing he needs to kill, uses that power to do basically whatever he needs at the given situation. Yes, he dies at the end but he ultimately prevent the rise of a monster who wanted to take over the world.
they are cool
@@C24U_ well, Johnathan is like not a Mary Sue, but you can say that he has a Boy Scout personality. And you have Johnny Joestar from Steel ball run, who was an American version of Johnathan but better written.
Nemona is a rival that you have to strive to overcome, that just makes her a good video game enemy
@@cael4065 but you don’t have to strive, you pummel her team into the dirt 62 thousand times without her ever acknowledging it, and her champion status is not at all reflected in her battle skills.
There is one thing that debunks the whole "Jotaro is a Mary sue" argument and that's the fact that part 6 exists.
We don´t even need to go as far as part 6, during part 3 multiple times he is no the be all end all to all situations.
To some extent i think Giorno is closer to be a Gary Stu than Jotaro with the detriment that it made him one of the most boring Jojos and he basicaly lost the protag status to Bucciarati lol.
@@Gabrielfrota I know, it's just that part 6 is the indisputable take-down of that argument.
And yh Bucciarati is the ultimate Jobro and I liked him more than Giorno. Heck I could say the same about Mista.
@Gabriel Frota I wouldn't say Girono is a Gary stu at all. Everything would have to go have gone absolutely perfect for to be called a Gary stu, but things definitely didn't go perfectly.
@@Gabrielfrota Nah, Giorno ain't one either.
@@slobertooth1358 Never said he was, i said he was, closer than Jotaro, being close to be a Gary Stu doesn´t mean that the character is one.
I'm in the same boat of being tired of people oversimplifying Nemona's character. People snub her time and again for her parent's wealth, skirt battles with her because of aptitude for battles and treat her unfairly for her position as student council leader. She catches so much unecesary hate in-universe when she's a genuinley nice person. Her parents are basically absent and she's so powerful she can't enjoy her passion; so I don't blame her for responding so excitedly and possessively to the main character because we actually give her the time of day.
@@shizachan8421 That's not bad theory and it would be an explanation for her hyperfixation's. However I'm a little hesitant to give her that label because she's kinda tone deaf and I'd hate to see people bring up the horrible "autistic people don't understand emotions" stereotype.
I never hated nemona but i never understood her excitement until you said this.
Its easy to put yourself in her shoes if you ever had the experience where you are so good at a certain thing that noone in your friendgroup or anyone you can compete with doesnt excite you enough to enjoy it.
For example you are the best smash player in your group of friends and relatives. Its hard to get them to play with you and when it happens its hard to enjoy.
To find someone on your level or beyond. Thats amazing. You wanna get better. Something you havent done in a while.
my character looked down and then walked towards nemona so it looked like he was trying to look under her skirt
@@shizachan8421 i wish that if theres another team rainbow rocket we get to fight penny
@@kiogu_3348 I felt this as an autistic person. When you have a passion that you personally get excited about but there's literally no one who shares it or can get behind what you like. Bonus points if it's a niche interest. Worse when you get too excited and people outright dismiss what you like.
So I relate to Nemona's massive fixation with battles. She's good at it, she's passionate about it in fact, but because maybe she's TOO good or just doesn't understand that not everyone shares that level of excitement, it's just hard for her to communicate with anyone until she meets the player.
Wait, people called Nemona a Mary Sue?
With how Pokemon games go, she's defeatable. Not a Mary Sue.
People don't, thats the thing with Mangakamen now, he pulls stuff out of his ass
@@yank3305 did you not watch the video, he said Nemona has the *grounds* to become a Mary Sue, but the game's writing is so good she isn't and is likable
Could Blue have the grounds to be a Gary Stu? His grandfather is a scientist known globally around the world, he was always a step ahead of you in the game and became champion. He was even always insulting and taunting you the player throughout the whole game. It was when he loses that his whole world came crashing down, he basically had a fit. Then Oak comes in and tells him he's disappointed in how he treated his Pokemon and that's how he lost.
@@SuperYoshiMan still don't understand to use Nemona as an example for a Mary Sue
@@yank3305 she's more of a counter example. She is an example of someone who *could* have been a Mary Sue, but she isn't because of the characterization. She's an example of how to make a strong female character correctly
Who else wishes we got Nemona’s real team as the secret final boss on the level of Red or Steven from past games
there's a video out there describing how her team would turn out, and it's another level of brutal.
To the point I wish the devs see it and implement it in DLCs
...
@@diersteinjulien6773 What's the name of the video and channel?
@@diersteinjulien6773 I wish they would have just put it in the game to begin with.
@@guyk768 The New HARDEST Pokemon Battle - Nemona Postgame Superboss Guide / by Imported Cheese
th-cam.com/video/kleARQpWtwc/w-d-xo.html
It should also be noted that post-game, Nemona takes offense that others assumed she’s a gifted trainer, ignoring the hard work she puts in.
True, which I thought was also an interesting parallel to “gifted” children irl, where people treat them like they were somehow borne with their innate talents and don’t still put in hard work like everyone else.
Artist here, I related to that so hard. I've gotten the "you're so talented' comments or the "I wish I could draw as good as you but I can't draw stick figures" thing. And I'm like "It took YEARS of drawing to get to my level."
@@angelsartandgaming No one asked + ai make better art then you
I don't care.
@@amirgarcia547 Exactly. She’s good at Pokémon battles because she loves them. That obsession naturally led to more hours of practice, creating a growing skills gap between herself and others. Looking at the game as a whole, there’s no reason to believe Nemona is in any way special aside from having rich parents.
Honestly Jotaro is way more interesting considering how a very convincing argument can be made that he acts the way he does due to being on the autism spectrum. I am not joking, there is a description by Araki of him that states Jotaro is constantly frustrated and pissed off because he feels like people should be able to tell what he feels and what his emotions are just by looking at him. Which considering this is when Jotaro is the stoic brick that he is, indicates someone with massive issues with interacting with other people. Thus being the punk he became was really someone who struggled to interact emotionally with the people around him due to mental divergence lashing out in frustration.
Add to that how blunt and simple Star Platinum is, a simple and clear expression of Jotaro’s feelings, and it really starts to make sense.
Even Time Stop can be a metaphor for Jotaro learning how to adapt to situations better, he gains the ability right as he communicates his emotions, being pissed off, with DIO, something he kept to himself up until that point.
Punchy boy
Interesting perspective. Being on the spectrum myself, I guess that would explain how I never seemed to have any trouble picking up on what his feelings were and was always as confused and frustrated as he was when it was called out by other characters for his lack of communication and acknowledgement of social norms.
So glad there's someone with taste in this comments section. When I first watched part 3 I was blown away by how much Jotaro (And even Kakyoin + Polnareff) reminded me of myself and other autistic people in my life. Especially when I was around his age.
Your theory is entirely wrong, though. Jotaro has consistently shown an extremely developed ability to read others' emotions (The D'arby brothers in particular), as well as being extremely adept at working through new situations (i.e. literally almost every Stand battle where he 300 IQ's his way around the enemy). I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that he's annoyed by people not being able to read his emotions, when he himself was able to manipulate a master gambler into having a mental breakdown. The ONLY thing that backs up your claim is that he isn't very outwardly emotive-- which, I might add, is NOT exclusively to people on the autism spectrum. In fact, pretty much all men during the time Part 3 takes place would have been expected to be rather stoic. Jotaro just happens to be moreso than others. Other than that, Jotaro shows no signs of being autistic or being on the autism spectrum. In fact, considering the evidence I've provided, it's essentially impossible for him to be on the spectrum due to several personality traits being directly opposite of those exhibited by those on the spectrum.
Jotaro is a classic 'Tsundere' persona-- Hard, stoic exterior, but a heart of gold inside. Easily showcased by how often he acts rude towards his mother, but is willing to go halfway across the earth and risk his life numberous times just to save her life. Sorry, dude. That's just how it is. Not everyone who isn't painfully average is on the spectrum.
I definitely think you hit a nail on Nemona. Her strength as a trainer and hyper fixation on battles is in the same breath endearing to most and not very appealing to others. Arven and Penny both have their qualms with her in opposition to my fondness of her and most people have to remind her to either chill out or read a room. In general, I think the game did a very good job of highlighting both her positive and negative traits as a character. She's probably the least complex character in the game but I think somehow she's my favourite (probably cause she reminds me of Ash in a couple ways).
Also I would like to agree on how ROBBED we were of fighting Nemona's real team. I found her final vicrory Road battle very fun (especially after that massive pile of disappointment Geeta) but now I feel like she's still hiding her trump cards. I wanna see those probably level 80 monsters she has in that back pocket.
As it turns out, she has a team with perfect EVs, beneficial IVs, smart held items, beneficial natures, and competitive move pools. Wouldn't that be fun? A champion who uses all of the options at their disposal?
I wouldn't be surprised if Game Freak is holding off Nemona's battle for DLC so they can watch the game's Meta develop and hand craft a team that actually kicks.
To me, a Mary sue is deeply tied into the story and the way it treats them.
A character who is a Mary sue in one setting/story may not be in another.
All I'd ask is that they struggle and learn something or they fail and fall.
Mary sues are bad because they erase all conflict and tension from the story.
I wouldn't necessarily say being deeply tied to the story is a bad thing, rather it's when a character's motivation, backstory, and/or development take a backseat to the plot that makes them a Mary Sue. Although I think that's what you mean anyway, I just wanted to add clarification.
@@iamabucket13 deeply tied to being a self insert of the writer
I got late into the game and decided to actually go to classes in mesagoza. Bumping into nemona and seeing her fail to make friends bc of her status is pretty sad. Ppl absolutely want nothing to do with her 🥺 I think she really just wants a genuine friend who keeps up with her. It grew onto me. She pushes the player to get better and she is genuinely happy when you beat her unlike many IRL friends who can be jealous in a situation where u succeed and they don't. there coulda been more story added to it or find nemona in some random spots and it triggers cutscenes about her and her backstory(near gyms) but yea. She's not as bad as I thought.
If you go all the way through Nemona's story, including the endgame, her story is pretty sad (though not on Arven's level). She's just a kid from a rich family who is really lonely because her family is always away, and she's too competitive so it puts most kids at odds with her
@@shizachan8421 I agree and I appreciated the themes with Nemona, Arven, and Penny in Pokémon Scarlett and Violet because it's related to real life and genuine.
She's also relatable. One time, I downloaded a simple fighting game, some of my classmates saw me play and they wanted to play with me. Whenever it was my turn to play against aomeone, they think that the match has already been decided. I don't win all of the time, the game presents enough randomness, and me being dumb to lose a couple of times. But still, at some point when I wanted to play with the only guy that remembers the game he said "Nah, it won't be exciting if i always lose", I forced him to play and I won. Again. And again. And again. And i lost because of a train. And i won again. There i realized that he was right, when you're at the peak with no one higher or at the same level... you cah't go up anymore. Eventually I got used to just watching AI fight another AI because the outcome is random trying to ignore fact that I'm the only one who really wants to play.
I can probably explain Nemona’s battle lust. It can really be chopped up to: She’s f***ing lonely.
Okay hear me out, she’s the best battler in school, comes from a rich family, and is the Student council president. How exactly do you approach someone like that without it sounding awkward. The story confirms that people detest her for her success so it would only make sense if she’s a character with no friends. The only way for her to get much natural interaction with people is through battling because otherwise, people will never approach her.
It also explains why she’s so clingy to you as the MC as you are the “new kid” moving in, a person who has no comprehension of the weight behind Nemona’s titles, and you’re moving in right next to her. Its literally a once in a lifetime opportunity for her, so she clings onto you like a leech.
That’s my theory anyways, and it makes me like Nemona a lot more than any other rival we’ve had in years.
No wonder she's memed as a Yandere...
The game even nudges at least something like this a little, too! IIRC you can ask Arven about asking Nemona for help, but he brushes it off because of how she's unapproachable, and at a few points it's mentioned that she's essentially lonely as a battler because she can't get into a good fight, but because you're finally here and because of what you can do in battles, that she's able to get what she was missing again.
More like a yandera
I actually agree with you with Jotaro, he isn't a Gary Stu... He's just a badass teenage boy who's based on Clint Eastwood.
As someone who has watched Jojo's in May-June in 2022, he's my favorite Jojo as a whole.
You just wait until you see Johnny
Johnny? Seriously? Giorno is right there.
@@AmericanBrit9834 well it's either a gay italian mafia boss or somebody whose first instict with a magical rotation power is to consider the effect it will have with spaghetti. They both work really well but... I don't really know. Johnny just works better with his Jobro. They have good banter
@@kingoftheclams2887 I know, I don't really consider Johnny a Gary Sue due to his personality flaws and the fact that he absolutely had to work for his powers. Giorno I do but even then it's like a Gary Sue 0.5. He is one but nowhere near as bad as other examples in other series.
@@AmericanBrit9834 i wasn't talking about gary sues. The commenter was talking about their favourite jojo
Mary Sue's can work when it's in a comedy. Loid from Spy Famly is a borderline Gary Stu but that's kinda sorta the joke.
Hmm... interesting. And it kinda works because Anya doesn't care he is a spy and Yor is too naive.
Here's my weird counter, we know Loid (Yor's husband, Anya's father) is a Gary Stu. Twilight is also a Gary Stu. BUT who is the guy behind the mask? For me the person behind the mask paints the idea that Loid is a loving husband and Twilight is the ultimate spy, but we barely know anything of the person's personals drives and needs. There are cracks in Twilight's and Loids facades, giving the idea that for more that he plans, there are unexpected outcomes. We also get peeks as for when the man behind the mask monologues about world peace and why he wants a peaceful world when he sees Anya play or Yor being happy.
What I am saying is this: as a spy, the man has many masks. Loid and Twilight are Gary Stus because he wants them to be. But we cannot really judge him if he is or not based on his masks (Loid/Twilight).
@@icarue993 Interesting indeed.
Is Loid a Gary Stu though?
Sure he always got perfect at his job but it's more because of his upbringing (War Orphan), personal goal (To stop war at all cost) and also the training he had with Handler. Apparently the training Handler put him through was so brutal he had PTSD just remembering it.
@@BlossomPathOnStage15 Gary/Mary Stus often have some sort of tragic backstory to make them more endearing to the audience and somewhat justify their perfection.
I adore Spy x Family and consider it as one of my favorite mangas, but Twilight is definitely a Gary Stu. Whenever there is narrative tension, the question is less if Twilight can succeed but if the people he is working with can avoid slowing him down. Just look at the tennis tournament arc; there was never any question in that Twilight could win, with the conflict coming from if Nightfall could avoid letting her love for Twilight get in the way of the mission; the back of the volume for this arc even says such.
It's more of a Saitama type situation where he would be a Gary Stu if the story was different. Saitama would be a gary stu if OPM was a direct shonen where Saitama has to fight various threats to the earth. But instead it's about him searching for a worthy opponent despite being so OP himself.
Likewise with Loid: the story isn't just spy work, but also him having to manage his unruly family and keep up appearances. That's where things get really tough
Superman is a perfect example of a mary sue/gary stu done properly. His is not a struggle to be the best, but to try to fit in as a god among mortals.
@Kekyoin really? That's the best you got? if you are going to insult someone please be original.
@Kekyoin so you're lazy, just like every wannabe writer then.
@Kekyoin wow a repeat. like that does anything but prove me right.
@Kekyoin Because I am right about Super Man? why does that make me a clown? why do people want lazy boring unimaginative shit?
I don't fully agree with the assessment of Superman as a Mary Sue. Sue-like qualities? Sure. Full-on Sue? Not so much. If he were perfect enough to be a Sue I don't think that he'd need to have a secret identity. There's also the fact that things don't always work out perfectly for him. He couldn't save Pa Kent in many continuities, for example. A number of things that are considered Sue-traits I'd argue are attributed to his nature as the superhero archetype.
Marry Sues will continue to exist. We can only hope that the person who is writing them can at least make them entertaining and not annoying or garbage like other characters of the nature.
I’d say this’s overall a solid and well-made video breaking down Mary Sues, per usual. And certainly agree that both Jotaro and Nemona don’t fit this mold. Starting with Jotaro, people often mistake the stoic, collected person as being someone without flaws, which isn’t true at all. It’s just a personality type, and this’s shown perfectly in the fight with D’Arby where Jotaro is able to win by simply bluffing and causing D’Arby to be so shell-shocked that he can’t continue. Whereas it’s revealed right after that Jotaro had a terrible hand and could’ve actually lost if D’Arby didn’t catch his bluff. And even if he beats plenty of baddies, he still has his limits due to Star Platinum have a very short range, as well as needing to outsmart most of his opponents rather than simply punching them to death due to him fighting other stand users with their own deadly abilities, as you said.
As for Nemona, despite being a super strong, Champion rank trainer, I wouldn’t call her a Mary Sue since instead of being cocky and arrogant like Blue, she just simply loves battling. And so having a new rival like you who actually has the potential to match her skills makes her excited and actually have something to strive towards, which kinda makes her an interesting deconstruction of a Pokémon rival due to being someone who’s already on top that you’re eventually able to fight without them holding back. Calling her a female Goku isn’t a wrong moniker, as she’s very impetuous and single-minded much like Goku is, but isn’t treated as this perfect trainer and is instead just a happy-go-lucky girl who happens to be strong. And while she isn’t the deepest character out there, and arguably has the least amount of development or characterization out of the three leads, she works very well for what she is.
For Nemona, I have a theory as to why you don't battle her real team:
Because her real, strong team is all level 100, competitively trained and raised Pokémon with like 4 pseudo legendaries. There's no way a playthrough team will beat that
SUPER BOSS! SUPER BOSS! SUPER BOSS!
Pneumonia is actually my favorite rival since black and white, and the reason why is that she’s absolutely insane. Take Hop, he seems rational, but is obsessed with appearing every other route, I even made jokes he was a stalker in my first play through, but Nemona is actually insane, and on top of that she only appears about every other gym, she never randomly appears in a titan plot line wanting to battle, and I appreciate game freak is listening to our comments and actually turning the rivals insane as an excuse as to why they do what they do.
I can confirm, my favorite rival is pneumonia
that conclusion really makes me think about the differences between judging characters from videogames and not from videogames. i don't know if you would be up for it but a deeper analysis on how differently the two are judged would be very engaging.
Mary Sue is a trope, and tropes are tools. There's a "wrong" and "right" way to use almost every trope. Including Mary Sue.
Example 1: the Doom Slayer from Doom.
He has almost no negative qualities, he is respected and/or feared by everyone, and the Doom universe constantly bends over backwards to emphasize his badassery. That qualifies him as a Mary Sue under just about every interpretation of the term. And yet he's one of the most beloved video game protagonists of all time. Why does it work? Because he's the player character in an over-the-top power-fantasy action shooter game. When you play Doom, you're not watching the Doom Slayer do badass shit -- *you* are the Doom Slayer, and *you* are the one doing badass shit.
Example 2: Elysia from Honkai Impact 3rd. She has almost no negative qualities, she is respected and/or adored by everyone, and...well, to avoid spoilers let's just say she's _super_ important to the lore of the game. That qualifies her as a Mary Sue under almost every interpretation of the term. But in the year-and-a-half or so since she was first introduced she quickly skyrocketed to being one of the most beloved characters in the fanbase. Why does it work? Well first of all, she's really hot and really flirty. But more importantly, she's a truly kind and loving person whose unrelenting cheery optimism shines in stark contrast to the bleak and wretched world of Honkai Impact 3rd.
...also the fact that she's long dead (not a spoiler, it's one of the first things you learn about her). People tend to be more accepting of Mary Sue characters when they're already dead.
Tropes are tools. There are very, very few inherently bad tropes, and Mary Sue ain't one of them.
oh my god thank you
Yup. It can definitely work in stories where relatability isn't necessary. Particularly ones where the development is external and the protagonist is the guiding force.
Mary Sue is one of them. Idk about Honkai Impact characters, but DS ain't a "Mary Sue" character TBF. Canonically speaking, Doom Slayer doesn't have much of a characteristic in the first place, plus, the plot doesn't revolve too much around him
@@enterurnamehere27 I'm sorry, have you even played the Doom games? Basically _everything_ in the plot and lore connects back to the Doom Slayer's badassery in some way. He's the only one the demons fear, he's the savior of humanity, he's the last rightful king of the Night Sentinels, and he's the one who single-handedly brings down both Heaven and Hell. All within a single game no less. That's about as "Mary Sue" as it gets.
My point is _that's not a bad thing._ Again, "Mary Sue" is a trope, and tropes are tools. It's a trope that's often done poorly to be sure, but it _can_ be done right. The Doom Slayer is the perfect example of that.
Pretty sure Doomguy is best described as a walking power fantasy instead of a character.
Ive allways thought og spotting a marry sue in the same manor looking for a black hole: you look for a world and its challanges being warped around a figue, and at the center is the sue. A mary sue is a lable to describe when the challanges faced by the Sue are somehow cheepened by the author. If a character, such a Jotaro, is able to face (mostly) meaningful challanges, and overcome them in a way that doesnt invalidate the stakes, then that character isnt a sue.
So if I understand a comment corctly. A charcter to truly ba a Mary Sue needs to be at the center of their world, and wrap the rules of that world around themself to the point than in makes it seem like the trial they face are not even a challange for them. So let's say than a Character it's a God of some sort at the center of it's universe lore wise, but not evry single victory of theirs it's given to them on a silver plate, even if they do eventualy came out on top, and each time they need something more to win, such as a new power or a new ally or even to just find the confidance to go on, would they still count as Mary Sues?
@@nuotatorre8741 If the manor in which the character completes said challenges appears to stick to the rules of the world and common sense, I would say that is not a Mary sue. I mean, we have the character Gojo from Jujitsu Kaisan, who is essentially the most powerful being in the universe. And yet, he doesn't feel like a Mary Sue, since he still exists within the world, and yet the story is still able to have tension, due to him still having limitations.
@@for4thwind264 Ok thank you so much.
Yara yare daze...
I never once thought of Jotaro as a Gary Stu. He was just super sensitive and afraid to show his emotions. Hence the tough guy act.
See, the reason I think jotaro isn't actually a Mary Sue is because as time goes on, you notice the trauma of part 3 is getting to him. He's weaker, less confident, and slowly it cripples him to a point of tragedy in part 6. He's not some unsung hero who slowly builds up his strength. He's a falling star who constantly finds himself alone in the world, gradually losing his grip on the things he holds dear, and in a last ditch effort, he throws everything away just to save the one thing he can't afford to lose.
I love the part where Giorno dies about twice, but he was actually in another body, or he didn't really die and his stand evolved so that the other guy would die infinitely.
The biggest problem, in my opinion, with Lightning in the 13 sequels is that SE transformed her into a fashion model.
Soldier, Goddess... _Louis Vuitton Model._ This is why people like Senator Tifa Lockhart or Y'shtola Rhul more.
Mary sues really should've ended before they became prominent in writing.
If they are utilized in stories where comedy is the point, then it can technically work well.
I'd say my favorite definition of "Mary Sue" is "The universe bends unnaturally to prop up the character"
Yare Yare Daze - Do you understand?!
In regards to people calling characters we don't like Mary Sues, I'm surprised I haven't heard the most recent version of She-Hulk being called a Mary Sue.
I would say one character I think is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) is Saitama from One Punch Man...but that's the point. Here's a guy who got to be the powerful hero he wanted to be (what most people assume Mary Sues and Gary Stus are) allowing him to solve any problem in a single blow, and he's bored out of his mind and borderline depressed. What makes the show work, however, is we focus on other characters and their struggles (especially you, Mumen Rider, you wonderful man) and how they would respond to such a powerful being. Then again, his bored demeanor and peoples' general dislike of him could negate the Stu Status.
Also, unrelated to Mary Sues, but can we take a moment to appreciate Nemona? She's one of the better rivals because of how she's testing you and pushing you to be better throughout the game, and she's clearly pulling her punches. As you said, though, it would be nice to actually face her at her best.
I agree about the story focusing not on Saitama but how others react to him and grow around him. I think we all know the real protagonist is Mumen Rider.
I would say that Saitama isn't a Mary Sue not because the story doesn't focus on him, but because the challenges aren't something he can fix with brute force: for all of his power, he doesn't have anything to use it on. As you say, he's bored and depressed. That in and of itself becomes his challenge, and when he gets story focus, its mostly about getting friends and things to care about that aren't fighting.
The reason why She-Hulk isn't called a Mary Sue, well, until arguably the end of the show BS, is that she's just a really badly adapted character who is extremely unlikeable.
Namona isn't a Mary Sue. Just like Goku she just through her passions accidentally understands the gameplay mechanics. .-.
I agree with you on korra but I have to point out that korra as a character had a lot of expectation by the fandom after the original series and how well the series and characters were written. On Goku; it can depends on the series, episode and if we're taking the dub into account. Dragonball is in the same boat as Pokemon to me. Where Goku is the face of the series and is 'needed' to keep going.
7:48 Well obviously, everyone knows Rohan Kishibe is the self insert lol
Jotaro's timestop was foreshadowed by the fact that Jonathan's body had a stand that was nearly identical to Joseph's hermit purple. Just like that connection, Jotaro was given a stand nearly identical to DIO's.
How much do you want to bet that Joseph went to his father and went like hey your great grandson needs help my ability ain’t all that useful but yours is and Jonathan being the good man that he his helps
@@levievil9220 In English, please?
@@ChiefMedicPururu I did explain it in English you just couldn’t understand going up to heaven and asking your dad to help with he great grandson against your families greatest enemy DIO
@@levievil9220 Joseph's dad is George II, not Jonathan.
@@ChiefMedicPururu oh wait why does that feel wrong to say
Nemona is that competetive Smogon player Casuals don't wanna go near to because her style of "playing the game" is just too overkill for them
15:42 As a Squall fan, it definitely hurts when people shat on him for that reason 🥲
I thought of Nenoma as a parody of Pokémon players who played for *years* because of some of the things she says.
She wants to battle newbies or anyone for that matter. Trains multiple Pokémon that she doesn't even use (she mentioned she had to go evolve/train about 10-20 of them at one point).
She also learned how to train and battle with Pokémon as time went on. She wasn't Champion in a day's time.
I just thought of her as female Goku as well as parody of veteran Pokémon players.
Another thing you can say when it comes to Mary Sues in video games, are the npc characters that can be seen as Writer's Pet, like Liara from Mass Effect.
Easier to romance her. Regardless of your relationship she saves Shepard's body. She becomes one of the most powerful people in the galaxy with or without you. You cannot argue with her. You can either be distant or close friends if you didn't romance her. She's the voice of the galaxy if it fell to the Reapers, and was used to hype the announcement for the next game and even had a cameo in Andromeda.
Along with many more detailed examples that people with far more time have covered.
The ending message. God does that hit me! I've seen how bad heard mentality an get firsthand. It's good to try and curb it. Even if it's only just a bit.
Jotaro's too cool to be a Mary Sue. He's a Star Sue.
This is an amazing video! I use a lot of your videos for advice in my writing and one of my biggest fears is making a Mary Sue/Gary Stu so your input is really helpful
most recent almost mary su I can think of is in "Bad Guys" the fox mayor. legendary super thief. always right. never challenged. she kind of skirts that line, but as she's not the main character and is more a tool used to challenge the wolf's perspective I think she kind of gets a pass? like she is but not in too bad a way? not sure. would love some other opinions.
She at least has the justification of being a more seasoned thief compared to the Bad Guys, and she also makes mistakes during the climax. And most of all, she doesn't hog the spotlight everytime she's onscreen.
Nov 2022: Nemona is female Goku
Jan 2023: Nemona is Hisoka!!!
You could easily find a Gary stu in one of those harem anime where the protagonist is op. There's so many of those
Pick your average wish fulfillement isekai where the hero gets an overpowered skill and a harem
90% chances he's a Gary Stu
Jojo main characters are fun because you know they’re gonna win, you just don’t know HOW they’re gonna win. Glad im subbed
Man even I felt the pressure of namonas battle spirit and that's saying something and I love battling But it's really cool to have character who represents the eximent of battle like we all have bit dang I wanted to see her real team
For the Lightning segment, I get the complaints about her dangerously veering into Mary Sue territory, and from a certain point of view, it's true, mostly due to Motomu Toriyama, the games' director, who got way too attached to her, to the point of showing blatant favoritism for her in other games he made (the main character from Mobius Final Fantasy basically faboying over her after just meeting her being an example).
HOWEVER. I would argue that, in her own story, she's still not really a Mary Sue. I admit I might be biased here, since I'm one of those strange beasts who actually like Lightning and the FFXIII series, but here's my two cents anyway. The problem with most Mary Sue characters is not that they are simply flawless, but that even if they have flaws or struggles, the universe around them tends to ignore them, and they don't suffer any consequences if they ever make mistakes. This doesn't apply to Lightning, in my opinion: the entire plot of XIII-2 and Lightning Returns is kickstarted by her insecurities and self loathing for inadvertently causing the events of the previous games. I like to see Lightning as a deconstruction of the "strong female character" archetype, in that her stoicism is treated as a huge flaw that leads her to push away others, and the fact that she still cares about them causes problems that bring her and others more suffering and lead her to repress her emotions even more. By the third game, which to be fair was plagued by a horrible translation, she has completely bottled herself up and her repressed emotions manifest as Lumina, and only by accepting her faults and flaws Persona 4 style she is able to get over herself. Not to mention most of the other main characters hate her now for one reason or another, and she has to gain back their trust, sometimes by opening up to them. Sure, she's strong and all, but for a Final Fantasy character that's almost a requirement: it's no different from other FF characters that got new powers from the crystals or gods, including her own companions.
TL;DR, Lightning can have some Mary Sue traits, but I see her more as a deconstruction of one at best, similarly to how I see Anakin Skywalker as a deconstruction of one. The FFXIII series has its problems, but Mary Sue isn't one of them.
26:22 Don’t forget the Cuphead show. Man, there’s a lot of breaking the game to movie curse in recent years. Which is obviously a good thing
Just as you stand by your point abouts Korra, I still stand by mines that most of what you've said about her has been flat out wrong.
Character development is definitely present in her character. She's not the same person at the end of Book 4 like she is in the beginning of book 1. Period.
Korra is mainly disliked for not being Aang. Too many Avatar fans went into TLoK with nostalgia bias. Her personality traits (while definitely another reason some people hate her) are not only justified given her background, but are more or less the same traits Zuko had in the earlier books of Avatar.
Also, if your gonna call Korra out for her only ass-pull of unlocking the Avatar state at the end of book 1 (which if you know the production behind this show, makes this a very cheap example to use), then the same should apply to Aang for discovering energy bending.
Overall, its not my place to say weather you should like Korra or not, but objectivly speaking, she has no reason to be mentioned as much in this video as she is, even as a none example.
Agreed, people who act like Korra doesn’t have any development clearly didn’t get past season 1. Which I can get if they didn’t like the show, but you can’t just judge one aspect of a character without looking at them as a whole.
I always break it down to TWO type of Mary sue definitions:
-lack of develop character who the universe/plot hands them everything without actually earning it and never have real threats no matter what the plot says. They may even retcon or go against the rules or lore of a universe.
-a character who can't be criticized in-game [and in a Meta sense out of game by the fanatics of the character] by anyone, else that person is portrayed in game as wrong, evil, bad, a jerk and is sometimes killed off or force to admit marry-sue is right.
While I do agree it has been watered down to much like the word dragon, I still feel like it can have at least one more use outside of the one prescribed to it.
The fact that you had to re-upload this video, that I found hilarious when it first came out, was just proof positive that Disney and the entire establishment was protecting their sacred cows.
Out of curiosity, has anyone noticed that there are a lot of overlap between Mary sues and the paragon archetype. That is, starting with a moral compass/ideal personality that does not waver or change, admiration from other characters due to their strength or personality, and depending on the story being a deus ex machina when the protagonist is in trouble.
Of course, the paragon tends to take a secondary role more often than Mary sues, and if too strong, is often killed early.
Characters such as Obi-wan, Goku, Captain America.
This is not to say that these characters are necessarily bad, just something I noticed.
MAAAH-RAAAY SUUUUUUEEE.
"Yare Yare Daze."
"Do You Understand?"
Nearly chocked on my food when you said even a Ham Sandwich can beat Geeta, has to be my most favorite comparison I´ve ever heard x)
At this point you’re running out of ideas for your Mary Sue train
While i don’t completely hate him, leon feels like a gary stu. Where from what we see of him, it’s just raw power, no strategy. And everyone keeps raving on how he’s the undefeated champion with his super epic powerful charizard. and yeah he did train under a previous champion(mustard) to get to this point but that doesn’t really make him less of a gary stu. Although he did technically failed to defeat/catch eternatus so i guess that does make him less of one.
The thing that differs nemona is because it probaly awakened something on a lot, and i mean A LOT, of pokemon children.
Aizen, I only lost because I wanted to lose, is a Mary Sue. His power is completely unexplained in story. He isn't descended from a great bloodline, he wasn't the son of the soul king, and he wasn't an amalgamation of other races. he was just born with natural power above almost everybody and had the MOST Powerful ability in bleach as a Shiki. The story revolves arounds Aizen's plans to an extent that the setting warps around him. He is an intimidating but poorly written character whose power invalidates the existence of most of his subordinates. As a general rule a leader on an organization should not be able to destroy all of his subordinates at the same time with ease as it makes the subordinates feel useless.
Sad how when he said Mary Sue I IMMEDIATELY thought of Rey 😒
28:28 Entei, Professor Layton and Ai from Animal Crossing: The Movie should be there too.
I mean the Animal Crossing: The Movie was mid but only because it was an Animal Crossing movie, there's not likely a good way to properly adapt the source material and not make a mid movie.
8:00 NO!
How dare you!
Jotaro then punched the crazy woman with his fist.
Mary Sue I've noticed for media in general has been hijacked and watered down by people who mainly just have a conscious or unconscious bias toward female protags actually being useful or somewhat independent lol
Most recent I've seen is calling Freya from GoW Ragnarok a Mary Sue which is simply nonsensical if you actually know what the term means and play the game lol
Feel like a lot of words like that have been watered down to mean nothing over the past few years really
Rarely if ever see much use of the term Gary Stu. Usually just gets wrapped up into plot armor.
Yeah, it bothers me a little to say "Mary Sue isn't sexist because we have Gary Stu and people use it". YEAH, you can find people calling characters Gary Stus but it isn't nearly as widespread. The average person probably doesn't KNOW Gary Stu is a term, but I'd bet money most people have at least heard the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument if they so much as dip their toes near SW fandom. It's so big, as shown in this video, that the actress had to comment on it. When have you seen a male actor comment on whether their character is a Gary Stu? I can't think of any.
In addition, in my experience with people calling characters Gary Stus, it exists MOSTLY to point out the hypocrisy of many people who call out "Mary Sue" at any remotely competent female character. Male wish fulfilment exists in COUNTLESS renditions of amazing and perfect action protagonists, but the second that character exists in a female body...
I'm not sure what basis anyone could possibly have to call Freya a Mary Sue but if they're uneducated enough to make that claim, I doubt anyone could change their mind at this point.
I love how you disproved the one video at the start of the JoJo bit by showing moments where it shows they're more than that. Also the slowdown on "funny cowards" as the shot of Narancia having CUT OFF HIS OWN TOUNGE is great.
I personally call male mary sues “gory soup”s. I misheard the term gary stu once and I just can’t unhear gory soup.
Starting the video with “VS sayu” is such a power move, loved playing NSR with my cousin
I did not know mary sue came from a star terk fanfic
If you ever want to bleed out of your eyes, give that partikular story a read. Its so much worse than you could imagine.
@daydreamer2257 No, thank you. I'm good
The difference between a Mary Sue and an overpowered character is that the entire story revolves around a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Characters that seem to bend the tone of the story itself and are out of place are Mary Sues. A character can be overpowered and even well-liked without being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Nemona's weakness is an inability to care about Arvin losing his parents in any way shape or form and instead focusing on how cool the funni dragon is.
**Defending Jotaro:**
1) Every human is flawless, Jotaro is as weak as a human and could be killed in any given scenario - yes even being turned into a child.
2) Self Insert - he has no similarities to the author but if your argument is that the author chose to make a character like this - then every fictional character is
3) So angels willing kill now?
True same with Giorno yes he is pretty much Jesus but he isn’t a mary sue. He has been put out of commission like with Notorious BIG and almost died against Bruno, it’s obvious the only Jojo character that’s even close to being a self insert is Rohan though that’s still debatable, and for the Jesus thing he seems to be there to help others improve themselves.
@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane Hell, if he didn't smart it up, Giorno would have died to Baby Face.
@@TheManWhoErasedHisNane Araki said Rohan isn't a self insert. They aren't similar at all except they both draw mangas.
goku is a gary stu because everything still worships him despite his flaws
8:22 NO! ROHAN IS NOT ARAKIS SELF INSERT, he stated in an interview that rohan is not similar to him, the only thing they have in common is that theyre both mangakas
What asshats said that Nemona was a Mary Sue?! She's not! She's battle crazy and you saying she's like Goku made me chuckle. I like her as a character and she's by far the "friendly" rival that constantly challenges the player. Even in the Champion vs Champion battle, praises the player for the win (I was hoping she'd give them a big hug with her usual enthusiasm). Then she immediately gets excited for a round two of their battle with different Pokémon teams, causing Clavel and Geeta to face-palm? 😆 Never change, Nemona.
As someone who is not a fan of Nemona, being a sue wasn't my problem at least (heck the main character has always been a sue, so the idea of the rival being one didn't cross my mind). It was mostly the writing actively undermining itself (I know Pokemon is not great writing, but it's usually not backpedaling on itself, besides USUM, but at least it wasn't in the same game).
She's set up as the "looking for a worthy rival" type, that she wants to fight you at your best. But she also undermines chances to fight your best, and tries to fight you immediately after other major battles multiple times. Other characters have to step in so you can get a heal and be "at your best". Once could be just her eagerness, but doing it repeatedly just makes it look like she's waiting for the right time to strike when you're weak. She even does exactly this and battles you when you're entering a gym, while you're likely set up for that gym's type specialty. Meanwhile earlier she specifically runs from a battle when you accidentally meet her and her team wasn't ready. It's a case of her actions undermining the character idea.
It was also pretty strange with the power level ouroboros they tried to pull between her and Geeta: waffling back and forth the whole game of who's built up as Paldea's strongest before finally landing on Nemona....and then the post game makes a higher leveled Geeta it's last boss despite her never holding back, and then an even higher level Nemona is available in the tourney.....it's a mess!
What's even stranger is calling her current team her full power, implying it's stronger than whatever she used the previous year. Her team develops like a generic rival team adding on members found along the way, instead of subbing out some weaker links between battles. It's implied she does this in dialogue, but she doesn't do an N where the team varies between battles; even Hop was shown trying out new teams even if he kept the starter throughout, it wouldn't have been a new idea. The game tells us she has a variety to work with, but never shows. It'd be like if Blue was still using his Raticate in the final battle despite saying he assembled only the strongest Pokemon species he found.
I also wasn't warmed when her first battle had her trying to send in her freshly KO'd starter back into battle before Clavell stopped her, not an action an experienced trainer should be trying.
10:10 Also when he Star Platinum catches The Lovers they use a slow-mo effect that may also be a hint of it
22:12 that battle tendency joke got me way more than it should have
Shout out for having NSR as a clip. Really loved Saya. Great video as always! And Yare Yare Daze! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
I don't like the term Mary Sue because it draws people's attention towards the character instead of the writing.
Bad characters doesn't exist. You just have to write the story around them to make them good.
Ngl I wasn't expecting that Spoony reference, props for that. I can appreciate it.
Character-wise Korra is not a Mary Sue, but I would argue the writers treat her as if she is. She breaks the established rules of her own world and she never has to work for any of the powers previous Avatars had to earn.
She is able to bend 3 elements as a child, pulls Airbending out of nowhere despite having her Chi paths blocked off (and she never got anywhere in training it), so it feels unearned. Aang comes back from the dead to give Korra back her Bending AND he throws in mastery of the Avatar State as a bonus. Something it took him 2/3rds of his original story to be able to use on command (and at great personal cost). Korra just has it handed to her.
That's all just in Book 1.
@@shizachan8421 I have to disagree because we see in A:LTA that many Avatars begin their journeys as adults, and they still needed to go on said journeys to master the elements. Aang beginning his so young was the exception to the rule.
It's also not just about the powers, but learning the philosophies, mindsets and attitudes of their teachers. Aang struggled with Earthbending because the philosophy and mindset needed to Earthbend goes completely against his Airbender upbringing and beliefs. The Avatar needs to learn about the cultures and peoples of their world to gain sympathy for them and understand how to adopt and honour their techniques, beliefs and ways of thinking.
Korra did none of that, she had 3 of the elements handed to her in childhood (including Firebending, the one she should struggle the most with) and pulled off Airbending when it was most convenient for the climax. No other Avatar in history was able to do that, Wan only did because he actually went out of his way to be given the powers.
@@shizachan8421 Except we never saw an Avatar go on a journey to learn Airbending. Aang basically had to speedrun his training, and the people Korra could have been taught by would be very different from those who taught Aang. The circumstances, the training, and the experiences of each Avatar are unique.
Korra would have struggled with Firebending where it came quite easily to Aang, seeing her overcome that hurdle could have been satisfying. Conversely she likely would have breezed through Earthbending because she is so stubborn and brash.
Skipping important parts of the character journey because you cannot think of a way to make them unique is called "being lazy". You cannot set up a system your fictional world goes by, only to break it because it's inconvenient to you.
Limitations breed creativity. Korra had no limitations on her Bending, so there was no creativity in her learning them. You are arguing for lazy writing and broken worldbuilding. Aang was shaped by his experiences, for the longest time he refused to Firebend because he hurt Katara by accident.
Korra didn't learn shit.
Being able to bend 3 elements doesn't make her a Mary Sue, because she still took 13 years to master them. And we literally spent the entire first season watching Korra adapting to the airbender mindset, movesets and strengthening her spiritual connection gradually. She got airbending because the loss of her other elements took away her attachment to them. And Aang didn't come back from the dead. The first series already showed that the past lives leave an imprint of themselves for the next Avatar to interact with.
@@vetarlittorf1807 We've never seen or had it implied that an Avatar could Bend 3 of the 4 Elements as a child until Korra.
Being a Waterbender she still shows she can Firebend without difficulty despite it being established that past Avatars (Aang included) struggle with their opposite element.
But Korra can Firebend just as well as she can Waterbend, perhaps even better because it suits her aggressive personality.
@@PlanetZoidstar You're basing that off only two other Avatars out of possibly hundreds. And being a waterbender does not inherently make firebending difficult. It's about personality, not nationality. And while the environment of each nation can be a factor in shaping one's mentality, it's not what defines them. That's like saying every single German is a punctual hard-worker. Aang found earthbending difficult because he was passive. Roku had trouble with waterbending because he was uncompromising. And Korra had trouble with airbending because she was confrontational.
4:45 The problem is lack of consequences. Even tho when she mess up other people have to pay for it, or she just swift her fault to other person and when she pay for something like loosing her connections with the others avatar she get it restored without effort, Aang just snap his fingers and all of her problems are gone.
I think the best term I heard for a Marry/Garry Stu is someone who breaks the Universe around them for their benefit.
Example: Rey from Rise of Skywalker. Gets force powers depending on what the story needs. Gains flight for a scene, near instant healing, lightning, teleporting stuff. Has random knowledge because the story needs it (recently read the one part on Sith holocrons). Is about to lose till Leia distracts Kylo. All this because the story needs it.
Male example to be fair. Midadorian from MHA. One for all suddenly giving powers out of nowhere. This IS a lighter example as at the least he doesn't gain full control, and he needs to train to use it better. Still, that is a Gary Stu moment of the universe bending to what he needs.
Now, is this perfect? No, not by a long shot. But I think it hits on one of the more damaging parts of this type of character: the universe bends and breaks to their will, and that bends and breaks the whole story for their needs.
I would use Kirito from SAO as an example for a male Gary Stu
@@eduardopantoja9115 never seen it, but from what I’ve heard I can believe it. Still, didn’t want to list someone without having seen it myself.
Basically my pet peeve with Midoria.
"Oh, it's about to be a story of how someone without powers can become a hero, through hard work and det-"
"Hey kid, eat this hair. It will give you supapowers."
Besides, it's not like it's impossible for quirkless people to be strong. Aizawa is basically quirkless, since his quirk is erasing other quirks. And multiple times he is forced to handle an enemy with a quirk while supressing another, essentially turning it into a quirk vs quirkless matchup.
Same thing with Stain. My man's was one of the most menacing villains, took the collective effort of the three best students of the current generation. And, until he can make someone bleed, he is essentially quirkless as well.
And Spoilers:
And then the manga decided "oh, just one power? Not protagonist enough. Here are 6 more quirks for your troubles."
@@CommentPositionInformer I'm gonna disagree on some of these points. The show quickly became about the lead needing to learn to control his powers and continue with hero training so it's not really a bait and switch (End of episode 2 when he gets told it's possible if I remember).
As for Aizawa and Stain, to call them "Quickless" is a MASSIVE disservice to them both. Aizawa in particular is a HUGELY powerful quirk. Erasing other's Quirks is key to his fighting style, as the main time I remember him fighting people without it, he's facing a bunch of lower levels who don't know who he's looking at and whose disabled, meaning you don't know if he's taken your weapon or not. His sash is also powerful, but I don't think it alone makes him a truly serious threat.
And then there's Stain. A man who knew his limitations and used them to his best. He ambushed, he hit quick, he was skilled enough to get the one light hit he needed to win. Without his quirk he would have lost, and was only stopped because he faced constant new foes to fight who stopped him from finishing the job. But when they start teaming up on him, he starts losing. And remember, they are still not even done with 1 semester yet, they are still new to this!
Overall while the show does show that Quirkless people can do well with skill, it also shows that without those quirks, you are simply outmatched by so many of the larger threats. That's why Aizawa is so powerful, why Stain needed to keep odds in his favor with attacking in shadows and away from large teams. The universe never shows Quirkless being true threats without majorly tipping the scales.
Will agree on that last point though, that's the point they start making the man a true Gary Stu.
@@wesleyfravel5149 Exactly. It's not a big deal or anything, that's why I called it s pet peeve.
And I'm not saying that Aizawa's and Stains' quirks don't matter. It's just that it doesn't make them stronger, or faster, or durable. Doesn't make attacks less lethal, or their own attacks stronger.
Aizawa is a regular human, with the power to make other people regular humans. And Stain is very effective once he pulls his quirk off, he is just a regular human until them. These are weaknesses they had to learn to work around, which would be the perfect path for Midorya to take imo.
That last point does suck. All Might defeated All For One with one quirk. Why the hell can't Midorya defeat Shigaraki the same way?
Id say the defining quality for Mary Sues is that regardless of how they actually conduct themselves, they get rewarded as if they did the right thing.
If a character doesn't work but reaps the rewards as if they did, is loved by other characters despite their personality and behavior not warranting such a response, etc, yeah that's a Mary Sue.
The cutoff is less important than the mechanism. Every additional 'freebie' you give a character, the harder you strain the suspension of disbelief. It's only to be used sparingly as a way to avoid even bigger problems. The reason we loathe the Mary Sue, I think, is because nobody would accidentally end up with that many slip ups around one character. It implies intent, usually an egotistical self validation.
To be fair i think the definition of mary sue has to be extended, at least for male characters because at some point in the early 2000s and late 90s, especially in japanese media writers of popular stories became really good at writing mary sues/gary stus who flew barely under the radar and not only get people to like them but get people to not recognize them as mary sues, unless they are cool and good looking in which case they are. That's literally the only distinction.
The trick is to make the character super sympathetic and/or go through hardship, make them cool but not in certain ways. Like being good with women is a no-no. In a sense what im trying to say is that you just make them easy to self insert to for basement dwellers. And the popular shonen protags have always been good at that. If they're not rich or handsome and they aren't the messiah from the beginning then its fine to make them the messiah after a bit of training and almost dying a bunch.
The other technique is to skirt the line of making them the ultimate guy, but not cross it. So making them good with women is bad, but having tons of women in the series into them is fine, as long as there isn't a good reason as to why they are interested e.g. handsome, tries to seduce them, etc. Getting physically or mentally damaged entitles you to pussy.
Kirito is an example of a MC where the author had no idea how to do this. Harem protags too. Shonen writers are aware that they don't actually have to give the MC a harem they can just make them a self insert target for losers and then let the fanfic writers and artists do the rest. Even harem protags often aren't pursuing the women that are into them. They just accidentally fall and pull down their pants. It seems like its a japanese thing that actually trying to get a girlfriend (or boyfriend) and actively make moves to find a significant other are bad. And since anime has become way more popular over the last decade those values have trickled into western society for all people who aren't chads.
I'm not saying this out of hatred for shonen protagonists. it's something i've noticed over the last 2 decades. A character i really like is ichigo kurosaki from bleach. He would be a mary sue if the author actually cared about him at all. But he doesn't and he explicitly said as much so that saves him. He has a frankly shoddy win/loss ratio compared to most other MCs. There are huge stretches of the story where he is completely absent and his fights are like half the length of side character fights sometimes. And he got offscreened by a side villain even after getting his final power up, then doesn't put up any sort of resistance against the final villain. At the end of the series after saving the multiverse he has a normal job as a translator, a normal house, one kid. He's not some king or god or even a celebrity. Whatever people's opinions on the series are he just can't be a mary sue the author doesn't like him nearly enough for that. Every MC gets one or two bullshit powerups.
And yet he was always singled out as a mary sue above his peers. And the reason its like that for characters like him or sasuke uchiha is because they are less relatable to most anime fans. Too cool or something idk.
Honestly, I disagree about Lightning from FF XIII. Not about what you said about her in the first game, but for the sequels. I'm not defending them, as I believe they get worse with each game, but even with the sequels, I don't see her becoming a Mary Sue.
In XIII-2, she's absent for almost the entire story, which is what causes her sisters adventure to go looking for her in the first place. Also, Lightning isn't written as perfect here, because the power up she gets from becoming the chosen one still isn't enough for her to overcome that game's villain, because she loses that fight. Her characterization here wasn't great, but she also doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue here IMO, because she isn't perfect. She gets a power up by literally being removed from her own place in history, then she's absent for most of the game, then the game ends with her being beaten off-screen and she's implied to be killed by the villain, at least that's what he claims.
As for Lightning Returns, there's a stronger case there, but I still don't think she's written as perfect, but she is written poorly and has most of her character progression from the first game is completely erased until the end of the game. The reason for this is because she does have flaws here, or at least one very specific flaw: she's literally had her emotions suppressed by the villain of the game, a god of creation that saved her after the past game because it wants to use her as a tool to erase and recreate the world according to it's ideal, and she goes along with it for most of the game because of the way that God has screwed with her head. Altough her suddenly being able to fight was thna bunch of new weapons is definitely a Mary Sue quality. It's not a good story, and it's poorly written, but she doesn't come across as flawless. I think they just did a really bad job of telling her story. Gameplay wise though, she does come across as a Mary Sue.
@@eddieboston6540 I could've sworn she uses various types of swords and spears that were pretty different from what she originally had, and using something like a buster sword is wildly different from wielding a saber, because it requires different training to wield proficiently. But admittedly, I might be misremembering that. It's been a while, so I remember the plot of the game much more than the combat since the story stuck out a bit more despite it being the simplest in the trilogy. Although I still do think that her basically becoming a one woman party does come across as kinda mary-sue-ish, even if I still maintain that she isn't one, even in the third game.
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince
The problem with the gameplay and multiple weapons aspect is that this applies to pretty much any protagonist from any Final Fantasy that uses the job system: thanks to the crystals' blessing, the characters are immediately able to fight with anything. Are they overpowered or Mary Sues because of that? In my opinion, no. If anything, the fact that Lightning is the only character you can control lessens the Mary Sue factor, because you don't have other fighters that would be rendered useless by her versatility.
Even the one-man army aspect is not Mary Sue-ish enough to me, especially because it doesn't apply all that much in story: the final battle is won when the other characters arrive.
i has an idea on how to make a mary sue a belivable thing, the actual, original, 12 year old girl being captain of a ship, i mean
....the rest of the crew die...either to a plague, infighting, enemy troops, maybe she's the only one to wake up from cryo sleep on the whole ship due to a malfuntion
Honestly I have been seeing the terms Mary and Gary Stu, being overused nowadays and no longer valid. Like most recently I was watching two videos from Synthetic Man about God Of War. One was reviewing the game itself and the other was a ranking video of 2022 games, what bothered me is that he called Freya a Mary Stu. All because of her almost besting Kratos in her boss fight, even though he was simplh caught of guard cause he didn't know it was Freya. Second there was a line of FRIENDLY BANTER. "You know I could have beat you know? If Atreus wasn't there.", that apparently labeled Freya as a Mary Stu.
Also on a unrelated note, he called the game woke cause of adding black people in Norse Mythology. Even though GOW games aren't trying to be accurate with their Mythology, and because they added a gay couple in it. Even THOUGH it was a side quest and the other devs were paying respect to them, like he claims it's a agenda..the only agenda they have is PAYING respect for their dead devs.
Calling Freya a Mary Sue is very ridiculous when the only reason she came close to killing Kratos is because he wasn’t willing to hurt her due to considering her a friend, while she was driven by vengeance and bloodlust for him killing Balder. And her arc is in learning to let go of her revenge and move past it in order to fight a bigger enemy, that being Odin, and it’s great to see how her and Kratos’s relationship evolve throughout the course of the game. Especially when Kratos tells her how he knows the pain of her loss due to losing his own daughter.
I’m not even touching on the other stuff though since they seem like one of *those* people. AKA ones who call any media that dares to have minorities in them as political/woke…just because they happen to be minorities. Besides, this’s the same game that has talking squirrel and a talking disembodied head on your hip throughout the majority of the game, and yet a black giant is the straw that breaks the camel’s back? Really????
I think the most Mary Sue moment Jotaro had was was when he suckerpunched Alessy as a child.
The Waffle House has found its new host.
The waffle house has found its new host
The Waffle House has found its new host.
"Yara Yara Daze" I am frankly enjoying the video so far, so a good video in my books for sure. Also, yes, talking about Mary Sue's but ends up talking about a male character first instead. "Ironic,"
Excellent work as usual Kamen. Stay awesome.
Nemona's battle hungry nature could be her way of connecting with people. Her parents aren't really around, and she doesn't seem to have very many friends. Battling allows her to interact with people up until she becomes so strong that people start staying away. At that point, battling becomes a bit lackluster for her until she meets you, an up and coming trainer with the potential to take the Pokemon league. From there she starts to nurture you into the perfect rival, which also eventually makes her your friend.
I've heard, well read, a few star trek fans saying that a male Mary Sue would be called a Weasley Crusher.
I personally love Lung Disease. best rival in Pokémon.
Getting new powers out of nowhere to win a fight they can’t win feels unrealistic.
Yare yare daze, do you understand
That no straight roads music in the background, love it! Good game wish it got more spotlight though.
I was more surprised by the SAYU theme at the start than by anything else in this video -_-
James Heller from Prototype 2 is a total Mary Sue (or Gary Stue). He's made to replace the original MC Alex Mercer (who is so much cooler) and everything about hi feels like it was written just to show how much cooler he is than Alex (which he's not) he's always spouting edgy humor (which tbh I actually really like) and for some reason Alex can't consume James, which is never explained.
Giiiirrrrrlllll, that image from the game of Josuke laying on his bed behind bars... they knew what they were doing
I haven’t watched the vid yet but going into this i think Mary sue’s aren’t necessarily bad, some can be good depending on how much of a sue they are
I feel like Rex from Xeno 2 was recognized by the writers in the story to be a Gary Stu and had to knock him down a peg. Rex is a blank slate of a man who literally dies but gets resurrected by the world's most powerful sword and person combo in his word, Pyra. You're expected to beat every battle the game throws at you with no exceptions but there are several battles where you will drain the enemies health bar to half or 0 and it will trigger a cutscene where Rex is getting his shit kicked in and looking like he contributed no ass kicking in the fight and when the cutscene starts right when your anime protag is having you immersed in the world like your him it gets really unsatisfying. I got pretty far into the game and I want to make this as spoiler free as I can, but Rex and Co needs to fight the most Jojo looking character in all of Xeno 2 and he pretty much soloed my team for a couple of hours. Eventually, I beat him, and it triggers a cutscene where he almost knocks out Rex, but another character literally makes him explode, giving little satisfaction in not "beating" him. Not 10 minutes later, you're asked to beat up the same dude who looks pretty whole for someone who should be everywhere rn and beat him while not only he gained 3 levels from two steps to the left ago but you need to beat his friend too who had a higher level. Literally even in that fight you lose to the duo once you have one of their health bars reach half until a power is discovered within your team that solos them without your party members.