Would love to see Reynor take a second shot at GSL. It’s definitely a different style of tournament, and I’m sure the way he went out his first time was a humbling yet motivating experience.
if you give Korean players 1 week to prepare for only 1 opponent then they can beat even Serral, and that is exactly what happened in GSL, every round is 1 week apart from another, unlike most western tournaments where the entire tournament happens in 4 days and you have to play 10 different opponents in 1 weekend. This is partially why Koreans do well in long tournaments like World team league and struggle in short tournaments like every other international tournament. They are just too used to the GSL format where preparation is key, while western players are used to playing multiple opponents in just 2 3 days. Still i do think if Serral plays GSL he has a big chance of winning, the only thing that can stop him is maybe he is not used to living in Korea which affect his health or something, but hey, GSL only give 3000 USD for winning so no point in trying anymore.
@@teddanville6996 Kind of fair, Serral is also one of the best prep players in the world so it barely plays to his disadvantage. But I do agree the chances of a player beating him are probably slightly higher with prep time. But its not like he's never had to play Koreans after a week of prep I mean masters coliseum was not a one weekend event where serral did still destroy korean players (Solar and Maru 3-0 and Hero 5-1 hero should've got another map but threw it. This was in playoffs a week after the Swiss bracket in which Maru actually beat serral 2-0 and Solar lost 1-2 admittedly Serral was a bit off but it does show a longer format benefitting Serral as when he played them a week later it was pretty one sided excluding Maru's mech game it was dominant). So I do agree with your statement but it doesn't really apply to Serral since one of the bigger tests of a long winded tournament like gsl is consistency and Serral is if not the most flashy player but is 100% the most consistent player. Since 2018 he's only placed outside of top 8 3 times. But once again I do somewhat agree I just do not believe it would make a large difference probably at most a high single digit percent increase in win chance vs serral.
Surprised no one's commented on this yet. Loved the interview! And great to see Reynor talking about his history with the game as well as his possible future plans.
While not in the talks for GOAT, I really love watching Reynor, Dark, Byun etc. because everything can happen. With Serral it's more like watching a really advanced computer playing. Either you overcome his programming with variables or it ends as predicted.
Fully agree with his comment on the cyclone not needing a rework compared to units like the BC and Swarm Host, especially when we were already seeing a little battlemech after the previous patch.
Beware... wall of text incoming. About this GOAT debate: - There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved. - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs Koreans in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023). - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins; achieved 2 times) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans - which no one else ever achieved - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other player being Maru with 78% in 2023 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with Korean Participation (18) and overall (23) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved Here are these player’s records against these top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws): vs Maru: 12:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:7:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer. That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates. To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He definitely is the SC GOAT though. To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira.. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance. Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 23 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 18 are with Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players. To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL. So what? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent. Plus Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (Worlds and other events) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Share stats, if you disagree.
Just saying “so what” is pretty fucking stupid. It is a big deal he didn’t go to Korea and compete for months and grind out major tournament wins instead of a weekend in Europe. Koreans going to Europe would be like him going to Korea and he couldn’t do it. He didn’t have the courage or fortitude to achieve the biggest wins and that will always be a knock against him
@@adamwallace7638 That is why I gave reasons as to why "so what" is the appropriate answer to this Korean centrist view. And no, it is not the same as Koreans going to Europe as you yourself wrote in your post. The tournaments Koreans won in Europe were all weekend tournaments and Serral won 66% of those weekend tournaments on Korean soil he attempted to win. The problem with GSL is that it gives less money, and s basically - because of its unnecessarily long format - telling foreigners to stay out for several reasons. Why unnecessarily? Just look at the GSL that is being held right now: Why are the groups played one week after another? There is no reason for it. You could easily have the first match of each group be played out in 2 days, give the players one week to prepare for the next match and you'd have a probably 4 week tournaments instead of one that spans several months. Why such formats in general are extremely favorable for players of the country: 1. You have to stay for months in a different country which, even if you win, isn't really worth the cost as you need flights, accommodation and that not only for yourself but also for training partners. 2. You have to get accustomed to a completely different lifestyle. 3. You are away from friends, family and your normal activities to relax. All the above reasons explain why people who work abroad get paid insane amounts of money by their companies. But in SC2 you'd not only win less prize money, you'd also have to pay for your own flights, accommodation on top of your flat at home as you only stay for a couple of months and moving out is not worth it. Thus, there never was - nor is right now - a financial incentive. And prize money is how these guys earn their living. So why in the world would you pay thousands of dollars to perhaps not even win, but even if you win you'd live a life you don't want AND on top earn less that if you stayed in your usual environment? It makes no sense at all. And you are wrong. Serral achieved the biggest wins... he is a 2 time world champion (3, if they hadn't moved the title from IEM 2024 to Saudi Arabia), the highest pinnacle where the best of the world gather. There is also no player who won IEM or the World Championship more often than Serral. Maru for example failed at doing so, despite trying several times. Serral is the best strategic player on the planet as he has shown several times, so a format that has such long preparation time would - if anything - be a favor to him. The reason, why no other tournament is held in the format of GSL is because there is no dense enough player base anywhere else in the world and no sane person would live abroad for several months for the cost that is involved relative to the take away you might not even get. Ask yourself why such a format exists only in Korea... then you have the answer why so few foreigners try to compete in the GSL. Thus, the argumentation of GSL is simply a last straw that Korean elitists have to deny Serral his greatness.
@@marcelbenner993You can’t just hand wave and say “Serral is the best strategic player and a long form tournament would favor him.” (Called a prep tournament by Artosis) Serral’s results are amazing, and his record everywhere he has competed is amazing. That being said, you can’t equate overall records against players to winning a long form tournament where your opponent gets weeks to prepare SPECIFICALLY for you. Throughout the history of StarCraft and StarCraft 2, these prep tournaments are the most prestigious and bring out the best competition. So Serral will always have an easy argument against him until he wins a prep tournament. This is why I love Reynor, because in this exact video you can see he cares about this sort of tournament and building a case for his legacy. The fact that the competitive spirit of Serral has not lead him to want to walk into Korea and take the GSL away is a knock against him. He could and should have been the first foreign GSL winner, why doesn’t he? That’s the million dollar question and that’s the question on his legacy.
Reynor said exactly what I've been saying from watching TvP: Terran just has a million options. Protoss has a few, and they have to be perfect scouting, and even then, there's some gambling.
I think if we give the Protos the range that the immortals had back in the day, and give the Archons at level 2 three times the defensive stats. I know that is massive. In TvZ the Zerg has too many tools. Vipers and infesters have clearly been the most powerful units since the beginning. But, I agree with what you are saying about Zerg, when ever you have a balance patch, and you see a unit disappear, like the brood lord, or the swarm hosts, I see this as very bad for the game. I am for the balance, but against the units disappearing from the pool of effective strats. Also it has to be acknowledged protos since the beginning has had the words of the patches. What ever you enjoy. Such a good attitude. Thats fantastic:) great attitude....
currently, it is Serral. Rogue may contend that once he returns...but the dark horse in the coming decade is MaxPax. I just saw MaxPax play Serral and dumpster on him in the late late game (which no one else can do).
Serral has figured out the most efficient way to play the game against Terran, in the early game. From base 1-5 Serral has figured out how to be the most greedy. And if you don't get to his drone line, he ends up with too much momentum, and he goes on to win the match. The problem is that Maru was not able to adapt to his game style in enough time. Cos, Serral players in a way, that no one else can play. And so Maru has not had enough exposure to that. So it stands to reason that Serral would win in the beginning. Also, the way that Maru plays the matchup, is nothing like Clem. And to beat Serral, you need that game style in your arsenal, otherwise he gets too comfortable in the matchup. Also, the game before can set the person up to win the next game, cos you then have to take the fact that they have more strategies to win into account, and this has an effect on openings. I don't think that it is that Serral is that much better. I think that its cos Maru just has not played enough games against him. I know this sounds weird. But you have to add the way Clem players to your arsenal. And also again this is the weird part, you have to begin to proxy the Zerg. Ok, I know that sounds like I don't play the game, and I don't cos of a medical condition. But, the ides is not for it not to be scouted, the idea is that the Zerg then has to build zerglings at the beginning of the game instead of drones to do it. And then any zergling, or offensive unti you can make them build in the first three minutes of the game, then has a massive knock-on effect, limiting their snowball potential. I also think you need as a Terran to add Reaper and Hellion flooding into your strat, and tie this into a regular proxy strat against the zerg. Cos the way Seral plays, he is too comfortable in the beginning of the game. You need to take that away from him. And then he has to take in the fact that you have that strat into account in the next games that you play. Any Reaper hellion flood, needs should be backed up with banchee or BC, cos they are excellent defensive units in the early game. And the BC goes on to be an excellent defensive unit for the rest of the game.
Hello, this interview is awesome. Could you please allow me to reprint this video to Chinese bilibili video website. I will attached the link of original materials. If you mind what i did, please tell me.❤
Reynor is so wrong about the late game balance vs terran. It would be unfair that in the late game terran is stronger if zerg's economy wasn't better. Since zerg is a swarmy faction with the best economy and the best scouting and the most flexible, that NEEDS to be compensated with a stronger army and more efficient like terran o protoss should have vs them. So it is normal that zerg needs to take an extra base if they can't break terran in the mid game. But players like Serral show that terran is not OP vs zerg. He just not playing as good as Serral doesn't mean that the game is not balanced.
Serral is an anomaly though, what he's saying is right that Zerg need way more resources because trade much more efficiently. Also all of Zergs main late game units have been heavily nerfed and with broods especially it really shows. Also it's Reynor I think he knows way better than us. Also when you look statistically Serral is the except to the rule...Zergs are struggling these days and only Serral has a fantastic record. These are statistics looking at matchup win rates and player winrates since the last patch.
No he is not wrong. Players like Serral? PLAYER like Serral, singular as in only one person in the whole world seems to have figured it out. That is a terrible place to start your argument. From an anomaly. What a terrible argument. You literally did “just play like Serral.”
Warning: this video is tagged as Starcraft instead of Starcraft 2 making it have less engagement with the actual SC2 community and the SC1 community is much smaller
I do think Reynor's wrong about the age thing. There's a lot of cope surrounding that topic, but in professional sports, 30 is generally the beginning of the end. Some rare examples stick around until about 40, but those are insane outliers. You might think that e-sports would be different, but so far, that doesn't seem to be the case. If you're old like me, it's not that surprising.
comparing proffesional sports to e-sports in aging is so fucking stupid. phisical fitness is everything in sports, while totally irrelevant in e-sports. Just cause you can't run as much irl, you won't be a worse rts player
@@macedindu829 who? guys like nestea who left like a decade ago? Most pros left sc2 because of other things like Neeb, who studied and left for a normal job, but still played amazing in his last tournament, which was the last katowice of all things. I don't think any of the old pros left left sc2 cause they can't compete, they left cause they wanted wanted other things to do in life. Many current pros are kinda old already, DRG, dark, herO are "old" as well
@@norberthiz9318 they're not, tho. The "old" players are typically early 30's, just like "old" sports pros. According to your theory, there's no reason some 50 year old man with time on his hands couldn't become a top player. But they never do, do they?
@@macedindu829 almost no 50 year old has ever put enough time into sc2 to be a pro. there are a ton of sc2 pros who are around 30 and doing very very well, herO, dark solar for example are all around 30 years old and are easily in the top 10 in the world currently, just check aligulac.
How to miss such an opportunity ? difficult for me :) especially if it's fresh out of the oven ; anyway, so...he tried again for that gsl and got eliminated 0-4 on a group which I really found it doable to win for him , I would say to even get out first, but oh well, I guess korean elitism is just better KEKW
Wait, did he say that it's unrealistic for zerg to be able to take one more base than Terran by the late game? First of all, HAHAHAHAHAHAH! Second of all, taking about half of the resources of an extra base is more than sufficient. A lot of people would love to win a GSL. Good luck to him.
What's really unrealistic is to expect Terran to get to the ultra late game. In fact, no pro players had done it in any major tournament until Maru showed the way.
Did you watch pro games in the last year? Because you're saying just wrong things. Usually zerg gets at most half a base more than T and loses a full base or even 1.5x in units over the course of the game. Serral is the only zerg in sc 2 that consistently beats T's so badly the game is balanced around it and the other zergs suffer because of it. T lategame is so oppressive Z can feel completely helpless.
@@asdfasdf-mn8iu Please link me an example of a TvZ that used up all the resources on the map where the Terran didn't completely outplay the Zerg all game long.
Sc2 Goat debate and its serral vs maru? I am a Zerg fan, and I would say Maru over Serral is pretty easy heads up. Longevity and GSL code S wins matter. Life is unassailable in the Zerg Goat debate. Dark a distant 2nd.
Couldn't disagree more, Serral is known by everyone as the guy to fear...Life was great but he didn't have longevity and Serral is leaps and bounds ahead. Serral also has the biggest winnings ever and just beat Maru 4-0 in their first ever big finals against each other and completely dominated. I am a big Serral fan but I am also a big Life fan, or was.
i think he's definitely on point with PvT i play Z so i don't care, but the P is supposed to be slightly favored against T since broodwar. it's the way it works. except now, T is too good against P especially in late late game. P has to have the super lategame. but it doesn't. T does
Loved him saying it. Versing mass thor is really obnoxious to go against. It feels oppressive as fuck to mine multiple more and get wrecked by a thor ball.
@@javierestevez9680 I wouldn't say it's super easy to play, but it's disproportionate to the skill bracket to counter. Reminds me of protoss when they could just turtle carrier so easily.
Statistically he is correct and Serral is currently the exception to the rule. Terran are currently slightly better than Zerg in ZvT and Serral having a 96% win rate drags the overall win rate up otherwise Zerg would be worse off and stattstically in late game Terran are way better off, also Terran is 60% to 40% against Protoss across all big tournament games.
I think at IEM, Maru proved his late game was better than Serrals. Serral won cos he had too much momentum coming out of the early game. And that is what proves it, cos maru then equalized the game by the late game. So, I think Maru has a better late game than Serral. Serrals early game is better than anyone else in the world. And the mid game I don't think there is a standout.
Watch the ones with Maxpax he is literally the only protoss in the world that delivers in straight up play against the top Zergs. (Hero gets a bunch of wins but it's often off really tight timings opposed to outplaying in a standard match)
ZvP is fine, if (big if) the balance council doesnt double down on making P impotent in PvT as it has. P>T>Z>P is fine for a game with assymetric balance. The problem is that its actually T>Z>P, where P is just dogshit and Z is only top-tier in the hands of a couple players.
@@2639theboss he did btw, he did 2-0 solar some time ago(PiG even made a video about it iirc, brcause it was so impressive). But I was refering to Reynor beating serral on radhuset station in the last hsc, he didn't beat serral there and he didn't fully play toss, 1st game he beat him in said game, then played 2 zerg got beaten rather easily, then played toss and lost a realatievly close but still serral dominated game(on that map he died before getting to late game, becasue unlike on rathuset he didn't get to play a free lategame, and in the midgame serral just outplayed him)
Would love to see Reynor take a second shot at GSL. It’s definitely a different style of tournament, and I’m sure the way he went out his first time was a humbling yet motivating experience.
Yeah I mean fair, though there is a good reason why no one wants to enter a gsl if you don't live in Korea its a big commitment.
if you give Korean players 1 week to prepare for only 1 opponent then they can beat even Serral, and that is exactly what happened in GSL, every round is 1 week apart from another, unlike most western tournaments where the entire tournament happens in 4 days and you have to play 10 different opponents in 1 weekend. This is partially why Koreans do well in long tournaments like World team league and struggle in short tournaments like every other international tournament. They are just too used to the GSL format where preparation is key, while western players are used to playing multiple opponents in just 2 3 days. Still i do think if Serral plays GSL he has a big chance of winning, the only thing that can stop him is maybe he is not used to living in Korea which affect his health or something, but hey, GSL only give 3000 USD for winning so no point in trying anymore.
@@teddanville6996 Kind of fair, Serral is also one of the best prep players in the world so it barely plays to his disadvantage. But I do agree the chances of a player beating him are probably slightly higher with prep time. But its not like he's never had to play Koreans after a week of prep I mean masters coliseum was not a one weekend event where serral did still destroy korean players (Solar and Maru 3-0 and Hero 5-1 hero should've got another map but threw it. This was in playoffs a week after the Swiss bracket in which Maru actually beat serral 2-0 and Solar lost 1-2 admittedly Serral was a bit off but it does show a longer format benefitting Serral as when he played them a week later it was pretty one sided excluding Maru's mech game it was dominant). So I do agree with your statement but it doesn't really apply to Serral since one of the bigger tests of a long winded tournament like gsl is consistency and Serral is if not the most flashy player but is 100% the most consistent player. Since 2018 he's only placed outside of top 8 3 times. But once again I do somewhat agree I just do not believe it would make a large difference probably at most a high single digit percent increase in win chance vs serral.
Your wish has been granted.
Surprised no one's commented on this yet.
Loved the interview! And great to see Reynor talking about his history with the game as well as his possible future plans.
Love hearing interviews.
Great interview
Great interview 😊
I'd be happy to see Reynor in GSL.
And i'm glad people still cover Starcraft :D
b...but dead game!!!11!1
While not in the talks for GOAT, I really love watching Reynor, Dark, Byun etc. because everything can happen. With Serral it's more like watching a really advanced computer playing. Either you overcome his programming with variables or it ends as predicted.
nice interview man :) love the content
Fully agree with his comment on the cyclone not needing a rework compared to units like the BC and Swarm Host, especially when we were already seeing a little battlemech after the previous patch.
The Italian Stallion. Nice!
Great interview. Reynor being a boss. And he's right with his take on the GoaT.
Reynor is great to talk to and hear from, very articulate. Good interview. Could have pulled on some threads more, maybe?
Beware... wall of text incoming.
About this GOAT debate:
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved.
- There is a player who has the highest win rate vs Koreans in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023).
- There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins; achieved 2 times)
- There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved
- There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans
- which no one else ever achieved
- There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other player being Maru with 78% in 2023 and herO with 74% in 2017.
- There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with Korean Participation (18) and overall (23)
- There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against these top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 12:4:2
vs Dark: 8:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:7:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else.
Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira.. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win.
The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds.
Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 23 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 18 are with Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats.
BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL. So what? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent.
Plus Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated.
That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (Worlds and other events) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share stats, if you disagree.
magnus carlseb undoubtedly is the serral of chess
I agree
Just saying “so what” is pretty fucking stupid. It is a big deal he didn’t go to Korea and compete for months and grind out major tournament wins instead of a weekend in Europe. Koreans going to Europe would be like him going to Korea and he couldn’t do it. He didn’t have the courage or fortitude to achieve the biggest wins and that will always be a knock against him
@@adamwallace7638
That is why I gave reasons as to why "so what" is the appropriate answer to this Korean centrist view.
And no, it is not the same as Koreans going to Europe as you yourself wrote in your post.
The tournaments Koreans won in Europe were all weekend tournaments and Serral won 66% of those weekend tournaments on Korean soil he attempted to win.
The problem with GSL is that it gives less money, and s basically - because of its unnecessarily long format - telling foreigners to stay out for several reasons.
Why unnecessarily? Just look at the GSL that is being held right now: Why are the groups played one week after another? There is no reason for it. You could easily have the first match of each group be played out in 2 days, give the players one week to prepare for the next match and you'd have a probably 4 week tournaments instead of one that spans several months.
Why such formats in general are extremely favorable for players of the country:
1. You have to stay for months in a different country which, even if you win, isn't really worth the cost as you need flights, accommodation and that not only for yourself but also for training partners.
2. You have to get accustomed to a completely different lifestyle.
3. You are away from friends, family and your normal activities to relax.
All the above reasons explain why people who work abroad get paid insane amounts of money by their companies. But in SC2 you'd not only win less prize money, you'd also have to pay for your own flights, accommodation on top of your flat at home as you only stay for a couple of months and moving out is not worth it.
Thus, there never was - nor is right now - a financial incentive. And prize money is how these guys earn their living. So why in the world would you pay thousands of dollars to perhaps not even win, but even if you win you'd live a life you don't want AND on top earn less that if you stayed in your usual environment? It makes no sense at all.
And you are wrong. Serral achieved the biggest wins... he is a 2 time world champion (3, if they hadn't moved the title from IEM 2024 to Saudi Arabia), the highest pinnacle where the best of the world gather. There is also no player who won IEM or the World Championship more often than Serral. Maru for example failed at doing so, despite trying several times.
Serral is the best strategic player on the planet as he has shown several times, so a format that has such long preparation time would - if anything - be a favor to him.
The reason, why no other tournament is held in the format of GSL is because there is no dense enough player base anywhere else in the world and no sane person would live abroad for several months for the cost that is involved relative to the take away you might not even get. Ask yourself why such a format exists only in Korea... then you have the answer why so few foreigners try to compete in the GSL.
Thus, the argumentation of GSL is simply a last straw that Korean elitists have to deny Serral his greatness.
@@marcelbenner993You can’t just hand wave and say “Serral is the best strategic player and a long form tournament would favor him.” (Called a prep tournament by Artosis)
Serral’s results are amazing, and his record everywhere he has competed is amazing. That being said, you can’t equate overall records against players to winning a long form tournament where your opponent gets weeks to prepare SPECIFICALLY for you.
Throughout the history of StarCraft and StarCraft 2, these prep tournaments are the most prestigious and bring out the best competition. So Serral will always have an easy argument against him until he wins a prep tournament.
This is why I love Reynor, because in this exact video you can see he cares about this sort of tournament and building a case for his legacy. The fact that the competitive spirit of Serral has not lead him to want to walk into Korea and take the GSL away is a knock against him.
He could and should have been the first foreign GSL winner, why doesn’t he? That’s the million dollar question and that’s the question on his legacy.
Why didn't this show up in my feed ever? ;'( Both subscribed and alot of SC historian show up but not this video. And I love Reynor :D
Amazing!
When Maru becomes skilled enough for a Raven, I'll try to figure out if he's good as the 5th best zerg that is currently active.
Reynor, if you see this, I want you to know that we have the same desk chair. Its from Ikea. What a bromance this is.
Reynor said exactly what I've been saying from watching TvP: Terran just has a million options. Protoss has a few, and they have to be perfect scouting, and even then, there's some gambling.
And zerg...?? 😅
PvZ is the same. Zerg ALWAYS has the most options
Great interviews and questions, but regarding league, you could have asked his role and champions he plays....
I think if we give the Protos the range that the immortals had back in the day, and give the Archons at level 2 three times the defensive stats. I know that is massive.
In TvZ the Zerg has too many tools. Vipers and infesters have clearly been the most powerful units since the beginning. But, I agree with what you are saying about Zerg, when ever you have a balance patch, and you see a unit disappear, like the brood lord, or the swarm hosts, I see this as very bad for the game. I am for the balance, but against the units disappearing from the pool of effective strats.
Also it has to be acknowledged protos since the beginning has had the words of the patches.
What ever you enjoy. Such a good attitude. Thats fantastic:) great attitude....
I like Miss Fortune and Akali:)
currently, it is Serral. Rogue may contend that once he returns...but the dark horse in the coming decade is MaxPax. I just saw MaxPax play Serral and dumpster on him in the late late game (which no one else can do).
Nah, its actually clem ^^
thx g
I mean i played sc2 for all my life and also only look at the supply
Serral has figured out the most efficient way to play the game against Terran, in the early game. From base 1-5 Serral has figured out how to be the most greedy. And if you don't get to his drone line, he ends up with too much momentum, and he goes on to win the match.
The problem is that Maru was not able to adapt to his game style in enough time. Cos, Serral players in a way, that no one else can play. And so Maru has not had enough exposure to that. So it stands to reason that Serral would win in the beginning.
Also, the way that Maru plays the matchup, is nothing like Clem. And to beat Serral, you need that game style in your arsenal, otherwise he gets too comfortable in the matchup. Also, the game before can set the person up to win the next game, cos you then have to take the fact that they have more strategies to win into account, and this has an effect on openings.
I don't think that it is that Serral is that much better. I think that its cos Maru just has not played enough games against him.
I know this sounds weird. But you have to add the way Clem players to your arsenal. And also again this is the weird part, you have to begin to proxy the Zerg. Ok, I know that sounds like I don't play the game, and I don't cos of a medical condition. But, the ides is not for it not to be scouted, the idea is that the Zerg then has to build zerglings at the beginning of the game instead of drones to do it. And then any zergling, or offensive unti you can make them build in the first three minutes of the game, then has a massive knock-on effect, limiting their snowball potential.
I also think you need as a Terran to add Reaper and Hellion flooding into your strat, and tie this into a regular proxy strat against the zerg. Cos the way Seral plays, he is too comfortable in the beginning of the game. You need to take that away from him. And then he has to take in the fact that you have that strat into account in the next games that you play.
Any Reaper hellion flood, needs should be backed up with banchee or BC, cos they are excellent defensive units in the early game. And the BC goes on to be an excellent defensive unit for the rest of the game.
Hello, this interview is awesome. Could you please allow me to reprint this video to Chinese bilibili video website. I will attached the link of original materials. If you mind what i did, please tell me.❤
I already have partners for exporting my work to China. Sorry!
It's OK Thanks for telling this❤
I'm glad to see that Reynor agrees that TvP is imbalanced. Playing as both terran and Protoss, it is clearly terran favored.
Reynor is so wrong about the late game balance vs terran. It would be unfair that in the late game terran is stronger if zerg's economy wasn't better. Since zerg is a swarmy faction with the best economy and the best scouting and the most flexible, that NEEDS to be compensated with a stronger army and more efficient like terran o protoss should have vs them. So it is normal that zerg needs to take an extra base if they can't break terran in the mid game. But players like Serral show that terran is not OP vs zerg. He just not playing as good as Serral doesn't mean that the game is not balanced.
nobody is playing as good as Serral in SC2 community nowadays
Serral is an anomaly though, what he's saying is right that Zerg need way more resources because trade much more efficiently. Also all of Zergs main late game units have been heavily nerfed and with broods especially it really shows. Also it's Reynor I think he knows way better than us. Also when you look statistically Serral is the except to the rule...Zergs are struggling these days and only Serral has a fantastic record. These are statistics looking at matchup win rates and player winrates since the last patch.
No he is not wrong. Players like Serral? PLAYER like Serral, singular as in only one person in the whole world seems to have figured it out. That is a terrible place to start your argument. From an anomaly.
What a terrible argument. You literally did “just play like Serral.”
Warning: this video is tagged as Starcraft instead of Starcraft 2 making it have less engagement with the actual SC2 community and the SC1 community is much smaller
calling serral the goat compliments reynor for beating him in IEM ;)
Serral not going to Korea to compete for GSL will forever be a regret
I do think Reynor's wrong about the age thing. There's a lot of cope surrounding that topic, but in professional sports, 30 is generally the beginning of the end. Some rare examples stick around until about 40, but those are insane outliers. You might think that e-sports would be different, but so far, that doesn't seem to be the case. If you're old like me, it's not that surprising.
comparing proffesional sports to e-sports in aging is so fucking stupid. phisical fitness is everything in sports, while totally irrelevant in e-sports. Just cause you can't run as much irl, you won't be a worse rts player
@@norberthiz9318 Then where are the old esports pros?
@@macedindu829 who? guys like nestea who left like a decade ago? Most pros left sc2 because of other things like Neeb, who studied and left for a normal job, but still played amazing in his last tournament, which was the last katowice of all things.
I don't think any of the old pros left left sc2 cause they can't compete, they left cause they wanted wanted other things to do in life. Many current pros are kinda old already, DRG, dark, herO are "old" as well
@@norberthiz9318 they're not, tho. The "old" players are typically early 30's, just like "old" sports pros. According to your theory, there's no reason some 50 year old man with time on his hands couldn't become a top player. But they never do, do they?
@@macedindu829 almost no 50 year old has ever put enough time into sc2 to be a pro. there are a ton of sc2 pros who are around 30 and doing very very well, herO, dark solar for example are all around 30 years old and are easily in the top 10 in the world currently, just check aligulac.
No pineapple on pizza question?
How to miss such an opportunity ? difficult for me :) especially if it's fresh out of the oven ; anyway, so...he tried again for that gsl and got eliminated 0-4 on a group which I really found it doable to win for him , I would say to even get out first, but oh well, I guess korean elitism is just better KEKW
Wait, did he say that it's unrealistic for zerg to be able to take one more base than Terran by the late game? First of all, HAHAHAHAHAHAH! Second of all, taking about half of the resources of an extra base is more than sufficient. A lot of people would love to win a GSL. Good luck to him.
What's really unrealistic is to expect Terran to get to the ultra late game. In fact, no pro players had done it in any major tournament until Maru showed the way.
Did you watch pro games in the last year? Because you're saying just wrong things. Usually zerg gets at most half a base more than T and loses a full base or even 1.5x in units over the course of the game. Serral is the only zerg in sc 2 that consistently beats T's so badly the game is balanced around it and the other zergs suffer because of it. T lategame is so oppressive Z can feel completely helpless.
@@asdfasdf-mn8iu Please link me an example of a TvZ that used up all the resources on the map where the Terran didn't completely outplay the Zerg all game long.
@@Pravuz Any game with serral that has all resources on the map mined. I have yet to see any T that can even remotely keep up with serral.
Correct.. Zerg getting 1 or 2 more bases than Terran is not only standard but expected at this point. Pros say weird things sometimes.
Maru got bodied by Scarlet 2-0 in the g.s.l enough said......
Sc2 Goat debate and its serral vs maru? I am a Zerg fan, and I would say Maru over Serral is pretty easy heads up. Longevity and GSL code S wins matter.
Life is unassailable in the Zerg Goat debate. Dark a distant 2nd.
Couldn't disagree more, Serral is known by everyone as the guy to fear...Life was great but he didn't have longevity and Serral is leaps and bounds ahead. Serral also has the biggest winnings ever and just beat Maru 4-0 in their first ever big finals against each other and completely dominated. I am a big Serral fan but I am also a big Life fan, or was.
iem 4：0
DH 4：0
maru suck
@@梦想通关魂斗罗 read it again and then come back with the stats.
i think he's definitely on point with PvT
i play Z so i don't care, but the P is supposed to be slightly favored against T since broodwar. it's the way it works. except now, T is too good against P
especially in late late game. P has to have the super lategame. but it doesn't. T does
finally reynor saying the true about zerg fucking thor imba in all the leagues under the top 20 players.
Loved him saying it. Versing mass thor is really obnoxious to go against. It feels oppressive as fuck to mine multiple more and get wrecked by a thor ball.
@@Icetemplar super hard to kill super easy to play. Whatch reynor killing lambo playing turtle mec lol
@@javierestevez9680 I wouldn't say it's super easy to play, but it's disproportionate to the skill bracket to counter. Reminds me of protoss when they could just turtle carrier so easily.
Reynor is totally biased when talking about balance.
Statistically he is correct and Serral is currently the exception to the rule. Terran are currently slightly better than Zerg in ZvT and Serral having a 96% win rate drags the overall win rate up otherwise Zerg would be worse off and stattstically in late game Terran are way better off, also Terran is 60% to 40% against Protoss across all big tournament games.
I think at IEM, Maru proved his late game was better than Serrals. Serral won cos he had too much momentum coming out of the early game. And that is what proves it, cos maru then equalized the game by the late game. So, I think Maru has a better late game than Serral. Serrals early game is better than anyone else in the world. And the mid game I don't think there is a standout.
I mean it's not surprising that he doesn't want zerg nerfed, but it really needs to happen, lategame zvp is not good at all to watch these days.
Watch the ones with Maxpax he is literally the only protoss in the world that delivers in straight up play against the top Zergs. (Hero gets a bunch of wins but it's often off really tight timings opposed to outplaying in a standard match)
ZvP is fine, if (big if) the balance council doesnt double down on making P impotent in PvT as it has.
P>T>Z>P is fine for a game with assymetric balance.
The problem is that its actually T>Z>P, where P is just dogshit and Z is only top-tier in the hands of a couple players.
Reynor himself showed that late game pvz is totally fine for protoss. Protoss players just refuse to go for late game.
@@norberthiz9318 When did Reynor show that late game P is fine? He hasnt won a single series against a top player with P.
@@2639theboss he did btw, he did 2-0 solar some time ago(PiG even made a video about it iirc, brcause it was so impressive). But I was refering to Reynor beating serral on radhuset station in the last hsc, he didn't beat serral there and he didn't fully play toss, 1st game he beat him in said game, then played 2 zerg got beaten rather easily, then played toss and lost a realatievly close but still serral dominated game(on that map he died before getting to late game, becasue unlike on rathuset he didn't get to play a free lategame, and in the midgame serral just outplayed him)
Lol now people start mock gsl? What a wonderful fandom