Why doesn't ENGLAND produce GREAT SPINNERS? |
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
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Apologies to all the Somerset fans, I used Ciderbad, as I saw it quoted in many articles, but I hear the preferred term is Ciderabad. I am use to being corrected on names, nicknames for pitches is a new one.
How does Dom Bess get his wickets? How good is Jack Leach? And is Moeen Ali the best spinner in England? I get to all that, using the SCGM Treatment, naturally. And we look at why England can't produce the best spinners. Why read this, anyway? Watch the video.
Other places where you find things I put up:
Writing: wickets.substa...
Podcast: anchor.fm/redi...
Twitter: / ajarrodkimber
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#Cricket
The entire Somerset story is very interesting. If there are no turning tracks at first class level how can one expect the main team to win consistently in Asia!
No, but they do prepare a lot for these series.
@@JarrodKimberYT Yes which are expected, maybe more England A tours to Asia to bridge the gap. Skills of using the feet are a huge importance for consistently playing spin. Maybe playing against the Asian teams will help both batters and spinners to gain experience!
@@JarrodKimberYT The real preparation is playing county cricket at turning Taunton when points are on the line. Match pressure is different.
@Wonder Man He's ruled himself out of red ball cricket due to a dodgy shoulder. He's sticking to white ball cricket because less stress on it
What annoys me is up until recently spinning pitches were evil but it was okay to produces pitches on which the dobbers like Darren Stevens could be ultra effective.
Not knocking Darren at all, but if you put him on Aussie pitches he'd get smashed to kingdom come.
Some excellent analysis - finally not looking at results, and looking into what is actually good cricket!
When Vaughan said that he cannot believe that Moeen was picked ahead of Bess, I chuckled.
Could be bias
Meh, Vaughn is a certified idiot. Best ignored.
I don't think Vaughan is fond of Moeen, or Muslims in general
@@shounakbanerjee8904 why be hateful or fond of any whole community
After hearing about the rafiq case I think it may be more than just a cricketing thing
And after all this hard work, there is Virender Sehwag, who doesn't even consider finger spinners as bowlers. Imagine, the guy treats finger spinners as dummy bowlers😂
That does not make any sense.....if anything it shows Sehwag's ignorance...
dude sehwag would have taken all the spinners in the game for cleaners, sehwag treated spinners like trash, he had no respect for them, honestly spinners hated bowling him and were scared bowling.
@@rupeshkaushal1878 what about murli??? I heard in one of his interviews that murli really bothered him till about 08'. Only after that he found a way to play him out
It would've been interesting how sehwag would've fared against prime warne or shaqlin
@@c.augustedupin8860 no man i dont think any spinnee bothered him, may be wen he was new in indian team someone may have but as long as i remember him as far as i can look back he took everyone for cleaners, i remember wen ajantha mendis was new every batsman struggled against him of all teams, sehwag scored 200 in a test match and treated him like school boy, as for warne, warne struggled against indian batters, vvs, laxman, sachin, fab 4 played him very well sehwag would have too.
@@rupeshkaushal1878 murli???...and I am not talking about any run of the mill bowler but the legendary murli himself , shaqlin troubled India, despite India being reputed to be excellent players of the spin.
Graeme Swann was a very good spinner that was orthodox and found success in India by sticking to basics.
Swann still put a pretty big rip on it, but yes, his accuracy was excellent.
He was also better than these three, by a considerable distance. Which helps.
Graeme Swann had the advantage of being picked too young then discarded by Duncan Fletcher. When he was recalled, he had a lot of county experience at both Northants and Notts, both good spinning counties at the time. Plus he really gave the ball a big rip.
Bess still has potential being only 23, Graeme swann only found success when he was around 28 (?), so sticking with him could be an option
@@jonathanjaffa4875 I think this is overlooked by people - Swann got big turn regularly, more than any other SENA fingerspinner I have seen. I heard in an interview that he would grip the ball with the second knuckle of his index finger on the seam (as opposed to the first), which gave a much tighter grip and meant he imparted a lot more force on the ball than a traditional offspin grip. And from simply observing his action, I suspect he also had some extra elbow rotation in his action to which added revs - and would also explain his elbow injuries.
This is next level stuff...keep them coming..bloody star nd sonyliv can't even produce a decent post lunch or a post match show...brilliant analysis.
Ciderbad, lol. Seconds into the video and I was hooked.
Wow, I had no idea this channel existed! Amazing content, good Analysis! 👍
England should make a few spin pitches at times, Will help their cricket overall.
Loved watching Graeme Swann bowl. Beautiful action with amazing level of accuracy.
Great great vid. I know he’s all about limited over but I highly rate Rashid and think he could be a better pick than these three.
Why does quality content has less views. It's not fair. You deserve more views.
First video I’ve watched from this channel but this is class
All downhill from here
Jarrod Kimber - TH-camr of the year
Fuck you Jake Paul (seriously have no idea the names of any of the others
@@JarrodKimberYT LOL
monty panesar and graeme swann were absolute beasts and dominated even in Indian soils
Both came from Northants on a wicket that used to spin. I believe.
@@JarrodKimberYT brother.... We need a discord server.... That to a free one...
@Sonu Rocks Panesar was a cracking bowler
@Sonu Rocks only in subcontinent but rest everywhere he was treated as dummy bowler
@@anm6424 no he wasn't mate
5:36 I love how me pointed out ‘Bairstow arse’ just in case someone didn’t realise 😂
Should have had a "Bairstow Elbow" too
Absolutely loved it! And to see Jadeja's position in the last plot; just shows how important a player he is for India.
I am too late to discover such quality content. Brilliant.
Swann is best spinner coming from England. John Embuery & Phil Edmonds.
Laker and Underwood were handy. Verity would have been that good too
Thanks Jarrod, very interesting. Based on what you said, Stuart Broad and Jofra Archer's ability to repeatedly dismiss David Warner cheaply had a clear benefactor in the 2019 Ashes. They were removing the batsman most likely to cause Jack Leach problems. Warner didn't face a ball of spin in that series, not even at Headingley.
Ha. I like that idea
Briliant analysis
Because they don't try Amar Virdi for some reason, even though he's the leading English spinner in the last few county championship years
I would not throw him in now if I’m honest. But he’s not far away.
True but that’s also because Bess and leach haven’t been playing in the county championship for a few years
@@JarrodKimberYT Garry Lyon is over mate. Finished.
OMG Jadeja is the best test bowler ever least economy and avg on that graph, the perfect spot to be in. And is handy with the bat
Jarrod, can you make a video on the state of cricket in other countries too? It’s doing amazing in India, I love it. But I don’t want it to become like Baseball , where American teams play amongst themselves and call the winner the “World champion” 😂, because hardly any other country plays baseball at that level.
Check out my one on South Africa
Great video.
This is the best cricket related content on yt...glad I found your channel.👍
Welcome aboard, mate
Moeen Ali is one of the most underrated cricketer ever. Playing him at number 8 is criminal tbh specially in Asia. Love him.
Are you going to do any polite enquiries episodes?... its dull without sarcasm and your insights!.. 😄😄
I don’t work for Cricinfo. So it’s doubtful
And I agree with deadpool 2. 1st one was way superior.
Your too harsh mate fookin hell 😂
it means that dom bess literally kicked everyone's arse off to get wickets. the players did everything they can to get him wickets but he ran out of luck to get exposed, and even sad part is that he is still not able to make mark in county games, whereas Parkinson is ripping the ball like a warne.
Monty Panesar for me is a perfect example of what a England sppiner should be like, very accurate and within his skills , kind of what Leach does
England deserve to be put through “dustbowl” after “dustbowl” until they are GROUND to dust JUST for fining Somerset for spinning tracks. RIDICULOUS!
Hard to believe the legendary Jim Laker was an English spinner...
I like the fact that Bess doesnt seem scared at a young age to put a little flight on his off breaks. Too many younger spinners end up darting it in.
If I were selecting the side right now I would look at the pitch. If its Trent Bridge you might not even need the spinner. Play Bess. Hes learning and can bat a bit. If its going to be a 5 days test. Go Leach.
That's one thing England like about him. Not just in his bowling, but in the field, and with the bat.
Well done Jarrod. Another very good observation about MacGill. All over the internet I hear how MacGill was a better spinner than Warne or even how unlucky MacGill was which makes me roll my eyes. MacGill and Mushtaq Ahmed were leggies with a lot of skill but who bowled the one release ball (boundary ball) almost every over (Tahir was even worse). MacGill averaged 50+ vs both India and SL (the two good teams vs spin; Pak had Younis Khan, Inzi and Md. Yousuf who were terrific vs spin but the rest were bad vs spin) but more importantly whereas Warne went at 3 an over, MacGill went at 3.6 an over vs India against good players of spin. MacGill played on favorable pitches vs teams which played spin badly to have such a good record. He was not as good as most casual fans think he was.
Macgill is probably only said to have spun it more than warne because he deliberately tried to turn it big every ball and had less variation. Not to say they weren't equal in that department- but Macgill almost definitely couldnt get more maximum turn than Warne
@@lukeallison3713 Warne was a big Turner of the ball in the first part of his career but after surgery on his shoulder he lost the ability to turn the ball as much and he also lost his deadly flipper. He became a more subtle bowler afterwards. McGill was less crafty but was a huge spinner and he had a wrong'n which Warne didn't.
@@almac9203 2005 ashes says otherwise. It might have been his body too but he wasn't trying to bowl a wonder ball every ball unlike McGill because the variation worked. When he did, its hard to see anybody turning at as much as Warne
@@lukeallison3713 I watched tons of Warne and he didn't turn the ball as much as McGill. He relied on accuracy and subtle variations rather than big turn and his previously devastating flipper. He definitely changed his style after his shoulder problems. I used to be a leggie myself so I know what he was doing and I know what McGill was doing. Warne was my idol growing up and I watched tons of his bowling. Warne was the GOAT but McGill definitely turned it more.
England misses Monty Panesar badly. He used to bowl at 90+kmph on rank turners which is a nightmare for batsmen
And basically a perfect English spinner- economy of less than 2.8
I haven't watch the video yet (about to).. but my assumption to this point is that the English pitches like all west/ Australian pitches are suited for pace. Also the social pressure and glamour of a fast bowler heavy weighed against spin which is ironic considering spin bowlers usually win matches and end up with all time high statistics. Also spinners tend to be more patient and strategic bowlers which is a lost quality in the morderna era. Wonder if you agree?
You have to be patient to be a seamer, there aren't many inaccurate spinners out there.
England treats spinners like my team treated me in village cricket! I relate them. They should not be that conservative.
They never gave a single chance to Virdi on Indian soil. So English thing.
Leach better stay away from pant or find a way to get him out in a short time or else Pant is gonna end his career at this rate
He got him out in this match
@@TheZer0wned exactly, he should get him out quickly or else pant is gonna end his career at this rate
Let pant try to play swing in English conditions. Jimmy and broad will end his career
@@c.augustedupin8860 yeah maybe but there's still time for that
ok. pant's career gonna be over when he will face jimmy and broady
Guess Bess' luck did run out ! Plus your analysis about his full tosses is bang on - he didn't drop any chance to add more sample data to your analysis when he bowled in the fourth test :D
This is the exact amount of analysis I want every time there's a question on the importance of spinners. Would love to hear your analysis on the role of seamers on spinning pitch
Wowwww great content. This is like gold standard among the cricket analysts. Wishing you go great heights in future 👍🏼
Hahaha...lmao when bairstow arse pointed by a text saying "bairstow arse"😂🤣😂🤣
As someone who loves cricket and statistics, this is my fav youtube channel
Surprised at your subs for the quality you give, perhaps with time. Superb stuff... Seen few videos, all were engaging!!!!!👍👍👍
the name I can see in this (13:17) chart is and only N Wagner.
Your channel has great content Jarrod! Looking forward to much more :)
Excellent analysis
Ali anyday over Bess
Is there a video on India's lack of quality pace bowling all rounders? If not could you please make one
The world has a lack of them. Hard to point at India.
@@JarrodKimberYT Could you make a video on that topic, if possible?
People don't seem to know about the greatest Jim Laker followed by Tony Lock, lIlingworth . They just lost self belief and commitment
Laker, Lock and Illingworth bowled on uncovered wickets. They don't have those any more. This isn't about belief, it's about conditions.
There is skills in playing spin but when you give a pothole like pitch no foreign team would be able to compete unless they have 2 of the best spin bstsman and 2 best spin bowlers and England have 0 of them. The last team which won on rank turners was Aus that too with exceptional Smith and Lyon and O'Keefe spells (3/4) with decent support from other players. If you are 2 or less than 4 then you are bound to lose.
So Ashwin is best spin batsman as well?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 What on Earth were ECB thinking when they fined Somerset? One small thing you've got going for you lot so that you can get yourself prepared for Asian tours, and you're shooting that down. How can no one connect the dots in the board there? It's just dumb.
I guess u dont even need to be a special spinner to become successful on asian pitches
.
All u have to do is stick to the basics ( like how Dominic Bess did since Sri Lanka series) and you will have a good series in Asia
.
All the teams from sub continent are good at playing spin so it wont be a right way to actually judge a bowler from SENA countries only on the basis of his success in Sub continent pitches
Another thing is consistency. Yes, any average bowler will get turn, but people are accustomed to play that there. You still need to show intensity and consistency. Like we saw in the second test.
English mindset needs to change.
Pace is not superior to spin. Both pace and spin are bowls that get wicket.
So, either invest in digging some talents out or stop showcasing Pace is THE THING.
Adil Rashid is only English spinner to have any consistent control over where he lands the ball. But somehow isn't picked or encouraged to play test cricket.
I think he has a bad shoulder. Can't bowl 20-25 overs a day.
Swannson was the only world class spinner for England since Derek Underwood. Other than those two, Laker and Lock I don't think Eng have had a world class spinner.
You have to hope it will improve in the future. Especially now you're seeing leg spin, mystery spin become quite trendy and effective. Hopefully young kids in all countries will grow up wanting to be the next Rashid Khan or Adil Rashid etc. The main thing for english cricket to do is to encourage it. Just because we have green pitches and not dust bowls doesn't mean we cant produce good spinners. We have to get out of that mindset. A Rashid Khan could bowl on a green seamer and still take 5 wickets
I think that is fair, the pithes play a part, but there are other things you can do too.
Don't forget the wonderful duo of Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann !!!
Why on earth England haven't tried a Leg Spinner? Matt Parkinson has been waiting in the Test squad for over a year now and still can't get a game.
indians eat leggies for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you better off playing an offie.
For the same reason we never used to play ultra skilled footballers in the national team very often , Le Tissier, Hoddle, Gascogne all got well and truly shafted)
A deep mistrust of anything unorthodox,intelligent ,unpredictable and difficult to harness. If Shane Warne had been English they have banned him and he’d have become a postman.
Plzz make a video on IPL Auction
Jarrod “visit my channel you cowards” Kimber. I like that.
Ha, cheers
Remember reading your cutting analysis on espncricinfo website. Glad I found out your channel.
Lol 3:47 Domino Bess
5:30 arse...lol
An amazingly detailed analysis! Great job!
England has the ability to produce the best deliveries by spinners but not the best spinners.
Well concluded💛😁
Uneducated talk by them ..They need to be educated about cricket , India scores 600+
They 124 all out ,164 all out..
Great , India , won
❤️🙏
Macgill has a better record than Warne in the test matches they played together, right? Though I'm sure a big chunk of them would have been tailend wickets.
McGill was a limited bowler. There was a reason that warne played ahead of McGill when one spinner was required because warne was better on surfaces not spinning much whereas they played McGill only when pitches were turning and they needed two spinners because all McGill did was to spin the ball big. Not clever or accurate like warne.
@@nishagovil9207McGill was good. He just happened to play at the exact same time as the great Shane Warne. If he was older or younger he would have been a great player. There just wasn't any room for two spinners on a regular basis.
Interesting stuff-would you say that England would be best playing 4 quicks (Anderson/Broad, Archer, Stone/Wood, Woakes/Curran) and Stokes in non-spinning conditions, and then use Root as the spin option? Or blood in someone young like Virdi?
I think Bess can develop, and Leach is too good at what he does to discard. Moeen is still a match winning cricketer. I don't think the answer is playing less spinners, I think it's finding a way to develop the spinners you have Virdi/Parkinson and the current lot. I don't think talent is the problem.
Foakes was very good. Keeping, though there were errors.
Ray Illingworth was a strong proponent for uncovered pitches. His argument was that batsmen would improve their technique against sharp turn and bounce whereas the bowlers would learn to bowl a good line and length (ball after ball) to exploit the vagaries of the uncovered pitch. I'm inclined to agree with him.
I don't know if uncovered would help, only because it's a differnt kind of skill to bat on. But, I would ban the roller once play has started.
@@JarrodKimberYT I think uncovered pitches would lead to very quick games - which the county sides would be very unpleased with!! Ray was always quick to point out that it was by being brought up on uncovered wickets which helped him make a 'grinding' 50 against Lillee, Mallett and Inverarity on the 'infamous' Fusarium test at Headingley in 1972.
Manners: Do you remember a couple of days ago when Jarrod Kimber called Axar Patel a 'sugar-free Ravi Jadeja'?
Jarrod: there is no problem with saying you are not as good as one of the best players in the world (which I agree with)
Matt Prior: Kimber, I've watched you play cricket and I am astonished by the level of disrespect you give international cricketers
[we also hear Gareth Batty laughing in the background]
-> However Matt Prior forgets how once, he got out quite cheaply in a game, and in the end it was Gareth Batty and Jarrod who got a partnership and got the team back on track....
Another side note, watch this video to see why Ravi Jadeja is so good.... th-cam.com/video/SARpU3N-pb0/w-d-xo.html
Top class analysis. The way of watching cricket will be different after listening to Jarood.
Why does not India produce great Ski jumpers.
👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏🤗🤗🤗💐💐💐❤️❤️❤️ what an in-depth analysis with data
You are great 👍🏻
Australia has exactly the same issue - the pitches do not suit spin. At all. And they have gotten flatter.
Since the 1960s with Benaud, we've had very, very few spinners of genuinely good test quality. Lyon, MacGill, Mallett and Warne are obvious - but who else? O'Keefe, Terry Jenner, Bob Holland and Tim May all retired with test averages well into the 30s. Certainly, the cupboard looks pretty bare after Lyon departs, too.
Really good👍👍
There's a huge lack of English spinners full-stop.
Let's look at which spinners are even realistic to pick. I'd say they have to meet the following criteria:
1. 100 or more first-class wickets at under 40 OR
2. 50 or more first-class wickets at under 30 AND
3. Under the age of 36 (to avoid Gareth Batty)
That doesn't leave many sensible spinners:
- Moeen Ali
- Dom Bess
- Scott Borthwick (is now a batsman who barely bowls)
- Danny Briggs
- Liam Dawson (is unavailable for current tour - injured)
- Simon Kerrigan (probably still getting counselling for Test-related trauma)
- Jack Leach
- Matt Parkinson
- Adil Rashid (is all but retired from first-class cricket)
- Amar Virdi
So England have basically taken every sensible spinner with them on this trip to India and Sri Lanka, with the exception of Danny Briggs. There's no quick fix available, unless they were to take a massive gamble on youth with someone like Dan Moriarty
Yeah, to fix this is a long game, not a short fix. Don't think throwing young kids in will work.
2 years on, nearly a year into the Bazball era, and Bess is nowhere, Moeen is a white ball specialist, and Leach is the stalwart with full backing from captain Stokes. He's not especially economically or penetrative, and he's the token tailend blocker in a team of berserkers, but he keeps one end busy. Stokes' fitness issues have probably contributed to Leach getting more overs. Root's record is probably not much worse as the second spinner.
Rehan has become the youngest (English?) spinner to take a fifer at Test level, and is being, I hope, carefully managed. He may hone his craft mainly in franchise cricket.
Why dont they produce good spinners?..They do, under English 'conditions'!..Look at their actions, all the ones who have come to Australia over the past 25 years, have been 'rollers' not genuine finger spinners! (Monty Panesar aside)..The last one, Leach, just rolled the ball out and like those before him, got flogged down the ground at will! If your going to bowl finger spin, you have to use both index finger and wrist together to get 'work' on the ball, like Lyon does! English finger spinners seem to have lost 'the art', no doubt due to English pitch conditions, so all they have to do is, just roll it out, and wait for the inevitable to happen!
This may hurt a few folks but I think institutionalized racism may have also discourage a few Asian descent young spinners in England from further development. Azeem Rafiq is a high profile case but think of players on club levels. Possible that is why Zafar Ansari also retired that early. Monty Panesar was mismanaged by England. Adil Rashid stopped playing for Yorkshire in first class cricket, possibly due to the racism in the club and white ball expertise was enough for him to have a livelihood. Moreover, you also need a good captain to know what to do with spinners, how to manage them and how to develop them further. Lyon wasn't very good when he first started, but Michael Clarke was a shrewd captain and knew how to get the best out of Lyon. Lyon owes his career to Michael Clarke. Sadly England had Alastair Cook who was as poor as captain as Root. His mismanagement ruined Moeen Ali's career as a batting allrounder and also dither other spinners from further development.
Why don't they make any spin track?
Natural English pitches are not suitable for spin.its just suitable for the seemers (Swing,movement.....) .
13:07 Look at Ravi Jadeja 🔥
Slightly controversial opinion! Wouldnt you say Swann in some ways was similar to SCG MacGill?
1) Played all of his cricket at the peak of his career and was disposed when he wasnt needed again
2) English pitches from 2008-2013 were dry pitches that all helped spin and he used those conditions well
3) In the two tours where the pitch wasnt assisting spin Aus 2010 and 2013 he got creamed
4) Played all the tours of the subcontinent in that period and made merry.
5) South African pitches too at the time also assisted spin. Shakib on the previous tour took 11 wickets @20.
6) So basically if you take out all the matches in Swanns career where conditions weren't in his favour he was ordinary too.
From an age perspective yes. Had he been picked when he was young it wouldn’t have worked probably. But he had to play every test. Even if you say the home wickets were dry, he still knew no matter what he was bowling. SCG never had that.
Great cricket brings out great writing. Loving the video and text essays, Jarrod!
Control of your Lyon or your length you say, hehehehe
Garry is fucken finished now. Time to retire.
there are some good options coming through now with rehan ahmed - the obvious one - and also will jacks ,better known for his batting, but also a constantly improving off spinner
They do!
Michael Gove and Gavin Williamson to name but two large ones.
Oh, spinners. Thought you said spanners. My bad.
Deadpool would absolutely be a leggie who smashes it. Also he'd flight the ball up shamelessly and drift it slightly down leg half the time, hoping for the magic ball. And he'd probably get it to work.
Apart from the statistics, I believe that there are 2 major reasons why he gets so many wickets :
1. Batsmen are complacent
2. His good balls are really good, batsmen don't expect bad balls.
You lost me at "apart from the statistics"
England has already produced the great spinners. Trouble is, we produced them about a hundred years ago.
Why do they have to produce when u can buy them from SA or NZ
English pitches don't really spin and the weather is made for swing bowling
ECB - picks Bess & Leach for an Ashes tour
*HMMMMMMMMM*
Thanks sir great video for finger spinners 👌👌👌
Come on Dom Bess is world class. Better that Warne or Murali. For sure 😂
This is the best channel for cricket nerds!!