HEROES REBORN: Marvel Comics Failed Reboot
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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"Heroes Reborn" was a 1996-97 crossover story arc among comic book series published by Marvel Comics. During this one-year, multi-title arc, Marvel outsourced the production of several of its most famous comic books (including The Avengers and the Fantastic Four) to the studios of its popular former employees and Image Comics founders, Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld.
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The two things I remember from that book is how MF DOOMsday's outfit was unexpected, caused speculation and it wore away during their punch ballet recital revealing DOOM to be a alien I killed Men in Black animated series. tiger LCD game
Superman had never been punched by a high res generic PS1 monster before so he had to think fast so he died.
And then at the end of the book is like this four-page mock magazine with like pho remembrance of Superman from like Elvis Costello and Gore Vidal. I'm like 11 reading this like who it's 2002 grandpa's. But there's this kind of touching piece of writing that's supposed to John Goodman about seeing Mr !SPmixlplx walking aimlessly while looking through his pockets for something that's not there and it was as if he was a ghost at ground zero where Supes had last been. To cap the moment off we have a appearance of Roseanne shaking Superman's dead body telling him to wake up in laser blast all the Democrats and if he doesn't then he is a pedophile.
I hope Captain America doesn't eventually get rebooted as a 2nd gulf war veteran in future decades.
The beauty of the character is, the further away we get from WW2, the more it plays into him being a man out of time. I'd love to still be alive in 2045 and read the latest Cap reboot of him being unfrozen in a time about 100 years past his own.
SensiofRabbitude Exactly. The point of Captain America is that he represents everything good about the American spirit, and the last time the American military was a force for good was when they fought Nazis in WWII. After that, it’s much more morally dubious (even in WWII, they dropped two nukes on a country that they knew contacted Russia to try to broach a peace agreement. But Cap was frozen before that happened, so you could argue he represents America’s loss innocence).
Captain America being a man frozen in time means they never really have to change his origin so I don't think they ever will. Unlike say, Iron Man where you either have to change the war or just make the conflict vague and fictional. Reviving Captain America in the modern age still works as well as reviving Captain America in the 60's.
they already ruined the Punisher...he's a Vietnam vet who served 2 tours. 1989, he's a cop? 2004, he's a undercover CIA? netflix show, he's some kind of Desert Storm guy. only one that got his back story perfect but too bad the movie itself sucks, is Punisher Warzone. maybe they'll reboot Captain America in the future...he was frozen during the Clone Wars. oh it's gonna happen. who owns Star Wars and Marvel? Disney! that's right, so if Disney wanted some shit like that, they'll make it. hey, that's an idea...Marvel Vs. Star Wars crossover.
@@Skaarxiong1 The reason they did that to the Punisher IMO, is because he'd be in his 70s in the comics right now, but they still want to use him, the only real important thing from his backstory, is that loses his Family to the mob, and he goes on a killing spree. Whereas Captain America's backstory is so rooted in WW2, it would be extremely hard to change something like that without backlash, and as time moves on the can just say he was frozen in ice for 100 years, and hes still a WW2 vet, and can be as young as they want
@@derekraynor496 just like spiderman. He's been in high school since the 60s, probably the oldest high schooler in the world. And lastly, enough with the race changes. We get it, there's Libtards and Hollywood... more like Chomowood with all the sex offenders....are pushing their Libtard multicultural crap but when a comic book and it's characters are already established and the fans already love it for the last 50 yrs, don't change it. Also, maybe Frank Dux...er..I mean Castle should retire and bring in Micheal Lynn (something like that) to take over since they are pushing feminazi crap with everything else. Who is this Micheal Lynn or whatever her name is? She is the female Punisheep, I mean Punisher if you read Publisher, I mean Punisher back in the 90s.
Heroes reborn gave us the Thunderbolts. Worth it.
This man gets it.
Yeah, if that did come from heroes reborn I'll take it. Those were good in the 90s.
fun fact: this thing performed extremley well in sales. Easily one of marvels biggest succeses in terms of pure numbers. Took avengers books avaraging around 40-50 thousand copies to 120-130 thousand copies each. Even when it ended most tiltles where still selling between 80 and 100 thousand copies going out of the event.
Despite the overall failure of the Heroes Reborn, the first 6 Fantastic Four was a good story for them and would make a good basis for introducing the FF to the MCU, especially since Black Panther and the Skrulls feature in it. It would be a great trilogy of movies ending with the introduction of Galactus (which be a great crossover with the Avengers, Spiderman, etc... of the MCU Phase 7 by that time).
Why does Iron Man looks like Blue-Bettle?
I hated this reboot because it derailed Waid and Garney's run on Captain America, which was doing amazing things before this reboot.
I'll be honest: I loved the Iron Man in this series, at least for the first few issues. It was my introduction to the character and the art was exquisite. But I'll be the first to admit that HR had it's problems.
Who wants to hear the same stories over and over let characters grow
I think when it comes to comics, it should be to each their own. Not everyone hated it, not everyone criticized it. I personally enjoyed it, especially the art. Just like DC's New 52, it should depend on the person, not what everyone is saying.
Wow!!excellent synopsis on how everything fit into the start and finish of Heroes Reborn!!I originally thought it was a fully creative decision to further the story of the Onslaught and Age of Apocalypse arcs..And i had pretty much placed the blame of it's failure on Rob Liefeld's lack of artistic ability (i was partially right!)
Rebooting a particular franchises comic book that hasn't changed since it began maybe nice but in the long term there should be slight effects of reboots in the line up of team numbers not so much as a new team but history of that hero could have a major impact if there's a secret or something positive about that team member returning to the team he or she may have they own comics and in said books they may have revisited they past or been rebooted outside the team so if that has a impact on the mainstream of the comics there has be a major reason for a reboot of that universe of heroes including the history of everything in a small way sometimes but it happens nevertheless nothing is for ever thing related to a major event or something mysterious are the source of the other? Hero gets reborn a hero changes gender or goes insane and blood feud through time, zombies involved and hex turn mutation into something different?
Who bets that after King in Black is finished, they will do another relaunch/reboot.
To be fair, Iron Man and Fantastic Four were solid books. Iron Man, in particular, was a lot better than people give it credit for. Essentially making it Iron Man *& The Hulk* was also clever. I still have all the first issues (as many in the 90's did). But IM was the only one I kept reading until it's conclusion.
Heroes Reborn was the least of the Avengers problems at the time. It would take roughly another decade and a successful movie line, for them to finally achieve a standing greater than being regarded as a "Third-Rate Justice League".
Jim Lees fantastic four art in hero's reborn was, well it was fantastic!...
And having hulk be responsible for Tony starks shrapnel/putting on the life support iron man system was awesome.
And the mysterious reveals and reasons for all the so called "Knights of the Atomic round table" all getting powers was a brilliant unfolding too but my favourite memory of reading hero's reborn was hurriedly reopening issue one of fantastic four a year or so in to the story unfolding only to find that yes indeed! SILVER SURFER was very faintly depicted in the the cosmic storm that created the fantastic four and none of us spotted it!
I really enjoyed it 😂👍
I remember that Iron Man design from early Marvel vs Capcom games
The early MVC games used the 90's Modular Armour design. Not the HR one.
but it gave us The Thunderbolts.
former villains turned into good and/or reformed heroes.
Ironically, I am getting the Omnibus when it comes out in 2019!
You’d think DC would pay attention to this and NOT do the New 52 cause a lot of these complaints fits the New 52
I’ve been an X-Men fan all my life, and collected over 3,000 comics.
Onslaught is my least favorite villain of all time. Editorially mandates plot lines are the death-knell for character arcs and engaging storytelling.
Loved Caps head symbol, give liefeld cred on that.
god I love the 90s they had a gaming war, a comic war, and even a SODA WAR!:]
I understand art have it's own context. But 90s comics are bizarre if you look 80s and 2000s
Oh Onslaught, the reason I stopped reading comics for several years
FF was really good.
Every time you show us liefeld cap. I can't help but laught
“eXtreme studios” that’s the most 90s thing I’ve ever seem
Leifeld in a nutshell
Like mountain dew and doritos
Liefeld also had a company named Awesome Comics. What else to add?
Fun fact: Tony Stark's transition from mustache to gotee happened during Heroes Reborn.
mcr but again better seen in better stories.
@@jakeproven256 in your opinion
Heroes Reborn did not fail--it gave us Liefeld's Captain America which forever lives in legend as the most buff and muscular version of the character ever.
All it really did was prove once and for all that Liefeld can't draw the human form with out making them look constipated and bloated. His "art" is a perfect example of not everyone can be an artist... some are just hacks that get lucky...
Rob Liefelds main objective wasn't to show people that he couldn't draw feet, he wanted to show people that feet could be drawn simply and stupidly because they are just cartoons and that anyone who wants to draw cartoons can draw them simple as well or draw them with incredble detail. Simply put: if you give a fuck, you're stupid anyway!
version of the character with the tiniest feet.
Loose Trans Cartooning is an art.
Simplifying design more than drawing grossly out of proportion, slapping your own flattened, grimacing face on every dang character, and hanging pouches from every inch of their body.
@@numbernine5044 Except Liefeld's art wasn't simplified. His characters were full of thousands of unecessary lines and over-complicated details. I don't buy that excuse.
Heroes Reborn parallels one of my favorite storylines ever, Thunderbolts. A group of villains masquerade as heroes in the Avengers absence on Earth in order to get closer to the government and take it over, only for a few of them to realize they like being the good guys.
I think you just spoiled me?
@@hahahahaha288 Eh not really. You find out they're villains in the first issue.
@@laughingwarlock oh ok sorry
It really was the best thing that they made during the reborn series. I was an avengers fan but when I saw the cover of 1st reborn I said nope. Then Thunderbolts was looking pretty good
Now then, that actually does sound like a unique story
Jim Lee was such a better artist compared to his contemporaries it’s not even funny
He wasn't even the best of the Image muppets.
@Mastodon1976 Nah, Silvestri was a far greater artist.
the sad thing about Liefeld is that he is actually not bad when he is not doing all the things we like to poke fun at his art
I think lee is better than mcfarlane in almost every way but mcfarlanes art is suited to a lighter tone than lee
If you hear from Liefeld, he'd maintain that Marc Silvestri is the best out of the Image artists.
So it dont remember who said this but I think it was during the scott snyder and Greg capullo Batman run that someone said something along the lines of: people always want something new and interesting to happen with their favorite characters. They get bored of the same old thing and want a fresh new take on their favorite comic, so you do that. You change a few things and try to introduce new ideas and suddenly people start missing the good old days of comics. Fans suddenly start hating the new and want the old back. So as a writter that is exactly what you do. You introduce something new and change a few things but after a couple of issues you always go back to the original concept and the original story of a character.
z- naqvi this is why I hate when fans complain about anything new in comics like babies. It’s the reason why people outside of comics think that the stereotype of being a comic fan is just being a toxic immature crybaby or “nerd”. I too get tired of the same old stories but that requires that I not go into newer ones with these nostalgia glasses on.
this just gives me more respect for the writers of the early days of wally west as flash, as they stuck to their guns and made wally one of the most beloved flashes ever.
@@sosmooth13If people are like that with Fiction imagine Politics
Kinda ashamed to admit that Heroes Reborn was the thing that brought me into comics. Once I was hooked I learned about the rich backstory of the characters and loved them more
So you're like 40ish
@@topsdaily_productions Yup
It is a good thing to discover something interesting at the end.
...and to progress towards the better is only more agreeable. 🙂
Don’t be ashamed it got you into comics I’m sure you enjoyed it at the time
I started around secret wars which looking back was a huge mess but at the time it was fun
I get why this is even today could be considered a good jump on point. If you are new to marvel comics, you basically get the origin story for 3 of their biggest heroes and of cause one of their most famous teams. It has it flaws. Espeacially when Hulk i think start to discoverer that they are in another dimension and it basically destroys the whole rebooting premise.
Except..Jim Lees Fantastic Four was exceptional. the Namor arc was sheer fun.and His Doctor Doom looked amazing.
Totally agree
What Jim Lee touch always turn to gold. Him good at drawing female characters also helped too.
@Char Aznable ASB&R isn't proof against Jim Lee's ability to create gold with his touch. He has that superpower. It's just that Frank Miller has the omega-level power to create absolute shite out of the safest of popular comic franchises. 🤣
@Char Aznable asb&r is so bad is good, it's a parody of itself. So the premise still holds up.
The artwork was fantastic (even once Lee dropped the art and Brett Booth took over, it was still very good). I don't know about the story. It was literally just the first 50 issues of the book, condensed and distilled into 12 issues. How many people do you know who say "Gosh, that Stan Lee/Jack Kirby run on early Fantastic Four was a real piece of shit. Someone should come along and try to do it right"
Jim Lee's FF sold well and was pretty to look at but it was totally unecessary and was just a year long holding pattern for the book.
Really fantastic video! Loved the way you dove into the reasons and fallout of Heroes Reborn. Maybe the best thing to come out of the whole failed affair was Teen Tony getting erased.
Matt Draper And then one Kurt Busiek was brought in to right that ship and the Avengers. His single biggest accomplishment was reviving Carol Danvers, which he does NOT get enough credit for.
I'd argue that the best thing that came out Heries Reborn was The Thunderbolt's.
@@Popcultureguy3000 Also happened to be penned by Mr. Kurt Busiek, I might add...coincidence?
@@johnathonhaney8291 ... probably not. If there is one thing Kurt Busiek loves, it's good redemption story. And Carol Danvers struggles with addiction was a great redemption character arc and a great way to tie Iron Man, Avengers, and Ms. Marvel together for really memorable soft event crossover.
Yeah, "The Crossing" was sort of the last straw. It had fucked up the Avengers so badly that a reboot seemed like the only logical thing to do.
Thor to Cap: "I see you copied by beard."
Cap to Thor: "I see you copied my Liefield chest." 😂😂😂
😆😆😆
Laughing at your own joke....
@@ThunderJuice 🤣🤣🤣
Ain't no reboot like a Marvel Comics reboot 'cause a Marvel Comics reboot never works.
Captain Comic heroes reborn was the only time they “attempted” I’ll say to 100% reboot but every other time was a soft reboot that’s fine but I’m Marvel has stayed away from total rebooting.
I don't think Heroes Reborn encapsulates 90s comics at all. DC didn't take the Image route in the 90s, and Marvel only went down that road out of desperation for one year. and only on four titles. if anything encapsulates 90s comics it's Death of Superman.
Azbats, Superman dead then blue, Grunge Aquaman, Kyle Rayner... Maybe not the Image routes, but they sure changed a lot.
Yeah but every decade is like that. in the 80s DC killed off Barry Allen, killed off Supergirl, Dick Gayson stopped being Batman's sidekick, and he stopped being Robin and became Nightwing, Lex Luthor turned into a guy in a business suit, and Catwoman was re-imagined as a former prostitute.
I would say from both Marvel and DC it's the Clone Saga and Knightfall
Extreme Justice: Blue Beetle and Booster Gold with armors. So '90s. So ugly.
What about Maximum Carnage? Too long, too many characters, edgy and ultimately inconsequential. I don't think it's even referenced in universe. Even in the event, not much happens between issues.
I liked Jim Lee’s Fantastic Four
As did I.
Fantastic four was so much higher in quality than the others. Iron man was meh and cap is noteworthy for just how fucking batshit insane it was
Busiek's comments at 6:24 are why a "for-realsies this time" Marvel reboot wouldn't go over so well. The blessing and the curse of superhero comics is the massive publishing history that so many of these characters have; within them, you'll find multitudes of possible character interpretations to help launch future stories, a meta-narrative of characterization across different writers that readers delight in puzzling together, and a built-in engine for fan interest and affection.
If you get rid of all that, if you say that everything that readers were attached to didn't matter anymore, it'll turn off fans, and it'll also make it much harder to sell all of those old stories that aren't in continuity anymore (which are usually a gateway into superhero comics). I think everything about the way the New 52 handled continuity (and eventually stepped back a lot of it choices with Rebirth) is proof of this.
I love this video, though! I think another interesting subject could be what the regular Marvel U was doing during Heroes Reborn. A lot of interesting stuff was happening in places like Thunderbolts.
kanye west wing When Kurt Busiek talks about comics, smart people listen. And avid comic superhero readers (shameless plug) really need to give his Astro City series a look.
Feels a lot like what DC did with the New 52 in 2011, then undid with Rebirth
Rebirth didn't undo New 52. It is still the New 52 continuity and universe.
Dude dc is all over the place, definitely no consistency there. I was a dc fan until the 90's where I found marvel was just better. Now though, the only thing marvel has going is how they try to keep things canon from years ago yet they want to keep trying to change it up. That's not working. DC circles around the same 2 for about 80percent of there comics. Comics aren't what they used to be but you also have understand that its hard to keep creating stories for characters that existed for decades.
@@RANDOMXNOTHING0 DC is certainly doing far better than Marvel when it comes to comics currently. Marvel barely had any good issues in last 2-3 years where with the New 52 , then rebirth and now with the DC metal series they are just miles ahead of Marvel.
DC reboots every 2 to 4 years.
venusdoom135 Because real DC fans didn’t like the New 52 as much. DC Rebirth is so much better and we have the pre flashpoint Superman.
I's hard to believe that these characters were ever, sort of, unpopular.
I'm really hoping that whatever Disney does with the X-Men and Fantastic Four, as movies and or streaming shows, in the near future, that it's as good as how they handled the Avengers.
The Avengers in particular were considered a joke for a long time in comics. It took a relaunch under Bendis and the MCU's success for that to change.
As a child of the 90's this are the first version of those heroes I ever read and they still have a special place on My heart, even if they are not very good. And that Iron Man armour is still my favourite to this day
New Coke was actually more of a ploy to get people to be OK with high fructose corn syrup instead of real sugar.
They made a shitty product that would make us miss Coke, waited just long enough to forget, and then brought back a cheaper version of what we wanted.
Actually what they did was change the flavor to be more like Pepsi because Pepsi was kicking their ass in blind taste tests.
They didn't intentionally make a shitty product. They wanted it to succeed.
Corn Syrup was introduced to soft drinks in 1977. By 1985 sugar was out of the drink for close to a decade.
The fact Marvel never rebooted gives them a definite edge against DC Comics. That's extremely visible to anyone that reads the comics and comics forums. The fact continuity matters so much is a huge advantage of Marvel against DC which has been fighting to set things right again since the Flashpoint reboot.
Yeah but marvel has become messy these days it needs to be trimmed
I don't really know, man. The fact that continuity is this super important thing kinda seems like it disincentivises new readers because nobody should feel like they have to do homework to understand a superhero story.
@@ravenfrancis1476 I think those texts Marvel has at the beginning of the issues help a lot.
Paulo Junior I mean, sure, but the average person is probably gonna do a double take when they see Peter Parker as a CEO of a megacorporation (still hate that idea, tbh, he’s supposed to be a hero for the working class) with Parker Industries
@@ravenfrancis1476 but people don't have to understand EVERYTHING. I think writers manage alright to make books new-audience friendly. For example, it's not hard to get "Peter is (now) a CEO", and it isn't required to know how that came to be. But if a reader wants to know how, he can go read that. It's like readers can choose which parts of the story they want to know, being driven by their own curiosity. Besides, you seem to ignore the problems in trying to "solve" that, too. Like how do you do it? With a reboot? Then it adds another thing for people to care about/remember: what's canon or not at any time.
Well do I remember this debacle. And the effects went beyond Marvel. Warren Ellis rightly noted that Lee and Liefeld were "running back to Daddy" and it was the true beginning of the end of the unifed front of the Image founders. A little while after this, Liefeld was kicked out or quit Image (depending on who you ask) and brought suit against the company. He also tried ripping off Roz Kirby to publish the rest of his lame-ass Captain America stories using the Kirby creation Fighting American. Lee, seeing the handwriting on the wall, eventually moved Wildstorm to DC and climbed THEIR corporate ladder to Chief Entertainment Officer. Frank Miller was rightly disillusioned with both over this.
This is so true man, I remember them saying that Todd Mcfarlane went nuts on them in a meeting for doing this.
@@DouglasPendletonintherealms Yeah, well, got no warm fuzzies for Mcfarlane either. Sure, he believed in the big dream of showing up Marvel with Image. But he made plenty of moves that put his own credibility in the shredder. Buying a couple of "poxy baseballs" (Warren Ellis' words) that got devalued in six months, trying to rip off Neil Gaiman and Brian Michael Bendis for their creator's rights that he supposedly was such a big advocate for (I still love how both used Marvel as a way to shoot Mcfarlane the finger), stupidly getting his ass sued again and again by a hockey player because Mcfarlane is too stubborn or brain-dead to change the name of one of Spawn's villains...it all added up after a while. Far as I can tell, only Dale Keown, Jim Valentino and Eric Larsen (no matter how obnoxious I find the latter) were the only ones who stayed true. The rest were too busy playing at being the mogul.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Trust me man you will get no argument from me. Image of the 90's damn near killed comics.
@@DouglasPendletonintherealms Goddamn, thank you SO much for that! While too many of my peers were going gaga (not in the good Lady Gaga kind of way) over these guys, I saw them for what they were. Not even a ringing endorsement from Frank Miller, a guy who I did admire and who published my letters in his letter columns, was enough to get me to ignore the stench wafting up my nostrils.
The biggest tell for me was that, once given the chance to do anything they wanted, they reverted to generic superheroes. More T&A, more blood, more swear words but one issue of David Quinn's Faust outdid them in the shock factor department. All that told me is that their only objection to the then-current system was that THEY weren't the ruthless exploiters in charge. I have no respect for such folk.
Do kindly forgive me that rant. But I've wanted to say that for nearly twenty years.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Their egos was their biggest problem once they left the big two they hardly kept on schedule,they shit out number one issues after number one issues,and the creator like Keith Giffon(sp) who got his book out on time was canceled from image. Eric Larson is the only one of them that stayed true to what Image should have been about. I regret buying a lot of that shit as it is worthless now.
That abysmal rob lieldfield drawing still gives me shivers.
Which one ? Lol 😂
he had gotten worse up until that point, I used to think his X-force comics still look fine, but when he took over this, everything had gotten godawful
Jim Lee Heroes Reborn Fantastic Four was amazing. Definitely something Marvel needs to look into for the movie version.
Ah the 90s a interesting time for comics indeed which lead to the clone saga which to be fair I still maintain the clone saga could have had been good if the marketing team didn’t take control of that storyline and ruined it
It's sad. If the clone saga wasn't so hated we could've seen Ben Reilly in some of the cartoons or maybe some of the games (excluding just as a alternate outfit). I think the only real thing he had adaption wise was 90's Spiderman and I think Ultimate Spiderman.
It was around this time that I gave up reading comics.Besides cheap marketing tricks like killing Superman and Marvel pulling stuff like this.The fact that they're charging around $5 an issue makes it impossible to continue enjoying reading them.
Speaking of history of comics I am just Wondering if you are going to continue on the collapse of the ultimate marvel universe
Oh you bet, it's been on my 'To Do' list for about a year, and I'm planning on making a complete 'Rise and Fall' type video on Ultimate Marvel later this summer.
all right :)
@@OwenLikesComics Are Marvel Comics doing better now then back in the 90s?
@@Power3DHD marvel is doing worse now
I liked the Fantastic Four Heroes Reborn. I like Jim Lee's art and I thought the retelling of the old stories was a good update. I didn't read any of the other ones though, they could have been terrible.
It does make for a good multiverse adventure once in awhile too.
I stopped buying comic books in 1993. Marvel cancelled a lot of its titles, and the exaggerated 90's art style looked terrible to me. I remember passing a newsstand a few years later and seeing that they started all their comics over, and that most suddenly had new number ones. I thought this restart to be a terrible idea, and simply walked on past.
Not gonna lie, i love the fact that unlike DC, Marvel does not reboot. It’s hella easier to follow a single continuity and the back story of each character in Marvel is good enough as it is.
Me too.
Single continuity doesn't work in comics like DC and Marvel over decades worth material inconsistencies, plot holes and retcons. At least with DC it's easy track the era of said character. Marvel have soft rebooting anyway not just in the same way as DC.
I just started reading the Onslaught saga. I skipped through a lot for two reasons. First I just couldn't cope with the very old art style, I didn't start throroughly enjoyign it until the 1990s comics. So I actually went bac a bit after reading the first Onslaught issue. And second is that there is just tons of comics to read and if I try to read everything I won't ever catch up in my lifetime. So I thought jumping up to a point where I can enjoy it properly makes sense since there is still tons of comics left to read. But back to Onslaught. From what I read and heard it was super exciting and captivating. I can't believe something as pathetic as Heroes Reborn came out of such a marvellous saga such as Onslaught.
Tbh it’s kinda cool what DC does with their reboot I get some get annoyed or aren’t fans but tbh the rebirth is really good and if it wasn’t for the New 52 we wouldn’t have the amazing Greg capullo and scott synder run
its interesting to hear someone talk about this. This is what caused me to stop buying comic books as a kid.
The only good thing that came out of Heroes Reborn was The Thunderbolts.
And Jim Lee's Fantastic Four
Marvel...please please please stop with the reboots! I hated Hero’s Reborn, hated Marvel Now, hated All New All Different...and not even going to bother with this new World of Ten (remember, the World of X is not X as in Xavier but X as in Roman numeral 10).
I had been a comic fan from the early 70’s to the mid 90’s, but the 90’s style-over-story way of making comics turned me off completely. I gave comics up and I never looked back, but I’m still nostalgic over the comics from the 70’s and 80’s because the stuff printed today just can’t hold up.
I actually bought issues of these in comic racks in my hometown grocery store and in Wal-Mart toy section. Strange how the availability in these stores of comics faded by early 2000s.
Print media in general declined greatly in the 90's.
And sadly, Heros Reborn is still better than current Marvel.
Rob Leifeild was "relived of his duties ". Bwahaha
This is rather timely, although I am watching this two years late. I just read Rise of the Imperfects on Marvel Unlimited. I read it all. One sitting. Its kind of good, but mostly feels like a treatment of Marvel characters by outsiders. It felt created to reach a certain audience that needs to relate to a more dire situation, a more kick-ass version of the heroes must be delved into. Rise is a comic tie-in to a video game, so it makes sense. Heroes Reborn seems pandering and laughable now that we have the MCU. Back in the 90's comics had not reached the validity of being more than the printed stories of icons passed on by the legendary artists of the 60's thru the 80's. The best I can say for the 90's is we had more gimmicks per month than ever before. I miss Eclipse from the 80's. Marvel and DC had many great arcs, but once you can see a framework of replication, your suspension of disbelief can get compromised. You get fatigued. Imagine how the writers and artists felt. Eclipse had fresh takes and industry veterans and bold newcomers shaping fun characters. Just seeing Rob Liefelds art commit the worse comic atrocities and pales in comparison to the better Cap artists. Thanks for this reminder that when a comic series loses momentum their are bad ideas ready to take its place. Great video.
The X-men is my favorite comic book franchise of all times. So, as a kid, I loved the crossover showdown Marvel made w/ all their heroes against a major "mutant" villain--Onslaught. I liked the way how Onslaught was defeated by "sacrificing" the non-mutant heroes & how Franklin Richards OP ass created a new universe for them (as a clever way of rebooting those less popular characters). Flashforward to today & the MCU made those less popular character blockbuster movie franchises & "household names" for a generation. I can't wait until the X-men debut in the MCU, because people will finally see how bad the "FoX-men" movies were & they'll see how good the X-men are when the person in charge of their movies is a fellow "X-Fan".
Loving your videos Owen. Bit of a trip down memory lane to my teenage years when I was knee deep in Marvel & DC comics! I'd love to see your take on AGE OF APOCALYPSE (1995) as I am currently re reading said series - and I'm enjoying it!
could you talk about the MC2 universe? LOve this video!
Great idea, I'll add it to a list of things to work on. Thanks for watching!
Dude its detective comics 27 not 39 the experts on you tube amaze me like that dude that called r2dr d22r lol
Lol r2dr like you're any better
The problem with the Liefeld Cap pic isn’t the garishness. It’s the complete misunderstanding of anatomy and perspective. Cap’s chest is opening like a fridge door.
But he's not as Swole as Swolo Ren.
Liefeld has the stagnant, most unlikable art in my opinion. He definitely never absorbs Drawing the Marvel Comics way.
The Cap issues have to be some of Liefeld's worst work. A damn shame.
The constant reboots, plus the fact they were $3.99 each, is what drove me out of comics.
3.99 damn i remember getting comics for less than a buck
$4 really ain't that much
@@topsdaily_productions
It is a lot if you have a decent sized pull list
@@stephen8805 fair enough usually I save up alot of money and grab it all in one big batch
I still think this was their way to get people to forget about The Crossing. They did all these radical changes to The Avengers, and probably didn’t want the next year of Avengers stories to be walking them back individually.
A later Avengers Annual even acknowledged this.
I do think marvel does need a reboot but a soft one kind of the what the New 52 was supposed to be for DC just trim the fat brin gthe characters back to their basics and reintroduced some older storylinea as it goes
I recall that the first Iron Man comics I collected were the Heroes Reborn issues, which I found quit enjoyable. Certain developments were weird, though, like the thing with Galactus at the end.
Marvel should do a hard reboot, because nothing has counted anyway since "One More Day".
makes me miss ultimate marvel
RandomGuy15 kind of, but then I remember Ultimatum lmao
@sollyswolly1623 😮
I don't mean to correct u man but Batman's 1st appearance was titled Detective Comics 27 not 39
I loved the premises behind most of the books. I thought Cap, FF, and IM were great premises for movies. Cap being hidden away was a great idea. Iron Man and Hulk having origin stories tied together was novel. Fantastic Four was a real FF film.
Looks like Marvel is back at it again!
OMG Liefeld is horrible..how he ever became a "superstar" i will never understand. I started reading comics in the late 70s when I was a kid so I was in my 20s when this all happened, so I witnessed it. The 90s were rough with Wolverine everywhere, endless variant covers, shoulder pads, number 1s, pouches, Wolverine everywhere, swords, and disproportionate guns.
Interesting. Great breakdown. Though I always considered it in a continuity with Heroes Reborn, MC2, and the start of the Ultimate line.
Those being influenced by the "New Universe" and when you put it all together, it feels less like an isolated oddity but a failed step but one like so many that came before and after.
Lots of great behind the scenes stuff! You really put this this together in a great way.
PS-While Liefeld gets bagged on his take on Cap was pretty cool. He spoke out against the "bomb" and the Government wiped his mind. That's what the Government would do.
So even Rob Leifeld understands that Captain America isn't the government's dog
the polish and tone of this video is head and shoulders above other similar channels with far more subscribers. It's straight and to the point. No awkward overacting in the voice work, no unfunny jokes, just comics. solid formula, great video.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that.
I always thought the ultimate universe was just a respin of the heroes reborn concept...
Lol...liefeld...smh..😂 Lee's work on FF was great. Whilce portacio iron man and FF was awesome. I didn't care for liefelds cap and avengers.🤷🏻♂️
People say marvel isn't diverse enough, but that Avengers: the initiative art at the start of the video is VERY diverse!
I really enjoyed the whole Avengers: Initiative period, and you're right; it really was the first time I'd really noticed how diverse the Marvel universe was becoming.
While I have no problem with MARVEL diversifying its characters, it's not addressing the elephant in the room: the need for more talented female and minority writers and artists actually working behind the scenes.
snakes3425 as long as they aren't assigned books based solely on their race, gender, background or because they have the "correct" political views, and they respect their audience, that's fine. Christopher priest had to keep rejecting books for a couple years because companies kept approaching him with only black characters when he used to write for Spider-Man and Batman.
Yh but all those characters are boring one dimensional archtypes only defined by their race, gender, sexuality and/or religion. Only pre Secret Wars Ms Marvel and Miles Morales.
I don't know about that. What about the Jane Fosters version of Thor. Granted I only picked up the book towards the end of her run as Thor but it felt like she was more than just her gender. Then again I didn't read her early stories.
You're thoughts about Heroes Reborn brought back some memories, thank you for that 😁👍 I was already a collector when it was announced and reading it in Wizard, I really thought it was kind of a cool idea then. In the end I only ordered the Fantastic Four and Iron Man cause I never was into Liefelds artwork. I remember that it was a 12 issue deal from the beginning, so we kind of anticipated that this was just a temporary continuity very early. In the end I did not read any series until its end, though the early Jim Lee art on F4 was gorgeous. But you're right that after the return, a renaissance started especially because the Busiek / George Perez run following was so extraordinarily good. This was kind of the fresh air restart Heroes Reborn failed to be. In the end the event was a good thing for Marvel even though most of it was rather lame... 🤷
I'm sure I'll be an outlier here, but I really love the early-to-mid '90s art style. Not any particular artist, but the way the art was penciled and inked. It was busy-looking, sure, but it was super fun to look at.
I remember Hero's Reborn at the time I was about 10ish years old and was able to buy comics with my pocket money and even though they are looked down on....Age Of Apocalypse, Spider Man/Scarlet Spider Ben Riley and Hero's Reborn *Iron Man and Fantastic Four* are always treasured story's and comics to me as they were my 1st comics I could have bought with my money and not my parents
Man I never heard this reboot. Like I recall mention of it but just something touched upon and never gone into detail.
So bizarre as I grew up in the 90s. It’s like the moment it happened it was over.
As a Marvel kid in the late 70's and 80's I found the mid 90's Marvel near unreadable. I had basically completely switched over to DC Comics. Heroes Reborn brought me back. I could not pass up Jim Lee's Fantastic Four. I loved it.
Several of the minds behind Heroes Reborn (Lee, Liefeld, Harras, Lobdell) went and did something similar 2 decades later for DC (with the help of Geoff Johns and Dan Didio, obviously). New 52 may have been more popular than Heroes Reborn, but it had to be "fixed" a few years later with Rebirth.
Oh don't worry, I'm working on a similar video to this on the New 52. Stay tuned!
Having read Heroes Reborn Captain America and Heroes Reborn Iron Man all I can say is: Reborn Cap is henious, and Reborn Iron Man is terrible
I never understood either the popularity nor the status of Rob Liefeld. He is one of the very worst artists, who has no clue about anatomy or perspective and is lazy to boot. I cannot think of anything positive he has ever done.
At this stage, he has only one claim to fame: Deadpool, which he totally ripped off from Deathstroke The Terminator. And the credit for the writing and characterization on THAT one should go to writer Fabian Niceaza, sense of humor included.
I wonder how long it will be untill marvel comics closes.
uhhhhh....
age of apocalypse wasnt a relaunch.
it was a parallel reality.
that universe HAD an ending.
it was a summer crossover blockbuster.
Heroes Reborn was a parallel reality. Heroes Reborn had an ending.
Heroes Reborn took existing titled and relaunched them to a new #1, as did AOA.
Heroes Reborn lasted 8 months longer than aoa so i guess thats the difference.
Heroes Reborn had a unintentional outcome similar to AZBats. It served to remind ppl what they were missing in the characters...
Geez that artwork at 6:45 on Thor and 6:58 on Captain america, so damn bad. The proportions are so wacky, and their faces so ugly.
These are the main problems IMO:
1. They hired Rob Liefield. Hate to say it, but that was a bad move that was the catalyst for its failure. One could write a book on the reasons why, but his infamous Captain illustration and the fans reactions says it all
2. Marvel has never done a total reboot, but they also dont commit to actually aging their characters in the main universe. Anytime they do they skip forward in time and call it an alternate universe. They only pick n choose when/how certain characters grow. Characters like Charles Xavier and Magneto should be older or dead by now but they can't let go of them
They do it with Nightcrawler aswell, he's supposed to be a veteran X-Men by now but they still keep insisting that he's still 20
It got rid of Teen Tony Stark. That covers a multitude of sins.