Bruckner: Essential Works for Beginners Symphony No. 7 Te Deum Check out reviews and recommendations in the Bruckner Playlist and at ClasssicsToday.com: www.classicstoday.com
My definition of a Pedagogue: someone who sees it as his business to convey the knowledge he possesses and cherishes to someone else he cares for. So Dave, are you one hell of a Pedagogue indeed! That introduction to Bruckner's music for beginners was a masterly act of love and reason perfectly combined. Bruckner is surely smiling approvingly up there :)
Enlightening as ever. Two of my dearest friends are definitely on the autistic spectrum and Bruckner is their favourite composer. He’s also mine but I am merely neurotic.
Speaking as one who has had his problems with Bruckner, your description of his procedures and how to listen to him, how to absorb him, is the best and most illuminating I've ever heard or read. I definitely agree with your choice of entry level works. The 7th and Te Deum are wonderful. I've often thought he was his own worst enemy, followed by his scholarly partisans. I wish someone had told him to finally arrive at one final version of each and heap everything else onto a bonfire and get rid of it.
I read somewhere many years ago that Bruckner is an acquired taste. I think that's a fair appraisal. I came to his music via Symphony 4, though the 7th is just as good for beginners, primarily for the Adagio, which is every bit as exquisite as you described it. Having already been accustomed to Mahler symphonies by the time I discovered Bruckner, length is of no consequence for me. Also, for what it's worth, Mahler held his old friend Bruckner in high esteem, which for me was a pretty good recommendation.
I've been listening to Bruckner since I was a teenager (we're the same age, Dave) and even ploughed my way through Bob Simpson's book on the symphonies. But it's thanks to you that I've finally grapsed the essence of Bruckner's structure and been able to sort out the question of editions - which differences matter and which don't. I'm very grateful.
I love your videos Dave. When I was a kid my parents bought me Karajan’s 60’s Beethoven cycle on vinyl at a yard sale. That became the conductor I knew and the conductor I bought for anything else, because he was easy to find and the safe bet at the time. Then I discovered your videos. I started exploring your recommendations of different composers and conductors/orchestras. Tracking down some of the pieces I couldn’t download. I was so green that I didn’t know how different a piece could sound with a different conductor and orchestra. Composers I never gave a chance, till you and Conductors I never heard of, till you, are now some of my favorites. Just knowing they were out there all these years and I never would’ve known without your videos, makes me wish I found you earlier. I find I don’t listen to Karajan at all anymore. Not to say anything bad about him, just my appreciation for other interpretations are more in the forefront now. I’ve bought a bunch of your books as well. They are fantastic imo. I recently tracked down a copy of the Bruckner 8th by Wand in Lubeck Cathedral you mentioned. It totally blew my mind. The point is I wanted you to know that your videos and books matter to those like me who knew next to nothing about this glorious music. So thank you for all you do. You’ve helped to fill my world with amazing music that I never would’ve discovered without you. Sincerely Michael Carlstrom
I was waiting to see how you approached Bruckner. I think you did splendidly. The “Bruckner problem” is so headache inducing, but his symphonies really are something special. I hope to see Sibelius in this new series. I’ve only heard a few snigglets (the appropriate musical term I believe) and the Wood Nymph, and I think it’s time for me to begin building that part of the collection.
Funny enough, despite the apparent difficulties people have regarding Bruckner , i warmed to him well, when i was new to classical music. First work i heard was the 4th symphony with Otto Klemperer in an old mono recording that lasted around 55 minutes. Very quick indeed. Then he rerecorded it with the Philharmonia, with much improved sound quality. I ventured into his other works. We had a 7th symphony on DG (Lp vinyl) with Jochum and the....BPO. which has to be one of the top recordings of it. My personal favourite is the 6th, we get slightly more condensed and manageable timescales with that....
That was an interesting observation about the balance of the movements of the 7th. I just pulled my Chailly set to load the symphony into my Walkman so I can listen to it while hiking today, and noticed that the first two movements are almost precisely the same length (22:50 and 22:54) and that the last two movements put together are just slightly longer than that (23:23).
My introduction was the 4th Symphony. It took a lifetime to appreciate him, after getting recordings of the other symphonies over the years. He was so formulaic that I would get a new symphony and think I had heard it before.
I am cuckoo for Bruckner, but also recognize that I will never study all the permutations of changes made to his work, so in my mind, whatever Jochum and Wand want to play, in my little brain, that is good enough for me.
Back when I was in a church choir, we would occasionally get unaccompanied motets by Bruckner. They were always great fun, because of the huge and not-at-all subtle dynamic contrasts with which we could amaze the congregation. It was not uncommon to go, in the course of one measure, from _ppp_ to _fff_ , accompanied by the instruction _crescendo poco a poco_ . In one measure?
Yes, last movements are a problem with Bruckner, that's why the Ninth works so well IMO, and may not have been quite so compelling had he completed it.
Although I'm part of the Bruckner's cult members, you're describing his symphonies so well, putting to words what I fell for years since I discovered his symphonies. I would just add that I think his imperfect composing is what makes it so interesting and easy to relate and sense the human part and emotions of the composer when writing the piece.
Bruckner clicked with me in the 7th’s adagio. I had heard some of the other symphonies but didn’t quite get it. I think the secret to Bruckner is that his goal was to make every moment beautiful, not just saving beauty for big moments and doing the necessary business to get there.
I'm really glad you made this video - I heard a well-known (though I've forgotten his name!) musician berating Bruckner's Te Deum - he had no understanding of it, accusing it of being too symphonic rather than sacred music. This, as you have explained here, is daft - Bruckner's feeling for sacred music informed the symphonies; not so much the other way around. Anyway: yes, I think I approach Brucker as a (relatively) normal person - not as a cultist: I am interested in those performances which are not based so much on second, third, fourth, fifth thoughts, but reflect what Bruckner intended to say, not what his interpreters think he ought to have said. And while I'm not one for favourite composers - especially if that limits one's enjoyment of many others - Bruckner is a composer who gave me great pleasure right from the off: I didn't need to ease my way into his world; and having listened to all of his symphonies, plus much of the rest of his output, I can certainly agree with you that he did NOT write the same symphony 9 times; you'd have to be deaf, or seriously prejudiced, to think that. He does have his stop-go episodes - takes you up to a peak, then wanders away for a time: but yes, you get used to that, and it's worth tolerating for the transcendant passages.
Some time ago, I was at a concert: Bruckner 5. Not my favourite tbh, but of course a work with some nice tunes, especially the "Seven Nation Army" theme. But instantly, the crazy Bruckner crowd you talk about started. One man behind me started complaining: 'Oooh, we don't like the 5th! It is awful! We're only here to see the conductor.' After the concert, the same man approached me again. He asked if I liked the music. Of course I did. The man was almost angry about it: Not a single impressive chord in the entire symphony. The 8th is great but the rest is awful. I never understood this crazy Bruckner-anti-Bruckner crowd that goes to the concert but actually doesn't enjoy the music. As if to denigrate Bruckner was a cultural habitus.
Never mix one’s Talmud with one’s Bruckner. The varying version problem has gotten beyond out of control, but nothing can ever alter the power and the glory of the 7th. Definitely the right place to start. I might segue to the 4th next irrespective of the many versions floating around, because it’s just that damn good. Same deal with the 9th. Te Deum arguably should come before even Symphony 7 for all the reasons you mention.
I appreciate your take on Bruckner. He's long been my favorite composer, but I have little sympathy for the cultists. Being a tubist, I came to Bruckner by way of the 4th Symphony (the first three and the Study and the 0 have no tuba). But I'm also a part time bass trombonist, and I have long been partial to the Requiem (strings, organ and trombones and one horn only) and also got to perform the Mass No. 2. My only regret is that I've never had the opportunity to play a performance any of the symphonies. Keep up the interesting videos!
Thanks, Dave, for this "for beginners" series which contains insights very interesting for more seasoned listeners. In my formative years in music, Bruckner was just as absent as Mahler. However, unlike Mahler, this was very much a UK phenomenon (USA too?). His music was already revered in Germany and Austria but we were taught that his music was tediously Teutonic and long winded. Luckily there were a few more open minded critics who were sympathetic to Bruckner's aesthetic and were prepared to show enthusiasm for the then few Bruckner discs which justified it. I can't recall Bruckner's ever having been programmed in the 50s and early 60s by the Liverpool Philharmonic but that probably was just as well because the orchestra lacked the heft and beauty of sound to do justice to the music. My first record of Bruckner was his 8th in Karajan's first Berlin recording and it converted to his music me overnight.
This new series is really helpful. I would really love it if you did a video on Scriabin; I've been wanting to get to know his music for a while, but don't know exactly where or what to begin with.
After the seventh you could go for the fifth by Benjamin Zander, where you get an extra cd in which he explains it by comparing it to the structure of a cathedral. The symphony itself has been played better by others, but it's okay.
Unless you have done it already, I would be fascinating if you did a video offering your won critical views on the curious historical phenomenon of composer pairings e.g. Bach/Handel, Bruckner/Mahler, Debussy/Ravel, Stravinsky/Bartók. Why we do that, and how they compare in modern day’s taste. Maybe a separate video on each pairing? Curious that Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven pretty much stand alone.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, true, but over time I’ve come to see Haydn leaping out of Mozart’s shadow and engaging me more. Thanks for the reminder. And Verdi/Wagner too!
Had my classics today t shirt on--got a lot of comments ! Behind Bruckner's works-----they even named a Boulevard after him in the Bronx!---good info Mr. H!--...JG
Thanks much for this - I have always had a big problem with Bruckner though I have tried over and over. The one I was able to get through was the Fourth but your discussion hopefully helped me in the future. Any version of the Seventh you would recommend for a beginner????.
Once again, many thanks Dave for this superb video. The 7th Symphony for sure!!!! Will have to give the Te Deum another try, based on your remarks - the Jochum recording (I'm not a huge Jochum fan) didn't make a memorable impact on me last time. Years ago I met someone in Tower Records in NYC who was describing Bach as a sort of prophet ("in direct communication with God" as this person put it)...perhaps for Bruckner as well...Composer as Prophet. Came across an interesting point made by Aaron Copland: All of Bruckner’s fast music is slow music played fast, while all of Mendelssohn’s slow music is fast music played slow.
i got into bruckner with his symphony no. 9...i first heard his 4th a long time before i heard the 9th and his 4th at that time just didn't do it for me so i ignored him for a long time until i got into him with the 9th
Who said that? "Popular" is not a meaningful term in this case. And he recorded the work twice with the Concertgebouw (and the second is certainly ONE of the best ever).
Great commentary, but I just can’t do Bruckner. He has exactly one work I love: his 9th Symphony. Nothing else works for me at all. I don’t know why. No doubt it’s my fault. But I’ve tried. I really have.
Bruckner enters a cult status primarily because of the "editions" fiasco surrounding his symphonies, and too much fanatical attachment to various versions. If one can accept Bruckner regardless, awesome brass chorales, wonderful adagio writing, and tremolo string writing evoking lots of mystery, then to me he is just a great composer, no ifs or buts.
I was introduced to his 9th symphony and I didn’t get it. I then listened to the 9th symphony by another conductor and still the same… Years passed and still the same. I think his music is “confused” and “perplexed”. Maybe it’s my lack of understanding but I’m sure doing my best. Still.
I’ll admit that the first few times I heard Bruckner (it was the 7th), I found it boring. If you are a beginner in the world of classical music, you may as well. He’s not the greatest melodist, and his sense of structure is very different. If so, wait a bit and try him again. It may be his adagios, it may be his zippy scherzos, but there will come a time when Bruckner will just grab you. The length of his works won’t be ponderous to you any longer, and his melodies will be fresh and alive. I’d go on, but then Mr. Hurwitz would know I’m in the cult.
My definition of a Pedagogue: someone who sees it as his business to convey the knowledge he possesses and cherishes to someone else he cares for. So Dave, are you one hell of a Pedagogue indeed! That introduction to Bruckner's music for beginners was a masterly act of love and reason perfectly combined. Bruckner is surely smiling approvingly up there :)
Thank you.
Amen, my sentiments exactly.
Hear Ye, Hear Ye!
Enlightening as ever. Two of my dearest friends are definitely on the autistic spectrum and Bruckner is their favourite composer. He’s also mine but I am merely neurotic.
You and your friends are in good company with Bruckner and the rest of his fans.
Speaking as one who has had his problems with Bruckner, your description of his procedures and how to listen to him, how to absorb him, is the best and most illuminating I've ever heard or read. I definitely agree with your choice of entry level works. The 7th and Te Deum are wonderful.
I've often thought he was his own worst enemy, followed by his scholarly partisans. I wish someone had told him to finally arrive at one final version of each and heap everything else onto a bonfire and get rid of it.
My first Bruckner was the 8th Symphony, conducted by Celibadache. Experiencing it was love at first listening.
I read somewhere many years ago that Bruckner is an acquired taste. I think that's a fair appraisal. I came to his music via Symphony 4, though the 7th is just as good for beginners, primarily for the Adagio, which is every bit as exquisite as you described it. Having already been accustomed to Mahler symphonies by the time I discovered Bruckner, length is of no consequence for me. Also, for what it's worth, Mahler held his old friend Bruckner in high esteem, which for me was a pretty good recommendation.
I've been listening to Bruckner since I was a teenager (we're the same age, Dave) and even ploughed my way through Bob Simpson's book on the symphonies. But it's thanks to you that I've finally grapsed the essence of Bruckner's structure and been able to sort out the question of editions - which differences matter and which don't. I'm very grateful.
Thank you!
I love your videos Dave. When I was a kid my parents bought me Karajan’s 60’s Beethoven cycle on vinyl at a yard sale. That became the conductor I knew and the conductor I bought for anything else, because he was easy to find and the safe bet at the time. Then I discovered your videos. I started exploring your recommendations of different composers and conductors/orchestras. Tracking down some of the pieces I couldn’t download. I was so green that I didn’t know how different a piece could sound with a different conductor and orchestra. Composers I never gave a chance, till you and Conductors I never heard of, till you, are now some of my favorites. Just knowing they were out there all these years and I never would’ve known without your videos, makes me wish I found you earlier. I find I don’t listen to Karajan at all anymore. Not to say anything bad about him, just my appreciation for other interpretations are more in the forefront now. I’ve bought a bunch of your books as well. They are fantastic imo. I recently tracked down a copy of the Bruckner 8th by Wand in Lubeck Cathedral you mentioned. It totally blew my mind. The point is I wanted you to know that your videos and books matter to those like me who knew next to nothing about this glorious music. So thank you for all you do. You’ve helped to fill my world with amazing music that I never would’ve discovered without you.
Sincerely
Michael Carlstrom
Thank you very much. You are why I do this!
That's me right there♥️
I was waiting to see how you approached Bruckner. I think you did splendidly. The “Bruckner problem” is so headache inducing, but his symphonies really are something special. I hope to see Sibelius in this new series. I’ve only heard a few snigglets (the appropriate musical term I believe) and the Wood Nymph, and I think it’s time for me to begin building that part of the collection.
Snigglets is, indeed, the authorised term. 😊
Funny enough, despite the apparent difficulties people have regarding Bruckner , i warmed to him well, when i was new to classical music. First work i heard was the 4th symphony with Otto Klemperer in an old mono recording that lasted around 55 minutes. Very quick indeed. Then he rerecorded it with the Philharmonia, with much improved sound quality. I ventured into his other works. We had a 7th symphony on DG (Lp vinyl) with Jochum and the....BPO. which has to be one of the top recordings of it.
My personal favourite is the 6th, we get slightly more condensed and manageable timescales with that....
That was an interesting observation about the balance of the movements of the 7th. I just pulled my Chailly set to load the symphony into my Walkman so I can listen to it while hiking today, and noticed that the first two movements are almost precisely the same length (22:50 and 22:54) and that the last two movements put together are just slightly longer than that (23:23).
David, you described Bruckner’s music perfectly, and I love it! You do have to be in the mood and have the time for it.
My introduction was the 4th Symphony.
It took a lifetime to appreciate him, after getting recordings of the other symphonies over the years.
He was so formulaic that I would get a new symphony and think I had heard it before.
I am cuckoo for Bruckner, but also recognize that I will never study all the permutations of changes made to his work, so in my mind, whatever Jochum and Wand want to play, in my little brain, that is good enough for me.
Back when I was in a church choir, we would occasionally get unaccompanied motets by Bruckner. They were always great fun, because of the huge and not-at-all subtle dynamic contrasts with which we could amaze the congregation. It was not uncommon to go, in the course of one measure, from _ppp_ to _fff_ , accompanied by the instruction _crescendo poco a poco_ . In one measure?
I love the Symphony No. 7! The Scherzo is out of this world!!
Yes, last movements are a problem with Bruckner, that's why the Ninth works so well IMO, and may not have been quite so compelling had he completed it.
Although I'm part of the Bruckner's cult members, you're describing his symphonies so well, putting to words what I fell for years since I discovered his symphonies. I would just add that I think his imperfect composing is what makes it so interesting and easy to relate and sense the human part and emotions of the composer when writing the piece.
Lo mismo me pasó con Bruckner, hasta que me recomendó la mejor interpretación de sus ciclos sinfónicos.
Bruckner clicked with me in the 7th’s adagio. I had heard some of the other symphonies but didn’t quite get it. I think the secret to Bruckner is that his goal was to make every moment beautiful, not just saving beauty for big moments and doing the necessary business to get there.
I'm really glad you made this video - I heard a well-known (though I've forgotten his name!) musician berating Bruckner's Te Deum - he had no understanding of it, accusing it of being too symphonic rather than sacred music. This, as you have explained here, is daft - Bruckner's feeling for sacred music informed the symphonies; not so much the other way around.
Anyway: yes, I think I approach Brucker as a (relatively) normal person - not as a cultist: I am interested in those performances which are not based so much on second, third, fourth, fifth thoughts, but reflect what Bruckner intended to say, not what his interpreters think he ought to have said. And while I'm not one for favourite composers - especially if that limits one's enjoyment of many others - Bruckner is a composer who gave me great pleasure right from the off: I didn't need to ease my way into his world; and having listened to all of his symphonies, plus much of the rest of his output, I can certainly agree with you that he did NOT write the same symphony 9 times; you'd have to be deaf, or seriously prejudiced, to think that.
He does have his stop-go episodes - takes you up to a peak, then wanders away for a time: but yes, you get used to that, and it's worth tolerating for the transcendant passages.
Some time ago, I was at a concert: Bruckner 5. Not my favourite tbh, but of course a work with some nice tunes, especially the "Seven Nation Army" theme. But instantly, the crazy Bruckner crowd you talk about started. One man behind me started complaining: 'Oooh, we don't like the 5th! It is awful! We're only here to see the conductor.' After the concert, the same man approached me again. He asked if I liked the music. Of course I did. The man was almost angry about it: Not a single impressive chord in the entire symphony. The 8th is great but the rest is awful.
I never understood this crazy Bruckner-anti-Bruckner crowd that goes to the concert but actually doesn't enjoy the music. As if to denigrate Bruckner was a cultural habitus.
Thanks Blucher, David thank you so much for your videos, greetings from Italy.
Never mix one’s Talmud with one’s Bruckner. The varying version problem has gotten beyond out of control, but nothing can ever alter the power and the glory of the 7th. Definitely the right place to start. I might segue to the 4th next irrespective of the many versions floating around, because it’s just that damn good. Same deal with the 9th. Te Deum arguably should come before even Symphony 7 for all the reasons you mention.
I appreciate your take on Bruckner. He's long been my favorite composer, but I have little sympathy for the cultists. Being a tubist, I came to Bruckner by way of the 4th Symphony (the first three and the Study and the 0 have no tuba). But I'm also a part time bass trombonist, and I have long been partial to the Requiem (strings, organ and trombones and one horn only) and also got to perform the Mass No. 2. My only regret is that I've never had the opportunity to play a performance any of the symphonies. Keep up the interesting videos!
Thanks, Dave, for this "for beginners" series which contains insights very interesting for more seasoned listeners. In my formative years in music, Bruckner was just as absent as Mahler. However, unlike Mahler, this was very much a UK phenomenon (USA too?). His music was already revered in Germany and Austria but we were taught that his music was tediously Teutonic and long winded. Luckily there were a few more open minded critics who were sympathetic to Bruckner's aesthetic and were prepared to show enthusiasm for the then few Bruckner discs which justified it. I can't recall Bruckner's ever having been programmed in the 50s and early 60s by the Liverpool Philharmonic but that probably was just as well because the orchestra lacked the heft and beauty of sound to do justice to the music. My first record of Bruckner was his 8th in Karajan's first Berlin recording and it converted to his music me overnight.
This new series is really helpful. I would really love it if you did a video on Scriabin; I've been wanting to get to know his music for a while, but don't know exactly where or what to begin with.
After the seventh you could go for the fifth by Benjamin Zander, where you get an extra cd in which he explains it by comparing it to the structure of a cathedral. The symphony itself has been played better by others, but it's okay.
And the discussion is just stupid and totally unhelpful.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It was helpful to me as a way into it.
I like ke the map that comes with it.
Unless you have done it already, I would be fascinating if you did a video offering your won critical views on the curious historical phenomenon of composer pairings e.g. Bach/Handel, Bruckner/Mahler, Debussy/Ravel, Stravinsky/Bartók. Why we do that, and how they compare in modern day’s taste. Maybe a separate video on each pairing? Curious that Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven pretty much stand alone.
No, Haydn/Mozart is a well-known pairing.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, true, but over time I’ve come to see Haydn leaping out of Mozart’s shadow and engaging me more. Thanks for the reminder. And Verdi/Wagner too!
Worth watching just for the 🐴 hahahaha
Never gets old 😂
Had my classics today t shirt on--got a lot of comments ! Behind Bruckner's works-----they even named a Boulevard after him in the Bronx!---good info Mr. H!--...JG
Yay!
Thanks much for this - I have always had a big problem with Bruckner though I have tried over and over. The one I was able to get through was the Fourth but your discussion hopefully helped me in the future. Any version of the Seventh you would recommend for a beginner????.
Watch the video on that particular work to check out reviews on ClassicsToday.com. That should get you going!
Once again, many thanks Dave for this superb video. The 7th Symphony for sure!!!! Will have to give the Te Deum another try, based on your remarks - the Jochum recording (I'm not a huge Jochum fan) didn't make a memorable impact on me last time. Years ago I met someone in Tower Records in NYC who was describing Bach as a sort of prophet ("in direct communication with God" as this person put it)...perhaps for Bruckner as well...Composer as Prophet. Came across an interesting point made by Aaron Copland: All of Bruckner’s fast music is slow music played fast, while all of Mendelssohn’s slow music is fast music played slow.
That is very true...
i got into bruckner with his symphony no. 9...i first heard his 4th a long time before i heard the 9th and his 4th at that time just didn't do it for me so i ignored him for a long time until i got into him with the 9th
What is your opinion on the popular statement that Haitink's with Concertgebauw recordig of the 7th is teh best in history?
Who said that? "Popular" is not a meaningful term in this case. And he recorded the work twice with the Concertgebouw (and the second is certainly ONE of the best ever).
Great commentary, but I just can’t do Bruckner. He has exactly one work I love: his 9th Symphony. Nothing else works for me at all. I don’t know why. No doubt it’s my fault. But I’ve tried. I really have.
Frau Bruckner!!
*horses*
Bruckner enters a cult status primarily because of the "editions" fiasco surrounding his symphonies, and too much fanatical attachment to various versions. If one can accept Bruckner regardless, awesome brass chorales, wonderful adagio writing, and tremolo string writing evoking lots of mystery, then to me he is just a great composer, no ifs or buts.
Bruckner has always been a mystery to me.. But seriously , better Adagios than Mahler or Beethoven?
Why to they have to be better? This isn't a zero sum game. They are among the very greatest.
I was introduced to his 9th symphony and I didn’t get it. I then listened to the 9th symphony by another conductor and still the same… Years passed and still the same. I think his music is “confused” and “perplexed”. Maybe it’s my lack of understanding but I’m sure doing my best. Still.
Dave, you know darn well you are part of the eccentric cult.
I’ll admit that the first few times I heard Bruckner (it was the 7th), I found it boring. If you are a beginner in the world of classical music, you may as well. He’s not the greatest melodist, and his sense of structure is very different.
If so, wait a bit and try him again. It may be his adagios, it may be his zippy scherzos, but there will come a time when Bruckner will just grab you. The length of his works won’t be ponderous to you any longer, and his melodies will be fresh and alive.
I’d go on, but then Mr. Hurwitz would know I’m in the cult.
Oh dear you're going to be bullied now😁😂