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The very word "ludonarrative dissonance" is pretentious and needless jarrgonized. Ludo comes from ludic, which means "play or relating to play" Narrative is just referring to the story. Dissonance is a fancy word meaning disconnect, or lacking harmony. When game play and story aren't harmonious... Anyone can just say that and ensure 99% of people know what is being said instead of ludonarrative dissonance and ensure only 5% of people have a clue. Meaning is more powerful when everyone understands it.
I think one of the best video game stories i have ever experiwnced is Portal 2. It did what God of War did, but much earlier in girst person perspective. The entire game is aware that it's premise -- a young girl doing a series of puzzle challenges-- is absurd, and therefore points to the creator of Aperture laboratories (the location where the game puzzles take place) as bizzare. Portal 2 also tells a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. There's no way I'd watch a silent protagonist solve puzzles for hours as a film, but as a game it's fun. And the only way it is fun is the immediacy of thr first person perspective. When you meet GLaDOS for the first time, you truly feel small and powerless. The POV helps communicate that very well. The later bits of the story become really good, as they allow for the audience to piece together thw history of Aperture laboratories slowly. You move through the history of the location, discovery nods to your own past, as well as the past of GLaDOS. On paper, the plot is pretty boring, but in execution Portal 2 is one of the best video game stories i have experienced. GLaDOS is a big part of that, but the sumbolism of moving up and escaping a large tower to the surface, the complicated relationship between Chel (the main character) and GLaDOS and the beautiful ending make the game amazing. It's hard to explain why the story of Portal 2 is so good to me, but i think it's a great example lf a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. And it works so damn well.
Perhaps it's influenced by my recent replay of P2, but I was thinking about that game the entire time. They even explain why GLaDOS loves making you test so much, through the concept of the cores and "the itch." Absolute perfection in game form.
Pretty much every game mehanic is tied to the story. Almost every action you do makes sense world wise. I say almost because I tried to yeet the blu ball for fun but for pretty understandable reasons I couldn't. There are no cutscenes in this game. It's all dialog and you can get or miss a lot of it depending how fast or the way you play. The story gameplay loop are so intertwined that even the reason why glados still wants to do puzzles after all this time is explained. It's just a perfect blend of story and gameplay. And it never gets stale or takes the controls away from you which felt nice. I think very little games manage to achieve this. Dark souls also to some degree achieves that but it is not as story focused as the Portal series. You kinda have to go out of your way to put it together so maybe it's not even a good example
@@dsvd4727yeah but most people experience the story in souls games by looking them up on TH-cam, or reading the lore entries. At that point, you're just reading a book or listening to someone dump exposition. It's why I always say, people don't actually like how From soft tells stories, they like how other people tell their stories
Another good example of games that incorporate the gameplay into the story really well are Far Cry 3 and 4. The themes of insanity blend really well into what you're doing in the game, since you as the player are basically doing the same thing over and over again because the game is designed that way to play. Not to mention how Jason's insanity is directly tied with how much you level him up. And Far Cry 4 purposely makes the main villain the most relatable character to the player. Both don't actually care about what happens as long as they can entertain themselves
The video seems pretty limited in perspective if I'm honest, with pretty much only talking about super popular games that are the typical idea of a "game with a story". And also not really acknowledging different genres, time periods or writing styles that aren't dependent on cutscenes. Edit: For anyone confused now, he changed the title
sounds like you’d rather watch someone like Jacob Geller or one of many video essayists who push the video runtime into hours. I don’t really expect feature length incredibly in depth analysis from this channel lmao
@coldjam Jacob Geller videos are about the same length and about very specific topics. And if you make a video about such a broad topic I do expect some depth, at the very least a mention.
Agreed. I thought it a little odd to make a whole video about storytelling in videogames without even mentioning narrative, story-driven games. Where's Detroit Become Human? Until Dawn? Life is Strange? Then there are games like Little Nightmares, which has no cutscenes and a very loose "story" (if you can even call it that), but is loved for being "cinematic". The game evokes the feeling of being in the middle of some psychological narrative and gives you all the plot, but leaves the storytelling to you. Perhaps a different experience from true interactive dramas, but worth talking about.
@nosneponsnek I was also thinking stuff like Deus Ex, Kotor and the Witcher which can be pretty dialouge heavy and how choices influence the experience, RPGs and JRPGs too of course. Generally how games tell stories through gameplay and even enviroment in a way you can't really do in movies, not just cutscenes. For me Dark Souls and the like come to mind there. Point and click adventures, visual novels even etc. It's just strange to talk about how story telling in games is weird and then take games that couldn't be further away from the unique way games tell stories. They are not bad games but they are not what I think about when talking about how video games tell stories.
I like how your footage shown on different screens actually look like they're being played on one. Like how the footage on the CRTs have a fish eye effect and the projector has visible folds and the colors are slightly washed out.
@@camwingare you one person or a team? If I want to start making content how can I make it look 1/8th this put together? I’ve got ideas out the wazoo, a few scripts, and a couple of halfway edited videos. Totally different types, I plan to try lots of things to see what I jive with most, but I just feel like I’m editing together videos that would look outdated in 2005. I want to inject some pizazz and detail like you do, not in the same ways of course, but I have no idea how to figure that stuff out. Do I just need to edit a ton of videos for a while before uploading to get some proper experience with that part of the process? It’s hard not to feel wasteful to edit videos I may reform entirely or just toss.
We're a small team, but it's about 70% me. I have a channel manager who talks to sponsors on my behalf and helps brainstorm with title/thumbnail stuff, and my brother does a decent chunk of the editing, but his real speciality is all the fancy compositing effects. When you're first starting off, the trick is to make something that YOU are proud of. It shouldn't matter if nobody watches it, because they probably won't. It took me and my brother a year and a half before we got our first 1,000 subs, and in that time, we were just trying to hit our stride when it came to writing and editing, because neither of us were great at it starting out. As you improve, something that you used to be super proud of might feel embarrassing by comparison, but that's just because you got better at it. Don't compare yourself to other creators, just focus on comparing your current self to your past self. I make it a goal to get better at something with every new upload, which is the only real way to improve. Honestly, my main advice is just make stuff. If you stick with it and push yourself creatively, you WILL get better at it with time.
@@camwing you're awesome - and your content is quality - so That already earned my subscribe - but this comment has earned my share - and word of mouth support.
Gameplay and story aren't as separate as you're treating them, even back on the SNES. It sucks how little the approach was iterated on but look at Final Fantasy 4 and Fire Emblem 5 (both going by the Japanese numberings). The former is a JRPG that saved a class promotion for the MC's overall character arc and fire magic behind the black mage growing past how her village was burned down. The latter is practically built on the concept to the point you can almost follow the story just by looking at chapter level maps while knowing some fire emblem basics.
It’s a good video but it mostly applies to western video games of the last 15 or so years. There’s nothing about Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Disco Elysium or a dozen other examples of superb storytelling which is a little sad.
Final Fantasy 4 is _really_ cool actually because basically all of the characterization is delivered through gameplay. Characters' roles in the party reflect how they probably feel about each other. Rydia starts out as a tagalong kid Cecil has to protect as a memento of his horrible acts, but as you get other characters and she gains levels she quickly becomes the second tankiest party member (so long as you keep her in the back row) _and_ the single best source of damage in the party, _and_ she's a healer too. On top of that, the ability to access the map to figure out where you are is a White Magic spell that she learns, so despite Cecil being a lot older than her and initially being her protector, and despite her being a child, before long _Rydia_ is effectively the adult in the party, as Cecil relies on her for direction and survival. The two become a dynamic duo of sorts, and end up being sort of the lens through which you the player view the other party members who join. Edward shows up and is totally useless at first, right up until you get the Lamia Harp and suddenly he's a vital asset to the party for the brief time he's around. Then Yang joins, and although he's supposed to be a professional fighter his low action speed means he fails to keep up with Cecil's offensive prowess and ability to clear key targets, while his combination of high HP and low Defence makes him a liability for Rydia and Rosa, who have to dedicate a lot of actions and MP to healing him. And then, of course, you lose Rydia, along with everyone else, and although losing everyone else kinda sucks Rydia is by far the loss you feel the most from a gameplay perspective, reflecting that _Cecil_ also misses her the most out of everyone. You get Palom and Porom soon after, but when they first join they more or less add up to slightly less than one Rydia between the two of them, and thanks to the increased difficulty of the monsters in that area of the world (and seemingly very high frequency of Back Attacks in the area) they're harder for Cecil to protect than she ever was. They're basically tailor-made to make you miss Rydia even more. Anyway that's enough rambling from me, I just think it's really cool.
Yeah, there's plenty of examples that go against his discussion of storytelling in games, but I also don't think that's what the video is actually about. The video is mainly about ludonarrative dissonance.
@@SaberRexZealotAnd not just western games, but triple A western games specifically. I can think of many great indie games that are able to tell amazing stories while seamlessly balancing it out with the gameplay.
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Skyward Sword is a great example of the plot vs. story thing. The plot is the most vanilla copy-pasted hero's journey, but it has the absolute best storytelling out of any zelda game.
I must be an outlier here because I did not care about Skywards Sword's story at all, and the gameplay annoyances (mostly Fi) didn't make things any better. There was still a few times where I enjoyed the cutscenes, but in general I found Zelda annoying, Fi aggravating, the Imprisoned irritating, Demise boring, Groose as the best character, and the little plot twist really neat. Overall, I still think Twilight Princess' story to be my favourite of the series, even if the beginning is a little too slow, the ending kinda fumbles a little bit, and Zelda is barely there.
I mean, some of the first video games were text based adventures, usually with good stories! So I would say it depended on the game, even back then. Mother is a good example of a great story even from the NES era. Though, since the medium wasn't a media taken that seriously, and usually viewed as something for children, a lot of the stories weren't really thought out or taken seriously. Though there were certainly many great games with great stories back then!
Yeah, he seems largely unaware of the first 3 or so decades of narrative-heavy and cinematic games. Possibly because they were for the most part not on consoles but on computers.
It's a good thing that the intro part about the evolution of videogame stories was mostly a flourish and not part of the main argument, because the console-centric bubble the author spent their childhood in is rather _painfully_ obvious. The first example of proto-storytelling being Super Mario Bros, released in 1985 - obviously a primitive time in which better storytelling simply wasn't feasible due to stringent technical limitations... unless you remember that 1985 was the year that, for example, Steve Meretzky released A Mind Forever Voyaging. And Magnetic Scrolls came onto the scene with The Pawn. I don't expect anyone to be a fan of interactive fiction, or know much of anything about it. But if you're gonna write a piece (nominally) about the development of videogame storytelling that starts in the 1980s and clearly neither you nor anyone you talked to about this even knows interactive fiction _exists,_ then it _does_ kind of... make your entire essay unnecessarily come across like that meme about "Guy who has only seen The Boss Baby, watching his second movie".
Yeah, this feels like an example of having something more or less specific that you want to talk about, but then presenting is as a much broader topic. At which point it undermines the whole idea.
I have never heared text adventure games described as 'interactive fiction', but I very much agree with this assesment of the video. The displayed literacy of the subjectmatter is so narrow as to render the premise pointless. If you are making this video, you start with Zork!, or at the very least, the work of our lord and saviiur, Lord British, I mean Richard Garriot.
@@egoalter1276 'Interactive fiction' is the modern name for the broader genre, since they've of course evolved over time but people are also still making them in the classic style today - so IF is the umbrella term that includes classic and modern parser-based games but also covers titles such as 80 Days and Sorcery!, while 'text adventures' is the same thing but implies that you're probably talking specifically about the old 1970s/1980s games and specifically the parser-based ones.
@@KillahMate Makes sense, though interactive fiction more calls to mind the CYOA books, than parser based adventure games. Indeed, I'd argue those have more in common interms of design philosophy with sandbox RPGs than they do with visual novels of today.
@gundroog Its so that he could talk about the over discussed ludonarrative dissonance and very cliche examples of it while still having you click the video.
Uncharted doesn't have ludo narrative dissonance. The gameplay says "these deaths don't matter, its just an exiting action beat" and the narrative also says "these deaths don't matter, its just an exiting action beat". It's more an issue of tone and characterisation, mixing a more or less lighthearted adventure with fun exciting murder gameplay inevitably makes all characters involved appear like psychopaths. But that's not dissonance, narrative and gameplay say the same thing, that thing is just kind of weird and uncomfortable if you think about it to much. Indiana Jones actually has the exact same problem.
Exactly. It's like there's a cottage industry of video game essays using uncharted as an example of their misunderstanding of the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A much better example would be any game where you can have custom character customization/choices that contradict the narrative and cutscenes. Something like Fallout is a far bigger offender when the plot may say, "yay you're the hero that saved the city!" meanwhile you murdered every single person in the city except the main story characters. It's the difference between 'dissonance' and 'tone'. Uncharted just has fun blockbuster tone, where violence is trivialized for the sake of the action adventure. It stretches it further than indiana jones because you kill a lot more people, but they have the same tone. I'd even argue Uncharted and other linear story games have some of the strongest ludonarrative connection because you're on rails and can't really do anything the plot doesn't account for. What camwing is arguing is that because nathan is so likeable he shouldn't be a murderer, but that is just not understanding tone. You could make same arguement about Han Solo, Indiana Jones, John McClane.. Basically anyone in the lighthearted action adventure category.
Nathan Drake only kills in self defense but he's done it like ten million times with no apparent effect on his psychological health. He's just a snarky action hero who genuinely loves his friends and family. The game wants us to see a cool dude who only kills when necessary. For me at least the presentation is good enough to wave off the fact that this dude is some sort of god of destruction that lays waste to any that oppose him. It's like a no-kill rule superhero like Batman or Spider-Man. They pull their punches enough to be none lethal but they absolutely dish out some brutal beat downs, especially in every single game either has been in. The story usually fleshes them out so well we'll forgive them for the concussions and permanent spinal damage they've inflicted on the city's criminals. Essentially you have to make a character so likable or relatable we're okay with them disregarding the well being/lives of their enemies.
Well it’s not the exact same problem now is it? The dissonance extends from the fact that Indie has killed less than a hundred people over five movies vs Nathan Drake killing over a thousand people in just the first game. Also I don’t think Indie ever silently engaged in the completely cold blooded mercing of mercenaries as a preemptive attack before any firefight actually begins. The dissonance really kicks in when Nathan (during cutscenes) is far less murderous. At times he even tries to avoid violence! Don’t get me wrong, still love those games and Nathan’s mass murder across the globe is easy to ignore, just like Mario running around smashing poor fucking turtles beneath his work boots. But make no mistake, in Uncharted it IS ludonarrative dissonance.
Too weird and Japanese for westerners to enjoy. Something something muh realism, muh ludonarrative dissonance, toxic masculinity or some pretentious shit.
Coming from someone who grew up playing games where the hardware limitations forced gameplay to always be at the forefront of the experience, it's funny you mentioned MGS. My favourite TH-camr started streaming MGS3 the other day and I couldn't believe how long the intro cutscene was. I was so bored to tears just waiting for the game to start
I am now going to engage in an argument with you, but I will make extremely broad generalizations and use very non-specific wording so that the argument can last for as many comments as possible.
Do you ever have those moments where you overthink what to write, don't really write anything, and then write this instead? BUT REALLY!?! The prequels?!?
@@naheobecause he can’t cover every single good story based game out there. Yes chrono trigger is great. Yes metal gear solid is great. If he did that level of analysis for each great story based game out there the video would be weeks long
@@PhonyT21 this is a video about story in games, yet they completely ignored the entirety of games that care about story in the early era of games. As naheo said, chrono trigger is just a landmark accomplishment in the genre, and one of, if not *the* peak of that era, and it thoroughly dismantles some of the points in the video merely by existing In the early era, there was certainly enough room for stories with similar complexity to modern titles, and an emphasis on dialogue, but games just rarely viewed it as valuable, outside of a specific subgenre, the one defined by this trait, the one this video implies doesn't exist until much later, when there was a noteworthy amount of these as early as the SNES, as displayed by chrono trigger
@ it’s not a comprehensive look into the history of story in games, just an explanation of why games are like that. Uncharted is in no way anywhere near the best story games out there, and it wasn’t supposed to be. It was just supposed to exemplify certain principles he was talking about in the current era of games. He doesn’t deny the existence of good story before the ps3, he just explains why most early games weren’t story heavy, which isn’t the main point of the video, it’s just a side point.
@@noelvalenzarro oh i meant narrative adventure games, point and clicks, walking simulators, visual novels. games like ace attorney and monkey island. zelda is more action-adventure
Or Deus Ex or Kotor etc. I feel like not even acknowledging the many older games seems a bit weird and ignorant when he says older games didn't have good stories. If you make a video about that topic and then point out when games had good stories at all, you do need to have a great understanding of the history of games in general.
In defence of Dr Light's VA in Megaman 8, the English dub for that game, from what I understand, was recorded in Japan using American actors that happened to be based in Japan already, so I imagine they were a bit limited when it came to casting. Also, the same actor went on to voice multiple characters in the pepsiman game and none of said characters have the speech impediment, so I can only guess that it was an intentional choice to have Dr Light speak like this, for whatever reason.
"When did video game stories get good?" On PC around 90's. There were games like I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and Planescape Torment, and they haven't really been surpassed by that many things.
If we define "good" as "somber or didactic atmosphere," then I can't say anything. If we define "good" as "Well-written, tightly-paced, having strong characters with interesting and fun dialogue in a world you wish you could revisit, and possessing an emotional story that shows characters developing into stronger, more loyal people," then I say Bulletstorm is one of the greatest games-cum-narratives of all time.
If you can consider Zork as a game, and the entire genre of Interactive Fiction, then it's the 80's. A Mind Forever Voyaging Trinity Suspended Wishbringer Planetfall Also, there's Visual Novels from Japan, granted, all those things I've mentioned are more akin to books than video games.
@@crestofhonor2349 FF 3 onwards is into 90's already, it's really hard to find games with complex stories in the 80's, an exception is Megami Tensei (it's based on a novel, so it's story is more complex than say wizardry or the the ultimate games).
unfortunately that was just a device to get him to uncharted so he could talk about ludonarrative dissonance. I would like a deep dive into when videogame stories got good though
Wait, I don’t get how Uncharted creates Ludonarrative dissonance. I haven’t played them so I’m just going by what you presented in the video. If the game is trying to evoke the feeling of an action adventure movie in which killing isn’t that big of a deal, and then killing isn’t that big of a deal in the gameplay, then it seems like there’s no dissonance there. The dissonance might have more to do that you play as an adventurer discovering new places while the gameplay is just pretty linear. But that’s just a guess since I haven’t played them
Its really is a case of the gameplay just not meshing with the story as the series progresses. By the time Uncharted 4 comes around, Nate is feeling very bad about treasure hunting and the dangers it puts his family in, but as soon as I get the controls, I'm slinking around every corner looking for shiny trinkets while shooting people in the back of the head. It does feel very awkward and honestly made me wish they'd stick to the theme, and actually let me play a sequel WITHOUT shooting up towns full of mercenaries. (Also a big plot point is Nate almost dying in Uncharted 3 after getting shot, when like...I get shot all the time while playing. It's weird.)
I don't really understand what you were trying to say with Uncharted and ludonarrative dissonance? You say that Nathan Drake killing people is weird because he's a regular guy and this is indicative of the game's "ludonarrative dissonance", yet in the same breath you bring up Indiana Jones whose also supposed to be just a regular guy. Ludonarrative dissonance is when the game's narrative themes directly clash with its gameplay mechanics. Violence isn't foundational to the Uncharted's core narrative, it's just part of it the same way as Indiana Jones movies, like you yourself brought up. It having an interactive element to it doesn't change anything.
Well I think the difference he was trying to illustrate with the Drake/Jones comparison is to say that the killing in Indiana jones isn't really acknowledged or used in a story capacity so it becomes that expected "cost of doing buisness". I agree uncharted toes a similar line but due to the existence of gameplay sections between the cutscenes you have a barrier that separates your actions and the character actions in a way you don't have in movies. Like in U4 where they do actually have drake confronting some moral implications only to go right back to rooty tooty mcshooty mode 10 minutes later.
@@jackdever3181 When I thought about or remembered that section though, it's actually quiet for a decent bit after, and Drake and his brother are clearly rubbing up against significant tensions about the situation. Drake feels he can't abandon the affair, but he does acknowledge some of the situation. Oh, but, just to give a kinda counterpoint. One difference with Drake imo is that Drake, especially in Uncharted 2, guns down WAY more people than Indy ever would. He passes a point of just defense of untangling evil schemes, and he usually starts the story with the motive of being in things for himself. That's why there's some dissonance on his portrayal. Though slightly to its credits, there's a moment in the first game too where it's actually Drake who wants to just give up on the quest but Elena is the one who wants to stick around. It's right before one of the skidoo sections, if you wanna look for it.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity. At best it's just plain old narrative dissonance. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
In the beginning he correctly describes what ludonarrative dissonance is, even if his example with Miles Morales wasn't the strongest. Yet for the rest of the video he conflates ludonarrative dissonance with _narrative_ dissonance and also immersion (cutscenes etc).
This made me think of games like Half-Life where the player is in control (almost) the entire game, even through cinematics, but this approach also comes with its own version of the question "what is canon"? since the player trying to place a physics object on a character as a hat while they're talking is probably not supposed to be canon even if many players attempt this nonetheless. Still, it's interesting seeing how many ways a game can do storytelling, whether it be through completely scripted cinematics, explorable environments, dynamic sound systems...
I think the "hat moment" is something you do to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE narrative integrity. The value here is the ability to role-play. If you couldn't do something stupid, then acting serious wouldn't be as meaningful.
This is a really good video, but I feel like it was very focused on the AAA American game industry, when I’d argue that’s where game Stories are at their weakest. The Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series both have elements where the story and gameplay work together. For FF, you have Cecil’s character arc in IV being reflected in a class change, the VIII cast having memory loss due to using and training with magic, X where you gain more summons as part of a pilgrimage The hero of DQV has a horrible luck stat for most of the game because of all the terrible things that happen to him. VIII’s Hero was the only one unaffected by a curse on his homeland, so he’s naturally immune to curses in game. Heck, III’s Hero is unable to class change like the rest of the party, because who would save the world then? Then there are indie games like OneShot or Undertale, both of which treat the player as an actual entity in its story. Hades’s story is built around Zagreus’s repeated attempts to escape the Underworld Disco Elysium. Just, all of it
That is a very bold statement in which I’d have to disagree their only real competitors would be Japan and maybe France but even then they aren’t putting games out like rockstar, naughty dog, Santa Monica in terms of stories and though japan is debatably bigger in the gaming industry I wouldn’t say their better when it comes to cinematic games
For a video talking about cinematic games I'm surprised you didn't touch on quick time event games like Heavy Rain, Detroit Become Human, The Quarry, and Until Dawn. I know you included a singular clip of Heavy Rain but I feel like there's a TON of discussion you left on the cutting room floor. I understand that Uncharted and God of War were the focus of the vid but it would be nice to see some more examples than just two series.
@@darkartsdabbler2407 I mean, you're making choices and playing them, aren't you? Really, it comes down to what your definition of a video game is. To you they might not be but to others they are. And besides, QTEs are a video game mechanic, are they not? Which would in turn make games like the ones we're talking about video games.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity. At best it's just plain old dissonance in tone. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.** Honestly I think if you want to talk about "good storytelling" in games the most potent examples aren't found in blockbuster action games. Good storytelling in games should born out in gameplay. Currently the mainstream industry is putting serviceable movies into games, with little to no cohesion. My favourite game is Signalis. Its a game where the story it tells could only ever be experienced through a ludic medium, the experience of replaying and becoming more obsessive about it is deeply resonant with its themes. That's storytelling in games. That's ludonarrative consonance. Uncharted arguably doesn't even have a ludonarrative.
This is a really well articulated comment. I would've wanted to post something similar had I not seen this. The misinformation around Ludo narrative dissonance shouldn't be so widespread when Clint Hocking's (flawed) essay which coined the term can be found straight from Wikipedia. To expand on what you said (especially the end portion). Uncharted (and most games in general) tend to just not have gameplay interface in any meaningful way with the story. It's usually gameplay for gameplay itself, which isn't the same as the story told in gameplay actively contradicting the stated themes of a work. It's kind of a letdown to watch a (well produced) long video essay that ultimately puts the Sony Cinematic third person formula on a pedestal. The Last of Us (and God of War 2018 by extension) are derivative of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Team Ico's Games did a lot more to embrace using gameplay itself as a storytelling device.
@@harrybudgeiv349 Thank you. This post sent me down the dusty road toward that, and the original post, and gave me a better understanding of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance." Here's my takeaway: It's a haughty term that just means "game-narrative discomfort," which is muddied by the obfuscating term "ludo." Every time they want to say _game,_ they say _ludo_ instead, and I'm like. . . why? It's like saying _versant_ instead of _cliff face,_ over and over, without ever saying _cliff face_ at all: Yes, you sound very smart, but are you being lucid? Additionally, the article you cited criticizes the original essay for not really having strong definitions, making it easy to coopt the phrase _Ludonarrative Dissonance_ to mean "Anything in the narrative that disagrees with the gameplay"; but wait, isn't that _precisely what the original essay was saying?_ I think the explanation in this video about how the characters act one way in the cut-scenes and then another in the narrative is a perfectly fine way to describe ludonarrative dissonance. The game-narrative connection is in discord. Why is that any different than the game's _philosophy_ being inconsistently portrayed through gameplay? There's nothing about the term that suggests it can't be used in this broader application. Now, when people misuse _cognitive dissonance,_ THAT'S an issue, and I'll tell you why! So. . . .
If I understand you correctly then a game like Ghost of Tsushima does have a ludonarrative. Jin is presented with a dilemma. Remain an honorable samurai, or save his people by using dishonorable tactics. Most players won't encounter much ludonarrative dissonance, as I believe most players will embrace using the dishonorable tactics. However, if a player were to try and remain honorable the whole time, the narrative will create dissonance.
To be frank. You come across as quite snarky in this comment. There is nothing wrong with liking these big budget games. And while there are probably other examples of stories in games. The type of game you mentioned isn't what the video is talking about. I don't know much about Signalis. I have no doubt it's a great game. But I can betcha that the way that game tells it's story is fundamentally different than what Cam was talking about and can't really be compared to these more movie like games. I know your comment was about Ludonarrative Dissonance, how he used the term wrong. And you could very well be right about that. I'm not an expert on the topic myself. But there is no reason to seemingly dunk on the games he's talking about. You just diss Uncharted and God of War as mainstream slop. And that just feels wrong to me.
Ok, but why do videogame stories need to be "cinematic" in order to be considered good stories? Does a story need to be able to be written in a book or maked into a movie to have a good narrative? Personally I think the best storytelling in gaming comes from the few games that manage to break that thought and make a story wich isn't only good, but also unique to the medium. A story that if directly adapted would probably be a bad book or movie but it's still good and it is because is in a videogame. The reason why I say this in the first place is beacuse a typical story is not very compatible with the concept of a game, like you said in the video a cutscene breaks the flow because you go from actually playing the game to just watching a video and the entire point of the medium is for you to be able to control things. That's why I think instead of finding a ways around this problem a better result comes when an entirely new solution is used to try and have no problem to begin with, and while I don't really know what I'm talking about, much less the proper terms to describe this; I think there is a pretty good solution that has been found already, that being another tool throuhg wich advance the "plot", instead of telling a "story" it fits much better for a game to have a "lore" to discover. Probably the most popular example (though not the best IMO) is dark souls, where there is pretty much no story at all, you just appear in a prison without knowing why, escape, and start killing almost every living organism you come across. But if you look closer, at how things look, what characters say and do, and read trough the flavor text for the items you collect, you can start to piece out that there was an actually interesting living, breathing world in the desolated ruin you know traverse, with complex and interesting characters that are part of a bigger story. And if instead of putting this stuff in walls of uninteresting text hidden in a menu wich you wanna spend the less time possible in and instead you use this text to put things like hints for solving puzzles inside and make the game revolve around the players curiosity for reading this text and piecing together the clues it gives so they can advance in the game, you get outer wilds, wich I'd pretty much say has the best story in the history of gaming. And that's not even the only way to do it, you can also integrate the cutscenes into the gameplay itself like undertale, where having a conversation is part of the combat system so when a boss starts talking to you to adavance the story it feels more natural... but those are just the couple examples I could think of right now, I'd say that makes the point, I don't enjoy cinematic games very much 'cause I don't think that kind of storytelling fits the medium but games have plenty of other ways to tell a good story, it's just that most people don't realize.
You're getting there with the lore idea. Its still fictional. Modern board game players have already figured this out. They make it about mechanics/gameplay vs theming. This isn't like "the theme of growing up". I mean any kind of reoccuring or central topic not just related to gameplay. It can be as simple as being themed as sa cooking game. A story then is simply part of the theming just like a fictional world with lore its representing could be. A game with great theming doesn't need to be a great story overall. In theming focused games you can not simply skin it with different theming. While an abstract game like checkers or even chess even if the latter has a war theme, is mostly interchangable and not much is lost. Yume nikki is really artsy and thematically rich with cohesion/integration with its gameplay. But if you're looking for a clear beginning middle end narrative? It doesn't hold up too well and a lot of assumptions start having to be made. If we let ourselves see the merits in this rather than force in storytelling methods of other genres than we can have games where its art and fiction aren't just only serving the gameplay be appreciated.
@@YeepMcyeepers Basically I think "good story" doesn't need to mean it could be a book or a movie and that games that find ways of storytelling that can only be done through gaming tend to have better, more impactful stories and more games should take that path instead of going out of their way to adapt the process from a medium that's so different. I really don't think I can sumarize it more xD
@@diydylana3151 I don't think I fully get what you're saying but yeah, I guess that's another angle to tackle it from. This specially reminds me of psychological horror games, where the messages are mostly portrayed through ambience instead of any clear storyline or objective and It is a great way to do it since videogames are so inmersive.
22:00 I actually think, in that case, the juxtaposition of the gameplay and the story work in tandem with each other. In that scene, Elaine says "if you're done lying to me, you should stop lying to yourself.," which implies that Drake actually loves, if not the violence itself, then the thrill of the fight and the excitement of treasure hunting. it's not something that he can ever distance his heart from. And the over the top action in the gameplay helps to further this.
Cutscenes and gameplay being distinctly separate (as opposed to using immersive camera angles like in GoW) is generally unrelated to ludonarrative dissonance, which is what you seem to imply in the latter parts of the video (e.g. 27:19). That would be old-fashioned immersion, not LD.
I think the point is more that the character that is pulled along by the game's cutscenes and the character that is pulled along by your thumbs tend to feel like two completely different personalities. What's really bridging the gap with GoW is that the game gives plausible responses for the nonsense behavior the character can get up to when in the hands of a player.
@@MizunoKetsuban I agree with what you say, but in the video (27:36) he makes a point about how immersive cutscene angles help against ludonarrative dissonance, so the in-game dialogue isn't what he means. The problem is that while immersive cutscenes are nice, they're not really relevant to the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A game can have low LD while having the most abrupt cutscenes. It feels like he just wanted to glaze GoW because he liked it, but ended up hurting the messaging of the video as a result.
@@awsomebot1 I think you got the wrong timestamp there. You probably meant 27:55. But that is also immediately followed up by "but it goes deeper than that" because it wasn't just about the camera angles.
@@D_3_ I actually meant 27:36 but yeah, thanks for pointing it out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the entire video is wrong. Just that the section from 27:19 to 28:20 (about smooth cutscene transitions) has almost no relation to ludonarrative dissonance. Coincidentally, the stuff he talks about immediately after he says "but it goes deeper than that" is also not related to LD. He's describing how individual kills don't matter in Uncharted but they add to the story in GoW. That's _narrative_ dissonance, and he describes it as a problem with Indiana Jones (a movie!) earlier in the video. Again, not LD. However, the next section about how your son comments on your actions is indeed related to ludonarrative dissonance (gameplay actions are acknowledged narratively to bridge the disconnect), and he's completely right that it elevates GoW a ton.
Honestly a very skewed video with a very clickbaity title. Not talking about any RPGs(Western or JRPG's), games like SH, Resident Evil, MGS, Dark Souls etc. You don't have to talk about all of them of course, but lowering the time spent on Uncharted and diversifying the types of games you talked about.
@@PhonyT21 Originally, the title didn’t specify "Cinematic Games," which led us to assume it was talking about all games in general. It’s clickbaity to claim that "Games have weird storytelling" while focusing solely on cinematic games-essentially interactive movies-without acknowledging games that have unique storytelling that only the medium of video games can achieve.
@ the fact he changed it because people complaining shows that he cares enough about his audience to change something pretty minor. I agree it’s a small issue, but so many people are hating this video unreasonably, even though this guy clearly cares about his work and is trying to
As a fighting gmae player, my favourite game's story includes: - an american drug addict that became a ninja to kick the addiction, then became president of an african nation. - japan being a fucking crater - the first king of the entirety of europe is french and that fought in a 100 year war against a different race, then fell in love and married someone of that race, and had a child with them, now feeling conflicted about the war. - said child being named fucking "sin" and being 5 years old, even though hes fully grown physically, but has a childish personality. He could lose his other eye (did i mention he only has one eye), sense of smell, taste, fertility, get kidney stones and lose a leg for good measure and would still be the heart of the party. He also fights with a flag. - his mother is named "dizzy" and is 10 years old - the second king of the europe nation is german and has hard course survivours guilt, to the point that he fights for you to kill him and literally gets stronger by turning your back on you. - the protagonist is a walking, talking queen reference who cannonkcally likes the band. He also killed his wife 3 times. His wife is the reason japan is a crater - shadow wizard money gang - a woman who fell in love with a big ass key. The key is sentient and the most normal character in the lore. - a dandy vampire - a black dandy philosopher samurai vampire - a brazilian lady with her name literally being "child (f)" in italian. - a pirate cowboy samurai who is also a gambler for good measure, and has a southern accent. - a man who was enslave and made a coup with a friend of his, turning the nation (which is airborne, by the way!) into a democracy, and fears his sacrifices will not be seen by the future generations as a valiant effort, but as a fool's errand, choosing to keep going because of the chance the future is better for the next generation. He's a grappler and his players are called "glue eaters". He also cannonically has drawing as a hobby and hates "pens that break under 3 tons of weight". - a samurai lady who is incredibely masculine and a dancing man who is incredibely fememnine, obviously a "fuck you" to gender roles. - whatever the fuck is going on with faust. My man was a healing god then lost a 6 y/o girl at the operation table and became a serial killer. He then regained his sanity and put a bag over his head in shamed, bowing to heal as many people as possible. In the latest game he relapsed and became depressed again. - a playable fucking bed. A BED. - God, playable. Like the actual ewuivalent of god. He fights with a gun. - a man who punched above his weight when summoning a demon, and was abandoned in a high risk mission by his partner. Later he was killed by the demon who proceeded to posses his body. He was then revived and can feel absolutely nothing, except when hes near his old partner. When he feels something which he doesnt recognize. - that partner uses her hair as a weapon. - an average british man from the 90's who time travelled against his will and if he goes back, he destroys the timeline and kills all the friends he made. In the latest game he reunites with his girlfriend thanks to... - witch who uses a guitar instead of a want and makes sexual innuendos and straight up sexual comments like they are going out of style. - bridget 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️ - a gay man who fights with a pool club and is in a very happy relationship with a fucking robot - A nonbinary madhouse with enough hobbies to make the list look like the library of babel. - a man possesed by his girlfriends ghost. - a man so powerful they had to make him old to be balanced - a kung fu lady who just wants to have a restaurant and it burns down every other week. WELCOME TO GUILTY GEAR
man when you read about GG you just know it from the first sentence lmfao. Quick correction tho, Giovanna doesn't mean child in italian, instead "giovane" does (it means both child and young, but mainly young), but it's the feminine of Giovanni, wich comes from the bible. Because obviusly the comment section needed italian lore lol
The fun part about guilty gear is picking your main for the first time thinking “haha wow this person looks cool” and then learning the absolute insane lore they have attached to them
@@RussianRatiganI'd never heard or Guilty Gear before. Do you think OP's description is too wacky or lacks context or something else? I'm not a fighting game person or much of a gamer at all but they made the characters sound interesting so why is it bad? Just random curiosity.
This is why immersive sims are some of my favorite games! The story of Dishonored and Prey get molded by your actions as a game character and the effects of that story change the situation of the gameplay!
I liked this video. It's a solid video. But how do you go the entire video without bringing up a single roleplaying game? Neither any JRPGs like FFIV or VII, or any western ones? Especially when JRPGs were briefly like the blockbuster narrative genre of their era, just like Uncharted, that seems like a big thing to just not bring up. A Link to the Past isn't equivalent to these, you can't just say they're "plot-games". And it isn't quite like FPSes either, which like you pointed out, are about very high-octane scenarios (HL, System Shock) or have someone who is a solider or something already (halo, deus ex). Even if you are playing a hero, the pace and nature of these stories aren't at all the same and are about pathos. This makes the video seem really weird and limited, and it also genuinely frames God of War (and not the Last of Us, on that note?) as the first real successful attempt at story-telling in games.... and mostly because it all feels plausibly canon. And when the plot of Uncharted is so thin too, because it's like an action movie on purpose, saying you'd rather watch the cutscenes seems strange because there isn't that much there. I'm not trying to be pedantic, all these things just weaken the video a lot.
Yeah, it's weird that the video doesn't mention RPGs at all, which would be an obvious thing to adress. That was one of my first thoughts from watching the first few minutes. This is not even without bringing up text adventure games. This video essay seems very uneducated on the subject as whole, only bringing up the most mainstream games to prove its point and the general misuse of the term "ludonarrative dissonance". The story of Uncharted being intentionally limited is not an example of "ludonarrative dissonance", which is proven by him bringing up Indiana Jones in the first place. I generally enjoy camwing's videos, but this one was not it.
Because he didn't need to. The point was to analyze how a game which had the goal of being like playing a movie could feel more disjointed between narrative and gameplay compared to a game which at a first glance is all about action gameplay. Then discovering why this is the case and why even through 4 games the cohesion of story and in-game actions is still there in one game but not the other. To talk about JRPGs would be to talk about something unrelated to the initial example. god of War and Uncharted are two varieties of apples, but a JRPG is an orange. And finally, hyperbole is a thing. aka, just watching the cutscenes to experience the game.
If we are talking stories and JRPG, the usual suspects are Mother3 3: The illusion of Gaia, and Chrono Trigger. Then for the more deranged people you have Shin Megami Tensei.
There's a bit at the end of Uncharted to where the villain (whose name I'm not gonna try to spell) says "How many of my men have you killed? Just Today!" which is the closest the series has come to actually talking about how much of a murder machine Nate is.
What’s more crazy about the Mario thing is that when Nintendo released it through virtual console the emulator to play the game was significantly bigger than the game itself. Meaning most of your download wasn’t even the game itself
Storytelling in games faces challenges of pacing. Many developers don't understand that a cutscene in an interactive medium is always downtime. No matter how many cool moves and explosions you put into it, the player is resting. This is key to the divide between narrative and gameplay-oriented players, often called casuals and hardcore gamers.
This isn't particularly correct. You're assuming people can't like both the narrative and enjoy challenging gameplay. Or that games can't have both. There are some seriously difficult RPGs out there
Man, Ad reads are getting super entertaining lately. This is really great, I love the lines of "But I'm a HORSE, voiced by a CHILD." and "I don't even HAVE a phone number."
A lot of words have been said but I couldn't get an idea of what the author was trying to convey. The comparison between Uncharted and GOW games is rather unclear for me as well. They do use a different type of camera work but GOW still has the same cutscenes as an Uncharted. You as a player still can lay down a controller and watch a movie especially in the later part of the game. And camera work is not the thing which is responsible for a less amount of narrative dissonance, storytelling context is
Alright, alright, here's your engagement bait comment... Except not about the stated baits, but what I hope was an intentional subtler bait: Did you really need to start on Megaman as an example of how writing was bad? Like sure, Megaman had a stupid story, but it came out 2 years after Ultima IV, which did a morality version of Isaac Asimov's establishment and deconstruction 3 Laws of Robotics, and is the grandpappy of every single art-house game on the market that tries to communicate some deeper meaning. Same with Uncharted having an 'uprecendented amount of character growth for a video game' with decades of story driven games before it that simply weren't as mainstream due to a lack of pewpew mechanics. (Though even within pewpew gaming, Spec Ops: The Line came out 4 years before Uncharted 4 and does just as much if not more in terms of developing its protagonist, while also having the gameplay directly serve that development.) Trying to examine how games are bad at telling a story and looking at games like Mario, Megaman, Uncharted, etc, is like trying to figure out why films are incapable of dealing with deep and important human experiences in a nuanced way by looking at Ace Ventura, Scary Movie and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Mind you, God of War is actually a pretty good example of immersive storytelling via the game responding to your actions, but funnily enough, if we are looking at mainstream gaming, that exact 'the game reacts to your behaivour' was also done, in mainstream gaming... By modders. No, really. For The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, there was a famous mod called Companion Vilja that even Discworld author Sir Terry Pratchett himself got involved with, that entirely revolved around having a talkative companion that can even take charge of the gameplay and effectively turn you into the companion on her travels, rather than just follow you along and comment on the things you do. And it should be noted, this mod wasn't the very first (or best) instance of something like this in gaming either, but it's a pretty noteworthy example of it from all the way back before even Skyrim came out. This mod could exist because this capacity was always there. It's simply that the biggest 'console seller' franchises tended not to focus on these things.
Agreed, it felt a little weird to jump to Uncharted as an example of an early video game whose story was more than just an excuse to facilitate gameplay. In isolation it'd probably be fine as an example, but the whole historical section talking about early data storage limitations on the NES and the jump to the SNES etc kind of frames things in a historical context, but then glosses over many great stories in those earlier generations.
Edit: Hey he changed the title, nice! The title could use some reworking, I think. There are so many cool storytelling things that apply only to videogames and so many different approaches that focusing on just games that try to be cinematic feels reductive in a video called "Videogame storytelling is dumb (I still love it though)". I don't know though, maybe I'm just biased against cinematic games because it feels like they're the only ones that get respect and attention from general audiences because they're like movies. It's like celebrity casting in animated movies, even if it's good it just conveys a lack of respect or confidence in the medium.
Also the first line of the video really doesn't set you up to go from A Link To The Past to Uncharted. The question prompts viewers to think about games like Metal Gear Solid or FFVII or Majora's Mask or countless other classics with beloved stories that came out way before the first Uncharted. Again it sort of implies that videogame stories aren't good or don't count unless they're cinematic.
@@Selrisitai No, it suggests that ALL videogames' storytelling is dumb, which misleading and probably a clickbait strategy to get videogame defenders to, well, click.
@Selrisitai My issue is that the title and the first 3rd(ish) of the video imply that he's going to talk about videogame storytelling in general, and then he spends the rest of it talking about Uncharted and God of War. I actually agree with almost everything he says in this video. It's just that the framing and the setup are mismatched from the actual point of the video.
This is one of the funniest ad reads I've ever seen "Me? But I'm a horse! Voiced by a child!" It's really giving Homestar Runner energy and I'm here for it
imo the most important aspect is about how the story is given to the player: The shift to cinematics instead of pure text totally changed how players experience the story. Like, with Rockstar's missions, you’re *_shown_* character motivation, action, and all the little unspoken nuances through body language and environmental detail-everything that feels like it's a scene in a play. Meanwhile, games like BG3 with dialogue trees give you more *_control_* over your character's intentions, but it's still all about talking your way through the plot. It’s way more information heavy, but it feels less alive because you’re mostly still in a back-and-forth convo format. With Rockstar's style, it feels more immersive and dynamic. But then you kinda lose choice and it's kinda what makes games unique over other mediums.
Mushroom Retainer likely means retainer in the sense that they were a loyal servant. Retainer, a servant, especially one who has worked for a person or family for a long time.
i don't mind when games have the "game dimension" and the "story dimension", as long as it's done well. one of my favorite series of games, the yakuza/like a dragon series, does their storytelling in a fairly funny way. getting into a fight in yakuza is like turning on superpowers. your character can take all the knives and bullets in the world and chug an energy drink to recover from it. but when the fight ends and the cutscene begins, the characters are just as susceptible to mortal wounds as you or i. i remember a specific sidequest in FFXIV, the bozjan resistance questline. as someone who played machinist through those quests, my character had a gun equipped at all times. there was a particular cutscene where a character defects from the resistance and holds someone hostage, but she doesn't stand anywhere near the hostage, so i get to spend that entire cutscene asking "why don't i just shoot her". similar thing happens later in the dawntrail expansion. hell, similar thing happens at the end of fallout 3.
What about Far Cry 3? In the story the main character killing people is actually part of the story and characters in the story even call it out. I think there is a scene of him talking to his friend about how he’s slowing feeling more joy about killing his enemies instead of being afraid like at first. His friend in the scene also shows visible worry for him.
A pretty good mimicry of Greek tragedies being called 2000s edgyness makes me die a little inside...wich is odd because i thought i didn't have a soul left at this point. ( You have been engaged. Hope you appreciate it)
I am! I think Sonic fans should be more positive and affirmative about the things they like, and also push the owners of Sonic to be better towards its treatment towards its creators and makers.
Was that your kid? So cute! I wish I could do something like that with my kiddo. You're awesome and your content is amazing. This ain't much, but thanks! Subbed! - Kanz from Manila
just a small correction at 23:02 kratos didn't kill ares for revenge he killed him bcuz the gods promised him to take away his nightmares of his family kratos didn't even think he could kill ares until athena told him about the box of pandora and at 23:17 he didn't kill the gods bcuz he hates them he killed them bcuz they were standing in his way he was going to kill zeus and they stopped him(he was trying to kill zeus for killing him in gow2)
This one video has very good production quality. I am yet to see your other work but I am already sat, smiling, and subscribed. So happy you got recommended to me.
I think that this is the reason why What Remains of Edith Finch is the peak of interactive in videogames. As there practicly NO cutscenes whereyou should just sit down and watch, you have the option for control each momment at your face and even you can skip part of it . And even better is that it also delivers a strong message about existencialism and whats the value of life. Something that other games use to leave aside into uncontrollable cutscenes where you can set your pace or feel somwthing with the controlls
absolutely love your style of videos. can’t believe i haven’t come across your channel before but wow watching even the ad break brought me back to being a kid watching Jayden animations. (in the sense of the wonder i felt). subscribed and tuning in to whatever comes next
haven't played them in a long time but the "spiderman wouldn't do that so you cant do it" point is exactly what assassin's creed did, and would actively punish you if you kill a civilian too many times while the game tells you to stop doing it (don't quite remember fully since it was so long ago so correct me if i'm wrong) anyway i remember hating that game mechanic as a kid and just wanted to play out my made up scenarios in the game i know theres like reasons related to story mechanics but that doesn't make them fun reasons and i will still hate them
Hey Cam! Great vid :) Some things I think should be mentioned is that some of the first video games were actually just story text only games! Games like: Zork (1977) (Prob the biggest one), Colossal Cave adventure (1976) and a mind forever voyaging (1985). And some text-based games with actual imagery like: Mystery house (1980), Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy (1984), just to name a few, during the MS-DOS and Apple II days there were load and loads more of text-based adventure games! However, you may say, Rosa! (that is my name ;) ) these are all just basically choose your own adventure books! And that's booooooooooooring, because books are boring. Which is a very true and factual fact, but what if I told you that there were adventure games that had a narrative AND GAMEPLAY! Witchcraft! Black magic! You may say, but it is true, low and behold such games as: kings quest (1980) (don't actually play the og kings quest you WILL rip you hair out) , maniac mansion (1987) and my personal favorite Another World (1991). All these games with a real cinematic, or in maniac mansion's case sitcom feel. And I didn't even talk about the Kojima games (I will take EVERY opportunity to talk about Kojima >:) ) that came out, like Snatcher (1988), Policenauts (1994) and of course Metal Gear (1987), Or the swell off very heavy narrative pc-98 games or the famicon detective series. Once again I would like to say that you have done a wonderful job presenting narratives in games, I just thought that this was something that was worth mentioning
I don't think collosal cave had much more story at all. It just seems like it because its text and is thematically integrated. Later text adventures got there. But still. kings quest also doesn't have much going for it.
I think a factor people forget about was that ten years ago, the early 2010s, video games' status as Art was being hotly debated. Studios were pushing for more and more cinematic games because movies were an unquestioned art form by then and they desperately wanted the credibility that came with such a label. It seems silly to us now, but the generation pushing back against it no longer had easy access to even LEARN how to play a video game at this point--so many of us grew up with MUCH simpler controls and consoles and were able to build on these concepts as we grew, and now, and even in the '10s, diving in headfirst with zero exposure is extremely daunting. In 2011, Nintendo was boasting 90+ minutes of cutscenes in their new game, Skyward Sword, the style of which was based on Pointillist and Impressionist paintings--not coincidentally. Nowadays "90 minutes of nonplayable Content" isn't a selling point. Back then, it generated immediate hype. It seemed like everyone wanted games to be movies and only withdrew when the dissonance became too obvious to ignore.
you didn't mention RPGs/JRPGs and I would love to see what you have to say about Undertale. Gameplay and story intergration have never been done finer. the way that even the UI is part of the story.
There's a little indie RPG called In Stars and Time that is honestly probably the best tie of gameplay and story that I've ever experienced. It's one of those rare cases where you simply couldn't tell the story better as a book. At least not with the same level of emotional depth.
The first The Last of Us is also a perfect example of how to tackle the issue of ludonarrative dissonance, (and one which was done by Naughty Dog themselves). Much like Kratos, Joel is a killer, and this aspect of his character is central to the game's story. He's lost much of his humanity in a brutal world where you must kill to survive, and this also shapes the gameplay, showing that other humans can be just as dangerous as the infected. Then TLoU Part II regressed in this regard by forcing you to fight and kill the "good guys" on both sides of the conflict. This creates a disconnect between the characters and the player, undermining the cohesion that was so strong in the first game.
Not really. Those people were just trying to feed their families and defend them from psychopaths like Joel. If anything he should have more empathy than ellie who haven't lived outside this kill or be killed world.
I was shocked by the twist of the "antagonists" of that act because they were 100% justified in every measurable way, and I thought the game was brave for going there, because it's cliche to never meaningfully or directly address the morality of the protagonists like that. Then that's just not how the rest of the story treats it all. TLoU1 failed tons too.
On the topic of Ludonarrative Dissonance, I immediately thought of the Yakuza series. While the side stories and the main storyline contrast VASTLY in terms of tone, somehow they still manage to keep the characterizations consistent. Also while being sort of an "open-world" game where you can do lots of stuff (and I mean LOTS of interactivity), the game still won't let you do things that the main character wouldn't canonically do. Like punching civilians and especially women. It has that restriction yet you still feel like you're the character, that somehow it's still you. It's an amazing balance between characterization and player agency that we don't often see in video games that often. I would actually recommend you to try this game out if you haven't yet.
I absolutely love your humor. Of course I'll leave a comment to support you!! I can tell how much effort went into this (and your other stuff). Your visual storytelling and your script writing is so entertaining!
i didn't get the first title of the video (which disincentivized me to watch it), neither this new one, neither the point of the video. i kind of enjoyed it, but there are so many narrative video games out there that your generalization of the topic and weird intro feel like more engagement bait, just like both of the titles. this video is totally fine as a "ludonarrative dissonance" video, with uncharted and god of war as isolated examples, but instead it presented those games as good and bad examples of "narrative in video games", as a whole, which is not great. i didn't think i would see this kind of bait on a channel i regarded as being great. i know i'm taking the bait by making this comment, but it's being compensated by the decline of my regard for this channel. i'll probably watch less videos anyways
no lie the best production quality on youtube so creative, its a crime you dont get more attention, but we appreciate you maybe if u do more general non videogamey topics, could be cool to experiment
I still don’t see the problem with this often stated ludonarrative dissonance of Uncharted. To me it seems more like a feeling problem than an actual problem, God of War has gameplay parts that are broken by cutscenes, only that you seem to feel like the gameplay is more connected to the plot than in Uncharted but the only difference seems to be in presentation. Its not like you can choose to not kill the enemies in God of War and killing the enemies is as much part of the story as it is in uncharted. The only actual difference is that the character never reflect on killing those enemies in Uncharted but thats a common trope in other media where no one cares if the action hero just mowed down a bunch of bad guys that probably also had families and just had to do this bad guy job to make a living. What I mean is that I can’t really see this as criticism, as then the only good action movies / games would be ones where the main characters is always depressed about the amount of people they needed to kill.
Since the game never has a theme about NOT killing dozens of people, it's not technically ludonarrative dissonance, e.g., "Ain't I, as a gamer, meant to be a pacifist in this game? Why am I killing dozens of people with zero consequences?" Remember, it's not about what the CHARACTER is supposed to or not supposed to do, it's about what you, the player, is supposed to/not supposed to do, in accordance with the game's theme. I guess that's why it's GAME-NARRATIVE dissonance, or maybe you could write it as game/narrative dissonance, e.g., the dissonance between the game and narrative, but I guess that's a problem, right? Because the narrative necessarily involves the character himself, a different individual than the human holding the controller, in most games. Perhaps the term should be game-theme dissonance. "This game is about moral ambiguity, but the game never lets me choose a course of action." This actually came up most starkly in Spec Ops: The Line, where (SPOILERS) you use white phosphorous to kill some bad guys in a pretty horrific way, but it turns out you kill dozens of civilians, even mothers holding children, by mistake. The issue is that the game keeps telling you that you're a bad person for playing this game and doing all these evil things-you the player-but the game fails to give you a choice to use the white phosphorous or not, so a lot of people felt "cheated." You're treating me like I'm a villain, but YOU programmed the game to have no option but to use it. The "get out of jail free card" the developers use is that the game basically tells you TO STOP PLAYING THE GAME, and if you continue playing then you're accepting the villainous things that are being done. The choice isn't whether to shoot someone or not in the game, the choice is whether to play the game at all. That isn't a convincing argument to a lot of people. The point is that the dissonance comes with the game telling you not to be evil, but then, in-game, giving you no choice but to "be evil," albeit by mistake and within the context of a character's story. You're not really "you" in the game, you're the protagonist Martin Walker. Whatever happens is really his story, not yours, but that doesn't change the fact that the game creates ludonarrative dissonance in this way. Hmmm.
Sidenote, I miss video game manuals. I know that they were ever only a necessity and obsolete when actual cutscenes came around, but man, nothing beats opening up that bad boy and reading the plot of the game you're about to play excitedly as mom drives you home. That feeling was awesome
To be honest I don't care how many people a fictional protagonist kills, especially in self defense. Especially especially in a video game that I am playing and controlling the actions for, because the protag didn't kill all those npc's, we did. As a team. And I enjoyed it. If a video game tries to subvert expectations by saying "Look, look, you killed innocents. Don't you feel bad?!?" I feel like I wasted my time playing the game. Spec Ops: The Line does this but also won't let you progress the game or have any fun unless you commit war crimes (which you have to do to continue the game) then it then chastises you about at the end of the game. Where is the fun in that at all? Movie games are stupid, go watch a movie.
This video was amazing and hilarious! By the way, I’m really liking these ad segments cause even if it’s something I won’t be getting, you make them actually worth watching.
hey psst, you should take your personal info off the market if you like, wanted to 👉👈
incogni.com/camwing for 60% off and stuff
you wanna know the SCARIEST part about this video? how LATE it is, ooOOOOOooooooo
😊❤❤❤❤❤😊
I didnt even notice this video was uploaded 45 minutes ago until the sponsor horse part.
Final fantasy 6 and klonoa are good examples of stories done well in early video game history
Bro said thanks for 100k and two days later hes at 150k
Love the content, congrats
for the record have you played the project moon games? Lobotomy Corp, Library of Ruina, and Limbus Company?
wait a second... this is just a video about ludonarrative dissonance disguised as a retrospective about storytelling in videogames
I'VE BEEN FOUND OUT
it always is 🥸
@@camwingHow pretentious
The very word "ludonarrative dissonance" is pretentious and needless jarrgonized.
Ludo comes from ludic, which means "play or relating to play"
Narrative is just referring to the story.
Dissonance is a fancy word meaning disconnect, or lacking harmony.
When game play and story aren't harmonious...
Anyone can just say that and ensure 99% of people know what is being said instead of ludonarrative dissonance and ensure only 5% of people have a clue.
Meaning is more powerful when everyone understands it.
@@honaleri ludonarrative dissonance has been one of the most important terms in game criticism for the past... Whenever it was invented.
I think one of the best video game stories i have ever experiwnced is Portal 2. It did what God of War did, but much earlier in girst person perspective. The entire game is aware that it's premise -- a young girl doing a series of puzzle challenges-- is absurd, and therefore points to the creator of Aperture laboratories (the location where the game puzzles take place) as bizzare.
Portal 2 also tells a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. There's no way I'd watch a silent protagonist solve puzzles for hours as a film, but as a game it's fun. And the only way it is fun is the immediacy of thr first person perspective. When you meet GLaDOS for the first time, you truly feel small and powerless. The POV helps communicate that very well.
The later bits of the story become really good, as they allow for the audience to piece together thw history of Aperture laboratories slowly. You move through the history of the location, discovery nods to your own past, as well as the past of GLaDOS. On paper, the plot is pretty boring, but in execution Portal 2 is one of the best video game stories i have experienced. GLaDOS is a big part of that, but the sumbolism of moving up and escaping a large tower to the surface, the complicated relationship between Chel (the main character) and GLaDOS and the beautiful ending make the game amazing.
It's hard to explain why the story of Portal 2 is so good to me, but i think it's a great example lf a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. And it works so damn well.
Perhaps it's influenced by my recent replay of P2, but I was thinking about that game the entire time. They even explain why GLaDOS loves making you test so much, through the concept of the cores and "the itch."
Absolute perfection in game form.
Pretty much every game mehanic is tied to the story. Almost every action you do makes sense world wise. I say almost because I tried to yeet the blu ball for fun but for pretty understandable reasons I couldn't. There are no cutscenes in this game. It's all dialog and you can get or miss a lot of it depending how fast or the way you play. The story gameplay loop are so intertwined that even the reason why glados still wants to do puzzles after all this time is explained. It's just a perfect blend of story and gameplay. And it never gets stale or takes the controls away from you which felt nice. I think very little games manage to achieve this. Dark souls also to some degree achieves that but it is not as story focused as the Portal series. You kinda have to go out of your way to put it together so maybe it's not even a good example
@@_averageenjoyer_ Dark Souls is actually pretty narrative game, it's just it's narrative is way more meta and diegetic than people realize
@@dsvd4727yeah but most people experience the story in souls games by looking them up on TH-cam, or reading the lore entries. At that point, you're just reading a book or listening to someone dump exposition. It's why I always say, people don't actually like how From soft tells stories, they like how other people tell their stories
Another good example of games that incorporate the gameplay into the story really well are Far Cry 3 and 4. The themes of insanity blend really well into what you're doing in the game, since you as the player are basically doing the same thing over and over again because the game is designed that way to play. Not to mention how Jason's insanity is directly tied with how much you level him up. And Far Cry 4 purposely makes the main villain the most relatable character to the player. Both don't actually care about what happens as long as they can entertain themselves
DOODLEY JUMPSCARE WHAT
Crying Face Emoji
And he just dropped a vid too
first hbommerguy in an up is not jump video, now Doodley in a Camwing video!?
Yeah
Damnit! I spoiled myself scrolling down
The video seems pretty limited in perspective if I'm honest, with pretty much only talking about super popular games that are the typical idea of a "game with a story". And also not really acknowledging different genres, time periods or writing styles that aren't dependent on cutscenes.
Edit: For anyone confused now, he changed the title
Yeah... the video is really well made but the critique itself is pretty amateurish
sounds like you’d rather watch someone like Jacob Geller or one of many video essayists who push the video runtime into hours. I don’t really expect feature length incredibly in depth analysis from this channel lmao
@coldjam Jacob Geller videos are about the same length and about very specific topics. And if you make a video about such a broad topic I do expect some depth, at the very least a mention.
Agreed. I thought it a little odd to make a whole video about storytelling in videogames without even mentioning narrative, story-driven games. Where's Detroit Become Human? Until Dawn? Life is Strange?
Then there are games like Little Nightmares, which has no cutscenes and a very loose "story" (if you can even call it that), but is loved for being "cinematic". The game evokes the feeling of being in the middle of some psychological narrative and gives you all the plot, but leaves the storytelling to you. Perhaps a different experience from true interactive dramas, but worth talking about.
@nosneponsnek I was also thinking stuff like Deus Ex, Kotor and the Witcher which can be pretty dialouge heavy and how choices influence the experience, RPGs and JRPGs too of course. Generally how games tell stories through gameplay and even enviroment in a way you can't really do in movies, not just cutscenes. For me Dark Souls and the like come to mind there. Point and click adventures, visual novels even etc.
It's just strange to talk about how story telling in games is weird and then take games that couldn't be further away from the unique way games tell stories. They are not bad games but they are not what I think about when talking about how video games tell stories.
I like how your footage shown on different screens actually look like they're being played on one. Like how the footage on the CRTs have a fish eye effect and the projector has visible folds and the colors are slightly washed out.
it was a giant pain to get working, so I'm very glad people are noticing
@@camwingare you one person or a team? If I want to start making content how can I make it look 1/8th this put together? I’ve got ideas out the wazoo, a few scripts, and a couple of halfway edited videos. Totally different types, I plan to try lots of things to see what I jive with most, but I just feel like I’m editing together videos that would look outdated in 2005. I want to inject some pizazz and detail like you do, not in the same ways of course, but I have no idea how to figure that stuff out. Do I just need to edit a ton of videos for a while before uploading to get some proper experience with that part of the process? It’s hard not to feel wasteful to edit videos I may reform entirely or just toss.
We're a small team, but it's about 70% me. I have a channel manager who talks to sponsors on my behalf and helps brainstorm with title/thumbnail stuff, and my brother does a decent chunk of the editing, but his real speciality is all the fancy compositing effects.
When you're first starting off, the trick is to make something that YOU are proud of. It shouldn't matter if nobody watches it, because they probably won't. It took me and my brother a year and a half before we got our first 1,000 subs, and in that time, we were just trying to hit our stride when it came to writing and editing, because neither of us were great at it starting out.
As you improve, something that you used to be super proud of might feel embarrassing by comparison, but that's just because you got better at it. Don't compare yourself to other creators, just focus on comparing your current self to your past self. I make it a goal to get better at something with every new upload, which is the only real way to improve.
Honestly, my main advice is just make stuff. If you stick with it and push yourself creatively, you WILL get better at it with time.
@@camwing you're awesome - and your content is quality - so That already earned my subscribe - but this comment has earned my share - and word of mouth support.
My day was ruined by the lack of scanlines on the CRT.
Gameplay and story aren't as separate as you're treating them, even back on the SNES. It sucks how little the approach was iterated on but look at Final Fantasy 4 and Fire Emblem 5 (both going by the Japanese numberings).
The former is a JRPG that saved a class promotion for the MC's overall character arc and fire magic behind the black mage growing past how her village was burned down.
The latter is practically built on the concept to the point you can almost follow the story just by looking at chapter level maps while knowing some fire emblem basics.
It’s a good video but it mostly applies to western video games of the last 15 or so years. There’s nothing about Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Disco Elysium or a dozen other examples of superb storytelling which is a little sad.
at least fire emblem has a bunch of choices that matter, even if not very much
Final Fantasy 4 is _really_ cool actually because basically all of the characterization is delivered through gameplay. Characters' roles in the party reflect how they probably feel about each other. Rydia starts out as a tagalong kid Cecil has to protect as a memento of his horrible acts, but as you get other characters and she gains levels she quickly becomes the second tankiest party member (so long as you keep her in the back row) _and_ the single best source of damage in the party, _and_ she's a healer too. On top of that, the ability to access the map to figure out where you are is a White Magic spell that she learns, so despite Cecil being a lot older than her and initially being her protector, and despite her being a child, before long _Rydia_ is effectively the adult in the party, as Cecil relies on her for direction and survival. The two become a dynamic duo of sorts, and end up being sort of the lens through which you the player view the other party members who join.
Edward shows up and is totally useless at first, right up until you get the Lamia Harp and suddenly he's a vital asset to the party for the brief time he's around.
Then Yang joins, and although he's supposed to be a professional fighter his low action speed means he fails to keep up with Cecil's offensive prowess and ability to clear key targets, while his combination of high HP and low Defence makes him a liability for Rydia and Rosa, who have to dedicate a lot of actions and MP to healing him.
And then, of course, you lose Rydia, along with everyone else, and although losing everyone else kinda sucks Rydia is by far the loss you feel the most from a gameplay perspective, reflecting that _Cecil_ also misses her the most out of everyone. You get Palom and Porom soon after, but when they first join they more or less add up to slightly less than one Rydia between the two of them, and thanks to the increased difficulty of the monsters in that area of the world (and seemingly very high frequency of Back Attacks in the area) they're harder for Cecil to protect than she ever was. They're basically tailor-made to make you miss Rydia even more.
Anyway that's enough rambling from me, I just think it's really cool.
Yeah, there's plenty of examples that go against his discussion of storytelling in games, but I also don't think that's what the video is actually about. The video is mainly about ludonarrative dissonance.
@@SaberRexZealotAnd not just western games, but triple A western games specifically. I can think of many great indie games that are able to tell amazing stories while seamlessly balancing it out with the gameplay.
I definitely [OPPOSITE OPINION] with you on [CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT] regarding [POPULAR MEDIA], because [INCOMPLETE ARGUMENTS BASED ON GUT FEELINGS]. Have a nice [TIME OF DAY].
+1. Also stealing and saving that [UNDEFINED_ARGUMENT] for later justified use.
Thanks, [LITTLE SPONGE]
@@stellanovaluna YoUR'E WELCOME, [HOCHI MAMA]!
@@somerandomguy3298 I LOVE [[Hyperlink Blocked]]
@@somerandomguy3298 I LOVE [[Hyperlink Blocked]]
Yay Sponsorship Horse returns!!! Idk who voices them (as it should be since they're a kiddo) but tell them that I love sticking around during the sponsor segments just because of their performance.
I think it's his son, which is adorable
No I literally burst out laughing hearing the words “data brokers” in a kid’s voice. Impeccable comedic timing tbh
Skyward Sword is a great example of the plot vs. story thing. The plot is the most vanilla copy-pasted hero's journey, but it has the absolute best storytelling out of any zelda game.
One of these days, I'll beat the dungeon fast enough to save her.
I must be an outlier here because I did not care about Skywards Sword's story at all, and the gameplay annoyances (mostly Fi) didn't make things any better.
There was still a few times where I enjoyed the cutscenes, but in general I found Zelda annoying, Fi aggravating, the Imprisoned irritating, Demise boring, Groose as the best character, and the little plot twist really neat.
Overall, I still think Twilight Princess' story to be my favourite of the series, even if the beginning is a little too slow, the ending kinda fumbles a little bit, and Zelda is barely there.
@@thepuzzlemaster64 fi sucks.
I liked the rest of it though
Mind explaining what makes it good? The storytelling felt very similar to other zelda titles afaik
Assuming you don't count environmental storytelling as storytelling.
I mean, some of the first video games were text based adventures, usually with good stories! So I would say it depended on the game, even back then. Mother is a good example of a great story even from the NES era. Though, since the medium wasn't a media taken that seriously, and usually viewed as something for children, a lot of the stories weren't really thought out or taken seriously. Though there were certainly many great games with great stories back then!
Yeah, he seems largely unaware of the first 3 or so decades of narrative-heavy and cinematic games. Possibly because they were for the most part not on consoles but on computers.
Dude that’s genuinely one of the best sponsorships I’ve seen. Sponsorship Horse really pulled it all together. Tell them I said good job ☺️
I watched the sponsored segment and I’m not mad. He did a great job
I might have to watch it again
100% Never seen an add that good👌🏻😂
is horse non binary?
@@alex.g7317 I just have no clue if it’s a girl or a boy (girl I think) but I didn’t want to make anyone mad
It's a good thing that the intro part about the evolution of videogame stories was mostly a flourish and not part of the main argument, because the console-centric bubble the author spent their childhood in is rather _painfully_ obvious. The first example of proto-storytelling being Super Mario Bros, released in 1985 - obviously a primitive time in which better storytelling simply wasn't feasible due to stringent technical limitations... unless you remember that 1985 was the year that, for example, Steve Meretzky released A Mind Forever Voyaging. And Magnetic Scrolls came onto the scene with The Pawn.
I don't expect anyone to be a fan of interactive fiction, or know much of anything about it. But if you're gonna write a piece (nominally) about the development of videogame storytelling that starts in the 1980s and clearly neither you nor anyone you talked to about this even knows interactive fiction _exists,_ then it _does_ kind of... make your entire essay unnecessarily come across like that meme about "Guy who has only seen The Boss Baby, watching his second movie".
Yeah, this feels like an example of having something more or less specific that you want to talk about, but then presenting is as a much broader topic. At which point it undermines the whole idea.
I have never heared text adventure games described as 'interactive fiction', but I very much agree with this assesment of the video.
The displayed literacy of the subjectmatter is so narrow as to render the premise pointless. If you are making this video, you start with Zork!, or at the very least, the work of our lord and saviiur, Lord British, I mean Richard Garriot.
@@egoalter1276 'Interactive fiction' is the modern name for the broader genre, since they've of course evolved over time but people are also still making them in the classic style today - so IF is the umbrella term that includes classic and modern parser-based games but also covers titles such as 80 Days and Sorcery!, while 'text adventures' is the same thing but implies that you're probably talking specifically about the old 1970s/1980s games and specifically the parser-based ones.
@@KillahMate Makes sense, though interactive fiction more calls to mind the CYOA books, than parser based adventure games. Indeed, I'd argue those have more in common interms of design philosophy with sandbox RPGs than they do with visual novels of today.
@gundroog
Its so that he could talk about the over discussed ludonarrative dissonance and very cliche examples of it while still having you click the video.
Barely a Halloween special. Just about choked on my mattress when I saw doodley on the couch.
Uncharted doesn't have ludo narrative dissonance. The gameplay says "these deaths don't matter, its just an exiting action beat" and the narrative also says "these deaths don't matter, its just an exiting action beat". It's more an issue of tone and characterisation, mixing a more or less lighthearted adventure with fun exciting murder gameplay inevitably makes all characters involved appear like psychopaths. But that's not dissonance, narrative and gameplay say the same thing, that thing is just kind of weird and uncomfortable if you think about it to much. Indiana Jones actually has the exact same problem.
Exactly. It's like there's a cottage industry of video game essays using uncharted as an example of their misunderstanding of the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A much better example would be any game where you can have custom character customization/choices that contradict the narrative and cutscenes. Something like Fallout is a far bigger offender when the plot may say, "yay you're the hero that saved the city!" meanwhile you murdered every single person in the city except the main story characters. It's the difference between 'dissonance' and 'tone'. Uncharted just has fun blockbuster tone, where violence is trivialized for the sake of the action adventure. It stretches it further than indiana jones because you kill a lot more people, but they have the same tone. I'd even argue Uncharted and other linear story games have some of the strongest ludonarrative connection because you're on rails and can't really do anything the plot doesn't account for. What camwing is arguing is that because nathan is so likeable he shouldn't be a murderer, but that is just not understanding tone. You could make same arguement about Han Solo, Indiana Jones, John McClane.. Basically anyone in the lighthearted action adventure category.
Nathan Drake only kills in self defense but he's done it like ten million times with no apparent effect on his psychological health. He's just a snarky action hero who genuinely loves his friends and family. The game wants us to see a cool dude who only kills when necessary. For me at least the presentation is good enough to wave off the fact that this dude is some sort of god of destruction that lays waste to any that oppose him. It's like a no-kill rule superhero like Batman or Spider-Man. They pull their punches enough to be none lethal but they absolutely dish out some brutal beat downs, especially in every single game either has been in. The story usually fleshes them out so well we'll forgive them for the concussions and permanent spinal damage they've inflicted on the city's criminals. Essentially you have to make a character so likable or relatable we're okay with them disregarding the well being/lives of their enemies.
Heck, even in the sequels the villains criticize Drake for his killings.
@@Wesmoen
They have zero room to talk
Well it’s not the exact same problem now is it? The dissonance extends from the fact that Indie has killed less than a hundred people over five movies vs Nathan Drake killing over a thousand people in just the first game. Also I don’t think Indie ever silently engaged in the completely cold blooded mercing of mercenaries as a preemptive attack before any firefight actually begins.
The dissonance really kicks in when Nathan (during cutscenes) is far less murderous. At times he even tries to avoid violence!
Don’t get me wrong, still love those games and Nathan’s mass murder across the globe is easy to ignore, just like Mario running around smashing poor fucking turtles beneath his work boots. But make no mistake, in Uncharted it IS ludonarrative dissonance.
Man, this is a perfect Halloween video without anything related to Halloween.
Idk man I was incredibly scared with the sponsor horse
@@Sneaky_Turtle2 Kids are scary I getcha
you also missed the biblically accurate camwing at the end
No mention of Metal Gear Solid? That's when the most amazing storytelling through video games really started.
Second floor basement?
yeah thinking about it, mgs1 was really where games started to have actual stories and characters. It even had voice acting!1!!!1111
Too weird and Japanese for westerners to enjoy. Something something muh realism, muh ludonarrative dissonance, toxic masculinity or some pretentious shit.
It's the only one I don't either skip every cutscene in or get legitimately annoyed that I cant
Coming from someone who grew up playing games where the hardware limitations forced gameplay to always be at the forefront of the experience, it's funny you mentioned MGS. My favourite TH-camr started streaming MGS3 the other day and I couldn't believe how long the intro cutscene was. I was so bored to tears just waiting for the game to start
how DARE you insult the PREQUEL TRILOGY! I am GENUINELY MAD and DEFINITELY NOT leaving a comment for the algorithm. kthxbye
Gross, stay out of this comment section with those OBJECTIVELY WRONG opinions.
I am GENUINELY MAD you LIKE THE PREQUEL TRILOGY and DEFINITELY NOT leaving a reply for the algorithm.
I’M MAD THAT YOU HAVE THOSE OPINIONS AND IM DEFINITELY NOT LEAVING A COMMENT FOR THE ALGORITHM
I am now going to engage in an argument with you, but I will make extremely broad generalizations and use very non-specific wording so that the argument can last for as many comments as possible.
Do you ever have those moments where you overthink what to write, don't really write anything, and then write this instead? BUT REALLY!?! The prequels?!?
peak voice acting 0:39
“That’s a good crestion.”
Bro legit stutters like they really couldn’t have done ONE more take?
@@buffkangaroodogidk if that would help. he can’t control that speech impediment of his.
28:11 ''Stay Behind me''
First thing the kid does is jump infront and get smacked lmaoo
I never noticed that, but now it's making me laugh like an idiot, thank you
@@camwing I guess that's what happens when mistakes get encouraged too much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Realistic, just like in real life.
the fact that chrono trigger, and other good jrps with solid storytelling for the snes aren't brought up in this
Thank you for this. Why make a video about game stories while ignoring story-focused games?
@@naheobecause he can’t cover every single good story based game out there. Yes chrono trigger is great. Yes metal gear solid is great. If he did that level of analysis for each great story based game out there the video would be weeks long
@PhonyT21 Ignoring the JRPG entirely is the complaint, CT just comes up frequently as the cream of the crop. It's a glaring omission!
@@PhonyT21 this is a video about story in games, yet they completely ignored the entirety of games that care about story in the early era of games. As naheo said, chrono trigger is just a landmark accomplishment in the genre, and one of, if not *the* peak of that era, and it thoroughly dismantles some of the points in the video merely by existing
In the early era, there was certainly enough room for stories with similar complexity to modern titles, and an emphasis on dialogue, but games just rarely viewed it as valuable, outside of a specific subgenre, the one defined by this trait, the one this video implies doesn't exist until much later, when there was a noteworthy amount of these as early as the SNES, as displayed by chrono trigger
@ it’s not a comprehensive look into the history of story in games, just an explanation of why games are like that. Uncharted is in no way anywhere near the best story games out there, and it wasn’t supposed to be. It was just supposed to exemplify certain principles he was talking about in the current era of games. He doesn’t deny the existence of good story before the ps3, he just explains why most early games weren’t story heavy, which isn’t the main point of the video, it’s just a side point.
The fact you did an entire video on game storytelling, without mentioning metal gear solid, should be a crime
Or mentioning any narrative adventure games or visual novels. those genres tend to be very narrative focused
Zelda is an adventure game
@@noelvalenzarro oh i meant narrative adventure games, point and clicks, walking simulators, visual novels. games like ace attorney and monkey island. zelda is more action-adventure
@@Gleamiarts This video is already a half hour. He has a day job. There's animated segments. Give him a break, he can't talk about everything.
Or Deus Ex or Kotor etc. I feel like not even acknowledging the many older games seems a bit weird and ignorant when he says older games didn't have good stories. If you make a video about that topic and then point out when games had good stories at all, you do need to have a great understanding of the history of games in general.
In defence of Dr Light's VA in Megaman 8, the English dub for that game, from what I understand, was recorded in Japan using American actors that happened to be based in Japan already, so I imagine they were a bit limited when it came to casting.
Also, the same actor went on to voice multiple characters in the pepsiman game and none of said characters have the speech impediment, so I can only guess that it was an intentional choice to have Dr Light speak like this, for whatever reason.
"When did video game stories get good?"
On PC around 90's. There were games like I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and Planescape Torment, and they haven't really been surpassed by that many things.
If we define "good" as "somber or didactic atmosphere," then I can't say anything. If we define "good" as "Well-written, tightly-paced, having strong characters with interesting and fun dialogue in a world you wish you could revisit, and possessing an emotional story that shows characters developing into stronger, more loyal people," then I say Bulletstorm is one of the greatest games-cum-narratives of all time.
If you can consider Zork as a game, and the entire genre of Interactive Fiction, then it's the 80's.
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Trinity
Suspended
Wishbringer
Planetfall
Also, there's Visual Novels from Japan, granted, all those things I've mentioned are more akin to books than video games.
Not just that. There was also games like Final Fantasy 4 and 6 as being notable for their stories as well as many other jRPGs
@@crestofhonor2349 FF 3 onwards is into 90's already, it's really hard to find games with complex stories in the 80's, an exception is Megami Tensei (it's based on a novel, so it's story is more complex than say wizardry or the the ultimate games).
unfortunately that was just a device to get him to uncharted so he could talk about ludonarrative dissonance. I would like a deep dive into when videogame stories got good though
Wait, I don’t get how Uncharted creates Ludonarrative dissonance. I haven’t played them so I’m just going by what you presented in the video.
If the game is trying to evoke the feeling of an action adventure movie in which killing isn’t that big of a deal, and then killing isn’t that big of a deal in the gameplay, then it seems like there’s no dissonance there. The dissonance might have more to do that you play as an adventurer discovering new places while the gameplay is just pretty linear. But that’s just a guess since I haven’t played them
That's because there is no dissonance, he misunderstood the term, which to be fair, pretty much everyone does.
Its really is a case of the gameplay just not meshing with the story as the series progresses. By the time Uncharted 4 comes around, Nate is feeling very bad about treasure hunting and the dangers it puts his family in, but as soon as I get the controls, I'm slinking around every corner looking for shiny trinkets while shooting people in the back of the head.
It does feel very awkward and honestly made me wish they'd stick to the theme, and actually let me play a sequel WITHOUT shooting up towns full of mercenaries. (Also a big plot point is Nate almost dying in Uncharted 3 after getting shot, when like...I get shot all the time while playing. It's weird.)
I don't really understand what you were trying to say with Uncharted and ludonarrative dissonance? You say that Nathan Drake killing people is weird because he's a regular guy and this is indicative of the game's "ludonarrative dissonance", yet in the same breath you bring up Indiana Jones whose also supposed to be just a regular guy. Ludonarrative dissonance is when the game's narrative themes directly clash with its gameplay mechanics. Violence isn't foundational to the Uncharted's core narrative, it's just part of it the same way as Indiana Jones movies, like you yourself brought up. It having an interactive element to it doesn't change anything.
Well I think the difference he was trying to illustrate with the Drake/Jones comparison is to say that the killing in Indiana jones isn't really acknowledged or used in a story capacity so it becomes that expected "cost of doing buisness". I agree uncharted toes a similar line but due to the existence of gameplay sections between the cutscenes you have a barrier that separates your actions and the character actions in a way you don't have in movies. Like in U4 where they do actually have drake confronting some moral implications only to go right back to rooty tooty mcshooty mode 10 minutes later.
@@jackdever3181 When I thought about or remembered that section though, it's actually quiet for a decent bit after, and Drake and his brother are clearly rubbing up against significant tensions about the situation. Drake feels he can't abandon the affair, but he does acknowledge some of the situation.
Oh, but, just to give a kinda counterpoint. One difference with Drake imo is that Drake, especially in Uncharted 2, guns down WAY more people than Indy ever would. He passes a point of just defense of untangling evil schemes, and he usually starts the story with the motive of being in things for himself. That's why there's some dissonance on his portrayal.
Though slightly to its credits, there's a moment in the first game too where it's actually Drake who wants to just give up on the quest but Elena is the one who wants to stick around. It's right before one of the skidoo sections, if you wanna look for it.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity.
At best it's just plain old narrative dissonance. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
In the beginning he correctly describes what ludonarrative dissonance is, even if his example with Miles Morales wasn't the strongest. Yet for the rest of the video he conflates ludonarrative dissonance with _narrative_ dissonance and also immersion (cutscenes etc).
“When did video game stories get good” May 23rd 1989 with the release of the second Famicom Detective Club game
Yey people who actually know the nes had adventure games
This made me think of games like Half-Life where the player is in control (almost) the entire game, even through cinematics, but this approach also comes with its own version of the question "what is canon"? since the player trying to place a physics object on a character as a hat while they're talking is probably not supposed to be canon even if many players attempt this nonetheless. Still, it's interesting seeing how many ways a game can do storytelling, whether it be through completely scripted cinematics, explorable environments, dynamic sound systems...
The hat moment in games clearly counts, as seen by Team Fortress 2, where the hats are unlockable as part of the Orange Box.
If the NPC reacts, it's canon
@@thacium Fair point, not every player may trigger these interactions but they're purposefully put there
@@sacrificiallamb4568 Oh yeah, I forgot that's a thing, even in Portal 2 there were hats
I think the "hat moment" is something you do to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE narrative integrity. The value here is the ability to role-play.
If you couldn't do something stupid, then acting serious wouldn't be as meaningful.
This is a really good video, but I feel like it was very focused on the AAA American game industry, when I’d argue that’s where game Stories are at their weakest.
The Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series both have elements where the story and gameplay work together.
For FF, you have Cecil’s character arc in IV being reflected in a class change, the VIII cast having memory loss due to using and training with magic, X where you gain more summons as part of a pilgrimage
The hero of DQV has a horrible luck stat for most of the game because of all the terrible things that happen to him. VIII’s Hero was the only one unaffected by a curse on his homeland, so he’s naturally immune to curses in game. Heck, III’s Hero is unable to class change like the rest of the party, because who would save the world then?
Then there are indie games like OneShot or Undertale, both of which treat the player as an actual entity in its story. Hades’s story is built around Zagreus’s repeated attempts to escape the Underworld
Disco Elysium. Just, all of it
That is a very bold statement in which I’d have to disagree their only real competitors would be Japan and maybe France but even then they aren’t putting games out like rockstar, naughty dog, Santa Monica in terms of stories and though japan is debatably bigger in the gaming industry I wouldn’t say their better when it comes to cinematic games
@@keiivfxsorry I don’t get it. What’s up with France ?
i get what you’re saying but it’s definitely preference for you because ff is weak compared to games like red dead 2 or the last of us
13:06 - Not to mention, Indiana Jones was itself inspired by adventure serials from the 1930s that Spielberg and Lucas grew up watching.
For a video talking about cinematic games I'm surprised you didn't touch on quick time event games like Heavy Rain, Detroit Become Human, The Quarry, and Until Dawn. I know you included a singular clip of Heavy Rain but I feel like there's a TON of discussion you left on the cutting room floor. I understand that Uncharted and God of War were the focus of the vid but it would be nice to see some more examples than just two series.
Probably because those aren’t really video games, just lavishly produced quick time events with professional actors
@@darkartsdabbler2407 I mean, you're making choices and playing them, aren't you? Really, it comes down to what your definition of a video game is. To you they might not be but to others they are.
And besides, QTEs are a video game mechanic, are they not? Which would in turn make games like the ones we're talking about video games.
@@darkartsdabbler2407 That was exactly how I felt after having played Uncharted.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity.
At best it's just plain old dissonance in tone. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
Honestly I think if you want to talk about "good storytelling" in games the most potent examples aren't found in blockbuster action games. Good storytelling in games should born out in gameplay. Currently the mainstream industry is putting serviceable movies into games, with little to no cohesion.
My favourite game is Signalis. Its a game where the story it tells could only ever be experienced through a ludic medium, the experience of replaying and becoming more obsessive about it is deeply resonant with its themes. That's storytelling in games. That's ludonarrative consonance. Uncharted arguably doesn't even have a ludonarrative.
This is a really well articulated comment. I would've wanted to post something similar had I not seen this. The misinformation around Ludo narrative dissonance shouldn't be so widespread when Clint Hocking's (flawed) essay which coined the term can be found straight from Wikipedia.
To expand on what you said (especially the end portion). Uncharted (and most games in general) tend to just not have gameplay interface in any meaningful way with the story. It's usually gameplay for gameplay itself, which isn't the same as the story told in gameplay actively contradicting the stated themes of a work.
It's kind of a letdown to watch a (well produced) long video essay that ultimately puts the Sony Cinematic third person formula on a pedestal. The Last of Us (and God of War 2018 by extension) are derivative of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Team Ico's Games did a lot more to embrace using gameplay itself as a storytelling device.
I read a short essay that was better at explaining ludonarrative dissonance. It's called Ludonarrative Dissonance: What it Meant and What it Means
@@harrybudgeiv349 Thank you. This post sent me down the dusty road toward that, and the original post, and gave me a better understanding of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance."
Here's my takeaway: It's a haughty term that just means "game-narrative discomfort," which is muddied by the obfuscating term "ludo."
Every time they want to say _game,_ they say _ludo_ instead, and I'm like. . . why? It's like saying _versant_ instead of _cliff face,_ over and over, without ever saying _cliff face_ at all: Yes, you sound very smart, but are you being lucid?
Additionally, the article you cited criticizes the original essay for not really having strong definitions, making it easy to coopt the phrase _Ludonarrative Dissonance_ to mean "Anything in the narrative that disagrees with the gameplay"; but wait, isn't that _precisely what the original essay was saying?_
I think the explanation in this video about how the characters act one way in the cut-scenes and then another in the narrative is a perfectly fine way to describe ludonarrative dissonance. The game-narrative connection is in discord.
Why is that any different than the game's _philosophy_ being inconsistently portrayed through gameplay? There's nothing about the term that suggests it can't be used in this broader application.
Now, when people misuse _cognitive dissonance,_ THAT'S an issue, and I'll tell you why! So. . . .
If I understand you correctly then a game like Ghost of Tsushima does have a ludonarrative. Jin is presented with a dilemma. Remain an honorable samurai, or save his people by using dishonorable tactics. Most players won't encounter much ludonarrative dissonance, as I believe most players will embrace using the dishonorable tactics.
However, if a player were to try and remain honorable the whole time, the narrative will create dissonance.
To be frank. You come across as quite snarky in this comment. There is nothing wrong with liking these big budget games. And while there are probably other examples of stories in games. The type of game you mentioned isn't what the video is talking about. I don't know much about Signalis. I have no doubt it's a great game. But I can betcha that the way that game tells it's story is fundamentally different than what Cam was talking about and can't really be compared to these more movie like games.
I know your comment was about Ludonarrative Dissonance, how he used the term wrong. And you could very well be right about that. I'm not an expert on the topic myself. But there is no reason to seemingly dunk on the games he's talking about. You just diss Uncharted and God of War as mainstream slop. And that just feels wrong to me.
Ok, but why do videogame stories need to be "cinematic" in order to be considered good stories? Does a story need to be able to be written in a book or maked into a movie to have a good narrative? Personally I think the best storytelling in gaming comes from the few games that manage to break that thought and make a story wich isn't only good, but also unique to the medium. A story that if directly adapted would probably be a bad book or movie but it's still good and it is because is in a videogame. The reason why I say this in the first place is beacuse a typical story is not very compatible with the concept of a game, like you said in the video a cutscene breaks the flow because you go from actually playing the game to just watching a video and the entire point of the medium is for you to be able to control things.
That's why I think instead of finding a ways around this problem a better result comes when an entirely new solution is used to try and have no problem to begin with, and while I don't really know what I'm talking about, much less the proper terms to describe this; I think there is a pretty good solution that has been found already, that being another tool throuhg wich advance the "plot", instead of telling a "story" it fits much better for a game to have a "lore" to discover. Probably the most popular example (though not the best IMO) is dark souls, where there is pretty much no story at all, you just appear in a prison without knowing why, escape, and start killing almost every living organism you come across. But if you look closer, at how things look, what characters say and do, and read trough the flavor text for the items you collect, you can start to piece out that there was an actually interesting living, breathing world in the desolated ruin you know traverse, with complex and interesting characters that are part of a bigger story. And if instead of putting this stuff in walls of uninteresting text hidden in a menu wich you wanna spend the less time possible in and instead you use this text to put things like hints for solving puzzles inside and make the game revolve around the players curiosity for reading this text and piecing together the clues it gives so they can advance in the game, you get outer wilds, wich I'd pretty much say has the best story in the history of gaming. And that's not even the only way to do it, you can also integrate the cutscenes into the gameplay itself like undertale, where having a conversation is part of the combat system so when a boss starts talking to you to adavance the story it feels more natural... but those are just the couple examples I could think of right now, I'd say that makes the point, I don't enjoy cinematic games very much 'cause I don't think that kind of storytelling fits the medium but games have plenty of other ways to tell a good story, it's just that most people don't realize.
I ain't reading allat
You're getting there with the lore idea. Its still fictional.
Modern board game players have already figured this out. They make it about mechanics/gameplay vs theming. This isn't like "the theme of growing up". I mean any kind of reoccuring or central topic not just related to gameplay. It can be as simple as being themed as sa cooking game.
A story then is simply part of the theming just like a fictional world with lore its representing could be. A game with great theming doesn't need to be a great story overall. In theming focused games you can not simply skin it with different theming. While an abstract game like checkers or even chess even if the latter has a war theme, is mostly interchangable and not much is lost.
Yume nikki is really artsy and thematically rich with cohesion/integration with its gameplay. But if you're looking for a clear beginning middle end narrative? It doesn't hold up too well and a lot of assumptions start having to be made.
If we let ourselves see the merits in this rather than force in storytelling methods of other genres than we can have games where its art and fiction aren't just only serving the gameplay be appreciated.
@@YeepMcyeepers Basically I think "good story" doesn't need to mean it could be a book or a movie and that games that find ways of storytelling that can only be done through gaming tend to have better, more impactful stories and more games should take that path instead of going out of their way to adapt the process from a medium that's so different.
I really don't think I can sumarize it more xD
@@diydylana3151 I don't think I fully get what you're saying but yeah, I guess that's another angle to tackle it from. This specially reminds me of psychological horror games, where the messages are mostly portrayed through ambience instead of any clear storyline or objective and It is a great way to do it since videogames are so inmersive.
For the algorithm, you and Doodley deserve more views. Sad that tons of frequent low effort stuff suits the algorithm more
22:00 I actually think, in that case, the juxtaposition of the gameplay and the story work in tandem with each other. In that scene, Elaine says "if you're done lying to me, you should stop lying to yourself.," which implies that Drake actually loves, if not the violence itself, then the thrill of the fight and the excitement of treasure hunting. it's not something that he can ever distance his heart from. And the over the top action in the gameplay helps to further this.
Cutscenes and gameplay being distinctly separate (as opposed to using immersive camera angles like in GoW) is generally unrelated to ludonarrative dissonance, which is what you seem to imply in the latter parts of the video (e.g. 27:19). That would be old-fashioned immersion, not LD.
I think the point is more that the character that is pulled along by the game's cutscenes and the character that is pulled along by your thumbs tend to feel like two completely different personalities. What's really bridging the gap with GoW is that the game gives plausible responses for the nonsense behavior the character can get up to when in the hands of a player.
@@MizunoKetsuban I agree with what you say, but in the video (27:36) he makes a point about how immersive cutscene angles help against ludonarrative dissonance, so the in-game dialogue isn't what he means.
The problem is that while immersive cutscenes are nice, they're not really relevant to the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A game can have low LD while having the most abrupt cutscenes.
It feels like he just wanted to glaze GoW because he liked it, but ended up hurting the messaging of the video as a result.
@@awsomebot1 I think you got the wrong timestamp there. You probably meant 27:55. But that is also immediately followed up by "but it goes deeper than that" because it wasn't just about the camera angles.
@@D_3_ I actually meant 27:36 but yeah, thanks for pointing it out.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the entire video is wrong. Just that the section from 27:19 to 28:20 (about smooth cutscene transitions) has almost no relation to ludonarrative dissonance.
Coincidentally, the stuff he talks about immediately after he says "but it goes deeper than that" is also not related to LD. He's describing how individual kills don't matter in Uncharted but they add to the story in GoW. That's _narrative_ dissonance, and he describes it as a problem with Indiana Jones (a movie!) earlier in the video. Again, not LD.
However, the next section about how your son comments on your actions is indeed related to ludonarrative dissonance (gameplay actions are acknowledged narratively to bridge the disconnect), and he's completely right that it elevates GoW a ton.
Honestly a very skewed video with a very clickbaity title. Not talking about any RPGs(Western or JRPG's), games like SH, Resident Evil, MGS, Dark Souls etc.
You don't have to talk about all of them of course, but lowering the time spent on Uncharted and diversifying the types of games you talked about.
He was using uncharted as more of a case study to talk about what he means
@@PhonyT21 Originally, the title didn’t specify "Cinematic Games," which led us to assume it was talking about all games in general. It’s clickbaity to claim that "Games have weird storytelling" while focusing solely on cinematic games-essentially interactive movies-without acknowledging games that have unique storytelling that only the medium of video games can achieve.
@ in that case, I still think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. If he intended clickbaitiness and views, he wouldn’t have changed it.
@@PhonyT21 He probably changed it because people were complaining. Anyways this isn't something to talk more about
@ the fact he changed it because people complaining shows that he cares enough about his audience to change something pretty minor. I agree it’s a small issue, but so many people are hating this video unreasonably, even though this guy clearly cares about his work and is trying to
Talking about great video game stories from 2007 and not acknowledging bioshock should be a felony.
Bioshock even directly addresses the terrible actions committed by its main protagonist. Honestly missed opportunity
It's funny because the term ludonarrative dissonance directly originates from a blog critiquing bioshock
@@HeyJinxBioshock is THE definition of lnd. It tried something with would you kindly and failed in all other areas
@@AugustRx Actually succeeded in all other areas! Hope this helps!
As a fighting gmae player, my favourite game's story includes:
- an american drug addict that became a ninja to kick the addiction, then became president of an african nation.
- japan being a fucking crater
- the first king of the entirety of europe is french and that fought in a 100 year war against a different race, then fell in love and married someone of that race, and had a child with them, now feeling conflicted about the war.
- said child being named fucking "sin" and being 5 years old, even though hes fully grown physically, but has a childish personality. He could lose his other eye (did i mention he only has one eye), sense of smell, taste, fertility, get kidney stones and lose a leg for good measure and would still be the heart of the party. He also fights with a flag.
- his mother is named "dizzy" and is 10 years old
- the second king of the europe nation is german and has hard course survivours guilt, to the point that he fights for you to kill him and literally gets stronger by turning your back on you.
- the protagonist is a walking, talking queen reference who cannonkcally likes the band. He also killed his wife 3 times. His wife is the reason japan is a crater
- shadow wizard money gang
- a woman who fell in love with a big ass key. The key is sentient and the most normal character in the lore.
- a dandy vampire
- a black dandy philosopher samurai vampire
- a brazilian lady with her name literally being "child (f)" in italian.
- a pirate cowboy samurai who is also a gambler for good measure, and has a southern accent.
- a man who was enslave and made a coup with a friend of his, turning the nation (which is airborne, by the way!) into a democracy, and fears his sacrifices will not be seen by the future generations as a valiant effort, but as a fool's errand, choosing to keep going because of the chance the future is better for the next generation. He's a grappler and his players are called "glue eaters". He also cannonically has drawing as a hobby and hates "pens that break under 3 tons of weight".
- a samurai lady who is incredibely masculine and a dancing man who is incredibely fememnine, obviously a "fuck you" to gender roles.
- whatever the fuck is going on with faust. My man was a healing god then lost a 6 y/o girl at the operation table and became a serial killer. He then regained his sanity and put a bag over his head in shamed, bowing to heal as many people as possible. In the latest game he relapsed and became depressed again.
- a playable fucking bed. A BED.
- God, playable. Like the actual ewuivalent of god. He fights with a gun.
- a man who punched above his weight when summoning a demon, and was abandoned in a high risk mission by his partner. Later he was killed by the demon who proceeded to posses his body. He was then revived and can feel absolutely nothing, except when hes near his old partner. When he feels something which he doesnt recognize.
- that partner uses her hair as a weapon.
- an average british man from the 90's who time travelled against his will and if he goes back, he destroys the timeline and kills all the friends he made. In the latest game he reunites with his girlfriend thanks to...
- witch who uses a guitar instead of a want and makes sexual innuendos and straight up sexual comments like they are going out of style.
- bridget 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
- a gay man who fights with a pool club and is in a very happy relationship with a fucking robot
- A nonbinary madhouse with enough hobbies to make the list look like the library of babel.
- a man possesed by his girlfriends ghost.
- a man so powerful they had to make him old to be balanced
- a kung fu lady who just wants to have a restaurant and it burns down every other week.
WELCOME TO GUILTY GEAR
man when you read about GG you just know it from the first sentence lmfao. Quick correction tho, Giovanna doesn't mean child in italian, instead "giovane" does (it means both child and young, but mainly young), but it's the feminine of Giovanni, wich comes from the bible. Because obviusly the comment section needed italian lore lol
THAT IS BULLSHIT
BLAZING
The fun part about guilty gear is picking your main for the first time thinking “haha wow this person looks cool” and then learning the absolute insane lore they have attached to them
From this description alone, I can tell you are one of the new fans
Definitely, it does not do a good service for this game at all
@@RussianRatiganI'd never heard or Guilty Gear before. Do you think OP's description is too wacky or lacks context or something else?
I'm not a fighting game person or much of a gamer at all but they made the characters sound interesting so why is it bad? Just random curiosity.
Wait until this guy hears about RPGs
Some people argue visual novels are games. Shiiiiit.
This is why immersive sims are some of my favorite games! The story of Dishonored and Prey get molded by your actions as a game character and the effects of that story change the situation of the gameplay!
I liked this video. It's a solid video. But how do you go the entire video without bringing up a single roleplaying game? Neither any JRPGs like FFIV or VII, or any western ones? Especially when JRPGs were briefly like the blockbuster narrative genre of their era, just like Uncharted, that seems like a big thing to just not bring up. A Link to the Past isn't equivalent to these, you can't just say they're "plot-games".
And it isn't quite like FPSes either, which like you pointed out, are about very high-octane scenarios (HL, System Shock) or have someone who is a solider or something already (halo, deus ex). Even if you are playing a hero, the pace and nature of these stories aren't at all the same and are about pathos.
This makes the video seem really weird and limited, and it also genuinely frames God of War (and not the Last of Us, on that note?) as the first real successful attempt at story-telling in games.... and mostly because it all feels plausibly canon. And when the plot of Uncharted is so thin too, because it's like an action movie on purpose, saying you'd rather watch the cutscenes seems strange because there isn't that much there. I'm not trying to be pedantic, all these things just weaken the video a lot.
Yeah, it's weird that the video doesn't mention RPGs at all, which would be an obvious thing to adress. That was one of my first thoughts from watching the first few minutes. This is not even without bringing up text adventure games. This video essay seems very uneducated on the subject as whole, only bringing up the most mainstream games to prove its point and the general misuse of the term "ludonarrative dissonance". The story of Uncharted being intentionally limited is not an example of "ludonarrative dissonance", which is proven by him bringing up Indiana Jones in the first place. I generally enjoy camwing's videos, but this one was not it.
Noone cares about animes, go back to japan.
If I had to guess, he probably hasn’t played any of those lol.
Because he didn't need to.
The point was to analyze how a game which had the goal of being like playing a movie could feel more disjointed between narrative and gameplay compared to a game which at a first glance is all about action gameplay.
Then discovering why this is the case and why even through 4 games the cohesion of story and in-game actions is still there in one game but not the other.
To talk about JRPGs would be to talk about something unrelated to the initial example. god of War and Uncharted are two varieties of apples, but a JRPG is an orange.
And finally, hyperbole is a thing. aka, just watching the cutscenes to experience the game.
If we are talking stories and JRPG, the usual suspects are Mother3 3: The illusion of Gaia, and Chrono Trigger.
Then for the more deranged people you have Shin Megami Tensei.
There's a bit at the end of Uncharted to where the villain (whose name I'm not gonna try to spell) says "How many of my men have you killed? Just Today!" which is the closest the series has come to actually talking about how much of a murder machine Nate is.
What’s more crazy about the Mario thing is that when Nintendo released it through virtual console the emulator to play the game was significantly bigger than the game itself. Meaning most of your download wasn’t even the game itself
Storytelling in games faces challenges of pacing. Many developers don't understand that a cutscene in an interactive medium is always downtime. No matter how many cool moves and explosions you put into it, the player is resting. This is key to the divide between narrative and gameplay-oriented players, often called casuals and hardcore gamers.
This isn't particularly correct. You're assuming people can't like both the narrative and enjoy challenging gameplay. Or that games can't have both. There are some seriously difficult RPGs out there
Getting on the speech impediment was wrong idc how you slice it.
Man, Ad reads are getting super entertaining lately. This is really great, I love the lines of "But I'm a HORSE, voiced by a CHILD." and "I don't even HAVE a phone number."
A lot of words have been said but I couldn't get an idea of what the author was trying to convey.
The comparison between Uncharted and GOW games is rather unclear for me as well. They do use a different type of camera work but GOW still has the same cutscenes as an Uncharted. You as a player still can lay down a controller and watch a movie especially in the later part of the game. And camera work is not the thing which is responsible for a less amount of narrative dissonance, storytelling context is
The camera has nothing to do with anything. It's just ironic how the game without ludo narrative dissonance doesn't cut between the two
Alright, alright, here's your engagement bait comment... Except not about the stated baits, but what I hope was an intentional subtler bait:
Did you really need to start on Megaman as an example of how writing was bad? Like sure, Megaman had a stupid story, but it came out 2 years after Ultima IV, which did a morality version of Isaac Asimov's establishment and deconstruction 3 Laws of Robotics, and is the grandpappy of every single art-house game on the market that tries to communicate some deeper meaning. Same with Uncharted having an 'uprecendented amount of character growth for a video game' with decades of story driven games before it that simply weren't as mainstream due to a lack of pewpew mechanics. (Though even within pewpew gaming, Spec Ops: The Line came out 4 years before Uncharted 4 and does just as much if not more in terms of developing its protagonist, while also having the gameplay directly serve that development.)
Trying to examine how games are bad at telling a story and looking at games like Mario, Megaman, Uncharted, etc, is like trying to figure out why films are incapable of dealing with deep and important human experiences in a nuanced way by looking at Ace Ventura, Scary Movie and the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Mind you, God of War is actually a pretty good example of immersive storytelling via the game responding to your actions, but funnily enough, if we are looking at mainstream gaming, that exact 'the game reacts to your behaivour' was also done, in mainstream gaming... By modders. No, really. For The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, there was a famous mod called Companion Vilja that even Discworld author Sir Terry Pratchett himself got involved with, that entirely revolved around having a talkative companion that can even take charge of the gameplay and effectively turn you into the companion on her travels, rather than just follow you along and comment on the things you do. And it should be noted, this mod wasn't the very first (or best) instance of something like this in gaming either, but it's a pretty noteworthy example of it from all the way back before even Skyrim came out. This mod could exist because this capacity was always there. It's simply that the biggest 'console seller' franchises tended not to focus on these things.
Agreed, it felt a little weird to jump to Uncharted as an example of an early video game whose story was more than just an excuse to facilitate gameplay. In isolation it'd probably be fine as an example, but the whole historical section talking about early data storage limitations on the NES and the jump to the SNES etc kind of frames things in a historical context, but then glosses over many great stories in those earlier generations.
Edit: Hey he changed the title, nice!
The title could use some reworking, I think. There are so many cool storytelling things that apply only to videogames and so many different approaches that focusing on just games that try to be cinematic feels reductive in a video called "Videogame storytelling is dumb (I still love it though)". I don't know though, maybe I'm just biased against cinematic games because it feels like they're the only ones that get respect and attention from general audiences because they're like movies. It's like celebrity casting in animated movies, even if it's good it just conveys a lack of respect or confidence in the medium.
Also the first line of the video really doesn't set you up to go from A Link To The Past to Uncharted. The question prompts viewers to think about games like Metal Gear Solid or FFVII or Majora's Mask or countless other classics with beloved stories that came out way before the first Uncharted. Again it sort of implies that videogame stories aren't good or don't count unless they're cinematic.
yeah
@@futureflea3917 Doesn't the title suggest that these cinematic games' storytelling is dumb? So he agrees with you.
@@Selrisitai No, it suggests that ALL videogames' storytelling is dumb, which misleading and probably a clickbait strategy to get videogame defenders to, well, click.
@Selrisitai My issue is that the title and the first 3rd(ish) of the video imply that he's going to talk about videogame storytelling in general, and then he spends the rest of it talking about Uncharted and God of War. I actually agree with almost everything he says in this video. It's just that the framing and the setup are mismatched from the actual point of the video.
This is one of the funniest ad reads I've ever seen "Me? But I'm a horse! Voiced by a child!" It's really giving Homestar Runner energy and I'm here for it
imo the most important aspect is about how the story is given to the player: The shift to cinematics instead of pure text totally changed how players experience the story. Like, with Rockstar's missions, you’re *_shown_* character motivation, action, and all the little unspoken nuances through body language and environmental detail-everything that feels like it's a scene in a play.
Meanwhile, games like BG3 with dialogue trees give you more *_control_* over your character's intentions, but it's still all about talking your way through the plot. It’s way more information heavy, but it feels less alive because you’re mostly still in a back-and-forth convo format.
With Rockstar's style, it feels more immersive and dynamic. But then you kinda lose choice and it's kinda what makes games unique over other mediums.
2:50 Zelda 1
-skips title screen and wall of text
"The first game starts like this."
Mushroom Retainer likely means retainer in the sense that they were a loyal servant.
Retainer,
a servant, especially one who has worked for a person or family for a long time.
i don't mind when games have the "game dimension" and the "story dimension", as long as it's done well. one of my favorite series of games, the yakuza/like a dragon series, does their storytelling in a fairly funny way. getting into a fight in yakuza is like turning on superpowers. your character can take all the knives and bullets in the world and chug an energy drink to recover from it. but when the fight ends and the cutscene begins, the characters are just as susceptible to mortal wounds as you or i.
i remember a specific sidequest in FFXIV, the bozjan resistance questline. as someone who played machinist through those quests, my character had a gun equipped at all times. there was a particular cutscene where a character defects from the resistance and holds someone hostage, but she doesn't stand anywhere near the hostage, so i get to spend that entire cutscene asking "why don't i just shoot her". similar thing happens later in the dawntrail expansion. hell, similar thing happens at the end of fallout 3.
What about Far Cry 3? In the story the main character killing people is actually part of the story and characters in the story even call it out.
I think there is a scene of him talking to his friend about how he’s slowing feeling more joy about killing his enemies instead of being afraid like at first.
His friend in the scene also shows visible worry for him.
Oh there are way too many good examples for one video, I already have a bunch of ideas for a followup. Far Cry 3 in particular is a great example
24:54 Woah, the God of War audio book is narrated by Mimir?! That’s so perfect!
A pretty good mimicry of Greek tragedies being called 2000s edgyness makes me die a little inside...wich is odd because i thought i didn't have a soul left at this point.
( You have been engaged. Hope you appreciate it)
But emotional investment, and thematic stories are for losers, havn't you heread!
man that burp during the anime close up gave me the biggest genuine lol ive had while watching youtube in a loooong time, amazing
The whole sonic thing...yeah you're right...I'm not going to argue about it.
Damn
I am! I think Sonic fans should be more positive and affirmative about the things they like, and also push the owners of Sonic to be better towards its treatment towards its creators and makers.
I thought the second one was pretty great
Sonic 1 and 2 are great movies, idc
Funny thing is that there’s an achievement in Uncharted 4 called “Ludonarrative Dissonance”. Which you get for killing 1000 enemies 😭
I always separated plot/story in my mind, nice to finally have an explanation for why though
Was that your kid? So cute! I wish I could do something like that with my kiddo. You're awesome and your content is amazing. This ain't much, but thanks! Subbed! - Kanz from Manila
Also, your TH-cam page doesn't have a "Join" button?
just a small correction at 23:02 kratos didn't kill ares for revenge he killed him bcuz the gods promised him to take away his nightmares of his family
kratos didn't even think he could kill ares until athena told him about the box of pandora
and at 23:17 he didn't kill the gods bcuz he hates them he killed them bcuz they were standing in his way he was going to kill zeus and they stopped him(he was trying to kill zeus for killing him in gow2)
This one video has very good production quality. I am yet to see your other work but I am already sat, smiling, and subscribed. So happy you got recommended to me.
31:12 oh wow
Scary shit, rig went bananas
I think that this is the reason why What Remains of Edith Finch is the peak of interactive in videogames. As there practicly NO cutscenes whereyou should just sit down and watch, you have the option for control each momment at your face and even you can skip part of it . And even better is that it also delivers a strong message about existencialism and whats the value of life. Something that other games use to leave aside into uncontrollable cutscenes where you can set your pace or feel somwthing with the controlls
Gawrsh that cliffhanger got me hooked…
I can feel the urge to talk about Arkham Asylum growing
It makes you FEEL like Batman
half-life not mentioned 😢
absolutely love your style of videos. can’t believe i haven’t come across your channel before but wow watching even the ad break brought me back to being a kid watching Jayden animations. (in the sense of the wonder i felt). subscribed and tuning in to whatever comes next
haven't played them in a long time but the "spiderman wouldn't do that so you cant do it" point is exactly what assassin's creed did, and would actively punish you if you kill a civilian too many times while the game tells you to stop doing it
(don't quite remember fully since it was so long ago so correct me if i'm wrong)
anyway i remember hating that game mechanic as a kid and just wanted to play out my made up scenarios in the game
i know theres like reasons related to story mechanics but that doesn't make them fun reasons and i will still hate them
Hey Cam!
Great vid :)
Some things I think should be mentioned is that some of the first video games were actually just story text only games! Games like: Zork (1977) (Prob the biggest one), Colossal Cave adventure (1976) and a mind forever voyaging (1985). And some text-based games with actual imagery like: Mystery house (1980), Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy (1984), just to name a few, during the MS-DOS and Apple II days there were load and loads more of text-based adventure games! However, you may say, Rosa! (that is my name ;) ) these are all just basically choose your own adventure books! And that's booooooooooooring, because books are boring. Which is a very true and factual fact, but what if I told you that there were adventure games that had a narrative AND GAMEPLAY! Witchcraft! Black magic! You may say, but it is true, low and behold such games as: kings quest (1980) (don't actually play the og kings quest you WILL rip you hair out) , maniac mansion (1987) and my personal favorite Another World (1991). All these games with a real cinematic, or in maniac mansion's case sitcom feel. And I didn't even talk about the Kojima games (I will take EVERY opportunity to talk about Kojima >:) ) that came out, like Snatcher (1988), Policenauts (1994) and of course Metal Gear (1987), Or the swell off very heavy narrative pc-98 games or the famicon detective series.
Once again I would like to say that you have done a wonderful job presenting narratives in games, I just thought that this was something that was worth mentioning
Also, the Oregon Trail is a good early example of gameplay working in service of narrative. Educational games in general are not talked about much.
I don't think collosal cave had much more story at all. It just seems like it because its text and is thematically integrated. Later text adventures got there. But still. kings quest also doesn't have much going for it.
it was just in bad taste to make fun of that person so early into the video,, just soured my whole mood
Agreed
“The audience must think I don’t watch anime. Well, jokes on them, because I don’t watch anime!” 😂
Nathan drakes kill count has been estimated to be between 3500-4000 and that’s just the CONFIRMED ones from games
I read the book and that definitely added a ton more
Which makes the common "it's just like Indiana Jones" argument fall pretty flat.
Getting the voice actor for Mimir to narrate the audiobook is just genius
God I love your dry and self-aware humor, reminds me of Technology Connections in an odd way
I've watched many, many hours of Technology Connections over the years, perhaps that style of humor is rubbing off on me
I think a factor people forget about was that ten years ago, the early 2010s, video games' status as Art was being hotly debated. Studios were pushing for more and more cinematic games because movies were an unquestioned art form by then and they desperately wanted the credibility that came with such a label. It seems silly to us now, but the generation pushing back against it no longer had easy access to even LEARN how to play a video game at this point--so many of us grew up with MUCH simpler controls and consoles and were able to build on these concepts as we grew, and now, and even in the '10s, diving in headfirst with zero exposure is extremely daunting. In 2011, Nintendo was boasting 90+ minutes of cutscenes in their new game, Skyward Sword, the style of which was based on Pointillist and Impressionist paintings--not coincidentally. Nowadays "90 minutes of nonplayable Content" isn't a selling point. Back then, it generated immediate hype. It seemed like everyone wanted games to be movies and only withdrew when the dissonance became too obvious to ignore.
you didn't mention RPGs/JRPGs and I would love to see what you have to say about Undertale. Gameplay and story intergration have never been done finer. the way that even the UI is part of the story.
There's a little indie RPG called In Stars and Time that is honestly probably the best tie of gameplay and story that I've ever experienced. It's one of those rare cases where you simply couldn't tell the story better as a book. At least not with the same level of emotional depth.
The first The Last of Us is also a perfect example of how to tackle the issue of ludonarrative dissonance, (and one which was done by Naughty Dog themselves). Much like Kratos, Joel is a killer, and this aspect of his character is central to the game's story. He's lost much of his humanity in a brutal world where you must kill to survive, and this also shapes the gameplay, showing that other humans can be just as dangerous as the infected.
Then TLoU Part II regressed in this regard by forcing you to fight and kill the "good guys" on both sides of the conflict. This creates a disconnect between the characters and the player, undermining the cohesion that was so strong in the first game.
Not really. Those people were just trying to feed their families and defend them from psychopaths like Joel.
If anything he should have more empathy than ellie who haven't lived outside this kill or be killed world.
I was shocked by the twist of the "antagonists" of that act because they were 100% justified in every measurable way, and I thought the game was brave for going there, because it's cliche to never meaningfully or directly address the morality of the protagonists like that. Then that's just not how the rest of the story treats it all. TLoU1 failed tons too.
my good sir, I loved the video, but the widdle voices for the ad read and at the end have just melted my heart. A+ keep up the great work!
On the topic of Ludonarrative Dissonance, I immediately thought of the Yakuza series. While the side stories and the main storyline contrast VASTLY in terms of tone, somehow they still manage to keep the characterizations consistent. Also while being sort of an "open-world" game where you can do lots of stuff (and I mean LOTS of interactivity), the game still won't let you do things that the main character wouldn't canonically do. Like punching civilians and especially women. It has that restriction yet you still feel like you're the character, that somehow it's still you. It's an amazing balance between characterization and player agency that we don't often see in video games that often. I would actually recommend you to try this game out if you haven't yet.
Not even half-way through the video and I'm blown away by the production quality
I absolutely love your humor. Of course I'll leave a comment to support you!!
I can tell how much effort went into this (and your other stuff). Your visual storytelling and your script writing is so entertaining!
"But I'm a horse, voiced by a child" is incredibly funny to me for some reason
So glad I get to see the sponsorship horse as my Halloween present
that is genuinely one of the most impressive looking "rant-sona" models i've ever seen.
i didn't get the first title of the video (which disincentivized me to watch it), neither this new one, neither the point of the video. i kind of enjoyed it, but there are so many narrative video games out there that your generalization of the topic and weird intro feel like more engagement bait, just like both of the titles.
this video is totally fine as a "ludonarrative dissonance" video, with uncharted and god of war as isolated examples, but instead it presented those games as good and bad examples of "narrative in video games", as a whole, which is not great.
i didn't think i would see this kind of bait on a channel i regarded as being great. i know i'm taking the bait by making this comment, but it's being compensated by the decline of my regard for this channel. i'll probably watch less videos anyways
For the algorithm I must specify he did not poop himself to death, he pooped himself to dehydration and the dehydrated to death.
no lie the best production quality on youtube
so creative, its a crime you dont get more attention, but we appreciate you
maybe if u do more general non videogamey topics, could be cool to experiment
Watch the Heathcliff videos!
I was not ready for the doodley crossover
I still don’t see the problem with this often stated ludonarrative dissonance of Uncharted.
To me it seems more like a feeling problem than an actual problem, God of War has gameplay parts that are broken by cutscenes, only that you seem to feel like the gameplay is more connected to the plot than in Uncharted but the only difference seems to be in presentation.
Its not like you can choose to not kill the enemies in God of War and killing the enemies is as much part of the story as it is in uncharted.
The only actual difference is that the character never reflect on killing those enemies in Uncharted but thats a common trope in other media where no one cares if the action hero just mowed down a bunch of bad guys that probably also had families and just had to do this bad guy job to make a living.
What I mean is that I can’t really see this as criticism, as then the only good action movies / games would be ones where the main characters is always depressed about the amount of people they needed to kill.
Since the game never has a theme about NOT killing dozens of people, it's not technically ludonarrative dissonance, e.g., "Ain't I, as a gamer, meant to be a pacifist in this game? Why am I killing dozens of people with zero consequences?"
Remember, it's not about what the CHARACTER is supposed to or not supposed to do, it's about what you, the player, is supposed to/not supposed to do, in accordance with the game's theme.
I guess that's why it's GAME-NARRATIVE dissonance, or maybe you could write it as game/narrative dissonance, e.g., the dissonance between the game and narrative, but I guess that's a problem, right? Because the narrative necessarily involves the character himself, a different individual than the human holding the controller, in most games.
Perhaps the term should be game-theme dissonance.
"This game is about moral ambiguity, but the game never lets me choose a course of action."
This actually came up most starkly in Spec Ops: The Line, where (SPOILERS) you use white phosphorous to kill some bad guys in a pretty horrific way, but it turns out you kill dozens of civilians, even mothers holding children, by mistake.
The issue is that the game keeps telling you that you're a bad person for playing this game and doing all these evil things-you the player-but the game fails to give you a choice to use the white phosphorous or not, so a lot of people felt "cheated." You're treating me like I'm a villain, but YOU programmed the game to have no option but to use it.
The "get out of jail free card" the developers use is that the game basically tells you TO STOP PLAYING THE GAME, and if you continue playing then you're accepting the villainous things that are being done. The choice isn't whether to shoot someone or not in the game, the choice is whether to play the game at all. That isn't a convincing argument to a lot of people.
The point is that the dissonance comes with the game telling you not to be evil, but then, in-game, giving you no choice but to "be evil," albeit by mistake and within the context of a character's story. You're not really "you" in the game, you're the protagonist Martin Walker. Whatever happens is really his story, not yours, but that doesn't change the fact that the game creates ludonarrative dissonance in this way.
Hmmm.
Love your "rantsona"! It's so well animated and it gives a strong identity to the video. subscribed!
Fine, I'll bite.
The sonic movies are at least a 7.5/10, not a measly 6, how dare.
Sidenote, I miss video game manuals. I know that they were ever only a necessity and obsolete when actual cutscenes came around, but man, nothing beats opening up that bad boy and reading the plot of the game you're about to play excitedly as mom drives you home. That feeling was awesome
To be honest I don't care how many people a fictional protagonist kills, especially in self defense. Especially especially in a video game that I am playing and controlling the actions for, because the protag didn't kill all those npc's, we did. As a team. And I enjoyed it.
If a video game tries to subvert expectations by saying "Look, look, you killed innocents. Don't you feel bad?!?" I feel like I wasted my time playing the game. Spec Ops: The Line does this but also won't let you progress the game or have any fun unless you commit war crimes (which you have to do to continue the game) then it then chastises you about at the end of the game.
Where is the fun in that at all? Movie games are stupid, go watch a movie.
Exactly
This video was amazing and hilarious! By the way, I’m really liking these ad segments cause even if it’s something I won’t be getting, you make them actually worth watching.
24:20 The Halo novels are the other example I can think of.
Yeah they were pretty good.
And the Arkham games
@tuck3771 They have books! Or are you making a comic joke?