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The very word "ludonarrative dissonance" is pretentious and needless jarrgonized. Ludo comes from ludic, which means "play or relating to play" Narrative is just referring to the story. Dissonance is a fancy word meaning disconnect, or lacking harmony. When game play and story aren't harmonious... Anyone can just say that and ensure 99% of people know what is being said instead of ludonarrative dissonance and ensure only 5% of people have a clue. Meaning is more powerful when everyone understands it.
I definitely [OPPOSITE OPINION] with you on [CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT] regarding [POPULAR MEDIA], because [INCOMPLETE ARGUMENTS BASED ON GUT FEELINGS]. Have a nice [TIME OF DAY].
Skyward Sword is a great example of the plot vs. story thing. The plot is the most vanilla copy-pasted hero's journey, but it has the absolute best storytelling out of any zelda game.
I must be an outlier here because I did not care about Skywards Sword's story at all, and the gameplay annoyances (mostly Fi) didn't make things any better. There was still a few times where I enjoyed the cutscenes, but in general I found Zelda annoying, Fi aggravating, the Imprisoned irritating, Demise boring, Groose as the best character, and the little plot twist really neat. Overall, I still think Twilight Princess' story to be my favourite of the series, even if the beginning is a little too slow, the ending kinda fumbles a little bit, and Zelda is barely there.
I like how your footage shown on different screens actually look like they're being played on one. Like how the footage on the CRTs have a fish eye effect and the projector has visible folds and the colors are slightly washed out.
@@camwingare you one person or a team? If I want to start making content how can I make it look 1/8th this put together? I’ve got ideas out the wazoo, a few scripts, and a couple of halfway edited videos. Totally different types, I plan to try lots of things to see what I jive with most, but I just feel like I’m editing together videos that would look outdated in 2005. I want to inject some pizazz and detail like you do, not in the same ways of course, but I have no idea how to figure that stuff out. Do I just need to edit a ton of videos for a while before uploading to get some proper experience with that part of the process? It’s hard not to feel wasteful to edit videos I may reform entirely or just toss.
We're a small team, but it's about 70% me. I have a channel manager who talks to sponsors on my behalf and helps brainstorm with title/thumbnail stuff, and my brother does a decent chunk of the editing, but his real speciality is all the fancy compositing effects. When you're first starting off, the trick is to make something that YOU are proud of. It shouldn't matter if nobody watches it, because they probably won't. It took me and my brother a year and a half before we got our first 1,000 subs, and in that time, we were just trying to hit our stride when it came to writing and editing, because neither of us were great at it starting out. As you improve, something that you used to be super proud of might feel embarrassing by comparison, but that's just because you got better at it. Don't compare yourself to other creators, just focus on comparing your current self to your past self. I make it a goal to get better at something with every new upload, which is the only real way to improve. Honestly, my main advice is just make stuff. If you stick with it and push yourself creatively, you WILL get better at it with time.
@@camwing you're awesome - and your content is quality - so That already earned my subscribe - but this comment has earned my share - and word of mouth support.
I am now going to engage in an argument with you, but I will make extremely broad generalizations and use very non-specific wording so that the argument can last for as many comments as possible.
Do you ever have those moments where you overthink what to write, don't really write anything, and then write this instead? BUT REALLY!?! The prequels?!?
Yay Sponsorship Horse returns!!! Idk who voices them (as it should be since they're a kiddo) but tell them that I love sticking around during the sponsor segments just because of their performance.
I think one of the best video game stories i have ever experiwnced is Portal 2. It did what God of War did, but much earlier in girst person perspective. The entire game is aware that it's premise -- a young girl doing a series of puzzle challenges-- is absurd, and therefore points to the creator of Aperture laboratories (the location where the game puzzles take place) as bizzare. Portal 2 also tells a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. There's no way I'd watch a silent protagonist solve puzzles for hours as a film, but as a game it's fun. And the only way it is fun is the immediacy of thr first person perspective. When you meet GLaDOS for the first time, you truly feel small and powerless. The POV helps communicate that very well. The later bits of the story become really good, as they allow for the audience to piece together thw history of Aperture laboratories slowly. You move through the history of the location, discovery nods to your own past, as well as the past of GLaDOS. On paper, the plot is pretty boring, but in execution Portal 2 is one of the best video game stories i have experienced. GLaDOS is a big part of that, but the sumbolism of moving up and escaping a large tower to the surface, the complicated relationship between Chel (the main character) and GLaDOS and the beautiful ending make the game amazing. It's hard to explain why the story of Portal 2 is so good to me, but i think it's a great example lf a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. And it works so damn well.
Perhaps it's influenced by my recent replay of P2, but I was thinking about that game the entire time. They even explain why GLaDOS loves making you test so much, through the concept of the cores and "the itch." Absolute perfection in game form.
Man, Ad reads are getting super entertaining lately. This is really great, I love the lines of "But I'm a HORSE, voiced by a CHILD." and "I don't even HAVE a phone number."
Gameplay and story aren't as separate as you're treating them, even back on the SNES. It sucks how little the approach was iterated on but look at Final Fantasy 4 and Fire Emblem 5 (both going by the Japanese numberings). The former is a JRPG that saved a class promotion for the MC's overall character arc and fire magic behind the black mage growing past how her village was burned down. The latter is practically built on the concept to the point you can almost follow the story just by looking at chapter level maps while knowing some fire emblem basics.
It’s a good video but it mostly applies to western video games of the last 15 or so years. There’s nothing about Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Disco Elysium or a dozen other examples of superb storytelling which is a little sad.
@@noelvalenzarro oh i meant narrative adventure games, point and clicks, walking simulators, visual novels. games like ace attorney and monkey island. zelda is more action-adventure
Or Deus Ex or Kotor etc. I feel like not even acknowledging the many older games seems a bit weird and ignorant when he says older games didn't have good stories. If you make a video about that topic and then point out when games had good stories at all, you do need to have a great understanding of the history of games in general.
"When did video game stories get good?" On PC around 90's. There were games like I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and Planescape Torment, and they haven't really been surpassed by that many things.
If we define "good" as "somber or didactic atmosphere," then I can't say anything. If we define "good" as "Well-written, tightly-paced, having strong characters with interesting and fun dialogue in a world you wish you could revisit, and possessing an emotional story that shows characters developing into stronger, more loyal people," then I say Bulletstorm is one of the greatest games-cum-narratives of all time.
If you can consider Zork as a game, and the entire genre of Interactive Fiction, then it's the 80's. A Mind Forever Voyaging Trinity Suspended Wishbringer Planetfall Also, there's Visual Novels from Japan, granted, all those things I've mentioned are more akin to books than video games.
@@crestofhonor2349 FF 3 onwards is into 90's already, it's really hard to find games with complex stories in the 80's, an exception is Megami Tensei (it's based on a novel, so it's story is more complex than say wizardry or the the ultimate games).
unfortunately that was just a device to get him to uncharted so he could talk about ludonarrative dissonance. I would like a deep dive into when videogame stories got good though
As a fighting gmae player, my favourite game's story includes: - an american drug addict that became a ninja to kick the addiction, then became president of an african nation. - japan being a fucking crater - the first king of the entirety of europe is french and that fought in a 100 year war against a different race, then fell in love and married someone of that race, and had a child with them, now feeling conflicted about the war. - said child being named fucking "sin" and being 5 years old, even though hes fully grown physically, but has a childish personality. He could lose his other eye (did i mention he only has one eye), sense of smell, taste, fertility, get kidney stones and lose a leg for good measure and would still be the heart of the party. He also fights with a flag. - his mother is named "dizzy" and is 10 years old - the second king of the europe nation is german and has hard course survivours guilt, to the point that he fights for you to kill him and literally gets stronger by turning your back on you. - the protagonist is a walking, talking queen reference who cannonkcally likes the band. He also killed his wife 3 times. His wife is the reason japan is a crater - shadow wizard money gang - a woman who fell in love with a big ass key. The key is sentient and the most normal character in the lore. - a dandy vampire - a black dandy philosopher samurai vampire - a brazilian lady with her name literally being "child (f)" in italian. - a pirate cowboy samurai who is also a gambler for good measure, and has a southern accent. - a man who was enslave and made a coup with a friend of his, turning the nation (which is airborne, by the way!) into a democracy, and fears his sacrifices will not be seen by the future generations as a valiant effort, but as a fool's errand, choosing to keep going because of the chance the future is better for the next generation. He's a grappler and his players are called "glue eaters". He also cannonically has drawing as a hobby and hates "pens that break under 3 tons of weight". - a samurai lady who is incredibely masculine and a dancing man who is incredibely fememnine, obviously a "fuck you" to gender roles. - whatever the fuck is going on with faust. My man was a healing god then lost a 6 y/o girl at the operation table and became a serial killer. He then regained his sanity and put a bag over his head in shamed, bowing to heal as many people as possible. In the latest game he relapsed and became depressed again. - a playable fucking bed. A BED. - God, playable. Like the actual ewuivalent of god. He fights with a gun. - a man who punched above his weight when summoning a demon, and was abandoned in a high risk mission by his partner. Later he was killed by the demon who proceeded to posses his body. He was then revived and can feel absolutely nothing, except when hes near his old partner. When he feels something which he doesnt recognize. - that partner uses her hair as a weapon. - an average british man from the 90's who time travelled against his will and if he goes back, he destroys the timeline and kills all the friends he made. In the latest game he reunites with his girlfriend thanks to... - witch who uses a guitar instead of a want and makes sexual innuendos and straight up sexual comments like they are going out of style. - bridget 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️ - a gay man who fights with a pool club and is in a very happy relationship with a fucking robot - A nonbinary madhouse with enough hobbies to make the list look like the library of babel. - a man possesed by his girlfriends ghost. - a man so powerful they had to make him old to be balanced - a kung fu lady who just wants to have a restaurant and it burns down every other week. WELCOME TO GUILTY GEAR
man when you read about GG you just know it from the first sentence lmfao. Quick correction tho, Giovanna doesn't mean child in italian, instead "giovane" does (it means both child and young, but mainly young), but it's the feminine of Giovanni, wich comes from the bible. Because obviusly the comment section needed italian lore lol
The video seems pretty limited in perspective if I'm honest, with pretty much only talking about super popular games that are the typical idea of a "game with a story". And also not really acknowledging different genres, time periods or writing styles that aren't dependent on cutscenes.
sounds like you’d rather watch someone like Jacob Geller or one of many video essayists who push the video runtime into hours. I don’t really expect feature length incredibly in depth analysis from this channel lmao
@coldjam Jacob Geller videos are about the same length and about very specific topics. And if you make a video about such a broad topic I do expect some depth, at the very least a mention.
Agreed. I thought it a little odd to make a whole video about storytelling in videogames without even mentioning narrative, story-driven games. Where's Detroit Become Human? Until Dawn? Life is Strange? Then there are games like Little Nightmares, which has no cutscenes and a very loose "story" (if you can even call it that), but is loved for being "cinematic". The game evokes the feeling of being in the middle of some psychological narrative and gives you all the plot, but leaves the storytelling to you. Perhaps a different experience from true interactive dramas, but worth talking about.
@nosneponsnek I was also thinking stuff like Deus Ex, Kotor and the Witcher which can be pretty dialouge heavy and how choices influence the experience, RPGs and JRPGs too of course. Generally how games tell stories through gameplay and even enviroment in a way you can't really do in movies, not just cutscenes. For me Dark Souls and the like come to mind there. Point and click adventures, visual novels even etc. It's just strange to talk about how story telling in games is weird and then take games that couldn't be further away from the unique way games tell stories. They are not bad games but they are not what I think about when talking about how video games tell stories.
I liked this video. It's a solid video. But how do you go the entire video without bringing up a single roleplaying game? Neither any JRPGs like FFIV or VII, or any western ones? Especially when JRPGs were briefly like the blockbuster narrative genre of their era, just like Uncharted, that seems like a big thing to just not bring up. A Link to the Past isn't equivalent to these, you can't just say they're "plot-games". And it isn't quite like FPSes either, which like you pointed out, are about very high-octane scenarios (HL, System Shock) or have someone who is a solider or something already (halo, deus ex). Even if you are playing a hero, the pace and nature of these stories aren't at all the same and are about pathos. This makes the video seem really weird and limited, and it also genuinely frames God of War (and not the Last of Us, on that note?) as the first real successful attempt at story-telling in games.... and mostly because it all feels plausibly canon. And when the plot of Uncharted is so thin too, because it's like an action movie on purpose, saying you'd rather watch the cutscenes seems strange because there isn't that much there. I'm not trying to be pedantic, all these things just weaken the video a lot.
Yeah, it's weird that the video doesn't mention RPGs at all, which would be an obvious thing to adress. That was one of my first thoughts from watching the first few minutes. This is not even without bringing up text adventure games. This video essay seems very uneducated on the subject as whole, only bringing up the most mainstream games to prove its point and the general misuse of the term "ludonarrative dissonance". The story of Uncharted being intentionally limited is not an example of "ludonarrative dissonance", which is proven by him bringing up Indiana Jones in the first place. I generally enjoy camwing's videos, but this one was not it.
This made me think of games like Half-Life where the player is in control (almost) the entire game, even through cinematics, but this approach also comes with its own version of the question "what is canon"? since the player trying to place a physics object on a character as a hat while they're talking is probably not supposed to be canon even if many players attempt this nonetheless. Still, it's interesting seeing how many ways a game can do storytelling, whether it be through completely scripted cinematics, explorable environments, dynamic sound systems...
I think the "hat moment" is something you do to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE narrative integrity. The value here is the ability to role-play. If you couldn't do something stupid, then acting serious wouldn't be as meaningful.
I mean, some of the first video games were text based adventures, usually with good stories! So I would say it depended on the game, even back then. Mother is a good example of a great story even from the NES era. Though, since the medium wasn't a media taken that seriously, and usually viewed as something for children, a lot of the stories weren't really thought out or taken seriously. Though there were certainly many great games with great stories back then!
I absolutely love your humor. Of course I'll leave a comment to support you!! I can tell how much effort went into this (and your other stuff). Your visual storytelling and your script writing is so entertaining!
First off, I commented a while back about how your videos used to be aimless, but I think you’ve massively improved! There’s a concrete point and you use examples and facts to back it up. The production quality is also super good! About the video: I think video games have an eternal narrative conundrum, which is that they allow you complete freedom, but it’s impossible to write something for every single possible option. You can potentially get to a happy enough medium to satisfy most people, but there will always be a disconnect. One one end of the spectrum are playable movies, visual novels, the like that railroad you onto a certain path, but like you said then there’s no point to it being a game. On the other you have the immersive sim genre: your Kenshi’s, your My Summer Car’s, stuff that tries to let you actually do everything to the best of its ability. But all that is putting the cart before the horse in that comparing games to other more traditional forms of media is a false equivalency, because gameplay is something that’s just fundamentally incompatible with traditional storytelling, in my opinion. The best it can hope for is coexistence like in the God of War footage you show, but games that actually weave the gameplay into the storytelling are few and far between and honestly feel like gimmicks. Undertale is one of them, perhaps Outer Wilds as well, but I think it’s something game creators are only just now starting to figure out how to do. It requires a storytelling structure and approach that’s completely separate from everything that came before it, and building that up from the ground is hard.
"Traditional" storytelling, being the key word here, as you yourself implied. Games are a recent art form with all the obvious struggles that come with that, but they will redefine the boundaries of storytelling and artistic appreciation, the same way film did in the face of theatre, and popular music did in the face of classical compositions. Apart from the ones you mentioned, I believe games like Papers Please, What Remains of Edith Finch, and everything Fromsoft since Demon's Souls also fall into the category of games where the gameplay and narrative are interwoven. In my opinion, one of the biggest hurdles in the artistic evaluation of video games within the broader populace is the name of the medium itself: video GAMES. That word will always make people forget the simple fact that all the other art forms belong in the same group as it, which is entertainment. While it seems reductive to refer to artistic pieces as such, at the end of the day, their purpose is to arouse interest and amusement just as much as cultural and artistic appreciation. Maybe 'interactives' would be better? Or like a Latin or Ancient Greek translation of it?
I still don’t see the problem with this often stated ludonarrative dissonance of Uncharted. To me it seems more like a feeling problem than an actual problem, God of War has gameplay parts that are broken by cutscenes, only that you seem to feel like the gameplay is more connected to the plot than in Uncharted but the only difference seems to be in presentation. Its not like you can choose to not kill the enemies in God of War and killing the enemies is as much part of the story as it is in uncharted. The only actual difference is that the character never reflect on killing those enemies in Uncharted but thats a common trope in other media where no one cares if the action hero just mowed down a bunch of bad guys that probably also had families and just had to do this bad guy job to make a living. What I mean is that I can’t really see this as criticism, as then the only good action movies / games would be ones where the main characters is always depressed about the amount of people they needed to kill.
Since the game never has a theme about NOT killing dozens of people, it's not technically ludonarrative dissonance, e.g., "Ain't I, as a gamer, meant to be a pacifist in this game? Why am I killing dozens of people with zero consequences?" Remember, it's not about what the CHARACTER is supposed to or not supposed to do, it's about what you, the player, is supposed to/not supposed to do, in accordance with the game's theme. I guess that's why it's GAME-NARRATIVE dissonance, or maybe you could write it as game/narrative dissonance, e.g., the dissonance between the game and narrative, but I guess that's a problem, right? Because the narrative necessarily involves the character himself, a different individual than the human holding the controller, in most games. Perhaps the term should be game-theme dissonance. "This game is about moral ambiguity, but the game never lets me choose a course of action." This actually came up most starkly in Spec Ops: The Line, where (SPOILERS) you use white phosphorous to kill some bad guys in a pretty horrific way, but it turns out you kill dozens of civilians, even mothers holding children, by mistake. The issue is that the game keeps telling you that you're a bad person for playing this game and doing all these evil things-you the player-but the game fails to give you a choice to use the white phosphorous or not, so a lot of people felt "cheated." You're treating me like I'm a villain, but YOU programmed the game to have no option but to use it. The "get out of jail free card" the developers use is that the game basically tells you TO STOP PLAYING THE GAME, and if you continue playing then you're accepting the villainous things that are being done. The choice isn't whether to shoot someone or not in the game, the choice is whether to play the game at all. That isn't a convincing argument to a lot of people. The point is that the dissonance comes with the game telling you not to be evil, but then, in-game, giving you no choice but to "be evil," albeit by mistake and within the context of a character's story. You're not really "you" in the game, you're the protagonist Martin Walker. Whatever happens is really his story, not yours, but that doesn't change the fact that the game creates ludonarrative dissonance in this way. Hmmm.
no lie the best production quality on youtube so creative, its a crime you dont get more attention, but we appreciate you maybe if u do more general non videogamey topics, could be cool to experiment
Cutscenes and gameplay being distinctly separate (as opposed to using immersive camera angles like in GoW) is generally unrelated to ludonarrative dissonance, which is what you seem to imply in the latter parts of the video (e.g. 27:19). That would be old-fashioned immersion, not LD.
I think the point is more that the character that is pulled along by the game's cutscenes and the character that is pulled along by your thumbs tend to feel like two completely different personalities. What's really bridging the gap with GoW is that the game gives plausible responses for the nonsense behavior the character can get up to when in the hands of a player.
@@MizunoKetsuban I agree with what you say, but in the video (27:36) he makes a point about how immersive cutscene angles help against ludonarrative dissonance, so the in-game dialogue isn't what he means. The problem is that while immersive cutscenes are nice, they're not really relevant to the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A game can have low LD while having the most abrupt cutscenes. It feels like he just wanted to glaze GoW because he liked it, but ended up hurting the messaging of the video as a result.
@@awsomebot1 I think you got the wrong timestamp there. You probably meant 27:55. But that is also immediately followed up by "but it goes deeper than that" because it wasn't just about the camera angles.
@@D_3_ I actually meant 27:36 but yeah, thanks for pointing it out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the entire video is wrong. Just that the section from 27:19 to 28:20 (about smooth cutscene transitions) has almost no relation to ludonarrative dissonance. Coincidentally, the stuff he talks about immediately after he says "but it goes deeper than that" is also not related to LD. He's describing how individual kills don't matter in Uncharted but they add to the story in GoW. That's _narrative_ dissonance, and he describes it as a problem with Indiana Jones (a movie!) earlier in the video. Again, not LD. However, the next section about how your son comments on your actions is indeed related to ludonarrative dissonance (gameplay actions are acknowledged narratively to bridge the disconnect), and he's completely right that it elevates GoW a ton.
just a small correction at 23:02 kratos didn't kill ares for revenge he killed him bcuz the gods promised him to take away his nightmares of his family kratos didn't even think he could kill ares until athena told him about the box of pandora and at 23:17 he didn't kill the gods bcuz he hates them he killed them bcuz they were standing in his way he was going to kill zeus and they stopped him(he was trying to kill zeus for killing him in gow2)
I don't really understand what you were trying to say with Uncharted and ludonarrative dissonance? You say that Nathan Drake killing people is weird because he's a regular guy and this is indicative of the game's "ludonarrative dissonance", yet in the same breath you bring up Indiana Jones whose also supposed to be just a regular guy. Ludonarrative dissonance is when the game's narrative themes directly clash with its gameplay mechanics. Violence isn't foundational to the Uncharted's core narrative, it's just part of it the same way as Indiana Jones movies, like you yourself brought up. It having an interactive element to it doesn't change anything.
Well I think the difference he was trying to illustrate with the Drake/Jones comparison is to say that the killing in Indiana jones isn't really acknowledged or used in a story capacity so it becomes that expected "cost of doing buisness". I agree uncharted toes a similar line but due to the existence of gameplay sections between the cutscenes you have a barrier that separates your actions and the character actions in a way you don't have in movies. Like in U4 where they do actually have drake confronting some moral implications only to go right back to rooty tooty mcshooty mode 10 minutes later.
@@jackdever3181 When I thought about or remembered that section though, it's actually quiet for a decent bit after, and Drake and his brother are clearly rubbing up against significant tensions about the situation. Drake feels he can't abandon the affair, but he does acknowledge some of the situation. Oh, but, just to give a kinda counterpoint. One difference with Drake imo is that Drake, especially in Uncharted 2, guns down WAY more people than Indy ever would. He passes a point of just defense of untangling evil schemes, and he usually starts the story with the motive of being in things for himself. That's why there's some dissonance on his portrayal. Though slightly to its credits, there's a moment in the first game too where it's actually Drake who wants to just give up on the quest but Elena is the one who wants to stick around. It's right before one of the skidoo sections, if you wanna look for it.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity. At best it's just plain old narrative dissonance. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
In the beginning he correctly describes what ludonarrative dissonance is, even if his example with Miles Morales wasn't the strongest. Yet for the rest of the video he conflates ludonarrative dissonance with _narrative_ dissonance and also immersion (cutscenes etc).
So, are we going to pretend that RPGs, adventure games and visual novels never existed? I guess compelling stories in videogames started with the "Sony's third-person cinematic action game™" type of game, then. This is like that meme "Videogame history: Super Mario Bros > literally no games > The last of Us"
@@camwing It was rude on my part, I'm sorry. However, I'm still sustaining that the framing of the video ignores massive parts of the history of the medium in a way that feels very reductive. Same thing with the idea that more ambitious stories weren't a possibility due to storage limits, CDs were able to contain massive amounts of data by standards of the era and narrative rich games (and even games where the narrative was the focus) already existed for years before the 5th gen of consoles.
There's a bit at the end of Uncharted to where the villain (whose name I'm not gonna try to spell) says "How many of my men have you killed? Just Today!" which is the closest the series has come to actually talking about how much of a murder machine Nate is.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity. At best it's just plain old dissonance in tone. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.** Honestly I think if you want to talk about "good storytelling" in games the most potent examples aren't found in blockbuster action games. Good storytelling in games should born out in gameplay. Currently the mainstream industry is putting serviceable movies into games, with little to no cohesion. My favourite game is Signalis. Its a game where the story it tells could only ever be experienced through a ludic medium, the experience of replaying and becoming more obsessive about it is deeply resonant with its themes. That's storytelling in games. That's ludonarrative consonance. Uncharted arguably doesn't even have a ludonarrative.
This is a really well articulated comment. I would've wanted to post something similar had I not seen this. The misinformation around Ludo narrative dissonance shouldn't be so widespread when Clint Hocking's essay which coined the term can be found straight from Wikipedia. To expand on what you said (especially the end portion). Uncharted (and most games in general) tend to just not have gameplay interface in any meaningful way with the story. It's usually gameplay for gameplay itself, which isn't the same as the story told in gameplay actively contradicting the stated themes of a work. It's kind of a letdown to watch a (well produced) long video essay that ultimately puts the Sony Cinematic third person formula on a pedestal. The Last of Us (and God of War 2018 by extension) are derivative of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Team Ico's Games did a lot more to embrace using gameplay itself as a storytelling device.
@@harrybudgeiv349 Thank you. This post sent me down the dusty road toward that, and the original post, and gave me a better understanding of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance." Here's my takeaway: It's a haughty term that just means "game-narrative discomfort," which is muddied by the obfuscating term "ludo." Every time they want to say _game,_ they say _ludo_ instead, and I'm like. . . why? It's like saying _versant_ instead of _cliff face,_ over and over, without ever saying _cliff face_ at all: Yes, you sound very smart, but are you being lucid? Additionally, the article you cited criticizes the original essay for not really having strong definitions, making it easy to coopt the phrase _Ludonarrative Dissonance_ to mean "Anything in the narrative that disagrees with the gameplay"; but wait, isn't that _precisely what the original essay was saying?_ I think the explanation in this video about how the characters act one way in the cut-scenes and then another in the narrative is a perfectly fine way to describe ludonarrative dissonance. The game-narrative connection is in discord. Why is that any different than the game's _philosophy_ being inconsistently portrayed through gameplay? There's nothing about the term that suggests it can't be used in this broader application. Now, when people misuse _cognitive dissonance,_ THAT'S an issue, and I'll tell you why! So. . . .
If I understand you correctly then a game like Ghost of Tsushima does have a ludonarrative. Jin is presented with a dilemma. Remain an honorable samurai, or save his people by using dishonorable tactics. Most players won't encounter much ludonarrative dissonance, as I believe most players will embrace using the dishonorable tactics. However, if a player were to try and remain honorable the whole time, the narrative will create dissonance.
To be frank. You come across as quite snarky in this comment. There is nothing wrong with liking these big budget games. And while there are probably examples of stories in games. The type of game you mentioned isn't what the video is talking about. I don't know much about Signalis. I have no doubt it's a great game. But I can betcha that the way that game tells it's story is fundamentally different than what Cam was talking about and can't really be compared to these more movie like games. I know you're comment was about Ludonarrative Dissonance, how he used the term wrong. And you could very well be right about that. I'm not an expert on the topic myself. But there is no reason to seemingly dunk on the games he's talking about. You just diss Uncharted and God of War as mainstream slop. And that just feels wrong to me.
I am! I think Sonic fans should be more positive and affirmative about the things they like, and also push the owners of Sonic to be better towards its treatment towards its creators and makers.
Mushroom Retainer likely means retainer in the sense that they were a loyal servant. Retainer, a servant, especially one who has worked for a person or family for a long time.
What about Far Cry 3? In the story the main character killing people is actually part of the story and characters in the story even call it out. I think there is a scene of him talking to his friend about how he’s slowing feeling more joy about killing his enemies instead of being afraid like at first. His friend in the scene also shows visible worry for him.
Wait, I don’t get how Uncharted creates Ludonarrative dissonance. I haven’t played them so I’m just going by what you presented in the video. If the game is trying to evoke the feeling of an action adventure movie in which killing isn’t that big of a deal, and then killing isn’t that big of a deal in the gameplay, then it seems like there’s no dissonance there. The dissonance might have more to do that you play as an adventurer discovering new places while the gameplay is just pretty linear. But that’s just a guess since I haven’t played them
This video was amazing and hilarious! By the way, I’m really liking these ad segments cause even if it’s something I won’t be getting, you make them actually worth watching.
imo the most important aspect is about how the story is given to the player: The shift to cinematics instead of pure text totally changed how players experience the story. Like, with Rockstar's missions, you’re *_shown_* character motivation, action, and all the little unspoken nuances through body language and environmental detail-everything that feels like it's a scene in a play. Meanwhile, games like BG3 with dialogue trees give you more *_control_* over your character's intentions, but it's still all about talking your way through the plot. It’s way more information heavy, but it feels less alive because you’re mostly still in a back-and-forth convo format. With Rockstar's style, it feels more immersive and dynamic. But then you kinda lose choice and it's kinda what makes games unique over other mediums.
I'm here to boost engagement, but I don't have an any inflammatory response to incite engagement. Just, like, pretend I said something which really upsets you and incites a response.
What’s more crazy about the Mario thing is that when Nintendo released it through virtual console the emulator to play the game was significantly bigger than the game itself. Meaning most of your download wasn’t even the game itself
Games like Halo and Half Life had great story-telling around the time they were released and went on to make some of our favorite video game series ever The Halo games were awesome, especially Halo 2 The Half Life games not only had great story-telling, but it also made leaps and bounds in physics engine software. And it all started from 2 guys who copied the Quake engine and built on to it.
5:22 This is my contribution of a non-inflammatory statement on a controversial topic to spur conversations in the comment section to increase the level of viewer engagement, thereby boosting the video's algorithmic success. 👍 Good work camwing!
It rarely happens that I laugh out loud when watching videos on TH-cam, but your videos, your humour always manage to do that. Also, your videos are so well done and thoughtful, it's a joy to watch them. I hope there will be many more to come. :)
The lens I view Uncharted through is it’s an action movie but rather than passively watch the exhilarating action scenes, you take part in them. When you play it, you’re both the audience and the actor. When I sit down to replay U4, I consider it the same as rewatching a favorite movie
Small nitpick…but Elena and Nate decide to quit the treasure hunting life because it turns Nate into a lying kill machine, not because it doesn’t pay the bills. Plus he could die at any time instead of live a long life with the woman he loves The game’s indirectly addressing how many people Nate’s killed in the past and that it’s definitely not a healthy behavior Great video, as all your videos are
and about this point i'll add a reasonable interjection. This will help keep the conversation going, and allow others to join in on the discussion. I believe this will help to create a well rounded little comment tree before it gets like 60+ more replies and becomes unreadable past the first four or five.
@@doodadoodoo I will counter with a HIGHLY unreasonable statement and then follow it by insulting your intelligence. This will cause immediate chaos within the following replies which will completely derail the thread.
The title could use some reworking, I think. There are so many cool storytelling things that apply only to videogames and so many different approaches that focusing on just games that try to be cinematic feels reductive in a video called "Videogame storytelling is dumb (I still love it though)". I don't know though, maybe I'm just biased against cinematic games because it feels like they're the only ones that get respect and attention from general audiences because they're like movies. It's like celebrity casting in animated movies, even if it's good it just conveys a lack of respect or confidence in the medium.
Also the first line of the video really doesn't set you up to go from A Link To The Past to Uncharted. The question prompts viewers to think about games like Metal Gear Solid or FFVII or Majora's Mask or countless other classics with beloved stories that came out way before the first Uncharted. Again it sort of implies that videogame stories aren't good or don't count unless they're cinematic.
@@Selrisitai No, it suggests that ALL videogames' storytelling is dumb, which misleading and probably a clickbait strategy to get videogame defenders to, well, click.
@Selrisitai My issue is that the title and the first 3rd(ish) of the video imply that he's going to talk about videogame storytelling in general, and then he spends the rest of it talking about Uncharted and God of War. I actually agree with almost everything he says in this video. It's just that the framing and the setup are mismatched from the actual point of the video.
The first The Last of Us is also a perfect example of how to tackle the issue of ludonarrative dissonance, (and one which was done by Naughty Dog themselves). Much like Kratos, Joel is a killer, and this aspect of his character is central to the game's story. He's lost much of his humanity in a brutal world where you must kill to survive, and this also shapes the gameplay, showing that other humans can be just as dangerous as the infected. Then TLoU Part II regressed in this regard by forcing you to fight and kill the "good guys" on both sides of the conflict. This creates a disconnect between the characters and the player, undermining the cohesion that was so strong in the first game.
Not really. Those people were just trying to feed their families and defend them from psychopaths like Joel. If anything he should have more empathy than ellie who haven't lived outside this kill or be killed world.
I was shocked by the twist of the "antagonists" of that act because they were 100% justified in every measurable way, and I thought the game was brave for going there, because it's cliche to never meaningfully or directly address the morality of the protagonists like that. Then that's just not how the rest of the story treats it all. TLoU1 failed tons too.
A pretty good mimicry of Greek tragedies being called 2000s edgyness makes me die a little inside...wich is odd because i thought i didn't have a soul left at this point. ( You have been engaged. Hope you appreciate it)
This is a great video! Another aspect of story that I think should be acknowledged is the world itself and what’s going on in it separate from the main plot. When a world is well-fleshed out, and every game mechanic is contextualized within that world, your journey in the game and the way YOU engage with the world _becomes_ the story, in a way that other media can’t really replicate. Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling does this super well; you’re explorers, so interacting with interesting landmarks or finding new locations are part of your collectibles; nearly every sidequest gives you plenty of insight into the world, a number of which often require you to reason about things like item or lovation flavor text (making them more than just “video gamey items/levels”); and overall the game’s writing and structure does a fantastic job of implying that there’s a lot that happens in the world of Bugaria and beyond when the camera’s not on the main cast. The game’s plot is well-told but not crazy complex, but the world surrounding it is super engaging, and fun TO engage with, and that’s where the game’s (imo) excellent story lies.
Storytelling in games faces challenges of pacing. Many developers don't understand that a cutscene in an interactive medium is always downtime. No matter how many cool moves and explosions you put into it, the player is resting. This is key to the divide between narrative and gameplay-oriented players, often called casuals and hardcore gamers.
Okay... I gotta say... Comment bate aside... This comment 0:43 was unnecessary. Especially less than a minute into the video, when people are most likely to be engaged...
It was completely necessary. And hilarious. People with speech impediments agree. "Yes, I have a speech impediment too, which is why I'm not doing voice acting." Give up on this "everyone can be everything, everywhere, all at once" narrative. You think you're being nice, but what you're really saying is that we should PRETEND that everyone can do everything, and ignore the fact that this will set millions up for failure. "But someone with an impediment could train it out." Yes, and then wouldn't have an impediment, so maybe teach your kids that, but don't stop people from making funny observations with your boring, sanctimonious criticisms.
@@Selrisitai I don't disagree that it was a comedic statement. But I'm with them in that it was entirely unnecessary. You on the other hand. Sound like an asshole. People with speech impediments exist. Why would people not be able to voice act?😊
A lot of words have been said but I couldn't get an idea of what the author was trying to convey. The comparison between Uncharted and GOW games is rather unclear for me as well. They do use a different type of camera work but GOW still has the same cutscenes as an Uncharted. You as a player still can lay down a controller and watch a movie especially in the later part of the game. And camera work is not the thing which is responsible for a less amount of narrative dissonance, storytelling context is
Hey Cam! Great vid :) Some things I think should be mentioned is that some of the first video games were actually just story text only games! Games like: Zork (1977) (Prob the biggest one), Colossal Cave adventure (1976) and a mind forever voyaging (1985). And some text-based games with actual imagery like: Mystery house (1980), Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy (1984), just to name a few, during the MS-DOS and Apple II days there were load and loads more of text-based adventure games! However, you may say, Rosa! (that is my name ;) ) these are all just basically choose your own adventure books! And that's booooooooooooring, because books are boring. Which is a very true and factual fact, but what if I told you that there were adventure games that had a narrative AND GAMEPLAY! Witchcraft! Black magic! You may say, but it is true, low and behold such games as: kings quest (1980) (don't actually play the og kings quest you WILL rip you hair out) , maniac mansion (1987) and my personal favorite Another World (1991). All these games with a real cinematic, or in maniac mansion's case sitcom feel. And I didn't even talk about the Kojima games (I will take EVERY opportunity to talk about Kojima >:) ) that came out, like Snatcher (1988), Policenauts (1994) and of course Metal Gear (1987), Or the swell off very heavy narrative pc-98 games or the famicon detective series. Once again I would like to say that you have done a wonderful job presenting narratives in games, I just thought that this was something that was worth mentioning
Just coming across your vids for the first time and W O W! The editing, animating, writing, hilarious little one as a cow saying "bleh"... very captivating, endearing and polished 👌
Dude God of war is so insanely good it’s not even fair. It’s an amazingly fun video game, with some of the best action/adventure gameplay ever, but then it’s also an amazing father+son story, but then it’s ALSO a redemption story. And it looks fantastic and is super action packed. It literally has everything anyone could ever want in any game ever. I can’t believe it came out, playing almost anything else afterwards feels like a downgrade.
This is the reason why undertail and slay the princess are such great examples for video games where your choice matters and in other games like Minecraft storymode does not.
hey psst, you should take your personal info off the market if you like, wanted to 👉👈
incogni.com/camwing for 60% off and stuff
you wanna know the SCARIEST part about this video? how LATE it is, ooOOOOOooooooo
😊❤❤❤❤❤😊
I didnt even notice this video was uploaded 45 minutes ago until the sponsor horse part.
Final fantasy 6 and klonoa are good examples of stories done well in early video game history
Bro said thanks for 100k and two days later hes at 150k
Love the content, congrats
DOODLEY JUMPSCARE WHAT
Crying Face Emoji
And he just dropped a vid too
first hbommerguy in an up is not jump video, now Doodley in a Camwing video!?
Yeah
Damnit! I spoiled myself scrolling down
wait a second... this is just a video about ludonarrative dissonance disguised as a retrospective about storytelling in videogames
I'VE BEEN FOUND OUT
it always is 🥸
@@camwingHow pretentious
The very word "ludonarrative dissonance" is pretentious and needless jarrgonized.
Ludo comes from ludic, which means "play or relating to play"
Narrative is just referring to the story.
Dissonance is a fancy word meaning disconnect, or lacking harmony.
When game play and story aren't harmonious...
Anyone can just say that and ensure 99% of people know what is being said instead of ludonarrative dissonance and ensure only 5% of people have a clue.
Meaning is more powerful when everyone understands it.
@@honaleri ludonarrative dissonance has been one of the most important terms in game criticism for the past... Whenever it was invented.
I definitely [OPPOSITE OPINION] with you on [CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT] regarding [POPULAR MEDIA], because [INCOMPLETE ARGUMENTS BASED ON GUT FEELINGS]. Have a nice [TIME OF DAY].
+1. Also stealing and saving that [UNDEFINED_ARGUMENT] for later justified use.
Thanks, [LITTLE SPONGE]
@@stellanovaluna YoUR'E WELCOME, [HOCHI MAMA]!
@@somerandomguy3298 I LOVE [[Hyperlink Blocked]]
@@somerandomguy3298 I LOVE [[Hyperlink Blocked]]
Dude that’s genuinely one of the best sponsorships I’ve seen. Sponsorship Horse really pulled it all together. Tell them I said good job ☺️
I watched the sponsored segment and I’m not mad. He did a great job
I might have to watch it again
100% Never seen an add that good👌🏻😂
is horse non binary?
@@alex.g7317 I just have no clue if it’s a girl or a boy (girl I think) but I didn’t want to make anyone mad
Skyward Sword is a great example of the plot vs. story thing. The plot is the most vanilla copy-pasted hero's journey, but it has the absolute best storytelling out of any zelda game.
One of these days, I'll beat the dungeon fast enough to save her.
I must be an outlier here because I did not care about Skywards Sword's story at all, and the gameplay annoyances (mostly Fi) didn't make things any better.
There was still a few times where I enjoyed the cutscenes, but in general I found Zelda annoying, Fi aggravating, the Imprisoned irritating, Demise boring, Groose as the best character, and the little plot twist really neat.
Overall, I still think Twilight Princess' story to be my favourite of the series, even if the beginning is a little too slow, the ending kinda fumbles a little bit, and Zelda is barely there.
@@thepuzzlemaster64 fi sucks.
I liked the rest of it though
Mind explaining what makes it good? The storytelling felt very similar to other zelda titles afaik
Assuming you don't count environmental storytelling as storytelling.
I like how your footage shown on different screens actually look like they're being played on one. Like how the footage on the CRTs have a fish eye effect and the projector has visible folds and the colors are slightly washed out.
it was a giant pain to get working, so I'm very glad people are noticing
@@camwingare you one person or a team? If I want to start making content how can I make it look 1/8th this put together? I’ve got ideas out the wazoo, a few scripts, and a couple of halfway edited videos. Totally different types, I plan to try lots of things to see what I jive with most, but I just feel like I’m editing together videos that would look outdated in 2005. I want to inject some pizazz and detail like you do, not in the same ways of course, but I have no idea how to figure that stuff out. Do I just need to edit a ton of videos for a while before uploading to get some proper experience with that part of the process? It’s hard not to feel wasteful to edit videos I may reform entirely or just toss.
We're a small team, but it's about 70% me. I have a channel manager who talks to sponsors on my behalf and helps brainstorm with title/thumbnail stuff, and my brother does a decent chunk of the editing, but his real speciality is all the fancy compositing effects.
When you're first starting off, the trick is to make something that YOU are proud of. It shouldn't matter if nobody watches it, because they probably won't. It took me and my brother a year and a half before we got our first 1,000 subs, and in that time, we were just trying to hit our stride when it came to writing and editing, because neither of us were great at it starting out.
As you improve, something that you used to be super proud of might feel embarrassing by comparison, but that's just because you got better at it. Don't compare yourself to other creators, just focus on comparing your current self to your past self. I make it a goal to get better at something with every new upload, which is the only real way to improve.
Honestly, my main advice is just make stuff. If you stick with it and push yourself creatively, you WILL get better at it with time.
@@camwing you're awesome - and your content is quality - so That already earned my subscribe - but this comment has earned my share - and word of mouth support.
how DARE you insult the PREQUEL TRILOGY! I am GENUINELY MAD and DEFINITELY NOT leaving a comment for the algorithm. kthxbye
Gross, stay out of this comment section with those OBJECTIVELY WRONG opinions.
I am GENUINELY MAD you LIKE THE PREQUEL TRILOGY and DEFINITELY NOT leaving a reply for the algorithm.
I’M MAD THAT YOU HAVE THOSE OPINIONS AND IM DEFINITELY NOT LEAVING A COMMENT FOR THE ALGORITHM
I am now going to engage in an argument with you, but I will make extremely broad generalizations and use very non-specific wording so that the argument can last for as many comments as possible.
Do you ever have those moments where you overthink what to write, don't really write anything, and then write this instead? BUT REALLY!?! The prequels?!?
Yay Sponsorship Horse returns!!! Idk who voices them (as it should be since they're a kiddo) but tell them that I love sticking around during the sponsor segments just because of their performance.
I think one of the best video game stories i have ever experiwnced is Portal 2. It did what God of War did, but much earlier in girst person perspective. The entire game is aware that it's premise -- a young girl doing a series of puzzle challenges-- is absurd, and therefore points to the creator of Aperture laboratories (the location where the game puzzles take place) as bizzare.
Portal 2 also tells a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. There's no way I'd watch a silent protagonist solve puzzles for hours as a film, but as a game it's fun. And the only way it is fun is the immediacy of thr first person perspective. When you meet GLaDOS for the first time, you truly feel small and powerless. The POV helps communicate that very well.
The later bits of the story become really good, as they allow for the audience to piece together thw history of Aperture laboratories slowly. You move through the history of the location, discovery nods to your own past, as well as the past of GLaDOS. On paper, the plot is pretty boring, but in execution Portal 2 is one of the best video game stories i have experienced. GLaDOS is a big part of that, but the sumbolism of moving up and escaping a large tower to the surface, the complicated relationship between Chel (the main character) and GLaDOS and the beautiful ending make the game amazing.
It's hard to explain why the story of Portal 2 is so good to me, but i think it's a great example lf a story that can ONLY be told in a video game. And it works so damn well.
Perhaps it's influenced by my recent replay of P2, but I was thinking about that game the entire time. They even explain why GLaDOS loves making you test so much, through the concept of the cores and "the itch."
Absolute perfection in game form.
Man, this is a perfect Halloween video without anything related to Halloween.
Idk man I was incredibly scared with the sponsor horse
@@Sneaky_Turtle2 Kids are scary I getcha
you also missed the biblically accurate camwing at the end
Barely a Halloween special. Just about choked on my mattress when I saw doodley on the couch.
Man, Ad reads are getting super entertaining lately. This is really great, I love the lines of "But I'm a HORSE, voiced by a CHILD." and "I don't even HAVE a phone number."
For the algorithm, you and Doodley deserve more views. Sad that tons of frequent low effort stuff suits the algorithm more
Gameplay and story aren't as separate as you're treating them, even back on the SNES. It sucks how little the approach was iterated on but look at Final Fantasy 4 and Fire Emblem 5 (both going by the Japanese numberings).
The former is a JRPG that saved a class promotion for the MC's overall character arc and fire magic behind the black mage growing past how her village was burned down.
The latter is practically built on the concept to the point you can almost follow the story just by looking at chapter level maps while knowing some fire emblem basics.
It’s a good video but it mostly applies to western video games of the last 15 or so years. There’s nothing about Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Disco Elysium or a dozen other examples of superb storytelling which is a little sad.
The fact you did an entire video on game storytelling, without mentioning metal gear solid, should be a crime
Or mentioning any narrative adventure games or visual novels. those genres tend to be very narrative focused
Zelda is an adventure game
@@noelvalenzarro oh i meant narrative adventure games, point and clicks, walking simulators, visual novels. games like ace attorney and monkey island. zelda is more action-adventure
@@Gleamiarts This video is already a half hour. He has a day job. There's animated segments. Give him a break, he can't talk about everything.
Or Deus Ex or Kotor etc. I feel like not even acknowledging the many older games seems a bit weird and ignorant when he says older games didn't have good stories. If you make a video about that topic and then point out when games had good stories at all, you do need to have a great understanding of the history of games in general.
28:11 ''Stay Behind me''
First thing the kid does is jump infront and get smacked lmaoo
I never noticed that, but now it's making me laugh like an idiot, thank you
@@camwing I guess that's what happens when mistakes get encouraged too much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"When did video game stories get good?"
On PC around 90's. There were games like I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and Planescape Torment, and they haven't really been surpassed by that many things.
If we define "good" as "somber or didactic atmosphere," then I can't say anything. If we define "good" as "Well-written, tightly-paced, having strong characters with interesting and fun dialogue in a world you wish you could revisit, and possessing an emotional story that shows characters developing into stronger, more loyal people," then I say Bulletstorm is one of the greatest games-cum-narratives of all time.
If you can consider Zork as a game, and the entire genre of Interactive Fiction, then it's the 80's.
A Mind Forever Voyaging
Trinity
Suspended
Wishbringer
Planetfall
Also, there's Visual Novels from Japan, granted, all those things I've mentioned are more akin to books than video games.
Not just that. There was also games like Final Fantasy 4 and 6 as being notable for their stories as well as many other jRPGs
@@crestofhonor2349 FF 3 onwards is into 90's already, it's really hard to find games with complex stories in the 80's, an exception is Megami Tensei (it's based on a novel, so it's story is more complex than say wizardry or the the ultimate games).
unfortunately that was just a device to get him to uncharted so he could talk about ludonarrative dissonance. I would like a deep dive into when videogame stories got good though
13:06 - Not to mention, Indiana Jones was itself inspired by adventure serials from the 1930s that Spielberg and Lucas grew up watching.
As a fighting gmae player, my favourite game's story includes:
- an american drug addict that became a ninja to kick the addiction, then became president of an african nation.
- japan being a fucking crater
- the first king of the entirety of europe is french and that fought in a 100 year war against a different race, then fell in love and married someone of that race, and had a child with them, now feeling conflicted about the war.
- said child being named fucking "sin" and being 5 years old, even though hes fully grown physically, but has a childish personality. He could lose his other eye (did i mention he only has one eye), sense of smell, taste, fertility, get kidney stones and lose a leg for good measure and would still be the heart of the party. He also fights with a flag.
- his mother is named "dizzy" and is 10 years old
- the second king of the europe nation is german and has hard course survivours guilt, to the point that he fights for you to kill him and literally gets stronger by turning your back on you.
- the protagonist is a walking, talking queen reference who cannonkcally likes the band. He also killed his wife 3 times. His wife is the reason japan is a crater
- shadow wizard money gang
- a woman who fell in love with a big ass key. The key is sentient and the most normal character in the lore.
- a dandy vampire
- a black dandy philosopher samurai vampire
- a brazilian lady with her name literally being "child (f)" in italian.
- a pirate cowboy samurai who is also a gambler for good measure, and has a southern accent.
- a man who was enslave and made a coup with a friend of his, turning the nation (which is airborne, by the way!) into a democracy, and fears his sacrifices will not be seen by the future generations as a valiant effort, but as a fool's errand, choosing to keep going because of the chance the future is better for the next generation. He's a grappler and his players are called "glue eaters". He also cannonically has drawing as a hobby and hates "pens that break under 3 tons of weight".
- a samurai lady who is incredibely masculine and a dancing man who is incredibely fememnine, obviously a "fuck you" to gender roles.
- whatever the fuck is going on with faust. My man was a healing god then lost a 6 y/o girl at the operation table and became a serial killer. He then regained his sanity and put a bag over his head in shamed, bowing to heal as many people as possible. In the latest game he relapsed and became depressed again.
- a playable fucking bed. A BED.
- God, playable. Like the actual ewuivalent of god. He fights with a gun.
- a man who punched above his weight when summoning a demon, and was abandoned in a high risk mission by his partner. Later he was killed by the demon who proceeded to posses his body. He was then revived and can feel absolutely nothing, except when hes near his old partner. When he feels something which he doesnt recognize.
- that partner uses her hair as a weapon.
- an average british man from the 90's who time travelled against his will and if he goes back, he destroys the timeline and kills all the friends he made. In the latest game he reunites with his girlfriend thanks to...
- witch who uses a guitar instead of a want and makes sexual innuendos and straight up sexual comments like they are going out of style.
- bridget 🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
- a gay man who fights with a pool club and is in a very happy relationship with a fucking robot
- A nonbinary madhouse with enough hobbies to make the list look like the library of babel.
- a man possesed by his girlfriends ghost.
- a man so powerful they had to make him old to be balanced
- a kung fu lady who just wants to have a restaurant and it burns down every other week.
WELCOME TO GUILTY GEAR
man when you read about GG you just know it from the first sentence lmfao. Quick correction tho, Giovanna doesn't mean child in italian, instead "giovane" does (it means both child and young, but mainly young), but it's the feminine of Giovanni, wich comes from the bible. Because obviusly the comment section needed italian lore lol
Talking about great video game stories from 2007 and not acknowledging bioshock should be a felony.
Bioshock even directly addresses the terrible actions committed by its main protagonist. Honestly missed opportunity
It's funny because the term ludonarrative dissonance directly originates from a blog critiquing bioshock
@@HeyJinxBioshock is THE definition of lnd. It tried something with would you kindly and failed in all other areas
@@AugustRx Actually succeeded in all other areas! Hope this helps!
The video seems pretty limited in perspective if I'm honest, with pretty much only talking about super popular games that are the typical idea of a "game with a story". And also not really acknowledging different genres, time periods or writing styles that aren't dependent on cutscenes.
Yeah... the video is really well made but the critique itself is pretty amateurish
sounds like you’d rather watch someone like Jacob Geller or one of many video essayists who push the video runtime into hours. I don’t really expect feature length incredibly in depth analysis from this channel lmao
@coldjam Jacob Geller videos are about the same length and about very specific topics. And if you make a video about such a broad topic I do expect some depth, at the very least a mention.
Agreed. I thought it a little odd to make a whole video about storytelling in videogames without even mentioning narrative, story-driven games. Where's Detroit Become Human? Until Dawn? Life is Strange?
Then there are games like Little Nightmares, which has no cutscenes and a very loose "story" (if you can even call it that), but is loved for being "cinematic". The game evokes the feeling of being in the middle of some psychological narrative and gives you all the plot, but leaves the storytelling to you. Perhaps a different experience from true interactive dramas, but worth talking about.
@nosneponsnek I was also thinking stuff like Deus Ex, Kotor and the Witcher which can be pretty dialouge heavy and how choices influence the experience, RPGs and JRPGs too of course. Generally how games tell stories through gameplay and even enviroment in a way you can't really do in movies, not just cutscenes. For me Dark Souls and the like come to mind there. Point and click adventures, visual novels even etc.
It's just strange to talk about how story telling in games is weird and then take games that couldn't be further away from the unique way games tell stories. They are not bad games but they are not what I think about when talking about how video games tell stories.
I liked this video. It's a solid video. But how do you go the entire video without bringing up a single roleplaying game? Neither any JRPGs like FFIV or VII, or any western ones? Especially when JRPGs were briefly like the blockbuster narrative genre of their era, just like Uncharted, that seems like a big thing to just not bring up. A Link to the Past isn't equivalent to these, you can't just say they're "plot-games".
And it isn't quite like FPSes either, which like you pointed out, are about very high-octane scenarios (HL, System Shock) or have someone who is a solider or something already (halo, deus ex). Even if you are playing a hero, the pace and nature of these stories aren't at all the same and are about pathos.
This makes the video seem really weird and limited, and it also genuinely frames God of War (and not the Last of Us, on that note?) as the first real successful attempt at story-telling in games.... and mostly because it all feels plausibly canon. And when the plot of Uncharted is so thin too, because it's like an action movie on purpose, saying you'd rather watch the cutscenes seems strange because there isn't that much there. I'm not trying to be pedantic, all these things just weaken the video a lot.
Yeah, it's weird that the video doesn't mention RPGs at all, which would be an obvious thing to adress. That was one of my first thoughts from watching the first few minutes. This is not even without bringing up text adventure games. This video essay seems very uneducated on the subject as whole, only bringing up the most mainstream games to prove its point and the general misuse of the term "ludonarrative dissonance". The story of Uncharted being intentionally limited is not an example of "ludonarrative dissonance", which is proven by him bringing up Indiana Jones in the first place. I generally enjoy camwing's videos, but this one was not it.
Noone cares about animes, go back to japan.
If I had to guess, he probably hasn’t played any of those lol.
This made me think of games like Half-Life where the player is in control (almost) the entire game, even through cinematics, but this approach also comes with its own version of the question "what is canon"? since the player trying to place a physics object on a character as a hat while they're talking is probably not supposed to be canon even if many players attempt this nonetheless. Still, it's interesting seeing how many ways a game can do storytelling, whether it be through completely scripted cinematics, explorable environments, dynamic sound systems...
The hat moment in games clearly counts, as seen by Team Fortress 2, where the hats are unlockable as part of the Orange Box.
If the NPC reacts, it's canon
@@thacium Fair point, not every player may trigger these interactions but they're purposefully put there
@@sacrificiallamb4568 Oh yeah, I forgot that's a thing, even in Portal 2 there were hats
I think the "hat moment" is something you do to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE narrative integrity. The value here is the ability to role-play.
If you couldn't do something stupid, then acting serious wouldn't be as meaningful.
By the way, I'm really glad you put a content warning at the beginning for younger audiences. It really shows your integrity as a creator.
I mean, some of the first video games were text based adventures, usually with good stories! So I would say it depended on the game, even back then. Mother is a good example of a great story even from the NES era. Though, since the medium wasn't a media taken that seriously, and usually viewed as something for children, a lot of the stories weren't really thought out or taken seriously. Though there were certainly many great games with great stories back then!
I can feel the urge to talk about Arkham Asylum growing
It makes you FEEL like Batman
I absolutely love your humor. Of course I'll leave a comment to support you!!
I can tell how much effort went into this (and your other stuff). Your visual storytelling and your script writing is so entertaining!
First off, I commented a while back about how your videos used to be aimless, but I think you’ve massively improved! There’s a concrete point and you use examples and facts to back it up. The production quality is also super good!
About the video: I think video games have an eternal narrative conundrum, which is that they allow you complete freedom, but it’s impossible to write something for every single possible option. You can potentially get to a happy enough medium to satisfy most people, but there will always be a disconnect. One one end of the spectrum are playable movies, visual novels, the like that railroad you onto a certain path, but like you said then there’s no point to it being a game. On the other you have the immersive sim genre: your Kenshi’s, your My Summer Car’s, stuff that tries to let you actually do everything to the best of its ability. But all that is putting the cart before the horse in that comparing games to other more traditional forms of media is a false equivalency, because gameplay is something that’s just fundamentally incompatible with traditional storytelling, in my opinion. The best it can hope for is coexistence like in the God of War footage you show, but games that actually weave the gameplay into the storytelling are few and far between and honestly feel like gimmicks. Undertale is one of them, perhaps Outer Wilds as well, but I think it’s something game creators are only just now starting to figure out how to do. It requires a storytelling structure and approach that’s completely separate from everything that came before it, and building that up from the ground is hard.
"Traditional" storytelling, being the key word here, as you yourself implied. Games are a recent art form with all the obvious struggles that come with that, but they will redefine the boundaries of storytelling and artistic appreciation, the same way film did in the face of theatre, and popular music did in the face of classical compositions.
Apart from the ones you mentioned, I believe games like Papers Please, What Remains of Edith Finch, and everything Fromsoft since Demon's Souls also fall into the category of games where the gameplay and narrative are interwoven.
In my opinion, one of the biggest hurdles in the artistic evaluation of video games within the broader populace is the name of the medium itself: video GAMES. That word will always make people forget the simple fact that all the other art forms belong in the same group as it, which is entertainment. While it seems reductive to refer to artistic pieces as such, at the end of the day, their purpose is to arouse interest and amusement just as much as cultural and artistic appreciation.
Maybe 'interactives' would be better? Or like a Latin or Ancient Greek translation of it?
I still don’t see the problem with this often stated ludonarrative dissonance of Uncharted.
To me it seems more like a feeling problem than an actual problem, God of War has gameplay parts that are broken by cutscenes, only that you seem to feel like the gameplay is more connected to the plot than in Uncharted but the only difference seems to be in presentation.
Its not like you can choose to not kill the enemies in God of War and killing the enemies is as much part of the story as it is in uncharted.
The only actual difference is that the character never reflect on killing those enemies in Uncharted but thats a common trope in other media where no one cares if the action hero just mowed down a bunch of bad guys that probably also had families and just had to do this bad guy job to make a living.
What I mean is that I can’t really see this as criticism, as then the only good action movies / games would be ones where the main characters is always depressed about the amount of people they needed to kill.
Since the game never has a theme about NOT killing dozens of people, it's not technically ludonarrative dissonance, e.g., "Ain't I, as a gamer, meant to be a pacifist in this game? Why am I killing dozens of people with zero consequences?"
Remember, it's not about what the CHARACTER is supposed to or not supposed to do, it's about what you, the player, is supposed to/not supposed to do, in accordance with the game's theme.
I guess that's why it's GAME-NARRATIVE dissonance, or maybe you could write it as game/narrative dissonance, e.g., the dissonance between the game and narrative, but I guess that's a problem, right? Because the narrative necessarily involves the character himself, a different individual than the human holding the controller, in most games.
Perhaps the term should be game-theme dissonance.
"This game is about moral ambiguity, but the game never lets me choose a course of action."
This actually came up most starkly in Spec Ops: The Line, where (SPOILERS) you use white phosphorous to kill some bad guys in a pretty horrific way, but it turns out you kill dozens of civilians, even mothers holding children, by mistake.
The issue is that the game keeps telling you that you're a bad person for playing this game and doing all these evil things-you the player-but the game fails to give you a choice to use the white phosphorous or not, so a lot of people felt "cheated." You're treating me like I'm a villain, but YOU programmed the game to have no option but to use it.
The "get out of jail free card" the developers use is that the game basically tells you TO STOP PLAYING THE GAME, and if you continue playing then you're accepting the villainous things that are being done. The choice isn't whether to shoot someone or not in the game, the choice is whether to play the game at all. That isn't a convincing argument to a lot of people.
The point is that the dissonance comes with the game telling you not to be evil, but then, in-game, giving you no choice but to "be evil," albeit by mistake and within the context of a character's story. You're not really "you" in the game, you're the protagonist Martin Walker. Whatever happens is really his story, not yours, but that doesn't change the fact that the game creates ludonarrative dissonance in this way.
Hmmm.
no lie the best production quality on youtube
so creative, its a crime you dont get more attention, but we appreciate you
maybe if u do more general non videogamey topics, could be cool to experiment
Watch the Heathcliff videos!
So glad I get to see the sponsorship horse as my Halloween present
Cutscenes and gameplay being distinctly separate (as opposed to using immersive camera angles like in GoW) is generally unrelated to ludonarrative dissonance, which is what you seem to imply in the latter parts of the video (e.g. 27:19). That would be old-fashioned immersion, not LD.
I think the point is more that the character that is pulled along by the game's cutscenes and the character that is pulled along by your thumbs tend to feel like two completely different personalities. What's really bridging the gap with GoW is that the game gives plausible responses for the nonsense behavior the character can get up to when in the hands of a player.
@@MizunoKetsuban I agree with what you say, but in the video (27:36) he makes a point about how immersive cutscene angles help against ludonarrative dissonance, so the in-game dialogue isn't what he means.
The problem is that while immersive cutscenes are nice, they're not really relevant to the concept of ludonarrative dissonance. A game can have low LD while having the most abrupt cutscenes.
It feels like he just wanted to glaze GoW because he liked it, but ended up hurting the messaging of the video as a result.
@@awsomebot1 I think you got the wrong timestamp there. You probably meant 27:55. But that is also immediately followed up by "but it goes deeper than that" because it wasn't just about the camera angles.
@@D_3_ I actually meant 27:36 but yeah, thanks for pointing it out.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the entire video is wrong. Just that the section from 27:19 to 28:20 (about smooth cutscene transitions) has almost no relation to ludonarrative dissonance.
Coincidentally, the stuff he talks about immediately after he says "but it goes deeper than that" is also not related to LD. He's describing how individual kills don't matter in Uncharted but they add to the story in GoW. That's _narrative_ dissonance, and he describes it as a problem with Indiana Jones (a movie!) earlier in the video. Again, not LD.
However, the next section about how your son comments on your actions is indeed related to ludonarrative dissonance (gameplay actions are acknowledged narratively to bridge the disconnect), and he's completely right that it elevates GoW a ton.
God I love your dry and self-aware humor, reminds me of Technology Connections in an odd way
I've watched many, many hours of Technology Connections over the years, perhaps that style of humor is rubbing off on me
24:20 The Halo novels are the other example I can think of.
Yeah they were pretty good.
And the Arkham games
@tuck3771 They have books! Or are you making a comic joke?
just a small correction at 23:02 kratos didn't kill ares for revenge he killed him bcuz the gods promised him to take away his nightmares of his family
kratos didn't even think he could kill ares until athena told him about the box of pandora
and at 23:17 he didn't kill the gods bcuz he hates them he killed them bcuz they were standing in his way he was going to kill zeus and they stopped him(he was trying to kill zeus for killing him in gow2)
I don't really understand what you were trying to say with Uncharted and ludonarrative dissonance? You say that Nathan Drake killing people is weird because he's a regular guy and this is indicative of the game's "ludonarrative dissonance", yet in the same breath you bring up Indiana Jones whose also supposed to be just a regular guy. Ludonarrative dissonance is when the game's narrative themes directly clash with its gameplay mechanics. Violence isn't foundational to the Uncharted's core narrative, it's just part of it the same way as Indiana Jones movies, like you yourself brought up. It having an interactive element to it doesn't change anything.
Well I think the difference he was trying to illustrate with the Drake/Jones comparison is to say that the killing in Indiana jones isn't really acknowledged or used in a story capacity so it becomes that expected "cost of doing buisness". I agree uncharted toes a similar line but due to the existence of gameplay sections between the cutscenes you have a barrier that separates your actions and the character actions in a way you don't have in movies. Like in U4 where they do actually have drake confronting some moral implications only to go right back to rooty tooty mcshooty mode 10 minutes later.
@@jackdever3181 When I thought about or remembered that section though, it's actually quiet for a decent bit after, and Drake and his brother are clearly rubbing up against significant tensions about the situation. Drake feels he can't abandon the affair, but he does acknowledge some of the situation.
Oh, but, just to give a kinda counterpoint. One difference with Drake imo is that Drake, especially in Uncharted 2, guns down WAY more people than Indy ever would. He passes a point of just defense of untangling evil schemes, and he usually starts the story with the motive of being in things for himself. That's why there's some dissonance on his portrayal.
Though slightly to its credits, there's a moment in the first game too where it's actually Drake who wants to just give up on the quest but Elena is the one who wants to stick around. It's right before one of the skidoo sections, if you wanna look for it.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity.
At best it's just plain old narrative dissonance. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
In the beginning he correctly describes what ludonarrative dissonance is, even if his example with Miles Morales wasn't the strongest. Yet for the rest of the video he conflates ludonarrative dissonance with _narrative_ dissonance and also immersion (cutscenes etc).
So, are we going to pretend that RPGs, adventure games and visual novels never existed?
I guess compelling stories in videogames started with the "Sony's third-person cinematic action game™" type of game, then.
This is like that meme "Videogame history: Super Mario Bros > literally no games > The last of Us"
i'll make sure the next video is a 27 hour comprehensive analysis of every single videogame that has ever featured a story, sorry about this one
@@camwing C'mon, I'm talking about the framing, there's no need to be obtuse.
For the record , I liked your Spider-verse video, I'm not just a hater.
hey, if you're gonna come in swinging with accusations of a point I never even made in the video, I'm gonna give you an obtuse answer
@@camwing It was rude on my part, I'm sorry.
However, I'm still sustaining that the framing of the video ignores massive parts of the history of the medium in a way that feels very reductive. Same thing with the idea that more ambitious stories weren't a possibility due to storage limits, CDs were able to contain massive amounts of data by standards of the era and narrative rich games (and even games where the narrative was the focus) already existed for years before the 5th gen of consoles.
The kid that voices the sponsorship horse is absolutely precious and is doing an amazing job
I always separated plot/story in my mind, nice to finally have an explanation for why though
There's a bit at the end of Uncharted to where the villain (whose name I'm not gonna try to spell) says "How many of my men have you killed? Just Today!" which is the closest the series has come to actually talking about how much of a murder machine Nate is.
This misunderstanding of ludonarrative dissonance is a pet peeve of mine. The term was coined to describe the experience of a games mechanics directly undercutting exploration of the stated themes, specifically not being able to engage with objectivism as a philosophy in BioShock. Uncharted is not a game about how killing divorces you from humanity.
At best it's just plain old dissonance in tone. There isn't anything particularly ludic about the discord. If Uncharted were instead a movie where Nathan is friendly in Story Moments and a cheerful blood psychopath in Action Scenes, it would be no different. The game **has no ludic themes.**
Honestly I think if you want to talk about "good storytelling" in games the most potent examples aren't found in blockbuster action games. Good storytelling in games should born out in gameplay. Currently the mainstream industry is putting serviceable movies into games, with little to no cohesion.
My favourite game is Signalis. Its a game where the story it tells could only ever be experienced through a ludic medium, the experience of replaying and becoming more obsessive about it is deeply resonant with its themes. That's storytelling in games. That's ludonarrative consonance. Uncharted arguably doesn't even have a ludonarrative.
This is a really well articulated comment. I would've wanted to post something similar had I not seen this. The misinformation around Ludo narrative dissonance shouldn't be so widespread when Clint Hocking's essay which coined the term can be found straight from Wikipedia.
To expand on what you said (especially the end portion). Uncharted (and most games in general) tend to just not have gameplay interface in any meaningful way with the story. It's usually gameplay for gameplay itself, which isn't the same as the story told in gameplay actively contradicting the stated themes of a work.
It's kind of a letdown to watch a (well produced) long video essay that ultimately puts the Sony Cinematic third person formula on a pedestal. The Last of Us (and God of War 2018 by extension) are derivative of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Team Ico's Games did a lot more to embrace using gameplay itself as a storytelling device.
I read a short essay that was better at explaining ludonarrative dissonance. It's called Ludonarrative Dissonance: What it Meant and What it Means
@@harrybudgeiv349 Thank you. This post sent me down the dusty road toward that, and the original post, and gave me a better understanding of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance."
Here's my takeaway: It's a haughty term that just means "game-narrative discomfort," which is muddied by the obfuscating term "ludo."
Every time they want to say _game,_ they say _ludo_ instead, and I'm like. . . why? It's like saying _versant_ instead of _cliff face,_ over and over, without ever saying _cliff face_ at all: Yes, you sound very smart, but are you being lucid?
Additionally, the article you cited criticizes the original essay for not really having strong definitions, making it easy to coopt the phrase _Ludonarrative Dissonance_ to mean "Anything in the narrative that disagrees with the gameplay"; but wait, isn't that _precisely what the original essay was saying?_
I think the explanation in this video about how the characters act one way in the cut-scenes and then another in the narrative is a perfectly fine way to describe ludonarrative dissonance. The game-narrative connection is in discord.
Why is that any different than the game's _philosophy_ being inconsistently portrayed through gameplay? There's nothing about the term that suggests it can't be used in this broader application.
Now, when people misuse _cognitive dissonance,_ THAT'S an issue, and I'll tell you why! So. . . .
If I understand you correctly then a game like Ghost of Tsushima does have a ludonarrative. Jin is presented with a dilemma. Remain an honorable samurai, or save his people by using dishonorable tactics. Most players won't encounter much ludonarrative dissonance, as I believe most players will embrace using the dishonorable tactics.
However, if a player were to try and remain honorable the whole time, the narrative will create dissonance.
To be frank. You come across as quite snarky in this comment. There is nothing wrong with liking these big budget games. And while there are probably examples of stories in games. The type of game you mentioned isn't what the video is talking about. I don't know much about Signalis. I have no doubt it's a great game. But I can betcha that the way that game tells it's story is fundamentally different than what Cam was talking about and can't really be compared to these more movie like games.
I know you're comment was about Ludonarrative Dissonance, how he used the term wrong. And you could very well be right about that. I'm not an expert on the topic myself. But there is no reason to seemingly dunk on the games he's talking about. You just diss Uncharted and God of War as mainstream slop. And that just feels wrong to me.
The whole sonic thing...yeah you're right...I'm not going to argue about it.
Damn
I am! I think Sonic fans should be more positive and affirmative about the things they like, and also push the owners of Sonic to be better towards its treatment towards its creators and makers.
31:12 oh wow
Scary shit, rig went bananas
Mushroom Retainer likely means retainer in the sense that they were a loyal servant.
Retainer,
a servant, especially one who has worked for a person or family for a long time.
What about Far Cry 3? In the story the main character killing people is actually part of the story and characters in the story even call it out.
I think there is a scene of him talking to his friend about how he’s slowing feeling more joy about killing his enemies instead of being afraid like at first.
His friend in the scene also shows visible worry for him.
Oh there are way too many good examples for one video, I already have a bunch of ideas for a followup. Far Cry 3 in particular is a great example
Wait, I don’t get how Uncharted creates Ludonarrative dissonance. I haven’t played them so I’m just going by what you presented in the video.
If the game is trying to evoke the feeling of an action adventure movie in which killing isn’t that big of a deal, and then killing isn’t that big of a deal in the gameplay, then it seems like there’s no dissonance there. The dissonance might have more to do that you play as an adventurer discovering new places while the gameplay is just pretty linear. But that’s just a guess since I haven’t played them
That's because there is no dissonance, he misunderstood the term, which to be fair, pretty much everyone does.
half-life not mentioned 😢
This video was amazing and hilarious! By the way, I’m really liking these ad segments cause even if it’s something I won’t be getting, you make them actually worth watching.
imo the most important aspect is about how the story is given to the player: The shift to cinematics instead of pure text totally changed how players experience the story. Like, with Rockstar's missions, you’re *_shown_* character motivation, action, and all the little unspoken nuances through body language and environmental detail-everything that feels like it's a scene in a play.
Meanwhile, games like BG3 with dialogue trees give you more *_control_* over your character's intentions, but it's still all about talking your way through the plot. It’s way more information heavy, but it feels less alive because you’re mostly still in a back-and-forth convo format.
With Rockstar's style, it feels more immersive and dynamic. But then you kinda lose choice and it's kinda what makes games unique over other mediums.
I'm here to boost engagement, but I don't have an any inflammatory response to incite engagement. Just, like, pretend I said something which really upsets you and incites a response.
Gasp
How dare
I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW I REALLY ENJOYED THAT SPECIFIC TOPIC YOU TOTALLY JUST MENTIONED.
HEY THAT OPINION OF YOURS IS WRONG!! MINE WHICH IS ACTUALLY THE SAME THING BUT JUST WORDED DIFFERENTLY IS THOUSAND TIMES BETTER!
Only morons have this opinion. Mine is the better one.
What’s more crazy about the Mario thing is that when Nintendo released it through virtual console the emulator to play the game was significantly bigger than the game itself. Meaning most of your download wasn’t even the game itself
peak voice acting 0:39
Games like Halo and Half Life had great story-telling around the time they were released and went on to make some of our favorite video game series ever
The Halo games were awesome, especially Halo 2
The Half Life games not only had great story-telling, but it also made leaps and bounds in physics engine software. And it all started from 2 guys who copied the Quake engine and built on to it.
amazing touches like how the projector screen is a little bit scrunched up like a real one
Sponsorship horse's voice makes me headcannon that it's camwing's daughter and THATS SO CUTE
You're pretty close
I've really been enjoying your videos and I'm so excited to keep seeing what you make!!
Gawrsh that cliffhanger got me hooked…
I love how you can tell when a video has a lot of love put into it
5:22 This is my contribution of a non-inflammatory statement on a controversial topic to spur conversations in the comment section to increase the level of viewer engagement, thereby boosting the video's algorithmic success. 👍
Good work camwing!
It rarely happens that I laugh out loud when watching videos on TH-cam, but your videos, your humour always manage to do that. Also, your videos are so well done and thoughtful, it's a joy to watch them. I hope there will be many more to come. :)
Congrats on 2M!
The lens I view Uncharted through is it’s an action movie but rather than passively watch the exhilarating action scenes, you take part in them.
When you play it, you’re both the audience and the actor. When I sit down to replay U4, I consider it the same as rewatching a favorite movie
Small nitpick…but Elena and Nate decide to quit the treasure hunting life because it turns Nate into a lying kill machine, not because it doesn’t pay the bills. Plus he could die at any time instead of live a long life with the woman he loves
The game’s indirectly addressing how many people Nate’s killed in the past and that it’s definitely not a healthy behavior
Great video, as all your videos are
something that will cause more discourse in the comments thus increasing visibility for the video.
WHAT?! How *dare* you. /sarcasm
and about this point i'll add a reasonable interjection. This will help keep the conversation going, and allow others to join in on the discussion. I believe this will help to create a well rounded little comment tree before it gets like 60+ more replies and becomes unreadable past the first four or five.
@@doodadoodoo I will counter with a HIGHLY unreasonable statement and then follow it by insulting your intelligence. This will cause immediate chaos within the following replies which will completely derail the thread.
HOW DARE!111!1!1one1!!?!
@@doodadoodoo INFLAMMATORY REPLY THAT CAUSES THE DEVOLVEMENT OF THE COMMENT CHAIN.
The title could use some reworking, I think. There are so many cool storytelling things that apply only to videogames and so many different approaches that focusing on just games that try to be cinematic feels reductive in a video called "Videogame storytelling is dumb (I still love it though)". I don't know though, maybe I'm just biased against cinematic games because it feels like they're the only ones that get respect and attention from general audiences because they're like movies. It's like celebrity casting in animated movies, even if it's good it just conveys a lack of respect or confidence in the medium.
Also the first line of the video really doesn't set you up to go from A Link To The Past to Uncharted. The question prompts viewers to think about games like Metal Gear Solid or FFVII or Majora's Mask or countless other classics with beloved stories that came out way before the first Uncharted. Again it sort of implies that videogame stories aren't good or don't count unless they're cinematic.
yeah
@@futureflea3917 Doesn't the title suggest that these cinematic games' storytelling is dumb? So he agrees with you.
@@Selrisitai No, it suggests that ALL videogames' storytelling is dumb, which misleading and probably a clickbait strategy to get videogame defenders to, well, click.
@Selrisitai My issue is that the title and the first 3rd(ish) of the video imply that he's going to talk about videogame storytelling in general, and then he spends the rest of it talking about Uncharted and God of War. I actually agree with almost everything he says in this video. It's just that the framing and the setup are mismatched from the actual point of the video.
The first The Last of Us is also a perfect example of how to tackle the issue of ludonarrative dissonance, (and one which was done by Naughty Dog themselves). Much like Kratos, Joel is a killer, and this aspect of his character is central to the game's story. He's lost much of his humanity in a brutal world where you must kill to survive, and this also shapes the gameplay, showing that other humans can be just as dangerous as the infected.
Then TLoU Part II regressed in this regard by forcing you to fight and kill the "good guys" on both sides of the conflict. This creates a disconnect between the characters and the player, undermining the cohesion that was so strong in the first game.
Not really. Those people were just trying to feed their families and defend them from psychopaths like Joel.
If anything he should have more empathy than ellie who haven't lived outside this kill or be killed world.
I was shocked by the twist of the "antagonists" of that act because they were 100% justified in every measurable way, and I thought the game was brave for going there, because it's cliche to never meaningfully or directly address the morality of the protagonists like that. Then that's just not how the rest of the story treats it all. TLoU1 failed tons too.
I love sponsorship horse, please never stop including them.
A pretty good mimicry of Greek tragedies being called 2000s edgyness makes me die a little inside...wich is odd because i thought i didn't have a soul left at this point.
( You have been engaged. Hope you appreciate it)
This is a great video! Another aspect of story that I think should be acknowledged is the world itself and what’s going on in it separate from the main plot. When a world is well-fleshed out, and every game mechanic is contextualized within that world, your journey in the game and the way YOU engage with the world _becomes_ the story, in a way that other media can’t really replicate.
Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling does this super well; you’re explorers, so interacting with interesting landmarks or finding new locations are part of your collectibles; nearly every sidequest gives you plenty of insight into the world, a number of which often require you to reason about things like item or lovation flavor text (making them more than just “video gamey items/levels”); and overall the game’s writing and structure does a fantastic job of implying that there’s a lot that happens in the world of Bugaria and beyond when the camera’s not on the main cast.
The game’s plot is well-told but not crazy complex, but the world surrounding it is super engaging, and fun TO engage with, and that’s where the game’s (imo) excellent story lies.
I haven’t seen the video but I wanted to say video games are art thanks
Do you think "walking simulators" are games?
@@Lomaxxx53 Sure they are. There’s interaction from the player. The Beginner’s Guide is a walking simulator but it’s still a game.
What about games that shape the story differently depending on player choice, like Fallout 2 and New Vegas?
currently commenting in hopes of conversing more about controversial topics
Pineapple on pizza 😤
Just absolutely love your videos and your humour. I don't really know what to comment, but for the algorithm, I wanted to comment something :)
the fact that chrono trigger, and other good jrps with solid storytelling for the snes aren't brought up in this
Storytelling in games faces challenges of pacing. Many developers don't understand that a cutscene in an interactive medium is always downtime. No matter how many cool moves and explosions you put into it, the player is resting. This is key to the divide between narrative and gameplay-oriented players, often called casuals and hardcore gamers.
Okay... I gotta say... Comment bate aside... This comment 0:43 was unnecessary. Especially less than a minute into the video, when people are most likely to be engaged...
I was expecting this to be a joke comment but... no, I agree. That was just distasteful.
It was completely necessary. And hilarious.
People with speech impediments agree.
"Yes, I have a speech impediment too, which is why I'm not doing voice acting."
Give up on this "everyone can be everything, everywhere, all at once" narrative. You think you're being nice, but what you're really saying is that we should PRETEND that everyone can do everything, and ignore the fact that this will set millions up for failure.
"But someone with an impediment could train it out."
Yes, and then wouldn't have an impediment, so maybe teach your kids that, but don't stop people from making funny observations with your boring, sanctimonious criticisms.
@@Selrisitai
I don't disagree that it was a comedic statement. But I'm with them in that it was entirely unnecessary.
You on the other hand. Sound like an asshole.
People with speech impediments exist. Why would people not be able to voice act?😊
Agreed.
The "That's a good question" right after caught me off guard and did make me laugh though
I don't think games criticism would be where it is without Folding ideas
Which is crazy since he primarily focuses on movies.
We should make "mariobros of data" a real, standard data size measurement
you're one of the few artists whose commericals i will watch because they're entertaining.
A lot of words have been said but I couldn't get an idea of what the author was trying to convey.
The comparison between Uncharted and GOW games is rather unclear for me as well. They do use a different type of camera work but GOW still has the same cutscenes as an Uncharted. You as a player still can lay down a controller and watch a movie especially in the later part of the game. And camera work is not the thing which is responsible for a less amount of narrative dissonance, storytelling context is
The camera has nothing to do with anything. It's just ironic how the game without ludo narrative dissonance doesn't cut between the two
So excited for the inevitable follow up video about Asura's Wrath. That is if anyone remembers to tell you about it.
Wait until this guy hears about RPGs
Hey Cam!
Great vid :)
Some things I think should be mentioned is that some of the first video games were actually just story text only games! Games like: Zork (1977) (Prob the biggest one), Colossal Cave adventure (1976) and a mind forever voyaging (1985). And some text-based games with actual imagery like: Mystery house (1980), Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy (1984), just to name a few, during the MS-DOS and Apple II days there were load and loads more of text-based adventure games! However, you may say, Rosa! (that is my name ;) ) these are all just basically choose your own adventure books! And that's booooooooooooring, because books are boring. Which is a very true and factual fact, but what if I told you that there were adventure games that had a narrative AND GAMEPLAY! Witchcraft! Black magic! You may say, but it is true, low and behold such games as: kings quest (1980) (don't actually play the og kings quest you WILL rip you hair out) , maniac mansion (1987) and my personal favorite Another World (1991). All these games with a real cinematic, or in maniac mansion's case sitcom feel. And I didn't even talk about the Kojima games (I will take EVERY opportunity to talk about Kojima >:) ) that came out, like Snatcher (1988), Policenauts (1994) and of course Metal Gear (1987), Or the swell off very heavy narrative pc-98 games or the famicon detective series.
Once again I would like to say that you have done a wonderful job presenting narratives in games, I just thought that this was something that was worth mentioning
7:02 SONIC UNLEASHED ENJOYER = BASED!
We discovering the study of Ludonarrative with this one 🗣️🔥‼️
Sponsorship horse really did a fantastic job! They should get a raise
Just coming across your vids for the first time and W O W! The editing, animating, writing, hilarious little one as a cow saying "bleh"... very captivating, endearing and polished 👌
Dude God of war is so insanely good it’s not even fair. It’s an amazingly fun video game, with some of the best action/adventure gameplay ever, but then it’s also an amazing father+son story, but then it’s ALSO a redemption story. And it looks fantastic and is super action packed.
It literally has everything anyone could ever want in any game ever. I can’t believe it came out, playing almost anything else afterwards feels like a downgrade.
True even the sequel
101 subscribers, congrats!
I love boosting engagment by talking about controversial topics in media. I will not make fun of you though
So excited to be seeing this channel get the recognition it deserves! You'll be at 1 million in no time. AMAZING content as always, Cam!
This is the reason why undertail and slay the princess are such great examples for video games where your choice matters and in other games like Minecraft storymode does not.
genuinely angers me a little that a video of this quality doesn’t have millions of views
Technological limitations is not a factor.. the new Zelda - Echoes of Wisdom's non-existent story stinks
A: y’all wanted a traditional Zelda
B: the one Zelda game with a female playable character is the bad one ofc
Great video for "How to write a story for your video game (tutorial)" this really help friend.
boy oh boy i sure am early, i hope this video is good :)
it's bad sorry
@@camwing I agree
you know its a good start to your weekend when cam posts a video
Getting on the speech impediment was wrong idc how you slice it.
Beautiful video, it's like a goddamn painting- masterpiece.
i love your style!
Far Cry 3 is probably one of the better examples of game play and story working together. If you haven't played it then give it a shot.
Yes!