I am very happy that finally someone had the resources and will to build this. The principle of bigger leverage works and gears are just round levers. The increased mass of the bicycle is compensated with a better chain design out of robber. If you want to improve this concept further, please feel free to consider my recumbent design that has levers of 2000 mm plus combined with pulleys. It is designed to increase significantly the torque exerted by human powered vehicles.
To those complaining about weight.... First rule of engineering is that EVERY solution is a compromise. There is no "best", only the most suitable solution for a given situation. I seriously doubt the designers have higher end carbon road bikes and the pro peloton in mind with this gearbox. But there are many other types of bike that really benefit from a sealed maintenance-free design with easy shifting. Commuter bikes, which favour robustness over shaving off a few grams, get lots of rain and grime, lots of shifts (many stationary) and not a lot of care or love. Robust, sealed gear units are a prime candidate for these types of bikes. Add in the growing popularity of electric assist (which weighs much more than this gearbox) and this makes a lot of sense.
I'm particularly interested in the use of this gearbox for mtb'ing, having a sealed gearbox free from the dirt and dust, and having the weight suspended low down at the bottom bracket, rather than as unsuspended mass at the centre of the rear wheel... Checkout Zerode Mtb bikes, they've got a great looking bike doing this..
@@axiomicwe couldve had gearboxes for 100 dollars if bike culture wasnt as is. A depressed asian mechanical engineering student could make a working gearbox. Its nothing new
Thank you for posting this. I too would like to get my mitts on one for my recumbent trike. Hub gearboxes like the Rohloff are great, but they preclude the use of a Hub driven power assist, where as the Pinion would complement it. Yes you can get a 'mid-drive' motor like the Bafang, but these can give a lot of wear on the chain if you live around hills, (I live at the top of one :-( LOL). A hub motor actually improves the wear on the chain, as the torque generated by the chain is amplified by the hub directly to the wheel instead of onto the chain. I got 500 miles more on my last chain after fitting the hub drive! There is a short review of a pinion drive as fitted to an Azub trike on "Bentrider online" if it is of any interest. Apparently the change is a little stiff when new, but after a few hundred miles they loosen up a bit.
The manner in which those (unseen) protruding pawls engage the various gears explains why the Pinion Gearbox is do difficult to shift under load. Riders say they have to ease off the pedals almost entirely before a shift will engage, which seems like a hassle.
I think I figured out how the planetary gear on one side of the counter shaft works. The counter shaft is rotated by an engaged gear. The counter shaft has a gear selector shaft inside that is used to raise pawls. The counter shaft and the gear selector shafts rotate at the same speed. The shafts are connected by two planetary gears in series. The first planetary gear has a 4:1 ratio (input sun, output planet carrier, ring fixed), the second planetary gear has a 1:4 ratio (input planet carrier, output sun, ring fixed). Overall this is 1:1 ratio and doesn't seem to make sense. But if you rotate the second planetary gear's ring it will work as a phase shifter between the two shafts. This allows you to rotate the gear selector shaft relatively to the counter shaft.
@andrewkiyko7413: I beleive this is not exactly so. It seems to me that the way the (ingeneous!) shifter mechanism actually works is as follows: (a) The driving pinion is rotating the driven pinion. (b) The driven pinion is in turn locked to the camshaft by the appropriate pawl. (c) This pawl sticks out of the secondary shaft, hence is forced to rotate with the concentric camshaft, regardless of the planetary shifting mechanism (to which I'll get in a moment). So, per a specific gearset being engaged, the secondary shaft and it's inner concentric camshat are rotating together at the same angualr velocity. Now, how do we change gear? we must cause the inner camshaft to "phase-shift" with regard to the secondary shaft. This, If I figured it out right, is performed as follows: First let us define two planetary gearsets. Let’s call the inner set Gearset A, and the outmost set Gearset B (composing of SUN A, SUN B, RING A, RING B etc.). Now, (1) At the end of the camshaft there are two SUN gears, SUN A, which is not positively connected to the camshaft and can spins freely around it (it is and idler, carries no functional purpose except structural support for PLANTES A), and SUN B which is positively connected to the camshaft and rotates with it. (2) RINGs A and B are fixed, but RING A (the inner ring) is responsible for gear shifting and is rotating a fixed angle every shift. RING B is always stationary. (3) Now for the clever bit: The planet carrier is common to both planetry sets. It carries PLANETS A and PLANTES B, and, as long as a specific gear is engaged, is an idler, i.e., it rotates freely. (4) I order to shift gear, RING A is rotated in a fixed amount, while RING B is kept stationary. This Causes PLANETS A to rotate a small extra amount. This in turn causes the PLANET CARRIER to rotate an extra amount (5) In gearset B, this causes PLANETS B to rotate an extra amount. With RING B being fixed, this drives SUN B (and hence - the camshaft!), rotating it by an extra amount. This results in the camshat being "phase-shifted", which translates to a different pawl sticking out radially, engaging another pinion in gear.
When I said it was simple I was ignoring one thing. The pawls that engage the gears are on a rotating shaft unlike those in a conventional internal gear hub where they are on the stationary axle and engage the stationary sun gears. I would love to know how those rotating pawls are controlled by the pull-pull cables attached to the frame of the bike. ??.
I want to order a standalone gearbox like this for an ebike build I am working on. However I can't find any sellers that actually have product on the market that I can pickup. Figured I could weld one on to the frame I'm looking at using. I really would like to have no slack in the chain.
More or less hassle free. it's not as efficient as a derailleur, so you won't see these in road racing, but 636% gearing range with 11% between gears even steps without overlap is fantastic on tours. It's also extremely low maintenance. Exchange oil once a year or every 10000 km, that's it. I experience the occasional disengagement of a pawl, especially when I don't let the shifting mechanism engage freely (i.e. keep some remaining force on the shift ring at the handlebar.) That results in a hearty "clunk" when the pawl engages in the next pocket. Shifting down at the thirds of the range, where two gear pairs switch at the same time can also require more prominent unloading of the drive train. Normally it is enough just to shift down when the crank is vertical, thus input torque the lowest. Shifting 13 to 12 and 7 to 6 can be a bit more stubborn. OTOH you can shift down over several gears at a red light and take off in the ideal gear. That's a big boon over a derailleur.
Anyone know how much rotational drag this will create when freewheeling? Does it run dry or in oil, as gear oil is thick and will absorb energy. And what about the bearings, life expectancy and ease of servicing ...?
I loved my Sturmey Archer bicycle gears (three speeds inside the hub). Then I got a fancy new bicycle with Italian gears. Fifteen of them, if I remember correctly. I never liked them and my interest in bicycling waned thereafter.
't was the opposite for me. My Sturmey Archer hub had terrible efficiency. Only the second gear, where the internal mechanics are locked, worked well. (May have been a mantenance issue; that bike took some abuse from 14 year old me.) My first 5 gear derailleur bike was an epiphany in comparison.
Classical physics says no. Friction is proportional to the weight on the friction surface, not the surface area. Also, less surface area means more wear. (For example, narrow 11-speed chains wear faster than single speed coaster brake chains.)
Thanks for this video. Very good explanation. However don't really understand how the shifting mechanism works tbh. I a typical igh, shifting is done by locking the sun gear with the pawls. But in this design, wouldn't the pawls have to be rotating together with the locked gear? How does sync up this rotation and what is the actual shifting action? Basically what i'm asking is, do you have any more insight into how the shifting is achieved with the planetary gear hack in the pinion gearbox =)
You are quite correct, and you are almost there as far as understanding how it works. In a wheel hub, the axle is a non moving part, whereas here, the counter shaft rotates with the gears. The pawl actuating cams must rotate with the countershaft as you point out. The planetary gear set you see on the end of the countershaft provides for switching the pawl actuators while the shaft is rotating. That's about as far as I can go with the theory until I can either lay my hands on one, or find more detailed drawings.
On close inspection of the few 3d renderings of the insides of the gearbox it actually looks like there's two set's of planetary gears. That would explain how the switching shaft can be synced with the counter shaft, where i assume the pawls are mounted. Do you think i'm getting closer...? Man i'd love to see this mechanism working=) =) I'm so fascinated by it right now.
Check out this video. th-cam.com/video/baaBgXTIyms/w-d-xo.html Starting at about 3:34 you can see the ring gear being removed from the planetaries and the shifting gear being manually rotated.
I really don't understand about the input and output shaft being the same shaft. I reallly apreciate if you can give or guide me to a clear explanation, sir.
My apologies if my explanation was not clear. If you go through it again, note that I showed the 6 gears on the input shaft farthest away from the chain side are all permanently coupled to the shaft, and transmit power to whichever of the countershaft gears is coupled to the countershaft. the three gears closest to the chain side on the input shaft are not coupled to the axle, so that gear cluster is driven by whichever of the three gears it meshes with. Think of the shaft that those three gears are mounted on as a hollow tube which the input shaft passes through but does not drive.
wow, wondered how those work. I wonder why they went with helical on the last set. i suppose that's the granny gear with more torque potential. the array out different teethstrikes me as odd. are automotive gearboxes like that? i can see that the ratio has to have a whole number of teeth and toy on the same center to center.
The helical gear set is the low range gear, so it will be subjected to the most torque. The teeth on the lower three gears on the close ratio side are cut much coarser than the top three That would be for strength given the constraints of overall width available within the box .
Since the shifters wasn't shown is this system basically a 3x6 drive? Because in a 3x6 drive you don't have 18 gears you have 18 ratio combinations with some of the combinations being redundant.
Dan Burkhart I believe a much more intuitive (i.e. lever-operated, indexed) shifting mechanism would contribute to the popularity of these products. Test riders seem to agree.
No experience with the Efneo, but looks like a good solution for a city bike. It can be retrofitted to a frame with a standard bottom bracket shell, unlike the Pinion which requires a proprietary mount.
The sum of (a) contact friction between meshing gears (two pairs at any given moment), plus (b) sloshing of lubricating oil (temperature-dependent viscosity), plus (c) inertial momentum of the gear bodies themselves (which collectively weigh more than a cassette/chainring arrangement).
The problems of this architecture are weight and encumbrance. Only race bikes segment is actually demanding a high number of ratios, but at the same time this gearbox is too heavy and too big for race bikes. So in the end, it's nice ok, but has no commercial sense.
I don't think the images or your explanation helps. It's just weird that not one single video YT can explain what actually happens when the gears are shifted.
Why would they be heavy? You're not putting 400 foot pounds of torque through them. How much torque can your legs generate? Whatever the number a lawn mower generates more. So what do these gears need to be heavy for? They could be almost as light as an entire group set. Probably a number of ounces heavier do the weight of the case and whatever amount of oil it would contain. More over, these gears could be hollow. Or made of a very light metal. Again. They don't need very much strength. If aluminum can work in this application it will be.
Bike engineer 1: So the problem is everything that's common sense has been done to death and we are in the red. Product suggests anyone? Bike Engineer 2: Ah everything that's not common sense? Bike engineer 1: Love it lets go with that.
Michael McNeil Sometimes folks hit the wrong button. Antifa? Why don't you put some thought into why antifa have become so astonishingly necessary everyone knows or talks about it. You young competant people are the future, we boom and x are old and frightened.
The least thing you should know about anything is how to spell it. Apparently, you don't know the least thing about Antifa. Does that make you a Knotsie? Don't worry I can spell 'Nazi'. But you're enough of a bootlicker that you've become synonymous with Hitler's shoelace.
leave it to the standard, uninspired same basic derailleur-driven sprockets we've been using since the 60's and box it in, centrally located in the frame, beef it up and make it bulletproof for any riding condition and then you have an engineering marvel. yes it's not for entry level bikes haha. but then how much do you have in your MB?
Engineering is all about tradeoffs. This is a good design theoretically because it moves the heavy weight of a transmission to the center of the bike, and also keeps it slightly lower (vs center of a wheel). However, it is a heavy implementation, bad for human-powered vehicles. Why is it heavy? Probably because they're trying to cram the functionality of a standard derailleur bike, with say 3 chainwheels and 6 sprockets, into a compact case. Conceptually, I think of the 3 leftmost gears as chainwheels of a derailleur bike, establishing a hi, mid, and lo range, and the 6 rightmost gears as sprockets of the rear derailleur. If they changed these from sprockets to gears and tried to put them into a case, leaving their diameters unchanged, the case would be too large. So they had to reduce their size, meaning the gears need to be heftier and heavier to carry the increased torque. Also, I believe sprockets transmitting power via a chain that wraps around half their circumference and thus distributes the load across many more teeth, can be lighter than gears, which transmit power across just one tooth at a time, a basic constraint. Also, the total number of actual physical gears inside the case of the Pinion is 18, vs just 9 (3+6) for a derailleur. The gear reduction/multiplication in a derailleur bike is done across the chain from chainweel to sprocket, quite thrifty in use of materials. The Pinion does all the reduction in the box up front, and still needs 2 additional sprockets to transmit the power to the rear wheel! I wonder if Pinion did this kind of theoretical analysis. Not that I am an expert or anything, just some thoughts.
*Who needs a special complicated gearbox that you need to build a custom frame around. Waste of time. A properly adjusted traditional system has worked fine for 60 years. Gimmick.*
before commenting, you should read the engineering paper. Of course there is friction, always... unavoidable, but the degree of efficiency is what counts!!! fahrradzukunft.de/20/wirkungsgradmessungen-an-nabenschaltungen-3/He ...and read this as well: PortmannHanspeter5 days agoI have a Pinion 1.18 with belt since 5000 km. Absolutely no problem. The expected lifetime will be 50'000 km. No maintenance necessary. Dust and dirt has no negative impact to the belt!
I am very happy that finally someone had the resources and will to build this. The principle of bigger leverage works and gears are just round levers. The increased mass of the bicycle is compensated with a better chain design out of robber. If you want to improve this concept further, please feel free to consider my recumbent design that has levers of 2000 mm plus combined with pulleys. It is designed to increase significantly the torque exerted by human powered vehicles.
The epicyclic gear at the end of the intermediate shaft is super intriguing.
Nice explanation Dan , and that would be a nice set up I think ,
no more Greasy chain and derailers ...... and a silent belt drive.
To those complaining about weight.... First rule of engineering is that EVERY solution is a compromise. There is no "best", only the most suitable solution for a given situation. I seriously doubt the designers have higher end carbon road bikes and the pro peloton in mind with this gearbox. But there are many other types of bike that really benefit from a sealed maintenance-free design with easy shifting. Commuter bikes, which favour robustness over shaving off a few grams, get lots of rain and grime, lots of shifts (many stationary) and not a lot of care or love. Robust, sealed gear units are a prime candidate for these types of bikes. Add in the growing popularity of electric assist (which weighs much more than this gearbox) and this makes a lot of sense.
Who cares about the weight I'm not a weight weeny
I'm particularly interested in the use of this gearbox for mtb'ing, having a sealed gearbox free from the dirt and dust, and having the weight suspended low down at the bottom bracket, rather than as unsuspended mass at the centre of the rear wheel... Checkout Zerode Mtb bikes, they've got a great looking bike doing this..
@@axiomicwe couldve had gearboxes for 100 dollars if bike culture wasnt as is. A depressed asian mechanical engineering student could make a working gearbox. Its nothing new
Thanks for your time in explaining the mechanism.
Very informative. It's what I was looking for on the net.
Love from Indonesia.
The functional combinations that refined engineering combines development with the simple pleasure of cycling.
Thanks for that, you safed my Presentation
Nice ! you learn something new everyday ..thanks for the clear explanation..
Thank you for posting this. I too would like to get my mitts on one for my recumbent trike. Hub gearboxes like the Rohloff are great, but they preclude the use of a Hub driven power assist, where as the Pinion would complement it. Yes you can get a 'mid-drive' motor like the Bafang, but these can give a lot of wear on the chain if you live around hills, (I live at the top of one :-( LOL). A hub motor actually improves the wear on the chain, as the torque generated by the chain is amplified by the hub directly to the wheel instead of onto the chain. I got 500 miles more on my last chain after fitting the hub drive!
There is a short review of a pinion drive as fitted to an Azub trike on "Bentrider online" if it is of any interest. Apparently the change is a little stiff when new, but after a few hundred miles they loosen up a bit.
The manner in which those (unseen) protruding pawls engage the various gears explains why the Pinion Gearbox is do difficult to shift under load. Riders say they have to ease off the pedals almost entirely before a shift will engage, which seems like a hassle.
I don't think in the future bikes will have gears.I like the thought put into the gearbox.
sweet
Thanks for making this video, very helpful
Wow, that's so much simpler than a hub! Simple is good, makes me want one.
A+ TO THOSE GERMAN PEOPLE .....THEY CREATE GOOD STAFF ....FROM MEXICO TO GERMANY LOVE YOU ALL!!!
I have both, like the pinion best. Gear down going up hill by just split second stop pedaling. Kinda like a harley trans too.
I'm really itching to get a Zerode Taniwha bike with one of these systems in it...
Many thanks for this explenation !
Developed by Porsche-Engineers who like bicycling.... just ART....
I think I figured out how the planetary gear on one side of the counter shaft works. The counter shaft is rotated by an engaged gear. The counter shaft has a gear selector shaft inside that is used to raise pawls. The counter shaft and the gear selector shafts rotate at the same speed. The shafts are connected by two planetary gears in series. The first planetary gear has a 4:1 ratio (input sun, output planet carrier, ring fixed), the second planetary gear has a 1:4 ratio (input planet carrier, output sun, ring fixed). Overall this is 1:1 ratio and doesn't seem to make sense. But if you rotate the second planetary gear's ring it will work as a phase shifter between the two shafts. This allows you to rotate the gear selector shaft relatively to the counter shaft.
I love single speed!
I love FIXED-GEAR!
Very well explained, simple to understand, but a very clever system.
@andrewkiyko7413: I beleive this is not exactly so. It seems to me that the way the (ingeneous!) shifter mechanism actually works is as follows: (a) The driving pinion is rotating the driven pinion. (b) The driven pinion is in turn locked to the camshaft by the appropriate pawl. (c) This pawl sticks out of the secondary shaft, hence is forced to rotate with the concentric camshaft, regardless of the planetary shifting mechanism (to which I'll get in a moment). So, per a specific gearset being engaged, the secondary shaft and it's inner concentric camshat are rotating together at the same angualr velocity. Now, how do we change gear? we must cause the inner camshaft to "phase-shift" with regard to the secondary shaft. This, If I figured it out right, is performed as follows: First let us define two planetary gearsets. Let’s call the inner set Gearset A, and the outmost set Gearset B (composing of SUN A, SUN B, RING A, RING B etc.).
Now, (1) At the end of the camshaft there are two SUN gears, SUN A, which is not positively connected to the camshaft and can spins freely around it (it is and idler, carries no functional purpose except structural support for PLANTES A), and SUN B which is positively connected to the camshaft and rotates with it.
(2) RINGs A and B are fixed, but RING A (the inner ring) is responsible for gear shifting and is rotating a fixed angle every shift. RING B is always stationary.
(3) Now for the clever bit: The planet carrier is common to both planetry sets. It carries PLANETS A and PLANTES B, and, as long as a specific gear is engaged, is an idler, i.e., it rotates freely.
(4) I order to shift gear, RING A is rotated in a fixed amount, while RING B is kept stationary. This Causes PLANETS A to rotate a small extra amount. This in turn causes the PLANET CARRIER to rotate an extra amount
(5) In gearset B, this causes PLANETS B to rotate an extra amount. With RING B being fixed, this drives SUN B (and hence - the camshaft!), rotating it by an extra amount. This results in the camshat being "phase-shifted", which translates to a different pawl sticking out radially, engaging another pinion in gear.
Very interesting video. Did you notice they have two lines of product. A p line and a c line. Do you happen to know the difference?
Thank you!
Wait wait, soooo the crank shaft is not connected to the cog that turns the rear wheel???
I wonder how the pawls will stand up to use over time.
I bet you can adapt this to a go kart, a small car or motorcycle. It would need an adapter to the engine and prop shaft, but I bet it could work.
I wonder how the weight and efficiency compares to a standard derailleur drive chain?
The randomness of gear order is actually anything but random. It is for balance, eliminating vibration.
Thanks. I figured there had to be an engineering reason.
Dan Burkhart And also so that successive gears (1-18) engage linked pairs of pawls in a certain order. Simple enough to map out the 3x6 sets.
"High"torque gears are better supported on the ends of the case, low torque gears on the center of the shafts due to bending loads.
Wonder if you have done a C1.12 "How it Works" video.
Thank you for your video on P1.18 & Rohloff.
When I said it was simple I was ignoring one thing. The pawls that engage the gears are on a rotating shaft unlike those in a conventional internal gear hub where they are on the stationary axle and engage the stationary sun gears. I would love to know how those rotating pawls are controlled by the pull-pull cables attached to the frame of the bike. ??.
They are also rotating
Nice explanation, thank you.
I want to order a standalone gearbox like this for an ebike build I am working on. However I can't find any sellers that actually have product on the market that I can pickup. Figured I could weld one on to the frame I'm looking at using. I really would like to have no slack in the chain.
That is a neat little piece of engineering. It would be interesting to know the input torque or horsepower specs on that unit.
pinion.eu/en/p1-18-gearbox/ they say it can handle 250Nm input and weighs 5.95 lbs
Nice! Thank you.
But...
It almost seems a waste to use a video format to present still photos. Too bad a moving model wasn’t available.
I know this is an old post... but watch this one: th-cam.com/video/rr1O8vwDY0A/w-d-xo.html
Шимано и Рохлофф поставили - дизлайки;( Пиньон самый лучший переклюк в мире Веселопедов !
But..thit type of gear are good or Not for Forest Roads, Mountain Road or Etc.
How much it weighs, what it's gearing width, what input torque will destroy it?
Oh, the last question: how much it cost?
Mike Franz cost
they say it weighs *2700g* and rated to 250Nm input torque
Thx
Torque looks Ok, but weight could've been lighter. Still, I need to know its price.
1400 Euro's.
Can you please assist me to buy this whole set . I really need this kind of gearbox for my project.
That's fantastic, I wonder how well it actually works in operation.
More or less hassle free. it's not as efficient as a derailleur, so you won't see these in road racing, but 636% gearing range with 11% between gears even steps without overlap is fantastic on tours. It's also extremely low maintenance. Exchange oil once a year or every 10000 km, that's it.
I experience the occasional disengagement of a pawl, especially when I don't let the shifting mechanism engage freely (i.e. keep some remaining force on the shift ring at the handlebar.) That results in a hearty "clunk" when the pawl engages in the next pocket.
Shifting down at the thirds of the range, where two gear pairs switch at the same time can also require more prominent unloading of the drive train. Normally it is enough just to shift down when the crank is vertical, thus input torque the lowest. Shifting 13 to 12 and 7 to 6 can be a bit more stubborn.
OTOH you can shift down over several gears at a red light and take off in the ideal gear. That's a big boon over a derailleur.
@@HotelPapa100 Thanks, very interesting. Happy riding.
I would think there would be some mechanical resistance compared to a rear cassette
Anyone know how much rotational drag this will create when freewheeling? Does it run dry or in oil, as gear oil is thick and will absorb energy. And what about the bearings, life expectancy and ease of servicing ...?
Is this currently available for bicycles like the THORN, KOGA, PATRIA...? How does it compare to Rohloff or Nuvinci?
I loved my Sturmey Archer bicycle gears (three speeds inside the hub). Then I got a fancy new bicycle with Italian gears. Fifteen of them, if I remember correctly. I never liked them and my interest in bicycling waned thereafter.
't was the opposite for me. My Sturmey Archer hub had terrible efficiency. Only the second gear, where the internal mechanics are locked, worked well. (May have been a mantenance issue; that bike took some abuse from 14 year old me.) My first 5 gear derailleur bike was an epiphany in comparison.
Why haven't i seen a pinion electronic controller/shifter similar to the sram axs system i mean both of technologies are already there.
Fascinating. It reminds me of an Enigma machine.
So cunning, these Germans!
?
What happens when it gets clog up in mud...no outlets to slip through.. the substitute chain that is..
I'm thinking if they built this thing with much narrower gears, the drag would be greatly reduced. Less surface area=less fractional surface, right?
Classical physics says no. Friction is proportional to the weight on the friction surface, not the surface area. Also, less surface area means more wear. (For example, narrow 11-speed chains wear faster than single speed coaster brake chains.)
Is this a RELIABLE and ROBUST gearing system like a cassette or a Rolhoff hub?
Thanks for this video. Very good explanation. However don't really understand how the shifting mechanism works tbh. I a typical igh, shifting is done by locking the sun gear with the pawls. But in this design, wouldn't the pawls have to be rotating together with the locked gear? How does sync up this rotation and what is the actual shifting action?
Basically what i'm asking is, do you have any more insight into how the shifting is achieved with the planetary gear hack in the pinion gearbox =)
You are quite correct, and you are almost there as far as understanding how it works. In a wheel hub, the axle is a non moving part, whereas here, the counter shaft rotates with the gears.
The pawl actuating cams must rotate with the countershaft as you point out. The planetary gear set you see on the end of the countershaft provides for switching the pawl actuators while the shaft is rotating.
That's about as far as I can go with the theory until I can either lay my hands on one, or find more detailed drawings.
On close inspection of the few 3d renderings of the insides of the gearbox it actually looks like there's two set's of planetary gears. That would explain how the switching shaft can be synced with the counter shaft, where i assume the pawls are mounted.
Do you think i'm getting closer...?
Man i'd love to see this mechanism working=) =) I'm so fascinated by it right now.
aaah.. is THAT why there are two wires going to the gearbox? One for each ring :P?
There are two cables because shifting action is pull/ pull, no spring return. Rohloff hubs work that way as well.
Check out this video.
th-cam.com/video/baaBgXTIyms/w-d-xo.html
Starting at about 3:34 you can see the ring gear being removed from the planetaries and the shifting gear being manually rotated.
Good tutorial
I think it works like this, or that or the other.......Do you get what I'm saying here??????
I really don't understand about the input and output shaft being the same shaft. I reallly apreciate if you can give or guide me to a clear explanation, sir.
My apologies if my explanation was not clear. If you go through it again, note that I showed the 6 gears on the input shaft farthest away from the chain side are all permanently coupled to the shaft, and transmit power to whichever of the countershaft gears is coupled to the countershaft. the three gears closest to the chain side on the input shaft are not coupled to the axle, so that gear cluster is driven by whichever of the three gears it meshes with. Think of the shaft that those three gears are mounted on as a hollow tube which the input shaft passes through but does not drive.
The hollow shaft you mention really made it more digestible to me, thank you sir.
wow, wondered how those work. I wonder why they went with helical on the last set. i suppose that's the granny gear with more torque potential. the array out different teethstrikes me as odd. are automotive gearboxes like that? i can see that the ratio has to have a whole number of teeth and toy on the same center to center.
The helical gear set is the low range gear, so it will be subjected to the most torque.
The teeth on the lower three gears on the close ratio side are cut much coarser than the top three That would be for strength given the constraints of overall width available within the box .
ready for twin electric motor bike conversion transmission
Since the shifters wasn't shown is this system basically a 3x6 drive? Because in a 3x6 drive you don't have 18 gears you have 18 ratio combinations with some of the combinations being redundant.
This unit has no redundant gears. There are 18 progressive ratios. Actuation is by means of a single shifter with dual pull/pull cables.
and it doesn't create an electrical charge ?
Good
Are they using the planetary cluster to achieve more ratios? Sounds like you are describing a manual gear unit.
The planetary set on the end of the counter shaft is the shift actuation mechanism.
A clutch would be dope
Dan Burkhart I believe a much more intuitive (i.e. lever-operated, indexed) shifting mechanism would contribute to the popularity of these products. Test riders seem to agree.
Efneo GTRO thoughts? See them on eBay and Amazon for under $1000 some of them for $531.
No experience with the Efneo, but looks like a good solution for a city bike. It can be retrofitted to a frame with a standard bottom bracket shell, unlike the Pinion which requires a proprietary mount.
So if i buy one I get the shaft?
do you think this thing will take weight off the rear wheel and possibly improve handling?
You'd think so, but what about durability? Never had any trouble with my Suntour VGT Luxe!
YES.... (imagine a car having the gearbox in the wheel....)
Is this Pinion system as RELIABLE as a CASSETTE gear system or the Rohloff?
OVERSIZED gears in an oil bath? They sure as hell may be. Might weigh a bit more, though.
It is as indistructable as a german tank....
How does the power get from the transmission to the rear hub?
By means of a chain or belt. I would have thought this to be obvious.
How we by this bicycle pl Give link
Am I right to say you need a special bike frame for one of these?
That is correct. It can not be retrofitted to a standard bottom bracket.
Shure... at the BEST place inf YOUR bike.... and it will L-A-S-T.....
Quando costa e dove si compra?
Italy - Verona
Can someone please explain what "drag" means as it relates to gearbox systems?
The sum of (a) contact friction between meshing gears (two pairs at any given moment), plus (b) sloshing of lubricating oil (temperature-dependent viscosity), plus (c) inertial momentum of the gear bodies themselves (which collectively weigh more than a cassette/chainring arrangement).
18,12,9,6
if you put this on a fixed gear bike, can you pedal in reverse?
The chain wheel freewheels, so back pedaling would not power the hub in reverse.
@@2wagondragonBurkhart that is a shame, there are so many applications for a bike gearbox with reverse.
What is written at 0:29
1938 Phoenix Mutaped Phoebus
Or you could add a hub gearbox, like the Sturmey Archer, and save a load of weight and the need to re-engineer the frame...
Or do both 3 gears at BB, 6 at hub for 18 gears total.
What is a rising pawl???
That's rising pawl. It is a pawl that when actuated rises out of the shaft and couples the gear to the axle.
Drag the weight and enjoy the loss of efficiency for cosmic maintenance issues when maintenance will be due.
The problems of this architecture are weight and encumbrance. Only race bikes segment is actually demanding a high number of ratios, but at the same time this gearbox is too heavy and too big for race bikes.
So in the end, it's nice ok, but has no commercial sense.
I don't think the images or your explanation helps.
It's just weird that not one single video YT can explain what actually happens when the gears are shifted.
Efficiency :)
A new idea for the germans is to make a reverse for a bicycle
Fixies already have a reverse engineered in....
Thanks bro
Is there a reverse? lol
I wanna see CVT bikes lol
That already exists. Look up Nuvinci.
Must be heavy as hell!
Why would they be heavy? You're not putting 400 foot pounds of torque through them. How much torque can your legs generate? Whatever the number a lawn mower generates more. So what do these gears need to be heavy for? They could be almost as light as an entire group set. Probably a number of ounces heavier do the weight of the case and whatever amount of oil it would contain.
More over, these gears could be hollow. Or made of a very light metal. Again. They don't need very much strength. If aluminum can work in this application it will be.
Bike engineer 1: So the problem is everything that's common sense has been done to death and we are in the red. Product suggests anyone?
Bike Engineer 2: Ah everything that's not common sense?
Bike engineer 1: Love it lets go with that.
Brasil vai demorar.☹
Bicycle RUSSIA - the BEST!!!
Kocmo isnt bad...but still under German leadership :)
There are good technic made in Germany. One disadvantage - very complicate and expensive...
Verbal explanations don't really work wéll for something līke thîs.
Graphical animation needed. At least a GIF
No se ha entendido nada.
Sigh, ....No overlap !!! What am I gonna do with my life ?
Who the hell down-voted this?
Someone at anitfa?
Michael McNeil Sometimes folks hit the wrong button. Antifa? Why don't you put some thought into why antifa have become so astonishingly necessary everyone knows or talks about it. You young competant people are the future, we boom and x are old and frightened.
The least thing you should know about anything is how to spell it. Apparently, you don't know the least thing about Antifa. Does that make you a Knotsie? Don't worry I can spell 'Nazi'. But you're enough of a bootlicker that you've become synonymous with Hitler's shoelace.
@@martind349 Domestic Terrorism NECESSARY? Okay, I know you voted for imbecile-Joe
Only gripshift.. Nahhh..
Left is right and right is wrong. 😡
Those Germans ......... something called a Pinion ............. not very polite. Why don't you invent a new gearbox then?
ULAN BİSİKLETTE BÖYLE ŞEYLERE NE GEREK VAR? ZATEN BİSİKLET SPOR AMAÇLI.
Leave it to the Germans to take a simple, cheap effective design and overengineer it into a monstrosity.
Not overengineering. Overthinking.
leave it to the standard, uninspired same basic derailleur-driven sprockets we've been using since the 60's and box it in, centrally located in the frame, beef it up and make it bulletproof for any riding condition and then you have an engineering marvel. yes it's not for entry level bikes haha. but then how much do you have in your MB?
Engineering is all about tradeoffs. This is a good design theoretically because it moves the heavy weight of a transmission to the center of the bike, and also keeps it slightly lower (vs center of a wheel). However, it is a heavy implementation, bad for human-powered vehicles. Why is it heavy? Probably because they're trying to cram the functionality of a standard derailleur bike, with say 3 chainwheels and 6 sprockets, into a compact case. Conceptually, I think of the 3 leftmost gears as chainwheels of a derailleur bike, establishing a hi, mid, and lo range, and the 6 rightmost gears as sprockets of the rear derailleur. If they changed these from sprockets to gears and tried to put them into a case, leaving their diameters unchanged, the case would be too large. So they had to reduce their size, meaning the gears need to be heftier and heavier to carry the increased torque. Also, I believe sprockets transmitting power via a chain that wraps around half their circumference and thus distributes the load across many more teeth, can be lighter than gears, which transmit power across just one tooth at a time, a basic constraint. Also, the total number of actual physical gears inside the case of the Pinion is 18, vs just 9 (3+6) for a derailleur. The gear reduction/multiplication in a derailleur bike is done across the chain from chainweel to sprocket, quite thrifty in use of materials. The Pinion does all the reduction in the box up front, and still needs 2 additional sprockets to transmit the power to the rear wheel! I wonder if Pinion did this kind of theoretical analysis. Not that I am an expert or anything, just some thoughts.
Thing probably weighs 20 lbs.
it weighs 2700g (5.95 lbs)
pinion.eu/en/p1-18-gearbox/
Dude, invest in a decent microphone, sounds like you're talking through your phone
*Who needs a special complicated gearbox that you need to build a custom frame around. Waste of time. A properly adjusted traditional system has worked fine for 60 years. Gimmick.*
Too heavy an to much friction
before commenting, you should read the engineering paper. Of course there is friction, always... unavoidable, but the degree of efficiency is what counts!!!
fahrradzukunft.de/20/wirkungsgradmessungen-an-nabenschaltungen-3/He
...and read this as well:
PortmannHanspeter5 days agoI have a Pinion 1.18 with belt since 5000 km. Absolutely no problem. The expected lifetime will be 50'000 km. No maintenance necessary. Dust and dirt has no negative impact to the belt!
Gabriel Paduraru well, it is not made for road bikes
Pretty old idea. Bit boring 😴
The pinion gear box is junk!! Can’t find parts in South America! Junk junk junk