@@Sirebellum1337 you mean he's playing a recording over the team chat? no way, he reacts to stuff in the game sometimes. he's clearly delivering it on the fly.
Talking abt midfights me: this is the easiest layup for an analogy I’ve ever seen, he’s gonna talk about chess openings or how soccer games start WR: so in competitive pokemon
I played a bit of 6s comp as a pocket scout, and i gotta say, all that stuff about "well 6s is kinda stale" goes right out the window in the moment when your entire job is to be a speed boost for your medic, protect your medic, roll out with your medic, stick with the pocket soldier and demo, cap points fast, deal with spam, and still have a chance to win the game with your entire team while remaining close enough to your medic to ensure they have protection and don't die immediately. we only played a couple of games, but those couple of games completely remixed my perspective on 6s, and I can understand if you're a grizzled player like b4nny with thousands of matches under your belt that it might get a bit repetitive after a while, but my mind was going a million miles a minute in my experience. Honestly was just Overwatch but more fun lol.
A lot of peoples are afraid that current tf2 comp "occupies" or "fill" a place that could be filled by more "fun" and "evolving" iterations that would be more open to things like we have in games where new content constantly rush in, but i do believe the space if not occupied by what tf2 comp has become would simply be empty, as there is no one able to bring in the necessary content influx to replicate what games like league or overwatch has.
Just because the meta is stale doesn't necessarily mean it is bad. The chess meta is also stale with minor innovations. When most people say the 6s meta is stale, what they actually mean is that 6s is boring and unfun to play, which is subjective. What I think most TF2 players are actually feeling but struggling to articulate is that competitive TF2 is a casual game that was retrofitted with a specific rule set that conflicts with the game's core design philosophy, and this is what they actually disagree with.
I feel the other reason also is that a lot how certain classes are represented in 6s. A lot of the off classes have VERY specific use cases 9 times outta ten so they feel very insulated in how they're intended to sort of be played vs how people generally play them and when they might even be allowed to by most teams. I feel that's why people seem to complain a lot more about 6s than other formats like highlander even when they're just as "stale". Same for map pools to a degree. It's like people feel the game restricts their style of interacting with the gamespace or how they come to understand tf2's core loop if they're not mains of the main 6s classes I feel. There's probably a bit of a "disonance" there and its boring to watch as a result for those players.
6's is more based around the game's core design philosophy than current vanilla TF2; the only thing that was "retrofitted" was all of the unlocks that were added way later that were ultimately bad for the core game in the context of keeping the game competitive at a high level. 6's has been around nearly as long as TF2 and at the time of the earliest ESEA seasons there were literally only 15 unlockable weapons in the game, the current ruleset is a result of adaptations and compromises made over time to maintain its focus on core TF2 design while not being too heavy handed on dismissing new content completely.
@@pagedMov Even if we disregard how TF2 has been played for the entirety of it's lifespan, limiting the teams to 6v6 with class limits instead of 12v12 radically changes the game in a way that the developers did not originally intend. Competitive TF2 and and TF2 are not the same game and never have been. This isn't bad and I don't mean to demean anyone's preference, but competitive TF2 isn't "preserving" anything.
i love the unpredictability of pubs where you have no idea what the enemy team is doing, or what your team is doing. it results in absurd situations like playing spy to sap the enemy teles and then realizing they don't have any because no one wants to play engineer, or a w+m1 pyro jetpacking into the enemy team and killing 5 people because nobody could shoot the pyro
Or your team completely unable to defend themselves from a push / make a push what so ever because nobody wanted to play medic or knows how to shoot, so everyone dies and its a steamroll. Pubs are so fun man😂
a game like tf2 allows for so much depth and freedom that you can watch someone play the game and know who it is without seeing their name. people often like to complain about games like these, where every game people run the same characters or the same classes. but to me, that's not a bad thing. it's a testament to the depth that each character has. the fact that you can have two people playing the same class but have it be played in a completely different style is something to be commended pinguefy's take on expression*
Individual expression is common in any game. But that has nothing to do with seeing the scene as "stale", as the video points out multiple times, overarching strategies either have little or no variance. That is not common in a competitive setting. It's weird to then conclude that the meta isn't stale. Meta isn't how a specific player expresses themselves, what micro-level decisions they make or tactics they use, it usually refers to something bigger, like an overarching strategy.
pub tf2 is stale because its all demoknights. i think solar light should release an update for tf2 unbanning the sticky bomb launcher from pub tf2 so we can actually push through sentry guns
6s is so deceptively complex because of strategy, movement, options and adaptation and theres still so much room for learning and improvement. The illusion of staleness comes from people who cant fathom how high the skill ceiling really goes
No, it's boring because it's not TF2, it's a mod based on TF2 in which a META is based on subjective things like: I like a particular game mode and style, anything that is not part of this is boring and therefore banned.
@@damianateiro Cap, movement is fun. It's a gamemode designed around letting movement classes shine. There are many other comp formats, this is the one that consistently attracts the most people. If vanilla TF2 was actually better, highlander would be the most popular comp format. It's not. Turns when everyone is good and actually trying, vanilla TF2 is way more boring than 6s (faceit was even more proof of this).
@@cinquine1 x100 is also fun. is x100 mods competitive? Oh, no? So fun alone doesn't make a gamemode competitive. Interesting... But 6's balance is based only on "fun"? Cool. Sounds to me like it's a casual gamemode then. Highlander isn't as popular because it requires more players, what a weird comparison to make, lol.
@@benshulz4179???? I brought up how fun it is because I was addressing the "6s is boring" argument. If OP had said "6s isn't competitive" I would have brought up how skill expressive it is, but he didn't say that. Obviously 6s is also competitive 3 more people doesn't explain the huge difference in quantity of people trying to play, not in the slightest. It also doesn't explain why faceit died.
A lot of what you talk about reminds me of chess, for example in chess each game starts almost the exact same way, with white usually making 1 of 3 moves, then black one of 2-3 responses to that move, etc. But you very quickly develop a unique situation that you’ve never seen before, similar to 6s
the meta may be stale but your videos certainly aren't. I'm a casual medic main but I find your ramblings about comp super interesting. thanks for posting.
just want to say bro, love these commentary videos, never really been invested in 6s (i watch too much highlander) but having such a calm and informative video to watch really has drawn me in. keep it up brother!
i think one of the most attractive things on the game is the unlock and strategy variety. When people see that not only there's banned unlocks, but unlocks that aren't banned, but are just really bad on a gamemode where winning is all that matter is understandably frustrating. I think 6x6 hosters should make custom balance changes to all banned and non-meta weapons so that this "figured out" meta can be more interesting and take from one of the most interesting aspects of tf2.
A ‘promod’ is a good concept, but I think that there is a high enough barrier to entry for comp, and a steep enough learning curve. Getting enough people to embrace it would be difficult, I’d like to see an experimental cup featuring a balance mod, but beyond that I’m not sure it would be widely adopted.
@@oiytd5wugho if people have bring this up for so long then is probably time to do something. id willing to do some changes myself, but im not really acostumed to the source engine neither i have the resources to run a server, so
Banning natascha was done because people weren't good. Can't be much of a pro if they ban things due to skill issues, huh? Before there can be a "promod" there needs to be actual pros in the scene.
As a casual player myself, I find 6s really fun to watch even with the current meta, and while it's my favorite comp format, it's kind of weird to think how it's mainly designed for 4 out of 9 classes, aka the generalists, leaving the other 5 to be situationally useful which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it makes the game feels less like tf2, if you get what I'm trying to say And yes I know about Highlander but I'm not a huge fan of it either, maybe I'm just weird :P
It surprises me to hear you say that casters don't mention the "why" during casts (in NA, I am assuming). As someone who casts (predominantly, but not exclusively) Highlander in EU, this is common practice for our casters and something in incorporate into every single one of my casts. Given the fact I can do this in Highlander, which has a lot more going on and therefore is a lot harder and gives you less time to explain things, I find it intriguing as to why the NA 6s casters don't do this. I also cast a bit of 6s, but this is not my specialty so I can't do as much of this, but I still punctuate my casts with as much explanation as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with you that this should be common practice for all casts!
It always seemed to me that "stale" is an incredibly subjective term when it comes to competitive play. People play chess in tournaments for fun all the time, why can't people enjoy a videogame that has some restrictions?
I think the same way, but I understand the thought for people being upset about staleness in 6s because of the variety of weapons and only 4 out of 5 classes being full time played almost all the time, they want some representation in 6s if it’s considered “the competitive of TF2” (which is dumb in my opinion) like pyro or engineer but can’t because it’s not a generalist, i can understand the thought behind it and all I’ll say is play them, test the class, push its limits.
There are more chess variant than tf2 competetive formats. Fischer's chess is a cool variant that brigthens up the game, but there isn't anything for c-tf2 for randomizing the classes (something of a 2 attack slots, 2 defense, 2 support (or some other tags) where each class could fit into 1 or 2 tags, but abide to the class limits)
The fact that checking for off classing by cycling through disguises is considered a new development of the meta is irrefutable proof that 6s is stale AF
Wide as an ocean, shallow as a puddle, is a fine description for Skyrim as a game. For a lot of people, that is their preferred form of variety. Others like Fallout New Vegas, where the depth and hidden complexities of many storylines gives even "the same content" a great deal of replayability.
Airblast is probably within the top 5 strongest singular mechanics in the entire game. I think it goes something like: 1) overheal 2) ubercharge 3) the ability to quickscope headshot as sniper 4) airblast 5) idk, medic scout speed or something? maybe the crossbow healing/"burst healing" Overheal and ubercharge are only allowed to exist because Medic is a single purpose class and the pivot around which TF2 is played, but makes it so that any medic count above 2 quickly becomes intolerable in pubs. Quickscope headshots are only allowed to exist because, frankly, players were less mechanically cracked in 2007 and the mechanic has existed for too long. I think Sniper would genuinely be more healthy for the game if restricted to The Classic and The Huntsman, yet at the same time wouldn't even be a bad class in any context. It would also be *much harder* to maintain the "everlasting sniper stalemate"^tm because with two slow-peeking snipers one of them *will be headshot* sooner and not later on top of simply having much heavier basic commit requirements. Something else overlooked is just how good The Huntsman actually is. It's easily one of the strongest weapons in the game and it simply doesn't see use because the stock rifles are just that much more broken. Lastly, airblast is only allowed to exist because pyro is otherwise objectively an abysmal class. I don't think it's healthy for the game to have a class whose entire existence is defined by/allowed due to a negation mechanic which is fully capable of entirely denying even "perfect counterplay" because, for example, rockets fire slower than the airblast interval. Demoman can overwhelm a pyro at max firerate for stickies specifically iirc on top of simply being able to outlast due to the limit of 10(8 with degreaser) airblasts. I also think, in regard to this video itself, there's a stronger argument for pub TF2 itself being fundamentally stale. The class selection and specific weapons existing allows for players to restrict the gameplay of other players *extremely heavily*. Are you having a really good game on any single damage class? The other team goes vaccinator. Hit f10+enter. Having a really good game on scout? Natascha heavy and minisentries say hi! Having a really good game on soldier? The 6000 hour pyro player is now babysitting the level 3 and you may no longer play the game without ubercharge. The other team has more medics? Get rolled over by rolling ubers. You are playing upward and the enemy team has a sniper doing exceptionally well? Good luck approaching the sniper even as spy due to the sheer player count and the fact that snipers good enough to make pubs not fun have basic awareness of spy time generally, meaning that you get to play counter-sniper against a sniper main. That goes great, especially when the enemy medic overheals the sniper! Simply find another server :) Pub environments extremely strongly constrain how you're allowed to approach the game to a degree I'd argue is actually less present in 6s than in pubs while being even more present in Highlander than in pubs, not like I can play 6s anymore because Serveme decided to VPN block and I don't trust their intentions in retaining historic join IPs correlated with steam IDs given all the times a weirdo has been in a prominent position in the TF2 community. Sucks because until then while I never expected to play RGL again(I'm not banned, but got tired of the constant churn of pug servers and general mental illness and cliques. There's an unreasonably large concentration of fundamentally unhealthy individuals playing TF2 and I just couldn't take it anymore.) I could still enjoy TF2center and every once in a while someone would drag me into a pug server.
The Clash Royale comp scene has this exact same attitude towards its from casual players. Meta decks are hated by many casuals since they think "copied" decks take less skill and "homemade" decks are the peak of skill. But the only reason they believe that is because they dontsee the depth in actual gameplay beyond what cards are being played, just like how TF2 casuals only can understa d gameplay diversity through offclassing
Tf2 is sort of in the same place counter strike is imo. Its a game thats been finely figured out to where its the micro strategies people make over time that develops into larger strategies. However, like counter strike, i would like to see more map variety every now and then to change how people play outside of snakewater, gullywash, and product
I dont understand why people who havent played sixes dislike that the meta is "stale". If anything, the meta's stability makes it easier to get into because the learning material youll find online will still be at least 90 percent relevant. Why would you want the meta to change when you haven't even come close to mastering it as it is? A stable meta also makes it way easier to track your improvement over the seasons as youre never gonna be like "season 32 really sucked for me as a heavy main because people started running sniper fulltime so i had to switch to maining scout which i suck at".
people dislike 6's do not play it you answered your own question, smartass. Also, 6's brainrot thinking that "non-stale" metas would have fulltime classes. Think real hard why that sounds stupid.
Its so weird. You never really hear about thid from fighting games, but people say tf2 and complain. People want to win, sk they'll do the best strete available, no different then card games seeinf thr same 3-4 decks, or smokes on cs2 I think rewlly what it is, games vecame too focused on ekther casusl or competitive, instead of trying to do both, its whwt gkt Lesgue as popular as it did, depsite dota all stars being more kf s competitive game.
1:11 Question answered. It's all figured out; It's stale. 2:18 You mean tactics and teamplay? You just said that larger overall plans of attack and defense are already all figured out, which means that strategies are stale. Your pokemon example is weird, as you just said the teams in TF2 are always the same. Not understanding difference between strategy and tactics is a common casual mishap, I understand why it happens. Nonetheless, hilarious video. Top tier dry comedy. Especially at 21:42 where apparently stalemates around mid are fine due to uber (expect if one team has heavy)
1:06 "mostly figured out" he literally gave you examples on the comp scene evolving to have more off-classing and tactics evolving as time goes on and you chose to ignore them just to say it's stale.
Yes, the META has been practically still for 6 years, because it is not a 6v6 competitive game, it is a mod like MGE. They base their bans on very subjective things like "fun" instead of looking at the statistics as such. You can see from afar a favoritism towards certain classes like leaving bugs that favor the soldier when in a real esport they would be banned, banning items that help classes, among many things. The reason I play TF2 is because of the huge variety of strategies, if I want to play a character in an almost static way I play Overwatch (I play it a lot but I know the game is made like that). The true representative of TF2 competitive is any mode in lander format, since it is in tune with what TF2 is and whoever says "but there are less fun classes" I'm sorry but they want to play Quake and not TF2.
It especially became a problem when Valve started taking the opinions of 6's players into account when balancing weapons. I will *never* forgive the 6's community for what they did to the GRU and the Eviction Notice.
@@HunterStiles651 GRU is still top tier in casual and comp, imo the change was 100% warranted. It used to give free mobility in rollouts/repositioning to the class that has everything except mobility. You have to be more smart with it now but it's still my default pick for heavy melee. Saying you will never forgive modern comp players for opinions that were shared by different people 10 years ago is properly unhinged though.
@@HunterStiles651 All the comp players did is tell Valve what weapons they had problems with, it was Valve who decided to nerf them into the ground instead of just tweaking them. Like, comp players didn't like the caber because it could one-shot medics, but it was Valve who decided this meant it shouldn't be able to one-shot anybody. And as cinquine stated, the GRU is still really good, if not better than before. The old GRU's only purpose was getting to the objective faster, but the new GRU can be used to retreat, or even to fight since it lost it's damage penalty.
GRU nerf made perfect sense even for casual. But yeah, the idea that a serious competitive format cares only about "fun" is laughable in it's own right. It's just a cope for bad players who haven't built up a specific skill. Removing things for balance reasons or health of the metagame makes more sense, but I guess a stale 2soldier 2 scout meta is just more fun than a serious competitive experience.
![[TF2] - Everything wrong with the guns in Team Fortress 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BWyTjAOCD90/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] - Everything wrong with the guns in Team Fortress 2](/img/tr.png)
entire team listening to their demoman make a youtube video for 34 minutes while they are playing their ass off :
its a recording
@@Sirebellum1337 no.
@@Sirebellum1337 you mean he's playing a recording over the team chat? no way, he reacts to stuff in the game sometimes. he's clearly delivering it on the fly.
@Sirebellum1337 it's not a recording I was there I was the scout, he said this verbatim in voice chat uninterrupted
@@SubPriestPepsiisn't it a demo
Talking abt midfights
me: this is the easiest layup for an analogy I’ve ever seen, he’s gonna talk about chess openings or how soccer games start
WR: so in competitive pokemon
I played a bit of 6s comp as a pocket scout, and i gotta say, all that stuff about "well 6s is kinda stale" goes right out the window in the moment when your entire job is to be a speed boost for your medic, protect your medic, roll out with your medic, stick with the pocket soldier and demo, cap points fast, deal with spam, and still have a chance to win the game with your entire team while remaining close enough to your medic to ensure they have protection and don't die immediately. we only played a couple of games, but those couple of games completely remixed my perspective on 6s, and I can understand if you're a grizzled player like b4nny with thousands of matches under your belt that it might get a bit repetitive after a while, but my mind was going a million miles a minute in my experience. Honestly was just Overwatch but more fun lol.
A lot of peoples are afraid that current tf2 comp "occupies" or "fill" a place that could be filled by more "fun" and "evolving" iterations that would be more open to things like we have in games where new content constantly rush in, but i do believe the space if not occupied by what tf2 comp has become would simply be empty, as there is no one able to bring in the necessary content influx to replicate what games like league or overwatch has.
Just because the meta is stale doesn't necessarily mean it is bad. The chess meta is also stale with minor innovations. When most people say the 6s meta is stale, what they actually mean is that 6s is boring and unfun to play, which is subjective. What I think most TF2 players are actually feeling but struggling to articulate is that competitive TF2 is a casual game that was retrofitted with a specific rule set that conflicts with the game's core design philosophy, and this is what they actually disagree with.
I feel the other reason also is that a lot how certain classes are represented in 6s. A lot of the off classes have VERY specific use cases 9 times outta ten so they feel very insulated in how they're intended to sort of be played vs how people generally play them and when they might even be allowed to by most teams. I feel that's why people seem to complain a lot more about 6s than other formats like highlander even when they're just as "stale". Same for map pools to a degree. It's like people feel the game restricts their style of interacting with the gamespace or how they come to understand tf2's core loop if they're not mains of the main 6s classes I feel. There's probably a bit of a "disonance" there and its boring to watch as a result for those players.
6's is more based around the game's core design philosophy than current vanilla TF2; the only thing that was "retrofitted" was all of the unlocks that were added way later that were ultimately bad for the core game in the context of keeping the game competitive at a high level. 6's has been around nearly as long as TF2 and at the time of the earliest ESEA seasons there were literally only 15 unlockable weapons in the game, the current ruleset is a result of adaptations and compromises made over time to maintain its focus on core TF2 design while not being too heavy handed on dismissing new content completely.
@@pagedMov Even if we disregard how TF2 has been played for the entirety of it's lifespan, limiting the teams to 6v6 with class limits instead of 12v12 radically changes the game in a way that the developers did not originally intend. Competitive TF2 and and TF2 are not the same game and never have been. This isn't bad and I don't mean to demean anyone's preference, but competitive TF2 isn't "preserving" anything.
i love the unpredictability of pubs where you have no idea what the enemy team is doing, or what your team is doing. it results in absurd situations like playing spy to sap the enemy teles and then realizing they don't have any because no one wants to play engineer, or a w+m1 pyro jetpacking into the enemy team and killing 5 people because nobody could shoot the pyro
And that didn’t happen in 6v6
Or your team completely unable to defend themselves from a push / make a push what so ever because nobody wanted to play medic or knows how to shoot, so everyone dies and its a steamroll. Pubs are so fun man😂
a game like tf2 allows for so much depth and freedom that you can watch someone play the game and know who it is without seeing their name. people often like to complain about games like these, where every game people run the same characters or the same classes. but to me, that's not a bad thing. it's a testament to the depth that each character has. the fact that you can have two people playing the same class but have it be played in a completely different style is something to be commended
pinguefy's take on expression*
where have I seen this before......
I mean... preach brother lmao
@@ubeLOL pinguefy's take on expression
tf2 weapon reskins have always seemed like a strange case to me
Individual expression is common in any game. But that has nothing to do with seeing the scene as "stale", as the video points out multiple times, overarching strategies either have little or no variance. That is not common in a competitive setting.
It's weird to then conclude that the meta isn't stale. Meta isn't how a specific player expresses themselves, what micro-level decisions they make or tactics they use, it usually refers to something bigger, like an overarching strategy.
pub tf2 is stale because its all demoknights. i think solar light should release an update for tf2 unbanning the sticky bomb launcher from pub tf2 so we can actually push through sentry guns
6s is so deceptively complex because of strategy, movement, options and adaptation and theres still so much room for learning and improvement. The illusion of staleness comes from people who cant fathom how high the skill ceiling really goes
No, it's boring because it's not TF2, it's a mod based on TF2 in which a META is based on subjective things like: I like a particular game mode and style, anything that is not part of this is boring and therefore banned.
@@damianateironone of that has remotely something to do with being boring...
@@damianateiro Cap, movement is fun. It's a gamemode designed around letting movement classes shine. There are many other comp formats, this is the one that consistently attracts the most people.
If vanilla TF2 was actually better, highlander would be the most popular comp format. It's not. Turns when everyone is good and actually trying, vanilla TF2 is way more boring than 6s (faceit was even more proof of this).
@@cinquine1 x100 is also fun. is x100 mods competitive? Oh, no?
So fun alone doesn't make a gamemode competitive. Interesting... But 6's balance is based only on "fun"? Cool. Sounds to me like it's a casual gamemode then.
Highlander isn't as popular because it requires more players, what a weird comparison to make, lol.
@@benshulz4179???? I brought up how fun it is because I was addressing the "6s is boring" argument. If OP had said "6s isn't competitive" I would have brought up how skill expressive it is, but he didn't say that. Obviously 6s is also competitive
3 more people doesn't explain the huge difference in quantity of people trying to play, not in the slightest. It also doesn't explain why faceit died.
Honey quick get up! Wild_Rumpus uploaded!
A lot of what you talk about reminds me of chess, for example in chess each game starts almost the exact same way, with white usually making 1 of 3 moves, then black one of 2-3 responses to that move, etc. But you very quickly develop a unique situation that you’ve never seen before, similar to 6s
the meta may be stale but your videos certainly aren't. I'm a casual medic main but I find your ramblings about comp super interesting. thanks for posting.
21:17 oh wow that anti-bomb trap actually worked
holy heck thanks for pointing that out, that's SO satisfying
Do you think the beggars is viable? and what are your general thoughts on it
@@swift2437 it enables insane aggression that can't be replicated with other launchers which is good but isn't very strong defensively which is bad
@@Wild_Rumpus so yes depending on team strategy around it.
just want to say bro, love these commentary videos, never really been invested in 6s (i watch too much highlander) but having such a calm and informative video to watch really has drawn me in. keep it up brother!
The play at 21:13 is crazy
i think one of the most attractive things on the game is the unlock and strategy variety. When people see that not only there's banned unlocks, but unlocks that aren't banned, but are just really bad on a gamemode where winning is all that matter is understandably frustrating. I think 6x6 hosters should make custom balance changes to all banned and non-meta weapons so that this "figured out" meta can be more interesting and take from one of the most interesting aspects of tf2.
you're talking about making a promod for tf2. This has been discussed to death over the last 15 years, nobody's really keen on doing that
A ‘promod’ is a good concept, but I think that there is a high enough barrier to entry for comp, and a steep enough learning curve. Getting enough people to embrace it would be difficult, I’d like to see an experimental cup featuring a balance mod, but beyond that I’m not sure it would be widely adopted.
@@oiytd5wugho if people have bring this up for so long then is probably time to do something. id willing to do some changes myself, but im not really acostumed to the source engine neither i have the resources to run a server, so
Banning natascha was done because people weren't good. Can't be much of a pro if they ban things due to skill issues, huh?
Before there can be a "promod" there needs to be actual pros in the scene.
@@benshulz4179 bro hasn't played comp _once_
Is basketball meta stale? They banned literally all unlocks!
As a casual player myself, I find 6s really fun to watch even with the current meta, and while it's my favorite comp format, it's kind of weird to think how it's mainly designed for 4 out of 9 classes, aka the generalists, leaving the other 5 to be situationally useful which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it makes the game feels less like tf2, if you get what I'm trying to say
And yes I know about Highlander but I'm not a huge fan of it either, maybe I'm just weird :P
It surprises me to hear you say that casters don't mention the "why" during casts (in NA, I am assuming). As someone who casts (predominantly, but not exclusively) Highlander in EU, this is common practice for our casters and something in incorporate into every single one of my casts. Given the fact I can do this in Highlander, which has a lot more going on and therefore is a lot harder and gives you less time to explain things, I find it intriguing as to why the NA 6s casters don't do this. I also cast a bit of 6s, but this is not my specialty so I can't do as much of this, but I still punctuate my casts with as much explanation as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with you that this should be common practice for all casts!
It always seemed to me that "stale" is an incredibly subjective term when it comes to competitive play. People play chess in tournaments for fun all the time, why can't people enjoy a videogame that has some restrictions?
I think the same way, but I understand the thought for people being upset about staleness in 6s because of the variety of weapons and only 4 out of 5 classes being full time played almost all the time, they want some representation in 6s if it’s considered “the competitive of TF2” (which is dumb in my opinion) like pyro or engineer but can’t because it’s not a generalist, i can understand the thought behind it and all I’ll say is play them, test the class, push its limits.
There are more chess variant than tf2 competetive formats. Fischer's chess is a cool variant that brigthens up the game, but there isn't anything for c-tf2 for randomizing the classes (something of a 2 attack slots, 2 defense, 2 support (or some other tags) where each class could fit into 1 or 2 tags, but abide to the class limits)
The fact that checking for off classing by cycling through disguises is considered a new development of the meta is irrefutable proof that 6s is stale AF
Wide as an ocean, shallow as a puddle, is a fine description for Skyrim as a game. For a lot of people, that is their preferred form of variety. Others like Fallout New Vegas, where the depth and hidden complexities of many storylines gives even "the same content" a great deal of replayability.
Would ctf have a stale meta
another banger video, keep up the great work :D
Is the concept of adrenaline stale?
yk your game's basically perfect when an outsider calls it "stale, and thus, boring"
21:18 lol
Airblast is probably within the top 5 strongest singular mechanics in the entire game.
I think it goes something like:
1) overheal
2) ubercharge
3) the ability to quickscope headshot as sniper
4) airblast
5) idk, medic scout speed or something? maybe the crossbow healing/"burst healing"
Overheal and ubercharge are only allowed to exist because Medic is a single purpose class and the pivot around which TF2 is played, but makes it so that any medic count above 2 quickly becomes intolerable in pubs.
Quickscope headshots are only allowed to exist because, frankly, players were less mechanically cracked in 2007 and the mechanic has existed for too long. I think Sniper would genuinely be more healthy for the game if restricted to The Classic and The Huntsman, yet at the same time wouldn't even be a bad class in any context. It would also be *much harder* to maintain the "everlasting sniper stalemate"^tm because with two slow-peeking snipers one of them *will be headshot* sooner and not later on top of simply having much heavier basic commit requirements. Something else overlooked is just how good The Huntsman actually is. It's easily one of the strongest weapons in the game and it simply doesn't see use because the stock rifles are just that much more broken.
Lastly, airblast is only allowed to exist because pyro is otherwise objectively an abysmal class. I don't think it's healthy for the game to have a class whose entire existence is defined by/allowed due to a negation mechanic which is fully capable of entirely denying even "perfect counterplay" because, for example, rockets fire slower than the airblast interval. Demoman can overwhelm a pyro at max firerate for stickies specifically iirc on top of simply being able to outlast due to the limit of 10(8 with degreaser) airblasts.
I also think, in regard to this video itself, there's a stronger argument for pub TF2 itself being fundamentally stale. The class selection and specific weapons existing allows for players to restrict the gameplay of other players *extremely heavily*. Are you having a really good game on any single damage class? The other team goes vaccinator. Hit f10+enter.
Having a really good game on scout? Natascha heavy and minisentries say hi!
Having a really good game on soldier? The 6000 hour pyro player is now babysitting the level 3 and you may no longer play the game without ubercharge.
The other team has more medics? Get rolled over by rolling ubers.
You are playing upward and the enemy team has a sniper doing exceptionally well? Good luck approaching the sniper even as spy due to the sheer player count and the fact that snipers good enough to make pubs not fun have basic awareness of spy time generally, meaning that you get to play counter-sniper against a sniper main. That goes great, especially when the enemy medic overheals the sniper! Simply find another server :)
Pub environments extremely strongly constrain how you're allowed to approach the game to a degree I'd argue is actually less present in 6s than in pubs while being even more present in Highlander than in pubs, not like I can play 6s anymore because Serveme decided to VPN block and I don't trust their intentions in retaining historic join IPs correlated with steam IDs given all the times a weirdo has been in a prominent position in the TF2 community. Sucks because until then while I never expected to play RGL again(I'm not banned, but got tired of the constant churn of pug servers and general mental illness and cliques. There's an unreasonably large concentration of fundamentally unhealthy individuals playing TF2 and I just couldn't take it anymore.) I could still enjoy TF2center and every once in a while someone would drag me into a pug server.
The Clash Royale comp scene has this exact same attitude towards its from casual players. Meta decks are hated by many casuals since they think "copied" decks take less skill and "homemade" decks are the peak of skill. But the only reason they believe that is because they dontsee the depth in actual gameplay beyond what cards are being played, just like how TF2 casuals only can understa d gameplay diversity through offclassing
Tf2 is sort of in the same place counter strike is imo. Its a game thats been finely figured out to where its the micro strategies people make over time that develops into larger strategies. However, like counter strike, i would like to see more map variety every now and then to change how people play outside of snakewater, gullywash, and product
You claim comp tf2 isn't stale, however trade_minecraft, pl_wutvile, and tc_hydro still arn't in the comp mapool.
pl_wutvile is coming out next scream fortress
Can you make video about importance of teleporters in 6s?
unlocks not mentioned at all?
Has there been any attempt to play 6s in TF2c?
im tired, boss
Yes. If you play any other class than demo, scout, soldier, sniper, or medic in comp you will not have fun.
what hud do you use?
ahud
@@Wild_Rumpus thanks man, nice video
I dont understand why people who havent played sixes dislike that the meta is "stale". If anything, the meta's stability makes it easier to get into because the learning material youll find online will still be at least 90 percent relevant. Why would you want the meta to change when you haven't even come close to mastering it as it is? A stable meta also makes it way easier to track your improvement over the seasons as youre never gonna be like "season 32 really sucked for me as a heavy main because people started running sniper fulltime so i had to switch to maining scout which i suck at".
people dislike 6's do not play it
you answered your own question, smartass.
Also, 6's brainrot thinking that "non-stale" metas would have fulltime classes. Think real hard why that sounds stupid.
@@benshulz4179 Sir I have spent many of my days trolling the internet. I know your tricks and shall not be fooled.
Yes
Yes, next question
Its so weird. You never really hear about thid from fighting games, but people say tf2 and complain.
People want to win, sk they'll do the best strete available, no different then card games seeinf thr same 3-4 decks, or smokes on cs2
I think rewlly what it is, games vecame too focused on ekther casusl or competitive, instead of trying to do both, its whwt gkt Lesgue as popular as it did, depsite dota all stars being more kf s competitive game.
I think the game itself is just “stale”, there hasn’t been a major content update for 7 years lol
“YeS”
1:11 Question answered. It's all figured out; It's stale.
2:18 You mean tactics and teamplay? You just said that larger overall plans of attack and defense are already all figured out, which means that strategies are stale. Your pokemon example is weird, as you just said the teams in TF2 are always the same.
Not understanding difference between strategy and tactics is a common casual mishap, I understand why it happens.
Nonetheless, hilarious video. Top tier dry comedy. Especially at 21:42 where apparently stalemates around mid are fine due to uber (expect if one team has heavy)
Yuo need a hug
Pls ignore this commenter they are a troll. In another video they said trimping has more depth than sticky jumping
1:06 "mostly figured out" he literally gave you examples on the comp scene evolving to have more off-classing and tactics evolving as time goes on and you chose to ignore them just to say it's stale.
@@capnfapn Isn't that a commonly accepted opinion?
@@benshulz4179 i agree on this, i thought this was a accepted opinion?
Yes, the META has been practically still for 6 years, because it is not a 6v6 competitive game, it is a mod like MGE. They base their bans on very subjective things like "fun" instead of looking at the statistics as such. You can see from afar a favoritism towards certain classes like leaving bugs that favor the soldier when in a real esport they would be banned, banning items that help classes, among many things. The reason I play TF2 is because of the huge variety of strategies, if I want to play a character in an almost static way I play Overwatch (I play it a lot but I know the game is made like that).
The true representative of TF2 competitive is any mode in lander format, since it is in tune with what TF2 is and whoever says "but there are less fun classes" I'm sorry but they want to play Quake and not TF2.
It especially became a problem when Valve started taking the opinions of 6's players into account when balancing weapons. I will *never* forgive the 6's community for what they did to the GRU and the Eviction Notice.
@@HunterStiles651 GRU is still top tier in casual and comp, imo the change was 100% warranted. It used to give free mobility in rollouts/repositioning to the class that has everything except mobility. You have to be more smart with it now but it's still my default pick for heavy melee.
Saying you will never forgive modern comp players for opinions that were shared by different people 10 years ago is properly unhinged though.
@@HunterStiles651 All the comp players did is tell Valve what weapons they had problems with, it was Valve who decided to nerf them into the ground instead of just tweaking them. Like, comp players didn't like the caber because it could one-shot medics, but it was Valve who decided this meant it shouldn't be able to one-shot anybody. And as cinquine stated, the GRU is still really good, if not better than before. The old GRU's only purpose was getting to the objective faster, but the new GRU can be used to retreat, or even to fight since it lost it's damage penalty.
GRU nerf made perfect sense even for casual. But yeah, the idea that a serious competitive format cares only about "fun" is laughable in it's own right. It's just a cope for bad players who haven't built up a specific skill.
Removing things for balance reasons or health of the metagame makes more sense, but I guess a stale 2soldier 2 scout meta is just more fun than a serious competitive experience.
@@benshulz4179 lol the GRU nerf is just as pointless as the base jumper, they only did it because the minds of 6v6 players were broken
6:39 skinwalker