Baffle Step Compensation | What is it?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ม.ค. 2019
- In this video I'll explain what baffle step loss and baffle step compensation is. I'll use speaker measurements to explain what is physically happening as well.
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Excellent video.
So glad you're using metric system !
Me too! It is way more accurate
Thanks for all these excellent videos on filters and crossovers. It’s a steep learning curve to go from basic to slightly better than basic design.
Nice to see you, and my other TH-camrs coming back to making regular videos. Glad you got to spend some time off though. I hope you're all charged up, and ready to make some great content too. Today's video was a great start. Thank You, and Welcome Back.
I'm going to watch this when I get home. I was curious about this the other day. Thanks for making these videos.
Great video! Such a fantastic explanation!
Jugdjing His big jacket on him he need a woman HOT ,fantastic u got the ideea ….
Whith a umbrela …But once again 🤭
Excellent video, keep the videos coming!
Thanks for doing these vids… look forward to more.
One thing I've noticed, is even small changes in the crossover values make big tonal changes to the sound, just a db here or there changes the color and tone of the sound, so easily, a slight change in the graph but a big change to what you hear, amazing. Also just slight changes to baffle and driver placement, time alignment of the tweeter make huge changes too the sound too. I found if you start adding flares and even just slight horn loading too the tweeter it changes the response dramatically.
Interesting subject , enjoyed this one
Very well explained ! Helped me a lot Thx
Great job Ryan!
Excellent explanation. Thank you!
Makes a lot of sense: case in point:
Cerwin-vega does not compensate for boxes, for the most part the bass is just heavy, sloppy boom.
Companies like ADS (rip), ATC, Kef and others really engineer the crossover so the speaker accuracy is intact, regardless of narrow or wide front baffle. My argument against the new designer narrow baffles is that if they are "the answer" to diffraction, why can companies produce such accurate and transparent wide baffle speakers? Engineering FTW \o/
Scott Lowell definitely narrow baffle don’t offer any real advantage. Just a marketing trick because people like the aesthetics.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I was also not impressed that they cheaped everything down over the years, and decided two-way designs were "just as good" as three ways that are properly executed. Not for me they aren't.
Scott Lowell that is very true. There’s always a tremendous quality difference jumping up to a 3 way. Certainly bigger and costlier though.
Thanks for this explanation and a happy new year to you. Hope this will be the year where your channel takes off and gets 100K subscribers :)
Some manufacturers (like Guru and Ino Audio) design their speakers with the wall right behind the speaker taken into account, utilizing the constructive interference go gain more oomph in the lower end and specifying a certain size and thickness of absorbing material on that wall to absorb the destructive interference that happens at higher frequencies with this placement.
50dB on the vertical scale would make more sense.
Morgan Andreasson yes 50db would, but that’s one of the silly annoying things with sound easy and one of the primary reasons I would not ever buy it again. You can’t adjust the scales!!!! How ridiculous is that?!?
5:14 outa the way son, were doing speaker building XDD
Great video! I’m glad to see you back at it. That’s a great trick you did with the crossover. Another common practice is two woofers to create a 2.5-way speaker. The second woofer is crossed lower than the first so it fills in the rising response, as I’m sure you know...but could be mentioned as an alternative as well.
Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building yes that’s a very good point. I thought about mentioning it but the video was already pretty technical and didn’t want to create any confusion.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers May I suggest you create 'sections' on your channel that divide up your videos into different topics. I've done that with my channel and I'm hoping I can create a section called 'beginner Series' . Then it allows you to have some videos for beginners, and other videos that are more advanced. Maybe make a section called 'advanced'?
exactly what I am trying to do! But how do I calculate the frequency cutt-off? And at what distance on the baffle should I put the second driver? Thanks! I hope I can get at least a hint!
Great subject matter when it comes to diffraction some interesting baffle design that I've seen and heard and owned for example infinity IRS were the baffle is square to the front / back then on the left and right side it comes out to a triangle let's say out to approx 10 inches. 36 inch tall great at projecting sounds forward mids/highs but the bass in a separate box 2 / 10 inches poly woofers ported /2 biwired to amp with lots of headroom for power in an other set up with my 15 inch woofer /fostex horn lots of bass goes behind the speaker to compensate I built a curved Veener baffle rather large in size for each speaker stiff and sturdy to project bass forward works great certainly made a difference if you have the space IT ALL SOUNDS RADICAL BUT THATS WHAT WE LIVE FOR AND MY WIFE WONT OBJECT
very good......something all diy ers should know. On the high frequency all going forward.....I would like to ad to that if I can. if you take a tweeter, the lower treble at the crossover point will wrap around the box, only the upper top end will be blocked and shoot forward.
Great video!
Well done.
Happy new year! Really enjoy your videos, I’m off to check out your recommended web site.
MrGpsjim thank you!
Very interesting video, thank you
Awesome! thank you!
To add on to the video : waves (including sound and light) start "ignoring" physical obstacles when they are of a similar size/order as the wavelength. Hence the low-frequency "large" wavelength waves start ignoring the physical limits of the box.
@ Impulse Audio... Very well explained. One thing you could have done in XSim (@ 9.30 min) in your video, was to press the hold button without compensation (BSC) and then apply the BSC in the 2nd order crossover. This would have showed how much compensation was applied in the crossover.
bsl bl oh ya, that would have been a good visual. Darn. Next time I need that sort of visual I’ll do that, thanks.
I made some bookshelves using the HDS Peerless NOMEX 5.25" and the Vifa XT25-TG30 and I did not bother to compensate for baffle step, so it sounds thin, but bass is not the best from a small speaker anyway. I though instead adding a sub. The down side too to filtering down to bass with such a small mid- woofer is the unwanted am distortion at higher volume levels. However adding sub is not easy as its hard to get it to match. The other issue if you make the speakers sound amazing no sub needed you then tend to want to crank them up til they pop, and the Nomex cone 5.25" have been discontinued. Even with the xt25, you can hear some amazing detail. One Issue I have is when, i fiddle with the crossover with xsim, then test it with music, I find my self upping the mid and treble, so its loud and detailed, where some tracks sound amazing but others sound harsh, i tone it down, and all its all kind of lifeless or a bit dull.
Nice 👍
It's cool that you're the designer of the 1099's, I never made the connection. Did you design any of the smaller speakers? Great video as usual, I'm learning so much from this channel, please keep it up.
wcg66 there was the Fusion 10, but I think it was pulled. Erich has been busy but he keeps planning to add the Life S5 to the site. Hopefully he can get some of that stuff put up.
Thanks...
Im going to build a big speaker soon that uses the HDS Peerless tweeter 810921, and the SB17MFC35-8 mid-woofer with one mid just doing mid-range mid bass down to 80hz less am distortion, in its on chamber, and 6 more drivers just for low bass only, in a over sizes book shelf box, up on stands, better than full tower designs, got a old speaker system i made already like this and its very very clear and powerful using old vifa pj17 drivers, yep the xt25 ring radiator is in those too.
Good Video
Two things:
1.) Excellent video and explanations.
2.) I'd love to see a comparison between using the crossover filter to do baffle step compensation vs using a baffle step circuit, both one you manually tune in x-sim and one generated off a calculator (or just an entire video on crossovers done with measurements and xsim vs ones done with calculators). The reason for this is that I enjoy designing and building speakers, but realistically don't have the space or equipment to properly measure them to use x-sim (or experience with x-sim for that matter).
Matt Kerper I’ll keep that idea in mind.
If you don’t have space for the equipment, you can always download the measurement files from my driver tests and use them in xsim to play around and even design a speaker.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers so, I'm dumb and didn't even think of that lol. I'm definitely going to try that, if for no other reason that to get used to x-sim and to compare results myself of measurements vs calculators that I've used, though 90% of the time the speakers that I want to use don't have measurement files available or I want to use in an atypical configuration (I really like open baffle designs), so I've gotten really used to the good ole trial and error
The problem with using a BSC circuit when there already is a crossover, is that you end up with (a minimum of) two coils in series with the woofer. That's a lot of added resistance and a lot of wasted money. If you use a ferrite coil to keep the resistance down, you lose fidelity (bad coil can add a lot of THD). Been there, done that, learned the hard way.
BTW you don't need any special equipment or space to measure and design a decent 2-way speakerbox. You'll run into problems when you'd like your measurement to be useful below 500Hz. However you can still compensate for the baffle step, you just need to know the frequency - and there's an easy formula for that.
WTF!!? I didnt know the golden boy oscar dela hoya is also audio genius! Thank you maestro
You should do more on refraction
Its a simple concept: Imagine you're in a city and round a corner a vehicle with a siren on is coming towards you, it would be dull and get more and more high frequency as it got the the corner. The reason is because the low frequency is a large waveform that reaches round the corner whereas the high frequency cannot and is blocked.
Pretty good analogy!
Simply brilliant for the average ear...can you determine whether dual 18inch subwoofer sound better horisontally vs vertically, indoors vs outdoors. Thanks. Jempies
jeremy philander an 18” sub should sound the same in all directions except the changes caused by the room. I’m not sure I understand the question maybe?
Try making a rotating plate with degree marks to rotate the speaker on when taking measurements. This is what is used in anechoic chambers.
Hello, and thank you for this amazing video! I've been looking for this information everywhere! But since I have understand how to compensate within the crossover filter, thanks to your clear explanantion, I want to use another approach... I am building a floorstanding 2.5 way speakers... and I have researched about this matter, and I have learned what .5 way means. What I am trying to do now is using the second woofer driver, in paralel with the first one (6.5" woofer). This second woofer is for baffle step compensation... but I have no idea how to calculate the frequency cutt-off... I didn't find any information on how to do this! Thank you!
Personally I have not found 2.5 way speakers to work very well. If you do want to do that then it will depend on the width of the baffle and driver response.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Indeed, the width of the baffle! So I calculated the f3 (the frequency of transition between 2pi and 4pi, if I understood that correctly...)... but I don't think that THIS is the frequency cuttoff... when you say "the driver response" you're reffering to SPL? And if so, how is that help me? I'm sorry, but I am a begginer in building my own crossover network... I have just discovered the Xsim, and I am fascinated by it, because it shows the response in real time! Thank you!
Question. Have you, or when will you "step up" to Open baffle designs? And if not why haven't you? I'm hearing from quite a few others that it's the creme de la creme in speaker design. I've got a 4 way (active crossed) setup using open mids and I've never heard anything like it
I’ve dabbled. The problem with open baffle is the complexity. I would definitely go 4 way active and use a closed subwoofer to help below 150Hz. Finding the right tweeter is tricky. And I would use as narrow of a baffle as possible. The information around OB is really dicey. There’s only a few sources I trust. As soon as I see a wide baffle I question the design.
Personally I found using large format woofers with a constant directivity horn to provide 90% of the OB experience, no rear wall reflection, half the complexity, 10x the efficiency, half the cost, and possible to do it passively.
Great explanations. Thank you :)
How is the speaker project coming along?
Arnand de Jager oh it’s coming. I’d like to be further along but I can’t get 100% happy with it. I’ll be updating soon.
Is that simple baffle step circuit all you needed for the rest of the xover needs? As in is it that easy to build an xover for that woofer or do you have to manipulate it further and that much more?
DozyProductions that’s all for the baffle step. There’s no need to add any other complication to the XO. There are resources on the web that have calculators for baffle step compensation, but they should be ignored. Just design the XO to work with the tweeter and provide a good frequency response.
Hi, was thinking of making a simple sealed box like this for my RS125P-4 I have laying around. But then came to think about standing waves. If I look at your box, I would estimate it to be about 130mm deep? That would mean a distance from driver-panel-driver of 260mm. Which should show a standing wave at about 1300hz. Looking at 5:35 it seems to be a bit wiggly in that area of the graph. Am I missing something in this assessment? I dont think I hear so much about standing waves in discussions, and there are so many box designs that are totally square, so maybe its not a problem in reality? Do you think standing waves is a problem that demands an angled backpiece?
bingoberra18 standing waves are an issue. I see lots of people try to address them with various techniques. Stuffing like insulation goes a long ways. You are definitely on the right track!
Great video, like the others, Ryan, clear explanation! So, when the frequency response measured should it be in slight slope to the highs or still we're trying to achieve a straight horizontal line? Could you make a video on how to calculation impedance correction network for a speaker to make an easier load on the amp? Thanks.
Roman Kolosov I would say straight is the most common, but some people like a slight down slope. It’s important to note that a straight frequency response anechoic yields a down sloping in room response. This is what people generally like. Making a flat response using measurements in room will usually sound really bad.
Thanks very much! So this means since I don't have an anechoic chamber and make measurements in a prepared room I stick to the downsloping frequency response.. h-m
If using pe provided frd and zma files, imagine those do not include baffle losses since they often mention infinite baffle representation. Have not set up to do good home measurements, have mic but not setup to do the impedance plot. Is there way super impose expected baffle step onto xsim responses? For instance, if know have 8 inch baffle, then estimate need to have curve say 3db up at x freq and 0db by x+n freq?
Tim Rawson there is software than can show you what will happen to the response for a given baffle. “Edge” is one of these programs if it’s still available. I believe there is also a program that lets you change the file based on the baffle. It will also extract phase for you if your files don’t include phase, so that’s important. Last but not least, you can build in a slope up below 800hz for an 8” baffle and play with how that sounds because baffle step loss is fairly predictable.
hi thanks for sharing, might be a silly question, but why do speakers have the driver fitted onto the narrow side of the speaker, wouldn't turning the enclosure 90 degrees and mounting the driver on the larger flat side compensate a small amount?
Ian grieve Yes that does lower the frequency where baffle step occurs. People like the aesthetics of a narrow speaker though. It takes a very wide speaker to get much benefit.
Great explanation Ryan, helped me a lot. I'm making a full range speaker with a single driver, would you still put some sort of crossover in it, or would you just use a simple baffle step compensator?
Richard Parnell for a full range driver, you could use a simple BSC circuit. It’s one of the only times they make sense. The online calculators aren’t very good, but better than nothing.
Richard Parnell you could also try listening to it wide open. Some full range drivers are ok like this. And if you do try a BSC circuit, buy several resistors. They’re very cheap and you can try a few different values of resistance to hear what sounds best.
Hello, first of all a happy new year 2023. To the "baffle step" theme - when calculating the "baffle step" frequency based on half the baffle width and the speed of sound, then a 1. 5" chamfer has to be added to calculate the baffle width? For example the baffle is 10" wide and the chamfer is 1. 5" wide on both sides - does this mean that the calculation is half baffle so 5"+ 1. 5" = 6. 5" and then 340m/s divided by 6. 5" = 2060 Hz ?? or in this case is only calculated with 5". Well, so the new year begins already with the "old" questions! Regards Stefan
You can ignore the edge treatment, although, 2000hz sounds too high for a 10” baffle. If you can measure the response, you’ll have it baked into the measurement.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Hello, Thx for fast replying! This Year I'm going to build the "Alpair 12.2p Small Reflex" designed by Scott Lindgren, adding a reinforced baffle with 10 mm speaker offset and aditional much thicker bottom-, top- and side panels with 40mm MPX for enough chamfer width 'cause Linkwitz and your diffraction and edge treatment test made it clear!!!! And of course there will be a 4 dB BSC! Regards Stefan
But you still use the free air zma file right? I was wonderig the other day because with the enclosure the impedance changes slighty.
S u m t r i x when doing XO design it’s best to use the in box impedance measurement (zma file). But to be honest, in most cases it won’t matter. Three ways would probably be affected when crossing low. Otherwise not a big deal.
Looks like the baffle step and diffraction files can be created with the diffraction tool in Vituix then imported into XSim as the Acoustic effect. Need to do this for each driver and ignore the file name in the acoustic effect blank. I think it is still better to measure baffle effects outdoors.
Definitely better to measure the actual thing, but if you’re in a pinch you could certainly do this.
What about a phase response? It seems when you compensated a baffle step by changing values of crossover elements you've been changing not only frequency response but the phase response as well. And then it might not match with needed phase response for seemless crossing to a tweeter. The task could be somewhat more complicated than it looks at a first sight.
Илья Основиков yes the phase does change with either baffle step compensators or crossover filters. You always have to work it together with the tweeter crossover. When ever the frequency response changes, the phase changes. You have to make everything work together. Not easy you’re right.
MCM audio select is a great value speaker series I'd like to see you test these out.
altops I thought MCM no longer sold drivers.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers no they still do just added new mods and lows drivers ton an old set of Infinity R3s
just stringing some ideas together, excuse my blissful ignorance, please..
My HTM 6's for stereo , in MY room, are phenomenal - clarity, detail and (source dependent) generate a impressively immersive sound stage . . they can make DSU, Neo:x disappointing
so as the baffle is about 20 inches from the front wall and using the 8" SEOS horn
Will "treatments" of the front wall enhance clarity ?
not to be too vague . . .LOL
Are there any charts that show similarly how much sound is reaching around the baffle and then reflecting back toward the MLP? Is the energy of this reflected sound so low as to be of no issue?
I could take the stands and make it so I could stuff about .66- .75 ft^3 Roxul directly under the whole speaker, so this may be capturing more rear-ward sound off the 6.5" driver and some from the waveguide.
the distance differential of 2 feet and the delay of about 2 miilliseconds . . is it detectable to instrumentation but not my 71 year old ears.
and TY for an explanation in "so that's what he's talking about" english.
William Tomkiel it is measurable and audible although because you have a healthy distance probably not objectionable. Putting absorption on the rear wall may help improve it even more but it sounds like things are working. The room reflection can sometimes be a positive thing. I would experiment with insulation if you have any, but wouldn’t get carried away.
TY, Dude.
and- FTR
that partridge in the pear tree? >sounds naturally bright and clear, too . .
my gawd you guys are geeks
Great video!!! It seems that you know very well all stuff related to speakers design. I think that you should be working as a design engineer for some of the most important speakers manufacturers of the world, or you just start your own company and beat all of them with not much effort. Congratulations!!!
Pablo osvaldo Penizzotto thanks for the compliment. Speaker companies don’t make much money, otherwise I’d be interested.
Let's be realistic Pablo. Do you really think speaker manufacturers don't have people that know all of this? This all is still a pretty basic stuff.
To tell you the truth, passive crossovers aren't that interesting today, you can do much more with DSPs and much better with active crossovers (if you have the money).
Tomas Kuruc good to know. Thank you for letting me know. Anyway I think this guy is sharing very interesting information that In didn’t know before with such a detail.
@@pabloosvaldopenizzotto1098 Oh yes, this is very useful for anyone who'd like to design their own box and do it properly, because what you can see on this channel is the only proper way. Other DIY youtubers should watch this, so they know how to design their own crossover and not use some universal bs that never works, and so they know how to mount a tweeter (Kirby)
Not to change the subject but just wondering if you ever plan to build a large speaker? A large 2 or 3 way with say a 12 or 15 inch woofer? I would love to see your take on something akin to a Klipsch cornwall or forte or bob crites cornscala. Something I would definitely be interested in. Keep it up sir.
Jason Smith yes actually I just measured Acoustic Elegance TD15M woofers yesterday. I’ll have a video about those. I’ll be matching an Iwata 600 horn to them. It’ll take a bit of time to edit the videos and get onto the fun stuff. But it’s coming.
Sweet. You rule. Im excited to see your solution for mounting that big ol horn.
How much BSC do you apply for near wall placement, say front baffle 50cm from the wall?
It’s a bit of a myth that rear walls help with bass. I personally still prefer nearly bull BSC, or 4 or 5db minimum.
you look a bit like thatdudeinblue
great video
Looks like you're using Bodzio soundeasy for measurment. been using that since before it was soundeasy first version i think it was for windows 3.1 on floppy disks called DSS or something like that.
WV591 cool. I haven’t been using it long. Maybe if I had used it for years I would like it, but I do not care for it.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers... it's not simple that's for sure.but it is all in one package (box and x-over design and optimization and actual driver and speaker measurement and so much more) nobody else has that for the price. but the more he adds more complicated it gets. i stopped at rev 12 . Arta is nice measurement software.
WV591 agreed!
Hope you are still around. LOL. So, I guess I didn't get how adjusting the values in a 2nd order xover at 2K in a two-way design has an effect on baffle step loss in the 150-500hz range.
I’m still around. Just no time to do projects, which is how I do videos.
If you play around in a XO simulator you’ll see how adjusting the values will fix baffle step. No good speaker designer will use an actual baffle step compensation filter.
At what volume did you do this test in db. Its pointless if you dont do it in volume ratings and plot it on a graph. 77db to 99 db.
jeremy philander the Y axis is decibels. But I’m not sure why this would be pointless if I used a relative scale on the y axis. Baffle step loss is the same no matter what volume, unlike distortion and other tests. In any case I used 2.8V drive voltage and you can see the volume on the Y axis. Phase is also on the Y axis but I don’t show phase as it’s pointless here.
Can i show i a screen dump on my project in xsim? Im working on a 3-way design
Jacob Berg the best place for that kind of feedback is a forum or Facebook group. Not sure if you can show a screen dump on a TH-cam comment. I hang out at avsforum but haven’t been there much lately. I go by tuxedocivic there so you can tag me and I’ll comment.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers that would be great! I have an account there. You seam like a real nice guy! You do great stuff for the hifi community
I find my self adding bass drivers, rather than toning down the woofer and padding the tweeter. Because, to get bass out of a small speaker, leads to unwanted am distortion, so I rather just add a sub, or more woofers.
That’s not really the same thing, but I agree adding subwoofers is how to achieve great sound.
a good graphic equalizer would make all this stuff redundant.
Not really.
DIYSG ? 2 x F15's, 3 x 88 Specials, 4 x Volt 6, 2 x HTM6, 2 x F4Q4 1 x F6 MTM,
and a partridge in a pear tree . .
William Tomkiel sounds like a nice setup!
It's not ALL in the same room. LOL
but I could try . . it's all very sweet, asarose247
Quality products packing /shipping, masterfully applied science, incredible ROI for DIY and AYI
Customer Service like you wish the entire rest of the world would wise up to . .
NOT an AD> just a very satisfied customer
What happen in case of Inwall speaker, sound just cannot get in the back, so bass should improve ?
Yves Laurin yes it improves a lot and it’s awesome. Darn, I totally meant to say something about that in the video and forgot. I actually use inwalls in my home theatre and love how much more power I can get out of them. And no reflections off the back wall, because they’re in the back wall.
In-wall is just an infinite baffle set-up. So the driver will behave just like on the spec sheet (if it's accurate).
@@westelaudio943 So it is a good thing then.
no need for baffle step compensation due to baffle size, no diffaction because of the edge of the baffle.
That looks ideal for home theater as oppose to music listening where you have to position the speakers for that sweet spot positionning
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers That is exactly what I replied to somebody else, did you make your own inwall or buy something off the shellf ?
Yves Laurin I made my own. LOVE them. So many benefits.
I don't see any way in X-Sim to simulate the Baffle. Did you use an FRD file you created from measurement with the driver in a baffle?
Greg Olsen do you have the latest version? There should be a baffle function that allows you to rotate and check off axis and baffle step etc.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I have an older one on an older PC but downloaded it today on a different PC and checked off the box that asks to check for updates upon opening. So I think so. Thanks.
All I see along the top bar for pulldowns are File, Circuitblocks, Addgraph, GraphtoFront, Options, About, Tips
In the Driver information when you right click there is a new field for Acoustic Effect I haven't seen before.
2017 is the date in 'About'. I don't see any updates that are newer.
2:42 - This is (one reason) why many Hi-Fi (and other) speaker manufacturers offset the tweeter on the horizontal axis so that a different set of diffraction frequencies exist either side of the tweeter, rather than the same one both sides.
Jim Stanley correct. Although at some point off axis you end up with the same distance so it isn’t a perfect solution.
I have a video about diffraction if interested.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Yes, true, but then (when the distances equal; off axis) the energy levels are often much lower and the resulting interfere and other effects (as they present themselves in the test plots/charts) are usually less concerning than the reverse approach.
You mention from another video that you need more space for your family and that you may not be able to produce video for a while, I think it would be a good time to talk about your inwall setup for your home cinema ( Eminence delta 10A and SEOS12 with Denovo DNA360) and if you had to redo it, would would you do differently. I believe the waveguide is no longer available.
Yves Laurin not a bad idea for a vlog type video. I can tell you I wouldn’t change a thing. Running them for 7 years now and still amazed! Not bored of them at all. In wall is a huge huge advantage.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers if you do make that video, please provide alternative to what you use back then as some part may have been discontiunued
what is the best way to reach you??
arya sundar I can be reached by email ryan@impulseaudio.ca but please know that I check only every 2 weeks and don’t respond to people asking for me to help them with their design. My videos are there to help with the design.
I have sent u a mail and it is in the postal office to be picked up.. @@ImpulseAudioSpeakers
arya sundar Oh yes, ok I got a notice on my door yesterday. I’ll pick it up today. Didn’t realize who you were!
I am excited and cant wait to be part of your channel. I wnat to see you make a cool build with theses speakers and
want you to educate your subscribers as you go along the build.
“For those of you that like feet” 😳
Baffle step is a loss of SPL output (typically mid bass to upper mid) caused by the rear output of these frequencies being sufficiently out of phase and to cancel out the output of the front frequencies. Anything above certain degree of phase shift will cause a audible cancellation of upper bass/mid range suck out i.e. thin sounding. It sounds thin because of the reduced SPL level relative to the higher frequencies. As rightly said, high frequencies go forward (but are prone to diffraction) and the listener discerns them as a higher SPL relative to the bass, hence the thinness of the sound. Standard theory points to a maximum 6db difference above a given frequency - this is baffle step. Compensation is done by reducing this difference, but be careful because in practice the 6db step is not uniform across the frequency range. Unless I am mistaken, your video misses the reason why phase shift causes the loss of SPL and instead gives a slightly misleading answer. Your explanation of the front upper bass/mid range being loaded by the rear needs to state that it is being loaded by out of phase output which causes the thinness in the sound. If they were both in phase there would not be a thinness in the sound. A graph showing the phase difference would help to explain how the cancellation works.
Are you thinking of open baffle? If the bass frequencies were out of phase the output would be zero.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers No, any standard real world box has to radiate into full space at lower frequencies. A loss of energy will be caused either by diffraction or out of phase refraction. The loading of front frequencies by returning rear frequencies would not lead to a thinness in the sound (as concluded y the video) if they were in phase, it would just result in smearing in the sound (because of floor/wall/ceiling boundaries) and a higher output in some frequencies and less in others. Cancellation effects would occur at some frequencies leading to a suck out/dip at those frequencies. All speakers suffer from 6db baffle step loss, except those using an infinite baffle (which in reality do not exist in real world designs). You can model the effect in software by shifting the phase response of two drivers relative to each other to see the effect on the overall frequency response. The phase characteristics of a mid range are different from a woofer and at the crossover point out of phase signal sources will either boost or reduce the overall response. This is why sometimes the phase will be reversed on a given driver to get a flatter signal.
@@PAC-fp9hy sorry, I think we disagree. There is no backwave in a closed box to be out of phase. The 6db drop is the transition from half space to full space.
Instead of "projected of the baffle" term I would rather use "reflected of the baffle".
Илья Основиков well it doesn’t really reflect. The sound is constrained in 2pi space due to the baffle. It doesn’t go toward then come back and reflect of the baffle. It just can’t go backwards. Either way tells the intent though so if you prefer reflected that’s fine.
Bruh do you have heat in your shop, as I see you wearing a winter jacket often . Can’t see you breath thankfully lol
No I don’t. In one of my videos you can actually see my breath 🤣
Same issue here . Someday I hope to have my shop insulated though . Have actually gone in thinking I’d be spending ten minutes , and ended up being in the shop for an hour and a half at -10C in a Tshirt lol
oh my goodness, no. you did not compensate for baffle step losses. that can only be done whit a shelving filter.
Oh look, *ANOTHER* US website selling awesome speaker gear that is impractical financially non-sensical to ship to the UK :(
Sigmatechnica ya super sorry about that 😐 I know the feeling living in Canada. I’m endorsing a company that doesn’t even ship to us, but I have a way of getting it sent to relatives in the states so I’m fortunate. I feel for you though.
1:58 You say, "The distance for the sound to travel from the center of the woofer to the edge of the baffle is 80mm which corresponds to a frequency of 4,250hz". At 2:52 you say, "any frequencies higher than 4,250hz will be re-projected forward causing diffraction". Those statements are correct, the narrow baffle you are using can only create baffle diffraction above 4,250hz so why do you even mention frequencies below 4,250hz?
You have tested your speaker in open air so the omni-direction lower frequencies dissipate behind the box leaving slightly elevated directional upper frequencies which only project forward. This is not a problem to be corrected because no hi-fi speaker is designed to be used in open air, they are all designed to be used in a room with the speaker against a wall which increases the bass because the wall prevents the omni-directional lower frequencies from dissipating behind the speaker.
Your video about "baffle step compensation" has the guy at the video below totally confused, even though he doesn't realize it. He thinks putting a speaker in a box lowers the bass !
th-cam.com/video/h9EdOMI28js/w-d-xo.html
Dream Diction I’d have to watch the parts again to see what you mean. It’s not a hard line at 4250 and I disagree that it doesn’t matter about the losses in the baffle step region because we listen in a room near a wall. If you measure anechoic and then in your room you will still see the loss trend in your room measurement, and you will see big suck outs in the response because of the rear wall reflection.
The important take away is that diffraction is audible and should be dealt with in most situations for ultimate fidelity.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Baffle diffaction ONLY affects frequencies ABOVE those frequencies which have a wavelength shorter than the distance between center of the speaker and the edge of the baffle. In your case this is 4,250hz so why are you even mentioning frequencies below 4,250hz? By mentioning "80hz" you have totally confused "123Toid" who now thinks baffle step affects the bass and he now wrongly thinks putting a speaker in a box reduces the bass. He credits you for giving him this "knowledge". Link to his video given in my previous comment.
You say, "If you measure anechoic and then in your room you will still see the loss trend in your room measurement and you will see big suck outs in the response because of the rear wall reflection". WRONG! When your measure outdoors the omni-directional frequencies below 300hz will dissipate in all directions but when you put the speakers against a wall in a room, the wall will force all the omni-direction frequencies FORWARD so the bass will be much louder in a room.
The only way you could make such an obvious mistake is because you have never actually played music on speakers outdoors and compared the sound to the same speakers playing the same music with the speakers against a wall in a room.
Dream Diction Baffle step loss is very much related to diffraction which is why I talked about it in this video. And sorry but you really don’t understand what happens with the rear wall reflection. No all of the sound is reflected forwards. Not even close. And 1/4 wavelength reflections will cause suck outs. That is physics. I’d do a video to show this to you but I’ve promised a video about XO design that Id like to do next.
I’ll try and find time to watch 123Toids video. It’s not my responsibility if someone misunderstands how baffle step loss works. I believe the information in both of my videos is correct. If I’ve made a mistake I review it and willing to correct it. I don’t see a mistake here.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers When you are outdoors, NONE of the omni-directional frequencies below 300hz are reflected forward because there is no wall. In a room there is a wall to reflect the omni-directional frequencies forward, that's why the bass sounds much louder in a room and much softer outdoors. Try it with music, the difference is obvious.
Dream Diction well ya that I of course agree with. Maybe I misunderstood, but your original comment said this is not a problem we have to deal with. Well it is a problem and we have to deal with it. Just google baffle step compensation and you’ll find endless discussions about it. And rear wall reflections do cause suck outs at the 1/4 wavelengths. BUT I do agree that the sound indoors is much more full than outdoors due to the reinforcement from ALL boundaries (floor and ceiling count). Indoors does not completely eliminate the problem though and many times a full 6db of baffle step compensation is desired.
Great! Thank you!