Couple of folks are asking about measurements and thats fair/reasonable. The pair that Danny heard are now under review here at NRD and i'll follow up with everything I can - first impressions, sound clips with commentary, comparison videos against the Sapphires, measurements and of course - a full--blown review. Im eager and anxious! X4s... Let's dance!
@@yuckysamson That was not Ron's family making racket in the background. A good friend was there for a visit and that was his family (with kids) walking in on us.
I received my X-4s about a month ago. I was inspired to get them as a result of Ron at New Record Day sharing sound clip videos that included several traditional box speakers and speakers like the Spatial Audio Labs Sapphire M-3s and X-5s. I own a few other more expensive traditional box speaker systems, but none of then are as capable as the X-4s when it comes to sound staging, imaging, and making instruments sound like they are truly in the room. Clayton was also willing to build a matching pair of open baffle subs for me. I had them install two GR Research 12” - 16 ohm open baffle servo sub drivers in each of these two baffles. Fortunately, Clayton also had a slightly used pair of XLR Rythmik servo plate amps (these are hard to find right now). These open baffle subs take the low end down a little farther than the X-4s can do on their own, but the X-4s really don’t require them. I am still working to get the subs and the X-4s to integrate as well as I would like. I plan to seek advice from Danny on this issue. In summary, I have been thrilled with these speakers so far, and I look forward to getting the subs tuned or modified to integrate even better.
This is why I have the Spatial X3 in my upstairs system and the GR Research Super 7 in my downstairs system. 2 of the best speakers on the planet. Coming from me that's saying something as I've heard a lot of speakers (a lot!) and IMO the speaker is THE MOST important part of the system so I am very fussy and demanding. Spatial and GR Research make incredibly good speakers.
M3 Sapphire owner here. In addition to the comments made by Danny and Clayton, it is important to debunk the myth that open baffles have lean bass. It just isn’t true. I’ve never had more satisfying bass, after years of struggling with boomy ported box speakers in my room. I can’t see myself going back.
Two very knowledgeable audio experts totally sold on the open baffle benefits. Different perspectives but they both essentially arrive at the same conclusion. As fo many non-expert listeners.
I'm glad to see that the Spatial speakers get Danny's stamp of approval. After seeing the junk crossovers in so many speakers it's very hard to know what companies you can trust.
Spatial Audio has the lower price point M (6/4/3) Sapphire series open baffle speakers and they also sound pretty good!! :) I've been rockin' a pair of the M4 Sapphires for about a month now and I'm quite pleased with their sound signature.
I'm confident that the Spatial's sound great. Unfortunately, they present two barriers for many of us, perhaps most. Cost and the need for the large listening space that open baffle speakers require. Cost can be ameliorated somewhat but a large space where the open baffle can be placed far enough from the room's walls may simply not be an option.
I own a pair of Magneplanar 3.7s. I emailed an inquiry to GR Research about the feasibility of improving them past 3.7i levels. Danny responded quickly regarding his upgrade kit and what it could do for my 3.7s. Now all I have to do is to save up for the kit.
I have a semi open design but different to open baffle. It's a coaxial or FR driver mounted about 1--2 cm above the speaker hole in the box (with an air gap around the driver). The speaker hole has a 50 mm deep bass vent tube running into the box from the speaker hole. And make these speakers with oversize boxes. Usual wadding inside box. Tweak the driver gap with soft sprinkler hose as spacers (squash hose with screwdriver for best gap). For small drivers it's 1 cm (average). Have top and bottom screws different gap for less resonance. For most boxes have the larger gap on the bottom to slope drivers up a bit (instead of down). I make sloped face plates so I can have the larger gap at the top (for optimum acoustics). They sound real cos of a 3D effect. Spacial like a tube amp. Only really works with FR or coaxial drivers. Mine have a woofer on the bottom firing directly into the floor, downwards. With 1" high stand stubbs to let the bass out. The residual med (hardly any) goes through the top driver gap all around the FR or coaxial driver. Out of phase and still "point source" sounds amazing. Acoustic delay that gives the med that addictive 3D spacial tube sound (even more than just a single FR driver without the woofer). And the bass is great too, warm, deep and puck on the kick. I have just the FR mounted like that in oversize boxes and the bass sounded good but just a little bit bass shy. Frustrating, so I added a woofer of the same 5" diam (on the bottom, facing the floor). The speakers are simply at another level! You can hear the kick hammer hit the kick drum skin and the kick sound is full and deep. They are short floor standing boxes. I also made another similar pair of 5" FR with a 6.5" woofer in larger flower pot boxes, and some 8" coaxials in large wood boxes and a 10" woofer (same basic design). I also modify my drivers to fight resonance and to extend highs on my FR drivers. That's too hard to describe in a comment. How about an encyclopaedia?
Danny can you please do a tour of your listening room? I'd love to see the acoustical treatments you've done, maybe even before and after measurements of the room.
Hey Danny, you are a great believer of minimizing the mid and high units drivers center, in order to get better of axis responds. Spatial audio clearly doesn't adhere to this philosophy, how do you explain they still achieve great imaging? Also, I think you like narrow baffles in order to minimize baffle step loss. Again, how do you think spatial audio gets great results with a broader baffle? And lastly, you seem to prefer to get great bass with multiple smaller driver units, also in great contrast with Spatial audio approach. Any comment on that difference?
Good questions. The center to center spacing of the drivers dictates the crossover point. With the drivers spaced as far apart on this model it will dictate a fairly low crossover point, and in this case that is exactly what they have. The crossover point is at a low 750Hz. There are clear advantages to small baffles. This design uses a tweeter in a wave guide and that controls the dispersion to some degree and minimizes so of the baffle size issues. It worked and sounded great. There are always advantages in the use on multiple drivers. Minimizing exertion allows for faster settling times. In this case two woofers are being used down low and they have quite a bit of surface area. So neither move too far at average listening levels.
I'm from Norman Ok and was getting in to hifi in the 70's while CS was. I owned two different models of NL's and even went out to their plant. A friend of mine just saw Leonard Bernstein, one of the owners of NL, at a funeral recently.
I have gone back to coffins, my triode masters were great but the tone of my new Triangles won the day. Now that I know the OB sound would luv to hear the X4
Great stuff. I had a pair of Norman Labs speakers back in the 70s. I loved the sound of them. Had to reassign to an overseas location and the USAF wouldn't ship them. He's good pedigree! Greg
The blurb in your discussion concerning room loading with Dipole Subwoofers was an interesting eye opener for me. I very much enjoyed this collaboration and would have loved to have heard the X-4’s w the Servo Subs!
You're absolutely right. Dipole excites and interacts the room volume entirely differently. Siegfried Linkwitz' superb web database is a great source on this aspect, ... he detailed every element of this throughout his life's work. Dipolar excitation manifests itself as cleaner LF room decay times. Just as you want clean decay time of HF drivers, clean decay of the room is vital... it strips away an overlay of unnecessary heavy blur. Danny's brief impression is spot on; @5:51
Picked up an older pair of M3 Holograms today. This was my first open baffle experience. The low end is so impressive. I have a well treated listening room but man the bass is so much different. My room is so much more open sounding and it doesn’t get loaded like it did with a ported sub. I have them 4 feet into my room. At 20” wide and 42” tall, it is shocking that they can disappear in the music. Granted I bought these used but they are the best $500 speakers I have ever heard 🤓
You had me 'quite curious' the last time you were talking about open baffles, but I'm rapidly approaching the 'need to know for myself' state of mind. Cheers 🍻
This was me, bought and built the nx otica with triple driver servo subs. Blows your mind. Check out my videos on my channel of my system vs a 600k system. You be the judge.
It's like if you have driven a 20 year old Hyundai your whole life, and someone offers you a ride in a brand new 7 series Beemer. It is just so much more than you are used to it is addictive. I went active open baffle about 12 years ago and I have no intentions of going back to boxes for music.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering: That sounds like fun! I was thinking of building one and making it active just to test out. I'll never spend thousands on any speaker in my lifetime, not when I can build the same thing myself for only hundreds. So building one is probably the only way I'll get to demo one, and active is easy so that was my thinkin on that. Do you only use two of them in your system? I'm all about home theater, I wonder how would 9 open baffle speakers work in a room? Cheers 🍻
@@Finite-Tuning the great thing about OB is exactly that it is an open baffle there really isn't any building to do. I actually have two different main speakers because I couldn't hear any difference between the two prototype designs I made. The first one I built used a flat piece of 19mm MDF, at the top I have a RAAL 140-15AM dipole tweeter with the MDF cut down to the same size as the face plate (check out Madisound to see the tweeter). The second speaker I have two vertical pieces of 5/8" x 1-1/2" light pine, again the RAAL dipole is mounted to the face plate holes, so there is no difference in baffle size between them, only the tweeter face plate. On the first speaker I have the mids mounted in the MDF with only a small amount of baffle showing and the sides rounded over with a router. The second speaker the mids are suspended by light chain bought from a hardware store. The 18" woofers are behind the main speakers. There are two distinct types of open baffle speakers. What I have which is pretty much called baffleless open baffle, and open baffle where you have a distinct baffle. The reason boxes have a forward sound to them is largely attributed to the front face of the box, if you have a big baffle you can wind up having the same problems as a boxed speaker. The draw back of the baffleless setup is that you wind up with a lot more sound cancellation between the front and the rear of the driver. What Danny has done with his speakers is a cross between baffleless and baffled. By using a narrow front baffle he has most of the advantage of the baffleless speaker, but the wing sides gives them advantage of the wider baffle by keeping front and rear waves from colliding and cancelling each other out. The really great thing about open baffle it is really hard to muck things up totally. Whereas a box, you get dimensions or volumes wrong and you can turn a half decent driver into something really crap sounding. While you can use virtually any driver in an open baffle there are some that are more open baffle friendly. Active makes finding the right crossover points so much easier. As for home theatre... There is a huge difference in the way box speakers and open baffle project sound. A box speaker projects sound into the room creating a more impactful movie, whereas open baffle kind of move the air around the room, moving it backwards and forwards with the driver.
@@Finite-Tuning Although thinking about it open baffle would be very interesting to try in a home theatre arrangement. One of the great advantages of open baffle is the image they create in the room. With boxed speakers it is often very easy to tell the source of the sound. Open baffle tends to create a wall of sound so it sounds like it is often coming from the left - centre - right. Being that surround sound speakers are designed to create a sense of sounds coming from around the back of you, open baffle may be an excellent choice for surround sound speakers. Only thing you would need is enough room so the speakers could be off the wall to work properly otherwise you may as well stay with boxes.
To be fair, you should have also provided measurements on this Spatial Audio X4 and compare how it measures against all those other speakers you have upgraded. If it does not measure flat and yet it blown you away, than it only means speaker that sounds good does not always need to measure flat. However if this speaker measures good, it will reinforce the idea that good sounding speaker does need good measurements.
We didn't measure them, Clayton brought them over and we set them up in the room and just listened for a couple hours. The intention was to have fun rather than critique. That said, there was nothing that stood out compared to the NX-Tremes, the X4 were very balanced, with excellent soundstage, imagining and detail. They also used excellent quality drivers and crossover components. It would be interested to see the measurements, but that wasn't the point of Clayton's trip.
If you've spent decent time with a reference that you know the measurements for, you can more or less go to familiar tracks and get a close idea of what it's doing. Not defending one way or the other. He did state the point was not to put these through a grueling measurement microscope. They just plugged in and enjoyed. Nothing wrong with that!
@@Carl-bd1rf I think there is a big difference here, most of the speakers sent to Danny are owners who want their speakers to be upgraded, so he will have to take measurements for all those speakers in order to recommend the upgrade. In this case Spatial Audio brought in the X4 to have a sharing session with Danny, so it would be rather rude to request for measurements. It would be great if Spatial can provide the measurements for Danny to show them. In fact I am hoping this X4 measures flat and this will reinforce the idea that a good sounding speaker should have relatively good measurements. When Ron reviewed the Spatial M3, the measurements he took were pretty flat.
@@Carl-bd1rf You don't have to take his/our word for it. Even if someone else had sent them in and we did measure it, we'd still be praising it's performance, in either case we wouldn't recommend touching them, they already use really good quality parts, and sounded fantastic.
You've taken some hard shots from others out there in the reviewing community, and I had to see what all the fuss was about. Well, I've concluded that your channel offers tons of useful content: I mashed that Subscribe Button, and will include you among my other trusted resources. Have a nice day!
Danny your verbalization of excessive monopole bass decay was spot on! @5:51 𝙈𝙊𝙎𝙏 understand 𝙎𝙊𝙈𝙀 of the non-linearities associated with drivers. Klippel's work has gone a long way toward this, ... it should be memorized and/or prominently displayed in every shop! Driver non-linearities are one thing, but Acoustic Distortions of the Room are another. So many (enthusiasts and pros) don't fully understand and/or account for acoustic transfer function of loudspeakers in a room. Dipoles simply mitigate many negative effects from the jump. Of course the caveats of ample space etc. OB ftw!
Love me some OB's. My first exposure to them was some designed by John Busch using Altecs. I just wish I had the space for them. Can a DEQX work with these similar to what Emerald Physics has done? That might help with room size?
I built the mtm encores,, and frankly I love them. I did all the upgrades and loaded them with no rez. I didn’t go open baffle because I don’t have room to pull them 6 ft, or whatever, from the wall. I would love to hear the difference.
The horn goes back about as far as the cores of the woofers. One reason they sound good (in phase). The crossover freq is about 700 hz. Another reason they sound good. Semi open drivers. Another reason they sound good. Big woofers for that BIG sound. Another reason they sound good.
Enjoyed this! It makes me happy that I am on the good track with my Martin Logan Classic 9's ... Complete turn around from owning Klipschorns for over 14 years. The single crossover point at 280Hz. is a nice touch too. (O:
I like so much if your able to compare these to some of the older speakers. I have the infinity gamma's still, the infinity beta's I sold 2 years ago these are best sound speakers I had, never had or listen to anything close to them they play rock,jazz,rap, classical music very well not a lot of speakers do this. The black caver amazing loud speakers, sold them. polk sda big speakers sold, Newform Research Ribbon Tower Speakers sold them, infinity RS-2B's sold them, 14 other speaker sets sold them. Magnepan 20.7 I still have these.
You can get there with some of the new stuff from YG Acoustics in their sealed boxes that take out all the cabinet resonances but they are 25-250k. I am saving for a pair of Hailey 2.2 that are 50 grand.
I stopped by Spatial audio (15 min down the road) and demo'd their M4 Sapphire which were simply awesome. I can only imagine what the X4 can do! Once their supply chain issues are sorted I'll be looking to get a pair of M3 or M4s as that is what my budget allows. They were doing a new fascia as well with some natural woods which I prefer over the metal finish. I owned Maggie LRS + Hegel previously and the spatials did almost everything the LRS did but better. It has better dynamics and bass texture than maggies but perhaps the LRS just had a slightly larger scale/stage but almost unnaturaal stage.
I kept hearing something during the video and finally muted my sound and it was coming from the video. Since it has been hot in TX, I imagine it’s the A/C running.
I have a pair of Emerald Physics 3.4s (coaxial 12",driver + 1" polyester tweeter). I THINK this was CSs previous company. I have 2 Argent RoomLenses sandwiched on each side
Hi I found your channel and cant stop watching,its awesome...I found you looking up SVS reviews...I was wondering if open baffle speakers are also appropriate for Home theaters? If so why doesnt anyone make an open baffle Dolby Atmos/DTS-X system? It just seems like it would be extremely advantageous for immersion with movies...am I wrong?
Running PAP speakers for five years. Always felt they lacked detailed, not resolving enough for me. Off axis they fall apart. Got a pair of Danny's NXOxitics; they are definitely next level. Working on sending my PAP W/ Leonidas Xover to have Danny measure. Open baffle is what's up. Looking forward to comparing both afterwards
@@Realloulow which model of tweeter do you have? I’ve got the Trio 10 Mundorf AMT. My crossover is not the modular one, but it does have a two position jumper to address tweeter response.
I should try cutting the boxes off of those "Home Deco" speakers I reviewed in an abandoned house, as an entry level open baffle speaker. They were only 50 SpaceBucks for the pair, so why not try it? Hmm....
Thanks for the video. I'm waiting for the X-statik kit and keep getting in trouble for hand and nose prints on the window every time a delivery truck drives past the house. Any update on the kit? I'm running out of window cleaner.
The coils we have been waiting for have shipped. Tweeters that we have been waiting for are being made and air freighted in. We got a small batch of 54 units this week, and 54 more have just been sent. We are now getting out X Series orders in the order that they came in. So hang on, we are getting them out.
I have heard them. It was Linkwitz's answer for the big baffle sound (lots of surface reflections) of the Orion. They have no baffle at all (practically), so they require a high level of response correction to make them work. So you are stuck with the bottleneck of the electronic or digital crossovers and multiple amps. I was not a big fan, and they really didn't sound that good.
I think so can match or get close to the same open and transparent sound with a box speaker, but you're going to have to spend 5 to 6 figures. Only speaker I know that comes extremely close in a lot of ways, and exceeds it in others, and that doesn't break the bank, are the Alta Alec speakers. I've heard the X5's, and the Alta Alec speakers are damn near as transparent, and not far behind in openness, but the bass of the Alta's has more slam and punch.
You are so right. Once you go OB it is very hard to go back to boxes. I am currently designing some box speakers for home theatre, but I don't think I will ever go back to boxes for my music.
Clayton and Danny notice when a box speaker smears and colors the vocals. As a tuba player I notice the bass first and prefer quality over quantity. Boomy, resonant bass quickly takes a speaker off my list.
What would you say to the ML CLS 1? Also thick oak open frame and large esl panel. I had a pair for three years until the 30 year old pair just got too bad in terms of high voltage but man, what brilliant midrange presence and sheer scale.
I am one of those who waited anxiously for a positive review on this channel. Then a longtime friend stops by and bingo Blown Away. And the search goes on…
Hi Danny. I have a room that is 16 foot long by 11 foot wide 8 foot ceilings and wonder if these speakers or something a little smaller would suit such a room size. The front of the speakers can't be anymore than 25 inches from the wall, so not sure if an open baffle would be ideal. what's your thoughts?
Great to know the spatials blend well with the OB sub... is one enough given it can probably be crossed very low or you would still recommend two to match with the sensitivity of the spatials?
They're a totally different class of products. The LGK kits are meant for desktops or small rooms, the X4 are a proper speaker meant for large rooms with plenty of space.
@@AbsoluteFidelity on their own bedroom/office size. With subs you can get away with a bit of a larger room like a 14x20x9 livingroom, or larger. Especially if you can roll off the bottom end, starting below 80-100Hz. Otherwise they will bottom out, especially at higher volumes.
Open baffle.....I just built my own prototype open baffle with scrap plywood using the wedge wing design style. Long wing, short wing, cutout for the tweeter (removed wing) 1 hour speaker build. Im going to do a finished pair. I support them with a powered sub, no H-frame yet. The sprectral analysis is pretty flat and very gradually moves down a few db on the high end. I expected humps. Nope. Seriously scrap wood. Dirty and all.
Hi guys what do you recommend for cable to put inside speakers. Stranded or solid core? Also best guage? Hope it's ok to ask. I am thinking silver as in genesis by qed or dnm solid core
Why I really never went away from magnepans Box speakers do have better dynamic range on the low end . But it doesn't have anything,on vocals and instrumental seperation... Of a open baffle .. It's hard to accept box speakers (and I have ( because of room size issues
That’s why I like Magnepan, Like they said in the video, open baffle produces velocity not pressure -basically you don’t excite all the nasty room distortions!
I have a pair of X5s. To me they sounded great at low volumes and medium volumes. At higher volumes they started to lack bass(above 90db) If I had to do it over again I’d buy X4s and either Danny’s sub or a rythmique to supplement the bass.
HELP please... I have yet to audition open baffle speakers and this is keeping me from pulling the trigger (as they are quite sizeable investments). I live in CT and so nowhere near either of you. I'll bet you this is the #1 reason keeping many people from pulling the trigger / making the switch. Any ideas on making an audition happen? NX-Treme, NX-Otica, X3, or X5 (or I suppose X4 which seems to be the same). Thank you!
If you’re considering spending that kind of money then you need to just break down and buy a plane ticket. Only way to be sure that you like what you’re listening to. That would only cost a fraction of the price of the speakers and save you from a bad investment if you don’t like. Plus you’ll be able to hear the whole lineup of speakers as opposed to one or two pair.
you could order a pair of Lii Audio F-15s and build a baffle, that would give you a taste of both open baffle and diy, imo its the cheapest and easiest way to move in that direction.
Are they aware that what they are talking about is off camera? It's possible I have, all these years, misunderstood what video is. I always thought it was to be able to see things. And maybe start the video with an explanation of what they are talking about?
Hey Everybody!!!What does that cross-over look like?Are they good parts!!I know it is proprietary and thought you would get at least a chuckle.Oh!BTW,is that price per PAIR? ha ha Doc BC
The crossover parts are excellent quality components with top level V-Caps on the tweeter and quality large gauge iron cores for the woofers. Air cores would be nice but at the values being used, the cost and size difference isn't realistic, even for DIY. The price is 7,500 per pair.
Couple of folks are asking about measurements and thats fair/reasonable. The pair that Danny heard are now under review here at NRD and i'll follow up with everything I can - first impressions, sound clips with commentary, comparison videos against the Sapphires, measurements and of course - a full--blown review. Im eager and anxious! X4s... Let's dance!
Do a clip with Danny going over the measurements. It would be a cool idea and the people would love it. Like you feature him with you on your channel.
Well first you gotta take the missus and the kids back home, right? ("Guests".....mmmm....)
@@yuckysamson That was not Ron's family making racket in the background. A good friend was there for a visit and that was his family (with kids) walking in on us.
@@dannyrichie9743 I know I know, kidding is a lost art.
Yah Ron, still waiting for the review on the red Sapphire's you promised a year ago.
Good to see that level of mutual respect/admiration from business competitors. Hats off to you both!
I received my X-4s about a month ago. I was inspired to get them as a result of Ron at New Record Day sharing sound clip videos that included several traditional box speakers and speakers like the Spatial Audio Labs Sapphire M-3s and X-5s. I own a few other more expensive traditional box speaker systems, but none of then are as capable as the X-4s when it comes to sound staging, imaging, and making instruments sound like they are truly in the room. Clayton was also willing to build a matching pair of open baffle subs for me. I had them install two GR Research 12” - 16 ohm open baffle servo sub drivers in each of these two baffles. Fortunately, Clayton also had a slightly used pair of XLR Rythmik servo plate amps (these are hard to find right now). These open baffle subs take the low end down a little farther than the X-4s can do on their own, but the X-4s really don’t require them. I am still working to get the subs and the X-4s to integrate as well as I would like. I plan to seek advice from Danny on this issue. In summary, I have been thrilled with these speakers so far, and I look forward to getting the subs tuned or modified to integrate even better.
This is why I have the Spatial X3 in my upstairs system and the GR Research Super 7 in my downstairs system. 2 of the best speakers on the planet. Coming from me that's saying something as I've heard a lot of speakers (a lot!) and IMO the speaker is THE MOST important part of the system so I am very fussy and demanding. Spatial and GR Research make incredibly good speakers.
this is true.
M3 Sapphire owner here. In addition to the comments made by Danny and Clayton, it is important to debunk the myth that open baffles have lean bass. It just isn’t true. I’ve never had more satisfying bass, after years of struggling with boomy ported box speakers in my room. I can’t see myself going back.
Danny and Clayton, the two coolest dudes in the business!! Much respect to both of you!!
Two very knowledgeable audio experts totally sold on the open baffle benefits. Different perspectives but they both essentially arrive at the same conclusion. As fo many non-expert listeners.
Thank the heavens there's somebody out there you can trust.
Clayton Shaw looks exactly what you would think someone named Clayton Shaw would ; ) Great video!
You guys should do a collaboration. I'll be down for a pair. Open baffle, so us guitarists have been right since the start haha 🎸🤟
I'm glad to see that the Spatial speakers get Danny's stamp of approval. After seeing the junk crossovers in so many speakers it's very hard to know what companies you can trust.
So glad to see these two together. Make Open Baffle Popular Again (MOBPA)
Mutual respect for top quality 👏
Spatial Audio has the lower price point M (6/4/3) Sapphire series open baffle speakers and they also sound pretty good!! :)
I've been rockin' a pair of the M4 Sapphires for about a month now and I'm quite pleased with their sound signature.
I'm confident that the Spatial's sound great. Unfortunately, they present two barriers for many of us, perhaps most. Cost and the need for the large listening space that open baffle speakers require. Cost can be ameliorated somewhat but a large space where the open baffle can be placed far enough from the room's walls may simply not be an option.
Yes, the back wave is the biggest frustration when dealing with open baffle and panel speakers. You need at least 3-4 feet behind them.
being placed far from the wall is the only reason why I have yet to purchase the X5... I need to be around 1 foot away from the wall
@@r1verrat1977
Its the main obstacle to widespread adoption of open baffle speakers.
I own a pair of Magneplanar 3.7s. I emailed an inquiry to GR Research about the feasibility of improving them past 3.7i levels. Danny responded quickly regarding his upgrade kit and what it could do for my 3.7s. Now all I have to do is to save up for the kit.
My 2 favorite speaker designers.
I have a semi open design but different to open baffle. It's a coaxial or FR driver mounted about 1--2 cm above the speaker hole in the box (with an air gap around the driver). The speaker hole has a 50 mm deep bass vent tube running into the box from the speaker hole. And make these speakers with oversize boxes. Usual wadding inside box. Tweak the driver gap with soft sprinkler hose as spacers (squash hose with screwdriver for best gap). For small drivers it's 1 cm (average). Have top and bottom screws different gap for less resonance. For most boxes have the larger gap on the bottom to slope drivers up a bit (instead of down). I make sloped face plates so I can have the larger gap at the top (for optimum acoustics). They sound real cos of a 3D effect. Spacial like a tube amp. Only really works with FR or coaxial drivers. Mine have a woofer on the bottom firing directly into the floor, downwards. With 1" high stand stubbs to let the bass out. The residual med (hardly any) goes through the top driver gap all around the FR or coaxial driver. Out of phase and still "point source" sounds amazing. Acoustic delay that gives the med that addictive 3D spacial tube sound (even more than just a single FR driver without the woofer). And the bass is great too, warm, deep and puck on the kick. I have just the FR mounted like that in oversize boxes and the bass sounded good but just a little bit bass shy. Frustrating, so I added a woofer of the same 5" diam (on the bottom, facing the floor). The speakers are simply at another level! You can hear the kick hammer hit the kick drum skin and the kick sound is full and deep. They are short floor standing boxes. I also made another similar pair of 5" FR with a 6.5" woofer in larger flower pot boxes, and some 8" coaxials in large wood boxes and a 10" woofer (same basic design). I also modify my drivers to fight resonance and to extend highs on my FR drivers. That's too hard to describe in a comment. How about an encyclopaedia?
Danny can you please do a tour of your listening room? I'd love to see the acoustical treatments you've done, maybe even before and after measurements of the room.
Okay.
@@dannyrichie9743 awesome, I'm looking forward to it.
As I recall from my visit your room also features some interesting power supply implementations.
Hey Danny, you are a great believer of minimizing the mid and high units drivers center, in order to get better of axis responds.
Spatial audio clearly doesn't adhere to this philosophy, how do you explain they still achieve great imaging?
Also, I think you like narrow baffles in order to minimize baffle step loss. Again, how do you think spatial audio gets great results with a broader baffle?
And lastly, you seem to prefer to get great bass with multiple smaller driver units, also in great contrast with Spatial audio approach. Any comment on that difference?
Good questions.
The center to center spacing of the drivers dictates the crossover point. With the drivers spaced as far apart on this model it will dictate a fairly low crossover point, and in this case that is exactly what they have. The crossover point is at a low 750Hz.
There are clear advantages to small baffles. This design uses a tweeter in a wave guide and that controls the dispersion to some degree and minimizes so of the baffle size issues. It worked and sounded great.
There are always advantages in the use on multiple drivers. Minimizing exertion allows for faster settling times. In this case two woofers are being used down low and they have quite a bit of surface area. So neither move too far at average listening levels.
I'm from Norman Ok and was getting in to hifi in the 70's while CS was. I owned two different models of NL's and even went out to their plant. A friend of mine just saw Leonard Bernstein, one of the owners of NL, at a funeral recently.
I have gone back to coffins, my triode masters were great but the tone of my new Triangles won the day. Now that I know the OB sound would luv to hear the X4
Two old speaker dudes hangin out. Very cool.
I was really impressed with spatial at Axpona this year, made some great improvments over the years since I first heard them. Great Job!
Man, I'd love to see some measurements on those beautiful speakers!
Great stuff. I had a pair of Norman Labs speakers back in the 70s. I loved the sound of them. Had to reassign to an overseas location and the USAF wouldn't ship them. He's good pedigree! Greg
I think my first ever speaker purchase decision came down to Original Advents or Norman Labs , both at The Hungry Ear in Dallas.
Looks like you two were having fun!
Thrilled to be back in the audio dojo with my Sensei, Danny 'The Sprint' Ritchie!
My full recently completed nx otica with a pair of triple driver servo subs BLEW ME AWAY. I'll never have a box speaker again
Check out the nx otica smoke a 600k system th-cam.com/video/SawkcBZKECo/w-d-xo.html
The audio ranch . Yes to open baffle when done right.👍
The blurb in your discussion concerning room loading with Dipole Subwoofers was an interesting eye opener for me. I very much enjoyed this collaboration and would have loved to have heard the X-4’s w the Servo Subs!
You're absolutely right.
Dipole excites and interacts the room volume entirely differently. Siegfried Linkwitz' superb web database is a great source on this aspect, ... he detailed every element of this throughout his life's work.
Dipolar excitation manifests itself as cleaner LF room decay times. Just as you want clean decay time of HF drivers, clean decay of the room is vital... it strips away an overlay of unnecessary heavy blur.
Danny's brief impression is spot on;
@5:51
I hope his hip/knee is recovering well. Missed him at Axpona.
Picked up an older pair of M3 Holograms today. This was my first open baffle experience. The low end is so impressive. I have a well treated listening room but man the bass is so much different. My room is so much more open sounding and it doesn’t get loaded like it did with a ported sub.
I have them 4 feet into my room. At 20” wide and 42” tall, it is shocking that they can disappear in the music.
Granted I bought these used but they are the best $500 speakers I have ever heard 🤓
That's a great price considering they were over 2K when new , 2.6 K if the Turbo S version .
Its no coincidence great minds think a like. Those look gorgeous. When the upcoming 8” NX studios come out, I need to get in some open baffle action.
Where did you hear about this? That could be intriguing… (from a current NX studio owner)…
@@Cujobob From Danny himself: th-cam.com/video/b-8GUOXpblc/w-d-xo.html
I could always buy a nice used 6” pair 😉.
You had me 'quite curious' the last time you were talking about open baffles, but I'm rapidly approaching the 'need to know for myself' state of mind. Cheers 🍻
This was me, bought and built the nx otica with triple driver servo subs. Blows your mind. Check out my videos on my channel of my system vs a 600k system. You be the judge.
It's like if you have driven a 20 year old Hyundai your whole life, and someone offers you a ride in a brand new 7 series Beemer. It is just so much more than you are used to it is addictive. I went active open baffle about 12 years ago and I have no intentions of going back to boxes for music.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering:
That sounds like fun! I was thinking of building one and making it active just to test out. I'll never spend thousands on any speaker in my lifetime, not when I can build the same thing myself for only hundreds. So building one is probably the only way I'll get to demo one, and active is easy so that was my thinkin on that. Do you only use two of them in your system? I'm all about home theater, I wonder how would 9 open baffle speakers work in a room? Cheers 🍻
@@Finite-Tuning the great thing about OB is exactly that it is an open baffle there really isn't any building to do. I actually have two different main speakers because I couldn't hear any difference between the two prototype designs I made. The first one I built used a flat piece of 19mm MDF, at the top I have a RAAL 140-15AM dipole tweeter with the MDF cut down to the same size as the face plate (check out Madisound to see the tweeter). The second speaker I have two vertical pieces of 5/8" x 1-1/2" light pine, again the RAAL dipole is mounted to the face plate holes, so there is no difference in baffle size between them, only the tweeter face plate. On the first speaker I have the mids mounted in the MDF with only a small amount of baffle showing and the sides rounded over with a router. The second speaker the mids are suspended by light chain bought from a hardware store. The 18" woofers are behind the main speakers.
There are two distinct types of open baffle speakers. What I have which is pretty much called baffleless open baffle, and open baffle where you have a distinct baffle. The reason boxes have a forward sound to them is largely attributed to the front face of the box, if you have a big baffle you can wind up having the same problems as a boxed speaker. The draw back of the baffleless setup is that you wind up with a lot more sound cancellation between the front and the rear of the driver.
What Danny has done with his speakers is a cross between baffleless and baffled. By using a narrow front baffle he has most of the advantage of the baffleless speaker, but the wing sides gives them advantage of the wider baffle by keeping front and rear waves from colliding and cancelling each other out. The really great thing about open baffle it is really hard to muck things up totally. Whereas a box, you get dimensions or volumes wrong and you can turn a half decent driver into something really crap sounding.
While you can use virtually any driver in an open baffle there are some that are more open baffle friendly. Active makes finding the right crossover points so much easier.
As for home theatre... There is a huge difference in the way box speakers and open baffle project sound. A box speaker projects sound into the room creating a more impactful movie, whereas open baffle kind of move the air around the room, moving it backwards and forwards with the driver.
@@Finite-Tuning Although thinking about it open baffle would be very interesting to try in a home theatre arrangement. One of the great advantages of open baffle is the image they create in the room. With boxed speakers it is often very easy to tell the source of the sound. Open baffle tends to create a wall of sound so it sounds like it is often coming from the left - centre - right. Being that surround sound speakers are designed to create a sense of sounds coming from around the back of you, open baffle may be an excellent choice for surround sound speakers. Only thing you would need is enough room so the speakers could be off the wall to work properly otherwise you may as well stay with boxes.
More videos with them together!
To be fair, you should have also provided measurements on this Spatial Audio X4 and compare how it measures against all those other speakers you have upgraded. If it does not measure flat and yet it blown you away, than it only means speaker that sounds good does not always need to measure flat. However if this speaker measures good, it will reinforce the idea that good sounding speaker does need good measurements.
We didn't measure them, Clayton brought them over and we set them up in the room and just listened for a couple hours. The intention was to have fun rather than critique. That said, there was nothing that stood out compared to the NX-Tremes, the X4 were very balanced, with excellent soundstage, imagining and detail. They also used excellent quality drivers and crossover components. It would be interested to see the measurements, but that wasn't the point of Clayton's trip.
If you've spent decent time with a reference that you know the measurements for, you can more or less go to familiar tracks and get a close idea of what it's doing.
Not defending one way or the other. He did state the point was not to put these through a grueling measurement microscope. They just plugged in and enjoyed. Nothing wrong with that!
@@Carl-bd1rf I think there is a big difference here, most of the speakers sent to Danny are owners who want their speakers to be upgraded, so he will have to take measurements for all those speakers in order to recommend the upgrade.
In this case Spatial Audio brought in the X4 to have a sharing session with Danny, so it would be rather rude to request for measurements. It would be great if Spatial can provide the measurements for Danny to show them. In fact I am hoping this X4 measures flat and this will reinforce the idea that a good sounding speaker should have relatively good measurements. When Ron reviewed the Spatial M3, the measurements he took were pretty flat.
@@Carl-bd1rf You don't have to take his/our word for it. Even if someone else had sent them in and we did measure it, we'd still be praising it's performance, in either case we wouldn't recommend touching them, they already use really good quality parts, and sounded fantastic.
Side note - here is the nx otica comparing to a 600k rig if you are interested
th-cam.com/video/SawkcBZKECo/w-d-xo.html
Wow 14 acres Danny that’s huge you should make PA speskers and have a private concert in open air. That will be ultimate
I would certainly consider OB but placement is a bit of a problem, distance to the front wall.
You've taken some hard shots from others out there in the reviewing community, and I had to see what all the fuss was about. Well, I've concluded that your channel offers tons of useful content: I mashed that Subscribe Button, and will include you among my other trusted resources. Have a nice day!
Danny your verbalization of excessive monopole bass decay was spot on!
@5:51
𝙈𝙊𝙎𝙏 understand 𝙎𝙊𝙈𝙀 of the non-linearities associated with drivers.
Klippel's work has gone a long way toward this, ... it should be memorized and/or prominently displayed in every shop!
Driver non-linearities are one thing, but Acoustic Distortions of the Room are another.
So many (enthusiasts and pros) don't fully understand and/or account for acoustic transfer function of loudspeakers in a room.
Dipoles simply mitigate many negative effects from the jump. Of course the caveats of ample space etc.
OB ftw!
Love me some OB's. My first exposure to them was some designed by John Busch using Altecs. I just wish I had the space for them. Can a DEQX work with these similar to what Emerald Physics has done? That might help with room size?
I wish you guys would talk about amplification. What amps do you feel brings out the best in your open baffle designs?
I built the mtm encores,, and frankly I love them. I did all the upgrades and loaded them with no rez. I didn’t go open baffle because I don’t have room to pull them 6 ft, or whatever, from the wall. I would love to hear the difference.
Compare them to the new Fischer and Fischer NS70 Speakers made out of.. Slate !
The horn goes back about as far as the cores of the woofers. One reason they sound good (in phase).
The crossover freq is about 700 hz. Another reason they sound good.
Semi open drivers. Another reason they sound good.
Big woofers for that BIG sound. Another reason they sound good.
Enjoyed this! It makes me happy that I am on the good track with my Martin Logan Classic 9's ... Complete turn around from owning Klipschorns for over 14 years. The single crossover point at 280Hz. is a nice touch too. (O:
I like so much if your able to compare these to some of the older speakers. I have the infinity gamma's still, the infinity beta's I sold 2 years ago these are best sound speakers I had, never had or listen to anything close to them they play rock,jazz,rap, classical music very well not a lot of speakers do this. The black caver amazing loud speakers, sold them. polk sda big speakers sold, Newform Research Ribbon Tower Speakers sold them, infinity RS-2B's sold them, 14 other speaker sets sold them. Magnepan 20.7 I still have these.
You can get there with some of the new stuff from YG Acoustics in their sealed boxes that take out all the cabinet resonances but they are 25-250k. I am saving for a pair of Hailey 2.2 that are 50 grand.
I stopped by Spatial audio (15 min down the road) and demo'd their M4 Sapphire which were simply awesome. I can only imagine what the X4 can do! Once their supply chain issues are sorted I'll be looking to get a pair of M3 or M4s as that is what my budget allows. They were doing a new fascia as well with some natural woods which I prefer over the metal finish. I owned Maggie LRS + Hegel previously and the spatials did almost everything the LRS did but better. It has better dynamics and bass texture than maggies but perhaps the LRS just had a slightly larger scale/stage but almost unnaturaal stage.
Didn't know Michael Biehn built speakers in his spare time, great stuff.
I kept hearing something during the video and finally muted my sound and it was coming from the video. Since it has been hot in TX, I imagine it’s the A/C running.
“A lot of crossover”, no pun intended! 😂
Good show great to see two of best designers talking shop. maybe a joint project at some time .
I have a pair of Emerald Physics 3.4s (coaxial 12",driver + 1" polyester tweeter). I THINK this was CSs previous company. I have 2 Argent RoomLenses sandwiched on each side
Once you've heard a decent open baffle , you won't care for anything else . Spatial M3 Turbo S ring my bell just fine .
Hi I found your channel and cant stop watching,its awesome...I found you looking up SVS reviews...I was wondering if open baffle speakers are also appropriate for Home theaters? If so why doesnt anyone make an open baffle Dolby Atmos/DTS-X system? It just seems like it would be extremely advantageous for immersion with movies...am I wrong?
Open baffle is so satisfying to listen to. Was shopping for Spatial, wound up with Pure Audio. My box speakers are living in the closet.
Running PAP speakers for five years. Always felt they lacked detailed, not resolving enough for me. Off axis they fall apart.
Got a pair of Danny's NXOxitics; they are definitely next level. Working on sending my PAP W/ Leonidas Xover to have Danny measure. Open baffle is what's up. Looking forward to comparing both afterwards
@@Realloulow which model of tweeter do you have? I’ve got the Trio 10 Mundorf AMT. My crossover is not the modular one, but it does have a two position jumper to address tweeter response.
Dig the vid, Danny. My Pedest'ale Tower speakers are sounding good, thank you.
I should try cutting the boxes off of those "Home Deco" speakers I reviewed in an abandoned house, as an entry level open baffle speaker. They were only 50 SpaceBucks for the pair, so why not try it? Hmm....
Thanks for the video. I'm waiting for the X-statik kit and keep getting in trouble for hand and nose prints on the window every time a delivery truck drives past the house. Any update on the kit? I'm running out of window cleaner.
The coils we have been waiting for have shipped. Tweeters that we have been waiting for are being made and air freighted in. We got a small batch of 54 units this week, and 54 more have just been sent. We are now getting out X Series orders in the order that they came in. So hang on, we are getting them out.
Just heard another review about these........ wow!! How do we get a hold of these??
Danny, Great video and I really enjoyed the shop talk.
Danny, I'd love to hear your impressions on the Linkwitz LX Mini. Is that available anywhere out in TH-cam-land? I know you worked on some Orions.
I have heard them. It was Linkwitz's answer for the big baffle sound (lots of surface reflections) of the Orion. They have no baffle at all (practically), so they require a high level of response correction to make them work. So you are stuck with the bottleneck of the electronic or digital crossovers and multiple amps. I was not a big fan, and they really didn't sound that good.
I think so can match or get close to the same open and transparent sound with a box speaker, but you're going to have to spend 5 to 6 figures. Only speaker I know that comes extremely close in a lot of ways, and exceeds it in others, and that doesn't break the bank, are the Alta Alec speakers. I've heard the X5's, and the Alta Alec speakers are damn near as transparent, and not far behind in openness, but the bass of the Alta's has more slam and punch.
In box speakers you cannot prevent the return inside on the back of the cone of the backwave.....
now i want more content around the new x series lineup speakers:)
and an explanation why the horn and top woofer is so far apart.
You are so right. Once you go OB it is very hard to go back to boxes. I am currently designing some box speakers for home theatre, but I don't think I will ever go back to boxes for my music.
Do you have to play them loudly or can I listen late at night without waking my wife and the neighbors?
Clayton and Danny notice when a box speaker smears and colors the vocals. As a tuba player I notice the bass first and prefer quality over quantity. Boomy, resonant bass quickly takes a speaker off my list.
Now I am trying to decide between these or filling up my gas tank 🤔
Need some more open baffle driver's 8 ohms any ideas?
Wattage needs? I currently have a Pass Labs 20 watt class A integrated, would it be enough?
The stars at night are big and bright..........🤣
hey Danny would you ever make a center channel to go with some of your speaker line?
We already offer several center channel models.
What would you say to the ML CLS 1? Also thick oak open frame and large esl panel. I had a pair for three years until the 30 year old pair just got too bad in terms of high voltage but man, what brilliant midrange presence and sheer scale.
I am one of those who waited anxiously for a positive review on this channel. Then a longtime friend stops by and bingo Blown Away. And the search goes on…
I am and can be a brutally honest guy. So friend or no friend if it doesn't sound good, I'll say so. It this case they sounded great.
Can't wait till I can afford either one. Ha
Great Video🙂👍🙏
If you have a 12"x18" room, what would you recommend as minimum distance from side and back walls? (speakers would be in the 12" wall). Thanks!
You need to be able to bring them at least 3 feet out into the room.
Hi Danny. I have a room that is 16 foot long by 11 foot wide 8 foot ceilings and wonder if these speakers or something a little smaller would suit such a room size. The front of the speakers can't be anymore than 25 inches from the wall, so not sure if an open baffle would be ideal. what's your thoughts?
With any open baffle speaker, you really need to be able to move them at least three feet out into the room.
Great to know the spatials blend well with the OB sub... is one enough given it can probably be crossed very low or you would still recommend two to match with the sensitivity of the spatials?
The speakers can cross fairly low, so using one double or triple in mono is not a problem. But more is always better. :-)
Are they as good as your LGKs?
They're a totally different class of products. The LGK kits are meant for desktops or small rooms, the X4 are a proper speaker meant for large rooms with plenty of space.
@@hoth2112 how small of a room do you have to be in and at what spl level @ 1 meter do you need to be at to get the LGK playing at its best?
@@AbsoluteFidelity on their own bedroom/office size. With subs you can get away with a bit of a larger room like a 14x20x9 livingroom, or larger. Especially if you can roll off the bottom end, starting below 80-100Hz. Otherwise they will bottom out, especially at higher volumes.
@@hoth2112 Can I high pass it at 120hz and get it to play cleanly at 85db @ 2 meters?
@@AbsoluteFidelity Easily. The higher you high pass it, the louder it will be able to play.
Open baffle.....I just built my own prototype open baffle with scrap plywood using the wedge wing design style. Long wing, short wing, cutout for the tweeter (removed wing) 1 hour speaker build. Im going to do a finished pair. I support them with a powered sub, no H-frame yet. The sprectral analysis is pretty flat and very gradually moves down a few db on the high end. I expected humps. Nope. Seriously scrap wood. Dirty and all.
What plans, and drivers did you use?
I would loooove to build me some M3 Sapphires...
Hi guys what do you recommend for cable to put inside speakers. Stranded or solid core? Also best guage? Hope it's ok to ask. I am thinking silver as in genesis by qed or dnm solid core
my only issue with the Spatial is I CANT HEAR them Anywhere!
Hey Danny and Clayton
I have a pair of Carver Amazing Silver speakers, have you heard them? Can you tell me the upgrades in your models ?
Thanks
I've heard them.
So are these as good as your own NX at about the same price?
Why I really never went away from magnepans
Box speakers do have better dynamic range on the low end . But it doesn't have anything,on vocals and instrumental seperation... Of a open baffle ..
It's hard to accept box speakers (and I have ( because of room size issues
That’s why I like Magnepan,
Like they said in the video, open baffle produces velocity not pressure -basically you don’t excite all the nasty room distortions!
Do these sound good at low volumes (around 68 db or so)?
Do open baffles in general perform better at low volumes than other types of designs?
Lol no
I have a pair of X5s.
To me they sounded great at low volumes and medium volumes.
At higher volumes they started to lack bass(above 90db)
If I had to do it over again I’d buy X4s and either Danny’s sub or a rythmique to supplement the bass.
I listen to my X5s every night at under 70db at the listening position and I am transfixed. Hard to shut down to go to bed. I love them!
Ok..so it's beyma TPL 150H. Great choice
Not available in Denmark sadly
HELP please... I have yet to audition open baffle speakers and this is keeping me from pulling the trigger (as they are quite sizeable investments). I live in CT and so nowhere near either of you. I'll bet you this is the #1 reason keeping many people from pulling the trigger / making the switch. Any ideas on making an audition happen? NX-Treme, NX-Otica, X3, or X5 (or I suppose X4 which seems to be the same). Thank you!
If you’re considering spending that kind of money then you need to just break down and buy a plane ticket. Only way to be sure that you like what you’re listening to. That would only cost a fraction of the price of the speakers and save you from a bad investment if you don’t like. Plus you’ll be able to hear the whole lineup of speakers as opposed to one or two pair.
If you want to jump on the open baffle train you could try building a pair of X-Statiks. They are an amazing value for the money.
you could order a pair of Lii Audio F-15s and build a baffle, that would give you a taste of both open baffle and diy, imo its the cheapest and easiest way to move in that direction.
See my channels video showing the nx otica smoke a 600k system. You won't worry about open baffle after you check it out.
@@TheDocAudioShow Should post a link
Where are the measurements? ;)
wondering about how this produces mid bass
Are they aware that what they are talking about is off camera? It's possible I have, all these years, misunderstood what video is. I always thought it was to be able to see things. And maybe start the video with an explanation of what they are talking about?
Hey Everybody!!!What does that cross-over look like?Are they good parts!!I know it is proprietary and thought you would get at least a chuckle.Oh!BTW,is that price per PAIR? ha ha Doc BC
The crossover parts are excellent quality components with top level V-Caps on the tweeter and quality large gauge iron cores for the woofers. Air cores would be nice but at the values being used, the cost and size difference isn't realistic, even for DIY.
The price is 7,500 per pair.
@@hoth2112 You know I was kidding?But thank you for the information and your time.And have a sonorous day. Doc BC
@@BC-fy1wn There's a lot of context lost in text, tbh. So sarcasm is not always so clear.
I walk into a showroom with open baffle speakers I immediately turn around and walk out.
I want it I want it I want it I want it I want it I want it