I could only imagine the thoughts going through Curly’s head post crash, constantly being in pain, being fully conscious and forced to watch the aftermath of the mistakes and choices he made. Hell! He was fully conscious and most likely had to watch Anya take her own life! I have seen some fan content where he thankfully gets prosthetic limbs and PROPER tools for communication! And I like those, they’re very wholesome. Curly is one of my favorite characters in the game and it hurts seeing how he gets treated by a majority of the fandom.
I don't know the characters so when I first saw people make curly that way, I thought that was how he was, but he isn't from that I've heard from others, I'm lucky people tell me all these
People would rather infantilize him and characters like him than admit his situation is horrifying BECAUSE he is not a child nor a dog or not conscious.
this is an issue that happens irl too. like if someone has a speach impediment others will treat them as if its a brain issue. it CAN be but that doesn't mean all are. and even if it IS a brain issue, that is still a human and deserves respect and not to be patronized
Yes! I remember a nurse being utterly incapable of communicating with me like the almost legal adult I was simply because I was unable to verbally communicate at the time (was having an autistic meltdown in a mental health clinic). First, she asked me complex question that required eloquent answers that I could not provide and she didn't even bother getting me something to write or attempting to as yes or no question but rather went on to completely ignore me an speaking to my mother instead. Like, lady, I'm right here! It's literally your job to work with people like me, figure something out!
It was blueberry x normal him at that point loll and while I do like drawing him in a cutesy way, there comes a point where it just gets weird. HE'S A GROWN MAN. 😂
Okay FIGHT ME /j I love treating all my favorite silly skeleton men as little babies ,:p this includes the ones that commit multiversal war crimes (error is baby)
I didn’t know anything about Mouthwash but finding out Curly is a human was shocking. I didn’t know he was one as I had seen the infantilization and dehumanization of him and thought he was a creature, let’s not treat disabled people like this oh my god
God I also thought that and was extremely disgusted by the infantilization of him by fandom after experiencing Mouthwashing. This is coming from someone who is disabled and it's just... So uncomfortable.
Something I’ve personally noticed with the fandom’s treatment of curly is that most non-joke/cutesy fanart of him that isn’t horror uses his pre-crash design, which isn’t inherently a bad thing you can use that design all you want, but personally I’d like to see more art humanizing disfigured curly. Not saying all mouthwashing fanartists do this, but I just think the physically disabled character shouldn’t have to have their disability erased whenever theyre not being infantilized/dehumanized/used for horror. That’s just what I observed tho, I’m not sure if this is a super common thing in the fandom
What's sad is that his post-crash design is infinitely cooler than his pre-crash one: he looks straight out of Evangelion, and if people are going to ignore that he probably can't move at all for all the dehumanizing memes they might as well also overlook it for humanizing interactions too.
Are you mostly watching videos and/or tiktoks about mouth washing? Because i usually see Curly's post-crash design in fanart and it's usually drawn normally or super artistic when looking at Tumblr and other fanart places. If anything, I think he's the second best depicted person most of the time. On the sites I browse, Daisuke is usually whitewashed and Swansea is made to look skinnier (we don't talk about jambalaya). Anya seems to be the most consistently best depicted in fanart, but I think Curly is the second?
I saw a comic/animation where they show what might happen to curly if he gets found in his cryo pod. Seeing Curly living a relatively normal life with his injuries was somethi g
Reminder those "dog communication buttons" are AAC BUTTONS. they're not for dogs. People get them for their dogs but they're made for PEOPLE. I do understand that there has been weird art of curly like on the floor pressing these things like a dog and that's weird and dehumanizing, but these buttons are not "dog buttons" they're AAC devices disabled people do use
@Izaacs_notDeadOf Course! Contextually, these devices existed for disabled people before using them for dogs. However-in the situation of the meme that this is pulled from-they’re being used particularly for dogs. Which is why in this video I called them such!! I realize now it sounds a lot like erasure on my end. As a resource, AAC buttons are extremely helpful!! But in this case-they’re not being used in the way that they were intended for human-wise. I agree with you completely :3
Yeah I’ve seen one animation that I think did it well, where it’s not played as a cute thing or a joke, but instead as “what would he say if he had access to one?” I will note I am autistic and sometimes have trouble grasping new ideas that have to do with social things like this, so If I’m not getting the entire point, that’s why. I understand how the buttons are being used in the fandom and how it’s dehumanising, but I don’t always recognise WHEN someone is being treated as this way, especially if it’s a fictional character and/or if the content has a humorous tone.
This has been bothering me since I got in the fandom. I saw an animation of curly on all fours while daisuke looks at him and goes “wow, pretty fucked up looking dog” and like that joke is funny when it’s making light of creepy fictional monsters and stuff, but this is a horrifically disabled burn victim
Daisuke does act childish but I don’t like it when people portray him as a stupid toddler, he’s just an energetic and slightly naive ADULT. Not a baby that needs protecting
@@Soggycheeseee He's not even naive, look at how he acts when he gets drunk. The upbeat Daisuke? That's his "brave face". He's lost, lonely, depressed, and he's pretending he's okay and he can fake it until he makes it. (Swansea is no more reliable of a character judge as the others are-- he's deeply inside of his own head, too, and sees what he wants to see, and no further. He sees only Daisuke's cheerful mask and not the guy who still has no idea what to do with his life and no one who actually sits down with him to help him figure it out and orient him.) Daisuke's a lot like I was in high school, when people were demanding that I choose a career choice and the career orientor dude was more useless than Jimmy as a captain; no real idea where to go and no one to really have any interest in sitting down with me and helping direct me to a specific career and then giving me the nudges needed to actually GET in that career after, and as someone who was VERY successful at masking my depression, the overly cheerful social mask and incredibly easy to manipulate desire to be someone and help in any way? That also hits way close to home. Anyway this was my "Daisuke is depressed from day 0 and hiding it with a social mask" TED talk.
I didn't know that most of this stuff was happening. But it is sad to see Curly be treated that way. Everything just happened to go south and he was in the crossfire's of it. The game did change my perspectives on a whole lotta things, especially Curly. He and I have the same mindset of "I can just talk it out and everyone will be back to normal". But that ended up harming everyone else because of his inaction. It was weird when people say that he "deserved it". When he didn't take action because he didn't understand the severity of the situation. Which lead to the events happening in the game.
I think a lot of people misunderstood what curly’s accident and aftermath were supposed to represent, aside of being an allegory and connection in narrative to the same situation of abuse Anya faced with jimmy not respecting her body autonomy it should be labeled properly as a consequence curly faced for his lack of action where he still could do something about jimmy, labeling as a punishment instead of a consequence it’s taking away the tragedy and unfairness of the situation curly faced as a character by the hands of someone he thought was his friend even if he was partially at fault for making jimmy being there and an enabler it didn’t meant he was not a victim as well like Anya was
@@LauraVanessaEscobarSalazar Karmic irony is the term for what happened to Curly: his failure was (for whatever reason that he had) to refuse to take action when he was able to, to the very end, by deflecting and delaying and allowing Jimmy to take control of the situation when confronted; the consequence of his lack of action when Jimmy explained exactly the scenario he wanted to create to "fix everything" was to be FORCED into a state of inaction as an observer with no choice and no control, either over what happens on the ship or over what his body's instinctive reactions are, while Jimmy then got to take control of the situation once again. It's karmic (it goes in a cycle), but it's not any sort of justice or retribution, just the deeply ironic fate that he got locked into having to keep doing the same thing he did that got them there even if he no longer wants to, and the result is also the same. It's essentially the antithesis to How Fish Is Made and the importance of choice: this is the importance of NOT making a choice. (also "fixing" can mean rigging an outcome, and I find that very fascinating as a choice of arc words for a character who rigged everything to try to control the narrative the entire time, as an aside. Jimmy was "fixing" things as in rigging a story that wasn't true, even at the very end.)
"he's just a helpless little thing!!!" my brother in christ that is a (seemingly) mid 30 year old man who has enough experience and skill in multiple areas that he's tasked with flying a huge hunk of metal through space and taking care of a crew for a year or more. I swear to god they judt treat him like a little puppy when he was a full ass grown man like a few months ago. and a special fuck you to the people who say his disability is his punishment anyway tysm for talking abt this issue as a whole. as a disabled person myself I hate it sm
I like curly because he’s so human, he’s such a well writtten morally gray person. Which does make me sad when I see others infantilize him, because it should be easy to put yourself in their position and think about how you’d want others to treat you.
4:43 SO MUCH THIS!! One time, when I was in primary school, this man came to talk to us about something - I forget what it was. But what stuck out to me was that he said, 'Children's brains are not fully formed, so they aren't human. You guys are not human.' And that really rubbed me the wrong way 😭
Don't know anything about captain curly or the referenced fanwork, but something very similar to "dog communication buttons" has existed for physically disabled people far longer than it has for pets. Again, I'm not aware of the specific context, but supposing curly was burned so badly he lacks the capability or desire to speak, the buttons are about as "infantalizing" as a wheelchair or prosthetic limb Even if they are meant to be specifically dog communication buttons, those buttons exist specifically to give their users more autonomy and a method to communicate. We are treating the dogs as if they are humans in this scenario, not the other way around. I agree with your points as a generalization, but this may have been a bad example.
I can get where you’re coming from!! To contextualize: the meme itself comes from a meme regarding a dog and communication buttons. So, that’s where the correlation comes from!! As others have said before: they aren’t a horrible form of communication, but still inadequate and painful for a person like curly to use. If they wanted to do something with communication in mind, there’s already existing evolved versions of speech-communications that wouldn’t be painful or exert overwhelming energy to use. But the use of Curly being akin to a dog in this meme is a little bit weird in general. As a whole there’s been a lot of “dog memes but we put curly in place of the dog” sort of jokes being passed around and while not inherently harmful-still do perpetuate already existing stereotypes and behaviors.
@@MerRants OMG I saw that video show up on my recommended. I had no idea that it was bad until now. I didn’t watch it since Mouthwashing isn’t on my list of interest. I’m glad you spoke up about the issue at hand.
I am tired of people calling Curly “silly!!!” And treating him like a dog…. like GUY just got burnt, exploded, AND lost his limbs….. leave him alone rbuh
I call every character silly and I have drawn him asking “where by hug at” (which I don’t think he would do I thought it would be funny). Dog buttons are kinda icky though. I acknowledge he is an adult man and I have drawn him pre crash, you know acting like the adult he is. And I’ve drawn him post crash also in a serious manner, showing the pain he went through. Anyway rant over
I think the meme with the dog saying "I HATE YOU EW EW" can be fine like the dog comunication buttons is more to find a way to how can express (because he cant say and some other problems too) than the joke him being a dog. (also because the audio is funny).(I also saw one video where he use in a more sad way) But I pretty can see the problem he being treating like a dog, not a human who is a gray character (good to remember that he didnt do anything about Anya situation because he is a friend of Jimmy). Is a topic that I didnt notice and is good to know to handle in a more respecftul way possible.
I wouldn’t have seen a problem with the communication button meme if the already pre-existing views of Curly’s character weren’t already becoming an issue. In moderation-the meme can be funny!! It’s just a repeated act of dehumanization that’s a little alarming.
Glad you’re talking on this, seeing disabled characters infantilized makes me sick as I have disabilities myself. Disability doesn’t equal punishment, the hell?!
the two types of people i hate r people who baby disabled people and who say u cant crush on the character because they're disabled, do these people realize they're still human?
The only thing I'd add is that I don't think people swap Jimmy and Curly's circumstances to say "Jimmy deserves to be disabled"; what happened to Curly was awful, Jimmy is a terrible person, so people want to see something awful happen to Jimmy. It's gratifying to people to see terrible people suffer. Not that that's the best either, but it's not necessarily about disability.
I can understand why Jimmy is disliked for his actions-I hold a very strong distaste for him also, but even with that in mind-the idea of having him ‘suffer’ in the way that Curly does just seems a bit odd. Becoming disabled still is seen as a form of “karmic justice” in this scenario, and in turn is still an issue and will reflect how disabled people are treated irl. It’s not necessarily *meant* to be a form of demonizing disability, but it still does so regardless.
@@MerRantsim pretty sure curly is in intense pain thats why they want to see jimmy experiencing what he goes through, his disability would be an addition if he weren’t suffering so much
You verbalised something that’s been in the back of my mind!! Especially the retribution point, I have seen SO MANY comments saying that curly “deserved” what happened?? Like ummm that’s kinda weird.. 🤨 Anyway this video did a really good job of pointing out something wrong with the fandom right now! /gen :)
So correct. There can honestly be so much said about how media over the years has used disabled characters in works. How stories like Flowers for Algernon or Mice of Men have disabled men that have been read as symbols of innocence/purity. I always felt this uncomfortable feeling when it comes to these characters, that even if they do some concerning things they are still portrayed as innocent and not knowing any better. I'm so glad that a story like Mouthwashing is able to make Curly accountable for his mistakes without glorifying him. Also, personally I much prefer the idea of Curly living rather than just dying because it's the idea better of taking responsibility. Also cuz I find it somewhat gross that its like "Oh, they should just put him out of his misery." or "He'll finally be at peace." Like... Dude...
as someone who IS physically disabled (chronic lyme disease), i never let this thing bother me that much?? but it might be because i've never really peeked into that specific aspect of fandoms and never plan to. on the other hand, curly is mostly treated like an object or a quest in the game, but i feel like we the player should see him as more than that. people have also been exposed to subtle ableism their entire lives, including myself, so its so normalized for them that they may not even realize that it's weird/wrong
That game uses what and who you can interact with (and when) as characterization and narrative elements (much like its predecessor How Fish Is Made used the environment to tell the story for the game as much as the dialogue), which is why it drives me nuts people don't see Curly being a task or a prop as part of HOW JIMMY PERCEIVES HIM. LITERALLY YOU GET THE SOCK PUPPET ACHIEVEMENT FOR HAVING JIMMY PLAY WITH CURLY'S MOUTH AND OPENING AND CLOSING IT INSTEAD OF GIVING HIM THE PAINKILLERS. He's framed as a prop and as a task IN JIMMY'S OWN HEAD because Jimmy DOESN'T SEE HIM AS HUMAN ANYMORE. When he isn't relevant you can't "select" him, either-- like the Polle statue stops being remarkable once it's broken. (the entire game refusing to give you choices, too, only letting you divert briefly from an intended route and in ways that "correct" itself, is a choice from the dev team-- neither Curly nor Jimmy want to change anything about who they are and how they act, for better or worse, when you play in their respective sections, and the way the inventory descriptions are written it's clear that the game mechanics ARE part of Curly and Jimmy's thought processes.) That people don't realize the gameplay is ALSO part of the narrative makes me immensely sad, especially when there's also SO MUCH CARE with Curly in his implementation in game. His eye *tracks you* the whole time-- if you use freecam to go to the other side of the gurney he tracks you perfectly to the new angle, you just see it very limitedly in normal play until the valve puzzle. His breathing is diegetic-- it's made to be louder the closer you get, and it changes depending on circumstances and gives you a feel for how tense or relaxed Curly is at that point in the game. He's not implemented as a prop, but a full-on character with more attention given to him than to anyone else (he's the only one who makes ambient breathing sounds, he's the only one who has actually working eyetracking, since everyone else uses textures), and then he's reduced to a prop and task via the UI that's meant to be visualizing how Jimmy thinks. Curly is just... PRESENT in a way that no one else in the game is. I can't understand how people think of him the same way as Jimmy when everything in the game SCREAMS at you the player to notice Curly and watch him watch Jimmy like a hawk.
I never liked seeing characters get infantilized but especially ones that are disabled, it feels so gross to view someone with disabilities as "childish" or "childlike". I feel like its because some people see it as a way to take care of someone and it lets them fill a parental role so they see the disabled person as a child n imagine taking care of them. idk but i think its rlly gross
THANK YOU!!!! I remember talking with some other ppl abt Mouthwashing and when I was explaining how curly got all the injuries someone just goes “that’s when he turned into a burnt chicken nugget” which???? I feel like when people think of Mouthwashing they sorta forget abt the real world situations all the characters go through and just take it and make it *too* much of a joke
This is such a big issue and it's insane. A similar thing happened within Thefamousfilms's fandom. He has a fnaf minecraft rp and one of the characters became wheelchair bound. The jokes were funny at first but it quickly got out of hand. It took multiple disabled fans speaking out about it and the creators to tell people off for it to die down. It wasn't to this extreme but it's a thing I've seen a lot.
I love curly as a character. Hes my favorite, and im not trying to infantize him. My hc for him as i am a age regressor in real life is he was a regressor even before the crash. I kinda just wanted to add something of myself to him as a hc. Even after he got better he still used age regression after he got better as a coping mechanism. Even then i know its not canon, im not infantizing him nor disabled people as i am mentally disabled myself aka autistic and have adhd along with some disorders that i got from trauma.
5:15 to nitpick, I dont think hes always fully there since he's constantly on an opioid painkiller and ìs likely very exhausted and has a cloudy mind from the extreme pain he's in HOWEVER, later in the game, the only thing they can give him is simple over the counter acetaminophen. which means he'll be more present. he'll sadly also probably be going through real bad withdrawal since oxcycodone is highly addictive I can see jokes about curly being high on pain meds. but otherwise even on pain killers he can probably still think and have moments of clarity. I think during the time he's taking oxcycodone he'll be very sleepy most times and have a lot of beain fog when awake since most of the time nothing is going on and he'll just be sitting there in pain. I still think he's able to comprehend his situation and most of what goes on around him depending on how awake and alert he is at the moment but yeah largely agree with your point in general, if it weren't for him being exhausted, in pain, and high on drugs then his mind is perfectly fine. in the later half of the game he's also probably much more aware too
I also feel like another fandom I’m in that has problems with this is the Regretevator fandom- granted that game has a MUUUUCH lighter tone than Mouthwashing and most of the fandom doesn’t do this, but there’s a character in that game who has brain damage (his name is Spud) and I’ve seen some work that depicts him in a somewhat infantilizing way. It’s really, really rare but I’m just a bit worried about what might happen if the game blew up more, since stuff like this can be a bit of a slippery slope.
Also the Wicked Fandom has this problem, since that play has a disabled character who behaves antagonistically and some people have used that as an excuse to just be ableist towards her
Im not into mouthwashing but ive seen art of curly using dog buttons and just thought it looked painful considering he has to put PRESSURE ONTO the buttons for them to actually work while he has exposed flesh.. yikes
I believe the protagonist deserves karma, but Curly's disability shouldn't be viewed as some punishment. He went through an accident, not suddenly losing his limbs and skin because he looked at someone wrong!
I remember someone on pinterest mentioned that someone on tiktok made a post about curly on how he's more 🍇able than Anya since he's disabled and it hurts more for him. (I hate tiktok more) 😭😭....
If Curly ever knew about how some of the fanbase treats him, he'd suffer even more than before knowing that he's not treated like an adult man anymore just bcs of his injuries
this issue is so bizarre to me when it comes to this fandom, because like -- the game did a really good job humanizing curly and making you see the tragedy of his mutilation by showing his original state and capabilities? like?? how can you still treat him as if he's a child or a dog when the game itself is urging you to see him as a real person undergone something horrific??
Agreed, 100%. I’m not physically disabled, but I have a developmental one, specifically being on the spectrum. And, the AMOUNT OF TIMES I’ve seen people on the spectrum be infantilized because they can’t read social cues as well, or the amount of times they’re villainized because they have low empathy, or even just siloed into the gremlin archetype because “they’re just a little guy who loves machines and not people”, it’s like… it’s what opened my eyes to the disgusting and sometimes inadvertent ways people with disabilities are treated. When I was a kid, I was never taught about this stuff, and as I got older and learned better, I just became disgusted and enraged, because A) it’s not fair and cruel. B) it’s moronic, and C) it’s othering. People with disabilities are people first, and while that doesn’t mean we should just pretend we all don’t have differences, that also doesn’t mean we treat people with disabilities like they aren’t people. If they need a bit of different treatment, that doesn’t make them babies. If they don’t react the same way as you do, that doesn’t make them alien. If they don’t communicate the same way as you do, that doesn’t make them animals.
i tried commenting like twice already but apparently youtube does not like me HOWEVER i absolutely agree with you. as somebody who struggles with a phys disability [ chronic pain from scoliosis ] it makes me so mad when people do this
Hi! I'm disabled (MS) and I personally have no problem with desabled people being the butt of a joke, but I hate hate HATE it when we get dehumanized like that. You sometimes can't even tell anymore that this character is a real person (in that universe ofc). I don't know much about Mouthwash but I know enough at this point. I don't get offended easily so I mostly just brush it off; would probably be different if I was a fan of MW. xD
another big victim of this is Viktor from Arcane. he is CANONICALLY both smart and, while physically fragile, strong. and yet i’ve seen people say “oh he gets Jayce to tie his shoes!!” like no that’s a grown man with a disability…
you might be right.....disregarding my previous comment, I ended up delving into Mouthwash on pinterest and shit got weird. I guess I only saw the surface level stuff. all of the stuff I originally saw was the typical meme things fandoms push out. I saw some truly horrifying things from this fandom in a days time. also I kind of "infantilize" characters I like because I self project onto them, I have many traditionally "childish" interests like cartoons, beads, plushies, etc.
Tbh Curly getting punished for what he "didn't do" angers me. The fandom isn't taking this game seriously and imo are actually acting like the person they all hate fucking jimmy. Sexualization, making people less than human all shit he did to Anya. Saying jimmy should be sa or etc like that is disgusting yes he's bad but wtf yall. He should be in jail or shouldn't have been a copilot in the first place..not whatever the fuck I see people say should happen. This fandom made me leave the fandom and I was legit a fan of Wrong organ before the game was even made. Curly didn't deserve what happened. If people actually looked deeper in the game we never see shit in Curly's perspective fully. Like who knows in other parts we never see He could have actually tried to do something. He cared about everyone it's hard to see bad in people you care alot about, he wanted to fix everything. The only thing is he didn't keep everyone safe from the real danger that was right beside him. and Jimmy just was so full of himself jealous and hungry for power he didn't have leading him to not take responsibility for his actions and blame it on others that he caused issues to. If anyone has noticed Anya's Card was in the cabinet in the cockpit meaning Curly was planning on a report or thinking of it. Even if he was able to make one wtf would that do?? The company doesn't care about them and probably would have put it under the rug. Legit one poster says that if someone messes up everyone is fucked which means while he could make one the crew is still fucked by the actions of jimmy??? Not everything is black in white there's so many layers to this game that legit hurts to see people take it like Ohhh he didn't instantly do something he's bad. LIKE IF YOU WERE CAPTAIN OF A SHIP IN SPACE AND A CREW MATE SAYS SHE WAS SA BY YOUR BEST FRIEND YOU TRUSTED CARED ABOUT AND HELPED HIM NOT DO BAD SHIT. ARE YOU SUDDENLY JUST GONNA DO SOMETHING EXPESUALLY HOW JIMMY ACTED AT CURLY'S PARTY??? MEANING HE CAN GET INSTANTLY ANGRY AND DO STUFF WITHOUT THINKING. like geez people OPEN YOUR EYES!?? It's not everyone tho in this fandom I'm relieved there are some people that have respect for the game and aren't being gross. Like as a person who went somewhat through what anya was and Having disability and being child how ppl treat curly just is sick and disgusting, overall disrespectful to sa victims and ppl with disabilities. Anyway sorry about this long rant and thank you for this video Mer ❤.
DUDE YES the whole dog thing and treating him like and i quote "no braincells" definitely made me jumpship on the fandom and just enjoy the game from afar
One aspect that makes this whole thing even less good and even weirder is the fact that the game does have a character who is younger and well meaning but not really wise or knows how to handle things and is symbolically innocence. His name is Daisuke. That's Daisuke's role in the story, being the most youthful and naive one. Swansea's arch is about his sort of father-son dynamic he has with Daisuke, and the big tragedy of that arch is Swansea argueably infantalizing the man himself by not letting him choose weather or not to have the 'mercy' he gave him. If they were going to infantalize anyone, which I please ask they don't. Daisuke makes the most sense given that being the most naive of the crew and well meaning but not exactly competent yet is sort of his whole point
As someone who has disabled siblings (neurodivergent brother + physically disabled sister) it kinda annoys the f__k outta me when stuff like this happens (ESPECIALLY when people try to infantilize those with disabilities) It's just straight up annoying when people do that. Edit: typo
This reminds me a bit of nagito from Danganronpa, he’s been through a lot of stuff and traumatic things due to having the “ultimate lucky student” talent, (and he has a brain disease, which is why he always has a sickly appearance. He is perfectly functioning though and it’s not like his bedridden or anything) and I’ve seen so many people baby him, LIKE STOP- he is a very smart person, and people need to stop babying him. It sucks that this happens in a lot of other fandoms too, sure you can feel bad for the character but there is no need to baby them.
Thank you for bringing this up. It really pisses me off as someone with autism that everyone says papyrus is. HE’S MEANT TO BE SIMPLY STUPID, FOR COMEDIC EFFECT.
That’s a thing I’ve noticed with most fandoms nowadays, “oh that character is slightly quirky? They obviously have autism”. Like not every autistic person is some quirky goofball who can’t go five seconds without shouting about something they like.
he's not stupid, there's actually a lot of proof in the source material papyrus knows a lot more than we think, he simply puts on different personalities or acts with different people, there's a video you can probably find about this. it's actually a very interesting part of his character!
i like this point but also, I tend to hc talkative, loud, and/or "quirky" characters like Papyrus as autistic because I relate to them and Im autistic. Is that different? (/genq, I don't want to end up offending someone by implying all characters like that are autistic)
@The_Casualest_of_Chaoses yeah i agree, i understand wanting to be sensitive and thinking that fandoms seeing every "quirky" character as autistic can be offensive, but also they have to consider the fact that 99% of these people that are headcanoning these charcaters as autistic ARE AUTISTIC. it circles back to being exclusive, not allowing autistic people to view themselves in these characters because these people don't see the depth of them and only see them for their surface level "quirkiness".
The fact this happens irl makes me disgusted. As soon as something is obviously weird or wrong about you people immediately treat you differently. And seeing how people treat a fictional character makes me horrified how they would treat a real human.
Great video!! Man, fandoms can kinda suck sometimes- unrelated, but I've been watching your videos for a little bit now, and i really like how you draw!! The face proportions are so cute and cool and i love the rendering
Thanks for talking about this!! it is very important and I 100% agree with you!! i used to be okay with this kinda thing because of how common it was but now I know its wrong, and I'm glad people keep talking about how it's bad so more people realize it's really weird for people to be treated this way!!
I cosplayed as post crash curly on Roblox. I do like to roleplay as him in different roleplay games on there. A few days ago I was roleplaying with my bestie on a fnaf rp game and people came up to me saying stuff like “can I pet him?“ or “can he talk?”. I do know that some people may not know the game but seriously??😭😭😭
I’ve also seen people sexualize him. These people are into those who need constant support to survive, unable to do anything because they cannot speak or pick things up or walk cause they don’t have their limbs anymore. It’s absolutely disgusting how people view and treat him now. All your points are also there. The dehumanization, objectification, infantilization. It genuinely makes me wanna vomit.
i'm torn on this because i have a chronic skin condition so people still finding a heavily-scarred curly attractive is reassuring. but ngl it's also a bit disheartening that works with this particular theme are rarely centred around making pleasure accessible, but about the helplessness of it all.
@ It’s nice that they find it attractive cause that means people will find you attractive. But their reasoning for being attracted to him is that he’s completely helpless and it’s easy for them to do whatever they want to him. Yeah, I can see why you’re torn.
Remember folks: fictional characters are objects. You can treat them/talk about them however you want so long as you dont talk to/treat real people likr that.
THANK YOU about the last point. I've seen people say that Curly "deserved what he got" and that's honestly such a weird and gross way to think about it????
It seems like the fandom talks about curly more than anyone else because of what happened to him. Just him as a character makes me feel so bad and empathetic😢.
(Im physically disabled) I’ve talked to some friends who are also fans of mouthwashing and one of them, ND but not physically disabled, and they mentioned the dog button animation and how they thought it was funny. Which was. Not the most enjoyable experience. But I explained the issue with it and my discomfort and everything ended up fine. But it’s interesting to think that people who are able bodied but ND will still see this stuff and not understand how uncomfortable it is. (I’m not upset with that friend at all, they didn’t know. And we’ve hashed things out)
within the context of the story and game, i believe that curly's disability is a way to physically lock him into the choice of being a bystander, and to let the consequences of his actions really sink in narrative-wise. the karma isnt really the disability itself, the disability is a brutal way for curly to experience the consequences of keeping certain people around him and helping them. as in the disability IS an accident and not a punishment, but this accident taking him out of the drivers seat of both his own life and the position of authority he held over those around him allowed for said people's true colors to shine as a consequence. its the same as how a person growing old and weak wouldn't be a punishment for their past sins, but the way others treat them once they're old and weak would be the consequence. curly's disability is a vehicle for the consequences he must face and the responsibility he can no longer take. that said, i believe artist intent and reception by audiences are two correlating but separate things. ur right about how the fandom treats curly. there's too much of haha funny guy no limbs and not enough curly is still conscious and is now forced to be at the mercy of those around him. hes been reduced to just some fucked up creature, and that really sucks. its understandable to dislike it whenever disability is portrayed as punishment. its a common trope and bc its common, it implies that disabled people must have done something bad to deserve it.
Within the story-it’s really interesting to analyze how Curly’s lost his autonomy completely. And I think it’s interesting that there’s a form of humanization done by the developers while still being objectified at the same time by the unreliable narrator (Jimmy, obviously.) Because it’s very clear within the mechanics that were implemented that he’s still thinking, and that Curly’s *still there*. The use of disability in the case of Mouthwashing itself was never really the issue for me! It was tackled in a way that felt understandable, and the irony of Curly now being in a place of lack of decision to that extent was done with intent not precisely to dehumanize. But it I find the issues itself within how the fandom interprets this (very layered) character and then strips him down to just his disability, and making it the butt of the joke. It’s a bummer because there’s so much interesting stuff to discuss within Curly’s character himself, and how disability affects him-and that feels overshadowed by the fanbase’s own portrayal of the character. And a LOT of the things that Curly’s character has faced in the fandom also applies to the way disabled people are treated in real life, since in many ways fiction affects reality. Which is why it’s so important to me that videos discussing why this is an issue within fandom spaces is made! Once people are conscious about how they’re treating disability in fiction, I hope that that consciousness then in turn bleeds into proper real-life treatment.
I have a few physically disabled ocs that I talk and roleplay as (they are warrior cats ocs btw) and one has no eyes or back legs. She speaks and acts like a normal warrior (except walking or seeing) but in role-plays, she gets babied a lot. She stays in the medicine den but speaks to others normally. Because of how she got the injuries she still has the availability to comprehend her state and others. Anyways disabled people are still people!! And cats that act like people I guess?? Stan.
I usually draw Curly pre crash and if I do make joke/wholesome art about post crash Curly, it’s not like making him seem like a dog or toddler. Like Daisuke showing Post crash Curly a video type humor where he’s still looks fucked up but is being entertained in some way by someone, I hope that doesn’t come across bad because I ain’t trying to dehumanize or infantilize him because what happened to him was horrid I think the fanbase should make more joke art/wholesome with Curly pre crash since it’d be funnier in my opinion to see jokes with him interacting with the crew and being the straight main that’s positive.
i definitely agree with this, i haven’t thought of it like this before but im glad you brought it up. i’m sure the creators who do the dog communication button videos with curly or smth similar to that are doing it as a joke but it can be harmful to disabled people, mainly physically disabled people.
I don’t know too much about Mouthwashing (i’ve watched a few videos or so), but I agree with how people act like character’s who are implied/canonically disabled like babies/weak. Like, I’m really anemic (not exactly a disability in of it itself - but I do have trouble doing basic actions without struggling but idrk), there’s two characters I love who are also anemic, aka Fyodor from BSD and Kanade from PJSK. I’ve always hated when I see people dumbing down Fyodor just because of his anemia (ex: saying he’s a femboy for not being extremely masculine..? among many, MANY other things) because like…dude HE’S ANEMIC??? Same with Kanade, I don’t see as many people dumbing her down, but the PJSK fandom itself is a mess when it comes to disabled characters (Like Saki Tenma). I don’t want to speak over anyone’s experiences, but I agree with the topic that fandoms seem to make characters that are disabled like adult toddlers, which always sucks. Great video, though!
The other day i saw a video of Isha from Arcane with that stupid dog button filter and it made me SO mad. (If you don’t know who that is, Isha is a non-speaking character that appears in the second season of arcane. Why she doesn’t talk isn’t specified but it’s been theorized she’s mute or autistic or deaf.) She is not an animal just because she’s a child and in the show she is treated with respect. She even uses her own little sign language to communicate with another character at one point. She moves the story forward in very important ways and being reduced to a goddamn dog for being disabled is SO DISRESPECTFUL. GET AWAY FROM HER. GET A JOB.
Oh thank god someone’s finally talking about this. Most of the criticism I’ve seen of the fandom is just over shipping and other standard fandom behavior, while completely glossing over the rampant ableism :/
Curly is a ship captian and has probably gone through training for the position that he's in especially since they make it clear that he's been the captian of his crew for several trips. Curly couldn't even use those dog buttons because HE HAS NO HANDS!! Not to mention how PAINFUL it would be for him to hit the buttons! And that's not even me going into how having him use dog buttons makes him less of a human character and so on. BUT Curly as the captian of a crew should know Morse code either by tapping or the lights being flipped on and off or hell the line and dot stuff should work to! I'm sure someone on the ship also knows Morse code to translate like maybe Jumbo since he is a Co pilot it only makes since for him to know some of it to (though I wouldn't trust him with anything Curly related). HELL SWANSEA SHOULD KNOW MORSE CODE!! My friend let me rant and so i thought i should put my rant here Curly is MY FAVORITE character and i will defend him to my grave against this fandom! Curly needs medical help not to be treated like a DOG or for what happened to be a punishment! And dont even mention how he 'didnt help anya' i will rant about how neither him or j*mmy where in the right and neither is the fandom for laughing at the tragic story of these characters.
@@dukiesvvh the overuse and negative use of the word cripple and treating him like he’s some useless lump instead of a troll rubs me the wrong way (saying this as a huge Tavros fan)
@@SneezeCake REAL i didnt even like tavros at first (love him now tbh) but the way he was treated by the narrative AND other characters?? ableism is like genuinely one of homestuck's main themes and it's despicable.
@@dukiesvvh 100% REAL! I’m honestly considering making a video in defense of Tavros new why I like him so I can prove he’s actually a great and competent character
@@SneezeCake that's a good idea! ive considered making one myself about how prevelant both the ableism and sexism are throughout homestuck, i think it's genuinely such an interesting deep dive id love to watch yours when it comes out! :)
I think it's much telling of Curly's character that in the AU where Jargon is the amputee, despite Anya wanting to harm him, Curly decides to hold her back, and make sure that despite everything Jar Jar Binks did, he still gave him the dignity of a fair trial, and treated him the most humanely of them all, despite knowing full well that Jollibes is an absolute monster.
Honestly, until this comment I hadn’t realized I’d called him Captain Curly the whole time! It was an absentminded choice-but I’m glad it made an impact!!
Great points, but i dont really get the part about dog buttons? Dog buttons have been used for disabled people longer than for dogs, so i don't really see it as comparing Curly to a dog.
@@pillblug It was the *most* common example of Curly being treated as a dog-but as a whole there’s a lot of ‘memes’ or jokes where Curly is placed in the dog category in. It’s not inherently an issue as a standalone thing: but it’s a repeated joke thematically it cements a lot of negative stereotyping. Again-not a huge issue with dog buttons as a concept or to be used in a joking manner!! But there’s a reason that we’ve technologically moved past using Dog Buttons for disabled people, y’know?
I really dont think its as deep, though you make good points and i like this breakthrough. The big thing to note here is that these are fictional characters and people LOVE coddling fictional characters. You will have the most horrible, vile, cruel, sadistic characters in media and people will put mf in a maid dress. As for disability not being a punishment; it itself isnt directly a punishments, its when it happens with the intention of causing harm. Overall, good video!
also i understand saying "hes my baby" as a joke but dude some people reallyyyy overstep it (why are you making the character a coquette baby in a stroller with a pink binky)
So this is a bit of an old and maybe even bad example, but I’m going to talk about the DHMIS (Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared) fandom for a moment, specifically one of the 3 main characters Yellow Guy (or Doi/Manny as the fandom calls him) Throughout the series, Manny/Doi acts kinda childish, giving the idea that he’s a child, yet he’s seen dealing with powerful emotions like an adult, leading to people making headcannons that he might be neurodivergent Now, there is no problem with this headcannon at face value, in fact I think it works very well, my problem is the infantilization he faces from the fandom, perhaps as a result of this. As far as anyone knows, Doi/Manny could be in his 20s, but the fandom treats him like he’s an unknowing, innocent toddler, and not a deeply traumatized, possibly even age regressed man trying his best to understand the crazy world around him. This isn’t a problem I’ve dealt with before the DHMIS fandom, and it’s almost sad to see that others fandoms still infantilize disabled characters like Curly and Manny. Again, this could be a bad example, but I just felt like adding this here because it was the first thing that came to my mind after watching this entire video That’ll be all for now, have a great rest of your week everyone.
I genuinely just feel bad for the guy and wanna' see him heal - it's too easy unfortunately for stuff like this to forget that he's not only a grown ass man, but not a baby or completely innept. Like yeah, physically, he's limited now, but damn he's just trying to cope with the pain - if anyone wanted to do anything beneficial for him, i think the best thing would to be to get his ass to a hospital and y'know... Away from jiminy crappit
Not related to Mouthwashing but ive seen some people in the Dandys World fanbase treat Flutter (mute + no arms) in a similar way to Pebble, a dog. (Despite them being a butterfly, not a real butterfly but close to one, the game itself makes it clear they arent an animal and act similar to the other non-animal characters.) Usually in the way of either: A. Acting weird and saying you cant put them in romantic pairings or ships Or even worse, B. Shipping Flutter with pebble. The dog. I dont know just how bad it is due to being neutral on Flutter (and most other characters) as a whole, but i dont want to see anymore if its more of that.
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS. as someone who ships gigi x flutter its so aggravating having people constantly judge me for shipping it bc "flutters an animal". flutter functions like all the other toons, shes just disabled 😭 and the way nobody would be saying stuff like this if she wasnt mute too.
people also have this tendency to treat him like The Monster when...no? He's a disabled person and you always see him as a disabled person in the segments where you are in your right mind post-crash. His injuries are disturbing to look at and the constantly staring wide open eye does come off as threatening (which it should considering what he knows about jimmy and actively suffers from his abuse) but he's still just a man. Jimmy's hallucinations regarding Curly are mostly about feeling watched and judged (as he should) and how he sees taking care of him as a disgusting and cumbersome chore (awful but makes sense because jimmy is a bad person). Even with JIMMY it's never about his appearance, and the only disability related part is jimmy being mad he has to do something for someone except himself (he doesn't even. anya offers to do it in the end every time.) some people haven't gotten past the childhood stage of being annoying and weird about visibly disabled people and it's very obvious
I honestly had no idea this was happening (which is impressive because I watch A LOT of mouthwashing content) it could be because I watch a lot of the j*mmy suffering ones, the angst ones, and just the ones of mah baybees (not infantilizing, I call everyone this) Swansee Anya and whitsuke- I mean Daisuke 😋 I personally don’t see a lot of curly animations that aren’t just sad or him dancing with the rest of the crew, it kinda sucks that this is happening:((
I love Curly so much, I love him aftercrash and precrash I seriously fw him heavily ,,and it is odd to me when people treat him like a cute silly dog, I do think he's cute don't take me wrong but it takes away from his character
Definitely depends on the context for me. Mouthwashing is a horror game and expecting fan-content to be black and white in morality is frankly naive in my eyes. I've read/seen horror media created by disabled people where the dehumanization/infantilization of disabled people is the point of said media, it's a horror piece, it's horrifying, that and I don't think more humorous content is that bad either if the intent is the horror involved with that contrast. I prefer judging creators on how they treat real disabled people over a fictional one, the "perfect victim"-ification of both Curly and Anya has just been insufferable and ironically demonizes real people who aren't traumatized or whatever the "right" way.
It’s kinda weird how people call curly a silly lil goober, or dehumanize him, I mean, dude just went through A LOT 😔 something like this doesnt make you more nor less human.
fandoms are very not normal about complex disabled characters who aren't perfect angels ngl, there's a famous post by an arcane fan on twitter saying that viktor is the proof that the undercity is dangerous people who are too gleeful at playing up the disabled villain tropes (bond villains or, hell, even extremely bad faith interpretation of curly) are also weird since irl disabled people are likelier to be victims that's it, i'm gatekeeping viktor
Id like to add, while disability is not a punishment, i also dont think thats what people mean; in the end, his inaction is what caused the crash, his injuries, and in the end, the deaths of 5 (though one worthless) people including him. I think in game itself, whether or not I think this is ever applicable to the real world, his injuries are depicted more as a conequence than a punishment and to also show somewhat as a reflection of the lack of autonomy anya was dealt by Jimmy, and showing how Jimmy only cares when Curly loses it as opposed to her; I think infantalizing Curly is disrespectful and ableist at worst, and at best very dismissive of him and his character, i think just dismissing him as evil is, well, dismissive, but I also think calling him a good or even neutral person is giving way more credit than he deserves.
one time I was playing mouthwashing rp as shriveled up salami curly but then an exploiter Jimmy made a rope tool and grabbed me with I and said walk like a dog... It was weird
I think people can call Curly a “cute little guy” as long as they’re like…aware that he’s disabled. I think he’s cute/hot before and after the crash but I’m not gonna like actually baby him if he was real. Hell, I don’t think he’d survive if he was real. I’m not gonna baby actual real disabled people like I do with fictional characters. I’m not babying my disabled grandpa like I do Curly.
I cant see any type of excuse for why people treat Curly as an animal or child other than the fact hes an amputee. A character that visually looks similar to curly is Joshua Graham as he is a burn victim BUT he is abled. I see people in comment sections treating Joshua Graham as a cool person because he IS but then the same people see Curly and think hes a person who thinks like an actual child If Curly wasn't disabled he would NOT be treated like this IN MY OPINION!!
the “dog buttons” were made to help disabled people, but I see why it’s uncomfortable and de humanizing with the “talking dogs” thing being well known edit: to be fair tho, I haven’t seen art like that
i'm physically disabled but not a burn victim so take this with a grain of salt . but smth i also see within the fandom and perhaps the game itself is how curly's disability is seen as like.. body horror . i'm not saying that can't be done well, but idk i don't think disabled bodies r inherently creepy or scary?? burn victims and others who r considered "deformed" already face discrimination for how they look yk . again this is just my opinion and how i perceive the game/fandom so uhh. Yeah
fr !!! I got a burned/deformed foot and i hate how burns are always used on evil characters and as something thats 'scary'... not very helpful of the self image. also i have the option to hide it by just wearing normal shoes so i dont even have the brunt of the stigma, ((besides the avg stigma of disability)) so if someone couldnt, like a burn on the face, the stigma would really impact them socially. also the whole "scarred on the outside is a metaphor for scarred on the inside" is stupid as shit imo.
I mean, it could be used as personal body horror. I'm not in the fandom, so I don't know how it's being done, but personal body horror/not recognizing yourself/ self disgust is a really interesting way to explore characters and give them later growth and acceptance. so if they're not doing it that way then they should be
i definitely think it's scary in that it's a scary scenario to be in, it's obviously gonna be really painful for him but also not being able to move or speak or really do anything about it is even scarier, but i definitely get how him just "looking creepy" or whatever is a weird place to get the horror from. it's a psychological horror game but i honestly didn't know that when i first saw the game because of how much focus people put onto how curly looks, i thought there was going to be a large focus on body horror, and really it's just kind of weird.
I think it’s because he literally looks like a corpse. Of course that’s harsh said but literally, he has no skin whatsoever, missing limbs and is (if I’m seeing it right) really bloody. Big wounds, missing limps, intense burns and loss of things like skin and organs etc ARE considered body horror. Curlys character is meant to look scary and disturbing (can’t remember the exact reasoning but it’s smth to do with the crash and how he sees jimmy) and people are allowed to find it scary and disturbing too. I don’t think people are fond of looking at a human who is deformed to their flesh and bones and is practically a corpse barely surviving.
So i was in the much "darker"/??/ serious? (mostly animatic/animation,) side of the fandom, i dont mess with fic tumbler space for this fandom, and i had no idea this infantilization of Curly was going on to this degree.
I could only imagine the thoughts going through Curly’s head post crash, constantly being in pain, being fully conscious and forced to watch the aftermath of the mistakes and choices he made. Hell! He was fully conscious and most likely had to watch Anya take her own life!
I have seen some fan content where he thankfully gets prosthetic limbs and PROPER tools for communication! And I like those, they’re very wholesome.
Curly is one of my favorite characters in the game and it hurts seeing how he gets treated by a majority of the fandom.
he definitely saw anya overdose and its also likely that he had to watch daisuke's death aswell because of the camera angle
I’ve seen one where he gets the ability to write! Even while he’s still badly injured, Anya gives him a way to write which I like a lot!
I legit have to avoid the mouthwashing fandom, even talking about it with friends, because it genuinely upsets me so much when people are like this
@ feeel
Hey just curious, what are some of these "proper" tools for communication?
“Curly’s so small and silly >///
he is a grown ass man, not a toddler. it disgusts me how people infantilize people who are disabled.
I don't know the characters so when I first saw people make curly that way, I thought that was how he was, but he isn't from that I've heard from others, I'm lucky people tell me all these
People would rather infantilize him and characters like him than admit his situation is horrifying BECAUSE he is not a child nor a dog or not conscious.
fr.
Isn't that just a fictional character though
this is an issue that happens irl too. like if someone has a speach impediment others will treat them as if its a brain issue. it CAN be but that doesn't mean all are. and even if it IS a brain issue, that is still a human and deserves respect and not to be patronized
UgHGHJGASghshgashgsfaghha AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (real)
Yes! I remember a nurse being utterly incapable of communicating with me like the almost legal adult I was simply because I was unable to verbally communicate at the time (was having an autistic meltdown in a mental health clinic). First, she asked me complex question that required eloquent answers that I could not provide and she didn't even bother getting me something to write or attempting to as yes or no question but rather went on to completely ignore me an speaking to my mother instead. Like, lady, I'm right here! It's literally your job to work with people like me, figure something out!
I totally agree with your points on infantilization. It honestly reminds me of what the Undertale fandom did with Papyrus and Swap Sans
LITERALLY!!! Dude they were infantilized sooo bad at Undertale’s peak. ESPECIALLY with Swap Sans ☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽
It was blueberry x normal him at that point loll and while I do like drawing him in a cutesy way, there comes a point where it just gets weird. HE'S A GROWN MAN. 😂
Okay FIGHT ME /j I love treating all my favorite silly skeleton men as little babies ,:p this includes the ones that commit multiversal war crimes (error is baby)
I didn’t know anything about Mouthwash but finding out Curly is a human was shocking. I didn’t know he was one as I had seen the infantilization and dehumanization of him and thought he was a creature, let’s not treat disabled people like this oh my god
I WAS THE SAME WAY BEFORE I GOT INTO MOUTHWASHING, i was so confused & honestly weirded out??? like thats a literal grown man!!
OMG ME TOO??? MY JAW DROPPED FINDING OUT WOAH
the creature
Ngl I also thought that but for different reasons. TH-camrs kept putting him in the thumbnail like he was the "scary monster" of the game.
God I also thought that and was extremely disgusted by the infantilization of him by fandom after experiencing Mouthwashing. This is coming from someone who is disabled and it's just... So uncomfortable.
Something I’ve personally noticed with the fandom’s treatment of curly is that most non-joke/cutesy fanart of him that isn’t horror uses his pre-crash design, which isn’t inherently a bad thing you can use that design all you want, but personally I’d like to see more art humanizing disfigured curly. Not saying all mouthwashing fanartists do this, but I just think the physically disabled character shouldn’t have to have their disability erased whenever theyre not being infantilized/dehumanized/used for horror. That’s just what I observed tho, I’m not sure if this is a super common thing in the fandom
What's sad is that his post-crash design is infinitely cooler than his pre-crash one: he looks straight out of Evangelion, and if people are going to ignore that he probably can't move at all for all the dehumanizing memes they might as well also overlook it for humanizing interactions too.
Are you mostly watching videos and/or tiktoks about mouth washing? Because i usually see Curly's post-crash design in fanart and it's usually drawn normally or super artistic when looking at Tumblr and other fanart places. If anything, I think he's the second best depicted person most of the time. On the sites I browse, Daisuke is usually whitewashed and Swansea is made to look skinnier (we don't talk about jambalaya). Anya seems to be the most consistently best depicted in fanart, but I think Curly is the second?
I saw a comic/animation where they show what might happen to curly if he gets found in his cryo pod. Seeing Curly living a relatively normal life with his injuries was somethi g
Oh the pirate au on tumblr by vioorel has a wonderful post crash curly design.
@@Parasolhyena omg yesss ive seen that au!!
Reminder those "dog communication buttons" are AAC BUTTONS. they're not for dogs. People get them for their dogs but they're made for PEOPLE. I do understand that there has been weird art of curly like on the floor pressing these things like a dog and that's weird and dehumanizing, but these buttons are not "dog buttons" they're AAC devices disabled people do use
@Izaacs_notDeadOf Course! Contextually, these devices existed for disabled people before using them for dogs. However-in the situation of the meme that this is pulled from-they’re being used particularly for dogs. Which is why in this video I called them such!! I realize now it sounds a lot like erasure on my end.
As a resource, AAC buttons are extremely helpful!! But in this case-they’re not being used in the way that they were intended for human-wise. I agree with you completely :3
Yeah I’ve seen one animation that I think did it well, where it’s not played as a cute thing or a joke, but instead as “what would he say if he had access to one?”
I will note I am autistic and sometimes have trouble grasping new ideas that have to do with social things like this, so If I’m not getting the entire point, that’s why. I understand how the buttons are being used in the fandom and how it’s dehumanising, but I don’t always recognise WHEN someone is being treated as this way, especially if it’s a fictional character and/or if the content has a humorous tone.
This has been bothering me since I got in the fandom. I saw an animation of curly on all fours while daisuke looks at him and goes “wow, pretty fucked up looking dog” and like that joke is funny when it’s making light of creepy fictional monsters and stuff, but this is a horrifically disabled burn victim
THIS AND ALSO THE BABY TREATMENT DAISUKE ALSO GETS IN THE FANDOM IS SO WEIRD TO ME LIKE THESE ARE ADULT MEN??
Daisuke does act childish but I don’t like it when people portray him as a stupid toddler, he’s just an energetic and slightly naive ADULT. Not a baby that needs protecting
Sometimes I worry it’s because he’s an Asian character
@@Soggycheeseee He's not even naive, look at how he acts when he gets drunk. The upbeat Daisuke? That's his "brave face". He's lost, lonely, depressed, and he's pretending he's okay and he can fake it until he makes it.
(Swansea is no more reliable of a character judge as the others are-- he's deeply inside of his own head, too, and sees what he wants to see, and no further. He sees only Daisuke's cheerful mask and not the guy who still has no idea what to do with his life and no one who actually sits down with him to help him figure it out and orient him.)
Daisuke's a lot like I was in high school, when people were demanding that I choose a career choice and the career orientor dude was more useless than Jimmy as a captain; no real idea where to go and no one to really have any interest in sitting down with me and helping direct me to a specific career and then giving me the nudges needed to actually GET in that career after, and as someone who was VERY successful at masking my depression, the overly cheerful social mask and incredibly easy to manipulate desire to be someone and help in any way? That also hits way close to home.
Anyway this was my "Daisuke is depressed from day 0 and hiding it with a social mask" TED talk.
@@neoqwerty that’s why I said slightly naive
I didn't know that most of this stuff was happening. But it is sad to see Curly be treated that way. Everything just happened to go south and he was in the crossfire's of it.
The game did change my perspectives on a whole lotta things, especially Curly. He and I have the same mindset of "I can just talk it out and everyone will be back to normal". But that ended up harming everyone else because of his inaction. It was weird when people say that he "deserved it". When he didn't take action because he didn't understand the severity of the situation. Which lead to the events happening in the game.
I think a lot of people misunderstood what curly’s accident and aftermath were supposed to represent, aside of being an allegory and connection in narrative to the same situation of abuse Anya faced with jimmy not respecting her body autonomy it should be labeled properly as a consequence curly faced for his lack of action where he still could do something about jimmy, labeling as a punishment instead of a consequence it’s taking away the tragedy and unfairness of the situation curly faced as a character by the hands of someone he thought was his friend even if he was partially at fault for making jimmy being there and an enabler it didn’t meant he was not a victim as well like Anya was
@@LauraVanessaEscobarSalazar Karmic irony is the term for what happened to Curly: his failure was (for whatever reason that he had) to refuse to take action when he was able to, to the very end, by deflecting and delaying and allowing Jimmy to take control of the situation when confronted; the consequence of his lack of action when Jimmy explained exactly the scenario he wanted to create to "fix everything" was to be FORCED into a state of inaction as an observer with no choice and no control, either over what happens on the ship or over what his body's instinctive reactions are, while Jimmy then got to take control of the situation once again.
It's karmic (it goes in a cycle), but it's not any sort of justice or retribution, just the deeply ironic fate that he got locked into having to keep doing the same thing he did that got them there even if he no longer wants to, and the result is also the same. It's essentially the antithesis to How Fish Is Made and the importance of choice: this is the importance of NOT making a choice.
(also "fixing" can mean rigging an outcome, and I find that very fascinating as a choice of arc words for a character who rigged everything to try to control the narrative the entire time, as an aside. Jimmy was "fixing" things as in rigging a story that wasn't true, even at the very end.)
"he's just a helpless little thing!!!" my brother in christ that is a (seemingly) mid 30 year old man who has enough experience and skill in multiple areas that he's tasked with flying a huge hunk of metal through space and taking care of a crew for a year or more. I swear to god they judt treat him like a little puppy when he was a full ass grown man like a few months ago. and a special fuck you to the people who say his disability is his punishment
anyway tysm for talking abt this issue as a whole. as a disabled person myself I hate it sm
I like curly because he’s so human, he’s such a well writtten morally gray person. Which does make me sad when I see others infantilize him, because it should be easy to put yourself in their position and think about how you’d want others to treat you.
4:43 SO MUCH THIS!! One time, when I was in primary school, this man came to talk to us about something - I forget what it was. But what stuck out to me was that he said, 'Children's brains are not fully formed, so they aren't human. You guys are not human.' And that really rubbed me the wrong way 😭
The fact that a grown man felt it was ok to tell children they are not human is wild. That's something that I bet stuck with a lot of yall 😟
Weird ass thing to say to a child
Nobody's brain is ever "fully formed" lmao
Don't know anything about captain curly or the referenced fanwork, but something very similar to "dog communication buttons" has existed for physically disabled people far longer than it has for pets. Again, I'm not aware of the specific context, but supposing curly was burned so badly he lacks the capability or desire to speak, the buttons are about as "infantalizing" as a wheelchair or prosthetic limb
Even if they are meant to be specifically dog communication buttons, those buttons exist specifically to give their users more autonomy and a method to communicate. We are treating the dogs as if they are humans in this scenario, not the other way around.
I agree with your points as a generalization, but this may have been a bad example.
I can get where you’re coming from!!
To contextualize: the meme itself comes from a meme regarding a dog and communication buttons. So, that’s where the correlation comes from!!
As others have said before: they aren’t a horrible form of communication, but still inadequate and painful for a person like curly to use. If they wanted to do something with communication in mind, there’s already existing evolved versions of speech-communications that wouldn’t be painful or exert overwhelming energy to use.
But the use of Curly being akin to a dog in this meme is a little bit weird in general. As a whole there’s been a lot of “dog memes but we put curly in place of the dog” sort of jokes being passed around and while not inherently harmful-still do perpetuate already existing stereotypes and behaviors.
@MerRants Oh I see. That's much less okay than what I was picturing. Thanks for clarifying :D
@@MerRants OMG I saw that video show up on my recommended. I had no idea that it was bad until now. I didn’t watch it since Mouthwashing isn’t on my list of interest. I’m glad you spoke up about the issue at hand.
Are you talking about AAC devices? /genq
Given the desperate situation the crew is in the dog buttons is probably the only thing curly can use to communicate
I am tired of people calling Curly “silly!!!” And treating him like a dog…. like GUY just got burnt, exploded, AND lost his limbs….. leave him alone rbuh
I call every character silly and I have drawn him asking “where by hug at” (which I don’t think he would do I thought it would be funny). Dog buttons are kinda icky though. I acknowledge he is an adult man and I have drawn him pre crash, you know acting like the adult he is. And I’ve drawn him post crash also in a serious manner, showing the pain he went through. Anyway rant over
I think the meme with the dog saying "I HATE YOU EW EW" can be fine like the dog comunication buttons is more to find a way to how can express (because he cant say and some other problems too) than the joke him being a dog. (also because the audio is funny).(I also saw one video where he use in a more sad way)
But I pretty can see the problem he being treating like a dog, not a human who is a gray character (good to remember that he didnt do anything about Anya situation because he is a friend of Jimmy). Is a topic that I didnt notice and is good to know to handle in a more respecftul way possible.
I wouldn’t have seen a problem with the communication button meme if the already pre-existing views of Curly’s character weren’t already becoming an issue. In moderation-the meme can be funny!! It’s just a repeated act of dehumanization that’s a little alarming.
Glad you’re talking on this, seeing disabled characters infantilized makes me sick as I have disabilities myself. Disability doesn’t equal punishment, the hell?!
the two types of people i hate r people who baby disabled people and who say u cant crush on the character because they're disabled, do these people realize they're still human?
The only thing I'd add is that I don't think people swap Jimmy and Curly's circumstances to say "Jimmy deserves to be disabled"; what happened to Curly was awful, Jimmy is a terrible person, so people want to see something awful happen to Jimmy. It's gratifying to people to see terrible people suffer. Not that that's the best either, but it's not necessarily about disability.
I can understand why Jimmy is disliked for his actions-I hold a very strong distaste for him also, but even with that in mind-the idea of having him ‘suffer’ in the way that Curly does just seems a bit odd. Becoming disabled still is seen as a form of “karmic justice” in this scenario, and in turn is still an issue and will reflect how disabled people are treated irl. It’s not necessarily *meant* to be a form of demonizing disability, but it still does so regardless.
@@MerRants man, he’s not “just disabled”, he’s near death’s door
@@MerRantsim pretty sure curly is in intense pain thats why they want to see jimmy experiencing what he goes through, his disability would be an addition if he weren’t suffering so much
You verbalised something that’s been in the back of my mind!! Especially the retribution point, I have seen SO MANY comments saying that curly “deserved” what happened?? Like ummm that’s kinda weird.. 🤨 Anyway this video did a really good job of pointing out something wrong with the fandom right now! /gen :)
So correct.
There can honestly be so much said about how media over the years has used disabled characters in works. How stories like Flowers for Algernon or Mice of Men have disabled men that have been read as symbols of innocence/purity. I always felt this uncomfortable feeling when it comes to these characters, that even if they do some concerning things they are still portrayed as innocent and not knowing any better. I'm so glad that a story like Mouthwashing is able to make Curly accountable for his mistakes without glorifying him.
Also, personally I much prefer the idea of Curly living rather than just dying because it's the idea better of taking responsibility. Also cuz I find it somewhat gross that its like "Oh, they should just put him out of his misery." or "He'll finally be at peace."
Like... Dude...
as someone who IS physically disabled (chronic lyme disease), i never let this thing bother me that much?? but it might be because i've never really peeked into that specific aspect of fandoms and never plan to.
on the other hand, curly is mostly treated like an object or a quest in the game, but i feel like we the player should see him as more than that. people have also been exposed to subtle ableism their entire lives, including myself, so its so normalized for them that they may not even realize that it's weird/wrong
That game uses what and who you can interact with (and when) as characterization and narrative elements (much like its predecessor How Fish Is Made used the environment to tell the story for the game as much as the dialogue), which is why it drives me nuts people don't see Curly being a task or a prop as part of HOW JIMMY PERCEIVES HIM.
LITERALLY YOU GET THE SOCK PUPPET ACHIEVEMENT FOR HAVING JIMMY PLAY WITH CURLY'S MOUTH AND OPENING AND CLOSING IT INSTEAD OF GIVING HIM THE PAINKILLERS.
He's framed as a prop and as a task IN JIMMY'S OWN HEAD because Jimmy DOESN'T SEE HIM AS HUMAN ANYMORE. When he isn't relevant you can't "select" him, either-- like the Polle statue stops being remarkable once it's broken.
(the entire game refusing to give you choices, too, only letting you divert briefly from an intended route and in ways that "correct" itself, is a choice from the dev team-- neither Curly nor Jimmy want to change anything about who they are and how they act, for better or worse, when you play in their respective sections, and the way the inventory descriptions are written it's clear that the game mechanics ARE part of Curly and Jimmy's thought processes.)
That people don't realize the gameplay is ALSO part of the narrative makes me immensely sad, especially when there's also SO MUCH CARE with Curly in his implementation in game. His eye *tracks you* the whole time-- if you use freecam to go to the other side of the gurney he tracks you perfectly to the new angle, you just see it very limitedly in normal play until the valve puzzle. His breathing is diegetic-- it's made to be louder the closer you get, and it changes depending on circumstances and gives you a feel for how tense or relaxed Curly is at that point in the game.
He's not implemented as a prop, but a full-on character with more attention given to him than to anyone else (he's the only one who makes ambient breathing sounds, he's the only one who has actually working eyetracking, since everyone else uses textures), and then he's reduced to a prop and task via the UI that's meant to be visualizing how Jimmy thinks.
Curly is just... PRESENT in a way that no one else in the game is. I can't understand how people think of him the same way as Jimmy when everything in the game SCREAMS at you the player to notice Curly and watch him watch Jimmy like a hawk.
people be treating curly like he’s not as human anymore because of his injuries like dude isn’t that what jimmy did
I never liked seeing characters get infantilized but especially ones that are disabled, it feels so gross to view someone with disabilities as "childish" or "childlike". I feel like its because some people see it as a way to take care of someone and it lets them fill a parental role so they see the disabled person as a child n imagine taking care of them. idk but i think its rlly gross
THANK YOU!!!! I remember talking with some other ppl abt Mouthwashing and when I was explaining how curly got all the injuries someone just goes “that’s when he turned into a burnt chicken nugget” which???? I feel like when people think of Mouthwashing they sorta forget abt the real world situations all the characters go through and just take it and make it *too* much of a joke
This is such a big issue and it's insane. A similar thing happened within Thefamousfilms's fandom. He has a fnaf minecraft rp and one of the characters became wheelchair bound. The jokes were funny at first but it quickly got out of hand. It took multiple disabled fans speaking out about it and the creators to tell people off for it to die down. It wasn't to this extreme but it's a thing I've seen a lot.
I love curly as a character. Hes my favorite, and im not trying to infantize him. My hc for him as i am a age regressor in real life is he was a regressor even before the crash. I kinda just wanted to add something of myself to him as a hc. Even after he got better he still used age regression after he got better as a coping mechanism. Even then i know its not canon, im not infantizing him nor disabled people as i am mentally disabled myself aka autistic and have adhd along with some disorders that i got from trauma.
Of course! There’s a *huge* difference between age regression and disability infantilization.
@@MerRants ty >
Gross...
5:15 to nitpick, I dont think hes always fully there since he's constantly on an opioid painkiller and ìs likely very exhausted and has a cloudy mind from the extreme pain he's in
HOWEVER, later in the game, the only thing they can give him is simple over the counter acetaminophen. which means he'll be more present. he'll sadly also probably be going through real bad withdrawal since oxcycodone is highly addictive
I can see jokes about curly being high on pain meds. but otherwise even on pain killers he can probably still think and have moments of clarity. I think during the time he's taking oxcycodone he'll be very sleepy most times and have a lot of beain fog when awake since most of the time nothing is going on and he'll just be sitting there in pain. I still think he's able to comprehend his situation and most of what goes on around him depending on how awake and alert he is at the moment
but yeah largely agree with your point in general, if it weren't for him being exhausted, in pain, and high on drugs then his mind is perfectly fine. in the later half of the game he's also probably much more aware too
I also feel like another fandom I’m in that has problems with this is the Regretevator fandom- granted that game has a MUUUUCH lighter tone than Mouthwashing and most of the fandom doesn’t do this, but there’s a character in that game who has brain damage (his name is Spud) and I’ve seen some work that depicts him in a somewhat infantilizing way. It’s really, really rare but I’m just a bit worried about what might happen if the game blew up more, since stuff like this can be a bit of a slippery slope.
Also the Wicked Fandom has this problem, since that play has a disabled character who behaves antagonistically and some people have used that as an excuse to just be ableist towards her
Im not into mouthwashing but ive seen art of curly using dog buttons and just thought it looked painful considering he has to put PRESSURE ONTO the buttons for them to actually work while he has exposed flesh.. yikes
I believe the protagonist deserves karma, but Curly's disability shouldn't be viewed as some punishment. He went through an accident, not suddenly losing his limbs and skin because he looked at someone wrong!
Preach! I hate seeing memes with Curly that dehumanize him especially since he’s my favorite ☹️
I remember someone on pinterest mentioned that someone on tiktok made a post about curly on how he's more 🍇able than Anya since he's disabled and it hurts more for him. (I hate tiktok more) 😭😭....
WHHHAAAATTT?! WHAT THE HELL? OMG THERE INSANE? Why are we comparing who's 🍇able dude?
Bro… that’s vile….
i love/hate tiktok so much 😭 some videos are actually funny and then theres... this..
I genuinely got a wave of nausea reading that
If Curly ever knew about how some of the fanbase treats him, he'd suffer even more than before knowing that he's not treated like an adult man anymore just bcs of his injuries
this issue is so bizarre to me when it comes to this fandom, because like -- the game did a really good job humanizing curly and making you see the tragedy of his mutilation by showing his original state and capabilities? like?? how can you still treat him as if he's a child or a dog when the game itself is urging you to see him as a real person undergone something horrific??
Agreed, 100%. I’m not physically disabled, but I have a developmental one, specifically being on the spectrum. And, the AMOUNT OF TIMES I’ve seen people on the spectrum be infantilized because they can’t read social cues as well, or the amount of times they’re villainized because they have low empathy, or even just siloed into the gremlin archetype because “they’re just a little guy who loves machines and not people”, it’s like… it’s what opened my eyes to the disgusting and sometimes inadvertent ways people with disabilities are treated. When I was a kid, I was never taught about this stuff, and as I got older and learned better, I just became disgusted and enraged, because A) it’s not fair and cruel. B) it’s moronic, and C) it’s othering. People with disabilities are people first, and while that doesn’t mean we should just pretend we all don’t have differences, that also doesn’t mean we treat people with disabilities like they aren’t people. If they need a bit of different treatment, that doesn’t make them babies. If they don’t react the same way as you do, that doesn’t make them alien. If they don’t communicate the same way as you do, that doesn’t make them animals.
i tried commenting like twice already but apparently youtube does not like me HOWEVER i absolutely agree with you. as somebody who struggles with a phys disability [ chronic pain from scoliosis ] it makes me so mad when people do this
if i made something and it got popular and people treated one of my disabled characters like that i would die instantly i think
Hi! I'm disabled (MS) and I personally have no problem with desabled people being the butt of a joke, but I hate hate HATE it when we get dehumanized like that. You sometimes can't even tell anymore that this character is a real person (in that universe ofc). I don't know much about Mouthwash but I know enough at this point. I don't get offended easily so I mostly just brush it off; would probably be different if I was a fan of MW. xD
another big victim of this is Viktor from Arcane. he is CANONICALLY both smart and, while physically fragile, strong. and yet i’ve seen people say “oh he gets Jayce to tie his shoes!!” like no that’s a grown man with a disability…
you might be right.....disregarding my previous comment, I ended up delving into Mouthwash on pinterest and shit got weird. I guess I only saw the surface level stuff. all of the stuff I originally saw was the typical meme things fandoms push out. I saw some truly horrifying things from this fandom in a days time.
also I kind of "infantilize" characters I like because I self project onto them, I have many traditionally "childish" interests like cartoons, beads, plushies, etc.
Tbh Curly getting punished for what he "didn't do" angers me. The fandom isn't taking this game seriously and imo are actually acting like the person they all hate fucking jimmy. Sexualization, making people less than human all shit he did to Anya. Saying jimmy should be sa or etc like that is disgusting yes he's bad but wtf yall. He should be in jail or shouldn't have been a copilot in the first place..not whatever the fuck I see people say should happen. This fandom made me leave the fandom and I was legit a fan of Wrong organ before the game was even made. Curly didn't deserve what happened. If people actually looked deeper in the game we never see shit in Curly's perspective fully. Like who knows in other parts we never see He could have actually tried to do something. He cared about everyone it's hard to see bad in people you care alot about, he wanted to fix everything. The only thing is he didn't keep everyone safe from the real danger that was right beside him. and Jimmy just was so full of himself jealous and hungry for power he didn't have leading him to not take responsibility for his actions and blame it on others that he caused issues to. If anyone has noticed Anya's Card was in the cabinet in the cockpit meaning Curly was planning on a report or thinking of it. Even if he was able to make one wtf would that do?? The company doesn't care about them and probably would have put it under the rug. Legit one poster says that if someone messes up everyone is fucked which means while he could make one the crew is still fucked by the actions of jimmy??? Not everything is black in white there's so many layers to this game that legit hurts to see people take it like Ohhh he didn't instantly do something he's bad. LIKE IF YOU WERE CAPTAIN OF A SHIP IN SPACE AND A CREW MATE SAYS SHE WAS SA BY YOUR BEST FRIEND YOU TRUSTED CARED ABOUT AND HELPED HIM NOT DO BAD SHIT. ARE YOU SUDDENLY JUST GONNA DO SOMETHING EXPESUALLY HOW JIMMY ACTED AT CURLY'S PARTY??? MEANING HE CAN GET INSTANTLY ANGRY AND DO STUFF WITHOUT THINKING. like geez people OPEN YOUR EYES!??
It's not everyone tho in this fandom I'm relieved there are some people that have respect for the game and aren't being gross. Like as a person who went somewhat through what anya was and Having disability and being child how ppl treat curly just is sick and disgusting, overall disrespectful to sa victims and ppl with disabilities.
Anyway sorry about this long rant and thank you for this video Mer ❤.
DUDE YES the whole dog thing and treating him like and i quote "no braincells" definitely made me jumpship on the fandom and just enjoy the game from afar
One aspect that makes this whole thing even less good and even weirder is the fact that the game does have a character who is younger and well meaning but not really wise or knows how to handle things and is symbolically innocence. His name is Daisuke. That's Daisuke's role in the story, being the most youthful and naive one. Swansea's arch is about his sort of father-son dynamic he has with Daisuke, and the big tragedy of that arch is Swansea argueably infantalizing the man himself by not letting him choose weather or not to have the 'mercy' he gave him. If they were going to infantalize anyone, which I please ask they don't. Daisuke makes the most sense given that being the most naive of the crew and well meaning but not exactly competent yet is sort of his whole point
As someone who has disabled siblings (neurodivergent brother + physically disabled sister) it kinda annoys the f__k outta me when stuff like this happens (ESPECIALLY when people try to infantilize those with disabilities)
It's just straight up annoying when people do that.
Edit: typo
This reminds me a bit of nagito from Danganronpa, he’s been through a lot of stuff and traumatic things due to having the “ultimate lucky student” talent, (and he has a brain disease, which is why he always has a sickly appearance. He is perfectly functioning though and it’s not like his bedridden or anything) and I’ve seen so many people baby him, LIKE STOP- he is a very smart person, and people need to stop babying him. It sucks that this happens in a lot of other fandoms too, sure you can feel bad for the character but there is no need to baby them.
people will respond to a character with "so silly and cute he's so baby omg >w
off topic but your little persona thing is so cute i love it
Thank you for bringing this up. It really pisses me off as someone with autism that everyone says papyrus is. HE’S MEANT TO BE SIMPLY STUPID, FOR COMEDIC EFFECT.
That’s a thing I’ve noticed with most fandoms nowadays, “oh that character is slightly quirky? They obviously have autism”. Like not every autistic person is some quirky goofball who can’t go five seconds without shouting about something they like.
he's not stupid, there's actually a lot of proof in the source material papyrus knows a lot more than we think, he simply puts on different personalities or acts with different people, there's a video you can probably find about this. it's actually a very interesting part of his character!
i like this point but also, I tend to hc talkative, loud, and/or "quirky" characters like Papyrus as autistic because I relate to them and Im autistic. Is that different? (/genq, I don't want to end up offending someone by implying all characters like that are autistic)
@The_Casualest_of_Chaoses yeah i agree, i understand wanting to be sensitive and thinking that fandoms seeing every "quirky" character as autistic can be offensive, but also they have to consider the fact that 99% of these people that are headcanoning these charcaters as autistic ARE AUTISTIC. it circles back to being exclusive, not allowing autistic people to view themselves in these characters because these people don't see the depth of them and only see them for their surface level "quirkiness".
@@The_Casualest_of_Chaoses no , youre not stereotyping for projecting onto characters:3
The fact this happens irl makes me disgusted. As soon as something is obviously weird or wrong about you people immediately treat you differently. And seeing how people treat a fictional character makes me horrified how they would treat a real human.
Great video!! Man, fandoms can kinda suck sometimes- unrelated, but I've been watching your videos for a little bit now, and i really like how you draw!! The face proportions are so cute and cool and i love the rendering
Thanks for talking about this!! it is very important and I 100% agree with you!! i used to be okay with this kinda thing because of how common it was but now I know its wrong, and I'm glad people keep talking about how it's bad so more people realize it's really weird for people to be treated this way!!
I cosplayed as post crash curly on Roblox. I do like to roleplay as him in different roleplay games on there. A few days ago I was roleplaying with my bestie on a fnaf rp game and people came up to me saying stuff like “can I pet him?“ or “can he talk?”. I do know that some people may not know the game but seriously??😭😭😭
I’ve also seen people sexualize him. These people are into those who need constant support to survive, unable to do anything because they cannot speak or pick things up or walk cause they don’t have their limbs anymore. It’s absolutely disgusting how people view and treat him now. All your points are also there. The dehumanization, objectification, infantilization. It genuinely makes me wanna vomit.
i'm torn on this because i have a chronic skin condition so people still finding a heavily-scarred curly attractive is reassuring. but ngl it's also a bit disheartening that works with this particular theme are rarely centred around making pleasure accessible, but about the helplessness of it all.
@ It’s nice that they find it attractive cause that means people will find you attractive. But their reasoning for being attracted to him is that he’s completely helpless and it’s easy for them to do whatever they want to him. Yeah, I can see why you’re torn.
Remember folks: fictional characters are objects.
You can treat them/talk about them however you want so long as you dont talk to/treat real people likr that.
THANK YOU about the last point. I've seen people say that Curly "deserved what he got" and that's honestly such a weird and gross way to think about it????
It seems like the fandom talks about curly more than anyone else because of what happened to him. Just him as a character makes me feel so bad and empathetic😢.
(Im physically disabled) I’ve talked to some friends who are also fans of mouthwashing and one of them, ND but not physically disabled, and they mentioned the dog button animation and how they thought it was funny. Which was. Not the most enjoyable experience. But I explained the issue with it and my discomfort and everything ended up fine. But it’s interesting to think that people who are able bodied but ND will still see this stuff and not understand how uncomfortable it is. (I’m not upset with that friend at all, they didn’t know. And we’ve hashed things out)
ate and left no crumbs. Not even a plate. Not even a table bc you ateeeeeeeeeee
within the context of the story and game, i believe that curly's disability is a way to physically lock him into the choice of being a bystander, and to let the consequences of his actions really sink in narrative-wise. the karma isnt really the disability itself, the disability is a brutal way for curly to experience the consequences of keeping certain people around him and helping them. as in the disability IS an accident and not a punishment, but this accident taking him out of the drivers seat of both his own life and the position of authority he held over those around him allowed for said people's true colors to shine as a consequence. its the same as how a person growing old and weak wouldn't be a punishment for their past sins, but the way others treat them once they're old and weak would be the consequence. curly's disability is a vehicle for the consequences he must face and the responsibility he can no longer take.
that said, i believe artist intent and reception by audiences are two correlating but separate things. ur right about how the fandom treats curly. there's too much of haha funny guy no limbs and not enough curly is still conscious and is now forced to be at the mercy of those around him. hes been reduced to just some fucked up creature, and that really sucks. its understandable to dislike it whenever disability is portrayed as punishment. its a common trope and bc its common, it implies that disabled people must have done something bad to deserve it.
Within the story-it’s really interesting to analyze how Curly’s lost his autonomy completely. And I think it’s interesting that there’s a form of humanization done by the developers while still being objectified at the same time by the unreliable narrator (Jimmy, obviously.) Because it’s very clear within the mechanics that were implemented that he’s still thinking, and that Curly’s *still there*. The use of disability in the case of Mouthwashing itself was never really the issue for me! It was tackled in a way that felt understandable, and the irony of Curly now being in a place of lack of decision to that extent was done with intent not precisely to dehumanize.
But it I find the issues itself within how the fandom interprets this (very layered) character and then strips him down to just his disability, and making it the butt of the joke. It’s a bummer because there’s so much interesting stuff to discuss within Curly’s character himself, and how disability affects him-and that feels overshadowed by the fanbase’s own portrayal of the character. And a LOT of the things that Curly’s character has faced in the fandom also applies to the way disabled people are treated in real life, since in many ways fiction affects reality. Which is why it’s so important to me that videos discussing why this is an issue within fandom spaces is made! Once people are conscious about how they’re treating disability in fiction, I hope that that consciousness then in turn bleeds into proper real-life treatment.
I have a few physically disabled ocs that I talk and roleplay as (they are warrior cats ocs btw) and one has no eyes or back legs. She speaks and acts like a normal warrior (except walking or seeing) but in role-plays, she gets babied a lot. She stays in the medicine den but speaks to others normally. Because of how she got the injuries she still has the availability to comprehend her state and others.
Anyways disabled people are still people!! And cats that act like people I guess??
Stan.
I usually draw Curly pre crash and if I do make joke/wholesome art about post crash Curly, it’s not like making him seem like a dog or toddler. Like Daisuke showing Post crash Curly a video type humor where he’s still looks fucked up but is being entertained in some way by someone, I hope that doesn’t come across bad because I ain’t trying to dehumanize or infantilize him because what happened to him was horrid
I think the fanbase should make more joke art/wholesome with Curly pre crash since it’d be funnier in my opinion to see jokes with him interacting with the crew and being the straight main that’s positive.
i definitely agree with this, i haven’t thought of it like this before but im glad you brought it up. i’m sure the creators who do the dog communication button videos with curly or smth similar to that are doing it as a joke but it can be harmful to disabled people, mainly physically disabled people.
I don’t know too much about Mouthwashing (i’ve watched a few videos or so), but I agree with how people act like character’s who are implied/canonically disabled like babies/weak. Like, I’m really anemic (not exactly a disability in of it itself - but I do have trouble doing basic actions without struggling but idrk), there’s two characters I love who are also anemic, aka Fyodor from BSD and Kanade from PJSK. I’ve always hated when I see people dumbing down Fyodor just because of his anemia (ex: saying he’s a femboy for not being extremely masculine..? among many, MANY other things) because like…dude HE’S ANEMIC??? Same with Kanade, I don’t see as many people dumbing her down, but the PJSK fandom itself is a mess when it comes to disabled characters (Like Saki Tenma). I don’t want to speak over anyone’s experiences, but I agree with the topic that fandoms seem to make characters that are disabled like adult toddlers, which always sucks. Great video, though!
The other day i saw a video of Isha from Arcane with that stupid dog button filter and it made me SO mad.
(If you don’t know who that is, Isha is a non-speaking character that appears in the second season of arcane. Why she doesn’t talk isn’t specified but it’s been theorized she’s mute or autistic or deaf.)
She is not an animal just because she’s a child and in the show she is treated with respect. She even uses her own little sign language to communicate with another character at one point. She moves the story forward in very important ways and being reduced to a goddamn dog for being disabled is SO DISRESPECTFUL. GET AWAY FROM HER. GET A JOB.
this is something that’s bothered me for a while, thanks for making a video on this
Finally some one is talking about it
Curly is one of my fav character and me me feel weird when people treat him like an animal 😞
Oh thank god someone’s finally talking about this. Most of the criticism I’ve seen of the fandom is just over shipping and other standard fandom behavior, while completely glossing over the rampant ableism :/
Curly is a ship captian and has probably gone through training for the position that he's in especially since they make it clear that he's been the captian of his crew for several trips.
Curly couldn't even use those dog buttons because HE HAS NO HANDS!! Not to mention how PAINFUL it would be for him to hit the buttons! And that's not even me going into how having him use dog buttons makes him less of a human character and so on. BUT Curly as the captian of a crew should know Morse code either by tapping or the lights being flipped on and off or hell the line and dot stuff should work to! I'm sure someone on the ship also knows Morse code to translate like maybe Jumbo since he is a Co pilot it only makes since for him to know some of it to (though I wouldn't trust him with anything Curly related).
HELL SWANSEA SHOULD KNOW MORSE CODE!!
My friend let me rant and so i thought i should put my rant here Curly is MY FAVORITE character and i will defend him to my grave against this fandom! Curly needs medical help not to be treated like a DOG or for what happened to be a punishment! And dont even mention how he 'didnt help anya' i will rant about how neither him or j*mmy where in the right and neither is the fandom for laughing at the tragic story of these characters.
reminds me a lot of how people treat tavros nitram 💔
even hussie treats tavros horrendously in comic- it's really hard to reread anything when he and vriska are on screen because it's just. revolting
@@dukiesvvh the overuse and negative use of the word cripple and treating him like he’s some useless lump instead of a troll rubs me the wrong way (saying this as a huge Tavros fan)
@@SneezeCake REAL i didnt even like tavros at first (love him now tbh) but the way he was treated by the narrative AND other characters?? ableism is like genuinely one of homestuck's main themes and it's despicable.
@@dukiesvvh 100% REAL! I’m honestly considering making a video in defense of Tavros new why I like him so I can prove he’s actually a great and competent character
@@SneezeCake that's a good idea! ive considered making one myself about how prevelant both the ableism and sexism are throughout homestuck, i think it's genuinely such an interesting deep dive id love to watch yours when it comes out! :)
I think it's much telling of Curly's character that in the AU where Jargon is the amputee, despite Anya wanting to harm him, Curly decides to hold her back, and make sure that despite everything Jar Jar Binks did, he still gave him the dignity of a fair trial, and treated him the most humanely of them all, despite knowing full well that Jollibes is an absolute monster.
I just realised who you were talking about
I hate the mouthwashing fandom sm. First the shipping and now this??? 💀💀💀💀
I only dislike the shipping and infantilization/dehumanization 😭
This is why we can’t have nice things, recently got into ,outhwashing, the fandom is so-so if you look in the right place
my classmates think because im autistic im unable to do anything-
i love the fact you keep calling him "captian curly" to reinforce your point that he deserves respect. idk its nice and refreshing
Honestly, until this comment I hadn’t realized I’d called him Captain Curly the whole time! It was an absentminded choice-but I’m glad it made an impact!!
@@MerRants im sure he'd appreciate it more than the dog buttons jlgkdlkjsf
People treat curly it remind me of how people treat ortho which is also disabled character, but they lost their body as well
Great points, but i dont really get the part about dog buttons? Dog buttons have been used for disabled people longer than for dogs, so i don't really see it as comparing Curly to a dog.
@@pillblug It was the *most* common example of Curly being treated as a dog-but as a whole there’s a lot of ‘memes’ or jokes where Curly is placed in the dog category in. It’s not inherently an issue as a standalone thing: but it’s a repeated joke thematically it cements a lot of negative stereotyping.
Again-not a huge issue with dog buttons as a concept or to be used in a joking manner!! But there’s a reason that we’ve technologically moved past using Dog Buttons for disabled people, y’know?
@ Ah, that makes more sense, ty!
I really dont think its as deep, though you make good points and i like this breakthrough. The big thing to note here is that these are fictional characters and people LOVE coddling fictional characters. You will have the most horrible, vile, cruel, sadistic characters in media and people will put mf in a maid dress.
As for disability not being a punishment; it itself isnt directly a punishments, its when it happens with the intention of causing harm.
Overall, good video!
also i understand saying "hes my baby" as a joke but dude some people reallyyyy overstep it (why are you making the character a coquette baby in a stroller with a pink binky)
So this is a bit of an old and maybe even bad example, but I’m going to talk about the DHMIS (Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared) fandom for a moment, specifically one of the 3 main characters Yellow Guy (or Doi/Manny as the fandom calls him)
Throughout the series, Manny/Doi acts kinda childish, giving the idea that he’s a child, yet he’s seen dealing with powerful emotions like an adult, leading to people making headcannons that he might be neurodivergent
Now, there is no problem with this headcannon at face value, in fact I think it works very well, my problem is the infantilization he faces from the fandom, perhaps as a result of this. As far as anyone knows, Doi/Manny could be in his 20s, but the fandom treats him like he’s an unknowing, innocent toddler, and not a deeply traumatized, possibly even age regressed man trying his best to understand the crazy world around him.
This isn’t a problem I’ve dealt with before the DHMIS fandom, and it’s almost sad to see that others fandoms still infantilize disabled characters like Curly and Manny.
Again, this could be a bad example, but I just felt like adding this here because it was the first thing that came to my mind after watching this entire video
That’ll be all for now, have a great rest of your week everyone.
I genuinely just feel bad for the guy and wanna' see him heal - it's too easy unfortunately for stuff like this to forget that he's not only a grown ass man, but not a baby or completely innept. Like yeah, physically, he's limited now, but damn he's just trying to cope with the pain - if anyone wanted to do anything beneficial for him, i think the best thing would to be to get his ass to a hospital and y'know... Away from jiminy crappit
Not related to Mouthwashing but ive seen some people in the Dandys World fanbase treat Flutter (mute + no arms) in a similar way to Pebble, a dog. (Despite them being a butterfly, not a real butterfly but close to one, the game itself makes it clear they arent an animal and act similar to the other non-animal characters.)
Usually in the way of either:
A. Acting weird and saying you cant put them in romantic pairings or ships
Or even worse,
B. Shipping Flutter with pebble. The dog.
I dont know just how bad it is due to being neutral on Flutter (and most other characters) as a whole, but i dont want to see anymore if its more of that.
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS. as someone who ships gigi x flutter its so aggravating having people constantly judge me for shipping it bc "flutters an animal". flutter functions like all the other toons, shes just disabled 😭 and the way nobody would be saying stuff like this if she wasnt mute too.
I agree, Flutter has a diary. She had opinions, friends, thoughts. Seeing people dumb her down like that is sad :(
people also have this tendency to treat him like The Monster when...no? He's a disabled person and you always see him as a disabled person in the segments where you are in your right mind post-crash. His injuries are disturbing to look at and the constantly staring wide open eye does come off as threatening (which it should considering what he knows about jimmy and actively suffers from his abuse) but he's still just a man. Jimmy's hallucinations regarding Curly are mostly about feeling watched and judged (as he should) and how he sees taking care of him as a disgusting and cumbersome chore (awful but makes sense because jimmy is a bad person). Even with JIMMY it's never about his appearance, and the only disability related part is jimmy being mad he has to do something for someone except himself (he doesn't even. anya offers to do it in the end every time.) some people haven't gotten past the childhood stage of being annoying and weird about visibly disabled people and it's very obvious
I honestly had no idea this was happening (which is impressive because I watch A LOT of mouthwashing content) it could be because I watch a lot of the j*mmy suffering ones, the angst ones, and just the ones of mah baybees (not infantilizing, I call everyone this) Swansee Anya and whitsuke- I mean Daisuke 😋 I personally don’t see a lot of curly animations that aren’t just sad or him dancing with the rest of the crew, it kinda sucks that this is happening:((
7:18 it really does feel like a punishment sometimes. this has nothing to do with anything i just felt quirky. i hate having dystonia
I love Curly so much, I love him aftercrash and precrash I seriously fw him heavily ,,and it is odd to me when people treat him like a cute silly dog, I do think he's cute don't take me wrong but it takes away from his character
yet again, I somehow seem to avoid the problematic parts of the fandom I'm in. All I usually stumble upon are eighter lighthearted memes, or great art
Honestly most "FaNdOm BaD!!!" Stuff you see is grossly exaggerated because people love to hate.
Definitely depends on the context for me.
Mouthwashing is a horror game and expecting fan-content to be black and white in morality is frankly naive in my eyes.
I've read/seen horror media created by disabled people where the dehumanization/infantilization of disabled people is the point of said media, it's a horror piece, it's horrifying, that and I don't think more humorous content is that bad either if the intent is the horror involved with that contrast.
I prefer judging creators on how they treat real disabled people over a fictional one, the "perfect victim"-ification of both Curly and Anya has just been insufferable and ironically demonizes real people who aren't traumatized or whatever the "right" way.
It’s kinda weird how people call curly a silly lil goober, or dehumanize him, I mean, dude just went through A LOT 😔 something like this doesnt make you more nor less human.
fandoms are very not normal about complex disabled characters who aren't perfect angels ngl, there's a famous post by an arcane fan on twitter saying that viktor is the proof that the undercity is dangerous
people who are too gleeful at playing up the disabled villain tropes (bond villains or, hell, even extremely bad faith interpretation of curly) are also weird since irl disabled people are likelier to be victims
that's it, i'm gatekeeping viktor
Id like to add, while disability is not a punishment, i also dont think thats what people mean; in the end, his inaction is what caused the crash, his injuries, and in the end, the deaths of 5 (though one worthless) people including him. I think in game itself, whether or not I think this is ever applicable to the real world, his injuries are depicted more as a conequence than a punishment and to also show somewhat as a reflection of the lack of autonomy anya was dealt by Jimmy, and showing how Jimmy only cares when Curly loses it as opposed to her; I think infantalizing Curly is disrespectful and ableist at worst, and at best very dismissive of him and his character, i think just dismissing him as evil is, well, dismissive, but I also think calling him a good or even neutral person is giving way more credit than he deserves.
I love Curly, he is the best, he deserves better
one time I was playing mouthwashing rp as shriveled up salami curly but then an exploiter Jimmy made a rope tool and grabbed me with I and said walk like a dog... It was weird
I think people can call Curly a “cute little guy” as long as they’re like…aware that he’s disabled. I think he’s cute/hot before and after the crash but I’m not gonna like actually baby him if he was real. Hell, I don’t think he’d survive if he was real. I’m not gonna baby actual real disabled people like I do with fictional characters. I’m not babying my disabled grandpa like I do Curly.
I love your artstyle sm it reminds me of aliens
I cant see any type of excuse for why people treat Curly as an animal or child other than the fact hes an amputee. A character that visually looks similar to curly is Joshua Graham as he is a burn victim BUT he is abled. I see people in comment sections treating Joshua Graham as a cool person because he IS but then the same people see Curly and think hes a person who thinks like an actual child
If Curly wasn't disabled he would NOT be treated like this IN MY OPINION!!
the “dog buttons” were made to help disabled people, but I see why it’s uncomfortable and de humanizing with the “talking dogs” thing being well known
edit: to be fair tho, I haven’t seen art like that
SAY IT LIKE IT IS. HELL YEAH
yes finally someone said this!! also i love your video style and artstyle! :3
i'm physically disabled but not a burn victim so take this with a grain of salt . but smth i also see within the fandom and perhaps the game itself is how curly's disability is seen as like.. body horror . i'm not saying that can't be done well, but idk i don't think disabled bodies r inherently creepy or scary?? burn victims and others who r considered "deformed" already face discrimination for how they look yk . again this is just my opinion and how i perceive the game/fandom so uhh. Yeah
For sure!! A lot of media demonizes and stigmatizes disabled people with disfigured faces-and honestly it’s an issue that isn’t talked about enough.
fr !!! I got a burned/deformed foot and i hate how burns are always used on evil characters and as something thats 'scary'... not very helpful of the self image. also i have the option to hide it by just wearing normal shoes so i dont even have the brunt of the stigma, ((besides the avg stigma of disability)) so if someone couldnt, like a burn on the face, the stigma would really impact them socially.
also the whole "scarred on the outside is a metaphor for scarred on the inside" is stupid as shit imo.
I mean, it could be used as personal body horror. I'm not in the fandom, so I don't know how it's being done, but personal body horror/not recognizing yourself/ self disgust is a really interesting way to explore characters and give them later growth and acceptance. so if they're not doing it that way then they should be
i definitely think it's scary in that it's a scary scenario to be in, it's obviously gonna be really painful for him but also not being able to move or speak or really do anything about it is even scarier, but i definitely get how him just "looking creepy" or whatever is a weird place to get the horror from. it's a psychological horror game but i honestly didn't know that when i first saw the game because of how much focus people put onto how curly looks, i thought there was going to be a large focus on body horror, and really it's just kind of weird.
I think it’s because he literally looks like a corpse. Of course that’s harsh said but literally, he has no skin whatsoever, missing limbs and is (if I’m seeing it right) really bloody. Big wounds, missing limps, intense burns and loss of things like skin and organs etc ARE considered body horror. Curlys character is meant to look scary and disturbing (can’t remember the exact reasoning but it’s smth to do with the crash and how he sees jimmy) and people are allowed to find it scary and disturbing too. I don’t think people are fond of looking at a human who is deformed to their flesh and bones and is practically a corpse barely surviving.
So i was in the much "darker"/??/ serious? (mostly animatic/animation,) side of the fandom, i dont mess with fic tumbler space for this fandom, and i had no idea this infantilization of Curly was going on to this degree.