Man, there are some heavy holders on that line. Amazing to see the shooters that this country has out on the block. This is what a free society produces. Isn't this country great. Outstanding shooting gents.
Heavy holders? Who would jack around with "hold" with such a steady and not at all "high" wind blowing across the range and with the "home field advantage" and all? The larger and "lighter" a "wind flag" is the more like real "wind" a steady "breeze" looks. Most people have no clue what "real" wind is and damned sure don't shoot out in "desert" conditions in it since you end up with dust and debris blowing everywhere and mainly can't keep it out of your eyes even with shooting glasses on. And the winds that "kill" are GUSTS that often won't even "move" a wind flag any more than a steady "breeze" is besides momentarily "whipping" it since as WIND SPEEDS INCREASE the "AIR PRESSURE" WITHIN THE WIND "DECREASES" AND ANYTHING THAT CAN BE "BLOWN" BY THE WIND IS PROPORTIONATELY LESS AFFECTED BY IT. A "GUST" CAN CAUSE A FLAG TO "DROP" BECAUSE SUDDENLY THE "ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE" AND STEADY FRICTION OF A "BREEZE" IS GONE. And those light, tapered flags don't do SHIT as far as indicating "wind speed". They're super lightweight synthetic nylon cloth that would be shredded in only hours of real strong continuous "wind". Not to mention that people think of wind in "miles per hour" and fail to "get" that you're dealing with "feet per second" shooting. A 15 MPH WIND IS BLOWING 22 FEET PER SECOND. DAMNED NEAR ANY REASONABLY "FIT" AND COORDINATED HUMAN BEING CAN RUN 15 MPH FOR AT LEAST A SHORT DISTANCE AND WITH A BULLET IN FLIGHT FOR AT MOST 1-2 SECONDS, EVEN A STEAD 15 MPH WIND CAN ONLY "THEORETICALLY" BLOW A BULLET "SIDEWAYS" 11-22 FEET. BUT OF COURSE A BULLET ISN'T "STATIC" IN THE WIND AND IF IT WERE "BLOWN" SIGNIFICANTLY BY THE WIND ITS WIDER "TAIL" WOULD BE MORE AFFECTED BY ITS NARROWER "NOSE" AND IT WOULD TEND TO "SWAP ENDS" SINCE "SPIN STABILIZATION" JUST MEANS ITS IN A PERFECT POSITION TO BE "IMPACTED" BY THE WIND. AND "HORIZONTAL" WIND HAS THE LEAST "EFFECT" ON MOVING OBJECTS DEALING WITH "WIND RESISTANCE". ANYBODY WHO HAS DRIVEN A PICKUP AND LARGE LIVESTOCK OR CAMPER OR ENCLOSED TRAILER OR A SEMI TRUCK AND TRAILER OR ANY OTHER LARGE VEHICLE WITH LOTS OF SURFACE AREA AND "CROSS SECTION" KNOWS THAT THE WORST WIND TO DEAL WITH AND THAT HAS THE MOST "EFFECT" ON A MOVING OBJECT ISN'T A "HEADWIND" OR "SIDE WIND" BUT A "QUARTERING" WIND COMING FROM ABOUT THE 10 O'CLOCK OR 2 O'CLOCK POSITION AND CATCHING AS MUCH SURFACE AREA AS POSSIBLE. It won't tend to "blow over" a vehicle like that by "tipping" it but it requires way more power and fuel to "buck" and when a gust "hits" it will physically slow down the vehicle right now. The same gust hitting from the side just tends to "rock" the vehicle. I've drive semis pulling grain trailers in "real" wind blowing 30-40 mph straight across a road and with an empty grain trailer I could see "daylight" under my "upwind" trailer tires nearly all the time but because the trailer was being "tipped" instead of "pushed sideways" and wasn't tending to pull the rear end of the tractor over I never "felt" the wind at all. Turning a corner and having that same wind "quarter" against the tractor for even a few seconds I could feel it buffet the truck. And since the higher the speed of a gas the lower its pressure, a 10 mph wind may blow twice as fast as a 5 mph wind but the pressure of the "gas" we call "air" is "halved". That's why a "full value" wind is a "full value" wind regardless of wind speed and why beyond "full value" no additional "wind correction" is necessary. A "full value" wind is one that will have "maximum effect" on a given projectile in flight and beyond that because the pressure drops and the force of the wind on the projectile drops as well, the bullet isn't going to be "blown sideways" any more as wind increases. And you don't have to worry about "gusts". A "half-value" wind is one that can can and will go from "half strength" to "zero effect" and "full effect" IF it gets "gusty" but since "gusts" are the result of wind - which is moving air moving from "high pressure" to "low pressure" or "high elevation" to "low elevation" or "high temp" to "low temp" or "high humidity to "low humidity" and - striking and having to "go around" obstacles, shooting in what is basically a "dry lakebed" with NO obstacles and where the wind is just blowing from a "high" of some kind to a "low" means the wind will be just what it is in the video. Steady and completely "predictable" and the only thing its ever going to do is go DOWN since "high winds" and "increasing winds" are the result of a "low" or "high" growing and "stormy" weather prior to the two air masses "meeting". Deserts don't have "storms" and that wind is almost certainly a daily local weather phenomena just like on a sea coast during part of every day winds blow "out to sea" and part of every day winds blow "inland". My guess is that roughly 12 hours after whatever time of day that wind starts blowing left to right it "reverses" and blows right to left. Regardless its not even "strong" or "gusty" or "high" enough to "stir up" any dust and doesn't even affect the "mirage" much. Its also worth mentioning that they're probably only shooting 600 yards and with that much "mirage" and with that much "elevation" at their firing line and being able to shoot that "flat", their bullets probably never get high enough above the ground for the same wind that's blowing that "wind flag" to touch their bullets and if so its for small fractions of second and may even "help" their shooting if the "low pressure" up there happens to coincide with a bullet "nosing over" in its trajectory which is why many "low drag" bullets that are way too long for caliber and inherently "unstable" actually "de-stabilize". Lower pressure means lower drag and improved "BC" without having to increase velocity or weight and SD to do it. If this were NRA "high-powered rifle" competition at 1000 yards the way it was and still is "meant" to be and the way it is where serious skill and "wind reading" ability are required as well as "young man's" vision combined with LOTS of "trigger time" and "experience" and "wisdom" and the knowledge that you're NOT "competing" to "win" but simply to "finish" and "improve" and in conditions most "shooters" wouldn't even leave the house in, they'd be shooting 1000 yards with "iron sights" and "scoring" would be via "disking" the target with a white disk on a tall pole held at or waved over certain parts of the target and in certain directions to "communicate" their last shot impact to them and with no "wind coach" or "spotter" and they'd be shooting "service rifles" in a TRUE "prone" position with no bipods or rests or other crutches to make "shooters" think they're "marksmen". They're shooting 20X or larger "optics" so those 600-yard targets that are 10 MOA top to bottom and side to side with a black "scoring" section "bullseye" a good 5-6 MOA across and a "10-ring" probably 1.5 MOA across "look like" they're 30 yards away and essentially the "black circle" is "filling" their "optic". And given how they and their targets are "spaced" and how the guys pulling targets and "scoring" or rather "marking" their hits are only "pulling" AFTER a "hit" and should have no clue whatsoever who is shooting and when unless someone back at the firing line is "cueing" them, it's certainly interesting that anyone would think they're really "shooting" and would just automatically believe that because they're seeing "pasters" go up on targets there are "hits" beneath them. There aren't too many "clubs" with "private ranges" that are actually PUBLIC RANGES the "club" pretends/claims/misleads people to think is "private" that are remotely interested in losing their little "playgrounds" and most of them are playing by "CMP rules" instead of "NRA rules" despite the NRA being the older and "federal" organization for "rifle marksmanship" and "training" and "practice" and "improving" skills and abilities shooting "offhand" the way a "soldier" or member of a "militia" is very likely to do if called upon to "defend" his or her country or home as a CITIZEN while the CMP is a "civilian" marksmanship program that exists only to "distribute" military-surplus and "obsolete" guns and other surplus "shooting team" and "shooting sports" equipment from the "national teams" and other organizations to "members" of "CMP-affiliated clubs" and essentially makes HUGE amounts of money and "profit" from "donated" and "worthless" surplus (no longer needed, wanted or of "value") equipment and NOT to just "citizens" but any "civilian" who joins the right "club". That INCLUDES "foreigners" from countries here as "visitors" or "permanent residents" who otherwise wouldn't/couldn't purchase and possess "firearms" and who come from countries that supposedly have "bans" on "military weapons" and even "firearms" chambered for "military cartridges". All the "lets keep making new "classes" and "events" so everybody has a "niche" and something they can "succeed" in and lets "shitcan" the NRA and pretend like the NRA DOESN'T "fund" our "private ranges" we occasionally and for brief periods during times when 99% of "civilians" who work for a living and/or are in school can't go "shooting" open to the "public" so we can have them all to ourselves on "weekends" for our "every weekend" so-called "matches" and "competitions" and lets benefit from an NRA we detest in a country we don't consider ourselves "citizens" of until a "gun grab scare" is over along with another "war" and ammo and guns and more "surplus" shit we can sell or keep as we please is "ours" to hoard again" is coming to an end whether the "old-timers" in the CMP with all the "power" like it or realize it or not and the CMP essentially "applauding" Obama's "ban" on "importation" and CMP "sales" of 1911 pistols only proved just which "national marksmanship organization" is here for CITIZENS and which is here for "civilians" and just which would rather let FOREIGNERS on public ranges in the U.S. than U.S. CITIZENS WHO OWN THEM.
nice to see a couple of RPA's in action over there..one lovely piece of english precision equipment..im an Ausie and if youve guessed yes i use one too shooting palma. some nice shooting there guys..those flags showing left wind,,right wind,,no wind and mirage doin its thing make it fun eh??
Those are huge targets. I shoot at 24X24" 12X12" and 590ml bottles at 800-1000m depending on the wind. I am not a competition shooter so i don't have to make nice groups for score though.
Lots of sore necks on a range with no backstop! I usually rest my hand against the target carrier and can often feel an impact so I don't need to be looking up for 20 or 30 min at a time!
At 7:09 is a very unsafe condition. This shooter is approximately 3 feet behind the firing line! His muzzle blast has to be very disturbing to the shooter on his left. Why was this shooter allowed to place his rifle so far behind the firing line!? In my day, this shooter would have been instructed to move up to the firing line or find another sport to participate in. Also, it appears that shots that are in the X ring are being scored as 10's. This is apparent at 8:55. That shot on target #7 is definitely an X! And at 9:21 that is an X on target 7. I would have been challenging those shots as the target puller obviously is not scoring correctly!
I was curious. For shooting like that have guys ever used those ammo can cameras to see where their rounds hit, for adjustments? Or do you always need to use a spotter? I've never shot competition so was just curious. I dont know your rules or anything just figured by the commercials I see online they'd allow you a perfect clear view of your targets up close from the firing line.
Curt Warkentin that was my first and last time shooting F-class as it’s a bit too far of a drive but I have a Target Vision 2 mile camera so we could use that but the way they mark it, it really doesn’t matter, a spotting scope works fine.
@@jamessammann9183 The jacket is there to reduce the effect of your heart beat on the aim as well as providing more structure to the position, otherwise people tire when in the aim for 20+ mins during matches
Doesn't look like "vapor trail" atmospheric and light and range conditions to me. And winds at the target pits don't matter much regardless. The wind at the firing line that the shooter can actually feel and that are going to try to shift the shooter and rifle to the side are way more relevant to a good "wind call" than what's happening at the targets. The only time "changing wind conditions" like actual directional changes and shifts from "gusts" to "steady" or much stronger gusts are going to have major "long-term" effects on your shooting is if you spend major amounts of time try to "call the wind" and are too busy trying to "call" winds downrange and wait for the next "lull" instead of realizing if the wind is "calm" or as "calm" as its been at the firing line you're IN the "lull" and need to get a freaking bullet downrange. A 15 mph wind moves at 22 feet per second. A bullet that's in the air less than 2 seconds can't possibly be "shifted" more than 11 feet horizontally during its flight and clearly a bullet that is spinning "away" from the wind at tens of thousands of RPM and is leaving a "vapor trail" is AFFECTING THE AIR ITS TRAVELING THROUGH FAR MORE THAN THE AIR ITS TRAVELING THROUGH IS AFFECTING IT. And that's at 1000 yards. At 600 yards the flight time is well under 1 second and the maximum distance a bullet could possibly be shifted sideways during its flight is approximately the width of a "target". Jacking around trying to "call wind" instead of making sure your rifle is "sighted in" properly and "zeroed" as perfectly as possible windage-wise and shooting during "lulls" and then remembering the "feel" of the wind for your "best" shot so far in a string is how you deal with the wind. Shoot quickly and confidently and realize that you're not there to win a wind-calling contest. You're there to improve your SHOOTING SKILLS and there is no "competition" with anybody else there just like you're not playing other golfers on the golf course. Its about personal improvement and the more you rely on "experts" to do things like "call the wind" for you the less you "own" whatever success you have, the less satisfying any improvement or "win" will be and the more quickly you'll resent and dislike having "experts" tell you how and when to shoot every time their "call" prevents you from making your own call and owning your own performance "win or lose" and especially if you find yourself "regressing" instead of "progressing" over time the more experience and trigger time and "instruction" you get. Anybody who is there "calling wind" isn't shooting and isn't pulling targets and obviously isn't there to show what they can do with a rifle for some reason and will never, ever be an "expert" on you, your rifle, how you shoot and isn't going to "lose" with you but damned sure will "win" with you and let everybody know how "important" they were to your success even if you're smart enough to ignore them and do your own thing. Of course to be able to "call the wind" downrange using those "target pit end flags" you'd have to do something CRAZY like DIAL BACK YOUR SCOPE to the point you're NOT able to "spot" your own shots anyway and that's ANOTHER key to "calling the wind" or rather being as unaffected by it as possible. If you're trying to "chase zero" and "fix" the last shot with a "correction" and you have enough scope "power" to see the numbers and the rings on the target, you're going to miss the forest for the trees and you'll find that its way HARDER to see how the wind affects YOU at the firing line because the higher the "power" the "smaller" any movement is relative to the TARGET and especially if you have a SFP scope because the higher the power with an SFP scope the "larger" the target gets relative to the reticle as magnification is increased by because the target appears "closer" and you're seeing a smaller portion of it, your reticle will actually look larger relative to the target. Sure the reticle staying the same size means it "covers" more of the target at longer distances and lower powers but at high power as the target "grows" in the scope, the reticle itself which is always "full size" in the objective ends up "covering" more and more of the target "side to side" and "top to bottom" as your field of view shrinks. Then you end up with a closer view, more references like visible marks and numbers on the target and the "hashmarks" on your reticle and because the target looks so "big" and you can aim so "small", its very easy to lose sight of the "big picture" and very easy to let how obvious and "wobble" or "wiggle" or "flinch" or "jerk" is because of how "far" it moves the reticle on the target and how suddenly a "bullseye" can disappear let you obsess over those "shifts" and think about them combined with "wind" and the next thing you know you've got a death grip on the rifle trying your damndest to "hold steady" and that much more time to "tense up" and get "tunnel vision" and either "jump" and jerk a horrible shot when your "wind coach" finally tells you to "send it" that any "correction" you may have made is wiped out or mutiplied OR you've been so focused on "hold" and trying to be "steady" to keep your crosshairs from moving at all on the target that's STILL hundreds or a thousand yards away (more likely "just" hundreds since most "volunteer" wind coaches "disappear" come 1000-yard or even 600-yard time and it takes a "target" scope to have too much "power" at 1000 yards) that you realize you never made a wind "correction" at all but STILL "jerked" or "flinched" so that even if you somehow make a good shot you won't know "why" or "how" and you'll damned sure do your damndest NOT to "do that again". Even IF tuning out the "wind coach" and suddenly just "jerking off a shot" without a "correction" is EXACTLY WHY YOU MADE THAT "GOOD" SHOT. The bottom line is an SFP scope and having "too much power" can easily "hurt" more than they "help" regardless of what "experts" say. Dialing back until its "easy" to keep the crosshairs "on target" because you can't see "exactly" how far every little "wiggle" or "jiggle" moves them across the target "face" and paying attention only to the wind where you can FEEL it which is the ONLY wind that can affect YOU and making sure that when necessary you can "dial back" from "tunnel vision" are HUGE "advantages" and ones that only YOU have to know you have. There's a REASON plenty of "optics" come in both FFP and SFP and outwardly are "identical" so only the "shooter" knows. That's because when the few companies that "pioneered" FFP optics for "sport shooting" did so they realized that the "competition" would immediately jump on any "difference" and any claimed "advantage" and call it a "disadvantage" simply because they were caught completely unprepared and as usual and as is typical of "optic" companies that at most have been around a few decades instead of all of the current and a big chunk of the last CENTURIES and that haven't pioneered jack shit besides how to turn "military contracts" into "high-end optics" and "premium quality" and "stupidly high prices" despite being the "low bidder" for those "military contracts" ONCE SOMETHING NEW THEY COULDN'T IMMEDIATELY "COPY" AND HAVE THEIR "OVERSEAS" FACTORIES CRANK OUT SUPER FAST AND EASY OR "IMPROVE" LIKE A BIGGER OBJECTIVE OR LARGER TUBE OR SOME NEW "TACTICAL" RETICLE AND THEN JUST USE AS A "JUSTIFICATION" TO TACK ANOTHER SEVERAL HUNDRED BUCKS ON THEIR MSRP AND "STREET PRICE". And that's EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH "FFP" OPTICS WHEN NIGHTFORCE AND SCHMIDT & BENDER AND U.S. OPTICS AND THE OTHER "TACTICAL" AND SUPPOSEDLY "SUPERIOR" OPTICS MANUFACTURERS WERE SUDDENLY LEFT STANDING THEIR "FFP-LESS" AND "CLUELESS" ON HOW AN FFP OPTIC EVEN "WORKS" AND WHAT ACTUALLY "HAPPENS" WHEN MAGNIFICATION IS CHANGED BECAUSE THE FEW MANUFACTURERS WHO "PIONEERED" THE FFP OPTIC LIKE ALWAYS DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY SHIP OUT THE FIRST SEVERAL HUNDRED OR THOUSAND OF THEM TO "REVIEWERS" OR "FIREARMS JOURNALISTS" OR "EXPERTS" AND DIDN'T EVEN INTRODUCE BRAND-NEW FFP-ONLY OPTICS BUT INSTEAD JUST ADDED THE OPTION TO EXISTING PRODUCT LINES AND MADE SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WERE "BELIEVERS" IN THE COMPANIES FIRST AND THEIR PRODUCTS SECOND AND THEIR HISTORY AND REPUTATIONS FOR MAKING QUALITY "SPORT OPTICS" OF ALL KINDS FOR DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES BEFORE THERE WAS A NIGHTFORCE OR S&B OR U.S.O. AND WHO PUT SOME "SKIN IN THE GAME" GOT THEM FIRST. THAT THE "EXPERTS" WERE SENT OUT BY THE FFP-LESS OPTICS MANUFACTURERS WITH BULLSHIT "EXPLANATIONS" AND "DESCRIPTIONS" AND TALKING POINTS LISTS OF "CONS" AND BASICALLY HAD NO "PROS" WHATSOEVER DESPITE HAVING FAITHFULLY SHILLED AND PROMOTED EVERY LITTLE "ADVANCE" FROM THEIR "FAVORITE" OPTICS COMPANY FOR YEARS EVEN IF IT WASN'T AN "IMPROVEMENT" AT ALL AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS OBVIOUSLY THAT "FFP" WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY A REAL "IMPROVEMENT" OR AT LEAST "ADVANCE". THE SAME CLOWNS WHO FELLATE NIGHTFORCE ONLINE EVERY CHANCE THEY GET AND THINK A "NEW" FEATURE LIKE A NEW "VERSION" OF SOME IDIOTIC "TACTICAL" RETICLE THAT DIDN'T "SELL" IN THE PREVIOUS "VERSION(S)" IS AN EARTH-SHATTERING EVENT WOULDN'T EVEN MENTION "CONSISTENT" RANGING ACROSS ALL "POWERS" EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE WANNABE "SNIPERS". AND THEY LIED ANYWAY. FFP scopes have the reticle "full size" at maximum power and it "fills the scope" and contrary to endless bullshit "information" and "explanations" from online "experts", since that is the case and its the size of the reticle that changes in your "field of view" and it gets smaller and takes up less of the "image" and actually "shrinks" as power is reduced, its impossible to "dial back" in power and have the target "shrink" relative to the reticle. The target and reticle stay the "same size" relative to each other only you get to increase your field of view and both the target and reticle are less "in your face" while "ranging" is unaffected.
Off topic: Do you have any experience or know of anyone who has experience with a CheyTac .408 m200? The round sounds great. But, the chassis seems to be too light. Have you heard if the recoil is beyond reasonable?
taiming71 Agreed. That's a cartridge and rifle that was specifically designed specifically for the absolute extreme outer limits of a rifle with no limitations to budget. Using it for what we do would be like using a bulldozer to pull weeds in your flower garden.
"How many more do I have?" Well, if you take your empties and put them back in your little ammo box in rows separate from your loaded ammo you'll know by how many rounds you've fired how many you have "left". Unless he's asking how many "sighters" he has left or something and has no idea where his bullets have actually gone.
If you mean the one's shown in the video then they are primary sold by creedmoor sports or champions choice. They are standard practice for those shooting these types of matches because you can lower the optic right down to the ground for use when you're shooting prone and need to roll on your side to spot your own shots.
I would have a little trouble shooting at that range with the buildings to the left of the targets. Doesn't look particularly safe or smart. The buildings may be "empty" but "emtpy" has a bad habit of becoming "occupied" at the worst time.
It's a military base or former military base and theres no way to get to building without driving right thru the range. Plus these guys are putting nearly every shot in the 9 or 10 ring.
Abandoned Air Force Base. Closed in about 1978 or thereabouts and very few of the buildings are used for anything. Most were torn down a long time ago. If you've ever been to Wendover, Utah, you'd understand why there is no danger here.
Great video! Never knew this went on there and I am from Wendover. Have a question on the loads that the shooters are using in the competition. What is the brand of bullet, grain, and powder load for the 308 at 800 yards if you have that info?
I don't but I can try and find out for you. For Palma it's a requirement to shoot either 223 or .308. In the .308 it's 155 gr only which makes it all the more challenging. It's not meant to be ideal, it's meant to be a challenge. The ultimate test of skill and wind reading and shooting unsupported from a sling and open sights. I would guess they are using Varget for powder but it could be anything. Sorry I'm not more help.
Long Range Shooters of Utah 17:00 don't get a Palmer get a Bleiker or a Grunig & Elmiger way better. Seriously with bipod and scopes are way too easy pp can do that with iron sights and slings.
The ammo is supposed to be loaded to "service rifle" specs and 155-grain bullets in .308-caliber are few and far between compared to other bullet weights in that huge "family" and weight range. Powders are also fairly limited and "Palma" .308 Winchester cases with small primer pockets severely limit powder selection to 10 or 12 powders that are "medium fast" if anything and max velocities are about 2600 for "commercial" service rifle ammunition and load data consistent with the ammunition being "friendly" to the M14/M1A rifle the "class" was ORIGINALLY created for. Good old IMR 4064 is about the "best" powder in terms of fully filling a case properly loaded to the specified COL without "compressing" any powder which only causes unpredictable and inconsistent firing and pressures and velocities and makes for a very temperature-sensitive "load" regardless of rifle, cartridge and bullet weight. The small rifle primers which seem to be mainly a "European" thing like other European "modifications" of American "SAAMI" cartridge specifications serve to make it much harder to "cheat" by slipping in large rifle Magnum primers and the only "military" primers that would be consistent with "safety" and avoiding "slam-fires" would be CCI #450s which have a very "hard" cup but are "military" primers for 5.56x45 NATO ammo designed to be extremely hard to "pierce" and very hard to "slam-fire" whether the rifle is malfunctioning or is "dropped" and which are "magnum" primers to make sure 5.56x45 reliably functions at very cold temps while not causing excessive pressure at high temps or in an "overcharge" situation or "flashover" if a mass-produced military round is somehow "undercharged". There are plenty of "safety" rules the NRA has whether the "CMP" does or enforces or admits or not when it comes to "high powered rifle" competition and they range from inspection of spent cases for "pressure signs" if someone seems to be shooting noticeably "flatter" than others to requirements that COLs and "throats" and other dimensions be "by the book" to the very strict and relatively easily "checked" and relatively difficult to "game" ammunition requirements. Being that NRA marksmanship "events" are about improving marksmanship and not about being the best handloader or "wind caller" or having the biggest bank account and that there is no replacement or substitute for "trigger time" and the best "instructor" is experience, its no wonder the NRA is increasingly "taking back" its events and ranges from "CMP-affiliated" clubs and shooters and is giving shooters who want to claim "handicaps" and "disabilities" after decades of "competing" in what is NOT a "competition" to begin with but a "training" and "improvement" and "shoot and improve and learn skills and gain experience that can be and are passed on to others" rather than a "find your niche and start your own "club" and monopolize a public range and make sure the insiders and good old boys always win and the noobs either play by the club rules and pay dearly for the "privilege" or go somewhere else" type of situation their OWN "play by the rules or go somewhere else" decision-making opportunity. The fact is that a bunch of perpetual children who apparently have no lives and no other "talents" or "skills" and nothing else to do with their copious free time have taken over the CMP and many have profited from it BIG-TIME and for some reason or another even thought the CMP doesn't sell any rifles with "optics" besides maybe air guns or rimfire "trainers" and only sells "mil-surplus rifles" in .30-06 Springfield and has horned in on the NRA's turf and congressional charter apparently for all time to come, the CMP seems dead set on NOT allowing "real marksmanship" with "real military-type/mil-surplus rifles" with real "mil-spec" ammunition and good old basic marksmanship fundamentals and practices to be a part of "CMP" competition any more than necessary. They've "expanded" shooting "events" and "classes" to include "benchrest" and multiple "mid-range" and "Palma" long-range events and classes and have done everything but "ban" so-called "assault rifles" aka "ARs" or "gas guns" from their sacred "events" and "classes" EVEN THOUGH in the process they're obviously "excluding" the most popular and most affordable rifles and cartridges out there and tons of "shooters" who would rather NOT play "run and gun" at some "3-gun" match/event and who do NOT consider "benchrest" shooting to be "real" shooting and have no interest in playing "sniper" at some "ELR" event where a "hit" is an "achievement" instead of an expected result. Nope, if you have a "black rifle" or even an M1A or Garand or anything else with "iron sights" that requires actual fundamental skill and practice and dedication to becoming a better marksman to "master" instead of just the ability to spend lots of money on fancy rests and gizmos and gadgets that make "shooting" a process of turning knobs until the crosshairs are on the target and then squeezing a 2-ounce trigger (after "sighters" of course) and with up to hours per "string" and at as many "ranges" as possible, you'd be not "show up" or word is you'll if nothing else be so "embarrassed" by all the "super shooters" and the vast number of amazing "records" and "status" they hold like "High Master" you''ll probably do what most of THEM would do if THEY had to and if they HAVE TO play by the rules and pick up your toys and go home. Nobody wants those "assault rifles" around anyway. They're evil and at the very least "spray brass" and can't shoot for shit regardless and you just as well have a muzzle loader out there as an "assault rifle" to hear the "old timers" tell it. Even IF the NRA feels "differently" on the subject of "assault rifles" AND plenty of other things when it comes to "marksmanship" and "competition" and "purposes" and what "shooting sports" are all about and the "move in and move up and then move on" original intent of "marksmanship training activities" that were never supposed to be perpetual property of "shooters" who can't/won't expand their horizons to other types of shooting and REAL competitions that "experts" should just jump at the opportunity to go participate in but seem to be completely unaware of. And if they DID go "play" elsewhere while in the process getting the hell out of the way for "younger generations" of would-be "shooters" to at least give it a try without having to bow and genuflect and pay through the nose and be "servants" to the "veterans" in order to "earn" the "privilege" of using public ranges and publicly-funded organizations and their resources that were "earmarked" and are funded and exist for "national defense" to make sure there ARE "civilian marksmen" in the population at all times and plenty of them so the "well-regulated militia" the Constitution mentions isn't a bunch of idiots with night-vision "optics" on their "sniper rifles" sitting around online blowing smoke up each others asses about what kick-ass "marksmen" they are on Snipers Hide can stay where everybody knows they WILL or WOULD stay if the "shit hits the fan" which is "in the rear with the gear" guarding the "homefront" and making sure the "Russkies" or "Zombies" don't kidnap their sister wives after they "bug out" and go slay some bodies getting in "gun battles" and such. For some reason though, the CMP and plenty of "clubs" seem to think "shooting skills" and "marksmanship" and "national defense" are better learned "benchrest" shooting for "aggregates" or with"wind coaches" and "F-class" rifles so damned "heavy" and bulky and awkward most guys won't even "hump" them to the "firing line" all of several dozen yards from their vehicles and need their little "carts" to transport them and all the crap they "need" to "compete" or better yet "benchrest" shooting when a "disability" just makes it way too hard or impossible to shoot "prone" although sitting on ass at a concrete/steel "bench" for hours is no problem at all. That's what a "new shooter" at a CMP-affiliated event seems to be faced with from what I see and read online. I'm not about to waste my time and money and risk getting "beaten" or even "embarrassed" by a bunch of doddering old fools so damned scared of not being the "winner" of a pissant local "event" and "class" they probably have all to themselves anyway incessantly "manipulate" and "create" new "rules" and "policies" that make some random "shooter" with an AR the "bad guy" even though he and his rifle damned sure have way more "right" to be there than they do. And they're always all about "rules". All while "CMP-affiliated" clubs full of "old-timers" who don't enforce a single NRA rule that doesn't benefit them while gladly taking NRA "funds" and using them to build and "improve" PUBLIC ranges they then "open to the public" a few days a week in the mid-morning and mid-afternoon when SO MANY "working" people and "young people" are able to GO SHOOTING and only under the "supervision" of "range officers" while come the WEEKENDS the PUBLIC range is "closed" as the little "club" and its "members" monopolize and play on to their hearts content their own little NRA and government-subsidized "playgrounds".
+Jack Mccrady This event was a kind of intro to F-class and palma for our club. One of our admins is the 2013-14 national palma champion so he wanted to take us out and give us "Tactical" or PRS style shooters a taste for what he does and it was awesome. In Palma they shoot primarily .308 with 155 gr bullets or 223 also. You can google palma for more details. They shoot at 600-1000 yards with open sights using a sling for support (no bipod). F-class is not caliber specific but one of the most popular calibers is 7mm like the straight 284. They can use a bipod or a hi-end adjustable rest in f-class. It's a kind of open class if you will. FTR is the same but it's limited to .308 only. So it just depends on which of these disciplines you're asking about. Some specify the caliber and even bullet weight, others there is no caliber designation but your rifle can only weight a certain amount. It just depends. check out 6mmbr.com or accurateshooter.com for more info.
You're correct. This was an into event so they allowed us to use muzzle brakes and 95% of use were first timers to this discipline. Sorry for any confusion.
I am really surprised that there are not hundreds of men competing for this competition. I get the feeling that precision shooting is big. Well, I guess it is not.
This was more of a practice match and wind clinic put on by one of our member to introduce us to F-class & Palma classes of shooting. Plus it was all the way out in Wendover which is a couple hours drive. Both of these gentlemen are on the US Long Range Shooting team. Eric is the 2013 & 2014 Palma National Champion. We're blessed to have them in our group.
Because that's a PUBLIC RANGE funded in part BY the NRA AND OWNED by U.S. CITIZENS and not the CIVILIANS who join the "CMP" and as an NRA-SANCTIONED COMPETITION UNDER NRA RULES ONLY NRA MEMBERS ARE PERMITTED TO PARTICIPATE. But the CMP lets Canadians and Australians and other "civilians" in and pretends that its "CMP-affiliated clubs" and the PUBLIC ranges they take over are "private" and off-limits to all things "public" and "civic" and the property of CITIZENS in the U.S. They only ask in this "public" TH-cam video so it NRA members who know the real story will think they're "playing by the rules" when in fact they flip the middle finger at the NRA and citizens at every opportunity and just love playing on their "private playgrounds" pretty much 100% funded, supplied and provided by the NRA and U.S. citizens and "taxpayer dollars". They're all about "freedom" and "liberty" and "2nd Amendment Right". For THEM, anyway. Everybody else - including NRA members and those who know that about 90% of "CMP-created" events/classes are not only "unrecognized by" and "irrelevant" to the NRA but also are completely COUNTER to the "mission" of the NRA and the type of shooting and MARKSMANSHIP the NRA exists to help promote and enable and create for ANY CITIZEN WHO WANTS TO LEARN VALUABLE SKILLS THAT COULD ALLOW HE/SHE TO "DEFEND" HIS/HER COUNTRY OR SIMPLY THEIR "HOME" because there is no NRA "benchrest" or "Palma" or "F-class" bullshit "shooting" where its more about the "hardware" in the shooters hands or rather on his/her "rests" than the "software" between his/her ears. And the reason you see so many "oddball" wildcats like a "7mm-300WM" when a 7mm Remington Magnum is pretty much a fucking "necked down" .300 Winchester Magnum shooting 7mm bullets is because in the foreign countries they like to go play in and many of them have "family" in, "military rifles" and rifles chambered for "military cartridges" are "banned". Especially if they happen to be "American" in origin. And yes, both 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum HAVE "military heritage" in the U.S. and since "American" calibers in "standard" units like inches offend their delicate "metric-loving" sensibilities and they vastly prefer to think of "6mm" instead of ".243" and "6.5mm" instead of ".264" and "7mm" instead of ".277" and pretty much "hate" anything ".30-caliber" because the "best" .30-calibers are MILITARY cartridges AND its way easier to "export" to their "families" back home "sporting" or "hunting" or "target" hardware and especially "metric" hardware and because exporting "military" and/or "American" hardware might attract unwanted "attention", they come up with all kinds of oddball "wildcats" too numerous to keep track of and all at least partially "metric" and usually with the "American" parts "abbreviated" (Winchester Magnum becomes "WM" and "Creedmoor" becomes "CM" etc etc etc - almost "metric" if you're "inclined" to see any letter and "M" behind a number and are slightly "dyslexic" or just STUPID and translate it to "something meters" ) so even the commercial, proprietary "SAAMI" cartridges and cases they "export" can end up being "adopted" by Lapua with Lapua "modifying" and "improving" them with some "significant" change like substituting a small primer for a large primer or removing the "stupid pointless belt from belted magnums" and THEN introducing the NEW CARTRIDGE AS THEIR VERY OWN "LAPUA WHATEVER". Basically the U.S. is where Lapua "R&D" and "innovation" happens and a bunch of "Americans" and "friendly foreigners" do most of it importing foreign "arms related items" and using public citizen-owned ranges they keep the "public" off of except for maybe a couple hours on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday when "working Americans" and "young people" all have so much time to go shooting and that way "their" range stays "open to the public" and they "reserve" it for their own "play time"...I mean "events" and "competitions" and "matches" every weekend from sunrise Friday to sundown Sunday. That's when they're out there shooting "world records" and "long-range" groups and aggregates and scores and such in their own "special CMP events" the NRA doesn't recognize or even have rules for and therefore doesn't "allow" and you'll never find at "Camp Perry" (anymore at least lol!) or any other NRA "event" because "benchrest" is not "shooting" and "prone" doesn't include bipods and bags and mats and rests and the NRA has never promoted the use of "optics" or any other "crutch" as a way to become or become a better "marksman" since damned few "wars" or even "home defense" situations involve "engaging" an "enemy" or "threat" at "long distance" one minute and "close quarters" the next and "optics" just don't go from one to the other too damned well. Not to mention damned few wars are "dawn to dusk" and "weather permitting" and "sniping" isn't NEARLY as "common" in the real world as the F-class and ELR clowns think it is and NEVER against "civilians" hundreds or thousands of yards away just hanging out while a murderer "defending" his/her "home" gets all their "range gear" set up and gets their "range cart" up to the "firing line" and gets their dozens or hundreds of pounds of "gear" all ready and gets set up for...sighters. That's how fucking "legitimate" of an organization the CMP is and how dedicated to "marksmanship" the "CMP-affiliated" clubs who play by "CMP" rules while ignoring or "modifying" or "amending" NRA rules really are. They think "sighters" are a fucking "right" and "marksmanship" is something that is "owed" rather than "earned".
Man, there are some heavy holders on that line. Amazing to see the shooters that this country has out on the block. This is what a free society produces. Isn't this country great. Outstanding shooting gents.
Heavy holders? Who would jack around with "hold" with such a steady and not at all "high" wind blowing across the range and with the "home field advantage" and all? The larger and "lighter" a "wind flag" is the more like real "wind" a steady "breeze" looks. Most people have no clue what "real" wind is and damned sure don't shoot out in "desert" conditions in it since you end up with dust and debris blowing everywhere and mainly can't keep it out of your eyes even with shooting glasses on. And the winds that "kill" are GUSTS that often won't even "move" a wind flag any more than a steady "breeze" is besides momentarily "whipping" it since as WIND SPEEDS INCREASE the "AIR PRESSURE" WITHIN THE WIND "DECREASES" AND ANYTHING THAT CAN BE "BLOWN" BY THE WIND IS PROPORTIONATELY LESS AFFECTED BY IT. A "GUST" CAN CAUSE A FLAG TO "DROP" BECAUSE SUDDENLY THE "ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE" AND STEADY FRICTION OF A "BREEZE" IS GONE. And those light, tapered flags don't do SHIT as far as indicating "wind speed". They're super lightweight synthetic nylon cloth that would be shredded in only hours of real strong continuous "wind". Not to mention that people think of wind in "miles per hour" and fail to "get" that you're dealing with "feet per second" shooting. A 15 MPH WIND IS BLOWING 22 FEET PER SECOND. DAMNED NEAR ANY REASONABLY "FIT" AND COORDINATED HUMAN BEING CAN RUN 15 MPH FOR AT LEAST A SHORT DISTANCE AND WITH A BULLET IN FLIGHT FOR AT MOST 1-2 SECONDS, EVEN A STEAD 15 MPH WIND CAN ONLY "THEORETICALLY" BLOW A BULLET "SIDEWAYS" 11-22 FEET. BUT OF COURSE A BULLET ISN'T "STATIC" IN THE WIND AND IF IT WERE "BLOWN" SIGNIFICANTLY BY THE WIND ITS WIDER "TAIL" WOULD BE MORE AFFECTED BY ITS NARROWER "NOSE" AND IT WOULD TEND TO "SWAP ENDS" SINCE "SPIN STABILIZATION" JUST MEANS ITS IN A PERFECT POSITION TO BE "IMPACTED" BY THE WIND. AND "HORIZONTAL" WIND HAS THE LEAST "EFFECT" ON MOVING OBJECTS DEALING WITH "WIND RESISTANCE". ANYBODY WHO HAS DRIVEN A PICKUP AND LARGE LIVESTOCK OR CAMPER OR ENCLOSED TRAILER OR A SEMI TRUCK AND TRAILER OR ANY OTHER LARGE VEHICLE WITH LOTS OF SURFACE AREA AND "CROSS SECTION" KNOWS THAT THE WORST WIND TO DEAL WITH AND THAT HAS THE MOST "EFFECT" ON A MOVING OBJECT ISN'T A "HEADWIND" OR "SIDE WIND" BUT A "QUARTERING" WIND COMING FROM ABOUT THE 10 O'CLOCK OR 2 O'CLOCK POSITION AND CATCHING AS MUCH SURFACE AREA AS POSSIBLE. It won't tend to "blow over" a vehicle like that by "tipping" it but it requires way more power and fuel to "buck" and when a gust "hits" it will physically slow down the vehicle right now. The same gust hitting from the side just tends to "rock" the vehicle. I've drive semis pulling grain trailers in "real" wind blowing 30-40 mph straight across a road and with an empty grain trailer I could see "daylight" under my "upwind" trailer tires nearly all the time but because the trailer was being "tipped" instead of "pushed sideways" and wasn't tending to pull the rear end of the tractor over I never "felt" the wind at all. Turning a corner and having that same wind "quarter" against the tractor for even a few seconds I could feel it buffet the truck. And since the higher the speed of a gas the lower its pressure, a 10 mph wind may blow twice as fast as a 5 mph wind but the pressure of the "gas" we call "air" is "halved". That's why a "full value" wind is a "full value" wind regardless of wind speed and why beyond "full value" no additional "wind correction" is necessary. A "full value" wind is one that will have "maximum effect" on a given projectile in flight and beyond that because the pressure drops and the force of the wind on the projectile drops as well, the bullet isn't going to be "blown sideways" any more as wind increases. And you don't have to worry about "gusts".
A "half-value" wind is one that can can and will go from "half strength" to "zero effect" and "full effect" IF it gets "gusty" but since "gusts" are the result of wind - which is moving air moving from "high pressure" to "low pressure" or "high elevation" to "low elevation" or "high temp" to "low temp" or "high humidity to "low humidity" and - striking and having to "go around" obstacles, shooting in what is basically a "dry lakebed" with NO obstacles and where the wind is just blowing from a "high" of some kind to a "low" means the wind will be just what it is in the video. Steady and completely "predictable" and the only thing its ever going to do is go DOWN since "high winds" and "increasing winds" are the result of a "low" or "high" growing and "stormy" weather prior to the two air masses "meeting". Deserts don't have "storms" and that wind is almost certainly a daily local weather phenomena just like on a sea coast during part of every day winds blow "out to sea" and part of every day winds blow "inland".
My guess is that roughly 12 hours after whatever time of day that wind starts blowing left to right it "reverses" and blows right to left. Regardless its not even "strong" or "gusty" or "high" enough to "stir up" any dust and doesn't even affect the "mirage" much. Its also worth mentioning that they're probably only shooting 600 yards and with that much "mirage" and with that much "elevation" at their firing line and being able to shoot that "flat", their bullets probably never get high enough above the ground for the same wind that's blowing that "wind flag" to touch their bullets and if so its for small fractions of second and may even "help" their shooting if the "low pressure" up there happens to coincide with a bullet "nosing over" in its trajectory which is why many "low drag" bullets that are way too long for caliber and inherently "unstable" actually "de-stabilize". Lower pressure means lower drag and improved "BC" without having to increase velocity or weight and SD to do it.
If this were NRA "high-powered rifle" competition at 1000 yards the way it was and still is "meant" to be and the way it is where serious skill and "wind reading" ability are required as well as "young man's" vision combined with LOTS of "trigger time" and "experience" and "wisdom" and the knowledge that you're NOT "competing" to "win" but simply to "finish" and "improve" and in conditions most "shooters" wouldn't even leave the house in, they'd be shooting 1000 yards with "iron sights" and "scoring" would be via "disking" the target with a white disk on a tall pole held at or waved over certain parts of the target and in certain directions to "communicate" their last shot impact to them and with no "wind coach" or "spotter" and they'd be shooting "service rifles" in a TRUE "prone" position with no bipods or rests or other crutches to make "shooters" think they're "marksmen".
They're shooting 20X or larger "optics" so those 600-yard targets that are 10 MOA top to bottom and side to side with a black "scoring" section "bullseye" a good 5-6 MOA across and a "10-ring" probably 1.5 MOA across "look like" they're 30 yards away and essentially the "black circle" is "filling" their "optic". And given how they and their targets are "spaced" and how the guys pulling targets and "scoring" or rather "marking" their hits are only "pulling" AFTER a "hit" and should have no clue whatsoever who is shooting and when unless someone back at the firing line is "cueing" them, it's certainly interesting that anyone would think they're really "shooting" and would just automatically believe that because they're seeing "pasters" go up on targets there are "hits" beneath them.
There aren't too many "clubs" with "private ranges" that are actually PUBLIC RANGES the "club" pretends/claims/misleads people to think is "private" that are remotely interested in losing their little "playgrounds" and most of them are playing by "CMP rules" instead of "NRA rules" despite the NRA being the older and "federal" organization for "rifle marksmanship" and "training" and "practice" and "improving" skills and abilities shooting "offhand" the way a "soldier" or member of a "militia" is very likely to do if called upon to "defend" his or her country or home as a CITIZEN while the CMP is a "civilian" marksmanship program that exists only to "distribute" military-surplus and "obsolete" guns and other surplus "shooting team" and "shooting sports" equipment from the "national teams" and other organizations to "members" of "CMP-affiliated clubs" and essentially makes HUGE amounts of money and "profit" from "donated" and "worthless" surplus (no longer needed, wanted or of "value") equipment and NOT to just "citizens" but any "civilian" who joins the right "club". That INCLUDES "foreigners" from countries here as "visitors" or "permanent residents" who otherwise wouldn't/couldn't purchase and possess "firearms" and who come from countries that supposedly have "bans" on "military weapons" and even "firearms" chambered for "military cartridges".
All the "lets keep making new "classes" and "events" so everybody has a "niche" and something they can "succeed" in and lets "shitcan" the NRA and pretend like the NRA DOESN'T "fund" our "private ranges" we occasionally and for brief periods during times when 99% of "civilians" who work for a living and/or are in school can't go "shooting" open to the "public" so we can have them all to ourselves on "weekends" for our "every weekend" so-called "matches" and "competitions" and lets benefit from an NRA we detest in a country we don't consider ourselves "citizens" of until a "gun grab scare" is over along with another "war" and ammo and guns and more "surplus" shit we can sell or keep as we please is "ours" to hoard again" is coming to an end whether the "old-timers" in the CMP with all the "power" like it or realize it or not and the CMP essentially "applauding" Obama's "ban" on "importation" and CMP "sales" of 1911 pistols only proved just which "national marksmanship organization" is here for CITIZENS and which is here for "civilians" and just which would rather let FOREIGNERS on public ranges in the U.S. than U.S. CITIZENS WHO OWN THEM.
@@deeremeyer1749 u good?
Good job Bryce..u are the one that got me out to a mile with my 6.5prc..with milk jug challenge..thanks
nice to see a couple of RPA's in action over there..one lovely piece of english precision equipment..im an Ausie and if youve guessed yes i use one too shooting palma.
some nice shooting there guys..those flags showing left wind,,right wind,,no wind and mirage doin its thing make it fun eh??
I like how plain and to the point he is.
Those are huge targets. I shoot at 24X24" 12X12" and 590ml bottles at 800-1000m depending on the wind. I am not a competition shooter so i don't have to make nice groups for score though.
Lots of sore necks on a range with no backstop! I usually rest my hand against the target carrier and can often feel an impact so I don't need to be looking up for 20 or 30 min at a time!
yes were nra members, and amazing shooting
(are you nra member) lol
Great program
At 7:09 is a very unsafe condition. This shooter is approximately 3 feet behind the firing line! His muzzle blast has to be very disturbing to the shooter on his left. Why was this shooter allowed to place his rifle so far behind the firing line!? In my day, this shooter would have been instructed to move up to the firing line or find another sport to participate in. Also, it appears that shots that are in the X ring are being scored as 10's. This is apparent at 8:55. That shot on target #7 is definitely an X! And at 9:21 that is an X on target 7. I would have been challenging those shots as the target puller obviously is not scoring correctly!
What does that big jacket do that Bryce haD on
Mitigates movement from your heart beat/breathing. It’s also super stiff so it helps you keep a steady position
Where is that megalithic the sheep counters founded?
I was curious. For shooting like that have guys ever used those ammo can cameras to see where their rounds hit, for adjustments? Or do you always need to use a spotter? I've never shot competition so was just curious. I dont know your rules or anything just figured by the commercials I see online they'd allow you a perfect clear view of your targets up close from the firing line.
Curt Warkentin that was my first and last time shooting F-class as it’s a bit too far of a drive but I have a Target Vision 2 mile camera so we could use that but the way they mark it, it really doesn’t matter, a spotting scope works fine.
Curt Warkentin Long Range Shooting 2000 Yards - Tikka 6.5 x 47 Lapua vs Milk Jug th-cam.com/video/qJUOeB7ldj8/w-d-xo.html
MARK R LIFE custom 2506 , shooting long range since I was 12 yrs w a .22 thx 2nd protect
I've checked Centerville small arms and they don't show any info on wendover matches this year. Are they still doing these matches?
OMG massive target size, in australia they shoot F class at 24" x 12" target at 1,100 yards and also 18" x 18 " targets ?
The first guy shooting isn't using an optic, idk if u noticed that... but the actual scoring area is far smaller than the target itself.
@15:03 Bryce?
Why did you have to put on that jacket to shoot the Palma ????
Like to know that as well
@@jamessammann9183 The jacket is there to reduce the effect of your heart beat on the aim as well as providing more structure to the position, otherwise people tire when in the aim for 20+ mins during matches
@@hypocriticalmarshmallow7958 thanks
Doesn't look like "vapor trail" atmospheric and light and range conditions to me. And winds at the target pits don't matter much regardless. The wind at the firing line that the shooter can actually feel and that are going to try to shift the shooter and rifle to the side are way more relevant to a good "wind call" than what's happening at the targets. The only time "changing wind conditions" like actual directional changes and shifts from "gusts" to "steady" or much stronger gusts are going to have major "long-term" effects on your shooting is if you spend major amounts of time try to "call the wind" and are too busy trying to "call" winds downrange and wait for the next "lull" instead of realizing if the wind is "calm" or as "calm" as its been at the firing line you're IN the "lull" and need to get a freaking bullet downrange. A 15 mph wind moves at 22 feet per second. A bullet that's in the air less than 2 seconds can't possibly be "shifted" more than 11 feet horizontally during its flight and clearly a bullet that is spinning "away" from the wind at tens of thousands of RPM and is leaving a "vapor trail" is AFFECTING THE AIR ITS TRAVELING THROUGH FAR MORE THAN THE AIR ITS TRAVELING THROUGH IS AFFECTING IT.
And that's at 1000 yards. At 600 yards the flight time is well under 1 second and the maximum distance a bullet could possibly be shifted sideways during its flight is approximately the width of a "target". Jacking around trying to "call wind" instead of making sure your rifle is "sighted in" properly and "zeroed" as perfectly as possible windage-wise and shooting during "lulls" and then remembering the "feel" of the wind for your "best" shot so far in a string is how you deal with the wind. Shoot quickly and confidently and realize that you're not there to win a wind-calling contest. You're there to improve your SHOOTING SKILLS and there is no "competition" with anybody else there just like you're not playing other golfers on the golf course.
Its about personal improvement and the more you rely on "experts" to do things like "call the wind" for you the less you "own" whatever success you have, the less satisfying any improvement or "win" will be and the more quickly you'll resent and dislike having "experts" tell you how and when to shoot every time their "call" prevents you from making your own call and owning your own performance "win or lose" and especially if you find yourself "regressing" instead of "progressing" over time the more experience and trigger time and "instruction" you get.
Anybody who is there "calling wind" isn't shooting and isn't pulling targets and obviously isn't there to show what they can do with a rifle for some reason and will never, ever be an "expert" on you, your rifle, how you shoot and isn't going to "lose" with you but damned sure will "win" with you and let everybody know how "important" they were to your success even if you're smart enough to ignore them and do your own thing.
Of course to be able to "call the wind" downrange using those "target pit end flags" you'd have to do something CRAZY like DIAL BACK YOUR SCOPE to the point you're NOT able to "spot" your own shots anyway and that's ANOTHER key to "calling the wind" or rather being as unaffected by it as possible. If you're trying to "chase zero" and "fix" the last shot with a "correction" and you have enough scope "power" to see the numbers and the rings on the target, you're going to miss the forest for the trees and you'll find that its way HARDER to see how the wind affects YOU at the firing line because the higher the "power" the "smaller" any movement is relative to the TARGET and especially if you have a SFP scope because the higher the power with an SFP scope the "larger" the target gets relative to the reticle as magnification is increased by because the target appears "closer" and you're seeing a smaller portion of it, your reticle will actually look larger relative to the target.
Sure the reticle staying the same size means it "covers" more of the target at longer distances and lower powers but at high power as the target "grows" in the scope, the reticle itself which is always "full size" in the objective ends up "covering" more and more of the target "side to side" and "top to bottom" as your field of view shrinks. Then you end up with a closer view, more references like visible marks and numbers on the target and the "hashmarks" on your reticle and because the target looks so "big" and you can aim so "small", its very easy to lose sight of the "big picture" and very easy to let how obvious and "wobble" or "wiggle" or "flinch" or "jerk" is because of how "far" it moves the reticle on the target and how suddenly a "bullseye" can disappear let you obsess over those "shifts" and think about them combined with "wind" and the next thing you know you've got a death grip on the rifle trying your damndest to "hold steady" and that much more time to "tense up" and get "tunnel vision" and either "jump" and jerk a horrible shot when your "wind coach" finally tells you to "send it" that any "correction" you may have made is wiped out or mutiplied OR you've been so focused on "hold" and trying to be "steady" to keep your crosshairs from moving at all on the target that's STILL hundreds or a thousand yards away (more likely "just" hundreds since most "volunteer" wind coaches "disappear" come 1000-yard or even 600-yard time and it takes a "target" scope to have too much "power" at 1000 yards) that you realize you never made a wind "correction" at all but STILL "jerked" or "flinched" so that even if you somehow make a good shot you won't know "why" or "how" and you'll damned sure do your damndest NOT to "do that again". Even IF tuning out the "wind coach" and suddenly just "jerking off a shot" without a "correction" is EXACTLY WHY YOU MADE THAT "GOOD" SHOT.
The bottom line is an SFP scope and having "too much power" can easily "hurt" more than they "help" regardless of what "experts" say. Dialing back until its "easy" to keep the crosshairs "on target" because you can't see "exactly" how far every little "wiggle" or "jiggle" moves them across the target "face" and paying attention only to the wind where you can FEEL it which is the ONLY wind that can affect YOU and making sure that when necessary you can "dial back" from "tunnel vision" are HUGE "advantages" and ones that only YOU have to know you have. There's a REASON plenty of "optics" come in both FFP and SFP and outwardly are "identical" so only the "shooter" knows. That's because when the few companies that "pioneered" FFP optics for "sport shooting" did so they realized that the "competition" would immediately jump on any "difference" and any claimed "advantage" and call it a "disadvantage" simply because they were caught completely unprepared and as usual and as is typical of "optic" companies that at most have been around a few decades instead of all of the current and a big chunk of the last CENTURIES and that haven't pioneered jack shit besides how to turn "military contracts" into "high-end optics" and "premium quality" and "stupidly high prices" despite being the "low bidder" for those "military contracts" ONCE SOMETHING NEW THEY COULDN'T IMMEDIATELY "COPY" AND HAVE THEIR "OVERSEAS" FACTORIES CRANK OUT SUPER FAST AND EASY OR "IMPROVE" LIKE A BIGGER OBJECTIVE OR LARGER TUBE OR SOME NEW "TACTICAL" RETICLE AND THEN JUST USE AS A "JUSTIFICATION" TO TACK ANOTHER SEVERAL HUNDRED BUCKS ON THEIR MSRP AND "STREET PRICE".
And that's EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH "FFP" OPTICS WHEN NIGHTFORCE AND SCHMIDT & BENDER AND U.S. OPTICS AND THE OTHER "TACTICAL" AND SUPPOSEDLY "SUPERIOR" OPTICS MANUFACTURERS WERE SUDDENLY LEFT STANDING THEIR "FFP-LESS" AND "CLUELESS" ON HOW AN FFP OPTIC EVEN "WORKS" AND WHAT ACTUALLY "HAPPENS" WHEN MAGNIFICATION IS CHANGED BECAUSE THE FEW MANUFACTURERS WHO "PIONEERED" THE FFP OPTIC LIKE ALWAYS DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY SHIP OUT THE FIRST SEVERAL HUNDRED OR THOUSAND OF THEM TO "REVIEWERS" OR "FIREARMS JOURNALISTS" OR "EXPERTS" AND DIDN'T EVEN INTRODUCE BRAND-NEW FFP-ONLY OPTICS BUT INSTEAD JUST ADDED THE OPTION TO EXISTING PRODUCT LINES AND MADE SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY WERE "BELIEVERS" IN THE COMPANIES FIRST AND THEIR PRODUCTS SECOND AND THEIR HISTORY AND REPUTATIONS FOR MAKING QUALITY "SPORT OPTICS" OF ALL KINDS FOR DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES BEFORE THERE WAS A NIGHTFORCE OR S&B OR U.S.O. AND WHO PUT SOME "SKIN IN THE GAME" GOT THEM FIRST. THAT THE "EXPERTS" WERE SENT OUT BY THE FFP-LESS OPTICS MANUFACTURERS WITH BULLSHIT "EXPLANATIONS" AND "DESCRIPTIONS" AND TALKING POINTS LISTS OF "CONS" AND BASICALLY HAD NO "PROS" WHATSOEVER DESPITE HAVING FAITHFULLY SHILLED AND PROMOTED EVERY LITTLE "ADVANCE" FROM THEIR "FAVORITE" OPTICS COMPANY FOR YEARS EVEN IF IT WASN'T AN "IMPROVEMENT" AT ALL AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS OBVIOUSLY THAT "FFP" WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY A REAL "IMPROVEMENT" OR AT LEAST "ADVANCE". THE SAME CLOWNS WHO FELLATE NIGHTFORCE ONLINE EVERY CHANCE THEY GET AND THINK A "NEW" FEATURE LIKE A NEW "VERSION" OF SOME IDIOTIC "TACTICAL" RETICLE THAT DIDN'T "SELL" IN THE PREVIOUS "VERSION(S)" IS AN EARTH-SHATTERING EVENT WOULDN'T EVEN MENTION "CONSISTENT" RANGING ACROSS ALL "POWERS" EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE WANNABE "SNIPERS". AND THEY LIED ANYWAY.
FFP scopes have the reticle "full size" at maximum power and it "fills the scope" and contrary to endless bullshit "information" and "explanations" from online "experts", since that is the case and its the size of the reticle that changes in your "field of view" and it gets smaller and takes up less of the "image" and actually "shrinks" as power is reduced, its impossible to "dial back" in power and have the target "shrink" relative to the reticle. The target and reticle stay the "same size" relative to each other only you get to increase your field of view and both the target and reticle are less "in your face" while "ranging" is unaffected.
Off topic: Do you have any experience or know of anyone who has experience with a CheyTac .408 m200? The round sounds great. But, the chassis seems to be too light. Have you heard if the recoil is beyond reasonable?
+MrSottobanco No experience. The price tag makes it a rare thing to come across.
+MrSottobanco That would be a waste of powder and lead to shoot that short.
taiming71 Agreed. That's a cartridge and rifle that was specifically designed specifically for the absolute extreme outer limits of a rifle with no limitations to budget. Using it for what we do would be like using a bulldozer to pull weeds in your flower garden.
hello do you know how to call the viewfinder first shooter? thank you
"How many more do I have?" Well, if you take your empties and put them back in your little ammo box in rows separate from your loaded ammo you'll know by how many rounds you've fired how many you have "left". Unless he's asking how many "sighters" he has left or something and has no idea where his bullets have actually gone.
This might be a really stupid question, but what kind of "tripod" are you using for the spotting scopes? Are they custom built?
If you mean the one's shown in the video then they are primary sold by creedmoor sports or champions choice. They are standard practice for those shooting these types of matches because you can lower the optic right down to the ground for use when you're shooting prone and need to roll on your side to spot your own shots.
I would have a little trouble shooting at that range with the buildings to the left of the targets. Doesn't look particularly safe or smart. The buildings may be "empty" but "emtpy" has a bad habit of becoming "occupied" at the worst time.
It's a military base or former military base and theres no way to get to building without driving right thru the range. Plus these guys are putting nearly every shot in the 9 or 10 ring.
Abandoned Air Force Base. Closed in about 1978 or thereabouts and very few of the buildings are used for anything. Most were torn down a long time ago. If you've ever been to Wendover, Utah, you'd understand why there is no danger here.
Great video! Never knew this went on there and I am from Wendover. Have a question on the loads that the shooters are using in the competition. What is the brand of bullet, grain, and powder load for the 308 at 800 yards if you have that info?
I don't but I can try and find out for you. For Palma it's a requirement to shoot either 223 or .308. In the .308 it's 155 gr only which makes it all the more challenging. It's not meant to be ideal, it's meant to be a challenge. The ultimate test of skill and wind reading and shooting unsupported from a sling and open sights. I would guess they are using Varget for powder but it could be anything. Sorry I'm not more help.
Thanks for the reply and info.
Long Range Shooters of Utah 17:00 don't get a Palmer get a Bleiker or a Grunig & Elmiger way better. Seriously with bipod and scopes are way too easy pp can do that with iron sights and slings.
The ammo is supposed to be loaded to "service rifle" specs and 155-grain bullets in .308-caliber are few and far between compared to other bullet weights in that huge "family" and weight range. Powders are also fairly limited and "Palma" .308 Winchester cases with small primer pockets severely limit powder selection to 10 or 12 powders that are "medium fast" if anything and max velocities are about 2600 for "commercial" service rifle ammunition and load data consistent with the ammunition being "friendly" to the M14/M1A rifle the "class" was ORIGINALLY created for. Good old IMR 4064 is about the "best" powder in terms of fully filling a case properly loaded to the specified COL without "compressing" any powder which only causes unpredictable and inconsistent firing and pressures and velocities and makes for a very temperature-sensitive "load" regardless of rifle, cartridge and bullet weight.
The small rifle primers which seem to be mainly a "European" thing like other European "modifications" of American "SAAMI" cartridge specifications serve to make it much harder to "cheat" by slipping in large rifle Magnum primers and the only "military" primers that would be consistent with "safety" and avoiding "slam-fires" would be CCI #450s which have a very "hard" cup but are "military" primers for 5.56x45 NATO ammo designed to be extremely hard to "pierce" and very hard to "slam-fire" whether the rifle is malfunctioning or is "dropped" and which are "magnum" primers to make sure 5.56x45 reliably functions at very cold temps while not causing excessive pressure at high temps or in an "overcharge" situation or "flashover" if a mass-produced military round is somehow "undercharged".
There are plenty of "safety" rules the NRA has whether the "CMP" does or enforces or admits or not when it comes to "high powered rifle" competition and they range from inspection of spent cases for "pressure signs" if someone seems to be shooting noticeably "flatter" than others to requirements that COLs and "throats" and other dimensions be "by the book" to the very strict and relatively easily "checked" and relatively difficult to "game" ammunition requirements. Being that NRA marksmanship "events" are about improving marksmanship and not about being the best handloader or "wind caller" or having the biggest bank account and that there is no replacement or substitute for "trigger time" and the best "instructor" is experience, its no wonder the NRA is increasingly "taking back" its events and ranges from "CMP-affiliated" clubs and shooters and is giving shooters who want to claim "handicaps" and "disabilities" after decades of "competing" in what is NOT a "competition" to begin with but a "training" and "improvement" and "shoot and improve and learn skills and gain experience that can be and are passed on to others" rather than a "find your niche and start your own "club" and monopolize a public range and make sure the insiders and good old boys always win and the noobs either play by the club rules and pay dearly for the "privilege" or go somewhere else" type of situation their OWN "play by the rules or go somewhere else" decision-making opportunity.
The fact is that a bunch of perpetual children who apparently have no lives and no other "talents" or "skills" and nothing else to do with their copious free time have taken over the CMP and many have profited from it BIG-TIME and for some reason or another even thought the CMP doesn't sell any rifles with "optics" besides maybe air guns or rimfire "trainers" and only sells "mil-surplus rifles" in .30-06 Springfield and has horned in on the NRA's turf and congressional charter apparently for all time to come, the CMP seems dead set on NOT allowing "real marksmanship" with "real military-type/mil-surplus rifles" with real "mil-spec" ammunition and good old basic marksmanship fundamentals and practices to be a part of "CMP" competition any more than necessary.
They've "expanded" shooting "events" and "classes" to include "benchrest" and multiple "mid-range" and "Palma" long-range events and classes and have done everything but "ban" so-called "assault rifles" aka "ARs" or "gas guns" from their sacred "events" and "classes" EVEN THOUGH in the process they're obviously "excluding" the most popular and most affordable rifles and cartridges out there and tons of "shooters" who would rather NOT play "run and gun" at some "3-gun" match/event and who do NOT consider "benchrest" shooting to be "real" shooting and have no interest in playing "sniper" at some "ELR" event where a "hit" is an "achievement" instead of an expected result. Nope, if you have a "black rifle" or even an M1A or Garand or anything else with "iron sights" that requires actual fundamental skill and practice and dedication to becoming a better marksman to "master" instead of just the ability to spend lots of money on fancy rests and gizmos and gadgets that make "shooting" a process of turning knobs until the crosshairs are on the target and then squeezing a 2-ounce trigger (after "sighters" of course) and with up to hours per "string" and at as many "ranges" as possible, you'd be not "show up" or word is you'll if nothing else be so "embarrassed" by all the "super shooters" and the vast number of amazing "records" and "status" they hold like "High Master" you''ll probably do what most of THEM would do if THEY had to and if they HAVE TO play by the rules and pick up your toys and go home.
Nobody wants those "assault rifles" around anyway. They're evil and at the very least "spray brass" and can't shoot for shit regardless and you just as well have a muzzle loader out there as an "assault rifle" to hear the "old timers" tell it. Even IF the NRA feels "differently" on the subject of "assault rifles" AND plenty of other things when it comes to "marksmanship" and "competition" and "purposes" and what "shooting sports" are all about and the "move in and move up and then move on" original intent of "marksmanship training activities" that were never supposed to be perpetual property of "shooters" who can't/won't expand their horizons to other types of shooting and REAL competitions that "experts" should just jump at the opportunity to go participate in but seem to be completely unaware of.
And if they DID go "play" elsewhere while in the process getting the hell out of the way for "younger generations" of would-be "shooters" to at least give it a try without having to bow and genuflect and pay through the nose and be "servants" to the "veterans" in order to "earn" the "privilege" of using public ranges and publicly-funded organizations and their resources that were "earmarked" and are funded and exist for "national defense" to make sure there ARE "civilian marksmen" in the population at all times and plenty of them so the "well-regulated militia" the Constitution mentions isn't a bunch of idiots with night-vision "optics" on their "sniper rifles" sitting around online blowing smoke up each others asses about what kick-ass "marksmen" they are on Snipers Hide can stay where everybody knows they WILL or WOULD stay if the "shit hits the fan" which is "in the rear with the gear" guarding the "homefront" and making sure the "Russkies" or "Zombies" don't kidnap their sister wives after they "bug out" and go slay some bodies getting in "gun battles" and such.
For some reason though, the CMP and plenty of "clubs" seem to think "shooting skills" and "marksmanship" and "national defense" are better learned "benchrest" shooting for "aggregates" or with"wind coaches" and "F-class" rifles so damned "heavy" and bulky and awkward most guys won't even "hump" them to the "firing line" all of several dozen yards from their vehicles and need their little "carts" to transport them and all the crap they "need" to "compete" or better yet "benchrest" shooting when a "disability" just makes it way too hard or impossible to shoot "prone" although sitting on ass at a concrete/steel "bench" for hours is no problem at all.
That's what a "new shooter" at a CMP-affiliated event seems to be faced with from what I see and read online. I'm not about to waste my time and money and risk getting "beaten" or even "embarrassed" by a bunch of doddering old fools so damned scared of not being the "winner" of a pissant local "event" and "class" they probably have all to themselves anyway incessantly "manipulate" and "create" new "rules" and "policies" that make some random "shooter" with an AR the "bad guy" even though he and his rifle damned sure have way more "right" to be there than they do. And they're always all about "rules".
All while "CMP-affiliated" clubs full of "old-timers" who don't enforce a single NRA rule that doesn't benefit them while gladly taking NRA "funds" and using them to build and "improve" PUBLIC ranges they then "open to the public" a few days a week in the mid-morning and mid-afternoon when SO MANY "working" people and "young people" are able to GO SHOOTING and only under the "supervision" of "range officers" while come the WEEKENDS the PUBLIC range is "closed" as the little "club" and its "members" monopolize and play on to their hearts content their own little NRA and government-subsidized "playgrounds".
@@deeremeyer1749 are you "okay"? Or do you "need" a "safespace" and possible some "help"?
This might be a dumb question but what kind of rounds are they shooting?
+Jack Mccrady This event was a kind of intro to F-class and palma for our club. One of our admins is the 2013-14 national palma champion so he wanted to take us out and give us "Tactical" or PRS style shooters a taste for what he does and it was awesome. In Palma they shoot primarily .308 with 155 gr bullets or 223 also. You can google palma for more details. They shoot at 600-1000 yards with open sights using a sling for support (no bipod). F-class is not caliber specific but one of the most popular calibers is 7mm like the straight 284. They can use a bipod or a hi-end adjustable rest in f-class. It's a kind of open class if you will. FTR is the same but it's limited to .308 only. So it just depends on which of these disciplines you're asking about. Some specify the caliber and even bullet weight, others there is no caliber designation but your rifle can only weight a certain amount. It just depends. check out 6mmbr.com or accurateshooter.com for more info.
+Jack Mccrady demigodllc.com/articles/introduction-to-f-class-1000-yard-competition/
+Jack Mccrady www.6mmbr.com/palmabasics.html
+Long Range Shooters of Utah, LLC thank you very much I really appreciate it
You're correct. This was an into event so they allowed us to use muzzle brakes and 95% of use were first timers to this discipline. Sorry for any confusion.
I am really surprised that there are not hundreds of men competing for this competition. I get the feeling that precision shooting is big. Well, I guess it is not.
This was more of a practice match and wind clinic put on by one of our member to introduce us to F-class & Palma classes of shooting. Plus it was all the way out in Wendover which is a couple hours drive. Both of these gentlemen are on the US Long Range Shooting team. Eric is the 2013 & 2014 Palma National Champion. We're blessed to have them in our group.
I believe it,but dont believe it, if you get my drift ?
are you an NRA member? haha why does he keep asking everyone that?
Because that's a PUBLIC RANGE funded in part BY the NRA AND OWNED by U.S. CITIZENS and not the CIVILIANS who join the "CMP" and as an NRA-SANCTIONED COMPETITION UNDER NRA RULES ONLY NRA MEMBERS ARE PERMITTED TO PARTICIPATE. But the CMP lets Canadians and Australians and other "civilians" in and pretends that its "CMP-affiliated clubs" and the PUBLIC ranges they take over are "private" and off-limits to all things "public" and "civic" and the property of CITIZENS in the U.S. They only ask in this "public" TH-cam video so it NRA members who know the real story will think they're "playing by the rules" when in fact they flip the middle finger at the NRA and citizens at every opportunity and just love playing on their "private playgrounds" pretty much 100% funded, supplied and provided by the NRA and U.S. citizens and "taxpayer dollars".
They're all about "freedom" and "liberty" and "2nd Amendment Right". For THEM, anyway. Everybody else - including NRA members and those who know that about 90% of "CMP-created" events/classes are not only "unrecognized by" and "irrelevant" to the NRA but also are completely COUNTER to the "mission" of the NRA and the type of shooting and MARKSMANSHIP the NRA exists to help promote and enable and create for ANY CITIZEN WHO WANTS TO LEARN VALUABLE SKILLS THAT COULD ALLOW HE/SHE TO "DEFEND" HIS/HER COUNTRY OR SIMPLY THEIR "HOME" because there is no NRA "benchrest" or "Palma" or "F-class" bullshit "shooting" where its more about the "hardware" in the shooters hands or rather on his/her "rests" than the "software" between his/her ears.
And the reason you see so many "oddball" wildcats like a "7mm-300WM" when a 7mm Remington Magnum is pretty much a fucking "necked down" .300 Winchester Magnum shooting 7mm bullets is because in the foreign countries they like to go play in and many of them have "family" in, "military rifles" and rifles chambered for "military cartridges" are "banned". Especially if they happen to be "American" in origin. And yes, both 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum HAVE "military heritage" in the U.S. and since "American" calibers in "standard" units like inches offend their delicate "metric-loving" sensibilities and they vastly prefer to think of "6mm" instead of ".243" and "6.5mm" instead of ".264" and "7mm" instead of ".277" and pretty much "hate" anything ".30-caliber" because the "best" .30-calibers are MILITARY cartridges AND its way easier to "export" to their "families" back home "sporting" or "hunting" or "target" hardware and especially "metric" hardware and because exporting "military" and/or "American" hardware might attract unwanted "attention", they come up with all kinds of oddball "wildcats" too numerous to keep track of and all at least partially "metric" and usually with the "American" parts "abbreviated" (Winchester Magnum becomes "WM" and "Creedmoor" becomes "CM" etc etc etc - almost "metric" if you're "inclined" to see any letter and "M" behind a number and are slightly "dyslexic" or just STUPID and translate it to "something meters" ) so even the commercial, proprietary "SAAMI" cartridges and cases they "export" can end up being "adopted" by Lapua with Lapua "modifying" and "improving" them with some "significant" change like substituting a small primer for a large primer or removing the "stupid pointless belt from belted magnums" and THEN introducing the NEW CARTRIDGE AS THEIR VERY OWN "LAPUA WHATEVER".
Basically the U.S. is where Lapua "R&D" and "innovation" happens and a bunch of "Americans" and "friendly foreigners" do most of it importing foreign "arms related items" and using public citizen-owned ranges they keep the "public" off of except for maybe a couple hours on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday when "working Americans" and "young people" all have so much time to go shooting and that way "their" range stays "open to the public" and they "reserve" it for their own "play time"...I mean "events" and "competitions" and "matches" every weekend from sunrise Friday to sundown Sunday. That's when they're out there shooting "world records" and "long-range" groups and aggregates and scores and such in their own "special CMP events" the NRA doesn't recognize or even have rules for and therefore doesn't "allow" and you'll never find at "Camp Perry" (anymore at least lol!) or any other NRA "event" because "benchrest" is not "shooting" and "prone" doesn't include bipods and bags and mats and rests and the NRA has never promoted the use of "optics" or any other "crutch" as a way to become or become a better "marksman" since damned few "wars" or even "home defense" situations involve "engaging" an "enemy" or "threat" at "long distance" one minute and "close quarters" the next and "optics" just don't go from one to the other too damned well. Not to mention damned few wars are "dawn to dusk" and "weather permitting" and "sniping" isn't NEARLY as "common" in the real world as the F-class and ELR clowns think it is and NEVER against "civilians" hundreds or thousands of yards away just hanging out while a murderer "defending" his/her "home" gets all their "range gear" set up and gets their "range cart" up to the "firing line" and gets their dozens or hundreds of pounds of "gear" all ready and gets set up for...sighters.
That's how fucking "legitimate" of an organization the CMP is and how dedicated to "marksmanship" the "CMP-affiliated" clubs who play by "CMP" rules while ignoring or "modifying" or "amending" NRA rules really are. They think "sighters" are a fucking "right" and "marksmanship" is something that is "owed" rather than "earned".
"Are you an N.R.A. member?" grumble, stammer....no. WTF!!
Not near as fun as shooting steel targets at different ranges and different positions !