I'm glad that you showed up on my TH-cam algorithm radar because I have grown to trust your opinion on all things audio above all other TH-cam content providers. I'm using multiple pairs of vintage Polk Audio LSi9' s in my base layer of my 7.2.6 (seems to be playing in 7.2.4 most of the time) with 2 moderately sized SVS PB 1000 subs (one in front and one to the side) and six SVS prime satellite speakers bolted to my ceiling. I've got the tweeters in my base layer pretty much at ear level and pointed at the prime seating position. Honestly, music sounds better in my theater than even the best 2.1 rig I ever created. I do wish I had larger subwoofers for movies but it's not bad at all.
Thank you SO much for getting to the point and not dragging out the main subject to the point that I loose desire to watch! Great info and you have earned my subscription.
Makes sense - you’re creating a 180 degree bubble where sound matters the most. I have mine in the back but at a steep angle that makes a 210 degree bubble (living room limitations). After watching this, I understand why I prefer it over my other system which has speakers in the rear on the ceiling. The other system gives an eerie surround feel when sound just comes from those speakers but it’s not as spacious or cohesive. Others have also pointed that sound coming from above is actually the opposite of immersive as it alerts you every time you hear it.
That’s dumb because in reality life when I’m out & about and hear a plane flying over head guess what it does - my ears/ brain alerts me that there’s something occurring high over me 🤷♂️
I so agree, the best upgrade for my system was changing my small surrounds to a pair of pair of stage foldback speakers that I required, listening now to Pink Floyd Animals SACD 5.1……..Incredible.
The biggest bang for the buck is a 2nd subwoofer! It changed my whole listening experience. Sides were nice, but that 2nd sub was magic. The next best was a center channel that outperforms everything.
@@superslyko123 i tried googling that with no luck. Did you make the center speaker yourself by DIY with components from this Css audio? Is that a brand?
@@PEM-zt5rd Try again. Google, TH-cam, you're losing credibility. They're everywhere. I chose their improved crossover MTM speaker & simply put it on it's side.
@@superslyko123 I am building my own subs. I'm using dayton um 18's. I bought a rsl 12s and was extremely disappointed in it. The impact was next to 0. So I returned it and am building my own. What subs are you running and how is the impact? I thought about building all the rest as well. How is the css kit? Curious what was the benefit of 2 subs? I will say if you want impact do not buy rsl. They tried to blame my reciever so I bought a new one. Then when it was still trash I called them. They then no bs tried blaming my gear. I said wait your saying my brand new reciever is the problem. No, take it back I'm done. It's honestly weak and can't wait to finish building my 18's. I was going to build 2 um12's. Which I guarantee will outperform the rsl in a 1v1. I'd be curious to see by how much though. I decided to go w 18's instead though. I bought my surround sound speakers dirt cheap. I have polk towers and episode for the rest. Got the polks for 50 bucks and the 5 episodes for 30. Sounds phenomenal, I tried out Dirac which is pretty cool. Anyways take care and enjoy. Can't wait till my subs are done. Only got a little bit left.
I've got a 7.2.2 and I agree, the side surrounds are the most important. Case in point: In Top Gun-Maverick, when the CO says "Attention on deck" to introduce the Top Gun pilots to their new instructor, Maverick, there are jets that fly right to left and, once offscreen, they fly directly into the left side surround channel. The rear surrounds create a sense of envelopment, but they're more about diffuse, far-out ambience.
Fully agreed - good side speakers and placement leads to a much more headphone like impact in precision without putting a constraint on the soundstage if the dsp and alignment is done properly
my current setup has the same floor standing tower for all 5 main speakers - though the rear surrounds are small bookshelf speakers in the same product line. Moving the bookshelf speakers to the rear and replacing the sides with matching full towers gave a noticeable presence/size improvement over the 2-way bookshelves that had been serving as side surrounds. Like Gene said both for upmixed music and movies.
Others are saying center and they're right, but I know you're talking about strictly the "surround" speakers and you're right about that as they probably have most information in track compared to the rears and ceiling and probably closest to our ears. Honestly having 5 exact full range speakers was still my favorite movie experience. I had 5 Klipsch La Scalas and 4 subs. I'd go back to that any day if i could, or at least front 3 same full range LCR speakers. That's the key as the center is most important. These little horizontal speakers that are not even a quarter size of the mains L/R speakers in a lot of systems just doesn't cut it. A lot of people can get away with larger side surrounds vs a lot smaller rear and ceiling speakers and that's a big factor in all these little speakers being drowned out even with room correction.
Just upgraded to 7.1.4. Using in wall Triad Gold 4 Omni SE for surround and rear surround. Using Triad Silver Sat 9 for atmos. Front stage is Paradigm Studio V5 100 and CC690 that I've had for years. Very happy with the Triad Surround and Atmos additions to my Paradigms.
Gene - Thanks for a much needed video! Agree that surround sides (near rears) are the next important channel in immersive sound setup. In fact, they are placed directly feeding into listener's ears. Extremely effective. Media Room: Atmos 7.2.4 config - B&W 805D3 (L/R); HTM4D2 (C); Polk R30 (Sides); DefTech BP10 (Rears); B&W M-1 (4 X Atmos Heights); dual SVS SB2000 (LFE). Anthem AVM70 (Pre/Pro); Mark Levinson 533H (L/C/R); Anthem PVA7 (Bed Layer); Rotel RMB1555 (Atmos Heights). Considering upgrading the sides (Polk R30s) or swap with rears (TechDef BP10s)...however, sides are not dominant enough (and should not be) to warrant change at the moment. Another option is to swap out Sides and Rears with 4 X KEF Q100s (bookshelf) to match surround timbre.
Got a 5.2.4 system. Listening to this video makes me wanna try a 7.2.4 even more now. My processor has the channels to do it. Just need to get a 2 channel amp and some speakers.
Just a thought... How about a series where you review people's home theater's and do like a audioholics seal of approval or something. Again just a thought. Keep up the amazing videos . Your advice has helped me so much of the Years
I am running 5.2.4 in my apartment given I have limited space so I have no room for rear speakers. So I placed a better bookshelf now for my sides instead. I cant wait to try later tonight. Thanks Gene.
I'm running a 5.1 channel system. I want to update to 5.2 later down the road and then 7.2.4 as the holy grail lmao. I will say it's more than enough in my tiny 10 ft room and the surround sound is phenomenal. I have 2 1961 arendal speakers, they're pretty sweet.
My 7.2.4 theater has a speaker layout pretty much identical to the one you showed. My surrounds are 2.5 way speakers using four Dynaudio high powered drivers with 2.5 inch voice coils and Dynaudio D28 AF tweeters. These used to be my location monitors for outside broadcasts. Since this is a three row, 9 seat room, the surrounds are just behind the second row. The MLP is the center second row. This works very well. The rears a are active bi-amp using KEF and Dynaudio drivers. These are my TL monitors from my old room from Grand Forks ND. The bass lines were rebuilt in 2005. The ceiling speakers are four sealed Mark Audio full range drivers in sealed enclosures. They are absolutely ideal ceiling speakers. I agree the sense of spaciousness with the Dolby up mixer is amazing. I have just received my first audio only BD Atmos recording. It is on DGG and a recording of the new organ of St. Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna. It is a true Atmos recoding and NOT upmixed as most are. It is a true revelations and you are literally transported into the Cathedral space.
Terrific video Gene, Thank you. As you said here, I feel the same that the front stage speakers (LCR), in a theater, listening space, are of utmost importance, but also have to agree that out of all the surrounds the sides should receive some special attention, especially for listening to music. I'm running a 7.2.4 and after some experimentation, (using elevation, not in-ceiling) my side surrounds are now located 2 feet above ear height and just slightly behind the MLP. Like you, I listen to a lot of music, both stereo, and multi-channel and prefer Auro 3D for any content that's streamed or on a disc that's recorded, mixed and mastered utilizing 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel sound. As for just 2 channel recordings, (as per your suggestion in a past video), I prefer up-mixing using Dolby Surround instead of DTS Neural:X or Auro 3D.
Do you feel like you’re missing anything with your surrounds slightly behind the MLP as opposed to slightly in front of the MLP like gene suggests in the video?
I have a Marantz Sr-7012 receiver with a Klipsch Reference system 5.3.4 and I use the Klipsch R 52-c center channel speakers for my top height, rear height and rear side surrounds and the center channel is a Klipsch RP450-c which is a larger center channel which is elevated to ear height. The 2 subwoofers are SVS SB-3000 and one is a SVS SB1000. I believe two of the best movies to experience the great surround effects are Top Gun Maverick and Gravity. The 52-C makes a great surround speaker!
I've learnt so much from you. Thank you for your channel and all the tremendous knowledge you share. I have a 7.2.4 B&W speaker configuration driven by a Denon AVR-X8500HA in my living room. In my home theater I have a 7.1.4 Wharfdale layout with a REL sub, driven by a Marantz SR6015. Obviously room acoustics play a major role and I find the home theater setup more expressive and perfect for movie nights. Both of my layouts were largely influenced by your advice and recommendations. Than you Gene.
I think I'm hearing "Take care of the Bed Layer 1st" message... I agree. " Identical" IS essential. Build as you can afford it, secure the base before going vertical. If not identical, & and you can't wait... buy the exact same line at least for all its sizes. Match drivers. THX Gene.
totally agree 👍 the real new dimension with all this new Atmos and even in DD+ are the side speakers ! im running classic 7.2 setup all equal speakers but rear Bipole .
I feel this video in my soul. I have B&W 683S2 fronts, and HTM61S2 (Matching Large Center) and I originally purchased the B&W 686 S2 bookshelf speakers as side surrounds to run my 5.4.4 ATMOS setup in my room. A few years later after they discontinued the 68X S2 line for the newer and current 600 Series, I was disappointed in myself for not building a 7ch B&W 68X S2 system. However, the audio gods smiled on me shortly after by messaging my phone direct from the Audio Father to let me know that a pair of B&W 684 S2s (Little brother tower to my fronts), were available on OfferUp and at a steal of a price ($400/pr). These bad boys were mint, owned by someone who really took care of his equipment. I wasted no time and purchased them to use as my side surrounds and moved the 686's to the rear surround spots. These little towers really upped my surround immersion, and having all matched set base sound plain speakers is really something extra ordinary. Gene speaks facts!!
I recently integrated two active speakers (Nubert nuPro A-20) I still had from an older desktop setup into the main system, bringing it from pure stereo to 4.0. Both my wife and I are blown away by the immersion this brought to movies and TV shows. I had hoped and anticipated that much...What I didn't anticipate was the added bass output, that those brought. In our current living situation using a sub sadly isn't possible. But those two punch so deep and Audyssey integrated them so well, I am really not missing much. I don't use them for Music though, as their electrical design is slightly flawed, giving them a high noise floor.
I agree, I have three rows and am putting in three side speaker pairs, one for each row. The sides are very similar to the mains just smaller CBT line arrays. I'm still batting around ideas about what to build for the rear speakers. The back row is pretty much against the back wall so that doesn't make it easy. Maybe inverted ground plane CBT's? That might work. At one point I was thinking of that for the sides but that would have caused the height to vary relative to the seating rows so I opted for full CBT's mounted at constant height relative to the seat rows. For the rear speakers however an inverted ground plane might work.
Great video. Good info. Regarding subs, I try to be careful to not just generalize the benefit of multiple subs. I’ve had rooms (my own!), where two subs in different locations created a null in response. We ended up placing the two subs directly beside each other…at which point I sold both and got one bigger sub! But I have a system going in now where the response with two huge subs was poor at the listening position…until we moved them high on the wall (unseen behind a screenwall on a shelf that could hold King Kong). But still a larger than desirable null at the main listening position (crazy how often this is the case). We added two large JL in-wall subs in the back and our in room response really flattened out. It was a good lesson to not just declare two subs is always better. It is almost always better. But you should be measuring, modeling, or listening and testing if possible to truly determine what kind of bass support and where in the room it is needed.
I use a 9.2 setup in my home theater (Onkyo TX-NR1030, Panasonic DP-UB9000, Optoma UHD60 4K projected on a 92" screen). However, that setup is a conventional 7.2 arrangement that adds two "height" speakers in the front that are mounted near the ceiling. That provides a vary expansive soundstage. In addition, some receivers that provide for height speakers have an adjustable parameter called "dialog lift" where a selectable amount of front left and right audio in the range of human vocals can be fed to the height speakers. This really helps place the dialog in the screen as opposed to the main LCR speakers which are at ear level. I liked the arrangement so much that I did the same in my den AV system. The home theater has a suspended acoustic tile ceiling so ceiling mounted Atmos speakers could be added (would require a new receiver) but I am satisfied with the current arrangement and have no plans to do so. Another benefit is that the height speaker outputs can be switched to "second program" to feed 2 ch stereo to patio speakers (requires a speaker switch also).
My current situation has me limited to a 3.1 for now, but I have a 7.1 system & can agree that rears & sides are extremely important for immersion/surround. A 2.1 or 3.1 are great for generic low cost systems, but they lack the fullness of a full 7.1. Honestly, I don't need Atmos & would be good w/ a 7.2 setup as bass is 33% of your overall sound imo.
Thanks Gene! So I'm running a 7.4.4 system...I think you're spot on if you're on the main row...in my case the rear surrounds on rear/2nd row sounds just as good, if not better. Especially, if you have enough power going to each one of them... I'm running the Monoprice Class D, 8x200w amplifier...
Can’t remember the video you asked about our systems so, I’ll write it here. I have 3 surround systems. Right or wrong I wanted to try for the best Surround and stereo in 1. So, my best system includes a Denon AVR-X6300H for the 2020 B&W HTM71 S2 Center, and 1999, Canadian made (pre Klipsch ownership) Energy C-2HB-1 surround and 1999 Energy indoor/outdoor surround backs. Then a 2021 Moon ACE in bypass mode, allowing use of the Denon EQ with Audyssey off after initial Audyssey setup, driving L & R 2020 B&W 702 S2 fronts and a 1999 Energy Encore-8 Sub. I mostly stream my music. For streaming in stereo (not a fan of Dolby ATMOS) I use Qobuz from my IPad Pro and iPhone Pro to a 2022 ifi micro iDSD Signature DAC to the Denon and back through the Moon for front channels only. For my large CD library, I get great sound from a decent Sony BlueRay player with Super CD. I also have a Sony DVP-S7000 but, the new player has way better sound. For me, with the addition of the Moon, I am super happy with the surround and the 702s for stereo. Of course, I have Apple TV and can stream all of my Apple Music as well. BTW, the Moon Ace is a streamer and the reason for getting the ACE but, I prefer using the EQ in the Denon where the ACE does not have an EQ. Lastly, I wish I would have known about your sight sooner. I will admit that I probably could have purchased a set of B&W 705 S2s for my surround side speakers with the money I’ve spent with audioQuest products between cables and portable DACs. All of the portable dacs have failed and several audio cables have shorted in addition to the wasted money overall.
I think the side channels are crucial if you have an odd-shaped room (front left/right). Also, when watching content with 2.1 audio, it helps to have the speakers there to hear the dialogue better.
Well Gene I'm running a 25.8.16 channel setup. I have a Yamaha RX-A8A running half the system and a Marantz Cinema 50 running the other half. My speakers are all 2ohm. I have eco mode enabled on both receivers and I have the 4 ohm switch enabled on both receivers on all channels. I'm running YPAO, Audyssey, and Dirac all simultaneously. However I like to re-run YPAO after for good measure to really dial it all in. Sounds amazing and I save a lot of money on my electric bill.
I certainly agree about the side surrounds, but question putting their quality close to LCR's. My understanding is that, in general, there is very little content below 100 hz or above ~10,000 hz sent to the surround channels.
Bought my first surround speaker system from a friend and yeah realised how important the center is cause the jamo s81 was just ”ok” so have to def upgrade that one and in time upgrade the front speakers and put the front canton mx to the sides and have 7.1 , the heco 12 inch sub im more then happy with. God damn already after two weeks im thinking about upgrading This will turn out expensive just like my Photography passion 😂
Center #1.. We mix most dialogue into it. But yeah the sides give you the most depth. I noticed this years ago when we first switched mixing 5.1 to 7.1.. now we do 7.2.4
If the sides in the back provide depth like you said then it only follows logical sense for the front sides (aka front wides) to do the same up front But sadly many people, and people making content choose to ignore them -sigh-
The surrounds are the most important surrounds, lol. My rear surrounds don't do nearly as much as the surrounds. I run 6 towers (2 RP8000s and 4 RP5000s) and an RP504C center. I have a set of RP600Ms and just got the Cinema 30 so I'm expanding to 9.3.4 this weekend. Can't wait!
The sub(s), are the most important🙊 There is nothing more anoying than a lack in the bottom end... And...for the best sound, all speakers should be exactly the same as you said. (My layout: tower LCR and surroun rear. Bookshelf variant of towers for surround and 4 atmos. 3 subs. Gues it is 6.1 (3).4? External power for all towers🤪
The House of Sound home theatre room in NYC has 16 subs (all Sonus Faber Arena S15). 10 in the front, with 6 in the rear. All low frequencies around and above the room are directed to the subs. They have proven that low frequencies are not omni-directional. If you want a truly immersive and visceral experience, you need more subs.
sides would be also cus more content uses them. 5.1 is basically the minimum surround format. not all movies do 7.1 "es" or "ex" mixes when talking older content. that side my 4 surrounds are all the same speaker and if they get upgraded, likely do all 4 at once. but if you have a 5.1 now and add 2 more then yeah get better speakers to make the new side surrounds, and depreciate your current ones to the rears.
i have a living room setup I have a semi open room. When I had a 5.1 system my back surrounds were bookshelf speakers high up on the back wall on each end of couch. couch about 4 feet from back wall. When I went atmos I put in in wall surrounds in back wall and significantly lowered them at same time I added top front top rear in ceiling speakers. In most cases I think my setup is better that I have my surrounds behind in a 5.1.4 . If my surrounds were to the side when something was supposed to be happening behind me I would have no speaker also I would have in my opinion less envelopment overall beacause my soundstage would stop at sofa. By placing behind me I get that rear envelopment and I still retain the left right seperation. Having said that if I had sidewalls I would have side and rear surround. but in my opinion with only one set of surrounds its more useful to place them at rear you still get side to side but you retain more envelopment and rear effects if any.
Wrong place for a centre speaker. Putting it an enclosure will change the sound. Diffraction and gain are affected, the speaker will sound muddy. Protect from dust, rediculous, like any piece of furniture just dust it. You need to look at the videos and articles on speaker placement.
Good morning Gene. I agree the side speakers are underrated with a cape on them; I have a 5.2.2 setup, and do you think I should keep it as a 7.2, or 5.2.2? I know you hear this same question for years; I value your opinion.
In my surround system I have two left and two right side surrounds,two towards the front and two towards the side plus two back speakers plus five 12 inch powered subs !
Thank you Gene for the informative video! I have a Klipsch Synergy 7.1 surround sound system with a Yamaha 7.2 A/V receiver. My sub is the Klipsch down firing SW-450 I find using the YAPO within my Yamaha receiver comes in useful. I purchased both in 2010, but they are both sounding as good as the day of purchase...knock on wood.
Interesting. This is the first and only person I've ever heard say they like the Atmos & DTS music up mixers better than Auro 3D. I'm currently in the process of building a dedicated home theater/listening room that will be a 7.4.6 and am anxious to hear which format I like best.
I'm format agnostic but I go with what sounds beet based in content. In music that doesn't have a lot of decorrelated info Auro sounds better to me (ie. Close mic jack music recorded in a small venue). For mostly everything else, the DSU is far superior. See:th-cam.com/video/AayO583aY6A/w-d-xo.html
@Audioholics --- What would 10.4.8 sound like? Would any movies even be able to use that configuration? Or 12.6.10? And what about players/streamers and receivers/processors, would they be able to handle that many channels?
Interesting. Side channels. I understand positioning them correctly is important. However, when I put my ears next to speakers other than the Center, very little sound comes out of them. Only sporadic effect sounds (high pitch dings, bangs, shhhh, etc noises) heard now and then. That's why I bought into a number of explanations advising surround speakers do not need to be super great.
It really depends on content and how mastered. I agree with films, the sides are typically used for sound effects. However, for immersive audio (e.g. orchestral/choral, live concerts, SACD, multichannel DSD, DVD/A, BDA, etc), that's where it really matters - all bed layer channels are essentially always on! I will agree with Gene that the rears are often used for large concert reverb effects whereas the sides actually have instruments/vocals. FYI - if you play converted 4 channel "quadrphonic" recordings from the 1970's to SACD, the sound comes out on L/R and the 2 sides - nothing in the rear surrounds.
Hi Gene - since you have a 9.4.4 system, you should do a video from most important surround all the way to least important so we know which channels to really prioritize and in what order. (Hard Time deciding between rears vs wides or front height vs top front vs top middle, etc)
If Gene is saying side surrounds are important because of the depth they add to the back set of speakers then it makes sense that front sides (or front wides as they are more better known) would do the same for front set of speakers by adding more depth and dimension to bridge gap between side surrounds and Mains
I’m using Klipsch reference 2 front and rear towers and it’s really Big difference with the sound in your rear channel is more open Clear and solid sound
I have a 5.3.2 set up my seating is close to the wall I don't have the space to have rears in my set up however I have a pair of paradigm bipolars that are mounted on the rear wall but somewhat angled towards my listening position and do get reflections based on the multi angles but I think it ads a lot of spaciousness to my listing making the environment sound a lot larger may be I should try to get them beside me but I have a open wall to one side. I have changed mains and kept those paradigms they sound rather good
Hello Gene, thank you for the great info. I have a set up that can be configured 5.2.4 or 7.2.2. In your opinion, which is better for immersive movie watching. Mind you that the two ceiling rear atmos is what would be converted to rears for bed layer in the 7.2.2. The rears would not be at ear level.
What should we look for when trying to match speakers or tone match speakers and what do we look at on spec sheets and what do the spec sheets tell us ?
@@ericshutter5305 . Unless you are sat off axis there really is no need for a centre channel and a phantom channel gives the best synergy unless you’re using three identical speakers. Nearly all centre channel speakers have awful off axis response due to the driver placement.
Hey Gene the Front Wides channels are essentially the equivalent of the Side surrounds except they are up front but for whatever reason it seems like they get ignored way too much I’d easily sacrifice having 6 height channels and go with 4 of it means I can have front wide channels
what are your thoughts on bi /di pol I have def tech bp2002 towers clr 3000 center triad gold for my wide def tech bipolar side surround and large book shelf speakers in the rear, def tech book shelf in front height and def tech xtr 40 height middle 9.6.4 based on your reviews i got the Marantz 8015 and added an amp for the wide channel most of my speakers are bit older but still kicks nice i'm fairly new at this and have swopping out speakers that i can afford ,
Appreciate the knowledge and based on this video I have subscribed. I have spent quite a bit on LCR but sadly I admit I have skimped on my surrounds and rears. Any recommendations of rears and surrounds in the lower to midrange budgets?
One thing I would advise against is using towers for your surrounds. I had a pair of Boston Horizons kicking around and decided to give it a try. The bass is weak, and the mid/treble is at the correct height. Well it seems like they're just tuned incorrectly to be used for surrounds. It was a good thought, but didn't work out.
I would say it depends. I run SVS and have the prime towers as surrounds (sides and rears) and it does an incredible job. Those towers are matched to the three ultras I have for LCR. The timbre match makes a big difference. I can run my bed lower at the same crossover because I have all towers. It’s simply a more cohesive configuration, IMO.
@andrew jackson If your LCR are different make from those BA towers (that you used as surrounds) IME lack of timber match is a recipe for disappointment.
I find myself in a bit of a predicament and hope you can offer assistance. This is my inaugural attempt at building a setup, and I've acquired the T2+&C2+ components. Unfortunately, Emotiva has discontinued the B's, leaving me in need of rear speakers to finalize my 5.1 configuration. As you may be aware, the Emotivas boast ribbon tweeters, and I desire a consistent sound experience all around. While it's commonly suggested that side speakers can be budget-friendly, I'm keen on capturing every detail, even on the sides. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
Hello Gene. My side surrounds are floorstanding speakers that match my fronts. Unfortunately my room doesnt allow me to put speakers behind me. My couch is a foot from the back wall. Im using in ceiling speakers directly above me for rear surounds. If I add a pair of the martin logan fx2 behind my seating position would it be worth the investment? If I did this I would use a splitter and utilize 2 sets of speakers for my rear surrounds
Hi Gene, what if for example your using two rows of seats in your home theater, what inputs on your Marantz AV10 would you then use for an additional set of side surounds for say a 9.2.4 Atmos set up? Would the additional side surrounds be used as "FRONT WIDES" as inputs on the Marantz AV10?
Hi, Gene. Excellent video, thank you so much for the info! Grimani says surrounds should be at 100 degrees while my understanding is that you’re recommending 80 degrees for optimal placement (for a single row), have your views changed on the subject over the last two years or do you still believe 80 degrees is ideal? Thanks!!
It depends on which surround speakers you are referring to and also your room layout and restrictions. I don't hold strict to exact angles on surround speakers as it's often an impossible task to do in real rooms and we have the ability to digitally delay and EQ to help improve performance for non-optimally placed speakers to some degree. I really like my side channels lined up with my main listening row as I feel the lateralization of sound is very important. IF you have multiple rows, you can use 2 sets of side channels or place 1 set between rows IF your processor doesn't support dual side channels. I lean towards optimizing the most important row and setting my speaker positions accordingly.
Thank you so much for covering this topic! Very helpful. I have a 5.2.4 setup and might go to 7.2.4 and I’m curious - do you think the side or back speakers should receive the same amount of external amplification ideally as my LCRs 4 ohm > 90 sensitivity if they are matching 4 ohm > 90 sensitivity but bookshelf speakers (all are the new Martin Logan Motion XT loudspeakers, F200, C100, B100) and go with a 7 channel continuous 250W @4 ohms amp for all 7 bed layers with my Marantz Cinema 40 powering the 4 Atmos speakers or is an 11 channels LCR 250W @ 4 ohms with all effects speakers 150W @ 4 ohms sufficient? I’ve never purchased an external amp before but feel I need them with my Marantz Cinema 40 in combo with these 4ohm Martin Logan Motion XT speakers bed speakers. My Atmos speakers are 8 ohm Triad Silver 9 - amiable 45 degree baffle in ceiling speakers. I might move to separates / a preprocesser (thinking Anthem) one day so I thought maybe having the 11 channel would be good and also offer the same sound signature across all speakers instead of delegating the Marantz internal amps to the height speakers? Or is the lower power 150W effects stereo amps on a 11 amp undesirable for the B100’s over a 250W all 7 channel driven amp? Bottom line - how much power do surrounds really need? Thank you in advance for your help / thoughts! -Andy
Hey Gene, one love your videos, and two have a quick question on this older video you did. Do you believe 821’s will be measurable difference vs the 760’s? Looking to get my sides to go with my 831R but wondering if it’s worth stepping up for the sides
What are the pros and cons of matching the back channels speakers to the front channels speakers in a 7.2.2 setup? I’m building a home theater based on the Wharfedale EVO speakers and got the EVO 4.2 bookshelves for L/R front, the 4.C for center, and the 4.S for sides. Then I was considering the EVO 4.1 for L/R back but found the EVO 4.2 on sale for just $50 more. Would that be a good set up with 4 EVO 4.2s FR, FL, BR, and BL or would I be better of with the EVO 4.1 for back channels?
Is this height ceiling speaker plan set up complimentary for 3D Auro....issue i have with atmos ceiling speakers are aimed at floor? atmos content is rather no so good hence the use of 3D auro upmixing and having 2 front hieght mounted on wall angled at 30 deg to mlp. Still wish there was more discuasion on height surround speakers that have narrow direct.dispersion....
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I'm glad that you showed up on my TH-cam algorithm radar because I have grown to trust your opinion on all things audio above all other TH-cam content providers.
I'm using multiple pairs of vintage Polk Audio LSi9' s in my base layer of my 7.2.6 (seems to be playing in 7.2.4 most of the time) with 2 moderately sized SVS PB 1000 subs (one in front and one to the side) and six SVS prime satellite speakers bolted to my ceiling.
I've got the tweeters in my base layer pretty much at ear level and pointed at the prime seating position. Honestly, music sounds better in my theater than even the best 2.1 rig I ever created.
I do wish I had larger subwoofers for movies but it's not bad at all.
Thank you SO much for getting to the point and not dragging out the main subject to the point that I loose desire to watch! Great info and you have earned my subscription.
I never had side channels until about 2 years ago. Using SVS Prime Elevations. It really made a huge difference.
Makes sense - you’re creating a 180 degree bubble where sound matters the most. I have mine in the back but at a steep angle that makes a 210 degree bubble (living room limitations). After watching this, I understand why I prefer it over my other system which has speakers in the rear on the ceiling. The other system gives an eerie surround feel when sound just comes from those speakers but it’s not as spacious or cohesive.
Others have also pointed that sound coming from above is actually the opposite of immersive as it alerts you every time you hear it.
That’s dumb because in reality life when I’m out & about and hear a plane flying over head guess what it does - my ears/ brain alerts me that there’s something occurring high over me 🤷♂️
You totally right side channel surround is the cherry on top of the cake on a Home Theater set up
I so agree, the best upgrade for my system was changing my small surrounds to a pair of pair of stage foldback speakers that I required, listening now to Pink Floyd Animals SACD 5.1……..Incredible.
I love Andor as well. The audio mix is just next level awesome
The biggest bang for the buck is a 2nd subwoofer! It changed my whole listening experience. Sides were nice, but that 2nd sub was magic. The next best was a center channel that outperforms everything.
Nice input my man... what center speaker did you go for?
I did the DIY favorite. CSS audio top the line. Fantastic.
@@superslyko123 i tried googling that with no luck. Did you make the center speaker yourself by DIY with components from this Css audio? Is that a brand?
@@PEM-zt5rd Try again. Google, TH-cam, you're losing credibility. They're everywhere. I chose their improved crossover MTM speaker & simply put it on it's side.
@@superslyko123 I am building my own subs. I'm using dayton um 18's. I bought a rsl 12s and was extremely disappointed in it. The impact was next to 0. So I returned it and am building my own. What subs are you running and how is the impact? I thought about building all the rest as well. How is the css kit? Curious what was the benefit of 2 subs? I will say if you want impact do not buy rsl. They tried to blame my reciever so I bought a new one. Then when it was still trash I called them. They then no bs tried blaming my gear. I said wait your saying my brand new reciever is the problem. No, take it back I'm done. It's honestly weak and can't wait to finish building my 18's. I was going to build 2 um12's. Which I guarantee will outperform the rsl in a 1v1. I'd be curious to see by how much though. I decided to go w 18's instead though. I bought my surround sound speakers dirt cheap. I have polk towers and episode for the rest. Got the polks for 50 bucks and the 5 episodes for 30. Sounds phenomenal, I tried out Dirac which is pretty cool. Anyways take care and enjoy. Can't wait till my subs are done. Only got a little bit left.
I agree, My L&R are large towers and side surrounds are the next size down tower in the same series.
I've got a 7.2.2 and I agree, the side surrounds are the most important. Case in point: In Top Gun-Maverick, when the CO says "Attention on deck" to introduce the Top Gun pilots to their new instructor, Maverick, there are jets that fly right to left and, once offscreen, they fly directly into the left side surround channel. The rear surrounds create a sense of envelopment, but they're more about diffuse, far-out ambience.
Just wondering where your side surrounds are placed based on you MLP? Are they slightly in front of MLP, directly to the side, or slightly behind MLP?
Fully agreed - good side speakers and placement leads to a much more headphone like impact in precision without putting a constraint on the soundstage if the dsp and alignment is done properly
my current setup has the same floor standing tower for all 5 main speakers - though the rear surrounds are small bookshelf speakers in the same product line. Moving the bookshelf speakers to the rear and replacing the sides with matching full towers gave a noticeable presence/size improvement over the 2-way bookshelves that had been serving as side surrounds. Like Gene said both for upmixed music and movies.
Others are saying center and they're right, but I know you're talking about strictly the "surround" speakers and you're right about that as they probably have most information in track compared to the rears and ceiling and probably closest to our ears. Honestly having 5 exact full range speakers was still my favorite movie experience. I had 5 Klipsch La Scalas and 4 subs. I'd go back to that any day if i could, or at least front 3 same full range LCR speakers. That's the key as the center is most important. These little horizontal speakers that are not even a quarter size of the mains L/R speakers in a lot of systems just doesn't cut it. A lot of people can get away with larger side surrounds vs a lot smaller rear and ceiling speakers and that's a big factor in all these little speakers being drowned out even with room correction.
Just upgraded to 7.1.4. Using in wall Triad Gold 4 Omni SE for surround and rear surround. Using Triad Silver Sat 9 for atmos. Front stage is Paradigm Studio V5 100 and CC690 that I've had for years. Very happy with the Triad Surround and Atmos additions to my Paradigms.
Gene - Thanks for a much needed video! Agree that surround sides (near rears) are the next important channel in immersive sound setup. In fact, they are placed directly feeding into listener's ears. Extremely effective.
Media Room: Atmos 7.2.4 config - B&W 805D3 (L/R); HTM4D2 (C); Polk R30 (Sides); DefTech BP10 (Rears); B&W M-1 (4 X Atmos Heights); dual SVS SB2000 (LFE). Anthem AVM70 (Pre/Pro); Mark Levinson 533H (L/C/R); Anthem PVA7 (Bed Layer); Rotel RMB1555 (Atmos Heights). Considering upgrading the sides (Polk R30s) or swap with rears (TechDef BP10s)...however, sides are not dominant enough (and should not be) to warrant change at the moment. Another option is to swap out Sides and Rears with 4 X KEF Q100s (bookshelf) to match surround timbre.
HI STILL USING MY OLD THX BOSTON 555 575 STILL SOUNDS GREAT
Got a 5.2.4 system. Listening to this video makes me wanna try a 7.2.4 even more now. My processor has the channels to do it. Just need to get a 2 channel amp and some speakers.
Totally agree, the side surrounds also enhances the stereo wide with upmixed stereo soundsources
Just a thought...
How about a series where you review people's home theater's and do like a audioholics seal of approval or something. Again just a thought. Keep up the amazing videos . Your advice has helped me so much of the Years
that would be cool
Great idea. A bit like reviews of people's PC setups at home.
I am running 5.2.4 in my apartment given I have limited space so I have no room for rear speakers. So I placed a better bookshelf now for my sides instead. I cant wait to try later tonight. Thanks Gene.
I'm running a 5.1 channel system. I want to update to 5.2 later down the road and then 7.2.4 as the holy grail lmao. I will say it's more than enough in my tiny 10 ft room and the surround sound is phenomenal. I have 2 1961 arendal speakers, they're pretty sweet.
My 7.2.4 theater has a speaker layout pretty much identical to the one you showed. My surrounds are 2.5 way speakers using four Dynaudio high powered drivers with 2.5 inch voice coils and Dynaudio D28 AF tweeters. These used to be my location monitors for outside broadcasts. Since this is a three row, 9 seat room, the surrounds are just behind the second row. The MLP is the center second row. This works very well. The rears a are active bi-amp using KEF and Dynaudio drivers. These are my TL monitors from my old room from Grand Forks ND. The bass lines were rebuilt in 2005. The ceiling speakers are four sealed Mark Audio full range drivers in sealed enclosures. They are absolutely ideal ceiling speakers. I agree the sense of spaciousness with the Dolby up mixer is amazing. I have just received my first audio only BD Atmos recording. It is on DGG and a recording of the new organ of St. Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna. It is a true Atmos recoding and NOT upmixed as most are. It is a true revelations and you are literally transported into the Cathedral space.
Terrific video Gene, Thank you. As you said here, I feel the same that the front stage speakers (LCR), in a theater, listening space, are of utmost importance, but also have to agree that out of all the surrounds the sides should receive some special attention, especially for listening to music. I'm running a 7.2.4 and after some experimentation, (using elevation, not in-ceiling) my side surrounds are now located 2 feet above ear height and just slightly behind the MLP. Like you, I listen to a lot of music, both stereo, and multi-channel and prefer Auro 3D for any content that's streamed or on a disc that's recorded, mixed and mastered utilizing 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel sound. As for just 2 channel recordings, (as per your suggestion in a past video), I prefer up-mixing using Dolby Surround instead of DTS Neural:X or Auro 3D.
Do you feel like you’re missing anything with your surrounds slightly behind the MLP as opposed to slightly in front of the MLP like gene suggests in the video?
I have a Marantz Sr-7012 receiver with a Klipsch Reference system 5.3.4 and I use the Klipsch R 52-c center channel speakers for my top height, rear height and rear side surrounds and the center channel is a Klipsch RP450-c which is a larger center channel which is elevated to ear height. The 2 subwoofers are SVS SB-3000 and one is a SVS SB1000. I believe two of the best movies to experience the great surround effects are Top Gun Maverick and Gravity. The 52-C makes a great surround speaker!
I've learnt so much from you. Thank you for your channel and all the tremendous knowledge you share.
I have a 7.2.4 B&W speaker configuration driven by a Denon AVR-X8500HA in my living room. In my home theater I have a 7.1.4 Wharfdale layout with a REL sub, driven by a Marantz SR6015. Obviously room acoustics play a major role and I find the home theater setup more expressive and perfect for movie nights.
Both of my layouts were largely influenced by your advice and recommendations. Than you Gene.
I think I'm hearing "Take care of the Bed Layer 1st" message... I agree. " Identical" IS essential. Build as you can afford it, secure the base before going vertical. If not identical, & and you can't wait... buy the exact same line at least for all its sizes. Match drivers.
THX Gene.
totally agree 👍 the real new dimension with all this new Atmos and even in DD+ are the side speakers ! im running classic 7.2 setup all equal speakers but rear Bipole .
I'm still rocking 5.1 with some old Mission bipoles i just picked up, 20+ years old and they still sound amazing.
I enjoyed the 4 second stare at the end of the video.
I feel this video in my soul. I have B&W 683S2 fronts, and HTM61S2 (Matching Large Center) and I originally purchased the B&W 686 S2 bookshelf speakers as side surrounds to run my 5.4.4 ATMOS setup in my room. A few years later after they discontinued the 68X S2 line for the newer and current 600 Series, I was disappointed in myself for not building a 7ch B&W 68X S2 system. However, the audio gods smiled on me shortly after by messaging my phone direct from the Audio Father to let me know that a pair of B&W 684 S2s (Little brother tower to my fronts), were available on OfferUp and at a steal of a price ($400/pr). These bad boys were mint, owned by someone who really took care of his equipment. I wasted no time and purchased them to use as my side surrounds and moved the 686's to the rear surround spots. These little towers really upped my surround immersion, and having all matched set base sound plain speakers is really something extra ordinary. Gene speaks facts!!
I recently integrated two active speakers (Nubert nuPro A-20) I still had from an older desktop setup into the main system, bringing it from pure stereo to 4.0. Both my wife and I are blown away by the immersion this brought to movies and TV shows.
I had hoped and anticipated that much...What I didn't anticipate was the added bass output, that those brought. In our current living situation using a sub sadly isn't possible. But those two punch so deep and Audyssey integrated them so well, I am really not missing much.
I don't use them for Music though, as their electrical design is slightly flawed, giving them a high noise floor.
I agree, I have three rows and am putting in three side speaker pairs, one for each row. The sides are very similar to the mains just smaller CBT line arrays. I'm still batting around ideas about what to build for the rear speakers.
The back row is pretty much against the back wall so that doesn't make it easy. Maybe inverted ground plane CBT's? That might work. At one point I was thinking of that for the sides but that would have caused the height to vary relative to the seating rows so I opted for full CBT's mounted at constant height relative to the seat rows. For the rear speakers however an inverted ground plane might work.
As someone new to the speaker game - I currently run a 3.1 and am looking to add and upgrade. Very helpful video.
Great video. Good info. Regarding subs, I try to be careful to not just generalize the benefit of multiple subs. I’ve had rooms (my own!), where two subs in different locations created a null in response. We ended up placing the two subs directly beside each other…at which point I sold both and got one bigger sub! But I have a system going in now where the response with two huge subs was poor at the listening position…until we moved them high on the wall (unseen behind a screenwall on a shelf that could hold King Kong). But still a larger than desirable null at the main listening position (crazy how often this is the case). We added two large JL in-wall subs in the back and our in room response really flattened out. It was a good lesson to not just declare two subs is always better. It is almost always better. But you should be measuring, modeling, or listening and testing if possible to truly determine what kind of bass support and where in the room it is needed.
I use a 9.2 setup in my home theater (Onkyo TX-NR1030, Panasonic DP-UB9000, Optoma UHD60 4K projected on a 92" screen). However, that setup is a conventional 7.2 arrangement that adds two "height" speakers in the front that are mounted near the ceiling. That provides a vary expansive soundstage. In addition, some receivers that provide for height speakers have an adjustable parameter called "dialog lift" where a selectable amount of front left and right audio in the range of human vocals can be fed to the height speakers. This really helps place the dialog in the screen as opposed to the main LCR speakers which are at ear level. I liked the arrangement so much that I did the same in my den AV system. The home theater has a suspended acoustic tile ceiling so ceiling mounted Atmos speakers could be added (would require a new receiver) but I am satisfied with the current arrangement and have no plans to do so. Another benefit is that the height speaker outputs can be switched to "second program" to feed 2 ch stereo to patio speakers (requires a speaker switch also).
Gene.. I fully agree your vie about the surrounds.. same importance tobe given as we give toLCR..multi ch. music listening will prove this..
My current situation has me limited to a 3.1 for now, but I have a 7.1 system & can agree that rears & sides are extremely important for immersion/surround. A 2.1 or 3.1 are great for generic low cost systems, but they lack the fullness of a full 7.1. Honestly, I don't need Atmos & would be good w/ a 7.2 setup as bass is 33% of your overall sound imo.
Thanks Gene! So I'm running a 7.4.4 system...I think you're spot on if you're on the main row...in my case the rear surrounds on rear/2nd row sounds just as good, if not better.
Especially, if you have enough power going to each one of them... I'm running the Monoprice Class D, 8x200w amplifier...
Hi Gene, 7.2.4
Triad Gold LCR'S up front, Triad Bronze on wall for surround, in- ceiling Bronze for Atmos and Rhythmic F18 for the subwoofers.
Can’t remember the video you asked about our systems so, I’ll write it here. I have 3 surround systems. Right or wrong I wanted to try for the best Surround and stereo in 1. So, my best system includes a Denon AVR-X6300H for the 2020 B&W HTM71 S2 Center, and 1999, Canadian made (pre Klipsch ownership) Energy C-2HB-1 surround and 1999 Energy indoor/outdoor surround backs. Then a 2021 Moon ACE in bypass mode, allowing use of the Denon EQ with Audyssey off after initial Audyssey setup, driving L & R 2020 B&W 702 S2 fronts and a 1999 Energy Encore-8 Sub. I mostly stream my music. For streaming in stereo (not a fan of Dolby ATMOS) I use Qobuz from my IPad Pro and iPhone Pro to a 2022 ifi micro iDSD Signature DAC to the Denon and back through the Moon for front channels only. For my large CD library, I get great sound from a decent Sony BlueRay player with Super CD. I also have a Sony DVP-S7000 but, the new player has way better sound. For me, with the addition of the Moon, I am super happy with the surround and the 702s for stereo. Of course, I have Apple TV and can stream all of my Apple Music as well. BTW, the Moon Ace is a streamer and the reason for getting the ACE but, I prefer using the EQ in the Denon where the ACE does not have an EQ. Lastly, I wish I would have known about your sight sooner. I will admit that I probably could have purchased a set of B&W 705 S2s for my surround side speakers with the money I’ve spent with audioQuest products between cables and portable DACs. All of the portable dacs have failed and several audio cables have shorted in addition to the wasted money overall.
That validates my thoughts about speakers. Thanks so much. 🔊👍
I think the side channels are crucial if you have an odd-shaped room (front left/right). Also, when watching content with 2.1 audio, it helps to have the speakers there to hear the dialogue better.
Well Gene I'm running a 25.8.16 channel setup. I have a Yamaha RX-A8A running half the system and a Marantz Cinema 50 running the other half. My speakers are all 2ohm. I have eco mode enabled on both receivers and I have the 4 ohm switch enabled on both receivers on all channels. I'm running YPAO, Audyssey, and Dirac all simultaneously. However I like to re-run YPAO after for good measure to really dial it all in.
Sounds amazing and I save a lot of money on my electric bill.
Troll
@@Audioholics c'mon Gene. It was a joke. You didn't t laugh? I was laughing my ass off.
@Mike Lewis SELA I did actually.
7.4.4 setup and I agree that the rearbsides are very important
Really great approach Gene, that's what keeps me coming back. thanks again!
Can’t agree more. Side channels have much more presence than rear or height
I certainly agree about the side surrounds, but question putting their quality close to LCR's. My understanding is that, in general, there is very little content below 100 hz or above ~10,000 hz sent to the surround channels.
Bought my first surround speaker system from a friend and yeah realised how important the center is cause the jamo s81 was just ”ok” so have to def upgrade that one and in time upgrade the front speakers and put the front canton mx to the sides and have 7.1 , the heco 12 inch sub im more then happy with. God damn already after two weeks im thinking about upgrading This will turn out expensive just like my Photography passion 😂
Center #1.. We mix most dialogue into it.
But yeah the sides give you the most depth.
I noticed this years ago when we first switched
mixing 5.1 to 7.1.. now we do 7.2.4
If the sides in the back provide depth like you said then it only follows logical sense for the front sides (aka front wides) to do the same up front
But sadly many people, and people making content choose to ignore them -sigh-
The surrounds are the most important surrounds, lol. My rear surrounds don't do nearly as much as the surrounds. I run 6 towers (2 RP8000s and 4 RP5000s) and an RP504C center. I have a set of RP600Ms and just got the Cinema 30 so I'm expanding to 9.3.4 this weekend. Can't wait!
The sub(s), are the most important🙊
There is nothing more anoying than a lack in the bottom end...
And...for the best sound, all speakers should be exactly the same as you said. (My layout: tower LCR and surroun rear. Bookshelf variant of towers for surround and 4 atmos. 3 subs. Gues it is 6.1 (3).4? External power for all towers🤪
The House of Sound home theatre room in NYC has 16 subs (all Sonus Faber Arena S15). 10 in the front, with 6 in the rear. All low frequencies around and above the room are directed to the subs. They have proven that low frequencies are not omni-directional. If you want a truly immersive and visceral experience, you need more subs.
sides would be also cus more content uses them. 5.1 is basically the minimum surround format. not all movies do 7.1 "es" or "ex" mixes when talking older content. that side my 4 surrounds are all the same speaker and if they get upgraded, likely do all 4 at once. but if you have a 5.1 now and add 2 more then yeah get better speakers to make the new side surrounds, and depreciate your current ones to the rears.
i have a living room setup I have a semi open room. When I had a 5.1 system my back surrounds were bookshelf speakers high up on the back wall on each end of couch. couch about 4 feet from back wall. When I went atmos I put in in wall surrounds in back wall and significantly lowered them at same time I added top front top rear in ceiling speakers. In most cases I think my setup is better that I have my surrounds behind in a 5.1.4 . If my surrounds were to the side when something was supposed to be happening behind me I would have no speaker also I would have in my opinion less envelopment overall beacause my soundstage would stop at sofa. By placing behind me I get that rear envelopment and I still retain the left right seperation. Having said that if I had sidewalls I would have side and rear surround. but in my opinion with only one set of surrounds its more useful to place them at rear you still get side to side but you retain more envelopment and rear effects if any.
Center speaker is so important. That’s why i keep mine in a locked cabinet below tv so dust can’t get to it
Thanks for the giggle! With ultra short throw projectors this might become my unfortunate reality.
Wrong place for a centre speaker. Putting it an enclosure will change the sound. Diffraction and gain are affected, the speaker will sound muddy. Protect from dust, rediculous, like any piece of furniture just dust it. You need to look at the videos and articles on speaker placement.
@@davidbayly4593 you need to look up what sarcasm is
Good morning Gene. I agree the side speakers are underrated with a cape on them; I have a 5.2.2 setup, and do you think I should keep it as a 7.2, or 5.2.2?
I know you hear this same question for years; I value your opinion.
I have a 7.1.2 setup. I have to put the sides somewhat behind me, there is a sliding glass door where Gene recommends putting them.
In my surround system I have two left and two right side surrounds,two towards the front and two towards the side plus two back speakers plus five 12 inch powered subs !
Wow I was surprised and amazed by your answer
Hi Gene.Thanks for your information
I use Klipsch RP250S as side speakers...they are bipole...and it sounds seamless between the fronts and back speakers....
Thank you Gene for the informative video! I have a Klipsch Synergy 7.1 surround sound system with a Yamaha 7.2 A/V receiver. My sub is the Klipsch down firing SW-450 I find using the YAPO within my Yamaha receiver comes in useful. I purchased both in 2010, but they are both sounding as good as the day of purchase...knock on wood.
Interesting. This is the first and only person I've ever heard say they like the Atmos & DTS music up mixers better than Auro 3D. I'm currently in the process of building a dedicated home theater/listening room that will be a 7.4.6 and am anxious to hear which format I like best.
I'm format agnostic but I go with what sounds beet based in content. In music that doesn't have a lot of decorrelated info Auro sounds better to me (ie. Close mic jack music recorded in a small venue). For mostly everything else, the DSU is far superior.
See:th-cam.com/video/AayO583aY6A/w-d-xo.html
@Audioholics --- What would 10.4.8 sound like? Would any movies even be able to use that configuration? Or 12.6.10?
And what about players/streamers and receivers/processors, would they be able to handle that many channels?
Interesting. Side channels. I understand positioning them correctly is important. However, when I put my ears next to speakers other than the Center, very little sound comes out of them. Only sporadic effect sounds (high pitch dings, bangs, shhhh, etc noises) heard now and then. That's why I bought into a number of explanations advising surround speakers do not need to be super great.
It really depends on content and how mastered. I agree with films, the sides are typically used for sound effects. However, for immersive audio (e.g. orchestral/choral, live concerts, SACD, multichannel DSD, DVD/A, BDA, etc), that's where it really matters - all bed layer channels are essentially always on! I will agree with Gene that the rears are often used for large concert reverb effects whereas the sides actually have instruments/vocals. FYI - if you play converted 4 channel "quadrphonic" recordings from the 1970's to SACD, the sound comes out on L/R and the 2 sides - nothing in the rear surrounds.
Very interesting Gene, thank you for the valuable insight! Perfect timing, this going to help me in purchasing my side surrounds. :)
Hi Gene - since you have a 9.4.4 system, you should do a video from most important surround all the way to least important so we know which channels to really prioritize and in what order.
(Hard Time deciding between rears vs wides or front height vs top front vs top middle, etc)
Good idea. Thanks
If Gene is saying side surrounds are important because of the depth they add to the back set of speakers then it makes sense that front sides (or front wides as they are more better known) would do the same for front set of speakers by adding more depth and dimension to bridge gap between side surrounds and Mains
Great info on the 10 degree in front side channels!!
I'm running 7.1.2. The four surrounds are about 3 feet higher than the listening position and angled down.
I’m using Klipsch reference 2 front and rear towers and it’s really
Big difference with the sound in your rear channel is more open
Clear and solid sound
All speakers are Martin Logan. 50XTi Center, 40i front With up firing speakers on top for Dolby, 35XTi side, two 1000X subwoofers in the front.
Gene, when I'm playing my music blu-rays on my 5-1-2, I like it set to "Virtual" which I think emphasises my centre speaker(which is my most expensive
I have a 5.3.2 set up my seating is close to the wall I don't have the space to have rears in my set up however I have a pair of paradigm bipolars that are mounted on the rear wall but somewhat angled towards my listening position and do get reflections based on the multi angles but I think it ads a lot of spaciousness to my listing making the environment sound a lot larger may be I should try to get them beside me but I have a open wall to one side. I have changed mains and kept those paradigms they sound rather good
Hello Gene, thank you for the great info. I have a set up that can be configured 5.2.4 or 7.2.2. In your opinion, which is better for immersive movie watching. Mind you that the two ceiling rear atmos is what would be converted to rears for bed layer in the 7.2.2. The rears would not be at ear level.
Can you provide a link to those surround speakers ? I can't find it on there website thanks
What should we look for when trying to match speakers or tone match speakers and what do we look at on spec sheets and what do the spec sheets tell us ?
my 4 bouncy house atmos forsure.
The center...the others just help him.
A good set of L&R properly placed can create an amazing ghost center. It’s in my mind the most un important speaker. L&R are #1
@@abxaudiophiles wrong. for AV use the center is the focal point ... LR comes after that. if you go the ghost speakers route ... just use headphones.
@@ericshutter5305 . Unless you are sat off axis there really is no need for a centre channel and a phantom channel gives the best synergy unless you’re using three identical speakers. Nearly all centre channel speakers have awful off axis response due to the driver placement.
@@thenorfolkst Eric has his opinion. We won’t change it. But I personally would NEVER build out a HT based on a center channel. Silly
Absolutely, a good centre channel is the best way to achieve clear intelligible dialogue, particularly during critical or busy scenes.
I have 5.1 Klipschs RP-8000F for fronts L R , RP-404C Center , Klipsch RP-600M Reference Premiere Bookshelf Speakers for side. And SVS PB 2000 Sub..
Hey Gene the Front Wides channels are essentially the equivalent of the Side surrounds except they are up front but for whatever reason it seems like they get ignored way too much
I’d easily sacrifice having 6 height channels and go with 4 of it means I can have front wide channels
what are your thoughts on bi /di pol I have def tech bp2002 towers clr 3000 center triad gold for my wide def tech bipolar side surround and large book shelf speakers in the rear, def tech book shelf in front height and def tech xtr 40 height middle 9.6.4 based on your reviews i got the Marantz 8015 and added an amp for the wide channel most of my speakers are bit older but still kicks nice i'm fairly new at this and have swopping out speakers that i can afford ,
Appreciate the knowledge and based on this video I have subscribed. I have spent quite a bit on LCR but sadly I admit I have skimped on my surrounds and rears. Any recommendations of rears and surrounds in the lower to midrange budgets?
Really useful video thank you :)
One thing I would advise against is using towers for your surrounds. I had a pair of Boston Horizons kicking around and decided to give it a try. The bass is weak, and the mid/treble is at the correct height. Well it seems like they're just tuned incorrectly to be used for surrounds. It was a good thought, but didn't work out.
I would say it depends. I run SVS and have the prime towers as surrounds (sides and rears) and it does an incredible job. Those towers are matched to the three ultras I have for LCR. The timbre match makes a big difference. I can run my bed lower at the same crossover because I have all towers. It’s simply a more cohesive configuration, IMO.
@@FriendOfaCoolFriend Many thanks, what kind of balance settings are you using in the processor?
@andrew jackson
If your LCR are different make from those BA towers (that you used as surrounds) IME lack of timber match is a recipe for disappointment.
I find myself in a bit of a predicament and hope you can offer assistance. This is my inaugural attempt at building a setup, and I've acquired the T2+&C2+ components. Unfortunately, Emotiva has discontinued the B's, leaving me in need of rear speakers to finalize my 5.1 configuration. As you may be aware, the Emotivas boast ribbon tweeters, and I desire a consistent sound experience all around. While it's commonly suggested that side speakers can be budget-friendly, I'm keen on capturing every detail, even on the sides. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
Hello Gene. My side surrounds are floorstanding speakers that match my fronts. Unfortunately my room doesnt allow me to put speakers behind me. My couch is a foot from the back wall. Im using in ceiling speakers directly above me for rear surounds. If I add a pair of the martin logan fx2 behind my seating position would it be worth the investment? If I did this I would use a splitter and utilize 2 sets of speakers for my rear surrounds
All of them of course
Hi Gene, what if for example your using two rows of seats in your home theater, what inputs on your Marantz AV10 would you then use for an additional set of side surounds for say a 9.2.4 Atmos set up?
Would the additional side surrounds be used as "FRONT WIDES" as inputs on the Marantz AV10?
Running 7.4.4 Denon X3800H 😊
Hi, Gene. Excellent video, thank you so much for the info! Grimani says surrounds should be at 100 degrees while my understanding is that you’re recommending 80 degrees for optimal placement (for a single row), have your views changed on the subject over the last two years or do you still believe 80 degrees is ideal? Thanks!!
It depends on which surround speakers you are referring to and also your room layout and restrictions. I don't hold strict to exact angles on surround speakers as it's often an impossible task to do in real rooms and we have the ability to digitally delay and EQ to help improve performance for non-optimally placed speakers to some degree. I really like my side channels lined up with my main listening row as I feel the lateralization of sound is very important. IF you have multiple rows, you can use 2 sets of side channels or place 1 set between rows IF your processor doesn't support dual side channels. I lean towards optimizing the most important row and setting my speaker positions accordingly.
@@Audioholics thank you so much for your quick and thorough response!! 🙏
Thank you so much for covering this topic! Very helpful. I have a 5.2.4 setup and might go to 7.2.4 and I’m curious - do you think the side or back speakers should receive the same amount of external amplification ideally as my LCRs 4 ohm > 90 sensitivity if they are matching 4 ohm > 90 sensitivity but bookshelf speakers (all are the new Martin Logan Motion XT loudspeakers, F200, C100, B100) and go with a 7 channel continuous 250W @4 ohms amp for all 7 bed layers with my Marantz Cinema 40 powering the 4 Atmos speakers or is an 11 channels LCR 250W @ 4 ohms with all effects speakers 150W @ 4 ohms sufficient? I’ve never purchased an external amp before but feel I need them with my Marantz Cinema 40 in combo with these 4ohm Martin Logan Motion XT speakers bed speakers. My Atmos speakers are 8 ohm Triad Silver 9 - amiable 45 degree baffle in ceiling speakers. I might move to separates / a preprocesser (thinking Anthem) one day so I thought maybe having the 11 channel would be good and also offer the same sound signature across all speakers instead of delegating the Marantz internal amps to the height speakers? Or is the lower power 150W effects stereo amps on a 11 amp undesirable for the B100’s over a 250W all 7 channel driven amp? Bottom line - how much power do surrounds really need? Thank you in advance for your help / thoughts! -Andy
I probably need a spool of cable to hook up the Side floorstanding speakers. What cable should I buy on a spool?
Would you do side OVER surround back? Only have 5 speakers right now!
Hey Gene, one love your videos, and two have a quick question on this older video you did.
Do you believe 821’s will be measurable difference vs the 760’s? Looking to get my sides to go with my 831R but wondering if it’s worth stepping up for the sides
Were should the surround L/R speakers be placed if it's 5.1.4 and what would be the hieght you would suggest
What are the pros and cons of matching the back channels speakers to the front channels speakers in a 7.2.2 setup? I’m building a home theater based on the Wharfedale EVO speakers and got the EVO 4.2 bookshelves for L/R front, the 4.C for center, and the 4.S for sides. Then I was considering the EVO 4.1 for L/R back but found the EVO 4.2 on sale for just $50 more. Would that be a good set up with 4 EVO 4.2s FR, FL, BR, and BL or would I be better of with the EVO 4.1 for back channels?
I have my sides at 90 degrees, I might try a little in front some day
I have a bay window on the left and there is only the back wall to accommodate the surrounds. So my system is bad if I understand correctly.
What would give a more immersive experience between these two, 7.1.2 or 5.1.4?????
5.1.4
Is this height ceiling speaker plan set up complimentary for 3D Auro....issue i have with atmos ceiling speakers are aimed at floor? atmos content is rather no so good hence the use of 3D auro upmixing and having 2 front hieght mounted on wall angled at 30 deg to mlp. Still wish there was more discuasion on height surround speakers that have narrow direct.dispersion....
In a 5.1 system is there a way to have two speakers on each for the side channels (side left and side right )