Why Do Audiophiles HATE the Center Channel?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video, we discuss why some audiophiles may HATE the center channel speaker and choose to eliminate one from their multi-channel home theater systems.
0:00 Introduction
1:00 Chose the wrong center channel
4:00 Improper center channel placement
7:16 Bad calibration (time alignment, level)
8:52 Wrong upmixer settings (ie. DSU w/o center spread enabled, DTS Neural X upmixing)
11:01 Bad tuning between Mains and Center (ie. Room EQ, AT screen loss compensation)
12:23 Just a 2CH purist that prefers to hear what their mains can do on their own
► Read: Top 6 Reasons Audiophiles Hate the Center Channel: www.audioholics.com/editorial...
► Read Center Channel Designs & Compromises: bit.ly/centerchanneldesigns
► Read about Bass Management Set Up: bit.ly/bassmanagementsetup
► Shop Audio Advice: bit.ly/3thUFI1
Recommended Center Channels:
SVS Prime Center: bit.ly/SVSPrimecenter
Paradigm Premier 500C: bit.ly/Paradigm500C
Revel C208: bit.ly/RevelC208
Recommended Headphones:
Focal Bathys: bit.ly/FocalBathyswireless
Focal Celestee: bit.ly/Focalcelestee
Mark Levinson 5909: bit.ly/MarkLevinson5909
Sony WF-1000XM3: bit.ly/SonyIEMs
Recommended Subwoofers:
SVS SB-1000 Pro: audioadvice.io/36Pea3a
SVS PB-1000 Pro: audioadvice.io/3sreeyk
SVS SB-3000: bit.ly/SVSSB3000Sub
Paradigm Defiance X12: bit.ly/ParadigmX12
Recommended AV Receivers:
Onkyo TX-RZ50 ($1,599): bit.ly/OnkyoTXZ50
Denon AVR-X3800H 9.2CH AV Receiver: bit.ly/DenonX3800h
Marantz Cinema 50: bit.ly/MarantzCinema50
Yamaha RX-A2A: audioadvice.io/3ppWFg9
Denon AVR-X6700H 11.2CH AV Receiver: audioadvice.io/3HsdEou
Anthem MRX1140: bit.ly/AnthemMRX1140
Anthem AVM 90 15.4CH Processor: bit.ly/AnthemAVM90
Monolith M8250x 8CH Amp: bit.ly/8CHamp
NAD M23: bit.ly/NADm23amp
Recommended Powered Speakers:
Kanto YU4: bit.ly/Kantoyu4
Kanto YU6: bit.ly/KantoYU6speakers
Kanto TUK: bit.ly/KantoTUK
Kanto Sub8: bit.ly/KantoSub8
Recommended Speakers:
SVS Prime 5.1 Speaker / Sub System: audioadvice.io/3JZJOt5
Polk R700 Tower Speakers: audioadvice.io/3C0TK2B
Heco Aurora 700: bit.ly/HecoAurora700spks
Heco Aurora 1000 Tower Speakers: bit.ly/Aurora1000
Klipsch RP-8000F II Tower Speakers: audioadvice.io/3445l4A
Arendal 1723S Tower Speakers: bit.ly/Arendal1723s
Focal Aria K2 936: bit.ly/3zVAxi5
Focal Kanta No2: bit.ly/Focalkantano2
Sony SSCS5 Speakers:audioadvice.io/3td2O0w
SVS Prime Elevation Surround: audioadvice.io/35aZCdR
Audioholics Recommended Cables:
250ft CL2 12AWG Speaker Cable: amzn.to/2vwS9QH
50ft 10AWG Speaker Cable: amzn.to/3DeMTT5
Locking Banana Plugs: amzn.to/2ZQt15x
9ft 4K HDR HDMI Cables: amzn.to/2WiIXeD
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#hometheater #audiophile #music - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Great video thank you so much. I actually have a reason for disliking the centre channel not covered here. I am totally blind, I have no eyesight. What I've found, is that the centre channel is used to draw your attention to events/voices on screen. That's fine I guess and it makes sense, you said yourself have it near/under the display. The problem is, real life sound doesn't work like that and I guess for me I'm very sensitive to that fact. People are rarely dead centre of anything. So I tend to find that a lot of stuff is just dumped into that centre channel and the image isn't life-like. Over the years I've gotten used to it, but I'd much rather prefer people thought about and adjusted the front spread rather than putting so much into one channel that doesn't move and sometimes doesn't even have the same reverb as the rest of the speakers. An example of this can be when someone is speaking from the centre, the reverb is sent to the surround backs, but not really the front left and right. Try turning the centre off in films it's really interesting what is and isn't there :)
I concur as a sighted person, in that often I find myself lowering the output of my center when using multi channel source material and than raising the other channels with a focus on more output from the Front mains. Granted this is in a smaller room. Seems to take some of the "strain" and focus away from the center especially when lower bass is very pronounced and/or "rapid fire" while mids and highs are also present. I run an WMTW center btw with proper crossover points and a sub. The center mixes in FPS video games are the primary culprit for me, as weapon sounds are often mixed very center heavy...additionally many movies seem to be mixed way too much towards the center for my ears. Simply put... To my ears many modern games and movies are mixed with too much center channel bias.
I dont need a center speaker. Cross streamed Elacs or equal are superior to center channels. Placed properly. Closer to you than the screen.
But your tv would be directly in front of you so no matter where the person is on screen the person is still in front of you
Poor mixes exist in music and movies. Great albums get ruined by bad mixes all the time
Great comment. Shows how digital surround processing is still a make-believe.
I can’t imagine film without center channel. I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s and I created surround using speakers from stereo and quad. Now that a center is available, I can’t imagine going back to that sound image
Great, helpful video!
99% of centers suck. If your i to high end stereo, theres not much horizontal audiophile speakers available
People don't realize they have to place the center first. Everything else gets placed off of it. That way u don't have to use whatever correction the processor has built in.. Your speakers are all the right distance away. Also don't use a "center channel" speaker . If your using bookshelf speakers. Use the same bookshelf for a center. If your using a tower use the same tower for your center. I dont like multi channel . I listen to everything in 2.2
Center channel kicks ass. As soon as I put a 5.1 system together, that center channel instantly brought out the dialog. Previously I would be turning the volume up and down constantly because the dialog was too quiet and the action was too loud. Now it's perfect.
Who are “audiophiles”, anyway? Everyone has their own preference when it comes to sound and equipment. Audio is probably one of the most subjective areas there is.
Oh you’ll know when someone is an audiophile, because they won’t stop telling you how bad your setup is and how only theirs is the right one. 😂
@@soapa4279
😂😂😂
It sort of is subjective but the engineer is the subjective that cou ts to how something truly is supposed to sound vs preference. Which nothing is wrong with someone's preference but you may miss something going your own way
@Abominable what about the detail you could miss leaning towards your preference
@Abominable exactly which reference speakers are flat but most people don't know what something is supposed to ie instruments and vocal so if they believe a big name brand speaker plays it it has to be correct
Great topic and discussion Gene! I was previously displeased with the center channel until I upgraded my front stage to KEF Reference and spent the time to make sure everything is placed and setup properly including height, angle and eq.
Hi Gene, That was an amazing video and it was so informative. I am very pleased to see you come down to the very roots of Home Theatre. I was getting a bit disappointed with some of your very exhaustive videos on room treatment and discussion on in wall sub woofers. While many of us mere mortals would love to do such things, it is simply not practical for various reasons.
So thanks again on a video that provides information that I can actually do something with it. Great job!
Great educational video! Congratulations!
Although I am an audiophile and I use my system 70-30 for music, I love the center channel. It's very useful not only for movies but for music as well. Exactly as you analyzed it.
I absolutely love the center channel. It makes conversations clearer!!
There are so many out there saying things that just don't make sense. I've been watching you for months Gene and as usual your right on the mark..
Great job!
I completely agree. I worked very hard to get EVERY speaker in my 5.1 Sony ES HT setup positioned and calibrated for optimum sound. Yes, it was a process that involved much experimentation and many, many tweaks over time to finally get everything I really wanted from the sound. I suppose many whiny and impatient people would flinch and say that the dirty words just used were "work" and "time." Pretty basic stuff, really. Thank you for all that you do to spread truth, sometimes hard truth in these audio and home theater hobbies that can be so rewarding, when we patiently study, plan, and work for our rewards.
Thank you! You solved my center channel conundrum. My positioning was fine but my receiver was putting way too much volume into the center when listening to music. I didn’t realize this could be adjusted until you described the setting for center width or spread. It perfectly solved my problem. Now, the Dolby music setting only puts a very low level into the center channel and most into the front left and right speakers, with just enough in the rear for ambience.
Why are you listening to music from your centre channel. Just go pure direct analogue to 2 channels.
Great explanation on C. Channels! I’m working on a 5.1.2 system/ Dolby Atmos surround sound for my living room. When I started the idea for a Hi-Fi sound system I was overwhelmed. I reached out to 5 different audio retailers and only 1 said, I’m not selling you anything until I know where, what, the dimensions are, wall material, and what’s in the room. (Which was the correct response). I spent 6 hours or so listening to different speakers, channels, AVRs that matched my ears. It was a long process but well worth the time. I hear things or parts of songs that I never heard before even though I’ve that song 5 thousand times. Even movies you hear dialog clearly while explosions are going of and my floor is rumbling. So, I think correctly selecting equipment setting equipment up properly a center channel will bring a new meaning to audio. It encompasses a person, seducing you in a movie the way the producer/ director had intended. I had several people watch Top Gun Maverick 4K DVD (not streamed) and several times 5 of the guests jumped from their seats. The hi fi sound system / center channel sucked you in the movie. The people watching the movie didn’t know they were in the movie until that moment came when the jumped out of their seats. So yes the center channel is very very important piece of equipment in a hi fi system of your dreams. The center channel I think doesn’t have to be purchased the same day but, it should be planned as a vital component in your system. Maybe get the c.c. before the subwoofer. Mr. podcaster please advise if and how I can send a photo of my setup and tell me the good, bad and ugly. Thank you Rodney
It was good to hear you say that you build from 2 channel music outwards or that you listen to just mains sometimes. I had it figured you were more about HT all of this time. For me, 2.1 sort of replaced the need for a center for music with how well the mains seem to produce the phantom center now relieved of much of the sub bass. Even just using subs as fill below 40hz on a well performing 3-way makes a difference.
Gene! Very good video. Fantastic free advice for everyone. Keep up the good work!
Conventional HT wisdom says that the center channel is the #1 priority in terms of the budget, because that's where all the work gets done. Whilst this is true, my chosen strategy is to do without the center channel and redistribute that portion of the budget to the mains. This way I can afford to buy no-compromise mains. Which in turn means I get superior sound quality overall, especially for music.
I've always wondered how 4 solid mains would do or 6 without a center
Great tips, Gene!
The drivers in my center channel speaker are of your recommended configuration. It's on a shelf directly under my flat panel, so its tweeter is positioned a little lower than the tweeters in my L/R towers. But dialog and effects panned across the stage in videos progress smoothly without any timbral or volume shifts. All seems well integrated in these respects.
Nevertheless, when listening to music, I find that I prefer only a phantom center, even though I upmix all of my stereo music content to immersive audio. My pre-pro offers multiple methods for upmixing stereo recordings to multichannel, including the AnthemMusic upmixer, which utilizes all of the speakers EXCEPT the center speaker, and is the one I prefer for the most convincing music presentations. Even AnthemVideo, which does use the center speaker, doesn't sound as natural.
DSU with some center channel spread would be my second choice for music upmixing after AnthemMusic, but vocals and some featured instruments don't sound quite as convincing to me with DSU. And I completely agree with you with respect to DTS Neural X. I consider it, by far, the least desirable upmixer available to me for music. Not only is the center channel overpowering, but so are all of the surrounds.
for movies and tv i like the center BUT for music i prefer stereo only
Hi guys, Gene has started a hare running here. Great fun! The legit way to test and compare alternatives is by means of instantaneous, level matched, blind, A/B testing. Since watching Gene's video, I have been comparing the performance of my basement HT with and without the centre channel. For me, it is as easy as toggling the Music Mode button on my remote back and forth between Surround Mode and Stereo Mode. I have a Marantz SR5015 configured 7.1 in a fully treated room with full EQ. Without divulging my findings and giving the game away, I'd love to hear what others discover, Gene included.
This is a very good video, i.e., another one of your best. Thanks Audioholics.
Hey Gene, this is a two channel tip, but try using band limited pink noise in Rew/ like 1500 or 2k hz. play w your timing (no more than +- an inch oror less) and you can really fine tune that center position.
Glad I waited to the end to reply. Rather than yelling from the beginning!
Yes when I want to listen to my "Audiophile" system from a serious 2 channel music only source, I drag my Maggies out, power up the amp beast and move the chair to the best listening spot. Primarily vinyl so I make a time commitment! But they block access to the bedroom and garage. So they can't stay out.
Right now in the background streaming from my media server, for regular occasional TV, ... I use a modest soundbar with it's sub and it's rear speakers. And it has a good center channel for movies and what hopefully will soon finally be a winning Packers game!
I've also heard Anthony Grimani talk about a 2.5 way center ch speaker, where the mids are 2 x drivers and tweeter in the middle, but the mid drivers are not separate ranges of frequencies. One driver covers all mids, and the second one is crossed over to handle only upper mids. The center speaker I have is like this, but in the specs, they call it "Quasi-3 way". I haven't tried it yet, but I think it will work well, since the speaker has 90 degree horizontal dispersion. I have an OLED TV, so it will have to be placed directly under the display (as best possible).
I'm a #6, but only because I know almost nothing about home theater systems. All of my experience comes from listening and mixing in purely stereo environments, so most of my information about multi-channel audio derives from watching content like yours. I do own a 5.1 setup and I'm eager to employ it once I can match it with a suitable space, so I thank you for making videos like these.
@13:30 that's it : I never succeeded, and I never heard anywhere a multichannel system that was acceptable for music, and that did not deteriorate greatly the experience when switching from 2.1 to multi. I even tried to use 3 identical bookshelf aligned on the same level, even when the processing does not vacuum everything in the center, as soon as I switch to multichannel, I feel like I need to open the windows. But then when there is a movie : the same : I prefer the impact, the precision, the placement of each noise. The same with gaming, when I am in 2.1 I know where the ennemy is coming from with closed eyes. But I would agree with all the previous points, I probably did not try hard enough, and in the end it's so good in 2.1 that I stopped trying.
Hi
I am using the same room for music and film. I have experimented with a few different setups over the years.
First I had good full range tower speakers and their matching center mounted as high as possible under the small sceen (TV).
Later I invested in three identical tower speakers and hang a flat TV from the ceiling.
However now I have a 4.0.0 system and I find that best for me. The reasons are:
- My stereo setup is of much higher quality than the mulichannel/film setup, so I use different equipment for music and film. I have tried to find a common system that match current qualities but failed so far. I have tested the top if line from several brands.
- My stereo setup do not have upmixing capabilities.
- An unused center speaker is not good to have. It was a clear improvement when I removed it from the room.
- Now I have a large screen that rolls up when not used. There is no place for a center channel.
- In most cases there is one or two persons in the room.
G.D much appreciated sir
Until then I will keep watching.
I don’t see hating on center channel use because I don’t have a home theatre setup. What others do is their little red wagon. I don’t have much time for haters and all this negativity. Tastes are different as well as budgets. It isn’t that serious. Like the song says, you go your way and I’ll go my way. Like your explanation of the problems and solutions on this subject. I’ll continue to do the equilateral triangle thing and keep it simple and no fuss. It’s how I roll. There is usually more than one way to address problems. You always address both and you back your words with science and reason. Bravo Gene. Keep fighting that snake oil!
As always, good stuff and very educational in terms of audio. Btw Gene, Audiophiles have so much love with REL subwoofers for being fast and musical but from one of your videos, I heard Matt hate REL subs. I dont own one so I dont know how they sound, just checking your thoughts about it or perhaps you can discuss on another topic? More power to you and Audioholics!
EDIT: not sure if Matt hates it or he's just not a fan of it.
Yes, #6. That's the fun, the illusion, the fun of it. The first time I heard true stereo phantom center was mind blowing. I love that narrow area. It's almost meditative.
I really enjoy watching your videos by the way, the reason why I don't like having a center channel is because their difficult to place and often looks awkward and ending up maybe buying some new furniture just to make is aesthetically pleasing. Also consider myself a two-channel purist.
Well said! I wish speaker manufacturers would make the quality/components of the centre speaker match the models main speakers. If you get time, review the centre speakers when you do the main ones. Keep up the good work. atb.
I have a Pro-Audio BBE Sonic Maximizer hooked up to my JBL center channel. If you know about the product and what it does, it works really well. No matter how bad the mix in movies, you always hear dialogue and clarity. I also have one hooked up to my mains.
I've been running a 4.1 system for many years with Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II mains, Vandersteen VSM-1 rears, and a HSU Research VTF-3 MK4 subwoofer. As an avid gamer and movie and music fan I have never missed having a center channel.
Thx for information!
I am surprised no one brings up the 3 channel wide stage stereo from the original Bell Labs audio work that Klipsch recommended back in the 1960's with a mono center channel about 3db lower in level than the left & right speakers. I heard this arrangement in the Klipsch factory demo room in 1971 set up on the long wall with a pair of K-horns in the front corners and a Belle Klipsch (home version of the La Scalla speaker) in the center. Excellent sound staging across the entire width of the room.
The DSU essentially does this with center spread on. I agree.
I think the reason is so much more simple and it’s the fact that 99% of us do not have a screen and or a transparent screen with a speaker behind it. It’s very easy to localized where the center speaker sound is coming from. The illusion of the phantom center makes it seem as though the voices are coming from the screen rather than below, or above it. That’s it, done.
I'm definitely in the two channel purist category. The thing is, as a single guy it really doesn't matter to me that the phantom center has a narrow sweet spot. I can sit in the prime seat every single time. For me that's part of the beauty of home theater, I can have a private screening. So from that perspective, a phantom center is way better than an actual center channel that is less than ideal.
Dynamite Video as always Gene!
My 5.2.4 system is used and tuned for it's best performance with music. I enjoy movies but only watch one or two a month. (I watched Marz Bros Monkey Business last night but I don't think it counts. LOL ) Shame about the Center Channel Haters out there, same about the MULTICH Haters. Todays immersive mixes take music listening and enjoyment to a whole new level. It goes beyond belief that anyone could listen to a good Multich music mix on a good system and not appreciate it?
BTW your hints over time have added a lot to my personal enjoyment. I had no idea about Dolby's Center Spread till you brought it to my our attention. And now your remarks on correct Auro3D settings, (I have a new Denon X4700H), will most likely improve my up-sampled sound with it. Denon said to use Small for "pop" music but now I'll try Med and Large to check out the front soundstaging,
Thanks Again!
May the Surround Force Be With You. ;)
Sal1950
I currently own an Wharfedale Evo center channel and it sounds amazing. Yeah, it's the one that many consider being the best type of center channel - 2 big woofers on the sides, a tweeter and a mid woofer in the middle. I only use it for movies, not for music and most of the action comes from the center so, yes, this is probably the most important speaker in a surround setup. Also, there are quite a few movie discs out there using the original audio mono tracks; in that case, the center channel must handle ALL the the work. so it's very important what kind of speaker you should choose. And I would add another point/problem to this topic; many people don't take into account the quality of the audio mixing in the first place. Sometimes, no matter how good a speaker is, you just can't avoid a poor quality audio mix. Don't blame everything on the speaker, guys.
I've got the same speaker, sounds great and dialogue is much better now. Even better, picking up a second hand one, like new, for £300. Use with Evo 4.2's and a PB1000 sub.
In the 1930's RCA labs wanted future stereo to include a center channel because it better duplicated the soundstage of a live orchestra. The reason it was introduced as two channels was there were only two degrees of freedom that were orthogonal possible in record grooves. Magnepan did some screened listening tests with non-professional listener audiences and they made the center channel L+R at 3 dB down and everyone who heard it preferred three channels done this way. Magnepan makes a center channel speaker that is designed to go with their main speakers. I drive my center channel with L and R buffered and blended in one output transformer and a GM 70 SET and my main channels with 833A SETs. I can also switch between center channel from SACD and movies or L+R. This works for me.
I found it fascinating that dialogue from the center can sound different on different AVR's. I had an anthem mrx310 - loved that receiver, but dialogue was far softer on that than it was on my entry level Yamaha. I'm still puzzled why there was such a big difference, the Anthem receiver is far superior. Only thing I could think of is maybe the dynamic range is larger on the anthem receiver. Dialogue was quiet and the loudest sounds in movies were off the charts. On the Yamaha receiver dialogue comes through louder, and the loudest parts of movies are not as extreme. This was with dynamic range on full on both receivers
I don't hate the center, I just have no use for one. Especially with how much the image has improved with modern speakers and waveguides.
All great points!
I enjoy my centre channel speaker when movies or video concerts are on but playing music I enjoy my 2 channel system the way it was meant to be .
Center channel rules! Why? At the end, speakers can only produce so much sound at once. I think it has such an impact, I think all audio should be recorded as tri-channel and not merely dual-channel. You are absolutely correct in that balancing the center channel is CRITICAL to getting it sounding right! People don't think to do this, because the L/R channels "just work", but a properly levelled and balanced center is just MAGIC. I've actually got to the point that I prefer the up-mixed sound to just regular 2-channel.
I have my system setup in 3.1 with Rotel RSX1056, Epos M12i mains, M8 centre, and PSB Subsonic One. Overall my system sounds really good but, I do find that some things, particularly acoustic music, sound so much better in 2 ch mode. There's an improvement in width, depth, and imaging that just makes music sound more live.
Nicely Done.
You mentioned if your center is in a credenza stuff it with foam.
Did you make a video on this or can you link what type of foam ( both sides & behind ) ?
Thanks in advance
Could you elaborate or do a video on how to discover the right Auro 3D settings? Do you just tinker until it sounds best or is there more to it?
I love my centre channel and have no qualms but there is a part of me who wants to get a tower for the centre. I'm not sure if that would make a remarkable difference since it will be of a different speaker brand, looking at timbre matching.
Yes. I am an audiophile that love my center channel. I have B-W 803D's as my mains and the matching center channel (it's huge)...I don't upmix anything. I listen in multi channel stereo or 5.1 surround...on my Marantz processor. Love your content Gene...Even tho I only understand about 85% of what you say...LOL
Only ever used a centre channel with my Sony trinitron in 97 and that put me off so went with pro logic music and have done since in a 4.1. But have decided lately to go with a 5.1 from arendal and hopefully I'll like it this time considering it'll be a actual proper centre speaker. (The Sony 1 was about 8 inch wide lol)
Hi there. I really enjoy your videos. I have a question please. I have the Bose Lifestyle V20 and I love it. However, when I put the center channel on, the dialogue is much clearer but the sounds and music don’t sound as crisp as when I turn it off and just project the center channel to the left and right speakers. Any recommendation what you would suggest? I think maybe the center speaker had maybe of a midrange speaker as opposed to the direct reflecting cube left and right speakers? The center speaker just doesn’t to match the other speakers. Thanks
I just replaced a TV (yesterday) that was mounted just above an A/V cabinet on an attached frame and the only center channel that would fit was one that was probably too small (not timbre-matched) but from the same company as my L/R. My new TV, because of an unanticipated mounting issue, is now on my wall and have plenty of real estate to get a new, more appropriate center channel or, what I'm considering is getting a 3rd identical speaker to my L/R and using it. Have to wait till there's a sale, though (Klipsch RP-600M ii).
Interesting and informative.
I love my center channel speaker but unfortunately it is in cabinet that my TV is on. I have the back of it open but it is pretty close to the sides. What kind of foam do you recommend putting into the space? Hard or soft and what brand do you like?
Gene, in my home theater I have one row of seats, can I only use the first 3 calibration positions and get good results? or do I have to use the full 8 positions I'm using Audyssey.
My center is a MTM but one of the M's is passive. Wondering what people think of that. Is that a benefit or was that just a cost reduction in the speaker design? Just to be clear, I don't mean active/passive as in an internal amp. I mean passive as it is apparently not even wired up to the amp but relies on internal cabinet pressure to work. Its a Phase Tech Teatro 6.5. Here's what I found on the internet about it ..."less burden is placed on the crossover to address cancellation problems that can occur between two identical drivers playing identical signals. As a result, the 6.5's image is not only wide, deep, and accurate, but it never suffered from cancellations or nulls with the material we tried."
I have 3 Kef Q150's as LFR sounds great with Atmos.
A good reason most cheap out on the center channel and it sounds meh. Or whatever. I use mine all the time and it has proper voice correlation and all. You are right Gene and follows what happens most in audio. Usually it is done wrong as the source of why people don’t like something. Good seeing you Gene.
When I set up my home theater I really thought about the LCR. Center channels have always been a dilemma, I've spent from $50 to $500 on them and was never happy with the performance. No matter orientation, placement, type of center channel design, nothing ever seemed up to it. It was either weak in comparison to the towers or would draw all the attention to it during certain playback.
My solution was to order four of the front towers. I use one for each right and left and two for center channel. This so that I can have directionality and tune-ability to the room itself. Much more of a full field of center channel sound. Zero off access problems or attention draw to the center. It took some manual measuring to get them aligned to one another but after that I just have them both wired to a dedicated amp. Dropped the gain like 6db and MCACC did it's thing and I could never go back.
As a side note, I did have them spanned lengthwise under the screen as a center and this worked well but did not create a vertical sound field near what having both upright does.
How did you connect the 2 center channels? Did you connect them to the same binding posts. I want to use 3 bookshelves for LCR but all the ones I'm looking at come in pairs.
@@ryanr6240 Both center speakers are wired independently to their own amp output. L/R have independent amps and then a 12 channel drives surrounds, heights, centers. I had them wired together in an amp before(both speakers wired in parallel) but because of the staging of my room I went to independent channels so that I could tune it better. I have wanted to try three in an array to get full spread but never have found a single tower to match what I have.
I have about 60° off axis that is true from the center out using two.
Hello! Should the center be slightly behind the mains to create and arc or should all 3 speakers be inline?
Yes I like doing that as long as you properly time aling.
I put mine in such a position as to be as far from the wall as I can get it and so it won't reflect of my media center. I let the receiver time align. I figure the room and the stuff in it is more consequential than lining up with the mains. They're pretty close anyway.
It really doesn't matter as long as you are properly measuring the distances you are from each speaker and inputting that data into your receiver or pre/pro. If you are properly placing your mic, then the receiver will do it for you.
I've been thinking of having two center channel speakers powered by an amp to widen the center channel. I have an older Denon avr that doesn't have a way to widen center but does have a center pre out. To me it seems crazy to have these large TV's that have all the dialogue coming from a single tweeter point. The sound stage seems so small. Then you have to up the db of that center so you can hear it. Which then brings the sound stage forward from the TV. I would rather have a two maybe even three speakers so I can have a wall of dialogue from TV and then blend into right and left front speakers. My old Onkyo was a 5.1 and now I have an old Denon that has 7.1 and THX which I really like.
I learnt early on the centre channel is for voices so it's needed.
My tannoy centre speaker is Fig 1. I have 7.2 set up, and it's just overkill. It's really.
Setting up a good 5.1 Properly is just as good. I have 4 large speakers 55 cm x30cm x 35 12" bass drivers work for me. I got rid of 2 extra' fronts '.
Works better for my room, I guess it's what you like and want.
You are right. The setup is better for speakers.
At least my old Sony app has an amazing setup setting and the ability to switch to 2 ways, or 2.1, rear off, bass off. Two fronts on or just left and right.
Would it be best to use one of the exact same floor standing speakers used for L/R? For example use a Polk LSi15 vs the LSiC through an AT screen.
The center channel for movies was always there before stereo came. I agree with you on setting up one's system as well as the system is designed to make use of that center channel. Most of the time, most audiophile spend time off axis during theire listening sessions. Only music studio mixers stay on axis when listening, and drift off axis to check their mix. The rest of us are not that dedicated, and not in those circumstances where it really matters. I understand the center channels reason for being there and make great use of it...Even in a bedroom Bijou setup🐻
Btw I found the AVR at a pawn shop for 40$ and found infinity primus p362 on eBay in immaculate condition for 75$ I use dual 12 inch subs and I’m building a new center now but have an old kenwood se 32ht and a sound bar dedicated to center using line level and external amplifier, sounds good but it auto shuts off so I gotta find remote and turn it back on a lot
Well... as I do not have an acoustically transparent screen, I stay with my 4.1.4 setup for a few years longer. Guess, I'm one of the 2CH purists you mentioned 🙂
The centre channel does all the R+L (mono) signals the Dolby matrix steers the remaining R and L signals to the front L&R speakers, the R-L (out-of-phase) signals goes to dual mono surrounds using pro-logic type processing, pro-logic was based on the 70s quadraphonic analogue algorithm AFAIK. When listening to native 2 channel stereo or mono material of any sort, use pro-logic or bypass the cinema mode for normal stereo processing. I have a split system, so I use the centre and surrounds channels while listening to music via the main L+R speakers.
I am mostly a music person... with a 5.2.4 system. I find I like listening to unmixed music using a Yamaha CX A5100 in 11 channel stereo for up mixing 2 channel music... and Neural X for listening to up mixed 5.1 sources... sometimes i forget to turn on my effects amp and my center is not actually working... and find I dont miss it a ton... but I do like the extra depth and dispersion the surrounds give... so maybe I would be fine with a 4.2.4 system LOL... but yeah... mostly keep it on... and if you can use 3 identical speakers across the front - full disclosure mine are not identical... not even identical series of the same brand...all are Dali but I can not afford the Rubicon Vocal yet... so have a used Ikon Mk II for the time being and mostly it seems fine...
New cam or color correction? Looks good!
My speakers are Boston Acoustics VR965s and center is a VR920, it is a great setup. Love it, but when it comes to anything recorded in 2 channel that is how it gets played, no up mix for me. It sounds good to me, so I'm Happy.
I normally hate powered tower speakers but the vr965s are nice. You can find them used all day for $100 a pair which is a great deal. Just don't like the socks but they sound pretty good. I've owned a couple pair of them and run them in my gym.
I like center channels too. But I wish they wouldn't take up valuable real estate below the flatscreen. Sony had a flatscreen that buried the speaker behind the screen, and sometimes these flat screens have good speakers, and maybe they can be use for center speaker purposes although I'm not sure they have this versatility. I wish there were designs available to avoid using valuable space in the middle. Mounting a large center speaker above the flat screen is problematic. Any ideas to address this issue?
When I am moving around doing housework I will turn on party mode a mono mode spread across all speakers great sound everywhere
What if you want to put all. Three front speakers in the wall for home theatre? What do. You recommend? My walls have concrete and spray foam insulation behind them. I have a 135 inch screen, but could go bigger with behind speakers, not to mention people would no longer touch my speakers.
The center channel and surround rabbit hole is deep! I went back to 2.1!
As always another great informative video! When using a phantom center, should the L/R speakers be moved closer together? Dolby currently recommends 22-30 degrees (or 22-40 degrees depending on documentation).
I keep my mains more closely spaced than Dolby recommends. So if you are sitting 10ft away, place your mains 7 to 8 ft apart. This tightens the phantom center as well.
@@Audioholics Center / left right front channel are all centre to my setup, rest are surround and height channels.
How big is the audience, the bigger the front section needs to be, for all it need to be center/left right front! Surround and height speakers are a non issue, you don't need to be centred for them!
My only issue is, go i need more subwoofers in can here that it comes from the centre, i can hear that since i'm on ATMOS only. ( Yamaha WS 300) less than 50 square room.
I’m curious if anyone has heard the Martin Logan Motion XT C100 yet? Their approach is to not play the same frequencies through both midrange drivers. I haven’t found anyone in my area that has them on the showroom floor to demo. The XT’s are on my shortlist right now but a big purchase for me.
Hi Gene. I'm an old time audiophile for 60 years. (live in Sarasota). Two years ago I got a pair of Acoustat Electrostatic speakers and set them up with a sub. If I sat in the middle. I got a complete phantom 3rd channel. So much so that I would have sworn that really was a speaker there, instead of a wall! I Noticed it with some Frank Sinatra and Donald Fagerman recordings. Problem is, it's good for only one person. Fantastic Sound but you can't move your head. I'm now setting up a new system (for me ) with a pair of Yamaha NS2000 speakers and Lexicon components. And yes it's going to be 5.1 (or 5.2). Got a really good high end Jamo center channel speaker per the configuration in this video of yours. I have the SACD version of the James Taylor's "Hourglass" CD. It's 5.1 . And of course I like concerts and movies. It will be a little while before this new system is fully set up. I have 3 Lexicon manuals of around 200 pages each. Plus I'm setting up a DEQX Premate with FIR filtering. That will be for Pure 2.0. Thanks for all your great videos!
High end Jamo is an oxymoron
You are right and you are wrong. Before Jamo was purchased by Klipsch they made very high end products. Right now if my piece of crap center channel speaker was on the market, it would probably sell for several thousand dollars new. It’s a three way design and weighs about 40 pounds. Jamo was Most likely selling fine speakers at a financial loss.
I don't respect #6 people. (Obviously there are exceptions, some people's room set up just don't allow for Center channel placement and I get it) I used to be one of those people.
I finally dropped my anti-center channel, bias but it took a while. The musical immersion of the best 2.1 system I ever put together PALES in comparison to my current 7.2.4 system.
You are also correct about replacing my Center channel MTM
With they a center channel that also has a mid-range. The vocal/dialogue clarity went through the roof both in the primary seating position and off axis.
Really enjoy your no-nonsense pragmatic approach to things Gene.
I prop my center speaker on some tinker toys and the imaging is so clear, I can hear a star being born in a neighboring galaxy. Its so choice, if you have the means, I highly recommend it.
I would not be without my centre channel. But I always match the speaker to the left and right front surrounds and toe the centre channel in my case, so the sound appears to come from the screen since the speaker is below it by about 1 foot.
I've never really bothered with surround. Plus it would be expensive as I'd be perfectionist over it. That and life situations.
For me stereo has worked fine, but I would probably enjoy a surround sound experience of decent quality
I remember buying my first nice speaker 😭 infinity p363 floor standing, i had it as center channel and slowly added speakers, i couldnt imagine my system without the center :/
Hey gene I gotta a problem or question and I need a pros output or opinion, I have an Onkyo HT RC 260 (old I know) that I really like but I’m having trouble understanding why sometimes when It says 7.1 or 5.1 I have no center channel not always but also why I can’t find Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD? I have Dolby D and EX and only time I’ve seen TrueHD was during a DVD but some of the shows I stream do Atmos, I know my AVR isn’t capable but shouldn’t it be TrueHD then? Also why I can’t find Dolby Digital +? Also if Atmos is object based and they say it doesnt matter the amount of speakers then why do you need the upward firing speakers I mean I get why they are there but why is it required to do Atmos? Ya see what I’m saying?
Meridian's use of Trifield for... ages... is an example of LCR used in audiophile-level equipment.
Lexicon calls it Panorama in my DC2. Love it for movies. 2 channel exclusively for music.
Unique 3.3 surround system.
Can you tell me how things work with the Denon brand? What should be simple the sound coming from the TV the Denon.
Hey Gene, nice job on this one. This is the truth.
Truth?
What are Audiophiles? Old 1970 people on old gear !
Understanding 2022 codecs, too hard, they need switches, real source !
I'm a computer scientist by trade and I'd wager I understand codecs better than you. You ever hear the lobing effect from a horizontally oriented center channel speaker? No codec will fix it.
I built a spandex screen and sit 10ft away , can accommodate a 7ft spread .
Behind are my stereo speakers .
Great imaging , L/R/U/D voices and effects , I think are more natural as you're in the screen , there are no distractions .
I am a single listener who enjoys a phantom centre .
I can't get the sound to come from the picture, I need to turn the center channel volume down because it clearly comes through under the tv
Gene I run a 7.1.4 setup and my imaging is great. The center channel makes a huge difference just don't buy a cheap speaker. My yamaha rx8a does a great job Just had to dial it in to my taste.
How about using a main speaker as the center and positioning it the same as the fronts? Do you really need a dedicated center?
I skipped the center channel in my setup because I don't want to spend a small fortune on one that sonically compares to my fronts, when the room correction (RoomPerfect) on my stereo integrated amp already focuses the voices perfectly in the center of the speakers. Also, my stereo amp is high-end, whereas my receiver is just mid-tier with a tonal signature I hate (choices were limited during Covid). Voices are important enough that I want my best equipment dealing with them.
phantom center ftw. running without center for 20+ years. with full range L and R at the edges of the screen, panning and presence is just better.
My center channel speaker is a Polk Audio Signature Series S35 Center Channel Speaker. The driver layout isn't at all like any of your examples. It has a single tweeter in the center and three mids on each side of the tweeter. I have a 7.1 system where there are two "height" speakers. My receiver has a feature called "dialog lift". That allows feeding a selectable amount of the center channel speaker feed to the height speakers. It can be adjusted to make dialog seem even more "centered" on the video monitor.
So what about horn loaded speakers like Klipsch and JBL does the orientation matters with horn loaded drivers?!
I tried the center spread and it sounds way better - pretty much as you desrbided it, almost seamless. I used to always listen in 5.1, before I purchased a pair of PSB X2T. Since than, I alway listen to stereo music in 2.1. Somehow it sounds more right, when the two speakers create a wall of sound in front of me. Besides, my side speakers are not at all so good, as the fronts.
🤣 On the floor?! Who does that?!
I have a weird solution.
I stuck it to a heavy aluminium laptop stand that has height and tilt adjustment. It almost looks like the speaker is floating under the TV.
I put is as close to the bottom of the TV (wall mounted) with tweeter angled towards my ears in the ideal sitting position.
Adjusted the "centre spread", level matched, and time aligned. Works okay.
I still wonder how much better a matching tower speaker to my left and right as a centre speaker will sound... I also wonder what to do with the extra tower speaker.
At this point in my audio Journey I’ve decided to go with identical speakers for every channel. 7.x.x With an OLED tv, mounted just above the bed layer.
If I get tired of the height discrepancy of the screen being over the speakers. I’ll remove the center channel, lower the tv between left and right, and do phantom center 6.x.x
AWEsome, vid. I do like my CC. But what i did in my main theater was get 2 full range speakers. They hav 1 horn, 1 4" mid & 2 8" woofers and they r about 7ft apart. And they sound a heck of alot better than a front placed CC.. These speakers r not as tall as my mains. But i tuned them and everything is on point. Ppl who came by never seen a split CC b4. But was impressed by the sound. I dt use any of those Auto Calibrations they jus dt sound right to Me. I'm Old Skool more hands on with a Sharp Ear for sound. I've heard systems with huge expensive equipment and they dt really sound open. Unless the Volume is at ear splitting levels. Which i hate. I'm Not impressive with Ppl playing their system Loud. Thinking Loud is better. Nope, Clarity is to me. I want to hear my Highs, Mids & Bass clear not muffled. 👍
I'm with Floyd Toole on this subject. He largely abandoned dedicated one-seat listening because it doesn't realistically fit his lifestyle and most folks' unless a dedicated listening room. He prefers living with fine listening from multiple seats in his room/area; fine listening over an area rather than one seat. I fully subscribe to that, as I like to sit in various places, or even stand. That can be achieved with a well designed, well calibrated multi-channel system...including a center. I agree with the host that the best results come from identical LCRs. But LCRs don't have to be behind AT screen if they are powerful bookshelf size, especially if properly installed in a very good/sturdy baffle wall design. Room correction can easily compensate for the boundary effect and provide excellent/powerful linear response down to 70Hz to 80Hz.
Rarely mentioned, except by Anthony Grimani, but the final calibration step of delays so that a phantom image is centered between each of the LCRs AND the LCRs and the surrounds makes a huge difference in 2-ch and multi-channel performance. It's not uncommon to play gated pink noise between a pair and the phantom image be off, despite what your tape measure says. A shift usually of only a tenth of a foot or so makes a complete shift of phantom image location. This takes some time and effort, but really pays off and permits listening to upmixed or multi-channel sources from multiple seats in your area because that center channel is now an asset without degrading the L/R listening.