that line right there was a combination of how Ezri AND Jadzia looked at Worf. and that's saying a LOT .... considering the relationship both Ezri and Jadzia had/have with Benjamin Lafayette Sisko.
That's the first thing I thought of when she pointing out the corruption. All the suffering Worf has gone through over they years because of the empire's decay.
Luke Jolly That would be a fantastic plot point! He's likely like that because he was an outsider on earth who only followed Klingon traditions by the book where as most Klingons in their society are very selective in what is honorable and very hypocritical. By not growing up in a society that betrayed their own teachings, he actually is the epitome of Klingon Honor.
@Al Swedgen Worf respected Martok for what happened when Worf & Garak ended up in that Dominion prison camp with Martok (and Julian) midway thru S5. he proved himself in battle, and maintained that afterwards.
@@InfernosReaper I think Kirk's famous quote goes something like, "Klingon bastards! You've killed your own empire through toleration of corruption at the highest levels of government for the convenience of maintaining a cultural fantasy that no longer applied to the sociopolitical landscape you currently live in!"
Ezri: "Worf, you are the most honorable and decent man that I have ever met-" Worf: *By Kahless, do I love this woman still...* Ezri: "And if you're willing to tolerate men like Gowron... then what hope is there for the Empire?" Worf: *Mission accepted. Assassinate Gowron in front of everyone.*
Part of the cynical analogy to real life is the belief/reality of the leaders being alien shapeshifters. (Which in our world is an escapism from our human responsibility.)
@@andreasvogler1875 many times we wish there was such a simple solution to circumvent the beurocracy that protects corruption, but that would also slowly but inevitabley lead toward a martial state.
Ignoring Picard, I don’t think much changed. Martin was always a hesitant leader, so by Klingon standards I don’t think he’d be able to root out corruption. Worf bought the empire a generation or two, and the only reason it can expand is that all of its comparable competitors are dead. Eventually it and the federation will have to come to blows over whether it should have the right to sustain itself on the enslavement of galactic refugees
Ezri made her case in brilliant fashion. Greatful to Worf for making her a member of his house. Made her case and asked Wolf two questions he knew the answers to. Give him a truthful compliment. Nicely done by Nicole DeBeor.
She had a tough job coming in for one year at the end of a 7 year series, and in essence replacing one of the regular cast. But the writers did a great job tying her in to overall seasons-long arcs as well as exploring how Worf would react to s new Dax.
@@BillinHungary I thought she was amazing! I totally bought that she had all these memories and personas and didn’t know where Ezri ended and Dax began. Heck, often we she talks to Worf or Sisko, I just hear Jadzia, Nicole nailed her tone of voice and expression.
Makes one wonder why Worf never approached Troi about it. Seriously, think about it. All Worf's talks are with Picard, who rightly had to look at the good of Starfleet and have Worf balance the two on a literal razor's edge. Think about if he had approached Troi (let's pretend she's written well) and how much different things might have been.
@@SSPerfectChaosRCT to be fair .... Picard was the one in the Klingon chancellor's chambers when the truth about Worf's "discommendation" was revealed ... and it was not a matter that was even spoke of (aloud) outside of Picard and Worf. there is a chance that Worf spoke about it to Deanna to a point while they were dating ... but there wasn't much that could be done with it as things stood during the TNG days, due to the influence his house had on the High Council.
@@inventorking9124 it took Ezri about that long to be a small degree of comfortable in the Dax skin she wore with the symbiont she was carrying. Early S7 Ezri never could have had THIS conversation with Worf, nor would he had even spoken to her about it.
Ezri really showed her worth here. As much as I loved and missed Jadzia she did view the Klingons with rose colored glasses. This is something that only Ezri could do and she nailed it. The empire has been dying from internal corruption since the moment we first saw it in TNG. Only by Worf no longer going along with it and taking a stand are the Klingons finally saved from themselves.
Apparently, Terry Farrell left the show because of animosity between her and the production staff. But at the same time, the character change works so well here between Jadzia to Ezri, you have to wonder if it was planned from the start.
@@dmanc85 False. She only got casted on Becker after she quit on DS9 due to her demands on getting an equal pay raise to her male co-stars for the final season being met.
Once I saw more of the Klingons in TNG and DS9, it couldn't be helped but notice how contradictory they really were. There are the Klingon legends, ideals, the stuff that Worf took to heart because he never lived in the Klingon Empire when he was young. When you see more and more of actual Klingons that lived in the Empire, there is a very stark contrast to what is the ideal compared to how they actually lived. And this is actually true with a lot of Earth's own history. There are societies where there is a certain set of ideals that represent them, but in reality it's not quite that. Today the Samurai are seen as honorable warriors, faithful to their feudal lords. In reality, during they were complete opposites. Loyalty was often discarded, betrayal was rampant. Family would kill each other over leadership of the clan. We think of medieval era Crusaders, knights in holy orders fighting for God to reclaim the Holy Land. In reality a bunch of those guys just took up the cross to go to war, kill, loot, and grab some land. They were neither holy and their actions would raise the eyebrows of Jesus.
So, would the wisdom be, do not let myths override one's perspective of reality ? In addition, nothing is ever black and white? I wonder what you think. But for my opinion. I think there is an abundance of grey zones, no matter how ideal the society. That is not a negative, it is to be taken into consideration and instruct us on how to be as humane as possible and to improve that society.
Very true. Its just annoying the show was continually hesitant to acknowledge this. I wish they had actually delved into the hypocrisy, the contradiction of a warrior society being so scientifically advanced, and how their code and rules never works. I think DS9 really did this well, especially with Kor developing dementia and getting a bunch of ppl killed, or Martok’s struggles with command. It seemed to acknowledge how stupid the Klingon rules were and didn’t praise or romanticise all this traditional dogma like some of the Worf TNG episodes did. Those TNG Klingon episodes were always so annoying becuz the writers didn’t want to approach the problems of the Klingon’s as a society
@@Joleyn-Joy Not true, this picture of the noble knight/crusaders is a very common theme in fiction and computer games. There are countless examples really.
Well to be fair, it was when Sisko talked to him that his death was inevitable. Even back then when I first saw it, I knew Worf would kill him, I just didn't see him passing the buck Lol.
I was never a huge fan of DS9, but I liked the characters of Jadzia and Ezri. She makes an excellent point, largely in line with Edmund Burke's famous quote: "All that in necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."
That was massively skillful in bringing out Worf's leadership spirit. Breaking him out of his misguided authority worship and reminding him of the essence beneath the mythology. This includes the buildup with letting him ponder the awful prospect of the empire dying. Then contrasting it. Star Trek can easily become overinspiring, a cynical word that but describes the grim reality. Because you need many friends of equally good character to make a dent in the corrupt system.
What I really like about this scene is that it's the writers, mainly Ron Moore, looking back at all the Klingon episodes and having Ezri basically tell the audience the running theme of all those story arcs.
I think it was why Worf could never stay in the Empire. He has a romanticized view from being an outsider and when he finally gets an opportunity to be among his people, he finds them lacking.
as Dax, she's probably seen empires rise and fall, so it's slightly ironic that while Ezri herself is barely out of academy, she is speaking with the wisdom of 9 hosts and the sweetness of the girl that she is.
@@davidturner3704 This is probably part of why Michael Dorn was reportedly unhappy with Star Trek Online's depiction of Worf (the only post-Nemesis Trek project that he's been involved with). Besides his aspirations of Worf becoming a Starfleet captain, he knows Worf wouldn't join the Empire.
Counselor Ezri with dat real talk swag. All humor aside she essentially summed up everything Klingon since Chang had Gorkon killed. We heard about Gowron rewriting the history books of his ascension to the chancellorship. Kahless I would probably be spinning in his grave. Or at least on Boreth.
Kahless would be proud, and did the same thing himself. Who ever is in power gets to write history. "The Savage Curtain" episode of the original series, showed Kahless as his tyrannical self.
The version of Kahless in "The Savage Curtain" was produced by the Excalibans from images and opinions inside Kirk's head about what Kahless was like and wouldn't be an actual representation of what Kahless was like.
I see your point on the Excalibans influence. Though Kirk viewed Kahless as such, it does not negate how cruel Kahless was viewed by non-Klingon species. It instead serves as an example on how Klingons are observed to be tyrannical by other Alpha Quadrant members.
The opinions and views of other Alpha Quadrant species is entirely irrelevant to the Klingon worldview and shouldn't influence how Klingons choose to govern themselves. (Except when they choose someone like Picard as their arbiter.)
Kem'pec had his moments, but he still allowed Duras's father to get away with the Khitomer massacre simply because the house had too much influence in the high council to oppose.
0:54 - nice of the writers to include this - this is basically a nod to the fans complaining that Worf had to cover up for the High Council... ... ... TWICE!!!!!!
@Howyaduing maybe it has something to do with Ezri being a Counselor. She has a way of telling somebody something they don't want to hear, knowing that its her professional opinion. It also doesn't hurt that the Dax symbiont has Jadzhia's memories, so Ezri can tap into that as well.
@@jeffburnham6611 Indeed, there's hints here of Ezri's perception of the Klingon Empire from before she was joined, which position was further solidified by the memories of Curzon and Jadzia that she now has. She has a unique perspective of a century worth of being close to Klingons, but still being an outsider looking in.
Between Ezri's connection to the Dax symbiont, and her connection to Jadzia's memories of her marriage to Worf ... Ezri probably knew more about the Klingon Empire than most Klingons NOT at that table for 2.
This was a great scene not just because of how it put it out there how the Empire really is but also because it really drove home that Ezri isn't Jadzia. Jadzia would never have said that, I am not sure if she would have agreed with it. There is also the fallout from this scene. It's all but certain that this argument from Ezri led to Worf challenging and killing Gowron and making Martok King Klingon. With a single one minute speech, Ezri Dax changed the course of the Klingon Empire.
Jadzia for sure wouldn't have said it this way. As Ezri said .... Jadzia and Curzon weren't willing to be skeptical about the Empire's flaws. but, knowing what Benjamin had told Worf .... AND knowing what was at stake .... Jadzia would have also told Worf to kill him in ritualistic combat, just with a different message.
Ezri Dax was one of the best additions to DS9. The juxtaposition that she brought to Jadzia was an incredible flavour to the whole mix, and it was criminal that the character was robbed of more time by having the show cancelled.
@@eren34558 It wasn't cancelled. It seems seven seasons was pretty much the requisite run for Paramount series. I don't think it could have gone on more than another season anyway, which would have made for another season (mid-7th to mid-8th) pretty much what they crammed into the full seventh, plus a bit more exposition on the characters and internal rebellion on Cardassia. Not so much painted into the corner as having just a touch more paint in the can than necessary for the room so it's best not to start another. That and budget resources were going into Voyager.
@eren8455 at argue it ended where it should have, sure Ezri in particular could have been helped a lot by another season, she was brought in to replace Jadzia after her actress didn't sign on for the 7th season. (Apparently due to bts sexism so there's that) but the show as a whole would have suffered from being stretched and stretched to keep going. Bear in mind a season in the 90's wouldn't have meant 4-14 episodes it would mean 20-26. Most of the actors had already poured 7 years into the show, heck Nana Visitor and Alexander Siddig, got married, had a kid and got divorced. I think the actors and writers and producers knew where they wanted it to end, and brought it in strong. None of that Lost bs of just beating a dead horse till its a pulp. And for only having one season I think Ezri was still a really strong character. Just with less total material than the others
Considering that Ezri has the memories and opinions of Curzon who negotiated the peace treaty with the Klingons decades before and Jadzia who was very accepting of Klingon culture, but who also saw how easily Gowron was lead to abandoning Curzon's treaty by changeling Martok, I think she (Ezri) has a unique perspective on the deterioration of the Klingon Empire. The deterioration is also depicted in Gowron's change from TNG to DS9. He visibly detested the Council letting Worf accept the blame for Duras's treason and though he couldn't restore Worf's honor then, he did so once Duras's influence had been eliminated. He also stopped D'Ghor from killing Quark in an early DS9 episode. Eventually he succumbed to political influence lead by changeling Martok, that ultimately resulted in him turning on Worf again when he did not agree with attacking Cardassia.
As much as I was not pleased with the latest Dax host, this was a moment of perfection. A Hard Truth about a situation where she had the courage to say to someone who needs to not only hear it, but act on it.
I would have liked to have one more season with Nicole De Boer as Ezri, there was so much they could have done with her, but they ran out of time. But no disrespect to Terry Farrel...
@@pauls3604 Definitely. Both versions of the character were good in their own ways, but we really only did scratch the surface on Ezri, which is a shame.
Sometimes it takes someone who doesn't see things the way you do to help you acknowledge that a much needed change needs to happen. Kurzon was great friends with 3 old Klingon warriors. Jadzia knew Kurzon and once she had his memories through the symbiote, she considered his friends her friends. Jadzia, like Kurzon, was blinded to the troubles of the Klingon Empire much like Worf was. Ezri was a breath of fresh air in her views on the empire. She was respectful, yet didn't pull punches. Given that Worf being raised by Sergei and Helena instead of by other Klingons, he is able to see the truth behind Ezri's words. He helped put Gowron into power as the chancellor by killing Duras in an act of revenge for his dead mate. Gowron barely kept power during the Klingon Civil War, again thanks to Worf. How does Gowron thank Worf? When it's convenient, the weasel throws the House of Mogh under the bus along with a number of other houses. Worf was a more honorable Klingon, even when that honor was under fire, than the entire Klingon High Council. Gowron became a problem for the Klingons as a whole and needed to be removed.
I remember how her speech resonated with me at the time. If you think about it the empire also was very stagnant for many decades which is why her words ring so true
This is the writers of the show realizing they wrote the Klingons into a corner: Though the Klingon-centered episodes of DS9 were great, they also flanderized them as honor-obsessed feudal warriors/space Vikings with not much else. Compare them to the Cardassians, who were given quite a complex culture, history and political landscape. The Cardassians resolved their problems with a revolution that, at first, originated out of the Dominion's indifference to their wounded pride and constituted yet another attempt to restore the Cardassian Empire to its former glory, but gradually developed into a quest to renew Cardassian society and reconcile the sins and mistakes of the past. The Klingons resolved theirs when Gowron's vanity nearly crippled their fleet and Worf killed him in a duel, giving Martok the chancellorship. Don't get me wrong, I love the Klingons in DS9, but the more they developed one aspect of their characterization, the more their entire world building suffered. That's basically what Ezri's saying.
That’s a really interesting observation. But I do disagree that the writers painted themselves in a corner. I think (by happenstance or design) they created the perfect analogy of an arrested culture. It’s fair to say that at one point they were a far more nuanced society (ENT: Judgement) but they allowed their warrior ethos and honour code to become all-pervasive. Ultimately, that led to a powerful and militaristic society, but one that became far too rigid and unwieldy to adapt to social evolution, allowing for the slow creep of moral stagnation. (I think Sparta or imperial Japan would be an apt real-world comparison) By unyieldingly upholding those precepts, warriors like Worf were complicit in the rise of political opportunists like Gowron, who deftly took advantage of the cumbersome machine of state to satisfy their own ambitions. Worf has been grappling with this for years (starting, perhaps, at his own acceptance of discommendation ‘for the good of the empire’) and I think Ezri finally woke him to that reality in this scene. That’s a pretty long-winded way of saying that although it may appear that the Klingons were depicted as one-dimensional archetypes by DS9, I think it’s a pretty interesting case study into societies that refuse to adapt to change.
(1) I loved Ezri from the start, cuz I knew it wasn't Nicole's fault that Terry left after S6. (2) either Dax would have told Worf to do what he did ... the messages would have been drastically different. like Ezri said, she was more skeptical about the Empire than Jadzia ... so she took that path. along with reminding Worf of his own history with Gowron, Jadzia would have told him exactly what Benjamin did, regarding the thin line holding the Dominion off the Federation as it was.
Sigh. Yet another piece of Star Trek that only became more relevant and analogous to real life issues as time passed. I should be inspired by the good writing and all, but I'm too busy being depressed because it's still such an apt summary of the world we actually live in, even almost two decades after this episode aired.
Do not lose hope. Depression is okay, but you found us. We're not alone. We're all working, and we're all going to find a way towards one another to overcome this. Our culture lets us know in advance how it evolves, through its myths, its stories, its art, its nightmares. Take the pieces and the parts you find resonate with you, and bring them together and share them with others, and start to make your own myths, stories, art, and nightmares to share, because you will soon find that there is a lot of hope just under the surface. Only, we do not all see how we share these hopes beneath the surface, but we are all starting to learn this and act on it, the same way that the people who came before us learned and acted. We have a pervasive and daunting challenge before us. Our enemy is the monster inside us, the monster we all know we are. No other monster taunts us and destroys us than our own reluctance to admit we are monsters. But if you can admit that, if you can make it a point to face your own fear-making, your own terror-sending, your own complicity in what you hold is evil, your own corruption inside, and own that for *you first*, then we will be ready to tear down the flimsy walls and screens and curtains keeping us afraid of the people who want us to fear them more than our own selves. You have to do this. I have to do this. Those people over there have to do this. We have to live and act so that the people who follow us also learn they have to do this. We are not alone in having to do this, which means we can also start working together, with one another, to live truly free of shame, to walk truly free of fear. We are not going to like admitting that, maybe, each one of us "deserves to die." We are not going to like living after owning our personal, individual evils. But we are not going to be alone when we open up to one another and forgive the past. We have to stop being willing to tolerate our own bullshit, or we're never going to see how we are all, each of us, sharing the same inner struggle.
@@Polusplagchnos Reminds me of a line from the Return of the King It’s all wrong By rights we shouldn’t even be here. But we are. It’s like in the great stories Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were, and sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy. How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad happened. But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn’t. Because they were holding on to something. Frodo: What are we holding on to, Sam? Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
@@Polusplagchnos Also consider the amusing thematic parallel of Gowron being a changeling and some people in our world believing that their leaders are shapeshifting aliens, as a means to go into denial of and reject responsibility for our human inner monstrosity.
That's why I think both the Democratic and the Republican Party should die because honestly people are like sports fans when it comes to the parties they stick with them no matter who their candidate is out of some sense of pride it creates too much of a US versus them mentality and to be honest the whole system needs a facelift sorry I'm bringing up American politics but I don't think I'm wrong though I probably should look at other countries that works similarly whether they have multiple political parties or just one governing body system like they just choose a candidate there's no separation I think Norway does that
"Who was the last leader of the high council you respected?" "Azetbur, daughter of Gorkon. She pursued peace with the federation despite those within it and within the empire conspired to murder her father."
Unfortunately in an expanded Universe novel Azetbur was assassinated by a Klingon Separatist and it was decreed by the new regime that Klingon Women were forbidden to ever be elected as Chancellor.
This and her brief backstory with her family. It was nice for the writers to tie her into background, just so we could see a small part of what made her want to join Starfleet.
This conversation reminds me of the speech Kirk gave to Mirror Spock in "Mirror Mirror", which convinced him to consider rebelling against the Terran Empire. Like Ezri did with Worf, Kirk appealed to the one trait of Mirror Spock's that he knew he could trust on - his logic - and wove a tapestry of truth about the Empire and its inevitable fall around that, to the point where - like Worf with this conversation - Spock was unable to argue against it. I wonder if the writers had that speech in mind when they wrote this one?
Boy, did the DS9 writing staff know how to make lemons out of lemonade. Producers: "We botched Terry Farrell's contract negotiations and she isn't coming back for season 7. Figure it out." Writers: "As soon as we're done knocking this situation out of the park, we are going to smack you." 🤓
If you were trying to compliment the writers you got the expression backwards... I thought you were passive aggressively insulting them for a moment lol, make lemons out of lemonade.
Deep down she had to have known, maybe even consciously realized, what her speech to Worf would lead him to do if he accepted her view. I mean, the previous two Dax hosts were well involved with Klingon society, with one being an Ambassador to Q'onos, the other closer to Worf than anyone else had ever been, and their memories would certainly lead Ezri to know he'd react how he did if he agreed with her. Hell, had Jadzia still been around, she'd probably have challenged Gowron herself if Worf didn't.
jimbojackson2 sadly true, but I'm not sure the Empire was a better alternative. I'd ask the citizens of Alderaan for their opinion but, well they have been strangely quiet lately.
William Costigan Probably just some imperial blockade blocking transmissions across the holonet from Alderaan I doubt anything bad has happened. In fact if you would like to visit I have a corellian freighter ready for transport with 10,000 credit fee for a hyperspace journey to Alderaan.
Sorry, but I thought this was a Star Trek thread, you know where people don't have superpowers or other fantasy like things, and we talk about real political issues (or rather, their science fiction mirrors) No offense, but don't bring up that Disnefied, oh we have to do something to compete with Star Trek's well established political science fiction, here.
The Klingons have always always been a hilarious melange of internal contradictions and hypocrisies. I'm still amused by the idea that a society that would rather headbutt each other and eat raw meat all day, even achieved space exploration in the first place. They blather about honour, while routinely engaging in unfair fights. Even Martok thinks the wholesale slaughter of Cardassia Prime's civilians shouldn't stop a celebratory drink for their "victory". The Klingons would have been more fundamentally interesting, if they were essentially a society living in the stagnant, decaying remains of a long-lost golden age. A fallen civilization, making war with spaceships they no longer know how to build new ones of, built with technologies they no longer understand, in an era of their civilization where they were more focused on knowledge, science, and technology. Perhaps even an era the Empire itself has forgotten due to time, or memory holed as they now find it weak and pathetic. Imagine if it turned out Kahless was actually an ancient Klingon dictator, who essentially purged the Klingon Enlightenment, and refocused the Klingons into becoming nothing but a warrior race - but it's so long ago the Klingons themselves don't remember it, and simply revere Kahless and his teachings as they remember no other way.
Whether it was her intention or not, and I'm inclined to believe she didn't intend for Worf to kill Gowron, she signed Gowron's death warrant with those last lines.
I'm sure Ezri had enough Jadzia and Curzon knowledge inside her to know PRECISELY what her words meant, regarding Gowron. and she didn't care, because she KNEW what was at stake.
I would have added somewhere there "Word, you are duty and honor made manifest. I know, and deep down you too know, that the Empire does not deserve you."
How insane that dozens of episodes covering Klingon politics, spanning multiple tv shows and more than ten years - all broken down in one scene that makes so much sense and goes so hard. What incredible writing
That final line is what cinched it. Simultaneously it rewards and validates Warf’s honor, while expressing that in truth the only honorable action would be to stand up against Galron’s corruption. And she does it all genuinely. It’s not a manipulation. It’s just the truth.
I've always wondered why it took ezri to be the one dax to truly point out the core flaw of the Klingon empire, thankfully martok made it an honorable empire when he became it's new leader
Both of the Klingon main characters - Worf, and Belanna Torrez, were the best; truthful, honorable, loyal to their shipmates and brave. Both were treated by other Klingons as cowards without honor. Meanwhile the Klingons they're dealing with are deceitful, weaseling, cowardly bullies. I never understood the ethos of warrior cultures who obsess about honor in combat, yet they subsist on thievery, and thuggery and slavery, persecuting the poorest and weakest.
It really seems like DS9 creative team knew on some level that they were among the last of their era of Star Trek and were trying to tie off larger, cross-series arcs, like the Worf-Klingon stuff that began in TNG. It is absolutely stunning to think how much better this show is than anything that has come after.
The sad thing is, Gowron wasn't corrupt or evil, he was someone who shouldn't have been leading an interstellar empire. He could be reasonable, and was honorable, but he was also hot-tempered, arrogant, and a poor strategist. Gowron would not have killed the Klingon Empire intentionally, but it would've died under his watch.
I disagree with that assessment, even if it is a year old. Gowron was a politician of his era, obsessed with consolidating power whether be through the interrogation of a tribunal or with the disrupter of a ship. He did possess a sense of honor, but he seemed capable of contorting his belief of honor to suit his own interests. He refused to entertain the idea of Kahless’ return, even before it was exposed as a hoax. He refused to respect Worf’s decision not join the invasion of Cardassia, because to do so would have compromised his own interests. I mean, he literally sanctioned the invasion of Cardassia and authorized ambush tactics (lying in wait is very much dishonorable) and continued to push for aggressive expansion up *until* he risked a two-front war, jeopardizing his own interests. Here, Gowron uses honor as a veil to again advance his interests, claiming a warrior as loyal and fierce as Martok should obey and win, regardless of the circumstances. We know this to be a cop-out for his true purpose; eliminate any threat to his dominance. So in conclusion, was Gowron capable of being honorable? At times. Was he an honorable man? For the most part, no.
I didn't really care for Ezri Dax in the show, up until this very moment. And it completely changed my opinion of the character. Like jingoism with America, the Klingons viewed themselves as honorable and proud warriors, when in reality, in both cases, one's "patriotism/honor" is an excuse for any number of dishonorable and unpatriotic acts carried out in the name of the "greater good". Powerful people in the depths of corruption use the word "honor" to convince Klingons they are doing good deeds as they carry out objectively dishonorable ones, and ignore the obvious dishonor of their higher ups. (Even in Lower Decks we saw this in recent episodes, and that was a great bit of continuity at play). Same with America. Ever since 9/11, tell someone they're a "patriot" and all sorts of evil deeds become OK because it's "necessary". Both show corruption at the highest levels being excused away as something it, by definition, can never be, because accepting the harsh truth that your empire/country is on the downward slide to self-destruction is more painful than continuing down that path, to the bitter end.
First time i actually herd a moral arguement im star trek rooted in reason rather than emotion. Is it better the empire devolve into civil war then tolerate corruption. This was the dilemma in the Empire for some time. General Martok presented an opportunity they never had before. A competent successor who did not want the power. If Worf siezed power he would have become part of the problem using violenece for personal gain. But by handing it off to martok, he secured the throne in honorable. And set an example that a true warrior does whats best for the Empire by self sacrfice not self indulgence.
Good speakers can motivate good speakers. Worf was motivated to say the things that needed saying in order to bring the problem to the attention of Gowron. Gowron, in turn, took the necessary steps that cleared the way for the problem to be solved, even at the cost of sacrificing Gowron’s life.
0:48 She's got a very good point. Chancellor K'mpec screwed Worf over by trying to cover up Duras's involvement with the Romulans out of fear of a civil war (which ended up happening anyway) and Gowron was a sniveling politician who threw Worf to the dogs the first chance he got.
gowron was a savvy politician for the empire he was in charge of, the issue was that the empire itself could only be led at that point by someone like gowron, anyone else would have fallen to the various sideswipes from the corrupted houses. Problem is that gowron grew to only care about his position and not the overall health of the empire so his decisions became erratic and detrimental and so, Worf took off his combadge and went for a stroll.
Ezri: "You are the most honorable and decent man that I have ever met."
Worf: wow she's making a lot of sense here
You just gotta say honor around worf a lot
The truth is ..... nothing Ezri said was remotely debatable. going back probably to the days of TOS .... her assessment is spot-on without flaw.
that line right there was a combination of how Ezri AND Jadzia looked at Worf.
and that's saying a LOT .... considering the relationship both Ezri and Jadzia had/have with Benjamin Lafayette Sisko.
@@dhinton1 Gorkon, worf and martok. Most honorable Klingons
@@JohnDoe-sl6di yeah. that sums up the list.
This scene. This scene made Ezri as a necessary character after Jadzia died.
This is a story arc that had been building since early TNG. Man what a great pay off.
That's the first thing I thought of when she pointing out the corruption. All the suffering Worf has gone through over they years because of the empire's decay.
V Guyver One could even argue the corruption of the Empire formed Worf into the individual that was needed to fix it.
Luke Jolly That would be a fantastic plot point!
He's likely like that because he was an outsider on earth who only followed Klingon traditions by the book where as most Klingons in their society are very selective in what is honorable and very hypocritical.
By not growing up in a society that betrayed their own teachings, he actually is the epitome of Klingon Honor.
V Guyver Exactly
@Al Swedgen Worf respected Martok for what happened when Worf & Garak ended up in that Dominion prison camp with Martok (and Julian) midway thru S5. he proved himself in battle, and maintained that afterwards.
Ezri: "The Empire is dying..."
Worf (inwardly): Urrr...
Ezri: "... and it deserves to die."
Worf (inwardly): OW!
somewhere in the afterlife, Kirk was watching and thinking "I like her"
This is one of my favourite scenes in DS9
@@InfernosReaper I think Kirk's famous quote goes something like, "Klingon bastards! You've killed your own empire through toleration of corruption at the highest levels of government for the convenience of maintaining a cultural fantasy that no longer applied to the sociopolitical landscape you currently live in!"
Ezri: "Worf, you are the most honorable and decent man that I have ever met-"
Worf: *By Kahless, do I love this woman still...*
Ezri: "And if you're willing to tolerate men like Gowron... then what hope is there for the Empire?"
Worf: *Mission accepted. Assassinate Gowron in front of everyone.*
Part of the cynical analogy to real life is the belief/reality of the leaders being alien shapeshifters. (Which in our world is an escapism from our human responsibility.)
Not assassinate. Kill in honorable combat. There is a difference.
@@andreasvogler1875 MASSIVE difference.
@@andreasvogler1875 many times we wish there was such a simple solution to circumvent the beurocracy that protects corruption, but that would also slowly but inevitabley lead toward a martial state.
@@Dowlphin You must mean the lizard people
And with a few words, Ezri Dax changed the course of history.
Ignoring Picard, I don’t think much changed. Martin was always a hesitant leader, so by Klingon standards I don’t think he’d be able to root out corruption. Worf bought the empire a generation or two, and the only reason it can expand is that all of its comparable competitors are dead. Eventually it and the federation will have to come to blows over whether it should have the right to sustain itself on the enslavement of galactic refugees
Damn Star Trek used to be so good.
What people don't realize is that its often small words or gestures that tend to reverberate the loudest in changing the world we live in
@@samuraitabernac3050 "Enslavement of galactic refugees?" Is that a Discovery-verse thing?
@@samuraitabernac3050 Actually the Klingon Empire is ultimately absorbed into the Federation...
Ezri made her case in brilliant fashion. Greatful to Worf for making her a member of his house. Made her case and asked Wolf two questions he knew the answers to. Give him a truthful compliment. Nicely done by Nicole DeBeor.
She had a tough job coming in for one year at the end of a 7 year series, and in essence replacing one of the regular cast. But the writers did a great job tying her in to overall seasons-long arcs as well as exploring how Worf would react to s new Dax.
@@BillinHungary I thought she was amazing! I totally bought that she had all these memories and personas and didn’t know where Ezri ended and Dax began. Heck, often we she talks to Worf or Sisko, I just hear Jadzia, Nicole nailed her tone of voice and expression.
Makes one wonder why Worf never approached Troi about it. Seriously, think about it. All Worf's talks are with Picard, who rightly had to look at the good of Starfleet and have Worf balance the two on a literal razor's edge. Think about if he had approached Troi (let's pretend she's written well) and how much different things might have been.
@@SSPerfectChaosRCT to be fair .... Picard was the one in the Klingon chancellor's chambers when the truth about Worf's "discommendation" was revealed ... and it was not a matter that was even spoke of (aloud) outside of Picard and Worf. there is a chance that Worf spoke about it to Deanna to a point while they were dating ... but there wasn't much that could be done with it as things stood during the TNG days, due to the influence his house had on the High Council.
@@inventorking9124 it took Ezri about that long to be a small degree of comfortable in the Dax skin she wore with the symbiont she was carrying. Early S7 Ezri never could have had THIS conversation with Worf, nor would he had even spoken to her about it.
This scene has stuck and resonated with me over the years. She hit the nail on the head.
Through time and space to here and now....
Through time and space to here and now....
That’s a state we are in right now
Exactly. Ideals mean nothing if they aren't enforced at every level.
Ezri really showed her worth here. As much as I loved and missed Jadzia she did view the Klingons with rose colored glasses. This is something that only Ezri could do and she nailed it.
The empire has been dying from internal corruption since the moment we first saw it in TNG. Only by Worf no longer going along with it and taking a stand are the Klingons finally saved from themselves.
hell, since before TNG even. Apparently, the last *good* chancellor died back in Star Trek 6
Apparently, Terry Farrell left the show because of animosity between her and the production staff. But at the same time, the character change works so well here between Jadzia to Ezri, you have to wonder if it was planned from the start.
@@joeschembrie9450 That, and she went to go work on a show (Becker) she thought would be more popular. It was not.
@@dmanc85 False. She only got casted on Becker after she quit on DS9 due to her demands on getting an equal pay raise to her male co-stars for the final season being met.
I thought Terry left because she want to be on a recurring basis for thr final season
Once I saw more of the Klingons in TNG and DS9, it couldn't be helped but notice how contradictory they really were.
There are the Klingon legends, ideals, the stuff that Worf took to heart because he never lived in the Klingon Empire when he was young. When you see more and more of actual Klingons that lived in the Empire, there is a very stark contrast to what is the ideal compared to how they actually lived.
And this is actually true with a lot of Earth's own history. There are societies where there is a certain set of ideals that represent them, but in reality it's not quite that.
Today the Samurai are seen as honorable warriors, faithful to their feudal lords. In reality, during they were complete opposites. Loyalty was often discarded, betrayal was rampant. Family would kill each other over leadership of the clan.
We think of medieval era Crusaders, knights in holy orders fighting for God to reclaim the Holy Land. In reality a bunch of those guys just took up the cross to go to war, kill, loot, and grab some land. They were neither holy and their actions would raise the eyebrows of Jesus.
So, would the wisdom be, do not let myths override one's perspective of reality ? In addition, nothing is ever black and white? I wonder what you think.
But for my opinion. I think there is an abundance of grey zones, no matter how ideal the society. That is not a negative, it is to be taken into consideration and instruct us on how to be as humane as possible and to improve that society.
Except only LARPERS really adore the crusaders.
Not just a lot of our history. The vast majority of it. Hypocrisy seems to be the default.
Very true. Its just annoying the show was continually hesitant to acknowledge this. I wish they had actually delved into the hypocrisy, the contradiction of a warrior society being so scientifically advanced, and how their code and rules never works. I think DS9 really did this well, especially with Kor developing dementia and getting a bunch of ppl killed, or Martok’s struggles with command. It seemed to acknowledge how stupid the Klingon rules were and didn’t praise or romanticise all this traditional dogma like some of the Worf TNG episodes did. Those TNG Klingon episodes were always so annoying becuz the writers didn’t want to approach the problems of the Klingon’s as a society
@@Joleyn-Joy Not true, this picture of the noble knight/crusaders is a very common theme in fiction and computer games. There are countless examples really.
Here Gowron was just sentenced to death :-D
Once he started squandering the Empire's resources and lives for political gain, Gowron sentenced himself to death.
To be far, Gowron was never really portrayed as a stable longterm leader, even going back to the TNG days.
He was quite literally the lesser of two evils as the other one was Duras & his radioactive poison antics, reminds me of Russians.
Ah, but in his society when they sentence you to death they put a "sword" in your hand and give you a fighting chance. Sometimes, at least.
Well to be fair, it was when Sisko talked to him that his death was inevitable. Even back then when I first saw it, I knew Worf would kill him, I just didn't see him passing the buck Lol.
I was never a huge fan of DS9, but I liked the characters of Jadzia and Ezri. She makes an excellent point, largely in line with Edmund Burke's famous quote: "All that in necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."
Which series did you like more?
This is true Picard had a speech once when men of good conscience.... The rest eludes me too much Romulan ale.
And with that.. Gowron became a dead Chancellor walking...
briscoej1 Almost...almost.
That was massively skillful in bringing out Worf's leadership spirit. Breaking him out of his misguided authority worship and reminding him of the essence beneath the mythology.
This includes the buildup with letting him ponder the awful prospect of the empire dying. Then contrasting it.
Star Trek can easily become overinspiring, a cynical word that but describes the grim reality. Because you need many friends of equally good character to make a dent in the corrupt system.
What I really like about this scene is that it's the writers, mainly Ron Moore, looking back at all the Klingon episodes and having Ezri basically tell the audience the running theme of all those story arcs.
I think it was why Worf could never stay in the Empire. He has a romanticized view from being an outsider and when he finally gets an opportunity to be among his people, he finds them lacking.
Ron Moore. Hated his revamped Battlestar Galactica, but loved his Star Trek episodes, especially the Klingon episodes.
@@davidturner3704 that sums it up quite thoroughly.
as Dax, she's probably seen empires rise and fall, so it's slightly ironic that while Ezri herself is barely out of academy, she is speaking with the wisdom of 9 hosts and the sweetness of the girl that she is.
@@davidturner3704 This is probably part of why Michael Dorn was reportedly unhappy with Star Trek Online's depiction of Worf (the only post-Nemesis Trek project that he's been involved with). Besides his aspirations of Worf becoming a Starfleet captain, he knows Worf wouldn't join the Empire.
Counselor Ezri with dat real talk swag.
All humor aside she essentially summed up everything Klingon since Chang had Gorkon killed. We heard about Gowron rewriting the history books of his ascension to the chancellorship. Kahless I would probably be spinning in his grave. Or at least on Boreth.
Kahless would be proud, and did the same thing himself. Who ever is in power gets to write history. "The Savage Curtain" episode of the original series, showed Kahless as his tyrannical self.
The version of Kahless in "The Savage Curtain" was produced by the Excalibans from images and opinions inside Kirk's head about what Kahless was like and wouldn't be an actual representation of what Kahless was like.
I see your point on the Excalibans influence. Though Kirk viewed Kahless as such, it does not negate how cruel Kahless was viewed by non-Klingon species. It instead serves as an example on how Klingons are observed to be tyrannical by other Alpha Quadrant members.
The opinions and views of other Alpha Quadrant species is entirely irrelevant to the Klingon worldview and shouldn't influence how Klingons choose to govern themselves.
(Except when they choose someone like Picard as their arbiter.)
Kem'pec had his moments, but he still allowed Duras's father to get away with the Khitomer massacre simply because the house had too much influence in the high council to oppose.
0:54 - nice of the writers to include this - this is basically a nod to the fans complaining that Worf had to cover up for the High Council... ... ... TWICE!!!!!!
Yet another demonstration of why DS9 was the best of Star Trek.
It's always been my favorite too, but for entirely different reasons.
Took me over 25 years, but thanks to Netflix, I'm thoroughly enjoying this gem. And yeah, it's great for entirely different reasons 👌
it was my favorite when it was running, and nothing has changed since.
@Projekt Kobra OR it’s just their favorite series
Love DS9 but TNG takes the cake, IMO
Didn't even needed to raise her voice she just told it like it is and Worf knew she's right especially his ordeal in Sins of the father
@Howyaduing maybe it has something to do with Ezri being a Counselor. She has a way of telling somebody something they don't want to hear, knowing that its her professional opinion. It also doesn't hurt that the Dax symbiont has Jadzhia's memories, so Ezri can tap into that as well.
@@jeffburnham6611 Indeed, there's hints here of Ezri's perception of the Klingon Empire from before she was joined, which position was further solidified by the memories of Curzon and Jadzia that she now has. She has a unique perspective of a century worth of being close to Klingons, but still being an outsider looking in.
Between Ezri's connection to the Dax symbiont, and her connection to Jadzia's memories of her marriage to Worf ... Ezri probably knew more about the Klingon Empire than most Klingons NOT at that table for 2.
This was a great scene not just because of how it put it out there how the Empire really is but also because it really drove home that Ezri isn't Jadzia. Jadzia would never have said that, I am not sure if she would have agreed with it. There is also the fallout from this scene. It's all but certain that this argument from Ezri led to Worf challenging and killing Gowron and making Martok King Klingon.
With a single one minute speech, Ezri Dax changed the course of the Klingon Empire.
Jadzia for sure wouldn't have said it this way. As Ezri said .... Jadzia and Curzon weren't willing to be skeptical about the Empire's flaws. but, knowing what Benjamin had told Worf .... AND knowing what was at stake .... Jadzia would have also told Worf to kill him in ritualistic combat, just with a different message.
And Worf chose the chancellor, second time in a row xd Worf and Dax are the real power in the empire
A sage advised a hero, who then overthrew a mad king for a wise one.
While I loved Terry Ferrel in the role, getting another season with Nicole De Boer would have been awesome.
"The greater good is often use to justify the greatest of evil." - Me, just now.
For all that Q would tease Worf, he's easily one of the most reasonable and intelligent characters in the franchise, let alone the Klingon empire.
Early Worf was too busy snarling and wanting to attack people. So micro brain is apt. He did grow over time.
I never liked TNG Worf all that much. DS9 Worf on the other hand. . .
His character grew way more in DS9 than it did on TNG. he was more of a fringe main character on TNG.
Ezri Dax was one of the best additions to DS9. The juxtaposition that she brought to Jadzia was an incredible flavour to the whole mix, and it was criminal that the character was robbed of more time by having the show cancelled.
Why was the show canceled?
@@eren34558 It wasn't cancelled. It seems seven seasons was pretty much the requisite run for Paramount series. I don't think it could have gone on more than another season anyway, which would have made for another season (mid-7th to mid-8th) pretty much what they crammed into the full seventh, plus a bit more exposition on the characters and internal rebellion on Cardassia. Not so much painted into the corner as having just a touch more paint in the can than necessary for the room so it's best not to start another.
That and budget resources were going into Voyager.
@eren8455 at argue it ended where it should have, sure Ezri in particular could have been helped a lot by another season, she was brought in to replace Jadzia after her actress didn't sign on for the 7th season. (Apparently due to bts sexism so there's that) but the show as a whole would have suffered from being stretched and stretched to keep going. Bear in mind a season in the 90's wouldn't have meant 4-14 episodes it would mean 20-26. Most of the actors had already poured 7 years into the show, heck Nana Visitor and Alexander Siddig, got married, had a kid and got divorced. I think the actors and writers and producers knew where they wanted it to end, and brought it in strong. None of that Lost bs of just beating a dead horse till its a pulp. And for only having one season I think Ezri was still a really strong character. Just with less total material than the others
Her dissertation about the Klingon empire is spot-on. She makes her points with evidence to back them and looks damn good doing it.
She looks good, alright.
Considering that Ezri has the memories and opinions of Curzon who negotiated the peace treaty with the Klingons decades before and Jadzia who was very accepting of Klingon culture, but who also saw how easily Gowron was lead to abandoning Curzon's treaty by changeling Martok, I think she (Ezri) has a unique perspective on the deterioration of the Klingon Empire. The deterioration is also depicted in Gowron's change from TNG to DS9. He visibly detested the Council letting Worf accept the blame for Duras's treason and though he couldn't restore Worf's honor then, he did so once Duras's influence had been eliminated. He also stopped D'Ghor from killing Quark in an early DS9 episode. Eventually he succumbed to political influence lead by changeling Martok, that ultimately resulted in him turning on Worf again when he did not agree with attacking Cardassia.
As much as I was not pleased with the latest Dax host, this was a moment of perfection. A Hard Truth about a situation where she had the courage to say to someone who needs to not only hear it, but act on it.
I would have liked to have one more season with Nicole De Boer as Ezri, there was so much they could have done with her, but they ran out of time. But no disrespect to Terry Farrel...
@@pauls3604 Definitely. Both versions of the character were good in their own ways, but we really only did scratch the surface on Ezri, which is a shame.
I really liked Ezri
They did a remarkable job developing her character in essentially half a season without oversaturating her.
Sometimes it takes someone who doesn't see things the way you do to help you acknowledge that a much needed change needs to happen. Kurzon was great friends with 3 old Klingon warriors. Jadzia knew Kurzon and once she had his memories through the symbiote, she considered his friends her friends. Jadzia, like Kurzon, was blinded to the troubles of the Klingon Empire much like Worf was. Ezri was a breath of fresh air in her views on the empire. She was respectful, yet didn't pull punches. Given that Worf being raised by Sergei and Helena instead of by other Klingons, he is able to see the truth behind Ezri's words. He helped put Gowron into power as the chancellor by killing Duras in an act of revenge for his dead mate. Gowron barely kept power during the Klingon Civil War, again thanks to Worf. How does Gowron thank Worf? When it's convenient, the weasel throws the House of Mogh under the bus along with a number of other houses. Worf was a more honorable Klingon, even when that honor was under fire, than the entire Klingon High Council. Gowron became a problem for the Klingons as a whole and needed to be removed.
Ezri: what has the Klingon empire ever done for us?
Worf: The roads…
The aqueduct.
Well yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean the roads go without saying, don't they?
Ezri is the latest in a long line of Daxes. The wisdom is really coming out here. Props to Nicole de Boer!!!
😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
I remember how her speech resonated with me at the time. If you think about it the empire also was very stagnant for many decades which is why her words ring so true
I loved how DS9 had no sacred cows. They questioned everything in Star Trek and made it richer and more entertaining as a result.
This is the writers of the show realizing they wrote the Klingons into a corner: Though the Klingon-centered episodes of DS9 were great, they also flanderized them as honor-obsessed feudal warriors/space Vikings with not much else. Compare them to the Cardassians, who were given quite a complex culture, history and political landscape. The Cardassians resolved their problems with a revolution that, at first, originated out of the Dominion's indifference to their wounded pride and constituted yet another attempt to restore the Cardassian Empire to its former glory, but gradually developed into a quest to renew Cardassian society and reconcile the sins and mistakes of the past. The Klingons resolved theirs when Gowron's vanity nearly crippled their fleet and Worf killed him in a duel, giving Martok the chancellorship. Don't get me wrong, I love the Klingons in DS9, but the more they developed one aspect of their characterization, the more their entire world building suffered. That's basically what Ezri's saying.
That’s a really interesting observation. But I do disagree that the writers painted themselves in a corner. I think (by happenstance or design) they created the perfect analogy of an arrested culture. It’s fair to say that at one point they were a far more nuanced society (ENT: Judgement) but they allowed their warrior ethos and honour code to become all-pervasive. Ultimately, that led to a powerful and militaristic society, but one that became far too rigid and unwieldy to adapt to social evolution, allowing for the slow creep of moral stagnation. (I think Sparta or imperial Japan would be an apt real-world comparison) By unyieldingly upholding those precepts, warriors like Worf were complicit in the rise of political opportunists like Gowron, who deftly took advantage of the cumbersome machine of state to satisfy their own ambitions. Worf has been grappling with this for years (starting, perhaps, at his own acceptance of discommendation ‘for the good of the empire’) and I think Ezri finally woke him to that reality in this scene.
That’s a pretty long-winded way of saying that although it may appear that the Klingons were depicted as one-dimensional archetypes by DS9, I think it’s a pretty interesting case study into societies that refuse to adapt to change.
Ezri just dropped the mic.
(1) I loved Ezri from the start, cuz I knew it wasn't Nicole's fault that Terry left after S6.
(2) either Dax would have told Worf to do what he did ... the messages would have been drastically different. like Ezri said, she was more skeptical about the Empire than Jadzia ... so she took that path. along with reminding Worf of his own history with Gowron, Jadzia would have told him exactly what Benjamin did, regarding the thin line holding the Dominion off the Federation as it was.
Sigh. Yet another piece of Star Trek that only became more relevant and analogous to real life issues as time passed. I should be inspired by the good writing and all, but I'm too busy being depressed because it's still such an apt summary of the world we actually live in, even almost two decades after this episode aired.
Do not lose hope. Depression is okay, but you found us. We're not alone. We're all working, and we're all going to find a way towards one another to overcome this. Our culture lets us know in advance how it evolves, through its myths, its stories, its art, its nightmares. Take the pieces and the parts you find resonate with you, and bring them together and share them with others, and start to make your own myths, stories, art, and nightmares to share, because you will soon find that there is a lot of hope just under the surface. Only, we do not all see how we share these hopes beneath the surface, but we are all starting to learn this and act on it, the same way that the people who came before us learned and acted.
We have a pervasive and daunting challenge before us. Our enemy is the monster inside us, the monster we all know we are. No other monster taunts us and destroys us than our own reluctance to admit we are monsters. But if you can admit that, if you can make it a point to face your own fear-making, your own terror-sending, your own complicity in what you hold is evil, your own corruption inside, and own that for *you first*, then we will be ready to tear down the flimsy walls and screens and curtains keeping us afraid of the people who want us to fear them more than our own selves. You have to do this. I have to do this. Those people over there have to do this. We have to live and act so that the people who follow us also learn they have to do this. We are not alone in having to do this, which means we can also start working together, with one another, to live truly free of shame, to walk truly free of fear.
We are not going to like admitting that, maybe, each one of us "deserves to die." We are not going to like living after owning our personal, individual evils. But we are not going to be alone when we open up to one another and forgive the past. We have to stop being willing to tolerate our own bullshit, or we're never going to see how we are all, each of us, sharing the same inner struggle.
@@Polusplagchnos We met the enemy, and he is us!
@@Polusplagchnos Reminds me of a line from the Return of the King
It’s all wrong
By rights we shouldn’t even be here.
But we are.
It’s like in the great stories Mr. Frodo.
The ones that really mattered.
Full of darkness and danger they were,
and sometimes you didn’t want to know the end.
Because how could the end be happy.
How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad happened.
But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow.
Even darkness must pass.
A new day will come.
And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.
Those were the stories that stayed with you.
That meant something.
Even if you were too small to understand why.
But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand.
I know now.
Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn’t.
Because they were holding on to something.
Frodo: What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.
@@VadulTharys two towers.
@@Polusplagchnos Also consider the amusing thematic parallel of Gowron being a changeling and some people in our world believing that their leaders are shapeshifting aliens, as a means to go into denial of and reject responsibility for our human inner monstrosity.
"You have been willing to accept a government you know is corrupt" Art imitating life much?
That's the point of star trek.
Liberals. *cough* *cough*
Both sides, really. As a wise man once said, the left wing and the right wing are both part of the same bird.
That's why I think both the Democratic and the Republican Party should die because honestly people are like sports fans when it comes to the parties they stick with them no matter who their candidate is out of some sense of pride it creates too much of a US versus them mentality and to be honest the whole system needs a facelift sorry I'm bringing up American politics but I don't think I'm wrong though I probably should look at other countries that works similarly whether they have multiple political parties or just one governing body system like they just choose a candidate there's no separation I think Norway does that
@@FireLordJohn3191 Trump*
"Who was the last leader of the high council you respected?"
"Azetbur, daughter of Gorkon. She pursued peace with the federation despite those within it and within the empire conspired to murder her father."
Unfortunately in an expanded Universe novel Azetbur was assassinated by a Klingon Separatist and it was decreed by the new regime that Klingon Women were forbidden to ever be elected as Chancellor.
@@eamonndeane587 more than that, women couldn't serve on the High Council in any capacity.
@@eamonndeane587 you forgot that the position of Chancellor is not elected.
@BrotherDerrick3X I am a little rusty when It comes to my knowledge about Klingon Politics .
@@eamonndeane587 Or even serve on the High Council at all.
Ezri was the Dax we didn't know we wanted, and the Dax we desperately needed
my sentiment to the Klingon Empire is very similar to Ezri's, actually, so I totally can relate to her views here.
She called him out on his own culpability. By standing silent, this honorable Klingon has supported a dishonorable regime. Well done.
I loved her character. Finally a psychologist in Starfleet
Much more so than Deanna. All I heard out of Deanna was, "How do you feel? Talk about your feelings. What/how do you feel about them?"
She's not wrong. Also this was the best writing Ezri got all season.
This and her brief backstory with her family. It was nice for the writers to tie her into background, just so we could see a small part of what made her want to join Starfleet.
This conversation reminds me of the speech Kirk gave to Mirror Spock in "Mirror Mirror", which convinced him to consider rebelling against the Terran Empire. Like Ezri did with Worf, Kirk appealed to the one trait of Mirror Spock's that he knew he could trust on - his logic - and wove a tapestry of truth about the Empire and its inevitable fall around that, to the point where - like Worf with this conversation - Spock was unable to argue against it. I wonder if the writers had that speech in mind when they wrote this one?
Boy, did the DS9 writing staff know how to make lemons out of lemonade.
Producers: "We botched Terry Farrell's contract negotiations and she isn't coming back for season 7. Figure it out."
Writers: "As soon as we're done knocking this situation out of the park, we are going to smack you." 🤓
If you were trying to compliment the writers you got the expression backwards... I thought you were passive aggressively insulting them for a moment lol, make lemons out of lemonade.
So well written! The parallels to our institutions both governmental, faith-based, etc. are sobering.
One of the best scenes in the series.
you gotta hand it to ezri.she tells it like it is!
Just one of the best speeches about the reality of the Klingon Empire
Ezri here dropping one of the biggest truthbombs of the franchise
This entire scene could easily be about America... and that should fill every American's heart with terror and hope.
"You're right Ezri, I should kill Gowron in ritual combat."
"What?"
"What?"
Deep down she had to have known, maybe even consciously realized, what her speech to Worf would lead him to do if he accepted her view. I mean, the previous two Dax hosts were well involved with Klingon society, with one being an Ambassador to Q'onos, the other closer to Worf than anyone else had ever been, and their memories would certainly lead Ezri to know he'd react how he did if he agreed with her.
Hell, had Jadzia still been around, she'd probably have challenged Gowron herself if Worf didn't.
I regret the series ended so soon after the character of Ezri Dax was added.
me too .... but the series was always scripted to go 7 seasons.
ezri was so understated, i wish she had a more prominate role
Ezri...you are a wonderful idea that wasn't handled very well. I am so sorry for you...
+spectre111 Sadly, I agree, this truly one of her most shining moments in her tenure.
When you know you are going into a limited role and going to be basically overshadowed by the previous actor.. its hard to make it work.
I thought she was handled wonderfully. Loved Ezri, wish she'd come in it sooner.
@@codyw1 she was much better then the party girl pretending to be a scientist
She's also describing the old republic of star wars to a "T".
jimbojackson2 sadly true, but I'm not sure the Empire was a better alternative. I'd ask the citizens of Alderaan for their opinion but, well they have been strangely quiet lately.
William Costigan Probably just some imperial blockade blocking transmissions across the holonet from Alderaan I doubt anything bad has happened. In fact if you would like to visit I have a corellian freighter ready for transport with 10,000 credit fee for a hyperspace journey to Alderaan.
Therio Cassius 10,000?! I could almost buy my own ship with that!
A thousand years of peace was something to be ashamed of? And where was there any evidence of corruption, outside Palatine and some arms merchants?
Sorry, but I thought this was a Star Trek thread, you know where people don't have superpowers or other fantasy like things, and we talk about real political issues (or rather, their science fiction mirrors) No offense, but don't bring up that Disnefied, oh we have to do something to compete with Star Trek's well established political science fiction, here.
A reflection of our own society.
What hope is there for the Empire, indeed.
#FreeAssange
Worf/Dax 2016
Quentin Lennox Female Changeling/Weyoun 2024
It was at that moment that Worf decided Gowron had to die.
I respect Ezri more than Jadzia here. Jadzia was a hedonist with a foreign culture fetish. Ezri sees flaws and acknowledges them.
Ezri was a greatly underappreciated character in her time. Only in retrospect do we now appreciate her.
I've never understood why people didn't like Ezri.
The Klingons have always always been a hilarious melange of internal contradictions and hypocrisies. I'm still amused by the idea that a society that would rather headbutt each other and eat raw meat all day, even achieved space exploration in the first place. They blather about honour, while routinely engaging in unfair fights. Even Martok thinks the wholesale slaughter of Cardassia Prime's civilians shouldn't stop a celebratory drink for their "victory".
The Klingons would have been more fundamentally interesting, if they were essentially a society living in the stagnant, decaying remains of a long-lost golden age. A fallen civilization, making war with spaceships they no longer know how to build new ones of, built with technologies they no longer understand, in an era of their civilization where they were more focused on knowledge, science, and technology. Perhaps even an era the Empire itself has forgotten due to time, or memory holed as they now find it weak and pathetic.
Imagine if it turned out Kahless was actually an ancient Klingon dictator, who essentially purged the Klingon Enlightenment, and refocused the Klingons into becoming nothing but a warrior race - but it's so long ago the Klingons themselves don't remember it, and simply revere Kahless and his teachings as they remember no other way.
Your second paragraph is essentially describing the Imperium of Man from W40K.
Scottoest They on,y made it to space because they reverse engineered Hurq ships. They weren’t ready
The klingons actually stole their warp technology. They didnt develop it themselves.
So basically the opposite of Vulcans
@@MikeCGannon This was precisely what I thought as well when reading that.
Whether it was her intention or not, and I'm inclined to believe she didn't intend for Worf to kill Gowron, she signed Gowron's death warrant with those last lines.
I'm sure Ezri had enough Jadzia and Curzon knowledge inside her to know PRECISELY what her words meant, regarding Gowron.
and she didn't care, because she KNEW what was at stake.
One of the best secens in DS9. It seems to me that Ezri might also be talking about America.
I would have added somewhere there
"Word, you are duty and honor made manifest. I know, and deep down you too know, that the Empire does not deserve you."
She has a good point. Ever since we saw the high council in TNG the corruption was at the forefront.
Worf's reaction was perfect. It wasn't just a jab delivered by Dax. She was right and he knew it, and he knew what her being right meant.
He knew all along what he HAD to do .... what Ezri told him confirmed it.
Man this could describe a bunch of western democracies right now
She's spot on. Jadzia wouldn't have gone there.
How insane that dozens of episodes covering Klingon politics, spanning multiple tv shows and more than ten years - all broken down in one scene that makes so much sense and goes so hard. What incredible writing
This scene, Warf saying, "Death to the opposition!" for chatter and Odo's, " Yooouu're OUGHT'A here!" are my favorite bits from this season.
Ezri putting the Empire on blast :) in the most polite, thoughtful and soft spoken manner possible 😂🤣
She's great :)💘
Right at the end........Worf's expression. It was right there that he decided he was gonna stop Gowron by any means.
That final line is what cinched it.
Simultaneously it rewards and validates Warf’s honor, while expressing that in truth the only honorable action would be to stand up against Galron’s corruption. And she does it all genuinely. It’s not a manipulation. It’s just the truth.
I know this bit was meant to show Ezri as her own person, but I see a little bit of Jadzia's "democracy wasn't so bad for the Klingons" here....
Hear, hear, Ezri!
I've always wondered why it took ezri to be the one dax to truly point out the core flaw of the Klingon empire, thankfully martok made it an honorable empire when he became it's new leader
Because Jadzia and Curzon liked the Klingon Empire too much to offer fair criticism.
Marzipan and Curzon were Klingaboos.
Both of the Klingon main characters - Worf, and Belanna Torrez, were the best; truthful, honorable, loyal to their shipmates and brave. Both were treated by other Klingons as cowards without honor.
Meanwhile the Klingons they're dealing with are deceitful, weaseling, cowardly bullies.
I never understood the ethos of warrior cultures who obsess about honor in combat, yet they subsist on thievery, and thuggery and slavery, persecuting the poorest and weakest.
Strong fucking words. I can't imagine the brass tacks to say that to his face either, but she has em.
Wow! Absolutely spot-on. Analogous metaphorical meme absolutely look around
It really seems like DS9 creative team knew on some level that they were among the last of their era of Star Trek and were trying to tie off larger, cross-series arcs, like the Worf-Klingon stuff that began in TNG. It is absolutely stunning to think how much better this show is than anything that has come after.
idk who to love more. Ezri or when Quark was a host during Jadzia's Zhian'tara
One of the best actor replacement ever. Both were great, mind you.
The sad thing is, Gowron wasn't corrupt or evil, he was someone who shouldn't have been leading an interstellar empire. He could be reasonable, and was honorable, but he was also hot-tempered, arrogant, and a poor strategist. Gowron would not have killed the Klingon Empire intentionally, but it would've died under his watch.
I disagree with that assessment, even if it is a year old. Gowron was a politician of his era, obsessed with consolidating power whether be through the interrogation of a tribunal or with the disrupter of a ship. He did possess a sense of honor, but he seemed capable of contorting his belief of honor to suit his own interests. He refused to entertain the idea of Kahless’ return, even before it was exposed as a hoax. He refused to respect Worf’s decision not join the invasion of Cardassia, because to do so would have compromised his own interests. I mean, he literally sanctioned the invasion of Cardassia and authorized ambush tactics (lying in wait is very much dishonorable) and continued to push for aggressive expansion up *until* he risked a two-front war, jeopardizing his own interests. Here, Gowron uses honor as a veil to again advance his interests, claiming a warrior as loyal and fierce as Martok should obey and win, regardless of the circumstances. We know this to be a cop-out for his true purpose; eliminate any threat to his dominance. So in conclusion, was Gowron capable of being honorable? At times. Was he an honorable man? For the most part, no.
I didn't really care for Ezri Dax in the show, up until this very moment. And it completely changed my opinion of the character. Like jingoism with America, the Klingons viewed themselves as honorable and proud warriors, when in reality, in both cases, one's "patriotism/honor" is an excuse for any number of dishonorable and unpatriotic acts carried out in the name of the "greater good".
Powerful people in the depths of corruption use the word "honor" to convince Klingons they are doing good deeds as they carry out objectively dishonorable ones, and ignore the obvious dishonor of their higher ups. (Even in Lower Decks we saw this in recent episodes, and that was a great bit of continuity at play).
Same with America. Ever since 9/11, tell someone they're a "patriot" and all sorts of evil deeds become OK because it's "necessary". Both show corruption at the highest levels being excused away as something it, by definition, can never be, because accepting the harsh truth that your empire/country is on the downward slide to self-destruction is more painful than continuing down that path, to the bitter end.
Finally! Someone told the truth!
Best Show Ever
to Klingons harsh honesty is honorable
Ezri spittin straight facts
If you looked at modern times and put our government in place of the Klingon, it hits a little harder.
First time i actually herd a moral arguement im star trek rooted in reason rather than emotion. Is it better the empire devolve into civil war then tolerate corruption. This was the dilemma in the Empire for some time. General Martok presented an opportunity they never had before. A competent successor who did not want the power. If Worf siezed power he would have become part of the problem using violenece for personal gain. But by handing it off to martok, he secured the throne in honorable. And set an example that a true warrior does whats best for the Empire by self sacrfice not self indulgence.
Brexit led me here.
She'e right on the money.
This is so relevant today!
She is right
This is so current
Good speakers can motivate good speakers. Worf was motivated to say the things that needed saying in order to bring the problem to the attention of Gowron. Gowron, in turn, took the necessary steps that cleared the way for the problem to be solved, even at the cost of sacrificing Gowron’s life.
Where have we heard this story before?
0:48 She's got a very good point. Chancellor K'mpec screwed Worf over by trying to cover up Duras's involvement with the Romulans out of fear of a civil war (which ended up happening anyway) and Gowron was a sniveling politician who threw Worf to the dogs the first chance he got.
gowron was a savvy politician for the empire he was in charge of, the issue was that the empire itself could only be led at that point by someone like gowron, anyone else would have fallen to the various sideswipes from the corrupted houses.
Problem is that gowron grew to only care about his position and not the overall health of the empire so his decisions became erratic and detrimental
and so, Worf took off his combadge and went for a stroll.
Worse is that K'mpec was a friend of Worf's father.