The Last Jedi VS Shrek - How to Subvert Expectations
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- The Last Jedi sure subverted my expectations. So did Shrek. Wow.
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Background music is all from The Last Jedi and Shrek OST.
shrek is that perfect example of subversion of expectations by actually still playing straight.
It's still a story about a hero saving a princess And living Happily ever after
Good point.
deadpool does this too
I think that the subversion for Rey's parents fundamentally doesn't work because we never get Rey's expectations on who they are. All we get is that she thinks they're alive and coming back for her, but she never talks about what she thinks her parents are doing, or why they left her behind.
What the writers could have don't is make it so that Rey thinks her parents are these big, important people going around doing amazing things. That they left her behind because a child would get in the way of their important work. Which would be Rey's motivation for why she's pushing herself to learn new skills, to be useful to her parents when they finally came back. Which would have the added benefit of showing that Rey has internalized her life growing up as a slave, that she views relationships as having value to offer to the other party. Then when she learns that she's force sensitive she would be even more excited. She would think that she has more to offer, and she would have a new angle to her fantasies of her parents where they are jedi knights.
This would make the revelation that her parents were nobodies be a punch to the gut. Everything that Rey based her life around, all her motivation, her goals for the future, would all be gone. This would be the lowest moment in her character arc, where she now has to learn how to derive value from herself, and not from what she can offer to other people.
If you want a Star Wars story that subverts expectations and deconstructs the lore in a meaningful and clever way, look no further than KOTOR 2.
Never played the game but that does sound interesting.
@@itsblitz4437 KOTOR 2 - the best star wars game of all time. Is couple times better even from Mass Effect
and if you want mark hamill to be a cranky old mentor to a almost wiped out mystical warrior group, you can check out Kulipari: An Army of Frogs
Here's the comparision video we all needed. No joke Shrek is actually a perfect example of how to subvert expectations the right way.
So is TLJ
@@yemmohater2796 Subverting expectations by giving people nothing or something that is completely disconnected from the previous film isn't a good way to go about it. If it was people would be calling Rise of Skywalker a subversive masterpiece because it subverted Rians subversions.
I’m not sure I agree on the strength of the comparison or entirely agree with lowart’s conclusion of what the biggest difference is (and why TLJ went wrong.)
Part of this the massive difference in what the two are subverting. Where shrek is a subversion of grander story tropes and conventions of ideas people are familiar with through social osmosis in the same way that Madoka is a subversion of a larger genre and something that goes beyond itself. By contrast TLJ is subverting the ideas it is looking like it’s building towards and its subversion is entirely contained in itself, I think a good comparison to this would be the book 2 finale of avatar the last airbender.
Spoilers for avatar if you somehow haven’t seen it:
Book two pulls the viewer towards the belief that Zuko is going to become good and join the main cast, something that his arc has been building towards, however, when presented with the opportunity he ultimately falls back to being an antagonist. Aang goes and masters the avatar state and up until now the avatar state has proved to be nearly unstoppable, and the show builds the expectations of the viewer towards this being a turning point towards a victory with the presentation and way the music is used, but in the final fight when entering the avatar state he is killed (something that is basically a worst case scenario.)
The difference between ATLA and TLJ in these subversions is that ATLA uses this ideas to do interesting things and is able to sell you on these developments in the prexisting justification.
How do you subvert expectations "the right way"?
The problem wit hthe way Last Jedi subverted expectations robbed the audience of catharsis. There's a difference between surprising the audience because you had a better idea than they did, and surprising the audience because "hee hee you thought it was gonna be this, but it's not!"
I find that viewers and fans fixate WAY more on the idea of Last Jedi as “subverting expectations” than the film itself does.
The way people talk about it, you’d think “Must Subvert Expectations” was that movie’s mission statement instead of something it just used as a device to make its broader points the way *most* stories do.
One problem with the last jedi is the first film handed off a bunch of foreshadowing to a different director who had a different vision. So JJ set up expectations with his mystery box as he does and Ryan Johnson had a different direction. The terrible choice to use multiple creative voices that really seemed to not be in sync is far worse than any choices in the movie.
I actually really liked Rey being a nobody. Telling a bigger story beyond two family fucking up the galaxy for three generations running was cool. Building up the idea you don't have to be special to be special was also cool. And like... Was the whole palapatine thing exciting to literally anyone? Were our expectations not being subverted satisfying?
I think the internet speculation culture gets kinda toxic. It can be fun to do a video seeing where things might go but they seem to too deeply color people's expectations.
Yep. The Last Jedi is a sequel to seven movies that exist only in Rian Johnson's ego addled brain.
@@hariman7727it’s all the more frustrating because we know the guy can make great movies (case in point, Knives Out, in which he even executed a good subversion of expectation by turning a whodunnit into… well… whatever you call it when you follow someone who committed a crime and is trying to cover it up), but I guess that only works when he’s working with original content. I think TLJ was Johnson quickly getting sick of the rules and preexisting layouts he was told to follow, and thus decided to flip the table and remake Star Wars in his own image. His “Your Snoke theories suck” already prove that he delights in not just confrontation, but outright antagonization, both with his colleagues and the fans, and so he gave those elements precedence over plot points and character actions that would actually make sense in the context of the existing greater narrative of SW. Honestly, hiring a diva like him to work on a collaborative project was probably the stupidest thing Disney could’ve done.
@@jordinagel1184 knives out was a popcorn movie that's mediocre at best.
Shrek is a masterpiece for eternity
I didn't mind the reveal of Rey's parentage being nobodies, I actually kinda liked it. The stories of big, interconnected, super powered families were already told with the the last two trilogies. It's the same star wars struggle against fate, but in a different light - the chosen one choosing themself. Maybe it's a little cliche, but star wars is kinda built on cliche. It felt like a good enough resolution to me anyway; it's a big galaxy after all. Plus, the parallels of the main arc would feel more distinct - evil rising from good with Anakin, good rising from evil with Luke, and good rising from nothing without that spectre of almost divine fate. It complicates at twists that overarching star wars story (though it's another debate if that was actually needed).
That said, the writing of the new trilogy felt like it was fighting with itself and was so bad because of it, lacking literally any narrative coherence. Conflict is for the characters, not the writing. Rey's heritage reveal was the least bad thing about the second movie for me. They just disrespectfully threw Finn, the big villains, and Luke (though, like you said, Luke isn't so bad strictly as a foil to Rey when contained to this movie).
As a trilogy, these movies are bad. As a movie, the Last Jedi is bad. But as a subversion of expectations through Rey's lineage, I didn't think it was so bad.
I feel like it may have been better to have Luke lean way harder into depending on his friends and family since they've helped each other out so much already, and the force has caused so much trouble(his rant about the Jedi allowing the sith to gain power). He'd be a mentor, but instead of pushing for growing stronger in the force, he may have pushed to make allies and maybe even reach out to others under the Empire to join the Rebellion.
God killing off Phasma was such a mistake.
I’ll admit it, that ‘outro’ got a snort out of me
a very good comparison actually
Loving these daily vids!
Here is a show that also shouldn't have suverted exportation
Naruto and Sakuke
Like come on enemies to lovers trope and they even had the big kiss. How are they not end game?
Shippuuden subverted the expectation that it would continue the original series.
Your intro makes me realize Finn and Rey go through the same character arc twice in Episode 7 & 8, but the one where they’re together is better.
The last Jedi subverted expectation perfectly. By not giving stupid fans what they wanted. Also if Rian Johnson wouldn’t have coined the phrase “ subverted, expectation” then no one would be using it today like it’s the only words they know.
The thing about tropes and cliches is that many of them became what they are because they're tried and true tested formulas. Being different can be great but it's inherently riskier and doesn't guarantee as easily a successful execution. And I also don't believe in rewarding stuff just for "being different" if ultimately it comes off as boring, anti-climactic, or pretentiously contrarian.
That all being said though, TLJ absolutely needed to subvert some Star Wars cliches. I do think it was a mistake to backpedal on Rey's lineage in episode 9, as tying her bloodline to Palpatine added nothing meaningful to the narrative and just cheapened the lore in an obvious attempt to pander to the angry mob. I also think it would have been incredibly boring and predictable if Luke turned out to be exactly the same as he was after RotJ but just older and wiser. We already had an Obi-Wan mentor, we already had a Yoda training session; we didn't need to repeat these things, and it's not just for the sake of Rey's story, but Luke's as well that I'd like to see him still facing his own inner struggles and getting character development; not merely serving as a plot device for Rey to grow in power and otherwise offer nothing more than fanservice for returning audiences.
My only fault I have with TLJ in this respect is that it didn't feel like it fully followed through with Luke's arc and give audiences a sense that he was completely redeemed. It would have been beneficial if he at least survived through to episode 9 to give him a more complete arc, especially because his death just felt like it came out of nowhere and didn't have the impact that it should have had.
I think the bigger issue than the inherent risk of these plot points was its execution surrounding them, justification for them, inability to sell them and refusal to do anything with them. Everything just falls apart in the execution.
Like for example the Luke thing, (which has been brought up by Crispin Freeman,) the problem isn’t the subversion that look has become disillusioned, it’s that it can’t make me believe its justification with how flimsy and poorly executed it is. It fails to sell the idea and earn the subversion and the way it presents this justification is extremely weak and lazy with the whole reused shot misunderstanding which feels like a cop out for an idealogical conflict that could put a character’s beliefs in the wrong.
The Snoke death isn’t a problem so much as the way he dies is incredibly lame and the mind reading scene of kylo’s word technicality is just dumb. But more than that it skirts the bigger issue with Snoke and the trilogies in general which is selling us on how this new galactic super power has come to be.
And then for the Rey heritage, a massive issue is it really doesn’t do anything to deliver on this idea being interesting. We don’t really see this have a lasting impact on her and it happens to late in the movie for this to be used as a an arc for her to over come. She has her fight of pulling the light saber apart and then next she’s off piloting doing triple kills without any sort of thought about how this effects her. This idea could have been interesting but it does nothing with this. Additionally now this does have some connection to the risk idea, the lack of this revelation being interesting is it never really says anything about her due to a lack of set up that she could be a nobody something that would both ease the audience into the possibility but also would create a dynamic for her with a flaw of refusing to accept the truth of this possibility until it is brought to the forefront.
I don’t know there’s a lot wrong with this movie, and while it failed it at least tried to do something interesting and the ideas it attempted actually had the potential to be good if they were well executed. This is why it’s the only one of the sequel trilogy I have any sort of iota of respect for.
Respect your opinion but disagree about the points you brought up.
In the case Luke, his emotional state makes sense for his character than people think. The Original trilogy was about Luke not only trying to save his father but also facing his fear of being tempt by the dark side, following the same path as Vader (this was foreshadow in the Cave scene and became stronger after discover that Vader was his father). Now we have a Luke who is older, a jedi master that everybody admires and see him as this living legend, which would probably make him feel all the heavy expectations... and he fails to live up to them by failing to prevent that one his apprentices, his own nephew, joins the dark side, all because he had brief moment of weakness and was almost tempt to kill Ben. Obvious he blame himself after seeing history repeat itself again, feeling that his presence will just lead to failure. It's only thanks to Rey and specially Yoda that Luke is able to overcome his trauma and help the rebels escape, putting his faith on the new generation while at the same time facing Ben by denying the sith the fight he so badly wants.
Snoke dying isn't a problem because it's not his story. He is not palpatine or villain who is in the story so Ben can redeem himself. He is there so Ben can kill him for his own selfish reasons, showing how far in the dark side he is. He is not Vader not wants to be redeem. That was the point of his journey until RoS screwed up.
As for Rey parents reveal, we don't see much impact because it wasn't the right time. It's the middle of climax, with the heroes having to save the rebels. She couldn't stop the film and have scene with Rey thinking about that, which is why RoS is so frustrating, as they waste the chance to explore this reveal, just like they did with Luke (he learned about Vader in Episode V but his struggle dealing with this information came in episode VI)
@@alexandrefrauches132 so your points are actually for the most part pretty inline with what my comment said and are things I for the most part agree with or at least don’t entirely disagree with. We both like the ideas that were presented but our disagreement is on elements in the execution.
For Luke, I think that the general direction was the right place to take his character and is an interesting progression from his prior and could also be utilized to serve as a revelation that is an emotional obstacle for Rey. My issue lies with that it felt like he needed to break character to get to Rian’s justification. Like kylo has some bad dreams and even for a moment Luke gets to the point of actually pulling his lightsaber on him, pulling his lit light saber on him, the same Luke who at the end of the previous story came to the point of willing taking lightning from a sixth and not fighting back because he still saw potential for good in his father who was often regarded as the most evil person in the galaxy. I’m sorry Rian couldn’t sell me on Luke’s actions that brought him there. I also just really hate the reused shot concept which just seemed incredibly lazy, and beyond that being built around a misunderstanding is an awful trope. All that it being a misunderstanding serves to do is remove any ideological conflict from the this development and dynamic between Luke and Kylo, and makes the conflict between them feel more forced and contrived. Beyond that I feel like Rian didn’t really deliver enough on this concept and didn’t utilize Luke disillusionment in a way that I find particularly interesting. So nothing is wrong with the inherent twist of Luke being disillusioned and failing his students, and infact like that concept as a direction for his character, I just think the film’s execution of this concept was poor.
For the Snoke thing I don’t disagree with anything you said (and actually 100% fully agree.) I still stand by what I said about the way they achieved his death as being lame, and more than that the lack of explanation for the first orders rise to power and how Snoke even got into the story (and where the f*** was he for all that time and what was he doing for that time during the previous trilogies) is a weakness that permeates throughout the series as he is the foundational catalyst that sets every conflict in motion, so when the foundation is something that feels incredibly unjustified and incongruous to the lore it weakens the causality of everything else in my opinion. (Now RoS did technically answer it but only through greater incongruency and a development that only served to dramatically undercut the trajectories of character arcs and anything interesting about them, but I don’t think that changes my point.) So yes in concept I love the direction this would have taken kylo’s character my only issues are the execution of the death itself and the execution of snoke having a lack of justification for existing (in that movie.) that said this is the least problematic by a good margin and the justification could have been salvaged in a competent way in the following movie had the writers for RoS have a functioning creative brain.
For the Rey thing a to some extent agree. However I think having her just return to good guys immediately and be acting unchanged cheering as she gets triple kills undercuts the development and is something I definitely don’t think needed to happen. I think it would have been much better to show how this character shattering revelation is going to have an effect on her by her not going to the final battle and being so lost without this goal of finding out who she’s supposed to be. Hell have her go all the way back to Jaku to really sell how she has emotionally regressed and hitting rock bottom. Or to give her character a removed agency and suspense towards how this will affect her they could have essentially froze her character by putting her out of commission after the Holdo maneuver light saber Tug-O-War maybe unconscious after using the force to get her to enscape pod or something. As it stands the bounce back makes it feel like they didn’t really want to muddy her character too much which in my opinion is a real shame. They didn’t need to conclude her arc in this movie but just give us more to show it’s affecting her.
The Luke to Rey comparison seems pretty weak as the resolution to episode v is Luke acting directly in distress to this revelation and that is the last main action we get from him which creates clear promise that he is deep within an arc and is in no way at a point of resolution. Rey’s involvement in the last act of the movie feels unaffected by this revelation and presents things almost like she’s gotten over it (even if that weren’t the intent.)
Here's the thing: I don't like the first Shrek. I enjoyed the second the fourth and even the third one way more. The scene where Fiona accidentally blows up a bird and cooks its eggs is a good example why. First two movies have an absolutely abysmal sense of humor, but the second one has enough good in it for me to forgive that. I'd say Shrek Forever is the best overall.
On the opposite, I loved the Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. All three sequel movies made me cry in the theater, Rise made me bawl, but Force Awakens only gets good at Starkiller base and is bad before that.
I love the prequel trilogy, but the only original trilogy movie I fully enjoy is Return of the Jedi, New Hope has nothing good going for it, and Empire makes me want to die whenever Solo is on screen with his "romance".
The fall of Luke Skywalker and the rise of the First Order in the first place both erase the catharsis of Anakin's redemption in Return of the Jedi. Where the prequals are narratively constructed in a way that offers new meaning to the Original Trilogy in a way that you can tell is natural and was planned from the beginning to a certain extent by giving Anakin a backstory as a hero, the sequals demonstrate in stripping the climax of the original series of its entire meaning that it was made as a tack-on continuation to a story that had already naturally concluded.
Rey lands the ship and holds the lightsaber
Luke: WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAAAAMP!?!
One of the worst subverting expectations I can remember is Quick Silver’s death in Age of Ultron. They spend the majority of the movie giving Hawkeye every death flag you could put in a movie then it subverts it by having Quick Silver die saving Hawkeye and to make it worse he looks dead in the camera and says “bet you didn’t see that coming”
What a waste of an Aaron Taylor-Johnson
The only twist i didnt mind in that movie was that Ray's parents didnt matter, but that way because we already had not one, but two characters who had an interesting heritage that could be fleshed out and carry the trilogy, Fin and Ben, and you dont need to be of an important lineage to be important.
Its just a shame that they not only didnt do anything with that, but decided to chuck it in the gutter and mock it on the way.
yah and i think it worked too because it's supossed to be dissapointing. Like, Rey really cared about her parents and who they were and she put them on a pedestal, only for her preconceived ideas about them to be crushed, that's pretty compelling imo. i just wish they didn't absolutly ruin it because Rey being a Palpatine makes no sense
@@robo1513 The fact that Rey was a palpetine retroactively turns the Starwars Saga into the Palpetine sage, the prequel was how Palpetine came to power and turned the chosen one into his puppet, the saga proper is how he ruled and in the end fooled the hero of the rebellion, and the sequel is how Palpetine survived and stole the name of the heroes of old.
Also, wasnt there some plot about how you coudnt kill him because then he would posses you? so you can make the argument that it isnt Rey who talks to the old lady back on the sand planet, but its Palpetine who has posessed her.
Wait since when did Finn have a notable heritage? His backstory is unknown before the FO.
@@wannabehistorian371 he is a turncoat from the First Order, that is the notable heritage. Its the first storm trooper that has been developed more then wilhelm scream, and the fact that they did nothing with that is the largest lost opportunity in the show.
You said the part of Shrek having it's first act be a "normal" story just to be fliped during the movie and wow, really helped me to get the point across with The Last Jedi, I really like most of the theme it tackles as the oposing forces of light and dark are a balance and need to keep both from overpowering the other and use of its characters (let's omit casino planet and Plasma), but this ideas are almost completely weird for someone who grew so close with the good/bad mentality of the force and admired Luke during their life.
I agree. The movie worked on you. It grounds the world and sets up a sequel we never got. So sad that the sequel trilogy ended on a cliffhanger with only two films:/
@@yemmohater2796 nope TLJ sucks
@@yemmohater2796
What kind of sequel would have worked for TLJ?
Given that Mauler made an 8 hour review of the last jedi and every Mauler stan also tried to make an 8 hour review of the last jedi, I thought that there weren’t any new angles to be made.
Clearly I was wrong.
I mean, all of Mauler's content is shallow as fuck so there's plenty of untapped potential. That being said, he poisoned the well, so nobody wants to hear it.
Let's be real, 8 hours is barely enough to scratch the surface on everything that was wrong with the Last Jedi.
@@MANJYOMETHUNDER111
Calling it shallow is a baffling claim. Just because he goes through films in extricating detail, doesn't mean he doesn't make broader points about the implications of the flaws and make broader and insightful points.
His unfinished Force Awakens critique has much more than shallow criticism without being far into the film at all, so I wonder what content of his you think is shallow.
@@StickNik I think both series of videos are shallow as fuck. Just like in EFAP, he fails to say anything substantive and relies on being overly analytical while saying nothing of substance. For hours.
People within his stupid little cult finally realized what was happening when he released that trashfire of a Dr Strange video. Here's hoping his downfall is swift. I have no time for him or his simps.
@@MANJYOMETHUNDER111
He says a lot of substance, I don't know how he couldn't with the amount of time and detail he has put into his critique videos. You can't really prove a negative and I don't really know where to start with showing substance without you giving an example of what substantive critique would be.
Unedited content like live EFAPs, however, can fall victim to their format and long runtimes. They have said plenty of substance but there can be a lot of wheel spinning, it can be entirely dependent on what they cover and the guests they have on.
Or just simply, the audience want the logic to be consistent.
Subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations, not caring about the stakes and what's gonna happen next.
Ray overpowering a trained force user Kylo Ren, the audience want to know why she is this powerful.
Kylo killing Snoke, the audience want to know what's his motivation.
If Luke act out of character, the audience should know why his core character shifted to someone unrecognizable.
Hyperspace kamikaze, the audience want to know why no one used it and not going to be used in the future.
Subverting people's expectations, which is what the story was building up to, without any reasonings, will annoy people, because nothing in the story makes sense anymore, the story can be whatever the writer decided to be.
"if you come in expecting the dragon to be evil" Me someone who's watched shrek hundreds of times since the age of 5. I literally don't remember a time when I didn't know Dragon was nice if you were nice to her. But Shrek subverting expectations is what made it such a progressive fairytale movie for it's time. Disney STILL doesn't have a fat princess. The closest was Merida and she's not large by any means she's just not size zero like every other princess. The fact that Fiona stays an Ogre and is still Pretty is so important. The fact that the second movie has Shrek a male character deal with body image issues instead of a women like always is also important.
Regardless of memes the first two Shrek movies are actually really good and you should rewatch them if you haven't in a while. Dreamworks had queer characters in their 2001 animated movie and disney is only now including a major supporting gay character in Strange New Worlds.
I can honestly say that I never expected to be watching a comparison video between the Last Jedi and Shrek, but I'm here for it
Great video! In my opinion, (early) Game of Thrones subverted expectations the best. Right off the bat you’re told what kind of world this is, and you know it may be foolish to expect standard story resolutions. But GoT was so damn good at keeping the outcome ambiguous that you hope for the standard fairy tale endings against the odds.
Yet the ending was all about subverting expectations the worst way possible, with several things coming and going for absolutely nothing, lack of general sense or purpose, out of character moments and lack of payoff for everything we saw so far. They could give the exact same plot beats, but at least write them decently, that ending simply ruined the show's finale.
This video subverted by expectations by being an interesting, nuanced, and thoughtful take on The Last Jedi, made in 2022.
TLJ Sucks
Yeah honestly. A Last Jedi video that isn't totally obnoxious? My expectations were definitely subverted.
@@seyio1717 You're being too nice.
I think a more clear point that could have been made is that Star Wars subverts it’s own tone, where as Shrek’s tone is subversion.
While I dislike the way TLJ handled subversion and enjoy Shrek's subversions, I don't feel like this comparison is entirely fair. Shrek is the first movie in a series, while TLJ is the 2nd (or the 8th, depending on how you look at it), as such, Shrek has no prior lore or expectations to live up to. Secondly, Shrek is primarily a comedy-adventure film, so many of its subversions are played off in a comedic nature. TLJ is more of an action-adventure film and subverting non-comedic aspects of a story in a satisfying way is generally more difficult I think. TLJ could definitely have done a better job at it, but to compare it to Shrek is really not fair.
Personally, I would rather compare it to Aliens. Aliens subverted the audience's expectations in the perfect way. Anyone coming in from the first movie would already know how dangerous the Xenomorph is, but could be lulled into a false sense of security with the way the marines are portrayed. Then BOOM, the marines get wiped out and everyone starts losing their minds. An excellent subversion that builds on the previously established lore, while introducing new ideas in the process.
This feels a bit like a stretch because Shrek isn’t exactly a subversion, it’s more of a parody than anything else. Plus Last Jedi played around with pre existing characters that SW fans can’t seem to agree on. I understand the comparison though, even if it feels like Apples to oranges
I think Final Fantasy XIV does a really good job of knowing when to play to expectations and when to subvert them. There are many shocking moments, but there are also times where it's like "I KNEW IT, HELL YEAH!" and you get the best of both worlds. The writers let people have those "I knew it" moments when it's more satisfying than surprise.
this is somehow the most hilarious and greatest comparison I've ever seen
tl;dr, subverting expectations only works when a lot of thought and care goes into the planning and execution, not just done for the sake of it
I think that a lot of writers look to "subverting expectations" as an easy way to get attention for their story. But the fact is that pulling off a good subversion - especially something huge, like a massive shift in Luke's character arc and personality - is really difficult. It's not something that can be done frivolously or in half-measures.
One way that I think is good to handle big subversions is to plant the seeds of them in a safer, more familiar context. Like have a character say or do something that, in the more conventional context, doesn't raise any eyebrows; but when the writing goes in a subversive direction, the audience can look back on a character's words or actions and realize that there were multiple ways to interpret it, including the way they didn't expect.
In other words, the way the story subverts expectations has to be planned carefully from the start. But there was no way to do that with the Sequels, because they were getting ping-ponged from one director to another and there was little or no effort put towards planning them out in advance. If Luke had been a character, even briefly, in the first movie, and we got a suggestion - not a confirmation, but a suggestion - that he'd been affected negatively by recent events, I think it would have been received better instead of slapping the audience in the face with it and giving it no build up until it just happens in the second movie.
Just something like Han Solo telling Rey to curb her enthusiasm, that nobody's seen Luke for a while and that when they did last see him, he was struggling with all that had happened. Even just that much, to not give away how bad Luke's mental state had gotten, but to sow the seeds of it - maybe in a less direct way than I'm suggesting here - would have improved it a lot. But it's something you have to plan for.
Luke being a hermit and losing hope should be the expectation. George Lucas wanted this in his story and it was already established in The Force Awakens by Han and Leia. How silly do someone have to be, to not expect Luke to have changed already from what we see in TFA? Rian didn't subvert expectation on that matter. However he did on the topic of Snoke and Rey's heritage, which was simply great story decisions.
Luke is a story of hope. How one may - search for it - lose it - and become a symbol for it. The next interesting thing about Luke's character is if he was losing hope, and show how someone can become themselves again. Luke sacrificed himself to become a symbol for hope. On crait he wasn't even in physical form, he was the embodiment of hope it self. He's a legend.
I mean on top of (or to add to) the importance of a character/plot/arc/place to its audience, it probably certainly didn’t help that Star Wars had decades upon decades of fan-canon officially handled by Lucasfilm.
Tons of expanded material where Luke does become what everyone hoped and expected: an experienced Grand Jedi Master, great uncle/dad, and still hopeful, good Luke at his core despite his struggles.
So for the fans who read all of that stuff for years and years, seeing this sudden heel turn in canon is the worst kind of whiplash. I know the majority of fans don’t read that stuff, but still.
Shrek came into existence at a point when people were already falling out of love with the Disney Renaissance, and we're very ready to see a film that challenged its whole ethos. It was safe because the people who loved Disney were secure enough to not worry about some random movie poking fun at their favorite megacorp, and most people at least thought Disney deserved some degree of mockery.
Star Wars fans, on the other hand, have been in a constant state of fragility since the release of the Phantom Menace, and are constantly ready to get angry at anything that doesn't fit their ideas about the universe. Personally, having the expanded universe removed from cannon stung, given that I have literally read hundreds of those books, even though I knew it was a smart decision. I don't think there is any possible main series Star Wars movie that wouldn't anger a significant portion of the fandom. While The Last Jedi was definitely poking the bear, I think it is better than the other two merely by virtue of trying to actually do something, and not cowering in the shadow of the original trilogy.
RedLetterMedia said it's best about TLJ: I love when my expectations are subverted with something less interesting.
When we add that the movie shits on SW's legacy, is logically inconsistent, throws away all hooks from TFA and leaves it's sequel with nothing- yeah, terrible movie.
And the worst part is that you could have many ideas from TLJ done well, like Luke being a broken hermit. But it would take care and skill in writing and Ruin Johnson has neither care for star wars or writing ability. Anywho, the topic has been covered in like 90% by Mauler's 3 part critique so I'm not gonna analyze the movie further here
This is such a great example of how to do subversion right but also be wary how it can be a double edge sword. Lovely Lowart.
Great video! I love how you've written this video to give a more nuanced look how these films have subverted expectations.
Now THIS is true content
So, subversion should be like an onion, it should have layers.
You subvert expectations by giving people something they didn't know they wanted.
Luke Skywalker being an a**hole is something I know I never wanted and I'll never accept.
Finally, someone who isn't either a whiny baby or in love with the movie talking about TLJ. With your Ben 10 and Kirby videos you've alienated me, but I'm back now that I see you still have something of substance to say.
a video that talks about the last jedi in a nuanced way without devolving into movie objectively bad/good? that certainly subverted my expectations!
I don't know if this is the best comparison to make considering last Jedi was a sequel and and Shrek was the first in its series. You could probably make the same point in a more imapctful manner if you used a film like days of future past.
SHREK IS LOVE. SHREK IS LIFE MAN!!!!
Unironic comparison of The Last Jedi and Shrek is not something i thought i would see on this channel.
the last jedi had one of the most memorable movie moments in the worst way possible for me, when ren was talking and told her to say it, the theatre i was in did a collective gasp and then when she said they were nobody, it felt like the air was let out of a balloon... it was a disaster and i have found there is a small subset that defends the sequels but most people either ignore them or actively hate them
the only good thing about the rise of skywalker was i imagined myself sat next to that round faced simpleton, elbowing him in the ribs everytime disney actively worked to undo what he did
I mean like Yeah shreck is the funny haha meme man But fr tho the first 2 movies are goated
The sequel to a certain very influential space-war anime franchise did something similar to what last Jedi did with Luke with it's protagonist, and it landed very well. So i don't think the IDEA is bad. The execution is awful. (tbf the character in that anime, and luke, are very different people, so what works with one might not work with the other)
For fucks Sakes it was already said in Force awakens (Taken directly from the script)
MAZ
Han told me.
(reaches out, hold REY'S HAND)
Dear child. I see your eyes. You
already know the truth. Whomever
you're waiting for on Jakku, they're
never coming back. But... there's
someone who still could. (in reference to luke)
Why does every one say the fact some one tells her in the second film her parents dont matter when it was said to her by some one who it seems ray respected more in the first fucking movie then both Kylo or Snoke.
But no it seems every one forgets this line. Every one makes a big deal out of who are ray's parents but i never understood that did we make a big deal out of who any other Jedi's parents are no only RAY.
8th and 9th were garbage movie and yeah shrek subverts expectations much better then Episode 8 but my point its the expectation was allready broken in episode 7.
But with Rey's parents, we didn't know WHY they left her behind.
There was the possibility that it would be used EFFECTIVELY as part of the story, instead of a throwaway line of "Ha ha, your parents hate you!", and actually matter for her character arc.
The expectation wasn't smashed/broken, it was set up as something that MIGHT matter, and should have been used to change/improve Rey.
But it was wasted for the cinematic equivalent of jingling keys and the fake ball throw trick.
Phin is the big disappointment in the squales.. a Strom trouper become a part of the rebels?!! Such a cool idea whit so many possibilities.but man not planning the trilogy really hurt him.
Perfect video. 10/10 would subvert again
I don’t think those twists are good or bad, but if you are going to take risks, you had better be sure the rewards are worth it.
The movie "While you were sleeping."
The opening sets up a romance between Mr. "In A Coma" and Ms. "I haven't met him.", but during the movie Ms. Twit falls in love with Mr. NOT in a coma, and by the end you want the actual romance instead of twitty's juvenile fantasy.
...Wow, I have gotten MEAN about Hollywood cliches. "While you were sleeping" is actually a movie I LIKE.
I think maybe GoT was the "sUbVeRtEd ExPeCtAtiOnS" show
Sigh
it was so good
There's good and bad subversion when it comes to fiction, and it's based on what kind of expectations your audience has. Expecting something cool and then being shut down feels bad, expecting something lame and getting something great feels awesome! Evangelion is a good example, starting in 2007 Khara released the first of Shin Gekijouban Evangelion, literally the New Evangelion Movies, and the first one was very safe- essentially a supercut of the first 6 episodes of the anime series, all remastered and with new music and voice acting. There were a few plot changes and additions, but otherwise it was what would be expected based on the trailers. But the second one turned this on it's head, it opens with a brand new pilot in a brand new EVA unit in a brand new NERV facility fighting a brand new Angel to brand new music, and from this point things diverge so much from the plot of the original series that by the end of the 2nd movie, it's an ENTIRELY different story that just shares the same first act and almost the same characters.
3.0 though is where things got divisive, BECAUSE it's an entirely new direction, and due to events at the end of 2.0- events that are sort of explained in 3.0 and more explored in the final movie 3.0+1.0- the world has undergone this massive, unexplained shift, and the main character is blamed for it while being just as confused as the audience. This is a type of subversion that should be bad, but it works with the themes of the story and helps the audience empathize with the main character more, because he's no longer the most important player. The final movie then combines both these positive and negative subversive approaches, giving us a beautiful first act of the movie, followed by a second act that starts slow but soon becomes filled with action and fights, that sees the main character not piloting an EVA at all despite having been the main pilot in the previous three movies and since the start of the franchise, then bringing it home with the final act analyzing these characters and breaking down the subtext of the director's relationship to the franchise, which comes back around and lines up with the expectations set forth by the original anime series and how meta it got during the TV ending.
You can give the audience exactly what they're expecting, and you can rip the rug out from under them, it's just all about the context of how you're doing it, and how the subversion will be perceived.
Nice title
Lowart, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised by Scooby Doo mystery incorporated.
I never thought I'd see a video essay comparing the Star Wars sequel trilogy and Shrek, but yeah sure I'm down for this.
I don't think the issue with the new Star Wars was subversion in and of itself, rather it was an unrelenting series of ritualistic humiliation towards the original characters, as the primary method of introducing and elevating the new characters.
Whether they got there through subversion or not, I think that's what really pissed a lot of people off.
The same happens with Avatar, the new God of War, or even the FFVII "Remake" ritualistically humiliating the original VII and the fans of it at the same time.
On the other end of the spectrum you have something like DMCV, which subverts your expectations while being respectful of its original characters and elevating them and I'm trying to think of other examples like this but I can't really. Seems like everyone goes for the "Stomp on the original characters" route.
Do you know the Star Wars content by youtubers Rick Worley and Style is substance and/or the book "Star Wars Heresies"? I think you'd love it.
Meh, back in '99 TPM subverted expectations (and certainly not in a good way) and the fans tore it to shreads as a result. Nothing new to see here.
Sherk was clever in how they subverted audiences expectations. The Last Jedi only used subversion just for the sake of it without any nuances.
I read the title as “The Last Jedi vs Shrek - how to make Stuart Little” and was completely confused.
the problem with a subversion that replaces something with nothing is pretty straightforward.
Some subversions are so on the nose, you can tell what the writers think you'd be thinking in this moment, which is really condescending depending on the case. It's unexpected in the most expected ways.
After all has been said and done with the sequel trilogy, the last jedi is my favorite of the 3. All of them are bad in their own way, but i enjoyed the last jedi the most. I think it was bad in being part of the sequel trilogy and didn't help create a cohesive narrative like the original or prequals did. But the other two movies were also bad at being a sequel trilogy.
I think that trilogy's issue was less of an issue about expectations, and more about directions.
It was made to exploit the franchise and not because they had something they wanted to tell.
So, they threw stuffs at the wall hoping, something, anything would stick.
So, TLJ didn't seemed like it was part of a whole (none of the three movies did) and you had nothing to really cling to...
It seems to me, this movie was more enjoyable to a casual, non-Star Wars fan like myself (I liked the movie, the same way I liked Avatar), than to die hard fans, and that's pretty interesting.
The problem of subverting expectations is that unless you build a proper story with it, then you just have the ruble from what you smashed.
Its subversion its deconstruction with nothing of value replacing it. Just like all other things in modern western culture its just communist rot from within.
Infinity war.
That's it. We're done here.
I don't think the comparison is fair because no one expected anything from the first Shrek movie.
I wasn't attached to the OT of Star Wars films and loved The Last Jedi (granted, the theatrical release from my country included a lot of very good scenes that were cut from the final movie) and I loved the twist with Rey and Snoke precisely because no one saw it coming and anything could happen from there
Metal Gear Solid 2 is a really good example of a story that did what TLJ tried to do, but which did it right. It's a sequel that uses its first act to set up expectations that it'll be a traditional sequel, only to completely flip the script with the second act, and while TLJ used the third act to return to the status quo, MGS2 used the third act to flip the script yet again and subvert the expectations built up by its subversion of expectations throughout the second act.
It also helps that the entire story was based on exploring the implications of "The more you know, the more you know you don't know", questioning why we have faith in anything if we're doomed to realize that everything we know is but a convenient half truth.
Government can't be trusted.
The DNC, the GOP Old Guard Leadership, and the federal government are corrupt.
The mainstream news lies.
Experts can be bought or pressured into lying.
Reject modernism/progressivism. Embrace the good traditions.
The basic issue is last jedi and force awakens were mediocre and lacked hype/memery of the EU legends. Then anyone who accepted the last jedi were shit on by rise of skywanker. Also skywanker was dumber than the last jedi which also hurt it. That combination of movies has killed my interest in new Star Wars for me it was last TCW season and thats it unless disney sells star wars. Disney has finally acted malicious enough that I dont want to give them money ever.
a very good comparison actually
Day 8 of Novidember.
These days, The best subversion of expectation would be not subverting the expectations at all while hinting that you are trying to.
Lowvember
I did not have this on my bingo card.
Now this is podracing
wow thats a comparison
Yes
The thumbnail 💀
The first subversion, Rey's parentage, was done extremely well in my opinion. The expectation isn't built on previous events or character traits but previous story beats and Rey's own expectations. The subversion is tied fundamentally into her character and should have been a catalyst for a major shift in both her character and the story of the film. It didn't, but that isn't the fault of the subversion but of the rest of the poor writing in the film.
The subversion of Luke, on the other hand, was done extremely poorly. Unlike Rey's parentage Luke has well defined character traits and motivations that we should expect him to still hold despite the passage of time. His abandonment of them and reversal of his core character traits with no build-up makes very little sense. But the worse part is that the subversion doesn't serve any greater point in the story. Rey still "receives" her training (which is mostly self guided and unneeded) and Luke never contributes meaningfully towards the plot.
The only reason subversion has become a naughty word in modern storytelling is because writers have started subverting expectations for the sake of the subversion and not for the sake of the plot.
you can subverted my expectations in a way that make sense
The Last Jedi is honestly underrated.
Loved it
TLJ does not just „subvert expectations“ by giving audiences something different than what they expected. TLJ just gives less than what was expected. Rey parents: nothing. Finn‘s character arc: nothing. Phasma: easily defeated. Snoke: dead with no deeper explanation. A bunch of fake-out death: all meaningless. Casino side plot: meaningless. The whole story: going around in circles.
The only thing TLJ deconstructs is the mystery box type of story telling. It‘s like getting a big present for Christmas and then you open it and the box is empty. Sure, you did not expect that, but it‘s a shitty reveal. Literally anything else of substance would have been better than nothing.
Honestly, I love risky subversions. Final Fantasy VII Remake's ending had me giggling with glee for weeks on end, making it one of my favorite games of all time and it still lives in my head rent-free. TLJ didn't do that because it had no respect for what it was subverting and the subversions themselves weren't very interesting or executed well. FFVII's Remake shows its love for the original in every little detail they put in and treats its subversion as the heavy-hitting game-changer that it is, setting the twist up right from the beginning of the game.
TLJ likes to turn a lot of its subversive moments into jokes, telling the audience that they are silly for expecting anything different when casually burning down the remnants of Jedi culture as unneeded baggage of the past, making Finn into a fool bumbling along the sidelines and having Luke throw his lightsaber away as a joke. It shows how little the director and writers cared for what came before and how much they care for their own ambitions.
I think it's fine to give the audience something different than they were expecting, as long as it's done well. I just think the TLJ is super messy, with way too many plot holes to excuse. It feels like if the script had like 2 rewrites, it could have been incredible
Calling the subversions of TLJ "risks" assumed that pissing people off wasn't the goal. It's a Rian Johnson film, making half the audience hate it is something he wants from all of his movies. To do this he uses his own formula of "subversion" that gives people the opposite of what they expect. Movie buffs and critics are used to the tropes and thus find these subversions refreshing. More casual fans who don't need to be refreshed, and hardcore fans who see the movie more than once, will notice how flawed the writing has to be to fit in these subversions which makes them hate the movie.
There is a lot that this video is missing, one of the things missing from this video is the sheer amount of subversions that the Last Jedi does where Ryan is intentionally cutting down basically every sacred cow of Star Wars there is essentially nothing that works out the way you would expect it to in a normal Star Wars story there's also the fact that a comedy is a far more forgiving medium for a subversive story partially because on some level comedy is synonymous with subversion, also that a news story that doesn't have any preconceived notions already attached to it necessarily is going to be far more able to play freely with expectations but the more for lack of a better term baggage attached to a story The More the fans of that story resist change.
There's also the fact that the Last Jedi was just not a good movie even at its best the action and spectacle was often sloppy and underwhelming, I'm sorry but I really don't get what others see in that movie even to call it a visual spectacle masterpiece, the acting was often terrible as well the writing was inconsistent the comedy was terrible I really don't get what people see in this movie even taking a side any story based criticisms
I don't agree. Problem who were Rey's parents was not troubling the characters of the Last Jedi. The issue of parents was actually resolved in TFA in scene with Maz Kanata. Rey herself never expected to be descendant of someone significant. We, as the audience, expected her to be special because she beat Kylo Ren with ease twice in force and in combat (without training). Ryan Johnson when he was making TLJ couldn't care less about motivations of characters from the previous movie. That's why Luke in first scene is in Jedi sunday robes to reveal he hates Jedi and want them all to end. That's why Snoke dies like an idiot because Ryan wanted Kylo to be main villain. Ryan is just retarded storyteller.
Saying Rey won with ease is missing a lot of context.
Kylo was just shot by a wookie bowcaster which would kill most people, became more unsure of himself after killing Han weakening his connection to the darkside, just got out of other fights, and was trying to bring back Rey alive.
Kylo could have easily beaten Rey if he was trying to kill her.
I think one overlooked reason that the Rey being nobody was a bad pill to swallow for many fans was because of how much of a MaRey Sue she was in EP7 and continued to be into EP8 (and 9) with no history or training, so they were praying for The Last Jedi to fix that problem (among others) from the Force Awakens. I remember a lot of people saying "it's only the first film in the trilogy" in response to critique of it back when it came out, and then the similar "sequel will fix it" argument was used with people critiquing The Last Jedi, although to a lesser degree.
Is she really more of a Mary sue than luke? Luke was randomly discovered to be gifted with no training (his Force use against the yeti and his cloud city telepathy which wasnt taught) and born from a legend, it just took one extra movie to find out. Besides, Rey still struggles and isn't boring due to a lack of flaws (a Mary sue)--she just has different flaws to Luke.
They didn't even need to "fix" Rey Mary Sue-ness.
That film could have been better (it's impossible for it to be great with the casino scene), our expectations would be subverted if Rey accepted Kylo's offer to join him.
Turn Rey, someone that is really strong out of nowhere and lack any meaningful guidance, into a villain and BAM, you got something interesting going on.
But they balked at the finishing line and we got that atrocious nonsensical thing at the end. The thing they should have doubled down into subverting, they got cold feet about.
@@yemmohater2796 100% she is the definition of MaRey Sue and Luke fits very few of the criteria. Purely on power levels:
Luke genetically inherits force sensitivity (hence Lucas has to explain midichlorians in the prequels, his force-sensitivity was indirectly trained in the context of his piloting, and he has to have the force explained to him by Obi-Wan and be taught the bare minimum basics and see Jedi powers in action with the mind trick. He ends A New Hope by enhancing his prior piloting skills with the force and Obi-Wan's ghostly encouragement. The OT films have anywhere between months to over a year between them, in which time Luke can force a lightsaber in Empire and a handful of small rocks after training with Yoda, and extends his telekinetic use to a force choke in Return, but that's about it beyond some force communication/sensing. The fights he has against Vader he repeatedly fails in saber skill, force use, is unable to shield his mind or quell his thoughts when Vader finds out about Leia, and only succeeds when giving into rage/the dark side at the very end against his father who is conflicted about if he can even kill his son.
Rey starts the Force Awakens with seemingly little if any detailed knowledge of what a Jedi is, proceeds to succeed in piloting the Falcon with supreme skill with no prior experience, manages to land her 2nd blaster shot at a distance with a fatal blow, manages to resist Kylo's mind probing, somehow pulls of a mind trick in the moment she tries it, manages to beat Kylo's years of training even if he was injured, all in the span of a day-ish of that first film. Practically a day later in the sequel, she beats a bunch of Snokes guards, matches Kylo's powers again and force lifts fuck tons of rocks with ease. In the final part, she casually floats in the air full out, and can teleport things.
Her being a nobody goes against all the establishment of Anakin needing training to not even be comparably as powerful as her despite years of training in the Jedi Temple, and an innate chosen one level of talent.
If you could actually explain to me how Reys struggles even compare to Lukes, I'm clearly very incredibly biased and already had these arguments years ago about this, but I'm all ears. Full disclosure I'm in the camp that the Force Awakens is such a poor foundation that there's slim chance the trilogy could be good with it as the introduction. Luke being on the island needed a good reason to work, and Rey being instantly powerful without being Yoda's example of the dark side being the quick and easy path needed a perfect reason.
@@kamikaze5528 Yeah, maybe.
For me it would need to lean into Rey only succeeding using the dark side a lot more. Throughout the films, she often acts in rage and anger without a hint of dark side corruption, only Luke saying she went straight to the dark, and a spooky sharp teeth vision.
Having Yoda explain that the dark side is the quick and easy path, and having Rey do the quick and easy path of levelling up is such a dissonance for me though it's hard to imagine how the Force Awakens can stay intact as it is and the trilogy to still be any good. I'm in the camp that Force Awakens is technically the worst despite seeming the best, purely because it was such a poor foundation for the sequels.
@@StickNik Oh, I don't disagree that it's all bad. The Force Awakens tries too hard to be A New Hope, but fails every place it matters.
Last Jedi was such a let down
I will give rise of Skywalker one thing, it was the cinematic equivalent of eating someone's lunch and that someone is Rian Johnson. Every single little thing he set up Abrams threw away and everything he wrote Abrams undid similar to how Rian did to Abrams.
That is not a good thing
@@yemmohater2796 No it is, Abrams subverted Rians subversions.
Hm, yes, interesting, but have you considered that the people angry at the subversion of their expectations are huge bastards and thus their opinions are invalid?