Remember: The magic of subverting expectations well, is not the the subversion. Anyone can come along and just do what's unexpected out of nowhere (*ahem* Johnson). What takes real talent is the expectation. Leading the audience down a false path that _feels_ genuine, only to pull the rug out and still have the real path make sense, _that's_ magic.
Take a look at Brandon Sanderson's second book in the Mistborn trilogy, The Well of Ascension. I won't spoil it, but he intentionally leans into familiar fantasy tropes only to COMPLETELY rug pull all of them in the climax, recontextualizing everything you thought you knew. And when you look back at the story, the clues were there all along.
What I like is when the subversion not only makes sense, but makes sense MORE than what you may have been thinking. Then it makes it feel like the definitive answer, and not like it could’ve been any one of many options, which each kinda make sense and are equally viable
Arcane has multiple strong female characters, both protagonists and antagonists. What it also does is still retain strong male characters, the female characters aren't strong because the male characters are weak, they are simply strong characters. Its maddeningly well written and I hope they continue the quality in the 2nd season.
@@newbie4789 I'd say it's more like they permanently unlearned it when Gamora was killed by Thanos and they misread why people were angry. Before Infinity war and Captain Marvel, they didn't seem to have any problem just making well-developed female characters that are also strong without messing up men, but that's all over now.
Agreed about Arcane, but regarding your implication - Poe literally destroyed a dreadnaught's initial defenses all on his own, Finn saves Rose (a female character in distress) by killing his abusive ex-boss (a very morally weak female character) and Luke ends up saving the day and the movie literally ends with a bunch of kids being inspired by him
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 Yes, but Poe spends the entire movie after that being talked to like he's a reckless idiot (and the film implies through Leia that this is what he was being), Finn spends most of the film being 'educated' on how things aren't so black and white + has to be pulled out of his major character choice by Rose because his choice was 'wrong', and Luke spends most of the movie being spiteful and unhelpful, only saving the day with the sacrifice play after Yoda shows up to slap him down and tell him why he was wrong and that Ray already had all the Jedi texts (and Luke) could have taught her. Every victory or near-victory of a male character is paired with them being 'humbled'/mistreated in some way and is often paired with the message that if they had just believed in their perfect female counterparts then everything would have been better. Meanwhile all the female characters are doing the 'humbling'/mistreating and, as previously stated, are depicted as being 'in the right' and usually more competent than their male counterparts.
@@deamongimli (1/2) OK, so... remove all that stuff, then what? Realize that they would be mary sues (I hope you at least realize that a male character can be one, too) in that scenario? one really can't win with you f*ckin' people Also, good job missing the point of what Finn's plotline was actually about considering DJ is presented as wrong for fence-sitting and not picking the clearly good side But yes, all the female characters are in the right, especially (again) Phasma, you sure are being objective and unbiased right now Good job ignoring scenes like Luke's first lesson, where he is the one in the right and Rey is not only ignorant and naive when it comes to the force but her draw to the dark side nearly ends up killing them both. Or hey how about the one where Snoke (a man) wipes the floor with her, needing Kylo (another man) to save her? Interestingly I never see you fine gentleman bring up that one, curious, I wonder why, truly a mystery (the answer to which is "lying by omission")
To me arcane is proof you can have almost all the things that modern audiences like and still make a good show at the same time. It literally has almost everything most people would complain is pandering yet did it very tactfully, atleast in my opinion
It worked because, unlike in most instances, it wasn't pandering to anybody. The female characters' only personality traits aren't the simple fact that they're female, the black characters' personality traits aren't the simple fact that they're black, etc. When I was watching Arcane I never even made note of the various characters' race and gender, because they weren't put in place to check boxes. You can tell that the creators of the show just wanted to create a good experience everything else be damned. No look at the Star Wars Prequels. Preachy would be a generous term to describe how their characters are written.
That is one of the best things about Arcane, it isnt woke even though it has some very similar qualities, no character feels put in place to be a pandering device, no character gets forcibly added a new trait to satisfy a portion of the audience, everything is very natural. Also the show puts little focus to the few things that could be considered as woke, it always has the plot in mind and sometimes you are so enthralled by what is happening you might not even notice anything like that, at least that happened to me. God i love this show
I meana large part of "modern audiences" obviously don't like the things that are complained about by them, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining. I think it's a loud minority that likes the crap people use to make cookie cutter remakes and retellings. But the reason people dislike it is because everything else is sacrificed for that inclusion. Arcane doesn't sacrifice anything, it barely emphasizes the aspects that "modern audiences" like and instead emphasizes the story being told, the relationships and actually interesting politics instead of identity and sexuality.
@@ethanaterx5046 and its also very accurate lorewise. Piltover and Zaun's position on the map make them a perfect trade route, because they are the only ground that connects Valoran and Shurima which are 2 great continents with lots of various cultures and races. So people of different race or skin color staying there makes perfect sense. Its not like they threw them in a place where only white people live or something.
@@ethanaterx5046 yes! and the relationship between Caitlyn and Vi wasn’t forced or made a big deal out of either- the only “big deal” that was made of it was the fact that Jinx thought Vi would be replacing her with Caitlyn, which makes completely logical sense to her character and there wasn’t any of the “ohh but they’re gayyyy” bs that so often gets shoved in audiences faces to yeah, tick another box. they just love and care for each other as humans do.
When I was watching arcane, through both the 2nd and 3rd arcs, I was so hoping that Jinx would come back as Powder, but part of me new that wasn’t going to happen. I have a little bit of hope right there at the last episode, and at Vi and Powders initial attempt at reunification at the end of the 2nd arc, but I think the show went in the right direction with it
@@master_samwise I am familiar with the LoL lore, so I more or less knew where Jinx had to end up at the end, but man, did it hit hard... Even harder than the warehouse scene, because back then you still think that there are still 5 episodes for redemption.
@@kardnails8729 Yeah I was gunna say soimething similar. Anyone familiar with who Jinx is, What she has done and what she becomes knew going in that there was no happy ending for her, not really. Jinx is a broken mess of psychological disorders and fucked priorities. We didn't go in hoping she would be saved, we went in wanting to find out how she became who she is and why she can't be saved. I think we got that and so, so much more with Arcane. It blew pretty much everyone away with how great it was and rightfully so. Tbh I think the show is a masterclass in how to write something that appeals to both long term fans and newcomers alike. Powder/Jinxs conversion and lack of redemption is a great shocker moment for people who are unfamiliar with her character and the way it is explained and executed is a wonderfully written explaination of the things we already know about her. Not to mention expanding on Vi and Cait and their relationship is a big win for League fans everywhere. We all shipped them before it was confirmed and to have it solidly canonical is a huge win for the fanbase.
That's exactly what I Loved. It was like we knew it will not happen but we just wanted it to happen, Like many stuff irl. We need some things to happen even though we know it won't happen... And it always keeps us invested
We see two brilliant scientists killing themselves in a state of the art laboratory trying to harness the power of that energy, it’s literally like half the plot, then an insane and constantly distracted teenager does it with no effort offscreen in the last episode in a grungy and poorly lit attic filled with trash. Arcane was like 95% as stupid as TLJ.
I actually like how Rey’s parents were (or well at least supposed to be (sort of?)) nobodies. I thought that it was good subversion too. Cool to see I’m not alone
Personally, I found it stupid, though not necessarily in and of itself. Having a Jedi character be a descendant of nobodies is, despite this video's seeming to think otherwise, perfectly normal for Jedi. That's almost a defining characteristic of being a Jedi. Only a few, like Count Dooku (former Jedi) had actually important parents. Nothing that this video says was positive about TLJ is in any way new. The problem for Rey's parentage is, well, frankly, Rey herself. She's too inexplicably powerful, doing things in the first two films that we rarely see Star Wars characters do even in animation or video games, for it to make a lick of sense for her to be the child of a couple of deadbeats, though that still might have been better than what TROS decided to do. Then there's the issues of Leia comforting Rey, who she's barely met, in TFA after she gets back from Starkiller Base and trusts her with the Falcon AND finding Luke, and of Anakin's old lightsaber calling out to Rey. Besides the fact that lightsabers DON"T DO THAT, why would it do that for her specifically? Logically, in terms of storytelling, there should be some kind of connection there. Put more simply, the idea by itself isn't horrible, even if it misses the fact that the numbered films (and their efforts to call all nine movies the Skywalker Saga make this even worse) were supposed to be the story of the Skywalker family, starting with Anakin's rise and fall, then moving on to Luke's story and Anakin's redemption. The problem is that it is being implemented in the wrong place (a SKYWALKER SAGA film, where there's a lot of connection between characters), fails to understand that this isn't something new to this universe (just look at the old EU), and indirectly makes mincemeat of the universe's lore.
You know who else's parents were "nobodies"? Anakin - freaking - Skywalker. His mom was literally just a random slave on Tatooine, and his father (possibly) did not even exist (and the implications of what it would mean if he did exist - considering Shmi doesn't remember him at all, are quite disturbing for a Star Wars movie)
The biggest problem with Rey's parents being nobodies is... her saying out loud to Kylo (and the audience) that they were nobodies. The last film established that Rey simply wanted to find them, she knew who they were, she didn't expect them to be significant characters in the galaxy's history. The idea isn't bad but the execution is tone deaf, it's like she is breaking the fourth wall and actually commenting on stuff that only exists outside the universe of the movie.
Let's also not forget, that Anakin Skywalker's parents were "nobodies" as well - his mother was just some random slave on Tatooine, and his father is completely unknown - so it's not really much of a subversion. The whole "humble origins" is as much of a trope (if not more) as "heroic legacy" so I don't really get what's supposed to be subversive about Rey's parents.
But THIS film did establish prior set up of her caring - her telling Luke that she wants to find out how she fits into all of this, Ren saying that she keeps trying to tie herself in that way and that this is her greatest weakness, her going to that dark side hole to try and reveal their identity and then finally Kylo telling her "you have no place in this story".
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 exactly. Anakin Skywalker was born special, but he was born to a random slave woman on a planet so far out that the credits weren't an accepted currency.
@@SebasTian58323 I like how you keep ignoring that his father was essentially the force itself (which was according to a novel influenced by Palpatine to cause that to happen) but yes, totally random
I'd like to make another point about Jinx and Vi meeting again: My expectation was for Jinx and Vi to be enemies. I expected Jinx to still be mad about what happened, even expected her to be mad at Vi for not coming when she lit the flare. This was further set up by the fact that they are enemies in game and it shows them fighting in the opening credits. I was expect them the have a final battle where Jinx may be redeemed after being defeated. But none of that happened.
An important element to add to your debate on expectation subversion has to do with something I think should be touched upon: believability. The trope of the young childs in Arcane leads to the idea that, to prove herself, Powder will be there, use her toys and save the day. That's how it should go following the expected path. You could subvert that path in any number of ways, like for example, Powder changing sides and becoming Jinx without buildup or explanation (not saying that's a good path for it). But the one chosen is the best subversion possible because it is believable: if you are a little girl playing with explosives you don't understand and using them in an uncontrolled manner, the logical consequence is that people are gonna get hurt and things won't go as you would think they would. The trope, since it's supposed to be the hero doing it and not the backstory for the villain, is set in a way that we expect the unreasonable to be what happens (that she would save the day), when in real life such an outcome would not be expected because we don't have heroes and plotlines in the real world. So a large part of doing a good subversion of expectations has to do with you making that alternative take actually feel more real than the expected one, like almost unavoidable once it comes to pass: of course Rei's parents are not Skywalkers, did you really think the galaxy is so small every important character has to be from the same family? Well yes, that was the expectation to many, but the reasonable situation is actually the subversion.
I'd argue that Rey's parents being nobody is still a bad example of subverting expectations. Let's start with what the purpose of subversion is: it is to change an expected arc's direction in a way that is still logically consistent on a rewatch and creates new implications to consider and new paths for the characters to take. Arcane's third episode is great because its subversion is entirely telegraphed by the characters and their motivations. It goes against the expected convention of a group of young kids against unstoppable odds, but the character dynamics lead to choices that will naturally prevent the expected convention from properly forming. Once Powder is told that she's not ready by the one person that has always had her back, it doesn't matter how sound the decision is to leave her behind because Powder will do anything in her power to prove herself, no matter how destructive it ends up. Moreover, this change in arc creates new paths for the characters to follow as they are fundamentally shaped in drastically different ways by the events. Compare this to Rey's parents being nobody. Rey's parent's could have been anybody, regardless of preestablished relevance, that would make Rey reconsider things about herself or the hope that she was holding onto or make others see Rey in a different light. Instead, we get nothing, a dead end, a surface-deep subversion. This was exacerbated by the fact that Rey's concern for her parents was already resolved in TFA when Maz told her that whoever she was waiting for on Jakku isn't coming back and that she should instead seek Luke to train her. Her sudden interest in her parents again in TLJ is jarring without something to reignite this interest. But the whole reason her parents have been made so important are because of two main flaws in Rey. 1. She is lacking in any other defining trait like Luke or Anakin had, so audiences latch onto the one promise of development that they've been presented with, hoping that it will lead to something that will define her. 2. She is given too many skills that let her escape situations that the plot throws at her. The Prequels already established that Jedi can come from anywhere, Rey isn't special in that regard. Anakin wasn't from some blessed bloodline, he was the start of the bloodline. Obi-Wan wasn't from some dynasty, neither was Mace Windu or Yoda or Qui-Gon. They all trained to be as skilled as they are, and proper dynasties are unlikely considering the Jedi Doctrine's stance on attachments. But Rey didn't need to train to be so inexplicably skilled, so people speculated that she must have inherited her skills. If she had some defining character traits that helped her better distinguish herself or wasn't as skilled to start (preferably both), questions about her parents would not be as significant.
I think you made a very important point: You're taking your characters to a new level. I believe this whole "Subverting expectations" started with Game Of Thrones, especially in their episode "The Red Wedding". However, that moment wasn't there just cause, it pushed our characters and the audience's understanding to a new level where you can't just be naive in a political world and think that everyone will play fair, some will play dirty and backstab you if it's more profitable. I also noticed this trick used to perfection in the anime Attack On Titan where every time you think you have a grasp on the plot and worldbuilding, the show goes NOPE! YOU'VE SEEN NOTHING YET! And reveals a new element in the story to make things feel darker and more complicated.
Arcane did a brilliant job of subverting expectations in a way that was organic and almost inevitable because, while unexpected, given the characters and the world, the choices and the results could not have been otherwise. Basically, subverting expectations done well: unexpected but inevitable (natural, organic, makes sense and is in line with pre-established story elements)
The only critique I have of your take on the subversion in arcane is that it was really only a major subversion for people who hadn't played League. Players know Vi and Jinx were against each other. What caused the rivalry? That we didn't know when they came out but there were some hints if you knew where to look. As soon as I saw Vi and Jinx as kids I thought "origin story" not "new adventure with band of misfits." Definitely subversive to newcomers though. Great vid.
my favorite thing about arcane is that despite me knowing the lore, the twist was still insanely well done. they did an excellent job of mapping the story in a way that was still unpredictable despite knowing the general end point
1:19 This isn't an example of a good subversion of expectations. I didn't need Rey to be related to a previous character or a clone to be interested in that story. Her parents could have and should have been original characters. The problem is that the subversion does away with any potential for an interesting story. It is in fact the opposite of a story. It isn't the job of a writer director to essentially insult their audience over there fan theories. It's their job to tell a good story. Imagine if Rey's parents were new Jedi characters Luke was training who turned to the dark side and assisted in the corruption of Ben Solo. Imagine if Luke had to kill her parents with kylo Ren revealing that to Rey at the end of The Last Jedi. Perhaps as a final act of good Ben could have sent her into hiding. Maybe they could have had it to where he became close to her during their training. This would also be a payoff for why we see Kylo Ren killing one of his Knights of Ren in The Force Awakens flashback. Perhaps he could have used a mind trick to modify her memory for extra security. This could have also been why Luke was almost shocked when he sees her at the end of The Force Awakens. Believing that she had been killed the night Ben destroyed the temple. And Luke having given Ray some training previously would have helped smooth out the reason she was already proficient in the force. And this could have also offered some conflict between Rey and Luke going forward and provided the backbone for an actual danger of her going to the dark side. It would have been especially interesting if all Kylo Ren had revealed to Ray at the end of The Last Jedi is the fact Luke killed her parents. And Luke sensing her conflict over this could have withheld the full context from her until after her training and after he steers her away from the dark side. Luke could have given Rey the opportunity to kill him as a final test and she wasn't able to go through with it and so afterwards he reveals what actually happened. You know? Something like a story that pays off plot points that had been previously set up as opposed to nevermind. It all meant nothing but we had you going didn't we? And I'm not saying my proposal was the only thing they could have done to make it interesting. Any writer worth their salt could have told a compelling story without resorting to previous lore or cheap tricks. Either way this subversion is just as trash as the rest of the movie.
Rey’s parents being nobodies was a great direction for her character, and it did build off what was built up. She spent all of 7 and the beginning of 8 hoping for someone to give her validation. She wouldn’t leave Jaku because she couldn’t accept that her parents, and by extension anyone else, didn’t care about her. Then she latched on to Solo to fill the void, and then she wanted Luke to give tell her what her purpose was. When things don’t work out with Luke, she latches onto Kylo. The easiest thing for her to hear would be that she/her parents mattered in the story. Her accepting that they didn’t care about her means that she has to find her own self worth and create her own role in the story. This is also what makes her confrontation with Kylo so much more compelling. He offers her the easy way out and a place to belong, but it’s not the best thing for her.
I think there were plenty of interesting stories that could have arisen from Rey being the child of nobodies. Like Master Samwise says, it suggests that Rey is unburdened by any legacy or heritage, that she is free to forge her own path. For a minute there I thought she and Kylo would team up, and really go in an entirely new direction; Kylo throwing off the burden of the Skywalker legacy (hero and villain, fate of the galaxy etc.) and Rey throwing off the need to be defined or placed. I thought she would make a deal to save her friends, and bring order to the galaxy in a new way. That seemed to be what everything in TLJ was building up to, with Kylo saying kill the past or let the past die or whatever. I thought that was going to be a powerful mantra going forward. But that's all a bit too much brainpower for the creative folks down at Disney.
The problem I have with the subversion of Rey's origin in TLJ is that it still results in a highly dissatisfactory and jarring portrayal of the theme it's going for. If Rey's not a "chosen one", then she becomes even less relatable to the audience, because she has demonstrated power and prowess in the Force surpassing that of the actual chosen one from earlier in the franchise - the message can't be "Rey isn't special and regular people can have the Force too" if the entirety of the rest of the story is reinforcing that she is clearly special in every way, and the only other character who is close to being as special as her (Kylo) is descended from a Skywalker. There were two parts of the question around Rey: who are her parents, and how is she so powerful? People assumed answering the first was the same as answering the second, which isn't necessarily true. But still, if the answer to "who are her parents" is "well, her parents don't matter", that still leaves a giant question mark over "how is she so powerful?" Instead of empowering people to feel like they can also be Rey, it pulls the audience out of the story and makes them wonder, "well so she's special just by sheer chance?" That may ring true to real life where there is something to be said for natural talent, but it makes for a deeply unsatisfying story.
speaking about subverting expectations, just watch Succession if you haven't so, there is a masterclass case of subverting expectations meanwhile respects the audiences' memory.
I liked the idea that Rey was born of nobodies and that the Force is more of a gray thing. The most compelling scenes was with Kylo Ren knowing this, wanting to go in another direction and offering Rey to join him in seeking that new way. It would have been cool if she did an so much more intriguing to see where it would lead. Arcane's third episode really made me fall in love with the series, because of everything you talked about. I really love Andor not because it's subverting things but showing us things in the SW universe we really weren't aware of, like the sacrifices it took to get the rebel movement going and what people had to do to get an alliance built. It was very gray.
If it was instead Kylo who attacked Luke while Luke was sleeping due to building arrogance and cavalier attitude towards the dark side of the force and snoke's corruption.. We would have been totally on board with Luke wanting to run away like a failure. It would have also made Kylo's wavering redemption arc more potent since he could be seen as feeling he burnt the bridge and couldn't be redeemed anyway, so doubling down is the only way.
Yeah or if Kylo had actually destroyed the temple and murdered students and Luke felt personally responsible for what happened, not only to them but to Ben too, not having the foresight to see, not seeing the signs or being able to guide him to the light and protect him from Snoke so he felt shame and couldn't face Leia or Han. Or even better, "the Knights of Ren" started to hunt him down so he went into exile or he felt he needed to get away and find himself again. Find answers, rethink everything so he left but with the intent that he would one day return and try to help.
I will never get over the complaints of Luke's character in TLJ. Of all the things in the film, the most interesting plot was between Rey, Luke, and Kylo. Y'all haters of Rian's version of Luke need to listen to one of RJ's interviews where he goes into his thought process for how he wrote Luke. You can hear how much he cares about the character and wanted to do what he could to not just do his character justice but add new layers of depth. Star Wars is heavily modeled after Campbell's Hero's journey. What RJ did with Luke is continue Campbell's Hero's journey after they achieve their goal and what you typically do in this regard is to have them lose something in order to build them back up within the framework of your story. RJ literally followed the Campbell formula. George Lucas himself had written and conceptualized some things for his version of an episode 7 and guess what? He does the exact same thing with Luke making him a bitter old hermit with a young ambitious new Jedi who wants to learn from him and he rejects. That's because Lucas is also following Campbell's model as he has been the entire time. The reason y'all hate RJ's version of Luke so much is because of JJ Abrams. TFA is the real reason the sequel trilogy failed because it failed to establish this new world properly, instead opting for weaponizing nostalgia. JJ's obsession with mystery boxes failed this trilogy because he never has any answers for them. So he made Luke a mystery plot MacGuffin instead of actually using and establishing Luke's character and character arc. In what way is it the sequel's responsibility to establish plot details that were set up in the first film? That's bad filmmaking. RJ got the short end of the stick because he made the best film in the trilogy, he cared the most for the characters, he did the most to evolve the franchise, and yet he's hated the most despite TRoS being so unforgivably bad that it's an embarrassment of a film. It's so bad I just don't even consider it canon and never will. In fact because of JJ's poor establishing of Luke's character (in that he DIDN'T) Rian HAD to make Luke's character the way he did and in that interview I referenced he goes through the process of trying NOT to make an out of character Luke but within reason. He's missing throughout the entire first film which has some pretty important things happening and he had to explain why Luke didn't help because that would be out of character. So he goes through explanations. He says he can't have been capture because he should still be powerful enough to be dangerous. He'd have to be disconnected from the force otherwise he would have felt Han's death and the destruction of several planets, and the rising of the dark side and he would have gone into action. He has to be there isolated by choice and he has to be convinced that what he's doing is the right thing. Yet you think he intentionally ruined Luke's character when he was limited by JJ's failure to even establish his character or character arc. Every single one of you people who hate on Luke's character arc in TLJ always say the same things yet conveniently ignore established lore. When Luke tosses his lightsaber, y'all hated on it like Luke would never.... Excuse me but what was the last thing you saw Luke do with a lightsaber? When he decides to be passive and put down his weapon, he tosses it like it's garbage. The idea that a lightsaber should be respected by Jedi is severely out of character for the Jedi. For one they are simply tools and tools of defense. While a lightsaber may be unique to each Jedi they are not meant to be worshipped or something. Luke has always never really given a shit about his lightsabers. Remember how he lost Anakin's lightsaber in Ep8 and no one said shit about it? Then he shows up with a brand new saber he constructed himself and at the end, tosses it like scrap. You say that's out of character for Luke? Lol. Well your wrong. He never gave a shit about that lightsaber. And he doesn't want to fight. He put down his weapon as a Jedi should. The next complaint is what happens between him and his nephew. And again y'all always say the same thing. Luke is the guy who saw the good in Vader and turned him so he would never even think about hurting his nephew.... Guys... y'all know damn well what it took for Luke to achieve that. Like I know y'all know the ending of ep 6. Like right before Luke saves his father he literally cut him to pieces in a furious rage and nearly killed him and was literally on the cusp of turning to the dark side. Hamill is literally making the same face during the Ben scene as he did when he cut Vader down. Luke would never hurt his family member? The entirety of the original trilogy is about everyone trying to get Luke to kill his own father and he nearly succeeds. Even in the context of RJ's script he still only for a split second reacted tohis vision and you say it's out of character for Luke to defend his loved ones? Luke literally says it during the flashback. He said he saw the destruction of everything and everyone he loved at the hands of his nephew. And what does Luke do when you threaten his friends and family? Can you reference the original trilogy for me? That's right, every time his loved ones are threatened he response with emotional rage and immediately comes to their defense without thinking. Luke losing his shit for a split second is totally normal. Why do you guys think Luke should be a flawless character? Flawless characters are boring. What RJ did with his core cast of characters was challenge them in the most difficult way possible. You think Poe was mischaracterized? Lol. Okay tell me what his characterization is in TFA? He's simply described as the best pilot in the resistance. He's brave and brash. and that's it. We see him outside his cockpit only a few times and otherwise he's piloting an X-Wing. So with his only character trait being "the best pilot" RJ takes away his X-Wing to force more characterization from him,\. Yeah he's a good pilot but is he a good leader? RJ's simply adds much needed depth to his character. Rey is characterized by her mysterious parentage. If that's the most important thing about her character then the most difficult thing for her to deal with is being a nobody in this story. It forces her to be her own character. Finn didn't seem to exist separate from Rey in TFA. He had a weird obsession with her. But he also doesn't have an arc in TFA. Yes a common theme in TFA is that no character has an actual character arc except Kylo. Finn doesn't end up fighting for the Resistance because he cares about their cause. He only joined with them to save Rey. So RJ had to give him a reason to fight and since he was tied by the hip to Rey, RJ separates them for the entire film. Luke is most known for turning Vader back from the dark side. The most difficult thing for Luke to deal with is inadvertently creating another Vader within his family. Kylo is meant to invoke Vader but has a temper. So RJ gets rid of the helmet because letting Adam Driver emote in his scenes is far better than covering up his face and does what Vader couldn't and supplants his master which was the most interesting thing to do with Kylo because he was literally just another Vader and we need something different. These are not easy writing decisions to make. These are decisions made by someone who cares about the characters they are writing. They are challenging to a writer and he did more than a commendable job, he actually made it work cohesively and on top of that threaded each side plot into the main narrative where all plots intersect at the end in a natural way. A feat in and of itself. None of the other films in the sequel trilogy are as narratively tight and engaging as RJ's TLJ. Not all of it works. It's not a perfect film but for the sequel trilogy, it's the most well made one of the three. It's the only one that tells a complete story. Sorry for the long post. If you got this far, thanks for coming to my TED talk
I feel that like most people, you misread Last Jedi. Remember that scene in Return of the Jedi when Palpatine was trying to goad Luke on and Luke lost his composure and was just kind of wailing on Vader until Luke realized what he was doing? Remember how he responded to that? He tossed his lightsaber away and refused to keep fighting. And in Empire Strikes back, when Luke goes into the cave during his jedi training and sees a vision of himself becoming Darth Vader, what does he do? He balks, horrified, and soon abandons his training. So then, how is it "so out of character to the point of character assassination" that when he tried to revive the jedi order and saw the pattern of it falling to the dark side threaten repeating, he pulled away (like he's verifiably done before)? And no, he did not just label his nephew as irredeemable and try to kill him on a whim, he only lit the lightsaber in a moment of pure reflexive indistinct- which he immediately regretted before Ben had even noticed. Sure, it was a weak motive for such a plot-critical moment and Luke shouldn't have had such a quick trigger finger for someone wanting to bring jedi back to their mystical spiritualism roots as opposed to the paramilitary they were in the prequels, but that wasn't your criticism. If you're going to criticize the film, make valid criticisms.
Arcane episode 3 was one instance of me remembering sincerely dropping my jaw for a long time. *Vi is facing Deckard, Milo is still working on Vander's shackles and Claggor is working on the wall* "Come on Powder, I know your bomb can work! " *Vi safely holds Deckard at bay, Milo frees Vander and Claggor opens the way out* "Wait, what? It's working?... Wait a second, then what about the bomb and-?" *THAT happens* "😱😱😱😱😱" Seriously it was glorious.
What really impressed me about the writing in Arcane was how they constantly had a "happy ending" juuuuuust out of reach. It was there, all the time, through the entire show. Which is why it surprised me so much when they didn't go for it. It had such a good build up for both a "good" and "bad" ending
The twist that Rey's parents is not only a good twist for the statement it makes about who can be Jedi, but it also fits in fantastically in the scene itself. Rey is just like Kylo, looking for a place to belong. In saying this, followed by his offer to take his hand in joining him, is providing both him and her a purpose outside of this war. And for a moment, she almost takes it. I'm not saying that twist where she joins him would fix the movie but God would it have been better than what we got
Like any tool, it's _how_ you use it, not just _using_ it. With a hammer, you can knock in a nail to hold two pieces of wood together, or you can just knock nails in randomly because you think the sound is impressive.
I have never (and probably will never) played League of Legends, so I had no idea what I was getting into with Arcane. I didn’t know the characters, world, or any of the lore. So with the first few episodes, I was expecting the plot of plucky street rat children going what they could to survive of some shit. I was absolutely not expecting what happened. Phenomenal.
Well the thing is, in the previous movie JJ set it up that Luke abandoned everyone and ran away from the new empire. Ryan just gave us the Luke, JJ created and hinted at in the first movie
i like Luke's subversion, but there was one way to make it believable and still connect to ROTJ. In that movie, we see he overcomes the dark side and it going on to become a great Jedi. What if instead of Luke pulling out his llightsaber to kill Ben, its Ben who pulls the lightsaber on Luke. Make it so that once Luke see's Ben's darkness, Ben senses Luke, and upon being discovered to being turn to the dark side, attacks out of Anger. Then after Luke comes to, the Jedi school is destroyed and his students are killed. This way you have Luke instead of being the one to set Ben on his path is merely a bystander and a victim of Kylo Ren. This makes his hopeless view of the world understandable, because instead of causing events, he is broken by them not because of anything he did or didn't do, but instead he has become hopeless believing that there is no point to training Rey. This makes his redemption make more sense as he is not overcoming his guilt, but rather his hopelessness. It also does one more thing of keeping Luke innocent and pure, like most Jedi aught to be.
When Powder threw that toy with the Hexstone or whatever it's called into the Warehouse I was like: "Oh man I wonder how they pull that of without killing like half the group..."
most of Arcane's story was already in the game, but a lot if it was made in-depth or rewritten to make it more connected. in the game lore, Jinx/Powder was said to go crazy after accidental explosion that killed her whole family (Vi wasnt her sister in-game, just rivals). there was a demon of fear that would torment certain characters by saying specific lines. for Jinx, the demon would say "youre a jinx!" and "all your fault!" so i think the people who would fully enjoy this would be those whove never played the game, because they wouldnt be spoiled of anything like how Jinx and Vi came to be.
I got my dad (a classic film buff) to watch Arcane and he commented on how surprised he was by how dark it was after it set out in the beginning of act 1 to be a standard action film like you describe, similar in tone to avatar
One of the most frustrating things about The Last Jedi’s subversions is how Rian Johnson is so clearly thrusting his ego in our faces from start to finish, constantly using his nonsensical twists to say “Ta-da! Look at what an absolute genius I am!”
Some good examples of subverted expectations can be found in the first few seasons Game of Thrones. The Season one ending with the execution of Ned Stark (mirroring the beginning of the whole show where he himself has to execute someone) being a major character the whole time is a huge twist nobody saw coming. Then again in the red wedding. You see Robb Stark and his mother making progress with the war effort only for them to be betrayed at his own wedding. John Snow getting killed in the season finale was the peak of GOT because we all had to wait to see what would happen next. Then the show got stupid with its writing cause they ran out of books.
I think the only people who was able to see the twist in e3 coming were people who knew the league lore and knew that Jinx was the cause of some kind of distaster when she was young and even then people who knew it because of that (like me) THE SHOW WAS STILL AMAZING
Honestly, TLJ was two movies in a trenchcoat, one of which (the jedi plot) had promise and the other (ship chase) was irredeemable hot garbage. I give the jedi plot so much credit for being the one and only time in Star War the "Join me" trope actually seemed tempting! "I am now defacto the ruler of the dominant military power on the eve of a new era. Join me and lets write laws and govern and shit. What do you want the galaxy to be like? We can build that!" It falls apart because they are both so attached the embers of this rebellion that neither can just let it go. For Kylo it's "who cares about one ship of rebels escaping?" For Rey it's "Why is rebelling inherently good? The First Order is ripe for change and you can steer that change." Also I really loved the emotional beats of the "But not to me." monologue. Luke needs exactly one fix. He needs a quick montage of failure. He needs a history of essentially school shootings at his academy for teenagers with magic powers, so that when he see's Kylo start down that direction he goes "Not again. Never again." Luke's story can easily ask the question "Is the warrior equipped to be a teacher?" Let us also remember that in the OT, every time Luke has tapped into the dark side it has worked out for him. *That* is what makes the dark side dangerous. It whispers, "Hey, here's just a little power boost you can sip on in an emergency. It's ok. You can handle it. You've always handled it so far."
Arcane subversion is so great because it bombs the meta expectations based on watching hundreds of shows. SW subversion is bad because it twists the internal logic of the story in most awkward and crude way possible.
The thing is Star Wars could have subverted our expectations by switching the roles of the heroes and villains. Imagine the fragile new republic trying to maintain peace while the first order is this small deadly force that unleashes smaller but devastating attacks and disappears only to do it again and again. Luke’s Jedi are just a a dozen and they’re still trying to figure out what their role is. It could have been a really different and exciting environment for a trilogy. Instead we just got Empire vs rebels again.
You explained everything perfectly, with one exception; the changes made to Star Wars were done because Kennedy actually hates the franchise and everything about it but also knows it will still make money no matter what she twists it into. Luke's character assassination was not only deliberate it was done specifically to the fans the finger.
The extended universe of the books did not make Luke a bitter old man. Rian Johnson did not pull from that for Last Jedi. EU fans were just as unhappy as movie only fans.
Arcane: after the expectation was subverted, it still makes sense from a character and story perspective. The Last Jedi: after the expectation was subverted, but you feel it was cheap because it spits in your investment in the story and the characters. Nevermind comparisons to the original trilogy. It spat on people who were invested in The Force Awakens.
I disagree that the "they were nobody" is good subversion. And a reason she should have had someone was her talent in the force. We've seen that the force does flow strong through bloodlines. since she didn't have a master, she NEEDED to have some direct connection to the force or she just didn't make sense. (also the bit about anakin's saber calling to her. that didn't make sense unless she was related in some way to the main cast) Edit: I will say it COULD have been a good subversion if it hadn't been heavily implied in the earlier movie.
I told my friends it’d be more interesting if she was a Palpatine. I would’ve made her staff come from Sith Alchemy and been one of the Emperor’s relics that he had collected. I would’ve had Kylo destroy her lightsaber forcing her to defend herself with the staff and both be shocked the lightsaber couldn’t cut through. Then have her beat him with the staff since she’s been using it her whole life. It would’ve ended the first installment with a mystery. Part 2 have Luke casually touch the staff and read its origins. Luke wouldn’t tell her what he saw but would be fearful she could be drawn to the dark side so he puts her through a series of tests.
Great video. Let me nitpick. 2:49 It would be one thing if the fans created this expectation themselves but the expectations were set by the film maker in the Force Awakens. I see how challenging the importance of bloodlines could be done right however it feels like that never took place in these movies. Ray never dealt with the idea that her parents could have been “somebodies” or “nobodies”. We also never got to see the fallout from this revelation. This subversion felt more like a “made you look” kinda thing.
I heard from a forum that the reason why Disney made Luke into something so disappointing is because they want to make way to a new more marketable character.
the subversion needs to be believable and not out of no where. For most of arcane your thinking Vi is doing a great Job as your caught up with the action like the character ignoring all the collateral damage she is causing as she is simplify a complex grey problem into simple black and white. Which finally backfires on her in the final episode. Like if GoT had a random guy kill the night king it would make sense as all the prophieces and what not are non sense and everyone was just using them as an excuse to commit terrible deeds like happens in life.
Huh, I never really thought Arcane had that subversion in the third episode because I already knew Jinx and Vi from LoL and in-game Jinx is practically Harley Quinn lmaoo
The problem of The Last Jedi is that it subverts expectetions inspired by hatred and disrespect towards fans and the material. Instead, Arcane subverts expectations by trying to present the most cool plot twist a writer can imagine. Basically a cool plot twist comes from asking yourself "how can I make audiences to learn that everything they knew was wrong in the most cool possible way?" That means you need to understand what is cool for your audience. The cool factor was replaced by the hatred factor. How to make the most cool things dull and dislikable. This is how the plot twist now is that hatred inspired writers write their heroes like mediocre villains. Check every hero they praise and you will see.
Although the the point is really good, I know I couldn t really enjoy the "subvertion" of arcane for a simple reason : I m a league of legend fan. For me, this was an origin story for characters I already loved, and of witch we knew very little about their youth. From the beginning, I already knew things were supposed to go wrong somehow, so for me, I was almost more suprised to see their happy time together than seeing things blow up (although it is still a shocking moment). Although Arcane is an incredible show, it is interesting how it is an entirely different experience depending on weither you already knew the franchise or not. One thing that helped a lot is that, as I said, there was a lot of stuff that wasn t explained about that part of the character's life, so it left a lot of free room for the writter to make something good (instead of just struggling to fit the lore)
Tbh, I thought Po was very on brand for Last Jedi. Admiral what's her face (can't even be bothered to remember her name) had absolutely no reason to withhold her plan from Po. Her reasoning was literally, "I am strong female leader and I don't answer to no man." She literally just needed to say, "Chill dude. We're going to an abandoned rebel base. They won't even know." I don't think Po was poorly written at all. In fact, I think he was the only decently well written character in that whole movie.
I can't agree with Rey's parents being an example of "good subversion of expectations". It could have been, but the problem is the setup doesn't lend itself to that being a satisfying reversal of expectations. The Disney Star War trilogy is deeply flawed from the fact that the story for all 3 movies was not drafted first before filming each one. Each one had a different director (originally Colin Trevorrow was going to direct the third movie before people revolted from how bad Jurassic World was) and each director was given free reign over the story direction (with the caveat that Kathleen Kennedy had final say). This led to JJ Abrams setting up Rey's parentage with his classic "mystery box" approach to filmmaking as a major plot point. Rey refused to leave Jaku because she was waiting for her parents to return. She wasn't a baby in a crib when she was left on the planet either, she should have been old enough to know who her parents looked like. JJ never set them up as a mystery *to her* it was a mystery *to us* who they were and why they left her on the planet and why Rey was so certain they'd return some day. There have been much complaints about how JJ played things too safe with Force Awakens and how it was essentially just A New Hope : Again and I think Rian Johnson heard those complaints and massively over-corrected. Where JJ treated the original Star Wars trilogy as almost sacred gospel that could not be altered, Rian treated the material as a bag of cliché tropes just looking to be poked fun at. This led to Rian completely changing the context of the mystery JJ setup in Force Awakens all for the sake of a subversion that wasn't satisfying. Sure, people are tired of everybody in the Star Wars universe being related to one another. But the answer to that wasn't for Kylo, who for some reason knows Rey's true parents, to tell Rey who her own parents were as if she didn't know. The mystery was why Rey was so sure they'd come for her on Jaku. Saying her parents were some junkers who ditched her doesn't satisfy that mystery. I mean I guess you could say Rey was just in denial (for her entire adolescent and early adult life) but if that was the case, she gets over this world shattering revelation pretty much immediately after Kylo says, "you know it to be true" or whatever version of that he says, and we move on. Thus trivializing and wasting the audiences time for why Rey bothered to spend so much time on a desert planet scavenging junk despite being fully capable of leaving whenever she wanted to. If Rian wanted to keep the subversion here but make it fit within the context JJ setup, Kylo needed to explain why they never returned to Jaku despite Rey being so certain they would. Here Kylo could have said her parents were First Order traitors who fled to the Galactic Republic and that the First Order captured them before they could fully get away and killed them. Then we could have a flashback of her parents telling child Rey that they would return for her once they contacted General Organa. This not only would be a subversion of expectations that her parents aren't some past important characters of the Star Wars universe but also connect the first movie with the third movie (if we still want to use the awful Palpatine stuff). We'd understand why Rey was so certain they'd come for her as well as why she seemed to fantasize about being a member of the resistance. Because she imagined her parents meeting the current leader of said resistance, General Organa, and coming to pick her up so she can join the fight against the First Order, who her parents defected from (this could even tie nicely into Finn's story as it would indicate Finn isn't the first First Order soldier to break free of his brainwashing and defect). A subversion needs to serve a satisfying purpose. In 6th sense, M Night sets up little hints that Bruce Willis is dead all throughout the movie. When the twist happens it makes it all the more satisfying for people who suddenly could connect all the dots throughout the movie. Or a subversion can serve as a comedic twist. Rian clearly tried to go that avenue with Luke chucking the light saber, but the problem is Luke had never acted that way before. It was out of character for him to do that and also once again wasted the audiences time for the first movie which was all about "finding Luke". A better example of a subversion for comedic effect done right would be the final scene of Marvel's Avengers. The shawarma scene. Marvel had set this expectation in each of their movies up to that point to expect some major hint toward their next movie. Instead, we got the avengers awkwardly eating shawarma at a small restaurant in New York.
Rey being the child of “nobody” WOULD have been a good subversion if she EARNED her skills, expertise and power through her own effort and ingenuity. It would have been a good subversion if the theme is further demonstrated by other “children of nobody” demonstrating the same powers in the force when they too train diligently and become in tune with the force. Instead, in TLJ the subversion is completely meaningless. She could’ve been the child of a rock having sex with a goat, that would also be “subversive”. Furthermore ROS undoes the subversion.
A good subversion answers the questions of the audience in an unexpected but meaningful way. Why is Rey so powerful? - oh, that’s why. I hadn’t thought of that! And not Why is Rey so powerful? - *crickets*
With luke's character development it feels like they are parroting the yoda subversion. They are an active and powerful jedi, protecting and maintaining the order. Later chronologically in universe they are a grumpy washed out hasbin. The reason for their change is a member of their order becoming evil after they sense darkness in them. A person who damages the order with the help of a powerful sith and wears a black outfit with a helmet that hides their face. The issue, isn't with the subversion itself. The important difference in their reasoning is that in both cases there were 2 "right" answers to dealing with the evil, give a personal touch to prevent it being realised or eliminate it. The only "wrong" answer was to do neither. The difference is that in Luke's case they do the "right" thing and fail so they arguably still deserve their position and in yoda's case they do the wrong thing from the start so they can make the case that they are not the person to restart the order. It doesn't help that luke's motivation for not doing a thing is that they already tried to do it when it wasn't the obvious thing to do...
Your example of "good subversions" matches what I personally think would have been a fantastic and compelling theme for a SEPARATE SW trilogy by Johnson. The ideas were good, but they were slapped roughshod in the middle of a trilogy they did not belong in. Rey being nobody WOULD be fine... if she wasn't CONSISTENTLY showcasing talents and powers that she SHOULD NOT HAVE. People make comparisons to Anakin and Luke... but both of them are fuckups. Consistently. Despite their natural gifts. Anakin is a natural pilot and mechanically gifted (the latter being there EXCLUSIVELY so the droids could make a cameo, and actually detrimental to the character for it) He spends three movies screwing up so bad that he becomes the villain. Luke can also fly well... but spends movie 1 being constantly rescued by more competent characters, movie 2 screwing up and abandoning his training... and the good guys lose, then movie 3 FINALLY being SOMEWHAT competent... but ultimately STILL not winning the day by his own merits (instead through his display of compassion. Bit ham handed, LOTR did it better, but still a good end!) HONESTLY compare that to Rey. She can immediately fight better than a storm trooper (and a Sith, albeit "he was injured") fly better than Han, fix shit better than Chewie and generally saves the day pretty much personally every time. But she's a nobody.
2:24 I understand the point you're making but I think its ultimately faulty because of two main pieces of context, Rians choice to make Reys parents "nobody" really doesnt work in the context of the trilogy: 1) People werent theorizing en masse about Reys parentage for no reason or because we think being a jedi is about bloodlines as you later imply - its because Reys parentage was established as an important plot point in The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams had Rey give immense weight to her parents which cues the audience to believe that plot element will have weight for us, which is what spurred people to start theorizing - We know this is true because at the time, everyone was excited for Finn to be a jedi yet hardly anyone (save for a handful) was spouting theories like "Finn is the son of Mace Windu!" or whatever. The reveal of Reys parents in TLJ was lackluster for most specifically because we were made to believe itd be important, otherwise most would have assumed she was a random character to begin with. Its more a case of set up with no payoff than it is a case of smart subversion. 2) Subversion in literature is usually meant to change or broaden the audiences expectations and perspective on a given situation - but Rey not having special parents doesnt do that in the slightest in the cotext of Star Wars and so the subversion feels pointless. Anakin was the child of a literal slave from bumfucnowhere, Han Solos parents are never even discussed, Obi Wan Kenobi has no lineage to speak of, nor Palpatine, Yoda, or Ahsoka. In the context of Star Wars, lineage has never been a requirement to be a Hero or Force User, to the contrary, the jedi make it a point to separate children from their lineage - the only characters with a "special lineage" are the twins Luke and Leia, they are outliers in the context of Star Wars. So, again, there was nothing being subverted as it is already well established and known that most Star Wars heros, villains, force users, etc dont fall back on a special lineage - thats not really a troupe to be associated with Star Wars - leaving what could be a smart subversion in another story feeling entirely empty and pointless in Star Wars. For these two reasons, Rians choice to make Reys parents no one is less of a riské artistic subversion and more of a spite to The Force Awakens and to the fans who believed that the attention they paid to that film's storytelling would actually be rewarded in subsequent films.
The problem I have with RJ’s idea of Rey’s parents being nobodies is that he was trying to make a point that had already been well established in the Star Wars films, shows, books, and comics. It was already known that greatness and use of the Force could come from anyone and from anywhere. This isn’t profound. Rian just found a way to express common knowledge in the weakest and unnecessary way possible. The best thing Rian did, subversion wise, is killing Snoke and elevating Kylo Ren. Now THAT is good Star Wars subversion. 👍🏼
Thor Skywalker said Rey parents were probably nobodies and that it made sense. Rian subversion shows he was more interested in fan theories than the actual ep7. Because ep7 made Rey move on to find Luke. And then Rian stats the movie with her still looking for a parents.
Arcane set out to tell a story and subverted expectations by its mechanics and how they wanted to tell their story. TLJ was made to subvert expectations rather than be a great story.
Excellent video and great points, hopefully my own story will be more in the Arcane category. To answer your question; Arcane did NOT subvert my expectations. That's because I already knew these characters from their league of legends lore, and the history of Zhaun Vs Piltover, so in my case I knew going into the show that Jinx is a chaotic evil terrorist, I knew that Caitlyn is the sheriff of piltover and I knew about her history with Vi and how Vi and Jinx are arch rivals, as well as knowing that the Zhaun piltover war was inevitable, so watching the show was simply a ticking clock to the inevitable disaster moving closer and closer. My biggest surprise was actually seeing Viktor as one of the good guys, but there is still a lingering sense if dread to every scene he us in, as his fate and transformation into the Viktor we know and love moves closer and closer.
With the Rey's parents are nobodies, I didn’t actually believe it. A villain said it when he was trying to manipulate Rey... I thought it was a setup for a better subversion. But also none of the other options were satisfying. They either didn't really mean anything or felt contrived. So if Reys parents were nobodies and the reveal had setup I would have been happier.
I'd say the biggest rule for me is once you have subverted an expectation, what have you put in its place. Youre tearing down childhood memories and idols. You better give me something awesome to replace it with. I feel like to many writers seem to think the act of making something different is that something awesome. I'd ague that newer is always better is not an acceptable trade off. You take away my fine wine or well made steak and give me a hot dog and grape juice. Like yeah sure I'll watch/eat the new, but I'm not going to cheer your decisions and come back to your BBQ/franchise again.
TLJ was great. Not just because it's "subversive of expectations." but because it genuinely follows explores and expands on the lore in a good way. It's the best of the sequels. Wanna see what happens when they try to cater to TLJ haters we get The Rise of Skywalker which was largely warmed up garbage.
Ngl, I didn’t think the Ray‘s Parents Twist was well-executed either. It was so on-the-nose that it felt like Johnson was tapping a giant finger on the fourth wall, although in fairness this may have been caused by the fact that these films constantly tap the fourth wall in this way. I agree that it also does do those positive things you mention in some way, but it feels sloppy.
Avoiding why Rey being so powerful doesn't make sense since others explain it so well. Luke in LTJ was so disappointing because it was so out of character. He sense the dark side in Kaylo Ren so he is going to kill him?! That just completely out of character. Now if we change that to Luke sensing the dark side in Ben Solo and failing to convince him to follow the Jedi teaching would make sense. Think of Luke feeling the weight of Obi-Wan and Yoda judgement in his mind as a failure to bring back the Jedi order from his own nephew?! Now that would of been more powerful. But what we got made no sense.
Amazing video friend. One thing I don't get is that Last Jedi gets praised for the "parent subversion" for showing how anyone can be force sensitive but wasn't this already the case in Star Wars? Special bloodlines did exist but most Jedi and Sith were not from special bloodlines. Obi Wan, Mace Windy, Qui Gon, Asajj Ventress, Dooku, etc all were average people with no special bloodlines. The Lucas movies and shows already established this fact.
You could have just compared Stat Wars media for subversion because KOTOR 2 did subversion well. Subversion of expectation done right is meant to have the audience asking questions about principles. Spiteful subversion is designed to destroy what is loved about a franchise.
I rather doubt Rian johnson did it to surprise fans. The entire movie is basically there to destroy everything Abrams set up. It's pretty much Rian going "You suck. Mystery boxes suck. Here's how you do a real movie." Just look at everything he does to destroy everything that could possibly be used to go somewhere. His disdain of Abrams just shows everywhere. Mind you, I do think he had some good ideas. I like the idea of having a bomber sequence. It builds on how Lucas used WW2 airplane movies as the basis for space combat in the original Star Wars. I like Finn getting past his puppy dog love of Rey, finding a person of his own, and becoming a real hero rather than a wannabe white knight. I do think we need fewer connections to the Skywalkers and so on. But the execution... the execution was horrible. For so much of the film. Rey's parents is one of those poor executions. This was the second act, and this reveal has no bite, does nothing to advance the story. Nobody really was invested in her search for her parents' identities. Even Rey wasn't clinging on to the idea that her parents mattered. There's no reason for her to be disappointed that her parents aren't Jedi or something. All it did was toss out a mystery box, without accomplishing anything. For the reveal of her parents being nobodies, Rey being crushed by that, you first need to establish that Rey is invested in that them being big shots, and in a way that makes us want it to be true for her. All things the first movie didn't do. It just dropped a mystery box, said Rey wanted to find her parents, and left it at that, so that could maybe be used to advance the plot in the future, but without any thought put into it. Rian being disdainful of Abrams is understandable, from that angle. But that brings us to the second movie. Rian's job was to progress the story, to do things that matter. Like, say, if Rey had been the daughter or granddaughter of Palpatine, and therefore the First Order venerates her. Couple that with some flaws, some weaknesses, and she could potentially collapse into despair or rage and end the movie sitting on the throne of the First Order. Something that would do more to make the audience want to see that third movie. Which is what Rian was hired for, to progress the story based on what the first act set up, and make us anticipate that third act. But Rian wasn't interested in doing his job. All he cared about was showing his disdain for Abrams's writing. But proper subversion needs groundwork laid first, and this wasn't done by either the first or second movie. And so we get just another mostly pointless bit, because Abrams set this up, and Rian could not resist the urge to toss it in the garbage. He was too busy feeling smug and superior to do his job.
There's just a complete lack of understanding of the conventions of sci-fi in Rian Johnson's TLJ. He's a dab hand at quirky indie detective stories, but that's the genre he knows inside out. He had no idea how to deliver the mix of sci-fi and space opera, and none of the imagination required to deliver a powerful Jedi Master, so he just went for a do-nothing stagnant wreck of a man instead. How much of that was at the producer's insistence might be a good question.
Disney should have doubled down on subversiveness instead of going into full on damage control mode. I mean I hated what they've done with SW, but at least they would have shown a tiny bit of integrity.
I really really liked that Rey was a nobody from a desert planet. After all, isn't that what makes Anakin interesting ? This is why in almost every story the protagonist is an orphan : it conveys that anyone and everyone has huge potential... because a story is intended for everyone. I didn't even mind that much that "somehow Palpatine returned", even if it was lame as there is literally an infinite number of possible interesting villains. Why ... ! ... anyway I was really disappointed when they had to make her his daughter: it is just a cheap ripoff of Luke being Vader's son.
I have no problem with Luke being bitter. He was an idealist that got his idealism verified in his father. What happens when he keeps going and idealism doesn't pay off? Bitterness. Granted, the set up was poor. It would be very hard to write a story where Luke isn't hobbled in some way. Otherwise he would be the protagonist again.
My only issue is with your praising of Arcane to take risks when it came to killing characters and subverting expectations by making everything that could go wrong, go wrong. It was all based off of previous lore that had been established through LoL. There was only one way it was ever going to go... it literally had no option of being the happy-go-lucky show, where the characters would learn and grow from their mistakes. If anything, like someone else in the comments stated, the first three episodes of Arcane were the true subversion of expectations; Vi and Powder getting along and living a happy life with their adoptive father was never the expectation.
Theories of where Ray come from were created by her uncanny ability to use force, that was demonstrated in the first film. Natural explanation for this wouldv'e been that she was from a lineage of force users. Subverting this expectation leaves the question open and since movie provide no answer for it, the other prominent explanation comes to mind - she'a Mary Sue. So no, I don't agree that it was a good subversion. It could've been, if question of het power level was adressed, but it wasn't.
Watching episode 3 of Arcane, I was literally clapping my hands, going "Oh boy, oh boy! Powder's gonna save the day, and totally wreck Silco's operations, now that she's finally figured out how to make her bombs work properly! This is her moment to shine!" I was fully prepared for an epic, massive explosion that demolished the entire building... I was not prepared for the consequences of that explosion.
Ikr? When everything was going to work I was like "wait if the bomb is useless now then what?" And my jaw dropped unironically for the first time in years
Its what he was saying we all know this kids adventure movies/shows that why we all expected the from you told ending only to get something way better and darker😬 One of my other essay youtubers once sayed:"death and violence against children is one when not the most delicate tool in story telling. but when pulled of corectly it shows that this world makes no exeptions even from the most vulnerable."
I did see it coming, sadly. It was still impactful, but if you pay attention to her methodology while creating the weapons, it's clear that how to make them work is much more important to her than what they will ultimately do. Reckless disregard for the consequences is a hallmark of her character, and seeing her kill all her friends and lose her sister in one fell swoop was telegraphed for those who were paying attention. That did not detract, as I said, from the impact of seeing the entire spectacle play out. One can see the dominos being placed, but watching them fall is still exciting in and of itself.
The biggest point of subverted expectations for me in Arcane was when Jynx used the flare and Vi was running towards her. I was so sure that something was going to stop Vi and that was why Jynx was gonna have issues with her. "You said you'd come and you didn't". But Vi made it to her. They reunited. But then Vi and Jynxs mindsets at the time and inability to communicate wih each other tore them apart again. It was so painful and so real. Its typical story telling when things in the universe just cause problems between characters. But it was so fucking raw for two people to just not be able to get on the same page and come to an understanding with each other.
@@greghannibal What arcane did differently was trust. In almost every situation of "conflict exists because of misunderstandings that would be cleared up if they just talked to each other" Both characters trust each other, or the information can be easily verified. In Arcane the problem wasn't the characters unwillingness to talk to eachother, it was that one was unstable and had severe trust issues, and the other wasn't sure if that unstable person could be trusted. Not to mention the unstable person had a mentor that they did trust telling them not to trust a family member who they had trusted a long time ago. It was such a complex situation but it wasn't contrived because one group simple kept their mouth shut when they shouldn't have.
I have a friend who loves Star Wars and is in film school no less and feels TLJ is "pretty good" based only on the fact it was subversive. I keep arguing that it matters what is being subverted, how, and to what end. The sheer act of subversion alone doesn't make you a creative genius.
It’s not subversion alone, and know from RJ’s interviews that wasn’t what he was going for. Everything follows along pretty naturally from what the former movies built up.
You should probably let people have their own opinions and probably get a life too, instead of worrying how much a person feels about a space wizard movie, that also happens to be a very great movie for many other things than being “subversive” as you guys keep crying on about
@@TheCatLoverLord I mean I am not really sure you get the hypocrisy of your statement. You are jumping on me for arguing an opinion, using the logic I should let people have their own opinions, and then proceeding on to savage my opinion lol. Also, I am not criticizing TLJ strictly speaking, I was making a comment more about writing mechanics in general. Though you can infer I probably don't like it, but if you love it that is awesome. Finally, my friend and I both enjoy the debate, it isn't heated or ugly. And it is like an occasional 3-4-minute conversation while I am riding the bus, so I am not sure I am just wasting my life away on the space wizard movie. So yeah...
I don’t mind the subversion of Rey’s parents, it’s the fact that they acted like Rey had been watching the movies. “Your parents were no bodies! They weren’t even main characters!” “What?? They were my parents, why would I give a shit if they’re galactic celebrities? What a weird thing to say.”
Yeah. "Your parents are never coming back for you, they don't even think about you" would have been fine, a hard truth for Rey to face (and would have implied an answer to the audience's questions). "Your parents have never previously appeared in any LucasArts or Disney canon intellectual property" is a completely meta comment aimed at the audience, not Rey.
I've been saying this for years. That scene was 4th wall breaking. Rian was so eager to smack down fan theories he went ahead and wrote the dialogue as if it's directed right at them. Lmao. Dude's whole thing was to be a troll. Additionally the concept that anyone can be a jedi wasn't new or fresh. It felt so hammy and stupid. Like yeah man I've seen the prequels and saw hundreds of jedi....
I disagree. It's not uncommon for abandoned children to dream about being the child of someone rich and famous. It's like how a lot of children dream about being princesses and stuff
@@Graestra Those dreams of grandeur are indeed visible among some individuals - but Rey's character did not speak to me as though she wanted that easy way out. She had the framework of a character who didn't want to be weak (she sought power), she didn't want to feel lost (she sought guidance). If that kind of dream was a part of her character, then it wasn't noticed by me - I did feel like other characters were trying to make her *think* that she cared about who her parents were. It's not that it would be unrealistic for Rey to have that response, but the problem is that it didn't seem consistent with her personality. (If you see things speaking to her actually wanting that, then I would have to change my perspective in this case :P)
I hated that they acted like Poe was somehow wrong even though had the Dreadnought not been taken down right then and there, the entire fleet would've been decimated during the chase. It was already stupid that the First Order fired on the abandoned base, since it was hastily abandoned, any competent military would instead send ground troops down to scour for any left behind information, instead of just firing on the waiting ships in front of them. We all know the bombers were a horrible choice, but one of the strongest ships in the First Order fleet for like 8 bombers is a pretty good trade. Luke's bastardization was just Rian being as obtuse and changing as many things as he can. A better way to subvert expectations on why Luke ran away? Make Luke believe in Kylo, even knowing he's got darkness in his heart, believing that even with that darkness, much like him and his father, he will face that darkness and grow over it, leaving it behind. Then, Kylo betrays Luke's trust, killing all other students of his new Jedi Order and destroying everything Luke worked for, now, Luke is shaken to his core, he constantly believed in his father and knew he'd return to the Light Side, but now he sees how his belief in people can be misplaced. This would make sense canonically and it would be a much better way to explain his exile, which still sucks overall, but at the very least you can explain it away as his internal conflict, between wanting to believe in his nephew, but not wanting more people to fall into the light and dark struggle.
I felt like they should have made Kylo a loser who can't live up to the legacy of his family. Imagne how frustrated and angry he would become after training with Luke and being unable to achieve the things he felt his heritage had in store for him. It would be easy for him to turn to the Dark Side, or be corrupted by Snoke, in search of an easier road to power. I always figured that's why he worshipped Vader's helmet. But nah, let's just make it all a big misunderstanding. Whoops, I'm a bad guy now.
this more then anything else in the movie (and there is a lot) drives me crazy. the second they jumped out of hyperspace the dreadnought would have destroyed the fleet. poe not only made the right call he saved their lives and the rebellion (resistance, whatever).
also, the way you fix all of this is by revealing that there was no hyperspace tracking and that holdo was a first order spy. then everything makes sense.
I watched Arcane expecting nothing special about it. All I knew is that it was set in LoL's universe (which I never played), to me it was just a way to pass the time. And sure the first three episodes were entertaining enough so I just followed along. Then... Man... The ending of ep.3 left me stunned like no tv-show or movie had done in a very long time... TLJ did not stun me at all, I had even less expectation from it as I came into that new trilogy very cautiously and new the main plotlines, I was disappointed that it was even worse than I think it could be, especially by the way Luke seemed completely ruined. Thanks to you I finally understand why I felt those ways. Thanks.
The problem with calling Rey's parents nobodies, it's a meta line. She didn't care who her parents were in the Force Awakens only that they'd come back. The only reason the parent thing became relevant was people wanted some explanation as to where her force power came from if she didn't really train at all, but can still mind-trick effectively out force-pull Kylo and so much more. Anakin, before EU stuff, was a gifted nobody from Tatooine who still had to train to not overstep his bounds. But we knew how he felt about his family. He worries constantly, asks about them, we see his relationship prior to the abandonment. Rey's parents being nobody does nothing because we don't know anything except that she hoped they come back. Rey being a nobody in context of only until the lightsaber trip scene in Force Awakens is fine. After demonstrating force abilities that are only seen in masters some "lineage" was the only way to explain it, or maybe even a guardian of hers who told her about the force in stories on Jakku would be better than the nothing we got until :I ROS.
But THIS film did establish prior set up of her caring - her telling Luke that she wants to find out how she fits into all of this, Ren saying that she keeps trying to tie herself in that way and that this is her greatest weakness, her going to that dark side hole to try and reveal their identity and then finally Kylo telling her "you have no place in this story". Also, nobody ever established that you need training to pull a mind trick, it's a low tier power that only works on weak minded goon which for trained Jedi takes much less concentration and visible mental effort (her heavy breathing afterwards) that it did Rey, after 2 failed attempts might I add. As for out-pulling the saber, Kylo was physically and spiritually exhausted after a shot from Chewie, depleting what little was left of his force energy already by using the force to slam Rey into a tree, killing his father and visibly looking weakened afterwards and getting stabbed by Finn... also, Maz establishes that the saber "called to Rey"... "and so much more" yeah so much more lies by ommission from people like you
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 I don't think I was omitting anything, just not fully explaining myself. TLJ bringing the want for parental figures back is ignoring her realization in TFA. It goes even further as a meta line because everyone asked "why did Rey join the resistance beyond BB8 and Finn just dragging her around?" Then the response is, "you have no reason to be here, but I will give you one." You say they never establish that you need to be trained to mind trick, but the only person we ever see doing that before Rey is Obi-Wan, a jedi master, and Luke after years of training. It sets a precedence that it is a technique used by masters. I have no problem with Rey using force pull or beating Kylo in a fight, if they established she knew anything about the what the force could do or about lightsaber combat. And no, training with a staff does not count as saber training, neither does the "downloading Kylo's training" explanation from the novels. My problem is we know so little about her, so when she starts using force abilities that she has no experience even seeing before it gets annoying. I don't care how weary Kylo is, Rey has never used, seen, or heard of force pull before(she has technically only seen force-mind-probe, force-push, and force-restrain). Luke at least had some guidance from Obi-wan and still could barely do it with little resistance.
@@willow1601 "TLJ bringing the want for parental figures back is ignoring her realization in TFA."-What realization? "You say they never establish that you need to be trained to mind trick, but the only person we ever see doing that before Rey is Obi-Wan, a jedi master, and Luke after years of training. It sets a precedence that it is a technique used by masters."-no, it doesn't, especially considering that after Luke uses it in Jabba's palace, he then goes back to Yoda who tells him he won't be a Jedi (let alone a master) until he confronts Vader. So that timeline doesn't add up with your logic. Plus, again, the way those 2 use this ability are wildly different - Obi-Wan calmly and instantly hypnotizes the stormtrooper like a total pro, meanwhile Rey needs to take 3 tries and breaths heavily afterwards, showing that it took a great deal of mental effort from her. What's the problem here, again? And I hope you're not planning to say "OK but she still ended up pulling it off so it doesn't matter if she struggled" considering... "Luke could still could barely do it [force pull] with little resistance." which you brought up as a plus to Luke over Rey. Rey doesn't have to know anything about lightsaber combat, there's a reason the number of scenes where Yoda taught him that in preparation for a lightsaber duel were 0 - and that's because of this exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him" "you mean it *controls your actions?"* "Partially, but it also obeys your commands" Hold on, I just realized something... why would Rey even need a special reason in order to want to fight against the first order? I'm Jewish, but I don't think that I have to be in order to be against nazism, you know? "I don't care how weary Kylo is"-yeah well too bad, it still matters lmao "And no, training with a staff does not count as saber training"-OK, so... this is what you sound like - Luke: "master, moving stones is one thing, this is totally different!" Yoda: "No! No different! Only different in your mind..." Gee, it's almost like the force doesn't care about the physical differences between a rock and an X-Wing, and certainly not between a staff and a saber (if anything a saber would be even easier for a force sensitive to wield due to the kyber crystal providing a better connection to the force) Luke (who also force pulled before being shown learning about it) had guidance from Obi-Wan who told him to feel the force and let him guide him... kinda like what Maz told Rey. Interesting. Then you guys wonder why you're called misogynists.
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 No need to be hostile. I haven't insulted you once and I have never once attacked the character Rey for being a girl. I have no qualms about the actors physical qualities at all. I diagnose you with terminally online, joking. Even if Luke is told he won't be a jedi until he beats Darth Vader, he most definitely is a jedi. Like I said Jabba's Palace was after a lifetime of knowing about jedi, then 5+ years of knowing about the force at all, at least 2 of those years spent in intense training with Yoda. My reference to "little resistance" was the lightsaber was just sitting there in a little bit of snow. And great, she struggled to pull it off. That's good for character growth. My issue is her never seeing (mind-trick and pull) before. If she learned by example that would have at least been a little better. Yes, Yoda didn't teach Luke how fight with a lightsaber. Why do you think Darth Vader beat him so bad? Even in the prequels they separate dueling and force mastery as skills when referring to Windu as a great duelist and Yoda as a powerful force user. True, you don't have to have a reason to fight a clearly evil enemy. That's on me. I was only bringing up common arguments that led to the speculation behind Rey. This is more opinion on the Kylo vs. Rey thing. (I've heard the common argument that Kylo being a dark side force user allows him to channel pain and anguish to power their combat. This is where I have disagreed many times. I still believe that the mini force-pull battle should've been won by Kylo given his years of training and immense raw power as stated by Luke. I especially believe a broken and battered Kylo winning the duel with Rey would provide Rey something to work toward and establish Kylo as way more formidable.) Last, I'm unaware of kyber crystals increasing a jedi's connection to the force because I am only using movie canon(because clone wars contradicts a lot of the movie events). If I were to see the force as something that allows you to do anything well with little training(like it seems you do) I wouldn't be very invested in that story.
Rey is a Mary Sue, and that is 99% of the problem. Everything is handed to her. Compare her arc to Ahsoka which the fandom embraces whole heartedly because her development was so carefully done. You are meant to be annoyed by her in Season 1 and 2. She absolutely 100% is a know it all, but without the experience to back it up. She fails, multiple times in the series, but grows with each failure. Until you get to Season 7, where you see her leading the Battle of Mandalore, and facing Maul. She doesn't have as much development in Rebels since she is not a main character, but the screen time she does get further's her character well.
As someone who is a League player and have known Arcane's characters for the last 7 years. I know full well that Jinx will have to happen eventually, but as the show goes on, I was starting to empathize with her that maybe there's a chance. In episode 9, I know there's no way that Jinx would kill Caitlyn and put her head on that platter but I was hooked into the scene and felt like tgey were real that at the moment I was also scared. It just left me questioning myself why would I even believe that. And that's when you know the writing is that great.
MAN! I literally watched Arcane kinda expecting to all of it going south because of the already existing lore and so, but... That scene with the cupcake?? I started confident that they were not going to kill a champion in a prequel series but man i never doubted more in my life
@@IoniaZero This really shows just how spectacular the writing and storytelling was. We could literally already know what's going to happen, because it would be such a major controversy to deviate from existing lore, and yet they made us question....
Good video but Iv always felt the problems with the Sequel Trilogy started with The Force Awakens not TLJ. Remember that insulting "A Good Question for another time" JJ used to hand wave away any problems with his mystery box plot. It's been admitted that they didn't have Luke show up until the end because he took the focus of the ST characters and Poe was meant to die in the Tie crash but was kept alive for no other reason than Oscar Isac asked too.
@@master_samwise Yep, the exigence of this trilogy was "Let's play with our new toy and cash in ASAP" not someone having a story they were passionate about
@master_samwise I think their plan was basically to do a reboot, albeit marketed as a Sequel. They wanted to copy Marvel. Marvel movies are basically McDonald's movies. It’s essentially the same story over again but with a different super power. So Disney used that and a whole lot of nostalgia bait.
Arcane's best "subversion" was done by not subverting expectations during the blue-flair scene. Totally thought "Ok here we go Vi's not going to make it and Jinx is going to assume she's abandoned again and then double down on the evil" mostly because that's what all the crappy writers have been doing for years. BUT! Vi made it! Kept her promise to Powder, and for a brief moment we were able to struggle against our tear ducts and wonder if we were about to see a POWER HOUSE TEAM-UP. That was the moment that really made me an Arcane fan for life... or until someone like Ryan Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, or JJ gets involved and F's it up.
Dont worry, Riot games is taking notes from their customers. Its something I learned from then ever since starting to play league. Not sure if you can relate or know this, but theres a champ that got his cigar removed because of smoking, and for years we asked them to put it back, which they eventually did. We asked them for a Star guardian (A very feminine galactic superhero skinline that also includes some feminine dudes) Urgot Skin (Urgot being a 6-legged monstrosity who is basicly barely alive) and they gave us the closest thing to it they could without disrupting their lore (Pajama guardian, basicly a skinline that cosplays as star guardians) which by itself, is a company saying "I know what you want, but I dont wanna give you exactly that because it disrupts my lore plans, so letz get you the closest thing to it". We all screamed for a tv series, and we got it in arcane, we wanted a shooter and an RPG, they released Valorant and an MMO is on the line. Honestly, Riot sometimes gets bashed by their playerbase due to balancing reasons and champion designs, but eventually they always try to make up, by releasing less complex champs and simplifying items. If there was a gaming/content company I have to choose to stay with them only forever it would probably be riot games.
I think the way they could have handled Luke drawing his lightsaber on Ben would be via a vivid vision that had him react. Say Luke senses something, so he walks to Ben's room, then gets a vision so intense that he pulls his lightsaber out to deflect a hit from a helmeted figure (kylo), which wakes Ben up and then continue as it was in movie. You would need more scenes showing Ben being corrupted or in inner turmoil. This way, Luke isn't trying to preemptively kill his nephew, he's reacting in self defense to an extremely intense and realistic vision. This is how I head canon this shit anyway, that Luke reflexively drew
Dude that would have made the movie so much better! It could even have explained his hesitation to ever use the force again by showing how he accidentally pushed Ben to the dark side, which caused him to fear teaching others. If he had accidentally done it once what would stop it from happening again? It would have been the perfect storyline of Luke trying to come to terms with his fear, eventually overcoming them and training Rey.
@Gilbert Green ty for saying that. It kinda mirrors the cave in dagobah too with how Luke "fought" Vader. Also when I say Luke senses something in Ben's room, it's the darkside from palp (or what coulda been plagueis) corrupting ben.
Or they could have made it to where Ben legitimately was evil, and when Luke tries to bring the good out in him like he did to Vader, it ends up not working, and Kylo kills all of Luke’s students. Then Luke would become the bitter old man in exile we see in the movie.
That's not head canon that's what already happens in the movie "oh but they didn't show the vision" yeah, and same goes for the Dagobah vision about Luke's friends suffering then, either
Remember: The magic of subverting expectations well, is not the the subversion. Anyone can come along and just do what's unexpected out of nowhere (*ahem* Johnson). What takes real talent is the expectation. Leading the audience down a false path that _feels_ genuine, only to pull the rug out and still have the real path make sense, _that's_ magic.
Take a look at Brandon Sanderson's second book in the Mistborn trilogy, The Well of Ascension. I won't spoil it, but he intentionally leans into familiar fantasy tropes only to COMPLETELY rug pull all of them in the climax, recontextualizing everything you thought you knew. And when you look back at the story, the clues were there all along.
Yes! Gosh that ending is AMAZING.
What I like is when the subversion not only makes sense, but makes sense MORE than what you may have been thinking. Then it makes it feel like the definitive answer, and not like it could’ve been any one of many options, which each kinda make sense and are equally viable
It's also useful to be answering an unwritten question while doing so because it gives the subversion more depth.
@@scotwilcox1771 There were several examples in the trilogy and all of them were amazing.
Arcane has multiple strong female characters, both protagonists and antagonists. What it also does is still retain strong male characters, the female characters aren't strong because the male characters are weak, they are simply strong characters. Its maddeningly well written and I hope they continue the quality in the 2nd season.
EXACTLY. Strong female character doesn't mean weak male character... Something MCU should learn
@@newbie4789 I'd say it's more like they permanently unlearned it when Gamora was killed by Thanos and they misread why people were angry. Before Infinity war and Captain Marvel, they didn't seem to have any problem just making well-developed female characters that are also strong without messing up men, but that's all over now.
Agreed about Arcane, but regarding your implication - Poe literally destroyed a dreadnaught's initial defenses all on his own, Finn saves Rose (a female character in distress) by killing his abusive ex-boss (a very morally weak female character) and Luke ends up saving the day and the movie literally ends with a bunch of kids being inspired by him
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 Yes, but Poe spends the entire movie after that being talked to like he's a reckless idiot (and the film implies through Leia that this is what he was being), Finn spends most of the film being 'educated' on how things aren't so black and white + has to be pulled out of his major character choice by Rose because his choice was 'wrong', and Luke spends most of the movie being spiteful and unhelpful, only saving the day with the sacrifice play after Yoda shows up to slap him down and tell him why he was wrong and that Ray already had all the Jedi texts (and Luke) could have taught her. Every victory or near-victory of a male character is paired with them being 'humbled'/mistreated in some way and is often paired with the message that if they had just believed in their perfect female counterparts then everything would have been better. Meanwhile all the female characters are doing the 'humbling'/mistreating and, as previously stated, are depicted as being 'in the right' and usually more competent than their male counterparts.
@@deamongimli (1/2)
OK, so... remove all that stuff, then what? Realize that they would be mary sues (I hope you at least realize that a male character can be one, too) in that scenario? one really can't win with you f*ckin' people
Also, good job missing the point of what Finn's plotline was actually about considering DJ is presented as wrong for fence-sitting and not picking the clearly good side
But yes, all the female characters are in the right, especially (again) Phasma, you sure are being objective and unbiased right now
Good job ignoring scenes like Luke's first lesson, where he is the one in the right and Rey is not only ignorant and naive when it comes to the force but her draw to the dark side nearly ends up killing them both. Or hey how about the one where Snoke (a man) wipes the floor with her, needing Kylo (another man) to save her? Interestingly I never see you fine gentleman bring up that one, curious, I wonder why, truly a mystery (the answer to which is "lying by omission")
To me arcane is proof you can have almost all the things that modern audiences like and still make a good show at the same time. It literally has almost everything most people would complain is pandering yet did it very tactfully, atleast in my opinion
It worked because, unlike in most instances, it wasn't pandering to anybody.
The female characters' only personality traits aren't the simple fact that they're female, the black characters' personality traits aren't the simple fact that they're black, etc. When I was watching Arcane I never even made note of the various characters' race and gender, because they weren't put in place to check boxes. You can tell that the creators of the show just wanted to create a good experience everything else be damned.
No look at the Star Wars Prequels. Preachy would be a generous term to describe how their characters are written.
That is one of the best things about Arcane, it isnt woke even though it has some very similar qualities, no character feels put in place to be a pandering device, no character gets forcibly added a new trait to satisfy a portion of the audience, everything is very natural.
Also the show puts little focus to the few things that could be considered as woke, it always has the plot in mind and sometimes you are so enthralled by what is happening you might not even notice anything like that, at least that happened to me.
God i love this show
I meana large part of "modern audiences" obviously don't like the things that are complained about by them, otherwise they wouldn't be complaining. I think it's a loud minority that likes the crap people use to make cookie cutter remakes and retellings. But the reason people dislike it is because everything else is sacrificed for that inclusion. Arcane doesn't sacrifice anything, it barely emphasizes the aspects that "modern audiences" like and instead emphasizes the story being told, the relationships and actually interesting politics instead of identity and sexuality.
@@ethanaterx5046 and its also very accurate lorewise. Piltover and Zaun's position on the map make them a perfect trade route, because they are the only ground that connects Valoran and Shurima which are 2 great continents with lots of various cultures and races. So people of different race or skin color staying there makes perfect sense. Its not like they threw them in a place where only white people live or something.
@@ethanaterx5046 yes! and the relationship between Caitlyn and Vi wasn’t forced or made a big deal out of either- the only “big deal” that was made of it was the fact that Jinx thought Vi would be replacing her with Caitlyn, which makes completely logical sense to her character and there wasn’t any of the “ohh but they’re gayyyy” bs that so often gets shoved in audiences faces to yeah, tick another box. they just love and care for each other as humans do.
I love the complex "grey" characters in Arcane. No one is really a "good guy" or "bad guy"
When I was watching arcane, through both the 2nd and 3rd arcs, I was so hoping that Jinx would come back as Powder, but part of me new that wasn’t going to happen. I have a little bit of hope right there at the last episode, and at Vi and Powders initial attempt at reunification at the end of the 2nd arc, but I think the show went in the right direction with it
That scene where they're reunited and you think Powder might reemerge but then Jinx takes over when she sees Catelyn is incredibly well done.
@@master_samwise I am familiar with the LoL lore, so I more or less knew where Jinx had to end up at the end, but man, did it hit hard... Even harder than the warehouse scene, because back then you still think that there are still 5 episodes for redemption.
@@kardnails8729 Yeah I was gunna say soimething similar. Anyone familiar with who Jinx is, What she has done and what she becomes knew going in that there was no happy ending for her, not really. Jinx is a broken mess of psychological disorders and fucked priorities. We didn't go in hoping she would be saved, we went in wanting to find out how she became who she is and why she can't be saved. I think we got that and so, so much more with Arcane. It blew pretty much everyone away with how great it was and rightfully so. Tbh I think the show is a masterclass in how to write something that appeals to both long term fans and newcomers alike. Powder/Jinxs conversion and lack of redemption is a great shocker moment for people who are unfamiliar with her character and the way it is explained and executed is a wonderfully written explaination of the things we already know about her. Not to mention expanding on Vi and Cait and their relationship is a big win for League fans everywhere. We all shipped them before it was confirmed and to have it solidly canonical is a huge win for the fanbase.
That's exactly what I Loved. It was like we knew it will not happen but we just wanted it to happen, Like many stuff irl. We need some things to happen even though we know it won't happen... And it always keeps us invested
We see two brilliant scientists killing themselves in a state of the art laboratory trying to harness the power of that energy, it’s literally like half the plot, then an insane and constantly distracted teenager does it with no effort offscreen in the last episode in a grungy and poorly lit attic filled with trash.
Arcane was like 95% as stupid as TLJ.
I actually like how Rey’s parents were (or well at least supposed to be (sort of?)) nobodies. I thought that it was good subversion too. Cool to see I’m not alone
Personally, I found it stupid, though not necessarily in and of itself. Having a Jedi character be a descendant of nobodies is, despite this video's seeming to think otherwise, perfectly normal for Jedi. That's almost a defining characteristic of being a Jedi. Only a few, like Count Dooku (former Jedi) had actually important parents. Nothing that this video says was positive about TLJ is in any way new. The problem for Rey's parentage is, well, frankly, Rey herself. She's too inexplicably powerful, doing things in the first two films that we rarely see Star Wars characters do even in animation or video games, for it to make a lick of sense for her to be the child of a couple of deadbeats, though that still might have been better than what TROS decided to do. Then there's the issues of Leia comforting Rey, who she's barely met, in TFA after she gets back from Starkiller Base and trusts her with the Falcon AND finding Luke, and of Anakin's old lightsaber calling out to Rey. Besides the fact that lightsabers DON"T DO THAT, why would it do that for her specifically? Logically, in terms of storytelling, there should be some kind of connection there.
Put more simply, the idea by itself isn't horrible, even if it misses the fact that the numbered films (and their efforts to call all nine movies the Skywalker Saga make this even worse) were supposed to be the story of the Skywalker family, starting with Anakin's rise and fall, then moving on to Luke's story and Anakin's redemption. The problem is that it is being implemented in the wrong place (a SKYWALKER SAGA film, where there's a lot of connection between characters), fails to understand that this isn't something new to this universe (just look at the old EU), and indirectly makes mincemeat of the universe's lore.
You know who else's parents were "nobodies"?
Anakin - freaking - Skywalker. His mom was literally just a random slave on Tatooine, and his father (possibly) did not even exist (and the implications of what it would mean if he did exist - considering Shmi doesn't remember him at all, are quite disturbing for a Star Wars movie)
@@LadyDoomsingerAh yes, being born without a father, what a normal and common occurrence
Though tbf lots of Jedi are just taken from normal families so most of the time they really did just come from nobody
@@dinoboiis8147 Didn't stop people from having countless theories about Rey, so that's why it's different for her character specifically
The biggest problem with Rey's parents being nobodies is... her saying out loud to Kylo (and the audience) that they were nobodies. The last film established that Rey simply wanted to find them, she knew who they were, she didn't expect them to be significant characters in the galaxy's history. The idea isn't bad but the execution is tone deaf, it's like she is breaking the fourth wall and actually commenting on stuff that only exists outside the universe of the movie.
Let's also not forget, that Anakin Skywalker's parents were "nobodies" as well - his mother was just some random slave on Tatooine, and his father is completely unknown - so it's not really much of a subversion. The whole "humble origins" is as much of a trope (if not more) as "heroic legacy" so I don't really get what's supposed to be subversive about Rey's parents.
But THIS film did establish prior set up of her caring - her telling Luke that she wants to find out how she fits into all of this, Ren saying that she keeps trying to tie herself in that way and that this is her greatest weakness, her going to that dark side hole to try and reveal their identity and then finally Kylo telling her "you have no place in this story".
@@LadyDoomsingerHis father was not completely unkown, there was none which automatically makes him special (a sort of chosen one, if you will) cope
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 exactly. Anakin Skywalker was born special, but he was born to a random slave woman on a planet so far out that the credits weren't an accepted currency.
@@SebasTian58323 I like how you keep ignoring that his father was essentially the force itself (which was according to a novel influenced by Palpatine to cause that to happen) but yes, totally random
I'd like to make another point about Jinx and Vi meeting again:
My expectation was for Jinx and Vi to be enemies. I expected Jinx to still be mad about what happened, even expected her to be mad at Vi for not coming when she lit the flare. This was further set up by the fact that they are enemies in game and it shows them fighting in the opening credits. I was expect them the have a final battle where Jinx may be redeemed after being defeated.
But none of that happened.
they will most likely have the main fight in season 2
An important element to add to your debate on expectation subversion has to do with something I think should be touched upon: believability. The trope of the young childs in Arcane leads to the idea that, to prove herself, Powder will be there, use her toys and save the day. That's how it should go following the expected path. You could subvert that path in any number of ways, like for example, Powder changing sides and becoming Jinx without buildup or explanation (not saying that's a good path for it). But the one chosen is the best subversion possible because it is believable: if you are a little girl playing with explosives you don't understand and using them in an uncontrolled manner, the logical consequence is that people are gonna get hurt and things won't go as you would think they would. The trope, since it's supposed to be the hero doing it and not the backstory for the villain, is set in a way that we expect the unreasonable to be what happens (that she would save the day), when in real life such an outcome would not be expected because we don't have heroes and plotlines in the real world. So a large part of doing a good subversion of expectations has to do with you making that alternative take actually feel more real than the expected one, like almost unavoidable once it comes to pass: of course Rei's parents are not Skywalkers, did you really think the galaxy is so small every important character has to be from the same family? Well yes, that was the expectation to many, but the reasonable situation is actually the subversion.
I'd argue that Rey's parents being nobody is still a bad example of subverting expectations. Let's start with what the purpose of subversion is: it is to change an expected arc's direction in a way that is still logically consistent on a rewatch and creates new implications to consider and new paths for the characters to take. Arcane's third episode is great because its subversion is entirely telegraphed by the characters and their motivations. It goes against the expected convention of a group of young kids against unstoppable odds, but the character dynamics lead to choices that will naturally prevent the expected convention from properly forming. Once Powder is told that she's not ready by the one person that has always had her back, it doesn't matter how sound the decision is to leave her behind because Powder will do anything in her power to prove herself, no matter how destructive it ends up. Moreover, this change in arc creates new paths for the characters to follow as they are fundamentally shaped in drastically different ways by the events.
Compare this to Rey's parents being nobody. Rey's parent's could have been anybody, regardless of preestablished relevance, that would make Rey reconsider things about herself or the hope that she was holding onto or make others see Rey in a different light. Instead, we get nothing, a dead end, a surface-deep subversion. This was exacerbated by the fact that Rey's concern for her parents was already resolved in TFA when Maz told her that whoever she was waiting for on Jakku isn't coming back and that she should instead seek Luke to train her. Her sudden interest in her parents again in TLJ is jarring without something to reignite this interest. But the whole reason her parents have been made so important are because of two main flaws in Rey. 1. She is lacking in any other defining trait like Luke or Anakin had, so audiences latch onto the one promise of development that they've been presented with, hoping that it will lead to something that will define her. 2. She is given too many skills that let her escape situations that the plot throws at her. The Prequels already established that Jedi can come from anywhere, Rey isn't special in that regard. Anakin wasn't from some blessed bloodline, he was the start of the bloodline. Obi-Wan wasn't from some dynasty, neither was Mace Windu or Yoda or Qui-Gon. They all trained to be as skilled as they are, and proper dynasties are unlikely considering the Jedi Doctrine's stance on attachments. But Rey didn't need to train to be so inexplicably skilled, so people speculated that she must have inherited her skills. If she had some defining character traits that helped her better distinguish herself or wasn't as skilled to start (preferably both), questions about her parents would not be as significant.
I think you made a very important point: You're taking your characters to a new level.
I believe this whole "Subverting expectations" started with Game Of Thrones, especially in their episode "The Red Wedding". However, that moment wasn't there just cause, it pushed our characters and the audience's understanding to a new level where you can't just be naive in a political world and think that everyone will play fair, some will play dirty and backstab you if it's more profitable.
I also noticed this trick used to perfection in the anime Attack On Titan where every time you think you have a grasp on the plot and worldbuilding, the show goes NOPE! YOU'VE SEEN NOTHING YET! And reveals a new element in the story to make things feel darker and more complicated.
Arcane did a brilliant job of subverting expectations in a way that was organic and almost inevitable because, while unexpected, given the characters and the world, the choices and the results could not have been otherwise. Basically, subverting expectations done well: unexpected but inevitable (natural, organic, makes sense and is in line with pre-established story elements)
The only critique I have of your take on the subversion in arcane is that it was really only a major subversion for people who hadn't played League. Players know Vi and Jinx were against each other. What caused the rivalry? That we didn't know when they came out but there were some hints if you knew where to look. As soon as I saw Vi and Jinx as kids I thought "origin story" not "new adventure with band of misfits." Definitely subversive to newcomers though. Great vid.
my favorite thing about arcane is that despite me knowing the lore, the twist was still insanely well done. they did an excellent job of mapping the story in a way that was still unpredictable despite knowing the general end point
1:19 This isn't an example of a good subversion of expectations. I didn't need Rey to be related to a previous character or a clone to be interested in that story. Her parents could have and should have been original characters. The problem is that the subversion does away with any potential for an interesting story. It is in fact the opposite of a story. It isn't the job of a writer director to essentially insult their audience over there fan theories. It's their job to tell a good story.
Imagine if Rey's parents were new Jedi characters Luke was training who turned to the dark side and assisted in the corruption of Ben Solo. Imagine if Luke had to kill her parents with kylo Ren revealing that to Rey at the end of The Last Jedi. Perhaps as a final act of good Ben could have sent her into hiding. Maybe they could have had it to where he became close to her during their training. This would also be a payoff for why we see Kylo Ren killing one of his Knights of Ren in The Force Awakens flashback. Perhaps he could have used a mind trick to modify her memory for extra security.
This could have also been why Luke was almost shocked when he sees her at the end of The Force Awakens. Believing that she had been killed the night Ben destroyed the temple. And Luke having given Ray some training previously would have helped smooth out the reason she was already proficient in the force. And this could have also offered some conflict between Rey and Luke going forward and provided the backbone for an actual danger of her going to the dark side.
It would have been especially interesting if all Kylo Ren had revealed to Ray at the end of The Last Jedi is the fact Luke killed her parents. And Luke sensing her conflict over this could have withheld the full context from her until after her training and after he steers her away from the dark side. Luke could have given Rey the opportunity to kill him as a final test and she wasn't able to go through with it and so afterwards he reveals what actually happened.
You know? Something like a story that pays off plot points that had been previously set up as opposed to nevermind. It all meant nothing but we had you going didn't we? And I'm not saying my proposal was the only thing they could have done to make it interesting. Any writer worth their salt could have told a compelling story without resorting to previous lore or cheap tricks. Either way this subversion is just as trash as the rest of the movie.
Rey’s parents being nobodies was a great direction for her character, and it did build off what was built up. She spent all of 7 and the beginning of 8 hoping for someone to give her validation. She wouldn’t leave Jaku because she couldn’t accept that her parents, and by extension anyone else, didn’t care about her. Then she latched on to Solo to fill the void, and then she wanted Luke to give tell her what her purpose was. When things don’t work out with Luke, she latches onto Kylo. The easiest thing for her to hear would be that she/her parents mattered in the story. Her accepting that they didn’t care about her means that she has to find her own self worth and create her own role in the story. This is also what makes her confrontation with Kylo so much more compelling. He offers her the easy way out and a place to belong, but it’s not the best thing for her.
I think there were plenty of interesting stories that could have arisen from Rey being the child of nobodies. Like Master Samwise says, it suggests that Rey is unburdened by any legacy or heritage, that she is free to forge her own path. For a minute there I thought she and Kylo would team up, and really go in an entirely new direction; Kylo throwing off the burden of the Skywalker legacy (hero and villain, fate of the galaxy etc.) and Rey throwing off the need to be defined or placed. I thought she would make a deal to save her friends, and bring order to the galaxy in a new way. That seemed to be what everything in TLJ was building up to, with Kylo saying kill the past or let the past die or whatever. I thought that was going to be a powerful mantra going forward. But that's all a bit too much brainpower for the creative folks down at Disney.
@@thedapperdolphin1590 her own role my ass, she just a female Luke Skywalker that rebuilds the Jedi AGAIN
I will never get tired of Arcane analysis 😁 great video!
The problem I have with the subversion of Rey's origin in TLJ is that it still results in a highly dissatisfactory and jarring portrayal of the theme it's going for. If Rey's not a "chosen one", then she becomes even less relatable to the audience, because she has demonstrated power and prowess in the Force surpassing that of the actual chosen one from earlier in the franchise - the message can't be "Rey isn't special and regular people can have the Force too" if the entirety of the rest of the story is reinforcing that she is clearly special in every way, and the only other character who is close to being as special as her (Kylo) is descended from a Skywalker.
There were two parts of the question around Rey: who are her parents, and how is she so powerful? People assumed answering the first was the same as answering the second, which isn't necessarily true. But still, if the answer to "who are her parents" is "well, her parents don't matter", that still leaves a giant question mark over "how is she so powerful?" Instead of empowering people to feel like they can also be Rey, it pulls the audience out of the story and makes them wonder, "well so she's special just by sheer chance?" That may ring true to real life where there is something to be said for natural talent, but it makes for a deeply unsatisfying story.
speaking about subverting expectations, just watch Succession if you haven't so, there is a masterclass case of subverting expectations meanwhile respects the audiences' memory.
I liked the idea that Rey was born of nobodies and that the Force is more of a gray thing. The most compelling scenes was with Kylo Ren knowing this, wanting to go in another direction and offering Rey to join him in seeking that new way. It would have been cool if she did an so much more intriguing to see where it would lead. Arcane's third episode really made me fall in love with the series, because of everything you talked about. I really love Andor not because it's subverting things but showing us things in the SW universe we really weren't aware of, like the sacrifices it took to get the rebel movement going and what people had to do to get an alliance built. It was very gray.
If it was instead Kylo who attacked Luke while Luke was sleeping due to building arrogance and cavalier attitude towards the dark side of the force and snoke's corruption.. We would have been totally on board with Luke wanting to run away like a failure. It would have also made Kylo's wavering redemption arc more potent since he could be seen as feeling he burnt the bridge and couldn't be redeemed anyway, so doubling down is the only way.
Yeah or if Kylo had actually destroyed the temple and murdered students and Luke felt personally responsible for what happened, not only to them but to Ben too, not having the foresight to see, not seeing the signs or being able to guide him to the light and protect him from Snoke so he felt shame and couldn't face Leia or Han. Or even better, "the Knights of Ren" started to hunt him down so he went into exile or he felt he needed to get away and find himself again. Find answers, rethink everything so he left but with the intent that he would one day return and try to help.
I will never get over the complaints of Luke's character in TLJ. Of all the things in the film, the most interesting plot was between Rey, Luke, and Kylo. Y'all haters of Rian's version of Luke need to listen to one of RJ's interviews where he goes into his thought process for how he wrote Luke. You can hear how much he cares about the character and wanted to do what he could to not just do his character justice but add new layers of depth. Star Wars is heavily modeled after Campbell's Hero's journey. What RJ did with Luke is continue Campbell's Hero's journey after they achieve their goal and what you typically do in this regard is to have them lose something in order to build them back up within the framework of your story. RJ literally followed the Campbell formula. George Lucas himself had written and conceptualized some things for his version of an episode 7 and guess what? He does the exact same thing with Luke making him a bitter old hermit with a young ambitious new Jedi who wants to learn from him and he rejects. That's because Lucas is also following Campbell's model as he has been the entire time.
The reason y'all hate RJ's version of Luke so much is because of JJ Abrams. TFA is the real reason the sequel trilogy failed because it failed to establish this new world properly, instead opting for weaponizing nostalgia. JJ's obsession with mystery boxes failed this trilogy because he never has any answers for them. So he made Luke a mystery plot MacGuffin instead of actually using and establishing Luke's character and character arc. In what way is it the sequel's responsibility to establish plot details that were set up in the first film? That's bad filmmaking. RJ got the short end of the stick because he made the best film in the trilogy, he cared the most for the characters, he did the most to evolve the franchise, and yet he's hated the most despite TRoS being so unforgivably bad that it's an embarrassment of a film. It's so bad I just don't even consider it canon and never will.
In fact because of JJ's poor establishing of Luke's character (in that he DIDN'T) Rian HAD to make Luke's character the way he did and in that interview I referenced he goes through the process of trying NOT to make an out of character Luke but within reason. He's missing throughout the entire first film which has some pretty important things happening and he had to explain why Luke didn't help because that would be out of character. So he goes through explanations. He says he can't have been capture because he should still be powerful enough to be dangerous. He'd have to be disconnected from the force otherwise he would have felt Han's death and the destruction of several planets, and the rising of the dark side and he would have gone into action. He has to be there isolated by choice and he has to be convinced that what he's doing is the right thing. Yet you think he intentionally ruined Luke's character when he was limited by JJ's failure to even establish his character or character arc.
Every single one of you people who hate on Luke's character arc in TLJ always say the same things yet conveniently ignore established lore. When Luke tosses his lightsaber, y'all hated on it like Luke would never.... Excuse me but what was the last thing you saw Luke do with a lightsaber? When he decides to be passive and put down his weapon, he tosses it like it's garbage. The idea that a lightsaber should be respected by Jedi is severely out of character for the Jedi. For one they are simply tools and tools of defense. While a lightsaber may be unique to each Jedi they are not meant to be worshipped or something. Luke has always never really given a shit about his lightsabers. Remember how he lost Anakin's lightsaber in Ep8 and no one said shit about it? Then he shows up with a brand new saber he constructed himself and at the end, tosses it like scrap. You say that's out of character for Luke? Lol. Well your wrong. He never gave a shit about that lightsaber. And he doesn't want to fight. He put down his weapon as a Jedi should.
The next complaint is what happens between him and his nephew. And again y'all always say the same thing. Luke is the guy who saw the good in Vader and turned him so he would never even think about hurting his nephew.... Guys... y'all know damn well what it took for Luke to achieve that. Like I know y'all know the ending of ep 6. Like right before Luke saves his father he literally cut him to pieces in a furious rage and nearly killed him and was literally on the cusp of turning to the dark side. Hamill is literally making the same face during the Ben scene as he did when he cut Vader down. Luke would never hurt his family member? The entirety of the original trilogy is about everyone trying to get Luke to kill his own father and he nearly succeeds. Even in the context of RJ's script he still only for a split second reacted tohis vision and you say it's out of character for Luke to defend his loved ones? Luke literally says it during the flashback. He said he saw the destruction of everything and everyone he loved at the hands of his nephew. And what does Luke do when you threaten his friends and family? Can you reference the original trilogy for me? That's right, every time his loved ones are threatened he response with emotional rage and immediately comes to their defense without thinking. Luke losing his shit for a split second is totally normal. Why do you guys think Luke should be a flawless character? Flawless characters are boring.
What RJ did with his core cast of characters was challenge them in the most difficult way possible. You think Poe was mischaracterized? Lol. Okay tell me what his characterization is in TFA? He's simply described as the best pilot in the resistance. He's brave and brash. and that's it. We see him outside his cockpit only a few times and otherwise he's piloting an X-Wing. So with his only character trait being "the best pilot" RJ takes away his X-Wing to force more characterization from him,\. Yeah he's a good pilot but is he a good leader? RJ's simply adds much needed depth to his character. Rey is characterized by her mysterious parentage. If that's the most important thing about her character then the most difficult thing for her to deal with is being a nobody in this story. It forces her to be her own character. Finn didn't seem to exist separate from Rey in TFA. He had a weird obsession with her. But he also doesn't have an arc in TFA. Yes a common theme in TFA is that no character has an actual character arc except Kylo. Finn doesn't end up fighting for the Resistance because he cares about their cause. He only joined with them to save Rey. So RJ had to give him a reason to fight and since he was tied by the hip to Rey, RJ separates them for the entire film. Luke is most known for turning Vader back from the dark side. The most difficult thing for Luke to deal with is inadvertently creating another Vader within his family. Kylo is meant to invoke Vader but has a temper. So RJ gets rid of the helmet because letting Adam Driver emote in his scenes is far better than covering up his face and does what Vader couldn't and supplants his master which was the most interesting thing to do with Kylo because he was literally just another Vader and we need something different.
These are not easy writing decisions to make. These are decisions made by someone who cares about the characters they are writing. They are challenging to a writer and he did more than a commendable job, he actually made it work cohesively and on top of that threaded each side plot into the main narrative where all plots intersect at the end in a natural way. A feat in and of itself. None of the other films in the sequel trilogy are as narratively tight and engaging as RJ's TLJ. Not all of it works. It's not a perfect film but for the sequel trilogy, it's the most well made one of the three. It's the only one that tells a complete story.
Sorry for the long post. If you got this far, thanks for coming to my TED talk
I feel that like most people, you misread Last Jedi. Remember that scene in Return of the Jedi when Palpatine was trying to goad Luke on and Luke lost his composure and was just kind of wailing on Vader until Luke realized what he was doing? Remember how he responded to that? He tossed his lightsaber away and refused to keep fighting. And in Empire Strikes back, when Luke goes into the cave during his jedi training and sees a vision of himself becoming Darth Vader, what does he do? He balks, horrified, and soon abandons his training. So then, how is it "so out of character to the point of character assassination" that when he tried to revive the jedi order and saw the pattern of it falling to the dark side threaten repeating, he pulled away (like he's verifiably done before)? And no, he did not just label his nephew as irredeemable and try to kill him on a whim, he only lit the lightsaber in a moment of pure reflexive indistinct- which he immediately regretted before Ben had even noticed. Sure, it was a weak motive for such a plot-critical moment and Luke shouldn't have had such a quick trigger finger for someone wanting to bring jedi back to their mystical spiritualism roots as opposed to the paramilitary they were in the prequels, but that wasn't your criticism. If you're going to criticize the film, make valid criticisms.
Arcane episode 3 was one instance of me remembering sincerely dropping my jaw for a long time.
*Vi is facing Deckard, Milo is still working on Vander's shackles and Claggor is working on the wall*
"Come on Powder, I know your bomb can work! "
*Vi safely holds Deckard at bay, Milo frees Vander and Claggor opens the way out*
"Wait, what? It's working?... Wait a second, then what about the bomb and-?"
*THAT happens*
"😱😱😱😱😱"
Seriously it was glorious.
What really impressed me about the writing in Arcane was how they constantly had a "happy ending" juuuuuust out of reach. It was there, all the time, through the entire show. Which is why it surprised me so much when they didn't go for it. It had such a good build up for both a "good" and "bad" ending
The short of it is plot twists shouldn't involve lying to the audience. TLJ turned everything we knew about Luke's character into a lie.
The twist that Rey's parents is not only a good twist for the statement it makes about who can be Jedi, but it also fits in fantastically in the scene itself.
Rey is just like Kylo, looking for a place to belong. In saying this, followed by his offer to take his hand in joining him, is providing both him and her a purpose outside of this war.
And for a moment, she almost takes it.
I'm not saying that twist where she joins him would fix the movie but God would it have been better than what we got
Like any tool, it's _how_ you use it, not just _using_ it. With a hammer, you can knock in a nail to hold two pieces of wood together, or you can just knock nails in randomly because you think the sound is impressive.
I have never (and probably will never) played League of Legends, so I had no idea what I was getting into with Arcane. I didn’t know the characters, world, or any of the lore. So with the first few episodes, I was expecting the plot of plucky street rat children going what they could to survive of some shit. I was absolutely not expecting what happened. Phenomenal.
Well the thing is, in the previous movie JJ set it up that Luke abandoned everyone and ran away from the new empire. Ryan just gave us the Luke, JJ created and hinted at in the first movie
i like Luke's subversion, but there was one way to make it believable and still connect to ROTJ. In that movie, we see he overcomes the dark side and it going on to become a great Jedi. What if instead of Luke pulling out his llightsaber to kill Ben, its Ben who pulls the lightsaber on Luke.
Make it so that once Luke see's Ben's darkness, Ben senses Luke, and upon being discovered to being turn to the dark side, attacks out of Anger. Then after Luke comes to, the Jedi school is destroyed and his students are killed.
This way you have Luke instead of being the one to set Ben on his path is merely a bystander and a victim of Kylo Ren.
This makes his hopeless view of the world understandable, because instead of causing events, he is broken by them not because of anything he did or didn't do, but instead he has become hopeless believing that there is no point to training Rey.
This makes his redemption make more sense as he is not overcoming his guilt, but rather his hopelessness.
It also does one more thing of keeping Luke innocent and pure, like most Jedi aught to be.
When Powder threw that toy with the Hexstone or whatever it's called into the Warehouse I was like: "Oh man I wonder how they pull that of without killing like half the group..."
most of Arcane's story was already in the game, but a lot if it was made in-depth or rewritten to make it more connected.
in the game lore, Jinx/Powder was said to go crazy after accidental explosion that killed her whole family (Vi wasnt her sister in-game, just rivals). there was a demon of fear that would torment certain characters by saying specific lines. for Jinx, the demon would say "youre a jinx!" and "all your fault!"
so i think the people who would fully enjoy this would be those whove never played the game, because they wouldnt be spoiled of anything like how Jinx and Vi came to be.
I remember being shell shocked each week they released a trio of Arcane episodes.
I got my dad (a classic film buff) to watch Arcane and he commented on how surprised he was by how dark it was after it set out in the beginning of act 1 to be a standard action film like you describe, similar in tone to avatar
One of the most frustrating things about The Last Jedi’s subversions is how Rian Johnson is so clearly thrusting his ego in our faces from start to finish, constantly using his nonsensical twists to say “Ta-da! Look at what an absolute genius I am!”
Subverting my expectations by subverting my expectations for this video. You son-of-a-gun, I'm in! Great video again!
Some good examples of subverted expectations can be found in the first few seasons Game of Thrones. The Season one ending with the execution of Ned Stark (mirroring the beginning of the whole show where he himself has to execute someone) being a major character the whole time is a huge twist nobody saw coming. Then again in the red wedding. You see Robb Stark and his mother making progress with the war effort only for them to be betrayed at his own wedding. John Snow getting killed in the season finale was the peak of GOT because we all had to wait to see what would happen next. Then the show got stupid with its writing cause they ran out of books.
I think the only people who was able to see the twist in e3 coming were people who knew the league lore and knew that Jinx was the cause of some kind of distaster when she was young and even then people who knew it because of that (like me)
THE SHOW WAS STILL AMAZING
Honestly, TLJ was two movies in a trenchcoat, one of which (the jedi plot) had promise and the other (ship chase) was irredeemable hot garbage.
I give the jedi plot so much credit for being the one and only time in Star War the "Join me" trope actually seemed tempting! "I am now defacto the ruler of the dominant military power on the eve of a new era. Join me and lets write laws and govern and shit. What do you want the galaxy to be like? We can build that!" It falls apart because they are both so attached the embers of this rebellion that neither can just let it go. For Kylo it's "who cares about one ship of rebels escaping?" For Rey it's "Why is rebelling inherently good? The First Order is ripe for change and you can steer that change." Also I really loved the emotional beats of the "But not to me." monologue.
Luke needs exactly one fix. He needs a quick montage of failure. He needs a history of essentially school shootings at his academy for teenagers with magic powers, so that when he see's Kylo start down that direction he goes "Not again. Never again." Luke's story can easily ask the question "Is the warrior equipped to be a teacher?"
Let us also remember that in the OT, every time Luke has tapped into the dark side it has worked out for him. *That* is what makes the dark side dangerous. It whispers, "Hey, here's just a little power boost you can sip on in an emergency. It's ok. You can handle it. You've always handled it so far."
Arcane subversion is so great because it bombs the meta expectations based on watching hundreds of shows. SW subversion is bad because it twists the internal logic of the story in most awkward and crude way possible.
The thing is Star Wars could have subverted our expectations by switching the roles of the heroes and villains. Imagine the fragile new republic trying to maintain peace while the first order is this small deadly force that unleashes smaller but devastating attacks and disappears only to do it again and again. Luke’s Jedi are just a a dozen and they’re still trying to figure out what their role is. It could have been a really different and exciting environment for a trilogy. Instead we just got Empire vs rebels again.
You explained everything perfectly, with one exception; the changes made to Star Wars were done because Kennedy actually hates the franchise and everything about it but also knows it will still make money no matter what she twists it into. Luke's character assassination was not only deliberate it was done specifically to the fans the finger.
The extended universe of the books did not make Luke a bitter old man. Rian Johnson did not pull from that for Last Jedi. EU fans were just as unhappy as movie only fans.
Oh yeah I didn't mean to imply they did, just wanted to clarify what most of the audience would expect.
Arcane: after the expectation was subverted, it still makes sense from a character and story perspective.
The Last Jedi: after the expectation was subverted, but you feel it was cheap because it spits in your investment in the story and the characters. Nevermind comparisons to the original trilogy. It spat on people who were invested in The Force Awakens.
I disagree that the "they were nobody" is good subversion. And a reason she should have had someone was her talent in the force. We've seen that the force does flow strong through bloodlines. since she didn't have a master, she NEEDED to have some direct connection to the force or she just didn't make sense. (also the bit about anakin's saber calling to her. that didn't make sense unless she was related in some way to the main cast)
Edit: I will say it COULD have been a good subversion if it hadn't been heavily implied in the earlier movie.
When subverting expectations is done well, it's also called surpassing expectations
I told my friends it’d be more interesting if she was a Palpatine. I would’ve made her staff come from Sith Alchemy and been one of the Emperor’s relics that he had collected. I would’ve had Kylo destroy her lightsaber forcing her to defend herself with the staff and both be shocked the lightsaber couldn’t cut through. Then have her beat him with the staff since she’s been using it her whole life. It would’ve ended the first installment with a mystery. Part 2 have Luke casually touch the staff and read its origins. Luke wouldn’t tell her what he saw but would be fearful she could be drawn to the dark side so he puts her through a series of tests.
Great video. Let me nitpick. 2:49 It would be one thing if the fans created this expectation themselves but the expectations were set by the film maker in the Force Awakens. I see how challenging the importance of bloodlines could be done right however it feels like that never took place in these movies. Ray never dealt with the idea that her parents could have been “somebodies” or “nobodies”. We also never got to see the fallout from this revelation. This subversion felt more like a “made you look” kinda thing.
I heard from a forum that the reason why Disney made Luke into something so disappointing is because they want to make way to a new more marketable character.
the subversion needs to be believable and not out of no where. For most of arcane your thinking Vi is doing a great Job as your caught up with the action like the character ignoring all the collateral damage she is causing as she is simplify a complex grey problem into simple black and white. Which finally backfires on her in the final episode. Like if GoT had a random guy kill the night king it would make sense as all the prophieces and what not are non sense and everyone was just using them as an excuse to commit terrible deeds like happens in life.
Huh, I never really thought Arcane had that subversion in the third episode because I already knew Jinx and Vi from LoL and in-game Jinx is practically Harley Quinn lmaoo
The problem of The Last Jedi is that it subverts expectetions inspired by hatred and disrespect towards fans and the material. Instead, Arcane subverts expectations by trying to present the most cool plot twist a writer can imagine.
Basically a cool plot twist comes from asking yourself "how can I make audiences to learn that everything they knew was wrong in the most cool possible way?" That means you need to understand what is cool for your audience. The cool factor was replaced by the hatred factor. How to make the most cool things dull and dislikable.
This is how the plot twist now is that hatred inspired writers write their heroes like mediocre villains. Check every hero they praise and you will see.
Although the the point is really good, I know I couldn t really enjoy the "subvertion" of arcane for a simple reason : I m a league of legend fan. For me, this was an origin story for characters I already loved, and of witch we knew very little about their youth. From the beginning, I already knew things were supposed to go wrong somehow, so for me, I was almost more suprised to see their happy time together than seeing things blow up (although it is still a shocking moment).
Although Arcane is an incredible show, it is interesting how it is an entirely different experience depending on weither you already knew the franchise or not. One thing that helped a lot is that, as I said, there was a lot of stuff that wasn t explained about that part of the character's life, so it left a lot of free room for the writter to make something good (instead of just struggling to fit the lore)
Tbh, I thought Po was very on brand for Last Jedi. Admiral what's her face (can't even be bothered to remember her name) had absolutely no reason to withhold her plan from Po. Her reasoning was literally, "I am strong female leader and I don't answer to no man." She literally just needed to say, "Chill dude. We're going to an abandoned rebel base. They won't even know." I don't think Po was poorly written at all. In fact, I think he was the only decently well written character in that whole movie.
I can't agree with Rey's parents being an example of "good subversion of expectations". It could have been, but the problem is the setup doesn't lend itself to that being a satisfying reversal of expectations. The Disney Star War trilogy is deeply flawed from the fact that the story for all 3 movies was not drafted first before filming each one. Each one had a different director (originally Colin Trevorrow was going to direct the third movie before people revolted from how bad Jurassic World was) and each director was given free reign over the story direction (with the caveat that Kathleen Kennedy had final say).
This led to JJ Abrams setting up Rey's parentage with his classic "mystery box" approach to filmmaking as a major plot point. Rey refused to leave Jaku because she was waiting for her parents to return. She wasn't a baby in a crib when she was left on the planet either, she should have been old enough to know who her parents looked like. JJ never set them up as a mystery *to her* it was a mystery *to us* who they were and why they left her on the planet and why Rey was so certain they'd return some day. There have been much complaints about how JJ played things too safe with Force Awakens and how it was essentially just A New Hope : Again and I think Rian Johnson heard those complaints and massively over-corrected. Where JJ treated the original Star Wars trilogy as almost sacred gospel that could not be altered, Rian treated the material as a bag of cliché tropes just looking to be poked fun at.
This led to Rian completely changing the context of the mystery JJ setup in Force Awakens all for the sake of a subversion that wasn't satisfying. Sure, people are tired of everybody in the Star Wars universe being related to one another. But the answer to that wasn't for Kylo, who for some reason knows Rey's true parents, to tell Rey who her own parents were as if she didn't know. The mystery was why Rey was so sure they'd come for her on Jaku. Saying her parents were some junkers who ditched her doesn't satisfy that mystery. I mean I guess you could say Rey was just in denial (for her entire adolescent and early adult life) but if that was the case, she gets over this world shattering revelation pretty much immediately after Kylo says, "you know it to be true" or whatever version of that he says, and we move on. Thus trivializing and wasting the audiences time for why Rey bothered to spend so much time on a desert planet scavenging junk despite being fully capable of leaving whenever she wanted to.
If Rian wanted to keep the subversion here but make it fit within the context JJ setup, Kylo needed to explain why they never returned to Jaku despite Rey being so certain they would. Here Kylo could have said her parents were First Order traitors who fled to the Galactic Republic and that the First Order captured them before they could fully get away and killed them. Then we could have a flashback of her parents telling child Rey that they would return for her once they contacted General Organa. This not only would be a subversion of expectations that her parents aren't some past important characters of the Star Wars universe but also connect the first movie with the third movie (if we still want to use the awful Palpatine stuff). We'd understand why Rey was so certain they'd come for her as well as why she seemed to fantasize about being a member of the resistance. Because she imagined her parents meeting the current leader of said resistance, General Organa, and coming to pick her up so she can join the fight against the First Order, who her parents defected from (this could even tie nicely into Finn's story as it would indicate Finn isn't the first First Order soldier to break free of his brainwashing and defect).
A subversion needs to serve a satisfying purpose. In 6th sense, M Night sets up little hints that Bruce Willis is dead all throughout the movie. When the twist happens it makes it all the more satisfying for people who suddenly could connect all the dots throughout the movie.
Or a subversion can serve as a comedic twist. Rian clearly tried to go that avenue with Luke chucking the light saber, but the problem is Luke had never acted that way before. It was out of character for him to do that and also once again wasted the audiences time for the first movie which was all about "finding Luke". A better example of a subversion for comedic effect done right would be the final scene of Marvel's Avengers. The shawarma scene. Marvel had set this expectation in each of their movies up to that point to expect some major hint toward their next movie. Instead, we got the avengers awkwardly eating shawarma at a small restaurant in New York.
Rey being the child of “nobody” WOULD have been a good subversion if she EARNED her skills, expertise and power through her own effort and ingenuity.
It would have been a good subversion if the theme is further demonstrated by other “children of nobody” demonstrating the same powers in the force when they too train diligently and become in tune with the force.
Instead, in TLJ the subversion is completely meaningless. She could’ve been the child of a rock having sex with a goat, that would also be “subversive”.
Furthermore ROS undoes the subversion.
A good subversion answers the questions of the audience in an unexpected but meaningful way.
Why is Rey so powerful? - oh, that’s why. I hadn’t thought of that!
And not
Why is Rey so powerful? - *crickets*
With luke's character development it feels like they are parroting the yoda subversion.
They are an active and powerful jedi, protecting and maintaining the order. Later chronologically in universe they are a grumpy washed out hasbin. The reason for their change is a member of their order becoming evil after they sense darkness in them. A person who damages the order with the help of a powerful sith and wears a black outfit with a helmet that hides their face.
The issue, isn't with the subversion itself.
The important difference in their reasoning is that in both cases there were 2 "right" answers to dealing with the evil, give a personal touch to prevent it being realised or eliminate it. The only "wrong" answer was to do neither. The difference is that in Luke's case they do the "right" thing and fail so they arguably still deserve their position and in yoda's case they do the wrong thing from the start so they can make the case that they are not the person to restart the order.
It doesn't help that luke's motivation for not doing a thing is that they already tried to do it when it wasn't the obvious thing to do...
02:08 well I can tell you I did not type out any theory for Rey's parents
A subversion should never be worse or less interresting than the cliche
Your example of "good subversions" matches what I personally think would have been a fantastic and compelling theme for a SEPARATE SW trilogy by Johnson.
The ideas were good, but they were slapped roughshod in the middle of a trilogy they did not belong in.
Rey being nobody WOULD be fine... if she wasn't CONSISTENTLY showcasing talents and powers that she SHOULD NOT HAVE.
People make comparisons to Anakin and Luke... but both of them are fuckups. Consistently. Despite their natural gifts.
Anakin is a natural pilot and mechanically gifted (the latter being there EXCLUSIVELY so the droids could make a cameo, and actually detrimental to the character for it) He spends three movies screwing up so bad that he becomes the villain.
Luke can also fly well... but spends movie 1 being constantly rescued by more competent characters, movie 2 screwing up and abandoning his training... and the good guys lose, then movie 3 FINALLY being SOMEWHAT competent... but ultimately STILL not winning the day by his own merits (instead through his display of compassion. Bit ham handed, LOTR did it better, but still a good end!)
HONESTLY compare that to Rey. She can immediately fight better than a storm trooper (and a Sith, albeit "he was injured") fly better than Han, fix shit better than Chewie and generally saves the day pretty much personally every time. But she's a nobody.
Subverting expectations and just being dumb and unpredictable are two wholly different things. The sequel trilogy is a prime example of the latter.
2:24 I understand the point you're making but I think its ultimately faulty because of two main pieces of context, Rians choice to make Reys parents "nobody" really doesnt work in the context of the trilogy:
1) People werent theorizing en masse about Reys parentage for no reason or because we think being a jedi is about bloodlines as you later imply - its because Reys parentage was established as an important plot point in The Force Awakens, JJ Abrams had Rey give immense weight to her parents which cues the audience to believe that plot element will have weight for us, which is what spurred people to start theorizing - We know this is true because at the time, everyone was excited for Finn to be a jedi yet hardly anyone (save for a handful) was spouting theories like "Finn is the son of Mace Windu!" or whatever. The reveal of Reys parents in TLJ was lackluster for most specifically because we were made to believe itd be important, otherwise most would have assumed she was a random character to begin with. Its more a case of set up with no payoff than it is a case of smart subversion.
2) Subversion in literature is usually meant to change or broaden the audiences expectations and perspective on a given situation - but Rey not having special parents doesnt do that in the slightest in the cotext of Star Wars and so the subversion feels pointless. Anakin was the child of a literal slave from bumfucnowhere, Han Solos parents are never even discussed, Obi Wan Kenobi has no lineage to speak of, nor Palpatine, Yoda, or Ahsoka. In the context of Star Wars, lineage has never been a requirement to be a Hero or Force User, to the contrary, the jedi make it a point to separate children from their lineage - the only characters with a "special lineage" are the twins Luke and Leia, they are outliers in the context of Star Wars. So, again, there was nothing being subverted as it is already well established and known that most Star Wars heros, villains, force users, etc dont fall back on a special lineage - thats not really a troupe to be associated with Star Wars - leaving what could be a smart subversion in another story feeling entirely empty and pointless in Star Wars.
For these two reasons, Rians choice to make Reys parents no one is less of a riské artistic subversion and more of a spite to The Force Awakens and to the fans who believed that the attention they paid to that film's storytelling would actually be rewarded in subsequent films.
The problem I have with RJ’s idea of Rey’s parents being nobodies is that he was trying to make a point that had already been well established in the Star Wars films, shows, books, and comics.
It was already known that greatness and use of the Force could come from anyone and from anywhere. This isn’t profound. Rian just found a way to express common knowledge in the weakest and unnecessary way possible.
The best thing Rian did, subversion wise, is killing Snoke and elevating Kylo Ren. Now THAT is good Star Wars subversion. 👍🏼
Thor Skywalker said Rey parents were probably nobodies and that it made sense. Rian subversion shows he was more interested in fan theories than the actual ep7. Because ep7 made Rey move on to find Luke. And then Rian stats the movie with her still looking for a parents.
love seeing arcane being used as good comparison material, i'm sorry star wars pooped its pants on screen
Arcane set out to tell a story and subverted expectations by its mechanics and how they wanted to tell their story. TLJ was made to subvert expectations rather than be a great story.
Excellent video and great points, hopefully my own story will be more in the Arcane category.
To answer your question; Arcane did NOT subvert my expectations.
That's because I already knew these characters from their league of legends lore, and the history of Zhaun Vs Piltover, so in my case I knew going into the show that Jinx is a chaotic evil terrorist, I knew that Caitlyn is the sheriff of piltover and I knew about her history with Vi and how Vi and Jinx are arch rivals, as well as knowing that the Zhaun piltover war was inevitable, so watching the show was simply a ticking clock to the inevitable disaster moving closer and closer.
My biggest surprise was actually seeing Viktor as one of the good guys, but there is still a lingering sense if dread to every scene he us in, as his fate and transformation into the Viktor we know and love moves closer and closer.
With the Rey's parents are nobodies, I didn’t actually believe it. A villain said it when he was trying to manipulate Rey... I thought it was a setup for a better subversion. But also none of the other options were satisfying. They either didn't really mean anything or felt contrived. So if Reys parents were nobodies and the reveal had setup I would have been happier.
I'd say the biggest rule for me is once you have subverted an expectation, what have you put in its place.
Youre tearing down childhood memories and idols. You better give me something awesome to replace it with.
I feel like to many writers seem to think the act of making something different is that something awesome.
I'd ague that newer is always better is not an acceptable trade off.
You take away my fine wine or well made steak and give me a hot dog and grape juice.
Like yeah sure I'll watch/eat the new, but I'm not going to cheer your decisions and come back to your BBQ/franchise again.
TLJ was great. Not just because it's "subversive of expectations." but because it genuinely follows explores and expands on the lore in a good way. It's the best of the sequels.
Wanna see what happens when they try to cater to TLJ haters we get The Rise of Skywalker which was largely warmed up garbage.
Ngl, I didn’t think the Ray‘s Parents Twist was well-executed either. It was so on-the-nose that it felt like Johnson was tapping a giant finger on the fourth wall, although in fairness this may have been caused by the fact that these films constantly tap the fourth wall in this way.
I agree that it also does do those positive things you mention in some way, but it feels sloppy.
Avoiding why Rey being so powerful doesn't make sense since others explain it so well.
Luke in LTJ was so disappointing because it was so out of character. He sense the dark side in Kaylo Ren so he is going to kill him?! That just completely out of character. Now if we change that to Luke sensing the dark side in Ben Solo and failing to convince him to follow the Jedi teaching would make sense. Think of Luke feeling the weight of Obi-Wan and Yoda judgement in his mind as a failure to bring back the Jedi order from his own nephew?! Now that would of been more powerful.
But what we got made no sense.
Amazing video friend. One thing I don't get is that Last Jedi gets praised for the "parent subversion" for showing how anyone can be force sensitive but wasn't this already the case in Star Wars? Special bloodlines did exist but most Jedi and Sith were not from special bloodlines. Obi Wan, Mace Windy, Qui Gon, Asajj Ventress, Dooku, etc all were average people with no special bloodlines. The Lucas movies and shows already established this fact.
You could re-make this video with clips from Indy 5 and you would barely have to change a word of it.
You could have just compared Stat Wars media for subversion because KOTOR 2 did subversion well. Subversion of expectation done right is meant to have the audience asking questions about principles. Spiteful subversion is designed to destroy what is loved about a franchise.
I rather doubt Rian johnson did it to surprise fans. The entire movie is basically there to destroy everything Abrams set up. It's pretty much Rian going "You suck. Mystery boxes suck. Here's how you do a real movie." Just look at everything he does to destroy everything that could possibly be used to go somewhere. His disdain of Abrams just shows everywhere.
Mind you, I do think he had some good ideas. I like the idea of having a bomber sequence. It builds on how Lucas used WW2 airplane movies as the basis for space combat in the original Star Wars. I like Finn getting past his puppy dog love of Rey, finding a person of his own, and becoming a real hero rather than a wannabe white knight. I do think we need fewer connections to the Skywalkers and so on. But the execution... the execution was horrible. For so much of the film.
Rey's parents is one of those poor executions. This was the second act, and this reveal has no bite, does nothing to advance the story. Nobody really was invested in her search for her parents' identities. Even Rey wasn't clinging on to the idea that her parents mattered. There's no reason for her to be disappointed that her parents aren't Jedi or something. All it did was toss out a mystery box, without accomplishing anything. For the reveal of her parents being nobodies, Rey being crushed by that, you first need to establish that Rey is invested in that them being big shots, and in a way that makes us want it to be true for her. All things the first movie didn't do. It just dropped a mystery box, said Rey wanted to find her parents, and left it at that, so that could maybe be used to advance the plot in the future, but without any thought put into it. Rian being disdainful of Abrams is understandable, from that angle.
But that brings us to the second movie. Rian's job was to progress the story, to do things that matter. Like, say, if Rey had been the daughter or granddaughter of Palpatine, and therefore the First Order venerates her. Couple that with some flaws, some weaknesses, and she could potentially collapse into despair or rage and end the movie sitting on the throne of the First Order. Something that would do more to make the audience want to see that third movie. Which is what Rian was hired for, to progress the story based on what the first act set up, and make us anticipate that third act. But Rian wasn't interested in doing his job. All he cared about was showing his disdain for Abrams's writing. But proper subversion needs groundwork laid first, and this wasn't done by either the first or second movie. And so we get just another mostly pointless bit, because Abrams set this up, and Rian could not resist the urge to toss it in the garbage.
He was too busy feeling smug and superior to do his job.
The thing is... Luke's arc in the movie is far and away the best thing about it, and not because it is subversive.
There's just a complete lack of understanding of the conventions of sci-fi in Rian Johnson's TLJ.
He's a dab hand at quirky indie detective stories, but that's the genre he knows inside out. He had no idea how to deliver the mix of sci-fi and space opera, and none of the imagination required to deliver a powerful Jedi Master, so he just went for a do-nothing stagnant wreck of a man instead.
How much of that was at the producer's insistence might be a good question.
Disney should have doubled down on subversiveness instead of going into full on damage control mode.
I mean I hated what they've done with SW, but at least they would have shown a tiny bit of integrity.
In short, Arcane is perfect
Arcane is brilliant
I really really liked that Rey was a nobody from a desert planet. After all, isn't that what makes Anakin interesting ? This is why in almost every story the protagonist is an orphan : it conveys that anyone and everyone has huge potential... because a story is intended for everyone.
I didn't even mind that much that "somehow Palpatine returned", even if it was lame as there is literally an infinite number of possible interesting villains. Why ... ! ... anyway I was really disappointed when they had to make her his daughter: it is just a cheap ripoff of Luke being Vader's son.
Am I missing something? Rey is palpatine’s granddaughter, she’s from the palpatine bloodline.
But she does have a notable bloodline, her dad is a clone of palpatine.
TLJ was the best of the new SW films within the trilogy. Rogue One was the best of the bunch.
I have no problem with Luke being bitter. He was an idealist that got his idealism verified in his father. What happens when he keeps going and idealism doesn't pay off? Bitterness.
Granted, the set up was poor.
It would be very hard to write a story where Luke isn't hobbled in some way. Otherwise he would be the protagonist again.
My only issue is with your praising of Arcane to take risks when it came to killing characters and subverting expectations by making everything that could go wrong, go wrong. It was all based off of previous lore that had been established through LoL. There was only one way it was ever going to go... it literally had no option of being the happy-go-lucky show, where the characters would learn and grow from their mistakes. If anything, like someone else in the comments stated, the first three episodes of Arcane were the true subversion of expectations; Vi and Powder getting along and living a happy life with their adoptive father was never the expectation.
Theories of where Ray come from were created by her uncanny ability to use force, that was demonstrated in the first film. Natural explanation for this wouldv'e been that she was from a lineage of force users. Subverting this expectation leaves the question open and since movie provide no answer for it, the other prominent explanation comes to mind - she'a Mary Sue.
So no, I don't agree that it was a good subversion. It could've been, if question of het power level was adressed, but it wasn't.
Watching episode 3 of Arcane, I was literally clapping my hands, going "Oh boy, oh boy! Powder's gonna save the day, and totally wreck Silco's operations, now that she's finally figured out how to make her bombs work properly! This is her moment to shine!"
I was fully prepared for an epic, massive explosion that demolished the entire building... I was not prepared for the consequences of that explosion.
Ikr? When everything was going to work I was like "wait if the bomb is useless now then what?" And my jaw dropped unironically for the first time in years
Its what he was saying we all know this kids adventure movies/shows that why we all expected the from you told ending only to get something way better and darker😬 One of my other essay youtubers once sayed:"death and violence against children is one when not the most delicate tool in story telling. but when pulled of corectly it shows that this world makes no exeptions even from the most vulnerable."
@@Speedy2619 which one?
@@itayker22 savage book
I did see it coming, sadly. It was still impactful, but if you pay attention to her methodology while creating the weapons, it's clear that how to make them work is much more important to her than what they will ultimately do. Reckless disregard for the consequences is a hallmark of her character, and seeing her kill all her friends and lose her sister in one fell swoop was telegraphed for those who were paying attention. That did not detract, as I said, from the impact of seeing the entire spectacle play out. One can see the dominos being placed, but watching them fall is still exciting in and of itself.
The biggest point of subverted expectations for me in Arcane was when Jynx used the flare and Vi was running towards her. I was so sure that something was going to stop Vi and that was why Jynx was gonna have issues with her. "You said you'd come and you didn't". But Vi made it to her. They reunited. But then Vi and Jynxs mindsets at the time and inability to communicate wih each other tore them apart again. It was so painful and so real. Its typical story telling when things in the universe just cause problems between characters. But it was so fucking raw for two people to just not be able to get on the same page and come to an understanding with each other.
I prefer that over the whole "conflict exists because of misunderstandings that would be cleared up if they just talked to each other" trope.
@@greghannibal What arcane did differently was trust. In almost every situation of "conflict exists because of misunderstandings that would be cleared up if they just talked to each other" Both characters trust each other, or the information can be easily verified. In Arcane the problem wasn't the characters unwillingness to talk to eachother, it was that one was unstable and had severe trust issues, and the other wasn't sure if that unstable person could be trusted. Not to mention the unstable person had a mentor that they did trust telling them not to trust a family member who they had trusted a long time ago. It was such a complex situation but it wasn't contrived because one group simple kept their mouth shut when they shouldn't have.
I have a friend who loves Star Wars and is in film school no less and feels TLJ is "pretty good" based only on the fact it was subversive. I keep arguing that it matters what is being subverted, how, and to what end. The sheer act of subversion alone doesn't make you a creative genius.
It’s not subversion alone, and know from RJ’s interviews that wasn’t what he was going for. Everything follows along pretty naturally from what the former movies built up.
@TheDapperDolphin lol that's factually incorrect the movie teaches Luke lessons he learned over 35 years ago.
You should probably let people have their own opinions and probably get a life too, instead of worrying how much a person feels about a space wizard movie, that also happens to be a very great movie for many other things than being “subversive” as you guys keep crying on about
@@TheCatLoverLord I mean I am not really sure you get the hypocrisy of your statement. You are jumping on me for arguing an opinion, using the logic I should let people have their own opinions, and then proceeding on to savage my opinion lol. Also, I am not criticizing TLJ strictly speaking, I was making a comment more about writing mechanics in general. Though you can infer I probably don't like it, but if you love it that is awesome. Finally, my friend and I both enjoy the debate, it isn't heated or ugly. And it is like an occasional 3-4-minute conversation while I am riding the bus, so I am not sure I am just wasting my life away on the space wizard movie. So yeah...
@@seriouslyrelax People like CatLover do not argue out of positive desires, it's the equivalent of vomiting in the middle of a normal conversation
I don’t mind the subversion of Rey’s parents, it’s the fact that they acted like Rey had been watching the movies. “Your parents were no bodies! They weren’t even main characters!” “What?? They were my parents, why would I give a shit if they’re galactic celebrities? What a weird thing to say.”
Yeah. "Your parents are never coming back for you, they don't even think about you" would have been fine, a hard truth for Rey to face (and would have implied an answer to the audience's questions). "Your parents have never previously appeared in any LucasArts or Disney canon intellectual property" is a completely meta comment aimed at the audience, not Rey.
I've been saying this for years. That scene was 4th wall breaking. Rian was so eager to smack down fan theories he went ahead and wrote the dialogue as if it's directed right at them. Lmao. Dude's whole thing was to be a troll.
Additionally the concept that anyone can be a jedi wasn't new or fresh. It felt so hammy and stupid. Like yeah man I've seen the prequels and saw hundreds of jedi....
I disagree. It's not uncommon for abandoned children to dream about being the child of someone rich and famous. It's like how a lot of children dream about being princesses and stuff
@@Graestra Those dreams of grandeur are indeed visible among some individuals - but Rey's character did not speak to me as though she wanted that easy way out. She had the framework of a character who didn't want to be weak (she sought power), she didn't want to feel lost (she sought guidance). If that kind of dream was a part of her character, then it wasn't noticed by me - I did feel like other characters were trying to make her *think* that she cared about who her parents were.
It's not that it would be unrealistic for Rey to have that response, but the problem is that it didn't seem consistent with her personality. (If you see things speaking to her actually wanting that, then I would have to change my perspective in this case :P)
She acted like she thought her parents were jedi or something, forgetting the fact that she didn't believe in the jedi until like a week ago.
I hated that they acted like Poe was somehow wrong even though had the Dreadnought not been taken down right then and there, the entire fleet would've been decimated during the chase. It was already stupid that the First Order fired on the abandoned base, since it was hastily abandoned, any competent military would instead send ground troops down to scour for any left behind information, instead of just firing on the waiting ships in front of them. We all know the bombers were a horrible choice, but one of the strongest ships in the First Order fleet for like 8 bombers is a pretty good trade.
Luke's bastardization was just Rian being as obtuse and changing as many things as he can. A better way to subvert expectations on why Luke ran away? Make Luke believe in Kylo, even knowing he's got darkness in his heart, believing that even with that darkness, much like him and his father, he will face that darkness and grow over it, leaving it behind. Then, Kylo betrays Luke's trust, killing all other students of his new Jedi Order and destroying everything Luke worked for, now, Luke is shaken to his core, he constantly believed in his father and knew he'd return to the Light Side, but now he sees how his belief in people can be misplaced. This would make sense canonically and it would be a much better way to explain his exile, which still sucks overall, but at the very least you can explain it away as his internal conflict, between wanting to believe in his nephew, but not wanting more people to fall into the light and dark struggle.
I felt like they should have made Kylo a loser who can't live up to the legacy of his family. Imagne how frustrated and angry he would become after training with Luke and being unable to achieve the things he felt his heritage had in store for him. It would be easy for him to turn to the Dark Side, or be corrupted by Snoke, in search of an easier road to power. I always figured that's why he worshipped Vader's helmet. But nah, let's just make it all a big misunderstanding. Whoops, I'm a bad guy now.
this more then anything else in the movie (and there is a lot) drives me crazy. the second they jumped out of hyperspace the dreadnought would have destroyed the fleet. poe not only made the right call he saved their lives and the rebellion (resistance, whatever).
also, the way you fix all of this is by revealing that there was no hyperspace tracking and that holdo was a first order spy. then everything makes sense.
I really like your take on Luke OP
You didn’t write this movie, you don’t get to decide who’s wrong and who’s not
Really appreciate how this touches on what TLJ did well in addition to the bad, a take we don't see often
I actually don't like that, I mean I like the Rey's parents are nobodies part, but the way kylo says it just feels wrong to me
I watched Arcane expecting nothing special about it. All I knew is that it was set in LoL's universe (which I never played), to me it was just a way to pass the time. And sure the first three episodes were entertaining enough so I just followed along. Then... Man... The ending of ep.3 left me stunned like no tv-show or movie had done in a very long time...
TLJ did not stun me at all, I had even less expectation from it as I came into that new trilogy very cautiously and new the main plotlines, I was disappointed that it was even worse than I think it could be, especially by the way Luke seemed completely ruined.
Thanks to you I finally understand why I felt those ways. Thanks.
Exactly how I felt. It was fun enough until episode 3 and then BAM it captivated me.
In before @Knowledge and Defense explains why you're wrong
The problem with calling Rey's parents nobodies, it's a meta line. She didn't care who her parents were in the Force Awakens only that they'd come back. The only reason the parent thing became relevant was people wanted some explanation as to where her force power came from if she didn't really train at all, but can still mind-trick effectively out force-pull Kylo and so much more.
Anakin, before EU stuff, was a gifted nobody from Tatooine who still had to train to not overstep his bounds. But we knew how he felt about his family. He worries constantly, asks about them, we see his relationship prior to the abandonment. Rey's parents being nobody does nothing because we don't know anything except that she hoped they come back.
Rey being a nobody in context of only until the lightsaber trip scene in Force Awakens is fine. After demonstrating force abilities that are only seen in masters some "lineage" was the only way to explain it, or maybe even a guardian of hers who told her about the force in stories on Jakku would be better than the nothing we got until :I ROS.
But THIS film did establish prior set up of her caring - her telling Luke that she wants to find out how she fits into all of this, Ren saying that she keeps trying to tie herself in that way and that this is her greatest weakness, her going to that dark side hole to try and reveal their identity and then finally Kylo telling her "you have no place in this story".
Also, nobody ever established that you need training to pull a mind trick, it's a low tier power that only works on weak minded goon which for trained Jedi takes much less concentration and visible mental effort (her heavy breathing afterwards) that it did Rey, after 2 failed attempts might I add. As for out-pulling the saber, Kylo was physically and spiritually exhausted after a shot from Chewie, depleting what little was left of his force energy already by using the force to slam Rey into a tree, killing his father and visibly looking weakened afterwards and getting stabbed by Finn... also, Maz establishes that the saber "called to Rey"... "and so much more" yeah so much more lies by ommission from people like you
@@knowledgeanddefense1054 I don't think I was omitting anything, just not fully explaining myself. TLJ bringing the want for parental figures back is ignoring her realization in TFA. It goes even further as a meta line because everyone asked "why did Rey join the resistance beyond BB8 and Finn just dragging her around?" Then the response is, "you have no reason to be here, but I will give you one."
You say they never establish that you need to be trained to mind trick, but the only person we ever see doing that before Rey is Obi-Wan, a jedi master, and Luke after years of training. It sets a precedence that it is a technique used by masters.
I have no problem with Rey using force pull or beating Kylo in a fight, if they established she knew anything about the what the force could do or about lightsaber combat. And no, training with a staff does not count as saber training, neither does the "downloading Kylo's training" explanation from the novels. My problem is we know so little about her, so when she starts using force abilities that she has no experience even seeing before it gets annoying.
I don't care how weary Kylo is, Rey has never used, seen, or heard of force pull before(she has technically only seen force-mind-probe, force-push, and force-restrain). Luke at least had some guidance from Obi-wan and still could barely do it with little resistance.
@@willow1601 "TLJ bringing the want for parental figures back is ignoring her realization in TFA."-What realization?
"You say they never establish that you need to be trained to mind trick, but the only person we ever see doing that before Rey is Obi-Wan, a jedi master, and Luke after years of training. It sets a precedence that it is a technique used by masters."-no, it doesn't, especially considering that after Luke uses it in Jabba's palace, he then goes back to Yoda who tells him he won't be a Jedi (let alone a master) until he confronts Vader. So that timeline doesn't add up with your logic.
Plus, again, the way those 2 use this ability are wildly different - Obi-Wan calmly and instantly hypnotizes the stormtrooper like a total pro, meanwhile Rey needs to take 3 tries and breaths heavily afterwards, showing that it took a great deal of mental effort from her. What's the problem here, again? And I hope you're not planning to say "OK but she still ended up pulling it off so it doesn't matter if she struggled" considering... "Luke could still could barely do it [force pull] with little resistance." which you brought up as a plus to Luke over Rey.
Rey doesn't have to know anything about lightsaber combat, there's a reason the number of scenes where Yoda taught him that in preparation for a lightsaber duel were 0 - and that's because of this exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him" "you mean it *controls your actions?"* "Partially, but it also obeys your commands"
Hold on, I just realized something... why would Rey even need a special reason in order to want to fight against the first order? I'm Jewish, but I don't think that I have to be in order to be against nazism, you know?
"I don't care how weary Kylo is"-yeah well too bad, it still matters lmao
"And no, training with a staff does not count as saber training"-OK, so... this is what you sound like - Luke: "master, moving stones is one thing, this is totally different!"
Yoda: "No! No different! Only different in your mind..."
Gee, it's almost like the force doesn't care about the physical differences between a rock and an X-Wing, and certainly not between a staff and a saber (if anything a saber would be even easier for a force sensitive to wield due to the kyber crystal providing a better connection to the force)
Luke (who also force pulled before being shown learning about it) had guidance from Obi-Wan who told him to feel the force and let him guide him... kinda like what Maz told Rey. Interesting. Then you guys wonder why you're called misogynists.
@@knowledgeanddefense1054
No need to be hostile. I haven't insulted you once and I have never once attacked the character Rey for being a girl. I have no qualms about the actors physical qualities at all. I diagnose you with terminally online, joking.
Even if Luke is told he won't be a jedi until he beats Darth Vader, he most definitely is a jedi. Like I said Jabba's Palace was after a lifetime of knowing about jedi, then 5+ years of knowing about the force at all, at least 2 of those years spent in intense training with Yoda.
My reference to "little resistance" was the lightsaber was just sitting there in a little bit of snow.
And great, she struggled to pull it off. That's good for character growth. My issue is her never seeing (mind-trick and pull) before. If she learned by example that would have at least been a little better.
Yes, Yoda didn't teach Luke how fight with a lightsaber. Why do you think Darth Vader beat him so bad? Even in the prequels they separate dueling and force mastery as skills when referring to Windu as a great duelist and Yoda as a powerful force user.
True, you don't have to have a reason to fight a clearly evil enemy. That's on me. I was only bringing up common arguments that led to the speculation behind Rey.
This is more opinion on the Kylo vs. Rey thing. (I've heard the common argument that Kylo being a dark side force user allows him to channel pain and anguish to power their combat. This is where I have disagreed many times. I still believe that the mini force-pull battle should've been won by Kylo given his years of training and immense raw power as stated by Luke. I especially believe a broken and battered Kylo winning the duel with Rey would provide Rey something to work toward and establish Kylo as way more formidable.)
Last, I'm unaware of kyber crystals increasing a jedi's connection to the force because I am only using movie canon(because clone wars contradicts a lot of the movie events). If I were to see the force as something that allows you to do anything well with little training(like it seems you do) I wouldn't be very invested in that story.
Rey is a Mary Sue, and that is 99% of the problem. Everything is handed to her. Compare her arc to Ahsoka which the fandom embraces whole heartedly because her development was so carefully done. You are meant to be annoyed by her in Season 1 and 2. She absolutely 100% is a know it all, but without the experience to back it up. She fails, multiple times in the series, but grows with each failure. Until you get to Season 7, where you see her leading the Battle of Mandalore, and facing Maul. She doesn't have as much development in Rebels since she is not a main character, but the screen time she does get further's her character well.
As someone who is a League player and have known Arcane's characters for the last 7 years. I know full well that Jinx will have to happen eventually, but as the show goes on, I was starting to empathize with her that maybe there's a chance. In episode 9, I know there's no way that Jinx would kill Caitlyn and put her head on that platter but I was hooked into the scene and felt like tgey were real that at the moment I was also scared. It just left me questioning myself why would I even believe that. And that's when you know the writing is that great.
MAN! I literally watched Arcane kinda expecting to all of it going south because of the already existing lore and so, but... That scene with the cupcake?? I started confident that they were not going to kill a champion in a prequel series but man i never doubted more in my life
@@IoniaZero This really shows just how spectacular the writing and storytelling was. We could literally already know what's going to happen, because it would be such a major controversy to deviate from existing lore, and yet they made us question....
Jesus, Cait is in the game and I expected her to be killed off then and there. Rito is sometimes just something else.
Good video but Iv always felt the problems with the Sequel Trilogy started with The Force Awakens not TLJ. Remember that insulting "A Good Question for another time" JJ used to hand wave away any problems with his mystery box plot. It's been admitted that they didn't have Luke show up until the end because he took the focus of the ST characters and Poe was meant to die in the Tie crash but was kept alive for no other reason than Oscar Isac asked too.
The problems started before TFA, honestly. They had absolutely no plan for where they were going and that kind of doomed them from the start.
@@master_samwise Yep, the exigence of this trilogy was "Let's play with our new toy and cash in ASAP" not someone having a story they were passionate about
@master_samwise I think their plan was basically to do a reboot, albeit marketed as a Sequel. They wanted to copy Marvel. Marvel movies are basically McDonald's movies. It’s essentially the same story over again but with a different super power. So Disney used that and a whole lot of nostalgia bait.
Arcane's best "subversion" was done by not subverting expectations during the blue-flair scene.
Totally thought "Ok here we go Vi's not going to make it and Jinx is going to assume she's abandoned again and then double down on the evil" mostly because that's what all the crappy writers have been doing for years.
BUT! Vi made it! Kept her promise to Powder, and for a brief moment we were able to struggle against our tear ducts and wonder if we were about to see a POWER HOUSE TEAM-UP.
That was the moment that really made me an Arcane fan for life... or until someone like Ryan Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, or JJ gets involved and F's it up.
Dont worry, Riot games is taking notes from their customers. Its something I learned from then ever since starting to play league. Not sure if you can relate or know this, but theres a champ that got his cigar removed because of smoking, and for years we asked them to put it back, which they eventually did. We asked them for a Star guardian (A very feminine galactic superhero skinline that also includes some feminine dudes) Urgot Skin (Urgot being a 6-legged monstrosity who is basicly barely alive) and they gave us the closest thing to it they could without disrupting their lore (Pajama guardian, basicly a skinline that cosplays as star guardians) which by itself, is a company saying "I know what you want, but I dont wanna give you exactly that because it disrupts my lore plans, so letz get you the closest thing to it". We all screamed for a tv series, and we got it in arcane, we wanted a shooter and an RPG, they released Valorant and an MMO is on the line.
Honestly, Riot sometimes gets bashed by their playerbase due to balancing reasons and champion designs, but eventually they always try to make up, by releasing less complex champs and simplifying items.
If there was a gaming/content company I have to choose to stay with them only forever it would probably be riot games.
I think the way they could have handled Luke drawing his lightsaber on Ben would be via a vivid vision that had him react. Say Luke senses something, so he walks to Ben's room, then gets a vision so intense that he pulls his lightsaber out to deflect a hit from a helmeted figure (kylo), which wakes Ben up and then continue as it was in movie. You would need more scenes showing Ben being corrupted or in inner turmoil.
This way, Luke isn't trying to preemptively kill his nephew, he's reacting in self defense to an extremely intense and realistic vision. This is how I head canon this shit anyway, that Luke reflexively drew
Dude that would have made the movie so much better! It could even have explained his hesitation to ever use the force again by showing how he accidentally pushed Ben to the dark side, which caused him to fear teaching others. If he had accidentally done it once what would stop it from happening again?
It would have been the perfect storyline of Luke trying to come to terms with his fear, eventually overcoming them and training Rey.
@Gilbert Green ty for saying that. It kinda mirrors the cave in dagobah too with how Luke "fought" Vader. Also when I say Luke senses something in Ben's room, it's the darkside from palp (or what coulda been plagueis) corrupting ben.
Or they could have made it to where Ben legitimately was evil, and when Luke tries to bring the good out in him like he did to Vader, it ends up not working, and Kylo kills all of Luke’s students.
Then Luke would become the bitter old man in exile we see in the movie.
That's not head canon that's what already happens in the movie "oh but they didn't show the vision" yeah, and same goes for the Dagobah vision about Luke's friends suffering then, either
thats brillaint tbh