The side of the GOAT debate that EVERYONE misses | Michael Jordan VS LeBron James
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มี.ค. 2024
- The NBA GOAT debate between Michael Jordan and LeBron James is one of the most heated arguments in the sports world. But there is one side of the argument that has yet to be considered. And it may just be the difference maker. Enjoy a fresh and new perspective on the GOAT debate between LeBron James vs Michael Jordan.
Subscribe to the official channel of the author of “The All-Time Greatest NBA Book” series, Basketball Universe, to enjoy the most unique NBA TH-cam channel that discusses topics that no other channel does. Make sure to give the video a thumbs up to allow the Basketball Universe to expand even further!
Here are the links to purchase “The All-Time Greatest NBA Book: Counting Down the 50 Greatest Teams, the 50 Greatest Playoff Runs by a Player, the 50 Greatest Playoff Moments, and the 100 Greatest Players” and “The All-Time Greatest NBA Regular Season Book: Counting Down the 300 Greatest Seasons by a Player”. Enjoy the two books that contain the most extensive list of the greatest seasons, teams, and players. If you enjoy reading about the history of the NBA, then those two books are a must-have to add to your collection.
The All-Time Greatest NBA Book: Counting Down the 50 Greatest Teams, the 50 Greatest Playoff Runs by a Player, the 50 Greatest Playoff Moments, and the 100 Greatest Players: www.amazon.com/All-Time-Great...
The All-Time Greatest NBA Regular Season Book: Counting Down the 300 Greatest Seasons by a Player: www.amazon.com/All-Time-Great...
#michaeljordan #lebronjames - กีฬา
Not just 6 rings - 2 three-peats
We can also accommodate LeBron fans and take the rings out of it and just mention the six Finals MVPs since many of them like the whole team accomplishment deflection.
And no game 7s in the Finals, and 6 Finals MVPs.
@@garlandwatkins WE can also accommodate the assists Lebron has as assists as well are a team accomplishment. U have to have shooters to make the shots, or no assist. So if u don't have quality shooters, u ain't getting assists..
Mj has the most prestige accolades of all time n the entire nba . 6 fmvps .
It would have been 8 rings if not for his time playing baseball.
When you get shutdown by Jason Terry in the finals, there is no way in HELL you can be a GOAT.
😂😂😂 facts
And Barrea
Correction Jason Terry and JJ Barea
You forgot Tyson Chandler and the crowded paint
And if you really believe that then you don't know shit about ball........ only LeBron Haters will agree with this bullshit
Lbj played all 82 once while MJ has played all 82 9x
And 1 of em for mj was when he was 40
@@kingdavid1828 JORDAN LOAD MANAGED 6 YEARS AND MISSED OVER 450 GAMES. BRON NEVER REST 18 MONTHS IN A ROW JORDAN DID TWICE 2 YEARS THEN 4 YEARS. U DERANGED
@@PIP...33tellem🗣️
@@PIP...33 That's not called "rest", that's called retirement. He didn't "miss" these games because he wasn't even in the NBA.
@@PIP...33LMFAOO and STILL WON MORE?? The LBJTQ COMMUNITY lives in a constant state of delusion
Flop won't make you the goat.
Facts💯. The consistent flopping, whining and making excuses with losses is pathetic.
@@pushermann8008didn’t Jordan go to the commission and get the rules changed after he lost to the pistons but yall don’t talk about that cause yall only talk about 6 years of his career lmao mj flopped and cried as much as the next person refs and commentators who worked during mikes time have openly said that refs favored Jordan Jordan used to travel all the time but the refs were told to let it go cause it’s Mike lmao
@@chickenuzumaki1771
I don't recall all that traveling. Not saying it did not happen,but I don't recall any one saying that when he played or seeing it myself.
It make you the goat of flopping.
@@themoviereviewwarriors939 yeah cause you probably never even watched mj play a full game just like 50% of his fanbase go watch full games from mjs era them mfs was ass compared to now Jordan did a behind the back to the same hand and the commentators went crazy doo that now your getting laughed at💀
There has never been a GOAT in any sport with a losing record. This debate is for those kids who got participation medals.
Best argument ever ! Well done ❤
Love it, participation medals. Nailed it
Factually correct
THANK YOU
Sounds like Bill Russell is the goat then? Jordan's record was 6 wins and 9 losses.
Jordan was a more fierce competitor than LeBron ever was. His desire to win was always much higher. That's the starting point.
Thank you!!!
Agreed, people today doesn’t know that Lebron looks great on stats, but, MJ is/was legendary on the court.. the desperate reach in this video is is hilarious..
Jordan was more skilled.
Why Jordan lost without Scottie then, why he quit when they fired Phil?
@yct2.0 Dumb. If you don't know why this is dumb you need to stop writing comments until you do.
When you have a 27.5% shooting within the last 2 minutes of NBA Finals games with a one point lead is not a goat, it's a choke artist
His style of play AND his lack of humility is WHY his teams are all getting ruined and his coaches are getting fired
The reason a LeBron led team is not mentioned in the Top 10 is because they are LeBron led teams.
No anyone of those heat teams could be a all time team but lebron failed them in 2011 and khawi making him say fuck is why they lost in 14 underachieving is apart of the argument.
@@nicholasfinnigan9955Why aren't the 2011 Heat top 100 in point differential if they were so good? The 96 Bulls and 2017 Warriors are, but they aren't.
Have y'all heard of a little thing called the CBA ?
"led"
@@shaft9000 yeah man...because he can't get the 'Led" out. haha
The difference between MJ and LeBron is that MJ wanted to win because he was a competitor. LeBron wants to win just so people think of him as the GOAT. This is why MJ will always be above James. LeBron is always SAYING that he's the GOAT, but he's not showing it. He just doesn't have the same winning mentality that MJ had, there's no denying it.
there is NO Debate...there is only magical thinking
Michael Jordan is just a better winner. It was always more than just 6 beat 4 rings. This is a great breakdown!
Jordan also had the best team when his teams won. Imagine Chicago at there best playing the Lakers, Celtics and Sixers at there best
What bout 11 beats 6 then
@@eugenebrown6477good point but you yourself dont believe Russell is greater than Jordan. Rings matters but there's more to that when you talk about the greatest in any Sport. I could live with Bron being the goat with only 4 rings if only he would dominate the league and his peers without assembling the best players. If you watch his finals against the Mavs, Spurs and Heat you witness too many flaws and he wasnt the best player of the series nor of his own Team.
See Jordan even when he lost in his early years, the oponents even said we were lucky he had no help. Jordan in any series -losing or winning - was always the best player on the floor and once he figured out how to win, he never losz
@@bigpoppa6658 we all know that spurs team is legendary so even if lebron averaged 50 they still would of lossed it’s a team sport but as far as goat debate I take lebron cause he played in a era where more skill and talent versus jordan when he was the start of whats going on today but the average player has jordan athleticism today
@@eugenebrown6477 if you go by talent and skills then Kobe is clearly the greatest or Duncan.
If you one of these guys saying MJ played against plumbers then you are ignorant and dont respect those who paved the way so avg players make 100 millions after 3y into the NBA, that's insane.
2nd how was Jordans era not talented and skilled?Hakeem won back 2 back when Jordan retired, right. He came back and won 3 rings in a row when he was 35, Rodman 37 and Pippen 34..Shaq and Penny were in their prime. Miller, Jackson, Mullin,Smits,Davis Brothers were no joke. The Knicks or the Heat with Tim,Majerley, Mashburn and Mourning and even the Wizards with Cwebb, howard and Rod were extremely talented and all of them can compete with todays league. The Bucks, Heat aint better.
Just check the 98 Allstar roster. How are these players not talented?? Most of them also played in Brons era and won rings late in their career while Bron was already in his prime: Payton, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Walker, Kidd, BigDog
So if Lebron is so much better like most Lebron fans claim and Jordan played against plumbers so why could Lebron not beat these plumbers when he entered his prime while the plumbers were old?
Lebron's teams aren't as successful when he's not on the floor because his teammates never play with each other while he's on the floor; they all only play with Lebron, so they never have continuity.
Plus a lot of his teams, at least in his prime, had 3 stars. If you want 3 stars you can't also have a deep bench. That very top heavy team is going to struggle when the best of the 3 stars isn't on the floor.
I think you got it twisted lebron is hindering his teams latent potentials his the reason why the team is weak, but If you consider the amount of players he has teamed up so far they are great players Lebron on the other hand doesn't know how to or neither had the capability to make his teammate better because they are already better he just needs to piggy ride them
Actually the Lakers play better when he's not playing. When he's playing and they lose the rest of the team and mainly AD gets shit on.
@@JoseRodriguez-wx5md Right! and AD's game is far much much better than Lebron his the unsung hero that Lefan media and Lefan base ignores most of the time it's crazy!
@@cheezezlayer493AD should have a fmvp
The greatest-of-all-time should probably be the best player on his own team.
And every team... like really, now - _in what series did MJ ~ever~ get outplayed by anyone_ let alone a 33-yr old 4th option?
People forget both Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant were drafted in Chicago and developed with Jordan and his competitive nature. Also Phil was a first time head coach, not an established coach like when he went to the Lakers
Phil had WON Championships as a coach BEFORE the Bulls.
Not as an NBA head coach
@@byronmobley1787 Whoever upvoted this comment should check their facts just as much as the person who made this comment. Phil Jackson won rings as a player with the Knicks. His first coaching ring was with the Bulls. He was never a head coach before that.
Scottie was drafted by Seattle Sonics. Chicago traded for him.
@@Newstyle87 So, at least Jordan didn't go out and have to create a super team with his buddies.
There is no LEGITIMATE debate.
LBJ is not even worthy of a mild discussion on that topic.
You never played pro basketball you don't know shit
You ain't worthy of a mild discussion
@@rikaiturner2713😂😂 all in your feelings like a woman.
@@wbharvey504 how he ain't played pro ball trying to say bron ain't worthy of a discussion that's not feelings that's facts
@@wbharvey504 you ain't played pro ball either so
Lebron formed a super team, Michael Jordan didn't that's one of the biggest difference
The only top 75 players Jordan ever played with were Pippen and Rodman and he got Rodman when he was far past being a top 75 player when he was aged 35-36 when he averaged 5 ppg and a lot of rebounds. Out side of that he had Horace Grant who was a solid player and he played with a bunch of role players.
LeFraud on the other hand played with Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis, Shaq, Dwyane Wade, and Russell Westbrook all are top 75 players and the only one of those guys way past his prime was Shaq. Lets talk about his teammates too.............
Dwyane Wade ages 29-32
Chris Bosh ages 26-29 (averaged 25/12 in TOR)
Kyrie Irving ages 22-25
Kevin Love ages 26-29 (averaged 26-13 in MIN)
Anthony Davis ages 26-30 (so far)
Any every single one of those guys are absolute superstars and were in their prime while all MJ ever had in his prime was Pippen.
@@graham5990 uhm. As much as I agree that MJ hadn't had the help Lebron had:
Rodman was an absolute beast, from 95-98. Rebounds leader from start to finish, and it wasn't even close.
(although I give you that - the seasons before, the gap between him and the second best rebounder was even bigger)
Plus, he had that uncanny "talent" to get inside his opponents' head.
But yeah, the stats clearly show that Lebron had more help.
@@Zett76
At that time rodman was in san antonio the spurs in no way was utilizing rodman's skills it was so bad that during the trade deadline rodman was traded for will perdue.
@@graham5990Ray Allen and Melo weren't way past their prime too? Gtfoh
Edit: Love also was never the same since he left Minnesota.
@@MistaWordz Correct. Like Bosh, Love put up all-star numbers... as the lead option on a weak team. Then both of them (rightly) became the THIRD option behind two significantly better players.
Nobody LeBron played with was comparable to the perennial all-star, All-NBA 1st team and All-Defense 1st team Scottie Pippen. Especially when Pippen was being paid bottom basement salaries (150th 'highest' in the league!?!?).
And Rodman was terrorizing the league by leading it in rebounding many years in a row, while making the all-defense team 8x (with two prior DPOYs) also.
D Wade was in his prime age, but his knees betrayed him as of year two. Anthony Davis had ONE year as a 1st team all-NBA and 1st team all-defense player, but his injuries quickly dropped his play.
Said it before and Ill say it again. Jordan didnt need Pippen. He needed a team. Pippen just happened to be part of it. Jordan was the best player in the world from essentially 87 to 98. Lebron never came close to that.
Are u high man became the best player with Kobe in the league
Pip lead the team in all other categories if he went to Detroit piston win more rings jordan said himself he don’t win without Scottie
🤣. Jordan didn’t just have a team. He had the best team ever assembled with the best GM. The best coach and the best #2 in Scottie Pippen. Even Jordan said Scottie was the 2nd best player in the league according to him. Ya’ll really trying to downplay Bron. Jordan had all the help. Bron didn’t. You can see that in how the bulls made a playoff run without Jordan. Without lebron, Bron’s teams didn’t even make the playoffs. Miami superteam my ash😂😂😂. Goats carry teams 💪. Gtfoh
Best offensive player lebron became the best in the league while Kobe was in the league
Yes by 2007 lebron was arguably the best in the league just had no team did more than Kobe did with no team
because of LeSystem; his teammates always have to sacrifice their game for him, so it takes a while for them to revert when he's off the court.
this is a most excellent point, i never could understand why anyone would willingly want to play with Lebron
@@jameswallace8202 because they make it to the finals with him.
Especially later in his career, like now. Westbrook is a great example he is again flourishing after leaving LeGMs Lakers.
@@IYPITWLwestbrick doing what 🤣🤣stop it
lebron always makes the right play and passes instead of trying to be the hero everytime that's why
The fact that this question is still being asked is even more ridiculous. There's also something to be said about how much easier the eastern conference was for the Heat those years compared to the stacked western conference. The same can not be said of Jordan's era.
The only people who would honestly entertain this idea were either not watching in the 90's or work for Klutch sports.
heat and the cavs.
Cavs went to the finals against 2 teams that were 41-41 then went against a 53 win piston team without dpoy ben wallace. Imagine bron being in the west.
The entire 2010s in the Leastern Conference was LeBron vs... _who???_
Paul George and DeMar Derozan were two of the most formidable stars in the entire conference besides a couple years of D Rose...like wtf are we doing here talking up "Finals Appearances" when there are only 3-5 teams over .500 in the whole conference most seasons?
Logo and Elgin Baylor made like 6 Finals in a row so why doesn't THAT get mentioned in their favor, but for LeBron it's supposed to be super-meaningful?
Right the whole league was watered down anybody don’t see that just bias
Great point!!! its one of the main reasons that Lebron cannot be considered GOAT.. we also can include that his stats are inflatted because of the change of basketball and his scoring ability(which is the most crusial skill in crunch time) is nowhere near Jordans. im explaining ...Jordan scores 33 points in the playoffs but his whole team scores 85-90.. lebron scores 28(one could say its not a big gap) but his team scores 105-110 points. there where games that Jordan scored almost half of his teams points, where lebron scores 25% of his team points. this shows how great the gap is between them as scorers, which is very obvious in 4rth quarter of games, where Jordan usually shined and Lebron faded
WOW ! Food for thought ! I think the answer is obvious . It seems Lebron James presence on a team stunts growth & chemistry .
There was a comment I can’t find now that MJ needed a damn team, not Scottie Pippen. And the notion he “needed” Pippen (and Phil Jackson) to win is maybe the most common and egregious example of regurgitated revisionist history by the LeMedia minions. So much so I decided to basically write a thesis paper on how much evidence there is to the contrary, right here in the comments (and if you read it all, you’ve truly earned my admiration bc ppl hate reading too many sentences at once on the internet) Evidence that gets either twisted or not mentioned at all, even by ppl trying to defend Jordan. Dude won a national championship without Phil or Pippen, he won a gold medal leading a team of amateur college players as an amateur without Phil or Pippen…But the biggest travesty of all is his knee injury 50 games into his comeback on the Wizards which, to me, unofficially ended his career I.e. no longer able to truly be the most valuable player (to any team) in the league. Bc I sincerely believe no player was more valuable to their team than MJ was to the ‘01-‘02 Wizards when he was healthy. He had that team on pace for a top 3 seed in the East, even after starting 2-9 understandably after a 3 year hiatus and still healing cracked ribs and a bum ankle. And that roster he joined was actually even worse than the 19 win record the season prior indicated since they traded prime Juwan Howard, their best player, for “younger talent” 54 games into the season and also lost (then I think traded) Mitch Richmond halfway through the season, who was past his prime at 35yr old but still their 3rd best option giving ‘em 16ppg (Rod Strickland as well tho to a lesser extent productivity-wise). And if not for Rip Hamilton, who was only 23 still 4 years away from making an all-star team and MJ’s best teammate by miles, that ‘01-‘02 Wizards team would be far and away the worst supporting cast of all time with the 3rd option either washed up Christian Laettner or Chris Whitney having his career best season avg 10ppg. The rotation rounded out by Popeye Jones, Hubert Davis, Courtney Alexander, Ty Lou, and Brendan Haywood, all guys who avg less than 10ppg in the prime of their careers and maxed out at 11ppg in their best individual seasons. Now, if it was just “shaking off the rust/getting back into shape” I wouldn’t excuse the poor start but he was doing this while still nursing credibility verified injuries (including Rob Artest who broke his ribs playing pick up ball) and overall point is 39yr old MJ was still as valuable (if not moreso) as any player in the league IF/WHEN he was healthy. So, after the 2-9 start, the Wizards played 36 games (MJ missed 1) before MJ tore his knee vs the Kings. So we’ve only got a sample size of 35 games which a 100% healthy MJ played in his final comeback, which is why it’s very easy to overlook, and even easier to discredit his ability and effectiveness simply by removing context. Bc even tho the sample size is small, when you factor in everything else and look at the results, the athletic deterioration of his increasing age had still not caught up with his increasing skill and experience. The effects of his age were indirect by making him injury prone, thus giving us ‘playing through it’ hobbled MJ for 75% of the games he actually played. Not only hurting his stats, but his value to the team overall. So even tho it’s only 35 games, it’s 35 games where he’s playing with a green Rip Hamilton, the rest of that sub-mediocre roster BUT a 100% healthy MJ. And aside from his MVP caliber statistics during those 35 games (and even if you included the first 11) which is all modern basketball fan cares to look at, the Wizards went 24-11, on pace to win around 47 games and a top seed, but also gaining pace to possibly be a 50 win team. And to add even further evidence to just how devastating and that knee injury was to the final chapter of MJ’s career, during those healthy 35 games he was avg 25ppg shooting 43%, 5.5apg, 6rpg, 1.3stls, .5 blks and only 2.8 T/Os, but in the last 10 games leading up to the injury he was avg *30ppg shooting 47%* 6apg, 6.5rpg, 1.2stls, .3blks and ONLY *1.9 T/Os* and then….*knee FAIL* , so the Wizards play the last 35 games without a healthy MJ and…11-24. So, no, it’s not a lot of games. But when you add to it the fact he was 39, the fact he was following the same pattern as his first retirement, only getting better the more he played, and the fact he was playing with a truly awful roster (worse than those 2000s Cavs teams, I’m a Cavs fan and those teams were yes, offensively limited, but GREAT defensively and not nearly as bad as ppl try to say), and they went 24-11 when he was healthy and slightly less rusty which is a winning % that if extrapolated over an entire season would be a 55-56 win team….ok I think I’ve made my point
Excellent points and post!
Jeez a couple of paragraphs would really help.
Nice
I agree 100% with what you said. The fact is, MJ raised the bar so high even he, at 39+ years old, couldn't reach it. But, he damned well tried. I would rather have MJ at 39 than LeBron at 35. At least MJ was putting out his max effort... on every play. I don't for a minute believe that MJ's Wizard years were a waste. It just proved that MJ cared about the game more than his own personal glory. MJ is truly the greatest to ever play the game. Everyone else is fighting for a distant second place. LeBron? He's lucky to be considered top ten all time.
Oh boy the LeChina stan's are gonna be triggered in the comment's section about this one lol.
"Miami put the ball in it's best player's hands." I didn't realize that they handed it over to Wade.
Bcs,lj cant shoot,and wade can
Wade had to alter his game and learn how to play off ball for Lebron. That's what happens when lebron comes to a team, everyone needs to change their game for him so he can play his.
@@MicroWave233... And guess what Wade did. He watched tapes of Michael Jordan in order to learn how to do so.
Isn't that ironic???
@@ericjordan6059
It is. Wade's goat is Jordan
Who is wearing who's number? Thats simply how you know who the GOAT is.
Lebron ran from adversity and still came up short after a setting the deck. Combine that with him being a weak competitor, calling superstars to team up the meltdown and having less hardware make it’s easy to call mj goat.
Basketball Universe this is why i like your channel. You know your stuff and aren't bias like alot of other TH-camrs are
Trolll
MJ level of winning is way higher than Lebron
Lebron teams underachieved because he made it about him. It is a myth that he makes everyone better.
Jordan shined with his team. He had the right players and system around him; ingredients for championships.
Did he make it about him? When he averages almost 10 assists a game in the playoffs? Yes, he makes all his teammates better with him. How many of those teammates made it back to the finals after he left?
@@dr.lynnjones5634 Like I said, he didn't make them better. He didn't motivate them, push them, elevate them like jordan did, or bring them to new heights individually. He wasn't a leader and thats why no one respects him. "Nobody afraid of Lebron"---Mario Chalmers.
All he did was play with them. Its why he needed to stack the odds in his favor with superteaming. Then Durant followed this formula.
It takes more than just "assists" to make a team better.
@@alfasiger4178 man how can you possibly know this without playing with lebron. secondly, when hes team play well without lbj, haters be saying team are better without lbj, if team played worse without him and haters wud say lbj make the team worse...see the logic here? regardless of the result, haters always got something negative out of it. the hate is crazy.
@@xsova113 If the hate is crazy, then stop hating.
LeQueen fans can’t stop hating.
By pretending there’s a debate for the NBA 🐐 it’s hating not only on MJ, but for the rest of the top 10 as well!
When did LeFlop pass all the legends in the top 10?
Stop hating on the legends by putting LeBronze name in the same sentence!
Hater.
I love how you all leave out the fact that in the 89-90 playoffs, you like to fail to mention that Grant and Pippen went 3 for 17 in a game 7 versus Detroit
Anyone who has eyes can see Jordan is a better athlete, better competitor and most importantly a better LEADER! LaBish has always been a forced superstar on the NBA. His size and athleticism set him apart from the field but he IS NOWHERE near the level of Jordan or Kobe.
Great point!
You snuck Kobe in there? Tricky
Not sure what you mean by "athlete" in the first part of your comment and then referring to LJ athleticism in the 2nd part. I believe you know like i know, Generational advancements have allowed a person like LJ to be a superior athlete over anyone from a generation ago. And that players in general are just more advanced athletically.
This doesnt change the GOAT argument. But i am unsure if you accidentally conflated the athletic ability of them and then divided yourself.
MJ was the most superior athlete of his time as LJ is of his time.
@@dredey1971I don't think LBJ is a superior athlete to MJ, he's just a different type of athlete. MJ had a higher vertical and was faster, LBJ is bigger, stronger and maybe more durable but that's debatable. Everyone talks about generational advancements like there were huge differences in athletic testing scores between the athletes of MJs day and Lebron's day. Have there been advancements, sure, but there wasn't some huge generational gap between the athletes of MJs day and today. I mean, even Wilt Chamberlain would still test out as one of the best athletes in today's game and he was generations before MJ. I'm not saying advancements in sports medicine haven't led to improvements, but tbh they're mostly improvements in areas like longevity, it's not like NBA athletes today are all superior in strength, speed and vertical by any significant margin
@@JustinNDTrollSniper Cogent point, but the data says otherwise.
One got the highest usage rate one player plays without the ball better im a system instead on it be on them all the time playing a three out drive a kick plus playing under different rules.lebron plays in a shooter high screen and role league. Mike play in a real physical man man league position
People act the CBA doesn't exist. The CBA is what controls what teams are superteams or not. The 17-18 warriors and the 14 spurs took advantage of CBA loop holes to create actual super teams.
I don’t call Lebron the goat because he wasn’t there in Kobe funeral, speech nor his statue. I have no respect for a man that takes more L and leave the court and not try his hardest. He always needs a super team with superstar thinking he’s going to win everytime. To me, LeBum can’t take the game seriously.
Another issue with consistency is leadership. If your team falls apart without you then you have a failure in leadership. Seeing a small decrease can be normal as smaller things maybe missed. But if you're team has no identity and underperform without you then you are a failure as a leader.
I play video games so I will use it to explain, LBJ's team, he is the tank and main dps and support, he plays it all, so he just need mainly support player who can also do dps when needed, so when he isn't on the court he mostly collapse due to the team composition, In MJ's cases, he is the main dps, and his team has tank, support and other dps that worked as a complete team, so even when he isn't around that team can still function properly.
"4 titles and 10 finals appearances are all the evidence we need"
Right at the start, you use the "rings don't matter, because of other teammates and the competition" argument.
Here, you just dismiss the fact that Lebron's 10 finals appearances (expect 2020) are based on him playing in the EAST. From that 9 finals appearance seasons - how many other title contenders can you name, from the east?
The eastern conference was the weakest during lefraud 10 finals apperances, that is why he was able to havve 10 final apperances, but during MJ playing days the eastern conference was the stongest. 10 final apprrances and 4 rings is nothing to 6wins and 0 losses. MJ the real GOAT.
@@ghaile7919 to be exact: the 10th finals appearance was in the west.
Other than that: agreed.
Longevity ain’t shit when you load manage, play on superteams, are allowed to accumulate stats by refs and most likely using PEDs.
The longer Bron plays the greater the chances he’ll expose himself. Father Time is undefeated NATURALLY.
I'm gonna help y'all with the goat debate.
1. What athlete of another sport is considered the goat with a losing championship record.
2. If LeBron went 10/10 in the finals he would be the undisputed goat rings matter along with accolades
Bro Tom Brady lost to Eli manning both times in the finals😭🤣 Eli manning is Tom Brady kryptonite
Also this comment holds no validity in a team sport old head.
No no no..stay off this topic..go watch Skap Attack..Lebronze is media mentality overrated..he hadn't passed Kobe smh
Pretty cohesive argument, except I'm not sure why people leave out that the Bulls were 31-30 the year after they won 50+ games (upon MJ's 1st retirement). When a rusty MJ came back they went 17-4--to finish the regular season--before losing to the Magic in the Conference Finals. We know the rest, but that's GOAT s***. He was highly coachable and ACTUALLY made his team better. . . . .because he demanded so much of them.
I agree with your overall premise, just not in the way you tried to say that adding Grant and Pippen for MJ was analogous to Lebron joining Wade and Bosh. No where near a comparable analogy. Two rookies versus seasoned veterans that Lebron joined. One an all star who finished 2nd to LeBron for league MVP. Was already a champion and final's MVP, and Bosh was also a 25+pt/gm all star. It took Grant and Pippen 4 years to actually be good NBA players.
I'll explain why LBJ's teams collapse when he's not on the court. It's pretty simple actually. If you really think about it, making teammates better means teaching them to play with and without you, making them independent. MJ is the one who did that. LBJ makes players dependent of him and that's not making them better, it's actually making them worse. Look at every one who has played with LBJ and compare their statistics to when they played on other teams. They were the best players on their own teams but once they joined LBJ their game got worse. Every parent raises their kids to learn how to live and be independent someday, go live their lives; this is what parents do. Not only MJ made Pippen (Pip would have never been the player he became without MJ) but he also taught other players to play without him, that's why in the year he was out the Bulls did pretty well. They couldn't go all the way because MJ was not there and in order to win you need a winner. Every time LBJ leaves a team they collapse and that's real evidence he doesn't teach them anything. There are hundreds of reasons why he's nowhere near MJ and this is just one of them.
ok and now explain why jordan only won 1 playoff series without pippen
@@m.ahmed.y1723 Jordan's not a team troll
@@m.ahmed.y1723 And would you explain how many can LBJ won without Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love and AD? And to explain, Pippen was a bench player not an all-star player when he joined the Bulls, MJ actually won more playoff series without Pippen's " help ", go figure.
@@nonamewillbegiven1217 then why does his fans claim jordan won 6 titles as opposed to bulls won 6 titles
@@liumatt2874 MJ was horrible without pippen get your facts straight. And kyrie and AD are nowhere near as good as pip
LeBron is chasing great teams..MJ one team one team only!! And come on …rings don’t matter? 😂
When you’re The GOAT, your team becomes The GOAT.
The truth is, those superstar-laden teams will win championships with or without Lebron... he's just the icing on the cake
Wow, that was one of the most impressive breakdowns I have ever heard!!! You eliminated titles, stats and simply used "team impact"! 👏👏👏👏👏
As a 🏀 player, lebron can only thrive in"his" system. Lacks versatility n killer will
ahh, you should AOHF's breakdown of the 2011 finals 4th quarter of game 4.. that breakdown actually showed how awful lebron was and getting torched by terry.. it's a new video so you should watch it.. that was a good point why cleveland lost when lebron was not on the floor and why the bulls still won when MJ left..
You are absolutely right about that video. He does a really great job of braking it down.
First and foremost majority of the greatest teams of all time had core players that played together for an extended period of time and in turn were able to build tremendous team chemistry. Although, some pieces were interchangeable, the centerpiece and core players remained the same. In Lebron’s case jumping from team to team has hurt his legacy as far as never playing on a dynasty / juggernaut.
When you lose and you never shake hands with your opponent it says something about you.
Nice analysis!
btw 1:52 How many steps did LeBron take? and that was even before the implementing gather-step rule. 😂
The difference between Jordan and LeBron is whether or not they embraced the team's tactics like in this video. Jordan was reluctant to embrace the triangle at first, but he eventually did, and as you can see in the video, even as his role diminished, he stuck as a leader around until Pippen and Grant grew into their roles. Phil Jackson once said in an interview that he thought the Bulls would win a championship when Pippen's rebounds and assists were higher than Jordan's, and he was right.
However, the above is for the regular season, and the dependencies on Jordan's individual skill have gone up in the playoffs and Finals, when defenses became more intense and the triangle offense became less available than in the regular season. Phil Jackson also said in an interview after the '98 Finals that they weren't supposed to win it, but Jordan made Bulls won it with his hard carries. Ultimately, Jordan and the Bulls were able to win six championships with the right mix of triangle offense and Jordan's individual performance. FYI when Jordan out, during the first 3-peat Chicago went 1-5, and the second 3-peat Chicago went 0-0 because Jordan didn't miss a single game during 95-96~97-98 (more accurately, he couldn't miss a single game because other teammates were rotating absent out of the game).😂
LeBron, on the other hand, wanted that wherever he went, the team had to fit him. So when LeBron moved from Miami to Cleveland, Chris Bosh even said in an interview that "Kevin Love is going to have a hard time playing with LeBron." This is why he influenced the firing of head coach David Blatt, who didn't fit his style of play, and why LeBron erased the coach's playbook and dictated his own game plan. Erik Spoelstra also would have been fired as coach if Pat Riley hadn't stuck up for him. Of course, when his plan to change a coach of his own liking fell through, LeBron fled back to Cleveland with false letter. 😂
And as an aside, it's pretty obvious why the team's win percentage is so bad when LeBron is gone. Jordan left when the team was at its best, and LeBron left when the team was not at its best. There are significant differences between 9394 Chicago Bulls(where Jordan retired) and 1011 Cleveland Cavaliers (where LeBron left the team)
1. Team Power Ranking before Jordan & Lebron left the team : Chicago was a team that had won three straight championships. Cleveland? Could not won a Single championship, only one Finals appearance.
2. Roster: Chicago lost only Jordan. and most of Chicago's players were in their prime and there were no injuries. The Cavaliers lost Lebron, Shaq, and had injuries.
3. Player reinforcement: Chicago had reinforcements such as Tony Kukoc, while Cleveland was in tanking mode due to the owner's decision to get 1st pick next year.
2014-15 Miami is no different. Wade and Bosh's skills had deteriorated after years of playing to fit in LeBron's system.
And Bosh, in particular, missed half the season due to injury.
MICHAEL JORDAN never had a hall of fame centers like all the others should speak volumes
what hall of fame center did lebron have?
@@m.ahmed.y1723 in that era a great center was important to win a championship, its was part of the game, but lebron championships he had better help he did have CHRIS BOSCH a center In miami also ANTHONY DAVIS plays center the LAKERS allstar and MVP , nothing like that with the bulls while MJ winning championships
@@briandutton939 chris bosh and anthony davis arent as big names as you are making them out to be. They are good but not that much of a help
@@m.ahmed.y1723 what in the hell are you smoking chris bosch is a hall of famer you asked the question and answered it , AD is a mvp player come on !!!!!!
@@m.ahmed.y1723 denial is strong with you LeStan
There's no debate it is funny to me 😅
Nobody compares to Michael
Every single time it got tough for lebron he left his team to join another and team up and repeat the same thing once it got tough there as well.
The whole problem with LeBron is he's been misplaced as a leader of any of the teams that he's played with except his role with the Cavaliers when he won with his team against the Warriors. He's not a Batman, he's a Robin like Pippen was to Jordan. The bigger problem to that is everyone around LeBron and including himself (LeBron) is to blind and stupid to acknowledge this, else his legacy could've had a lot more success. Lebron should've made an effort to reach out to MJ like Kobe did. Kobe admitted that he doesn't win 5 championships without Jordan. Kobe had to learn as well, as did MJ from Phil Jackson and Tex Winter. You can't win on talent alone and there's enough history in the NBA game to prove that.
Same observation as mine. There were instances where he would be quiet during the crucial moments of the game particularly the Finals and his co-star would take over to battle it out.
This 🐐 Debate is over … we are done with LBJ
This would have never been a debate if Kobe was still alive.
Why are the lakers better when Lebron isn’t playing? Oh that’s right they can play 5 on 5 basketball.
you don’t watch basketball dude stfu all you gotta do is look up the +/- on lebron on floor and off and you’ll see how fucking stupid you are
and i bet if lakers are playing worse without lbj you wud say lbj make them worse right? regardless if team play better or worse without lbj, you haters will have something negative to say about it. haters logic.
@@xsova113 typical LeBron fan i see. Speaking facts so I get labeled a hater. Lebron doesn’t play defense half of the time now. There are times he doesn’t even go back on defense. When the offense isn’t for him, he literally stands in the corner like a statue, no movement what so ever. But if you were a basketball fan, not an LBJ fan you, you would see that. Let me guess, he was resting for the playoffs?
@@Mhr6685 first of all. What you just said has nothing to do with what I just said. Secondly. I’m very objective. I still stand by my statement earlier and I also agree Lbj don’t rush back on defence unless it’s either in playoff or really important games so no I ain’t some bronsexual who can’t see that. But I only give him a pass for these recent seasons cus he’s damn near 40.
whats funny now, is that LeFlop's team is now better without him on the fioor 😂. they go on runs when he goes to the bench. completely different offense.
There has never been a debate. Social media is just catering to the kids in the era of the entitled mindset
foolish take . stop it.
Foolish response. Shut up
HIS UNCOACHABLE AND ARROGANT, SELFISH ONLY CARE ABOUT STATS.
The main difference between the 2 is one player was the best offensive and defensive player in the same season while one player was not.
This video was so good you earned a like, sub, and now a comment lmao
Short and to the point. Great video.
Well articulated…
But still…
That’s your opinion…
Everything you said…
Might be accurate…
But that doesn’t mean it’s correct…
I choose JORDAN…
Any day any time…
But please…
Let’s face reality…
Bron is a complete package…
And I don’t even like him…
I just give credit…
Whr credit is due…
In everything you said…
It shows…
You’re a Bron hater…😅😅😅
Is that why Lebron shoots 37 percent outside of 3 feet for his career
What…?😳🤷🏽♂️
Really…?
Please…
What are your criteria for choosing your…
GOAT…?*🐐
Great video, especially from a quantitative stand point! I could also add to this video that based on MJ's competitive mindset alone, his competitive nature channeled to his teammates especially entering the 90s. He held his teammates accountable and that made them even better. So even when MJ is not on the court his teammates had to keep their performances going or else they would have hear from him in practice. Kobe adopted this same style and was also very successful so the numbers and eye test don't even lie.
They say Bron makes his teammates better, but also All-stars turn into minimum guys in his team. Which is it? Make it make sense!
He does lol winning is the goal not numbers fool
You rather more points and lose in the first round ever year lol Chris Bosh would not be in the hall if it wasn't for bron
@@boonebeasley9622 winning is the goal hence 6-0, not 3-6. Troll
lebron ISN'T A TOP 20 PLAYER OF ALL TIME AND COULD BE PROVEN... FACT FACT FACT ... STEROIDS DOESN'T INCLUDE HIM IN THE TOP 50 .. HIS CAREER HAS BEEN MANUFACTURED....BALCO...BALCO ..BALCO AND RIGGED NBA ... USING MAGNETIC TECHNOLOGY IN THE BALL AND RIM ... REMEMBER kobe HAVE 81 POINTS ??? ....
Bro you’re such a joke this is pathetic you know Lebron is your goat sorry ass old head🤣
Lebron actually tried to built a dynasty by short cutting his way, jumping around to join other superstars to have superteams, yet he still failed. MJ and the Bulls on the other hand built a dynasty by elevating homegrown talents without trading for any superstars, doing it the hard way but the right way. Even when they got Rodman, it was a huge gamble that can turn into disaster cuz nobody wanted Rodman due to his antics!
The analogy of the 2 paths is like LBJ took a helicopter to reach the mountain top while MJ climbed up manually, yet able to reach and stay there proud for long. Mean while LBJ got hobbled by winds most often need to go down instead!
i mean winning 2 champs with miami dynasty out of only 4 years is a failure then your just hating.
@@xsova113 winning just 2 is not a dynasty. Winning just 2 after promising more than 7 is a failure. If he didn't talk big like that then 2 out if 4 is fair.
@@paulusrumanouw3176 again..the fact that winning a chip let alone 2 is consider a failure than most players are falilures. When ppl expected him to win chips in miami and he did, then proceeds to win anothe chip for cleveland like he promised and he did, those are for sure a big success, dynasty or not.
@@xsova113 people live by expectations. Live up to expectations or exceed them then you're a success, but coming up short then a failure, that's the reality of life on whatever you do. LBJ should blame himself for talking up big expectations on him. Anyway the topic here is about building a dynasty which he surely failed despite all his actions.
@@paulusrumanouw3176 wait a minute. He came up short? I thought he literally exceeded everyone’s expectations. Nobody expects him to win 4 rings coming into the league and scored over 40k career points, play 21 seasons and still shooting one of the best in his career. He exceeded lot of expectations already. Career wise it’s definitely one of the most successful one. Dynasty wise I don’t know what was the expectations tho I can’t imagine winning 2 are considered failure. At that time I mostly watch Kobe.
Hot take: so far, it is not GOAT debate between MJ vs LBJ.
But 2nd place debate between Kareem vs Lebron
Nice take, and definitely a new way of thinking about it. The LBJ fans often use this as ammo against MJ but its actually a flaw in LBJs legacy.
I wish yall quit talking about the debate. There is no debate Jordan is and always will be
Forever the Goat.
Bron is just and always be a overrated role player. 💯facts
This is the most absurd stuff I've ever heard smh
6 rings! Six!!
That is your only argument!
That is the only argument I need Shaun!!
You made me think of this. 😂😂😂
The top teams of the past eras practiced and had had in-team scrimmages which allowed them to be better prepared for any situation and developed the team chemistry and helping rookie players that didn't start out great like Scottie and Horace to develop into more confident and consistent scorers, starters and in Pippen s case a Hall of Fame induction. The LeBron teams after Miami didn't practice and the media mentioned it regularly during those seasons and Isaiah Thomas said so to the media before and after he was traded from Cleveland.
GOAT = Domination
6/6 vs 4/10
Because of Michael Jordan, more than 20 HoFs could not get a ring. JJ Barea, Jason Terry and the Mavericks got a championship, thanks to lebron James. Can anyone name a goat in any sport who has more final losses than wins?
Well done! One of the best breakdowns I’ve EVER heard. Kudos 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
“Like Mike, try to be like Mike, I wanna be I wanna be like Mike” where my old school fans at? Clap your hands, sing it with me now!
Great video some really really great points that I have never looked at two a degree🎉
Yes, thank you!!! I've been saying for the longest Lebron can't play in a system because he refuses to relinquish any control. His teams lack ball movement, even with his passing ability sometimes its monopolize the ball the whole shock clock then make the pass last second. So some players that need touches and dribble to get going are never truly in a groove with him over the years. Exception is he did allow Austin Reaves to have the ball early Reaves bulrd them out a few times.
The biggest difference between him and Magic who was also the system is Magic releases the ball the minute someone is open or just dump it immediately into Worthy or Kareem and let them work or work off them. Vs with AD lebron can get stingy in the 4th if he doesnt have his stats yet, even if AD had it going the other three quarters.
That was a helluva breakdown! I've been saying the same thing. Lebron Always went to a team that already stars on it and it should be an asterisk by his name lol.
The only way to find out if Lebron surpasses Jordan is if Lebron will play for Chicago and see if he can surpass Jordan's achievements for the team.
being the best player is not all about the finals wins but it's also not about having the better stats, it's a combination of both plus how you impact your team whether you're on the court or not.
If people still come up to you to debate this topic, a wide smile is enough. That sends the message that there's no point continuing the conversation. Don't indulge delusional fans.
You didn’t bring up 94-95 season before Mike came back -they were barely over 500…
(Lost in semi to the Magic)
Took the loss without making excuses like the OTHER 23
Another thing no one mentions is that a good leader leaves an impression on his followers or team even after he is gone so that they can continue to be successful. In this case lebron is not a better leader cause everything crumbles when he is gone. He does not make his team better cause if he did they wouldnt struggle so much without him.
That year when the bulls fell short was the MIGRANE in game 7 correct ? Who was his “so called “ HOF player like LEBRON had in WADE N BOSH.
Mike lost WITHOUT excuses .
"Over Lebrons 4 titles", lol shid he really only has 1 legit one that came in Cleveland, (which I give him strong props for). Other than that, that man has an asterisk on all his chips and especially the plandemic mickey mouse ring.
Dude lost me 3 minutes in 😂 no ones missing anything.....
dude left out the 2013 heat on that "all time great team list" on purpose lmao
So his style of play got him 4 chips and 10 finals appearances that’s pretty crazy considering whole franchises, having them visited that many finals
I can agree and that's the argument that makes him the goat. He had great success despite not having a coach and a system. That's not a issue of play style but lack of having a good organization behind you. Like starting a business, you can plan but you still need great timing and some luck.
LeBron's teams aren't all-time great teams because the were never TEAMS at all. His teams were merely a collection of players following ONE player as though they were the 12 disciples following Jesus. 😆🤣 His teams were not built for TEAM success, they were built for his INDIVIDUAL glory. Great video!
6:03 that means it’s toxic playing with one person you have to change everything you do just to make him comfortable and loose more then u win ! The other u just play your role and good things happen
When you get stripped for the game winning shot in the playoffs by Orlando Woolridge you can't be the goat
whwn you get locked up by 5'10 jj barea you cant be the goat
@@user-tr3kv5xz4b You mean the series the best defensive team in the leagie guarded him 1v5? True but getting hit up for 38 by Rex Chapman has to be worse. Rex never even got to a Finals let alone win one
LeBronze has too many fails. On shaqtin a fool too much. Cries every game. Needs bailed out by teammates. Took many blooper reels 😂
Great insight, than you for that!
Good take. You were incorrect in one area however. The Bulls struggled in 94- 95 which is why Jordan came back. What happened to the bulls in 99 when Jordan retired again? The Bulls struggled again. I believe they were one of the worse. Goat Jordan 4 Life!
Chicago still made 14 straight playoffs from 84/85 to 97/98