The Undead Supportlock - D&D: Optimized #42
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- New to Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft: The Undead Warlock. Let's talk about how to use the subclass in a powerful support build that also does impressive damage!
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/ @dnddeepdive
Math/Graph for this episode: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Sustained DPR Comparisons (3 Tabs): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Character Concept:(0:00)
Level 1:(8:07)
Levels 2-6:(12:41)
Levels 7-9:(34:37)
Levels 10-13:(44:36)
Levels 14-17:(1:03:02)
Final Thoughts:(1:15:27)
Thanks to LudicSavant for the amazing DPR calculator! forums.giantitp.com/showthrea...)
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Errata: I often talk about spells *available* to Undead Warlocks as though they were "free" - I realize that they are simply available to choose and not automatic - sorry for any confusion!
If you have Bane, Bless, and Hex available as your concentration spells, in which situations would you choose to use them and why?
@@TenFires Assess which of the following concerns is most in need of additional influence:
Enemy attack rolls. / Enemy saving throws. [bane]
Enemy AC (/ ally attack rolls). / Enemy save-or-suck abilities (/ ally saves). [bless]
Enemy HP. / Specific enemy ability checks (ie. grapple, perception). [hex]
@@BardedWyrm I was looking for examples of situations or context, not an explanation of mechanics.
The question was aimed at the D4 cast and crew to determine their preferences.
@@TenFires Fighting multiple enemies that are flinging save spells or are harder to hit? Bless. Fighting multiple enemies that are easy to hit but hit hard and need to help with controlling them? Bane. Fighting one big enemy and need some extra damage? Hex. Hex is also good if you're trying to be sneaky as you can give the enemy disadvantage on wisdom checks which means perception checks.
EDIT: Didn't realise the guy before me said the same thing but quicker haha
@@TenFires Right - I suppose if my allies had pretty good survivability (High AC etc.) I'd favor Bless, if they were more "Glass Canons" and/or I had reason to believe the enemy had a very high +to hit, I'd probably go Bane (unless I had reason to suspect a high enemy save), and if there were one or two enemies that *really* needed to die ASAP, I'd go Hex.
I played an inquisitor recently who used zone of truth + command "Confess" to tell me whatever they weren't spilling. Turned out the towns whole council were doppelgangers lol
Oh man I love that combo so much. So flavorful!
Your dm loves you.
Why would you need zone of truth if you used command to make them confess already? Or, why did you use command, if thanks to zone of truth you already know are they telling the truth with their confession?
@@deejay554 i suppose with done of truth they can choose to note talk AND with command they may lie, so its a good combo
@@agustinarguello8463 it's not only that. It's the way how interior of the ships is build, and how you move in them. Also, the belters were known also for the ability to move in 0G with speed, grace and precision. Mate, why walk, when you can fly? Also, the almost never used them boots in books, so why do it in the game, apart from lack of knowledge and imagination?
When you went dragonborn I thought for sure you were gonna say the patron would be a dracolich and your form of dread would include skeletal dragon wings
Warlock is such a thematically strong and frontloaded class that I've always felt like a character with 3 levels of warlock and 17 levels of anything else is still in the clear being called a warlock.
My current character is a 1 cleric / 1 Bard / 1 Warlock and I've called him a Warlock from level 1, which was Cleric.
Level 1 see above [paladin (race)]
Level 2 see above [warlock: undead]
Level 3 @19:44 [warlock 2 (eldritch invocations)]
Level 4 @21:09 [paladin 2]
Level 5 @26:15 [paladin 3 (oath)]
Level 6 @30:32 [paladin 4 (ASI)]
Level 7 see above [paladin 5]
Level 8 @40:10 [paladin 6]
Level 9 @40:59 [paladin 7]
Level 10 see above [warlock 3 (pact boon)]
Level 11 @52:01 [warlock 4 (ASI)]
Level 12 @53:06 [warlock 5 (eldritch invocation)]
Level 13 @1:01:01 [warlock 6]
Level 14 see above [warlock 7 (eldritch invocation)]
Level 15 @1:06:37 [warlock 8 (ASI)]
Level 16 @1:08:21 [warlock 9 (eldritch invocation)]
Level 17 @1:10:59 [warlock 10]
Colby, I took out most of the details this time, but if you want me to stop doing this, please tell me specifically.
I don't mind :)
great work b lynn. appreciate it.
Really appreciate this helps me find what I need next for level ups
I love it thank you!
It's great as a reference document for when you want the growth path fresh but remember from the video or your own opinions on what options to pick within each level.
Pick up Summon Undead or Summon Shadowspawn. The shadowspawn all get a one-use AoE frighten effect. The undead, if you choose a ghost, forces a save vs frightened every time it lands an attack.
Both are very thematically appropriate, imo, and have great synergy with the rest of the build.
i forgot which one but one of the summons also has an option where the summon gets advantage vs. all frightened targets.
They have SOME synergy. The big problem is that the conquest aura does not affect things that are frightened in general, but specifically frightened of **you**. If they are frightened of the ghost or shadowspawn but not of you, then they don't have speed 0, nor do they take the psychic damage.
Not that summons that frighten aren't powerful nor thematically consistent regardless, but it's something to watch out for, especially if you have other party members that can also impose frightened and expect the enemies to freeze. A canny DM will recognize that "of you" and have them sail on by.
The shadowspawn 20ft slow AOE isn't one-use, it's an automatic effect every turn
I wouldn't say this is a go to Command, but we suspected someone of being a doppelganger and I Commanded him to "shape change" so instead of attacking oh his turn he had to shape change. Which both wasted his turn and proved our suspicion.
How did you manage to Command him to shape change when you can only Command one word?
@@geltza7 great question, Shapechange is technically listed as a single word in DnD on many creatures stat blocks. That being said maybe I shouldn't have been able too.
@@kcin3288 I mean it's definitely something to think about and I was genuinely curious! But if my player is going to use their whole action to use Command and use the command word "shapechange" I'd totally allow it under the circumstances you posed. Seems quite a creative use of the spell!
To be fair you could say Transform which is definitely one word and I don't think a being capable of shapeshifting could possibly interpret that any other way.
Gonna need an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer next. Keep that eldritch theme going!
I wonder if Colby could make Elle (Stranger Things) using Aberrant Mind levels?! I envision The Upside Down, Eldritch Horror, and the Far Realm to be interchangeable ;)
Yeah I’d love to see one focused on as much mind control and social manipulation as possible
I’m not feeling the horror/Cthulhu/mindflayer flavor of the aberrant mind. I’d prefer to play as more of a mystical, perhaps superhero-like, mind-based sorcerer.
Aberrant mind/hexblade or aberrant mind/great old one, would both be super thematic
I like the idea of a fathomless warlock/aberrant mind sorcerer mix. The warlock patron could be an aboleth controlling/ influencing from the depths.
On the subject of one word Commands: I once commanded an ancient tree mimic to "Revert!" It just became a tree that we chopped down. Not a super common use but was a fun event.
Cool build! Looking forward to theorycrafting with the new subclass.
Command: Autodefenestrate!
A fear build taking another class? Is that my beloved Oath of Conquest that I sense?
ding!
I’m just diving into warlock for the first time, and realized there is another way to inspire fear regularly. One of the maneuvers for Battle Masters (Fighter) is called Menacing Attack, which could be one of the two maneuvers you grab if you opt for the Martial Adept feat instead of an ability score improvement. Having access to a superiority die that replenishes at the same short rest speed as our spell slots is also a great compliment to our abilities. This essentially gives us 4 uses of Fear per day/long rest (assuming you take just one short rest) between maneuvers and Form of Dread. The extra D6 of damage when you use the maneuver is a nice bonus too, especially if used on a Dhampir Bite for that extra lifegain, or bonus to ability check or attack roll.
My story would be that as a dragonborn paladin I got in over my head in some ruins and fell to a dracolich. Instead of being destroyed the undead dragon offered a pact. Your God Bahamut allows this as a Dorian Gray esq battle for your soul, believing that your pact with the dracolich is the key to its destruction.
love it!
Damn that's a sick bit of backstory brother
@@timuking5762 thanks! I like it too. Anyone's free to use it!
If you want a melee option, you can go warlock 3 and grab shillelagh from tome pact
I am doing this on my variant thanks to this being pointed out. Thank you! Doing Custom Lineage for the aberrant dragonmark to get absorb elements and fey touched later on for that sweet gift of alacrity and misty step.
If you really want to lean into the darker side of this build, do as you said as well as taking Oathbreaker Paladin. Still nets you the AoE fear that Conquest has, but also nets you a less conditional damage boost at 7th level (but requires melee)
@@rodneydavis9172 I made a whacky Fighter 1 / Undead Warlock X version with Booming Blade Shillelagh, War Caster and Variant Human/Lineage Fey Touched for Bless :D Also could dip into Peace Cleric for more lvl 1 spell slots and another 1d4 to important attacks and saves on my allies. Give me like 2-3 hours in the morning and the entire party has Death Ward, one of us has a second Death Ward from Gift of the Protectors and i get a third Death Ward with the level 10 feature.
Oh cool. I thought about Shillilagh for a theorycraft the other day before remembering if I got it off Magic Initiate it would still reference Wis and that was for an Int caster but I'm assuming the Pact gets around that?
@@Ichorizor the main draw of taking paladin levels is that conquest paladins aura amplifies the effectiveness of your fear effects though.
Darn it Colby! I had my character build set, but now you come up with this amazing creation.
Anither great one. Thanks man! Greating editing as well Mr. Rogers! I loved the extra sound effects.
You could be the paladin and have a pact with the Egyptian god Osiris, he is kind of an undead and he is a good guy (the forgotten realms wiki lists him as lawful good)
My favorite Command is “Defenestrate!” 😁
Careful! Make it "autodefenestrate" or else the creature could throw someone else out!
@@KCSutherland Thank you. I dodged a bullet on that one. Phew! 😅
All the dms i have just come up with reasons not to let me do it.
One said they'd need high enough int to know what defenstrate means..
Another says they cant do things that would cause self harm.
Another says hes only going to let us use the list provided in the text.. your dms sound way more fun
@@thebatman6201 I know. I was just trying to be funny. My sense of humor is a little off. 😊
If I were to make a build for Talion from Shadow of Mordor/War then this would probably be how I would do it, albeit maybe not the exact same level distribution. This also narratively offers a way to reconcile the Paladin vs Undead themes in a way that many DMs would find understandable and palatable.
i think DMs struggle with this combination because they are limited by old flavor constraints of the class. in 5e, the paladin just upholds tenets of an oath. they are sworn to ideals/philosophies/principles. not a god. if a god aligns with those principles, they might worship them too but they are more tied to those ideals (like an assassin who likes to kill while also worshipping the raven queen). looking at the paladin who strongly adheres to its oath instead of a god then makes it easier to pick up an undead patron as it's god whose philosophies will most likely align with some of the conquest paladin's oaths.
another route is the undead warlock/conquest paladin is simply you own unique class that gets martial/divine/eldritch powers from an undead patron that subscribes to the same philosophies of a conquest paladin.
Wrathful Smite needs a Wisdom *Check* to recover from, and the Frightened Condition causes Disadvantage on Ability Checks.
Combine this with a Maul, Divine Smite, Booming Blade, the Crusher feat, Conquest Paladin’s 7th Level feature, and some Undead Warlock. BOOM! 💥
I will probably skip booming blade for dragon fear since i can skip one attack for roar thanks for fizban.
Ability checks aren't saving throws though, so it wouldn't work that way right?
*edit* nvm, read it over again, see that it requires a check after the first save.
I was waiting for you to do something with this subclass, cool!
Best "Command" was "Betray" causing the orc captain's armored Ogre bodyguard to attack and kill him in one shot before the rest of the clan avenged the captain's death.
Ooooh that is saucy!
That kind of borderline "mindcontrol" is a very generous interpretation of the rules by your DM and makes those kinds of spells incredibly powerful. I'm personally not a fan of interpreting them like that because it creates such huge imbalance with other low level spells, but it makes for badass moments, for sure.
I think betray is one of those 'on the edge' words. It's very open to interpretation, but that can be cool and fun.
Like so many other spells in dnd it can either create awesome moments... or feelsbad. As long as the party and DM want the same sort of game (session 0 or equivalent) it's great. Other side of the coin, it's a 1st level spell and if magic can do everything it becomes horrible playing non-magic classes.
This is such a fun build, probably gonna make this into a BBEG for my campaign.
fun words for command? i heard this story on a TH-cam a long while back about someone using command defenestrate (the act of jumping out of a window). rules as written i doubt it can be used because of the "cant be directly harmful to the target" clause.
i once used command "Throw" on a troll that was carrying an unconscious ally to get the troll to let go and to maybe get my ally out of reach from the troll (we had multiple PC's with healing)
Did they take damage when they landed? :)
Once used "Sign" on a law officer that was under a geas spell to get him to sign some documents that would release him from said geas.
"Betray" is a fun one, although they always make the save when I try LOL. Maybe try "Forfeit" in an honor-duel situation or "Vomit" when that's appropriate (or something similar, if that's considered harmful).
"Explain" is a good one for interrogations.
Once used "Incinerate" to get some guy to start a building fire whilst his compatriots were distracted.
I wonder what would happen if you told someone to "Forget?"
@@life-destiny1196 some good ones! Forget ... hmm... I can see a DM making them forget what they were doing and maybe lose a turn?
@@DnDDeepDive they did but was brought back up the turn after mine :)
I think with defenestrate if you have to explain what it means it's very unlikely the enemy (unless well read) would understand it. (It is cool in those niche situations though).
Throw is a good one, but more often than not results in something thrown at my characters head...
As for commands I enjoy Grovel, Flee, Dance, confess, disrobe(non-cringe uses only please), prostrate, and depending upon the situation swim.
I'm not sure how you can suggest 'disrobe' and think there are any non-cringe uses for it.
Also isn't Prostrate the same as Grovel? Or do you just like having different flavour?
I do kinda like swim though, especially if they're on dry land. x'D
@@slaycg2536 I've seen it used to help get access to dress the wounds of a reluctant fighter before. I've also seen it used to get an enemy out of armor.
Best one word command I've seen is "Forgive", Credit to Dansgaming playing the character Ramus Krill on RollPlay's "Court of Swords"
Not sure how effective that would be given it only lasts for one round. Expecting an ongoing effect is getting into the territory of Suggestion.
If you are super strict as written then yeah not super effective. If you are into roleplaying and the rule of cool it opens the door to plenty of fun things.
Reeeeee
@@lordhawkeye I'm very much into roleplay and the rule of cool. Stepping on a higher level spell - in this case it's both suggestion and also working as a charm person type effect without repercussion - seems hugely powerful for a first level spell.
I'm more into using it in social situations - especially with subtle spell - for sabotaging competitors - vomiting or wetting ones self during a state function can ruin a competitors chances, as can simply laughing, insulting or babbling at an inopportune time.
@@VileScarMind fair point. It was very story based in the example I'm thinking of. Regardless I think it could have many interesting outcomes
'Pact of Strahd' may rub the Paladin the wrong way... xD
Great build, great show as always but a couple of points; RAW Warlocks don't get free spells, they just get spells added to the list from which they can choose. I personally don't run it that way at my table, I treat them as bonus spells. Also, I think diversifying your methods of control would help at higher levels. A lot of high CR creatures are immune to fear, and charm for that matter so specialist builds like this can become less potent. Banishment is great on a Warlock, extra targets, Hunger of Hadar good too. Picking fear options all the way can make you way less effective against certain enemies. Still got those Smites for Undead and Fiends though, so still a good build.
Thanks Tom! (And see the pinned comment at the top! :P )
I have to say, this video comes at a great time, as one of my online campaigns suffered some technical issues that resulted in the soft restart of our campaign. Characters need to be similar to what they were before, but with mild revisions. Since I first built with the UA version of the patron, this is a great opportunity to revisit my build!
I was intrigued by the video name, but did not expect to enjoy this build as much as I did! I really want to play it this!
So you are a sort of magicly dragonlike Batman? Sounds great. Thank you for the Video Colby.
Winter Eladrin pops into existence in front of an enemy, chance to frighten, swings at an enemy, chance to frighten. Thought this was a cool combo if anyone disagrees suggest a change It'll make it more fun hopefully.
Such a cool build! I wish I thought of it during character creation (then again VRGR wasn't a thing yet back then). Currently playing a level 13 Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin and loving it. Keep up the good content!
2x speed club!!!!!!! Great build as always buddy.
I do the same with pluralsight - surprised I have'nt done it with YT yet!
I love the Command spell! Our level 7 party had an encounter with a purple worm and our Druid was swallowed by it. I then used Command saying ‘Puke’ and it spat her out on its turn. Then used Banishment and ran away!
Love the t-shirt!
The one and only problem I see with this build is that Grasp of Hadar is only usable on one attack per turn whereas Repelling Blast can be used with every attack that hits, so you're potentially giving up a lot of battlefield control capacity by surrendering Repelling Blast for it. I think I would wait for my third invocation before taking Grasp of Hadar and delay the other invocations.
I was very upset when i discovered this for my build, which was more melee focused - same is true for Lance of Lethargy
Lightning Lure as a cantrip could *almost* get you the Grasp of Hadar level of pull control into your aura. It just doesn’t scale as well as Eldritch Blast does or give you the versatility of multiple targets….
Really starting to love the Undead warlock subclass. So many combinations of multi class options with this. Even just a 2 level dip for form of dread and repelling blast can make a huge difference in maintaining battlefield control.
Heeeey, nice one, I was waiting for this! Would realy like to see your take on the college of spirits bard! I know, not optimal, but I would love to see how you would build it!
On the list!
yes! Undead Warlock let's go!!!
Aberrant Mind build would be awesome. I would be interested to see which spells you pick to replace the ones given in the book.
I'd love to see a set of deep dives into each character (one idea of how to structure this would be a starter video of the common parts of the class, then a separate video for 1-2 subclasses each with some ideas of what spells work well for the subclass and how the subclass features integrate with the core features, idk there's a lot of content to cover haha) totally get if that feels like too much work but I think it'd be super interesting to get that insight from the d4 team (especially with the new channel name!)
I like this build! I think in these support types there's a lot more wiggle room, but that just means it's more fun to see what you chose that I wouldn't. Some choices aren't what I think sounds the most 'neat', but I do love this draconic version!
I think I'd probably try to make this a melee if I went with it, though I agree that would leave behind some support for more beefcake and sadly more MAD. In that version I'd either dip paladin just for the proficiencies and maybe smites or dip warlock just for the fear and maybe two invocations.
I think my favorite undead being would be a snarky know it all who just wants to learn more to share all immortal knowledge with mortals to spite the gods.
Baelnorn sound like a good option for non-evil Undead patrons.
Really love the build :D
I will also play a Undead Warlock in my next campaign but kind of differnt. Wanted to go Hexblade first but my DM talked me into Undead. He will be a Tabaxi who was andopted into a family that made a pact with a demon. The demon and his weapon, which posseses his powers (a greatsword), get passed down the family and lastly to my Tabaxi. As hes not a human (like the family) the demon cant coop with his body and tries to take control over his body. So my Tabaxi made a contract with a Lich Queen to get the demon out of his body.
Talked to my DM and there will be random trigger points where my inner demon takes over and will act randomly.
Sounds awesome!
I love this interesting ranged take on the fear-monger. I've done a similar one going Conquest Paladin 19/Hexblade 1. I did this so CHA powers my melee attacks and spells, as I think this build loves being more in the thick of it. I was a Dragonborn with Dragon Fear as well, although going Fallen Aasimar could work too. Although the new UA dealing with Dragonborn makes this so much better, as you could fear breath weapon with one attack and then smite their face off with the other.
Alternate name for this build: the Dreadlock lol. Love the channel btw! You're one of my new favorites ❤
Missed opportunity! :) Thanks and welcome!
Divine Smite won't feel like it's wasted the first time you go all out with it on an Opportunity Attack
28:38 About Command:
A cool RP spell combo is Zone of Truth+Command
Once a bad guy fails against Zone of Truth, as per the spell, the affected can either speak the truth or remain silent, so with the use of Command with the word "Answer!" is a sure fire way to get some clues out of someone who you might want to interrogate :3
i tried "Speak!" once, and the clever jerk of my DM made the person speak about what they had for breakfast rather than adress what was asked, seeing as "Speak!" is too vague...so i found that "Answer!" has no loophole, they have to speak and it has to be specificly adressing the question you just made.
I'm playing a support warlock right now!
...Well, it's a Warlock/Sorcerer multiclass, but still.
(Undead warlock for fear procs and celestial sorcerer for healing and such)
Specifically, a Lizardfolk (not quite dragonborn) who's village in the swamp worships a massive mysterious bone pile, by collecting bones of powerful foes from across the land to offer into it.
I'm also planning to play a Paladin/Undead Warlock dragonborn that I've had ready to go for a campaign for a long while now. Stumbling on this video helps solidify my choices lol
Excellent Video! Was looking for something like this. Have a high level character that is being wished backed and returning as an Undead Warlock. Made a Dex dual wielder version based off your video.
Nice!
Woah! What a cool video!! Thanks. supportlock all the wayy
My favourite Command word is Acquiesce; primary use case is in social situations as a contingency if the face low rolls a Persuasion check for example. The handy thing compared to other spell assists is that it's retroactive and has no fail case(ie the target isn't said to be aware of a spell affecting them if it fails, they'll just assume you were trying to persuade them verbally).
in terms of quantifying a support build, you could look at it in terms of action economy.
actions cancelled per round, actions granted per round, and so on.
if you're letting allies roll with advantage, that's effectively +15% action per round. (it averages to a +3 or so, so they're getting an extra 15% of their action)
if you're forcing enemies to roll with disadvantage, that's effectively -15% action per round for enemies.
bane averages to a -2.5, so for one enemy, that's a -12.5% of an action to enemies per round.
if we cancel an attack fully, from incap of some type, that's -100% of an action.
limiting movement is a little harder to quantify, but if we allow them to AoO, but don't let them take attacks after that point, then the duration of the stun - 1 round is basically our quantified amount.
Another awesome build! I am wondering if you have already made a Genie build Colby. I would definitely love to see what creative builds you make!
Thanks! Hmmm... I've dipped Genie a few times but never gone very deep into Warlock as a Genie. I don't think...
I may be building a character like this as a Fallen Aasimar for their racial fear instead of Dragonborn. Also helps add flavor to the story around divinity. Downsides are a smaller radius fear with a save, but it does free up the feat used for the dragon roar.
my plan for an Undead warlock was a villager that got dared to go into some local ruin or whatnot by his buddies, meeting the spirit haunting it and going "Damn, you really live like this?" and either offering to get the ghost out of there or fixing up the ruin a bit. The ghost in turn is the spirit of either a king/noble/high level official of a by-gone empire who may or may not be obsessed with restoring it to it's former glory, but definitely looks at the current political situation of any given place and has opinions about whether it's well run or not. "Yeah, this bureaurcrat is definitely embezzling." "What? That local noble can't do that, these guys are freemen, not slaves. You should go to his liege lord." "Y'know, the empire had options for when the first-born son is dumb as a doornail. None of this strict primogeniture shit." Seeing this build start with a paladin is interesting though- an oath of redemption paladin would be perfect for a character who tries to talk to the ghost before exorcizing it.
Love it!
Great build! Big fan of the Undead Warlock. I'm building an Undead Warlock who (after level 2) turns against his patron and harnesses his new innate spellcasting power to become a Divine Soul Sorcerer just to spit in his patrons face so to speak. Took Custom Lineage and grabbed Moderately Armored, so 18 AC with eventual 2x EB plus Spiritual Weapon and eventually Spirit Guardians. Mainly you could do this build with Warlock I suppose, but the frightening is a nice added flavor.
COMMAND: pirouette
37:00 Literally all of your questions here are answered in the PHB or DMG, read the rules on mounted combat :P tl:dr - you can choose whether to have a controlled or uncontrolled mount in combat, 1 shares your initiative and gives you its move speed but doesn't take independent actions. The other has its own initiative, can follow your directions, moves on its own initiative count, but means you can't do some coordinated actions you might otherwise think you could because you aren't sharing the initiative count.
I think there is a *lot* of wiggle room, tbh. Fully aware of the Mounted Combat rules. Even Jeremy Crawford seems to sometimes get a little squeamish about RAW when it comes to various aspects of Mounted Combat and even Find Steed, but I'm happy that your table finds it pretty cut and dry. I wish mine did! :P
@@DnDDeepDive They are overly complex, lol, but I think they get most confusing for people because the way people use familiars, summoned creatures, etc. etc. tend to get homebrewed or handwaived and muddy the waters. As long as it works for whatever table however they figure it out and everyone is happy, good on them.
i think one of the reasons some tables struggle with this is that DMs want to turn find steed into a normal warhorse when it's meant to function as s summoned creature that you can mount.
imo, WOTC should've just made it less confusing and just worded it as it's always an independent mount, that shares your initiative (this isn't on the spell and a feature the beastmaster's primal companion) and follows your commands. that would make it clear, solve initiative clutter and make the player happy (as i believe this is what every find steed caster wants out of the their find steed).
@@TheRobversion1 agree that wotc should have clear rules on summoned creatures. In my mind it needs to take account of game balance, style and resource cost.
The standard rules for mounts try to balance extra attacks/actions of independent mounts by making it clear they might do unwanted actions and act on a different initiative. The natural concern with summoned mounts is you are getting too much if they are considered independent for actions but controlled and do exactly as you want with no opportunity cost (action to control, change of acting independently, not needing concentration).
Familiars and find (greater)steed are difficult to balance as they don't need concentration, so break one of the big limiting factors of 5e spells. Very hard to balance well...
Paladin: "I cast command"
DM: "Ok, what do you say"
Paladin: "Undress!"
BUILD REQUEST: Hello! You mentioned a melee type build for this. I made my own, but I am not very good at optimization, but I used the damage calculator and it came out to more sustained dps than the build in this video. Can you please make maybe a short even about the melee build?
Paladin 2, Undead Warlock 1, Conquest paladin to level 7 (I went to 9 bc my party doesn't have a cleric to cast revivify) etc..
For Bonus Action sequence I went either Form of Dread or Spirit Shroud First depending on if I want Fear or Damage, then always Spiritual Weapon 3rd.
For Action, I would Use the 2 attacks from paladin if in range, then I could choose to use the Channel Divinity as needed for the action.
I love you, you are awesome! Have a good day.
I made a Dhampir Rune Knight grappler/unarmed fighter with some Undead Warlock dip. Many people said to me make her Paladin, since she is a Knight, but I refused to mix Paladin in it.
She can do good damage by adding the growing from RN, Hex and a d8 from her BG (knight of solamnia).
She can heal herself with the Dhampir bite and have "rounds" of thp with Undead feature and next levels will gain the resistence from RN.
Her grabbing can cause fear, that hinders enemies in multiples ways and the spider climb can do some craziness in this.
Players like her and fear when she gets mind-controled. The feat from the BG that gives an extra d8 allows auto-advantage, so the fear of crit exists as 3 dies of damage can turn into 6 and a grapple and result in fear.
Not a super strong char, but I like her a lot and the people that I played with seemed impressed, which made me proud because it was my first char made thinking in mechanics as much as concept. She is a "bear shifter" from original race.
With Form of Dread I like the idea of pulling enemies towards me with eldritch blast better than pushing them away.
FoD is hopefully already going to be causing them to run away. And if you pull them to you and they then run away, you could trigger attacks of opportunity.
The paladin I've built for my next game combines some aspects of two of your builds. Taking the fear and reliable ranged capability of this build with the ability to smite decently hard if I find myself in melee.
Red dragon born, taking dragon fear and shield master feats.
7 levels of conquest paladin, (for armour and weapons, smite, auras etc) 2 levels of undead warlock (for form of dread and enhanced eldritch blast) and all remaining levels sunk into whispers bard (for psychic blades bonus to smited crits as well as intimidation expertise, and extra slots for critting).
He calls out the biggest bad guy in combat and uses grasp of hadar eldritch blast to drag them into a fight, whether they want to or not, inflicts frightened on them and when they're close enough, max that smite to kill them quickly, ideally breaking the morale of his other foes, who he will clean up with impunity.
My current build seems to be a hybrid of this and the Kaladin build. Went to Levistus Tiefling for the race though instead of Dragonborn, and took Infernal Constitution - giving her Fire, Poison, and Cold resistance. She started the first 9 levels as Conquest Paladin (rolled well on stats, so I wasn't going to dip and didn't need to cheese dip Hexblade and PLANNED on staying paladin - BUT adventures happen). Ray of Frost was a great range cantrip to have for a class with none and a free armor of Agathys is solid. AoA is also great to help buff your mount as any spell with a target of Self can also apply to your mount. She also uses the cursed shield of missile attraction (great for Kaladin similarity and to protect her mount and allies from missile attacks).
The undead was still UA, and we skinned the subclass as The Tempest with a Stormfather type patron, and Form of Dread became Storm Form. Getting level 3 spells of Fear was great before multiclassing as well as all of the HP, second attack, and Paladin aura and conquest aura. When invocations came online at level 11, it was a joy to also get 3 blasts when needed and took grasp of Hadar and debated repelling and lethargy. Ultimately, read the fine print as you can use repelling blast for all 3 attacks but only once for Hadar/Lethargy :(
Currently, level 12 and went pact of the chain for an imp skinned as a wind spren. She has been a powerful character - especially can lock down a choke point, battlefield control, and dish out burst damage. Now with an invisible spy with hands, she has a lot of out-of-combat utility going on as well. Granted my build was melee-focused with range utility and my level progression reflected that focus.
I very much considered dragonborn but ultimately thought dragon fear inferior to conquering presence, wrathful smite, and attacks with form of dread - since she was locking down opponents and didn't want to worry about attacks giving chances to drop fear.
24:14 another bonus besides not needing Warcaster is that the shield+spell combo looks cool :D
For commands I think the idea of combining a bunch of affixes into a hyperspecific word is really funny, but the only one I can think of right now is "autodefenestrate" ("throw yourself out a window") which doesn't work because it's an obviously harmful action. Or when it does work at a ground floor, the enemy will just come back the next turn. I guess it takes some movement away from them, but there's better ways to do that.
"Stop" is also a good one if you have a warhammer :P
Sliding into DMs topic - underrated items for builds. Can you imagine how much fun you would have with this build with a set of Pipes of Haunting? Concentrationless AOE no friendly fire Fear with a DC 15 save. And I don't recall, I don't think they require attunement, so you could even give them to your quasit to blow. Teaching it how to play an instrument could be an interesting RP experience all on its own lol.
Quick thought about the 6th level feature Grave Touched.
It is absolutely not RAI but, RAW the bit about changing damage to necrotic once per turn and the bit about adding an extra die when you deal necrotic damage while in Form of Dread are completely separate sentences. The extra die does not say it's limited to once per turn or to the damage that was converted to necrotic, just that you can add an extra die when determining necrotic damage an enemy takes.
One could argue all that Spirit Shroud damage gets an extra die, that a Death Cleric could Toll the Dead 2 targets and add an extra die to both, that a Scribe Wizard could cast Magic Missile as an 8th level spell, convert it to necrotic damage, and an extra die to every Missile.
Definitely not intended, but maybe possible?
Yup. it isnt once per turn. You can choose to convert all dmg rolls to necrotic as long as they come from attacks.
Same with the extra die. Every time you roll for necrotic dmg from this (which comes from an attack) you add an extra dmg die of your choosing.
Spirit shroud itself doest add a dmg die but the attack you make that hits and add spirit shroud dmg to does.
The scribe wiz magic missile combo works for this too but the highest level you can cast it would be 7th and not 8th as you'd have to be 15 scribe + 6 undead to the 8th level version which isnt possible.
Toll the dead combo works. It is very powerful and RAW. However, It is also a valid RAW reading that this only applies to attacks so the toll the dead combo or magic missile combo may not work. However, an upcasted scorching ray isnt open to interpretation. Nor is eldritch blast or martial attacks with extra attack + dread ambusher + action surge.
Possible, but I think would require a *very* lenient DM :).
@@DnDDeepDive how so colby? Wording doesnt include once per turn.. the only limiters is if you hit with an attack (for necrotic dmg conversion)
and when you deal necrotic dmg (extra dmg die).
Only vague thing i see here is whether the extra dmg die is only for attacks that you converted to necrotic or including spells that do necrotic.
It is indeed a powerful subclass though and might be excluded in alot of tables just like the echo knight and other non-core 3 subclasses.
@@TheRobversion1 Because I am 100% confident that the *vast* majority of DMs would read that passage or hear your argument and say: "When they said '*the* necrotic damage the target takes' they meant '*that once during each of your turns necrotic damage and not all necrotic damage that you deal*'" I might be wrong, but I know what the ruling would be at *our* table.
@@DnDDeepDive hmm... I really wish wotc would be clearer with their wordings. Anyway might be a good sliding into my dms topic. My own DM and a couple of others i know are already ruling it as a when hit with an attack effect similar to spirit shroud, hex, hunters mark, etc.
Either way ruling at tables always take precedence, i'm (and the original commenter) just talking about what's RAW and what could be a valid interpretation of it.
To quantify support class you could do "Enemy DPR below expected" for both an encounter with multiple foes, and an encounter with one big bad. Standardize the attacks the same way you do with your DPR calculations (vs 10 ac, vs 17 ac). Calculate the dpr output the enemy group would have over 4 rounds of combat, then apply the control methods used by the class you've built and see how that dpr changes. % chance of each enemy to be controlled by your DC, effective dpr reduction that control causes, how long will the control last. Make it ideal situation, like your dpr calcs.
Getting a chance to do a Gestalt rule game and this is the combo I'm doing :) Love the Conquest Paladin + Undead Warlock flavor and mechanics.
I think an interesting set of builds would be the base non-cross class amount of damage for each class, so you can see how much stronger the optimized builds are... Like a tier 3 level of non-cross-class characters
With the Undying Servitude invocation, Oathbreaker could be a fun Oath. Gather your friends with those refreshing reanimations, channel your divinity to control a wraith to create specters floating among your zombie hoards and become a lich king :D
Might just be a numbers nerd, but I'd love a video (maybe even a series?) comparing different quantitative methods. Seems like different people use different calcs for DPR. Tank calcs are always fun. Support calcs are tricky, but still curious to hear more.
To bad the new Dragonborn hasn't made it out of UA yet.. IMO they would improve the build
Fizban's Treasury dragons introduced a few options to make this better in both RP and mechanics. Fizban's dragonborn is simply better.
For RP there's the hollow dragon which is an undead metallic dragon which decides to stay after death for some goal.
Always a good time.
Hey Colby! I really like your videos, they all seem like pretty fun builds to play some day! I've noticed that you use a lot of Find Familiar, and now with the Pact of the Chain Warlock, I was wondering if you have any idea or build on how to maximize the survivability of a Familiar!
(I'm playing a warlock with a pseudodragon and the investment of the chain master)
Keep making amazing vids!
Thanks! The best way, I think, would be via buff spells like Aid, Shield of Faith, etc. Some would argue that you could equip them with armor/barding, but I don't think all DMs would be willing to allow that. Interception Fighting Style and debuffing your enemies can help as well!
@@DnDDeepDive Hey, thank you so much! I didn't consider the barding option, and spells seems like a safe way to go! I was looking also, and I think you could attune tattoos to your familiar, but they end up using 1 attunement slot for yourself. Barrier Tattoo seems like a good option if I ever get my hands on that!
Here's a Sliding into my DMs question that came up last night and is relevant, I think, to the build you're discussing in this episode. When you're playing on a grid, what does "away from you" mean? Repelling blast says "away from you in a straight line." Pushing attack says "you push the target up to 15 feet away from you." (The Fear spell says "move away from you" but also allows the targets to chose the "safest route" so probably not an applicable to issue I'm going after.)
BM Fighter with PAM is standing on the edge of a cliff. Directly west of him is the bad guy. Bad guy moves towards the fighter. Fighter gets opportunity attack when bad guy enters his reach. Fighter adds Pushing Attack to the opportunity attack and the bad guy fails his save. Can the fighter Push the bad guy anywhere in a westward-facing cone (and so throw the bad guy off the cliff)? Is the Push limited (strictly) to the bad guy's approach vector, that is, the bad guy has to go back (towards) where he started? OR, is it only the 4 (or 8?) cardinal directions?
Will put it on the list of questions!
"Away from you"" works exactly how you think it would. It sends them away... from you. On a grid you have a character standing west of your PC and you shove them, they go west. If your table uses diagonal lines, doing this to a character northwest of you would send them to the tile northwest of them. Its always a straight line originating from the acting character unless specified otherwise.
@@larstollefsen1236 agreed. you'd need an effect that would move them in any direction horizontally to move them to the cliff or anywhere else.
-------------
Y. X
Line is the cliff, y is enemy, x is fighter.
---------
YX
Enemy moves up to fighter
----------
Y
X
Fighter moves so now push attack sends enemy off cliff.
@Lars Tollefsen and @Rob Vera. Interesting interpretation. Can you provide a page number in the rules that says this is the RAW (or RAI) interpretation? West, Northwest, and Southwest are all "away" from my character, particularly with 5e's non-Euclidian geometry. Note that the effects don't push the target "back" they push "away" (indicating that the path the target used to move into my reach is irrelevant).
When a character has a 5-foot reach, maybe it's more clear, but with a 10-foot reach, there are lots more vectors in play. However, even with a 5-foot reach, the ray-tracing exercise shown at the bottom of DMG p. 250 for determining cover and the line-of-site rules on p. 251 indicate that your attack can originate from different parts of your character's square and hit different parts of the target's space(s) -- which would create lots of different "away" vectors, some of which are shown on DMG p. 250.
@unnefer001 If X is instead one space south of the location you depict, and the enemy Y moves straight east, when X Pushes Y, does Y move "back" straight west, or does Y go Northwest(erly)?
That shirt brings out the color in your eyes. Just a compliment; 'tis all.
I would’ve recommended Leonin for this build because of thier bonus action fear effect, Or fallen aasimar for fear and damage.
Also if anybody really wants to use your smites and extra attacks but not sacrifice your spell save dc, then at any point in the build you could take a third level warlock and take pact of the tomb and pick up shillelagh! Forewarning you there are a couple levels where eldritch blast is still more effective.
I considered both, but the Aasimar once per day, smaller range, and potential to affect allies gave me pause, and Leonin 10 foot range plus a DC based on Con made me feel like Dragonborn was still our best option...
i like the application of dragon fear. That's definitely the use for it. Although i would definitely get CBM; i think it is a must with this build, which uses ranged attacks while also trying to keep a bunch of enemies at a 10 ft range.
Gunner would likely be preferable - providing the same benefit to non-[weapon] ranged attacks, while also increasing dex by 1.
@@BardedWyrm i think that RAW, unfortunately gunner is only for guns, not all ranged attacks
@@chopcooey Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. The text as I read it includes no such restriction.
@@chopcooey barded wyrm is right. RAW it works for anything. just like crossbow expert.
@@TheRobversion1 @Barded Wyrm yeah, all things considered i think you guys are right. The phrasing sort of make it seem that the bonuses apply only when wielding a firearm. But then +1 dex only when wielding a firearm would make absolutely no sense
Could use an Archlich as a patron. They are Good and Undead if your DM / party has issues with an evil patron.
Favorite one word command is "Sleep". Most rule it as a round of sleeping which lets you get crits off on em
You should really put the basic progression in the description (or read mine below), having to find the relevant part of the video is annoying when I have to figure out what the next level is. The Time Stamps being things like 2-6 doesn't help if I need to find what level 4 is. Easy way is to just stamp every level.
Level 1 (8:07) Paladin 1
Level 2 (12:41) Warlock 1 Undying
Level 3 (19:48) Warlock 2 Agonizing/Repelling Blast
Level 4 (22:00) Paladin 2
Level 5 (26:16) Paladin 3 Conquest
Level 6 (30:34) Paladin 4 Feat: Dragon Fear
Level 7 (34:37) Paladin 5
Level 8 (40:12) Paladin 6
Level 9 (41:05) Paladin 7
Level 10 (44:36) Warlock 3 Repelling Blast -> Grasp of Hadar / Chain Pact
Level 11 (52:25) Warlock 4 +2 Cha
Level 12 (53:08) Warlock 5 Investment of Chain Master
Level 13 (1:01:06) Warlock 6
Level 14 (1:03:02) Warlock 7 Lance of Lethargy
Level 15 (1:06:43) Warlock 8 +2 Con or Telekinetic
Level 16 (1:08:23) Warlock 9 Repelling Blast
Level 17 (1:11:02) Warlock 10
I don't know if it was accounted for in your damage reports, and it's not a huge deal, but the warhorse actually benefits from Spirit Shroud if you cast it when mounted, so an extra 1d8 (or 2d8 if you go all out) on each of its attacks !!
Good point!
Nice catch. Share spells!
I too love the half-feats.
ditto. most of my builds run custom lineage and pick a half feat at level 1 to hit 18 in my main stat. my faves are crusher, piercer, feytouched: dissonant whispers and telekinetic.
I call it the Quasi-Imp. 😈
I *love* this build so far!
I really hope you mention using Flock of Familiars to summon a bunch of Quasi-Imps! I know it probably is not RAW, but it would be cool for this build. 👍🏻
It would be! And I don't :(
@@DnDDeepDive I don’t think Flock of Familiars being used to summon a Chainlock’s special familiars is RAW. I just think it is super fun, and a DM might allow it for that much investment.
Of all the builds you have made, this is my favorite so far. I would definitely play it! 😊👍🏻
Some of my favorite commands:
Cease/ halt (stationary for a turn, they stop what they are doing)
Definistrate (If in tower, is quite affective)
Rest/ Lay/ grovel (Prone enemy get bonked harder)
Monologue (Funny dm go brr)
Undress (if they are armored)
Backflip/front flip, Gainer/ etc. (Acrobatics check -+ silvery barbs if nessisary- = prone enemy)
Confess (if under the affects of a zone of truth)
Prone (hey, advantage!)
Give (Thanks for the Maguffin, moron.)
For the one word command, the go to for me is usually "Grovel", since it makes them go prone, but "Deficate" tends to be a fun choice
ew :)
Pairing a paladin with a warlock especially an undead patron needs in character / game justification thank you for providing options for that justification. Savor the flavor!
i think DMs struggle with this combination because they are limited by old flavor constraints of the class. in 5e, the paladin just upholds tenets of an oath. they are sworn to ideals/philosophies/principles. not a god. if a god aligns with those principles, they might worship them too but they are more tied to those ideals (like an assassin who likes to kill while also worshipping the raven queen). looking at the paladin who strongly adheres to its oath instead of a god then makes it easier to pick up an undead patron as it's god whose philosophies will most likely align with some of the conquest paladin's oaths.
another route is the undead warlock/conquest paladin is simply you own unique class that gets martial/divine/eldritch powers from an undead patron that subscribes to the same philosophies of a conquest paladin.
@@TheRobversion1 Yes, your right. Initially I was thinking a fall from grace concept. Placing the stereotypical paladin as the starting place. I committed the cardinal sin of you tube commenters and haven’t watched the whole video through.
@@MrOwen817 fall from grace works but kind of implies veering into an evil character and an oathbreaker. if the campaign allows for that and the party is cool with having an evil character then that works.
A Baelnorn is another patron option. Undead Elven mages who continue into undeath to defend a place or family. Not evil and can only become undead with the blessing of the Elves.
The downside with going all-in on Fear is once this comes fully online you're about to get into Tier 3 at which point most enemies have resistance or immunity to being Charmed/Frightened. But you're still a tanky gishy blaster so it still works out.
yup. imo the best time to play this build is tier 2 so trying to get it online as soon as possible is best then switch gears once the campaign is deep into tier 3. the build is online anyway at level 8 by going conquest 7, undead 1. i'd personally throw in fighter 2 for action surge, set cha as the primary stat and that's a decent level 10 spread. once tier 3 comes, then it switches to a gish (switch to pact of the tome for shillelagh that you can divine smite with) and just be a smiter.
I am doing a very similar build. I used Leonin instead of Dragonborn. They get a BA to roar and fear anyone within 10ft. This will also save you from taking the Dragon Fear feat and taking something else or the ability score increase. But you do sacrifice the ability scores in the beginning to Charisma. Hopefully, you roll high.
Leonin is a great option - used it in my Fey Wanderer build for similar reasons :).
Great! Love the build. Very cool idea to support using "fear". I'm curious, I've been really wanting to try out a build using the fathomless warlock (and was thinking of trying a paladin multiclass as well). Would there be an optimized build based off that class that you can try doing in the future Colby? Love the videos as always~
Thanks! will add it to the list :)
Hmm. Fathomless + paladin multiclass will be a little hard as their abilities dont really synergize well. But if you're just looking for a fathomless multiclass or a paladin multiclass that's easy enough.
@@TheRobversion1 well part it doesn't have to be a paladin. One build I was thinking was eventually the fathomless warlock gets the spell evards black tentacles and with the invocation grasping and repelling blast, you can force the enemy(ies) to take more damage whilst on the tentacles. I saw a build where at level 7, you can multiclass from druid and fighter and warlock and do a grasping/repelling blast over spike growth and that seems strong (dealing approx 70~ damage a turn at level 7). This build is from a video by min/max munchkin and he makes a lot of interesting builds like that. Frankly I like how Colby goes through each level talking about stats and strats making it easier to follow. I just think a paladin multiclass could be somewhat similar to what Colby did in this video.
@@powerplayer5465 colby presented a similar build (cheese grater). check it out. better than going druid of min/max/munchkin. the problem with building around evards on a fathomless is it comes online too late. most campaigns are ending or halfway done at that point and we haven't even gotten to multiclassing to optimize yet (level 10). spike growth is easier as it come online early enough.
if evard's is what you want to play with, it's much better to get it from wizard/aberrant mind sorc so it comes online earlier at level 7 and we can come up with a build that finishes by level 10-11 which isn't too late.
if fathomless is what you want to play with, then imo you shouldn't build around evard's but build around the tentacle if you want to play a striker or the level 6 reaction ability if you want to play a tank. for example i have a:
fighter 2, efreeti 5, assassin 3
scorching ray burst striker build. fathomless can easily be substituted to the efreeti 5 and instead of using scorching ray you can use eldritch blast and the tentacle instead. i can go over the details if you're interested.
@@TheRobversion1 well that's why I want to see a video of Colby make it bc it'd be easy to follow and understand and make. This already sounds so confusing and convoluted lol
Breaking News! Level 11!
I think that an undead Warlock pact of the blade and the fear inducing effect of the dread form would be a great multiclass option for a conquest Paladin.
Now if only there was a way to negate fear immunity
yup thats the main weakness of the build. it would work better at lower tiers where fear immunity is not as common.
I was thinking about an undead warlock/moon druid multiclass so you could be an eldritch horror caracter, but a support warlock for me was a great suprise
Ooh- this sounds pretty juicy mechanically as well! Temp hp on top of wildshape hp with the frighten could be awesome
@@aidanmundell4501 they won't stack.
@@TheRobversion1 Sure will, what do you think wouldnt stack?
@@aidanmundell4501 that's my bad. i thought i saw temp hp from druid (which i presumed spore druid). i didn't see the word "wildshape."
I agree on the fact that you can't quantify support. I finally got the chance to play the support character I've been brainstorming. I gave one player a 32 initiative roll, revealed an invisible creature and wrecked them with faerie fire, gave a player a +1 axe and another a familiar, and picked up a dying teammate. I could have done even more, like boosting another player's speed with my free use of experimental elixir. Thats all awesome, and completely unquantifiable.
I remade this build in BG3 and holy crap it's really good. They just skip their turn and take psychic damage. And thanks to BG3's rules i can make 3 melee attacks (5 Pal/5 Bladelock in non honour mode) until I'm out of Eldritch and Divine Smites. But I prefer to use the Doomlobbers for melee range Eldritch Blast (Grasp of Hadar) with Spirit Shroud (Cold) + Create and Destroy Water.