UK should've given Home Rule to Ireland pre-1914 | Hitchens on Sinn Fein's recent election success
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
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![เปิดบ้าน พี่ตูน Bodyslam หลังใหม่คนแรก ที่ภูเก็ต l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/flFwcmyDQSk/mqdefault.jpg)
Well ye did partition our country mate against the wishes of the vast majority living on this island
@Jack: the film fanatic Haha, yes because the statelet was created by placing pro british people in place of the irish who are indigenous to the occupied 6 counties you speak off. Ulster is 9 counties btw
@Jack: the film fanatic You mean the same majority that voted against brexit ?
@Jack: the film fanaticOnly 1 county ,Antrim ,voted to remain in the UK.
That's hardly the majority.
Don't try to win a debate about democracy , I ve dealt with you before , you just stop replying when I expose the fact that you aren't democratic.
@Jack: the film fanatic If 75% of Scotland voted to leave the UK would you accept that Scotland is a fully independent country
No
Well, frankly, if it comes about as a result of violence, let's remember who was marching with civil rights placards and who was firing the live rounds when the Troubles began in 1969.
In 1968 many reforms were introduced to deal with Catholic grievances i.e Terrence o'neil's five point programme for reform, the shooting of "civil rights" demonstrators happened in 1972, at the time the British government were dealing with Catholic grievances.
@@bernardfitzsimons6942 Yes it was good of them. You're obviously being sarcastic but I'm not sure what point your making.
@@bernardfitzsimons6942 I don't know, spell it out for me.
@@bernardfitzsimons6942 800 years you mean.
Ulster Scots Presbyterians aka Ulster Unionists/Loyalists messed that up with thier sectarian bigotry.
@Jack: the film fanatic Yeah but sectarianism during Home rule on both sides they didn't want be ruled by Irish Roman Catholics it's that simple it's historic accurate.
The Protestants of the breakaway 26 southern counties, saw their numbers depleted from a healthy 10+% in 1921 to 3% 5 years later. They suffered horrendously at the hands of the Roman Catholic majority. It's no wonder Northern Ireland didn't want to be ruled by "Roman Catholics".
@@RobertK1993 Of course they didn't, and for very good reason.
Post partition unionists in NI were allowed to treat Catholics there like 4th class citizens. Not only did the British government allow this to happen but then they then opened fire on peaceful protestors marching for crazy civil rights like the right for somewhere to live, get a job or have a vote. Not withstanding everything that went before the 1916 rising going back to the famine and prior to that Britain had treated Ireland appallingly. I’d like to know what Peter Hitchens alternative to that would have been?
If the UK hadnt joined WW1 its likely Home Rule would have occurred and the Irish issue would probably largely have been largely settled at least for decades to come. And Ireland wouldn't have ended up as virtual theocracies both sides of an artificial border.
The reality of 1916 is there was no mass support for the rising most Irish folk would have settled for proper home rule.
@@alsoascot02 Britain would have NEVER let Ireland go. The home rule fiasco had gone on for nearly a hundred years. The unionists in NI were busy arming themselves in 1912 for basically civil war. Enough was enough. It was time to remove British interference from (most) of Ireland once and for all.
It’s the same kind of messy meddling they did in India and Palestine. Bullies trying to stay in control when they were no longer wanted. They should have declared the part of Northern Ireland where residents who wanted to stay with the union lived, and given the rest to Ireland. It would have been clumsy to have one city in 2 countries but better than murder. Once the movement for home rule is ignited it can’t be stopped and the Brits were too pompous and later too desperate to face it. Ahh, the joys of Monday morning quarterbacking.
Aw stop Hitchens
Never mind home rule...
Should of left us alone with full independence and we create our Republic.
Britain out of our affairs
Ulster Scots are in the way of that always undermining it they have be stopped.
Well if a certain Irish king of Leinster had kept it in he’s pants instead of fleeing to the Normans for help
Then just maybe what became Anglo Norman England and then Britain might never have gone to Ireland in the first place
Because you know asking an extremely warlike culture to assist you get your throne back doesn’t come free of charge !
Unionism =
Minority in the nation of Ireland.
Minority in the lands of Ulster.
Minority in occupied lands of Northern Ireland.
Minority in British politics always get their way.
You are talking bollox
@Jack: the film fanatic _"Minority in terms of people who will actually vote for it..."_ Perhaps, for the moment... tick... tick... tick...
Hitches is very well educated on Irish affairs unlike the GB news commentator.
A United Ireland is inevitable.
Only death is inevitable.
@@asanulsterman1025 The death of the empire.
Let's hope so.
@@monty0289 Ulster Scots Presbyterian Unionists are in the minority
Yes! Under British rule...
Peter Hitchens' body language when he's stuttering for words to say is great. No break of composure, just absolute confidence that he'll find the words he's looking for.
The reality is nobody wants them, the plantation of Ulster was a English solution to an English problem. Border reivers were a problem for the English for well over a 100 years in the 17th century. Solution was offer them land consficated by wars and plunder in Ulster, problem solved for the English, or was it.
Boris said there would be no border in the Irish sea
Boris also told his ex wife that he wasn't shagging Carrie
Boris said a lot of things, most turned out not to be true.
Then it was inevitable that there would be.
So many inaccuracies about this. His last line about a border changing hands because of violence, you will never catch Peter Hitchens talking about the Ulster Covenant of 1912 when is speaking about Home Rule bill pre-1914 which ultimately led to a border in Ireland. Brought about by violent means Peter.
The truth is Ireland should be independent since 1918 when they overwhelmingly voted for it. The British and their planters in Ulster stopped those democratic wishes. Now about 88% of the island are nationalists and they are waiting for that number to go to 90%+ for full independence.
The origin and reasons for Partition are long gone, simply when Partitioned, Belfast and Ulster was an industrial powerhouse, and had a Protestant majority - it is now on sick note and the Republic is very prosperous. When the Tories stated they had no "strategic" interest in Northern Ireland it was cutting the apron strings. The child has yet to leave home
The Irish Republic is a shell economy awaiting the next economic financial crisis, when it will again collapse like a wet paper bag, unfortunately.
N Ireland has not paid its way since 1938.
For the last 85 years it had its begging bowl out to the British taxpayer.
Meanwhile, the Dublin Government is debating on what to do with its 10 billion. euro surplus.
@@williampatrickfagan7590 Let's wait until the next financial crisis to see who's right. (Interesting stat about 1838 btw, didn't know that ...., if it's true).
@@williampatrickfagan7590 Did NI exist in 1838?
@@Horizon344
Typo.
1938
Even with WWII and 300, 000 free spending yanks n Ireland could not pay its way.
Google it.
I'm Irish European and proud of it unite Ireland now
what on earth is a "irish european"..?...never heard such rubbish.
There's only so much you can do - they'll have to decide if they stay or untie with the rest of Ireland.
We have decided many times to stay in the UK, but it seems that gov.uk thinks it's more convenient to pander to terrorists than defend it's citizens.
@@asanulsterman1025 The UK government letting groooming gangs run free even when they've assaulted hundreds of thousands of young English girls show that they don't even care about people in England let alone British people in Ulster. We're occupied by a government that sees its own people as the enemy
@@fyrdman2185 Agreed. Maybe we need another people's revolt to get rid of these revolting people?
Ulster Protestants Unionists will rebel if happens we see thier hypocrisy then.
@@asanulsterman1025 It was 'convenient' for the British Government to PANDER to the Protestant Plantation in Ulster for 300+ Years, to the extent that that same government were perfectly content to allow that same section to openly set up a 'Religious Apartheid State', whose sole aim was to ensure perpetual suppression of the Nationalist population.
Very well said,very well informed.
The main reason why the six county N Ireland exists, is because the British government was well aware that full independence for the entire island would most likely lead to a counter uprising, non acceptance and violence from Ulster Covenanters
7 out of 9 counties of Ulster now vote European and Irish another 10to 20 years and London interference in Ireland 🇮🇪 will ne finished ,
I hear the same diatribe from the scots too and all this independence nonsense...so ireland can truly self suffice can it.?...no goods coming in from the mainland at all.?...who would defend ireland.?...it has no army....Instead of asking the irish whether THEY want independence maybe we should ask the british..?..all this gibberish of self sufficing has to stop...
unless they want London to disappear there was a lot of high grade plutonium went missing after the soviet union fell
Up the RA
If Home Rule had happened in 1914 the Ulster Volunteers would have rebelled.
So? Cowering to Terrorists are we?
I guess that it would have cleared the air one way or the other
Instead of being a running sore
Cowering to terrorists? Lol. The British Army weren’t going to shoot loyal British subjects.
It was supposed to happen in 1870s under Gladstone
So who were the unionists going to fight in 1914? The British army??
Change of border as a result of violence??? What
That still would not have worked
Ira formed before the thought of home rule because of a rise in militant unionism. It’s the killing of the leaders after the gpo is the mistake british made
The original plan was home rule for all of Ireland. But the Curragh Mutiny and political pressure from the Unionists and demonstrations in London scuppered that deal. I know, my Great Uncle was one of three officers who refused to join the officers' mutiny where they refused to say they would, in the event of protestant uprising, quell the north to enforce home rule for all of the island of Ireland. It was a ghastly time. Stephen Cawley, was later killed very early in WW1. He made no friends by not joining in the mutiny.
Peter has had all his jabs..now has CDJ..
sounds like a dope head nowdays
His a pessimistic old fool.
Northern Ireland, Ulaidh or Ulster has always been independent, throughout history, so all Britain did was return it to state it was in before it invaded it, long after the Southern Kingdoms in Ireland were invaded, which is perfectly reasonable and proper. What they did wrong was giving in to the extremists and not returning all nine counties to Northern Ireland as requested at the time.
Northern Ireland is at a crossroads but the extremes in the Northern Irish cannot determine their future direction, when there are perfectly practical democratic, demographic and historically accurate alternatives. The extremes of the Northern Irish are really extreme but the number is exaggerated very extensively in the media, the small number of people actively involved are extremely well organised, extremely active, extremely focused and extremely vocal in all the media outlets so the noise they make is not proportionate to their actual support. Facts are hard to come by, but here we go.
19% of the Northern Irish population identify solely as Irish so would identify as Nationalist or Republican. Not all of this group would vote for unification in a referendum as the negative impact on their lifestyle, finances and demographic future would be massive. Which is why their politicians talk about a “New Ireland” and don’t even try to sell the existing Republic of Ireland to anyone.
35% of the Northern Irish population identify as British which is really a statement that they want nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland but would largely be receptive to an alternative that safeguarded their future.
42% of Northern Irish Citizens have no affiliation as they are quite happy with their lifestyle in Northern Ireland and do not want any sectarian affiliations. The democratic way forward is Independence and joining the EU as an independent country because that is the direction that reflects the vast majority of the population. That gives each group most of what they want without crossing tribal boundaries or causing the massive financial, social or demographic hardship that unification would cause. Unfortunately it will take time and patience to convince everyone that we a genuine democratic party, not an extremist proxy to get their vote as politics have become so divisive and dishonest. While the international audience panders to the extremes and ignores the moderate voices in Northern Ireland we will get more of the same divisive, tribal and dishonest propaganda from the extremists as that is their target audience. Interested in the facts and Northern Ireland, well download our android app :- play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.northernirish.citizensalliance&hl=en_GB&gl=US.
At the time of partition, Unionists did not want all 9 counties of Ulster. Do you not know your own history?
Peter disappoints on this subject. We are all very well aware successive governments would have dumped N. Ireland in the blink of an eye if they could. It is the people of GB and a few MP’s that have helped prevent it. Now it is entirely possible in time the people of Nl will vote for NI to become part of the Republic, but the people will never be United. It will be civil war. Because all of the divisions pre 1921 that forced a border in Ireland are still there. Anyone that thinks the people of Ireland North and South are going to get along are fools.
Actually no, would have to respectfully disagree. Firstly, Nationalists now heavily outweigh Unionists in the North, secondly, the British government has failed those of the 6 counties. Incidentally, in the 2016 census, Protestantism accounted for 4.2% of the population down South. Have you ever heard of violence between religious groups here in the South? No, we just get on with it as religion plays little part in the everyday lives on us here. The people of the 6 counties have been let down by the DUP, propping up Borris for empty promises. Any decisions would largely be economic & a future within the EU would ensure this, along with Economoc support to develop new industries rather than the constant empty promises of Westminster.
@@EMMYK1916 The respect is appreciated. I was born in the North. I have cousins, ants and uncles the length of the island. Many Catholics in the North are unionists. It is not clear cut. But the real question is does the south want the north, for it will be a burden. Unionism will not disappear. Current the British Exchequer subsidizes the north at the rate of 5 billion sterling a year. Just to maintain the status quo the south will have to do the same. Be real careful what you wish for. A better solution would be a federal united ireland within a united kingdom. Makes economic sense. You are all 'blow ins,' from before the Reformation in England anyway. As for the European Soviet, it's on its knees. Fractures and schisms everywhere. It won't hold together much longer. Thank the lord.
Give Peter a show already!
Unionists forget or do not know that Parnell was a Protestant. The Home Rule party had Protestants in senior positions too. But the Unionists still said "Home Rule is Rome Rule".
Both are true. Wolfe Tone was also a Protestant. Under De Valera Ireland became a theocratic state from the 1930’s through at least the 1980’s. This is no longer the case as Ireland has become prosperous and secular. As NI is more socially conservative than Ireland or Great Britain , Unionists must be feeling rather lonely today.
The funny thing is if you did we would've been you're puppet, you were just too greedy to give any power because of the size of you're empire.
2000 views. hahahahahahahaha
No mention of the significant rise in MLA seats for the Alliance party. They claim to be neutral on the unification issue. This suggests there's a growing number of voters who are fed up with the sectarianism and want a party to govern NI for all. This seems to be the direction of travel. Maybe the Belfast Agreement is in need of reform.
I think Alliance voters are mostly unionist.
Difference is Alliance and the other middle ground parties aren't bleeding off votes from nationalism but from unionism.
Wrong a lot of their mlas only got in due to second preference nationalist votes
The.british are gone michelle Oneil is first minister unionists loyalist don't want to share .The game is up Ireland 🇮🇪 32
Look the majority in both the north and the south want their country re-united and it is that simple. The Brit govt and the loyalists have to accept the democratic wishes of the Irish people full stop. What you now have are a minority of colonial settlers and the Brit govt opposing democracy and that cannot go on forever.
Far too short a clip.
Ireland no longer needs patronising from pseudo intellectual British commentators.
No just needs the UK as it's biggest trading partner best not bite the hand that feeds you
Out.
O it
U
Peter expresses the view that Ireland should have had Home rule before 1914. Well Gladstone tried to introduce Home rule as early as 1886 but Ulster point blank refused to be ruled from Dublin as they knew Irish nationalists wanted more than Home rule. Even when threatened with the use of the British Army to force through a united ireland Ulster refused and raised its own 100,000 strong army, the UVF, to take control of Ulster if the need arose. The final home rule bill giving the same deal to ROI and to Ulster was only snuck through when WWI had started and the UVF had gone to fight for the Empire, the nationalists refused to fight for Empire and the IRA even conspired with Germany as they also did in WWII. So Peter's comment is untypically silly. Of course Ulster's mistrust of Irish nationalism was proved right by the treacherous 1916 uprising. Again Peter makes a silly comment about the executions following the 1916 rising, of 200 rebels sentenced to death for armed rebellion during time of war only 13 were actually hung, the leniency of the British government let nearly 200 dangerous rebels walk free a year later and they went on to organise further rebellion, De Valera was one of those spared the death penalty. And the British government has still not learnt it's lesson in dealing with extreme irish nationalism, give an inch and they take a mile.
It is ahistorical to state as you said "the nationalists refused to fight for empire". John Redmond had made a call to Arms in Woodenbridge Co. Wicklow in September 1914. All the Irish divisions, including the 11th and 16th divisions saw action in all theaters of the 1914-18 conflict.
@@gerardpaulbyrne48 Contrary to your misleading comment it is a historical fact that irish nationalists by and large refused to fight for the Empire.
Redmond did indeed make a call to nationalists to join the war effort, he offered to protect Ireland's shores while the British and Ulster armies were off fighting. At that time Ireland was split between nationalists and non-nationalists. The nationalists were represented by the 180,000 Irish volunteers raised in response to the formation of the 100,000 Ulster Volunteers. Of the Irish Volunteers 25,000 joined the war effort, and amongst the non nationalists around 100,000 joined up. Another 10,000 of the Irish Volunteers stayed at home to "defend Ireland's shores". And wiki states "However, the more radical fringe of Irish nationalism, the remaining Irish Volunteers and the secretive Irish Republican Brotherhood, rejected Irish participation in the war on Britain's side. They actively opposed enlistment and in secret, elements of them prepared an armed insurrection against British rule in Ireland which would later be known as the 1916 Easter Rising."
So please stop trying to pretend Irish nationalists saw the Empire's peril as anything other than an opportunity to advance their cause.
@@asanulsterman1025 You've contradicted yourself in your second reply from your initial assertion that Irish Nationalists refused to fight.
My initial comment was that the leader of nationalist Ireland had made a call to Arms, which you clearly overlooked and failed to mention.
The subsequent split in the national army was just that. Subsequent.
Also, when quoting a source, for future reference; Wikipedia isn't sufficient.
I'll be magnanimous and allow you the final say and opportunity to correct your ahistorical position.
@@gerardpaulbyrne48 Geez... your attempt to rewrite history is pure blarney. I'll stand by my factual comments which show that 86% of Irish nationalists prepared to fight for Ireland *refused* to answer their leaders call to fight in WWI.
Ulster Loyalists of the UVF were so loyal they imported 25,000 rifles from Germany to prevent the British government instituting Home Rule (NI got it anyway) a few months before WWI. They were sent to war to get them out of Northern Ireland.
Ulster must remain British, if the UK Government can fight for Ukrainian Sovereignty and it’s integrity then We can fight and keep our Loyalist, Unionist Brothers and Sisters British 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 their will never be a United Ireland but their always will be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Scotland want out , Ireland will be united.
The empire is gone, your living in the past ,
Ulster is also in the republic as we speak
Polls show a majority in Scotland doesn’t want out. Same in NI. It’s just constitutional opportunism and expediency. Putin would love to see it. We don’t live in a world of “nations”; we live in a world of States. And unilateral secession and the dismemberment of a State’s territorial integrity in the absence of consent, or widespread human rights abuses, is unlawful in both domestic and international law.
Never .🤣🕶 open your eyes, it's happening, 🇮🇪 32
Ulster? Jesus maybe… look at a fuckin map
As usual the contrarian Peter Hitchens paddles boldly into dangerous intellectual shoals he has minimal understanding of. HMG facilitated an Irish parliament within a generation of legitimate political contest over the issue, which was a reasonable time to take for a major national reform (Brexit took the same timescale). The 1916 Irish Republican revolutionaries had stabbed the UK in the back whilst it was involved in a life or death struggle with the II Reich, & had run around Dublin city centre killing anything they didn't like the look of (often in cold blood), causing the deaths of hundreds of people, mainly civilian by-passers - the idea that the judicial fate of a handful of their ring-leaders was "terrible" in comparison with what they had meted out to others in large number is trite. If UIster joins the Irish Republic, it will be from democratic voting, not terrorism, big difference in what P-IRA & the Irish Government pre-1993 wanted.
800 years of trying to assimilate Ireland into the British Empire failed. We are not saxon Norman, we want to be master in our own land, you will leave the rest of Ireland, its happening, get over it .
Ireland for hundreds of years had rebellions against the Foreign Tyrant , oppressor, The British. In 1916 The Irish hero's fought The British Empire, hit your enemy when they are are at their weakest. Sure aint that what the British Empire did for hundreds of years, invaded other countries and Murdered the people of that country. In 1916 twas the British who killed the most innocent people, sure nothing new for them. There will be a United Ireland, you can't keep a country divided forever. The Occupied Six counties will be joined again with the rest of the country 🇮🇪. , it wont be Ulster joining as , ( Ulster has 9 Counties ) 3 in the Republic and six in The Occupied Six Counties.
Horizon ? Full o ' shite!
They got the 11 Reich out of 26 counties
World war 1 was a royal feud
Depends how you look at it hitch. Ireland has been colonized and oppressed for centuries. The British must hold themselves accountable for that, therefore any change to the border is a result of the British presence or absence thereof.