Thor, I've said it before and I'll say it again: you are a very intelligent and thoughtful individual. Your comparison of abuse of the dark side to addiction is SPOT ON. I hope that if any of your followers are experiencing addiction in any form, they may realize it started out as one being in control... before they became servants of their addiction. Props to you, sir! Well stated!
Absolutely. If anyone out there is struggling with addiction of any kind, I implore you to get help. Hell, I'll gladly try to find you help myself if you feel like you have nowhere else to turn.
Rigel Spikes as someone with a past in substance abuse, I legitimately find wisdom in the dichotomy of the light and dark and the philosophies of the sith and Jedi. For example “if” there is no emotion, there is peace. It’s not to repel emotion it is to make peace within yourself.
...and Samuel L. Jackson had no other intention with the purple light saber than to be able to single himself out in a busy action scene. He just wanted to be able to find the purple light saber and say "there I am". He said as much in an interview.
I hope you don’t mind me commenting my opinion but I will say I don’t like how mace windu had a purple lightsaber in the movie only because he said he wanted one because if he was allowed to have the color lightsaber he wanted than he should have let the other Jedi use the color lightsabers they wanted but otherwise there shouldn’t have been that one exception because I think it was absolutely ridiculous but I feel like Star Wars in a bad way is too all over the place and that’s what I don’t like about it and why I feel that way it’s a long story
As the Jedi Council tends to be very conservative and believe their authority to be absolute, they tend to view others who don't subscribe to them as either rogue or Grey Jedi. That is the definition that I would apply to that term but it can also mean those Jedi who have gone into hiding not just to escape death but also to escape the responsibility of listening to the Force and to those in need. Jake Skywalker is pretty much the primary example of a Grey Jedi while he isn't referred to as such, his actions define it that way.
They are problem childs who need of a clever and resourceful master with a lot of patients. They can just as easily represent the best of what a Jedi should be in some areas as their are to represent the worse. To the point where the Order probably has a permanent unit dedicated to preforming regular cost vs benefit reviews for the more difficult of them. At some point in their service the Council would probably have way whether or not to give one the boot, if they don’t decide to quit on their own.
more or less. I believe they still respond and obey the council but not all the time. They tend to bend rules and tend to disobey. That's all. Members of the order who argue and push the council
I always imagined that starting to use the Dark Side is like starting to abuse a drug. "Just this one time!" And before you know it, you lost control and "It's too late for me, my son..."
Somewhat. It's the sole use of the Dark Side, and nothing but the Dark Side, that leads you down a path to evil. The Jedi, would rather, just to play it safe, would prefer to steer clear of the Dark Side completely. The problem is, to achieve balance you must draw on the both Dark and the Light equally. That is what balance is, both Light and Dark.
@@lukerope1906 "It is such a quiet thing to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it." Kreia To me, what you said here fits perfectly into the Kreia quote above. Someone who believes they can draw on the dark and light simultaneously will often cause them to fall to the dark and not know it. The dark side is so corruptive that each time you use it, it gets harder and harder to refuse it and will often cause the user to become twisted and evil. A prime example of this is Jacen Solo from Legends, who willingly began to use the dark side in an attempt to stop the countless wars that raged across the galaxy and kept setting a "bottom line" for the amount of the dark side he would use. Problem is, every time he passed that limit, Jacen changed it, refusing to believe that he had fallen. The only way to prevent this would be to cut yourself completely off from the galaxy, become apathetic to others and the galaxy. As long as light and dark exist, there can never be harmony, only chaos. The dark side is the imbalance in the Force. In the Mortis arc of the Clone Wars, which many use to justify this whole "equal parts Light and Dark is balance" theory, the Force on Mortis is thrown out of balance by the Son, who is the embodiment of the dark side. And when the Father claims that balance has been restored, it is because the Son was killed by Anakin. In other words, the destruction of the dark side brought balance. This also lines up with George Lucas' original philosophy on the Force, that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance in the Force, and their destruction caused by Anakin restored balance to the Force.
Personally, I always believed that the ideals of the Jedi weren't inherently good or bad, just like any other religion, but instead that it slowly became extreme in its own way. As you explained, it's perfectly fine to craft your life around the idea of constant service to others--you can choose how you live--just don't try to force it upon others. In fact, I see the Old Jedi Order by the time they fell as being essentially fundamentalists who take every tenet of their religion as literally as possible with no margin for alternate interpretations, leading to members leaving the Order for one reason or another(ie. The Lost Twenty). This nature would naturally make those who sought their own interpretations to find some other avenue to understand the Force, and this is where the Dark Side comes in with its seductive ways. As you said, the Dark Side is like an addiction, and just like an addiction, it could simply begin with curiosity, if it's _really_ as bad as everyone says, a forbidden fruit as it were, that very quickly leads one down a path that they very well may never return from. However, at the same time, also like an addiction, there are still ways that people can help them kick the habit despite what others had done, and in fact are still as rare and miraculous as it sometimes is in real life. How do I know this? Anakin Skywalker. Anakin was brought into the religion of the Jedi at an age too old to be fully indoctrinated with their sometimes fundamentalist ideals, and thus was able to have a more open mind toward alternate avenues of understanding the Force--He was the one to bring up the _supposed_ hypocrisy between Jedi having to be compassionate to everyone, yet not allowed to show love. As such, when he began to feel later in life that he couldn't completely reconcile himself with the Jedi teachings, Sheev "The Senate" Palpatine sneaked in and began to whisper sickly sweet promises about those "unnatural" abilities of the Dark Side, and we know how that ended. But therein lies the rub: Anakin's own interpretation of the Force had him marry Padmé and sire children, namely his son Luke. When Luke faced Anakin, now Darth Vader, on Bespin, the boy refused his father's offer to rule alongside him, instead confronting his mentors about his father's true fate. Just like his father, Luke became a Jedi far too old to be completely indoctrinated, and thus very easily formed his own interpretation of the Force, but was still able to see the flaws inherent in using the Dark Side, and thus faced Vader on Endor with the only goal of saving his father. Luke did this despite both Obi-Wan and Yoda insisting that the only way to save the galaxy was to kill Vader, as he was so far gone that he couldn't possibly come back to the light. Luke saw the truth of it, and to the bitter end refused to kill Vader, even after briefly losing himself to his anger and destroying Vader's sword arm. When Luke was given the chance to make the killing blow, the one his Jedi masters nigh demanded he make, he instead cast aside his lightsaber and stood tall in defiance against the most powerful Sith in recent memory. In the end, it wasn't the teachings of the Jedi that lived in their white knight Luke that saved the galaxy from Palpatine's Empire--It was the love and compassion in the heart of the recovered addict Anakin that killed the empire, destroyed the Sith, and brought balance to the Force, just as the prophecy had foretold so many years before. The prophecy was indeed misread, but not quite in the way the fundamentalist Jedi Order had thought.
Very well said. I think cutting Luke's immense contributions out of the equation to satisfy the prophesy is unfortunate, though. It was his unwavering, seemingly unconditional love and compassion that stirred this reciprocation in his father, after all.
Disagree. For one thing, if it was the Force's will that Anakin was the Chosen One, Qui-Gon wouldn't have intervened when Watto rolled the chance cube.
Tbh the gray Jedi idea was thought of probably because the people that watched star wars grew older and got bored of easily distinguishable good and evil. This was just the easiest way to bring some conflict and new concepts into a story. As the writers have chosen the easiest route, i guess you could call them sith ;)
The concept of the Gray Jedi was mostly birthed in the video game Knights of the Old Republic. Star Wars fans liked the idea of having dark side powers without the consequences that come with them. Ever since that game fans have been trying to single out characters in the Star Wars lore as Gray Jedi.
It seems people like the idea of grey jedi because they think the dark side powers are cool but they dont want to be called sith. In reality they are sith deluding themselves
@@kalamari1611 She was simply an Jedi that wasn't apart of the Jedi order. She still followed their beliefs for the most part, expect when she tried to get revenge but she never did it again.
Having been a Star Wars fan since the 70s, I feel like that the entrance of Daoist principles into the Western collective culture has resulted into the Dark side being conflated with Chaos and the light side being a rep of Order. Daoism asks you to walk the line between Chaos and Order and so fans believe that a Jedi must walk the line between light and dark, but this fails into consideration the fact that the Dark side has been portrayed as inherently malicious while Daoist chaos just is. A better analogy would perhaps be of fear and courage from classical myth. Gilgamesh, Hector, Bellerophon, Beowulf, they all succumb to fear from time to time, but their fear is only a prelude to their mastery of it and ultimately a prelude to courage. We see Luke undergoing through this time and again in the OT, which makes sense given how Luke’s arc is based on Campbell’s writings. The Prequels however highlight what happens when fear is not a prelude to courage. It becomes corruptive and corrosive becoming eventually a bringer of tyranny. I see the force simply as how the Romans saw Grāvitās. A force sensitive is simply someone with the capacity for being a person of myth with the capacity for being a hero. Whether you succumb to fear and run as Hector did before Achilles slew him or hold onto your courage come what may as Odysseus was able to do is simply your choice.
i actually prefer viewing the force in terms of taoist philosphy and i think it's very helpful to give context to the overall nature of the force.... the force isnt good or bad, right or wrong, it just is, its both good and bad, right and wrong at once, the difference emerges in the way in which each individual chooses to view and interact with the force, where the jedi are pracitioners of balance, exertion through relaxation and achieving synchronicity with the force, dark side users are using the force in a destructive way, for purposes that are intrinsically destructive, the only ultimiate outcome being destroying everything around and within you, like vader, until his last gasp relaxing and allowing the force to flow through him and with him, where he achieved final peace... whereas, luke in tlj, relaxing his body and mind so much, allowing himself to enter such a meditative state and synchronicity with the force he was able to transcend time and space projecting his essence to crate for a constructive and positive purpose, saving his friends... kylo was fooled and couldn't understand what luke was doing because he was consumed with destructive energy, hate, rage, vitriol and while that made him strong, only in that moment and only to a certain extent, no match for luke who was at that point essentially the force incarnate, the ultimate epitome of exertion through relaxation..... anyway, this context has allowed me to enjoy the stories more fully, imo and i think it enhances the viewing experience for sure....
@@thespeedofchillax6691 👏🙋👍 well done jedi master, it's also based on stoicism, equilibrium. In many ways I also think it is a constant battle we all have within, when reasoning with our mind vs our heart, or our natural instincts & our civiliced rationality, a wee bit dualistic, but I don't think the Force is dualistic, but we are in our nature. Carl Jung speaks of different archetypes, & one interesting called the "Shadow", self, which sounds like the dark side, only it can be integrated in our self for bringing balance & use that power for good, instead of fighting it, try harnessing/channel it for good. There are different "intelligences/forces" within us. We act on it due to the way we interpret their reasoning, in the end my belief is that we succumb to the powerful wisdom of the heart
@@UniqueGeekFreak In the novelization of Revenge of the SIth Obi Wan has a line that I think is excellent. He says in response to Windu telling him that he senses the Dark Side surrounding Palpatine and even Akakin "is there not something of the Dark Side around all of us, even you Master"? That should really have been included in the movie. I think that's the objection I have to some people who claim that only weak or stupid people fell. Nope, I think one of the messages was that anyone can fall. Even the best of people, because we all have that capacity within us.
I think the reason we question the Jedi is because we ultimately see them through Anakin’s eyes in the prequels. The older he got the more he distrusted and questioned the Jedi way.
He was inducted into the order at an unusually late age. Told by the Jedi themselves that he may very well be the chosen one foretold to bring balance to the Force. And Palpatine made absolute certain to worm his way into becoming one of Anakin's most trusted confidants where he could influence him over time, especially during the Clone War.
So the Force made Annikin an orphan brutally killing his mother? The Force made Annikin kill the younglings? The Force made Annikin into Vader? The Force then waited until luke randomly met OBwon? The Force made kyber crystals so powerful that they can destroy a planet?
I think the fundamental problem with the Jedi that lead their fall is fear. In particular, fear of the dark side. Now I am not saying that they should use the Darkside or following its teachings, but alot of they're more objectionable rules seem to be based upon the idea of a avoiding it altogether as opposed to acknowledging it, making peace with it, but not falling to it and achieving balance that way.
The dark vs light are concepts only possible by people, a tree can't be light nor can a beast be dark, they both just are of their nature. A lion killing a gazelle is not evil. We try to cast their motives into a carbonite mold. Is a tree of the light side still good if made into weapons for murder?
Also, I would say their problem was that in refusing to acknowledge it altogether is that they did not allow people to recognize it, or learn how to combat it. I think that's why so many Jedi did fall, in spite of these teachings (like 95% of the Sith started out as Jedi). They did not or could not recognize the signs of temptation, they could not see they were being manipulated or lied to, and they sometimes have motives that were entirely good. There is a story in Legends of Jeacen Solo, the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia who ends up falling to the Dark Side, ironically, as a result of his desperate attempt to *not* do so, and to avoid a prophecy which says he will.
Good point. I always thought the Jedi were fine and it was just misunderstood by Anakin and later the fans. Maybe I'm blind, but I never took it as them losing their way they were just shortsighted, just as any of us can be shortsighted.
@cocharles563 that's not a very good comparison here, one many animals kill for more then just for food. Chimps have violent wars, cats have caused many bird and Lizard species to go extinct in North America due to over hunting, and they play with their food, sometimes before its dead. Lions and hyenas kill each other just due to Hating each other. They don't eat each other. Dolphins will grape other animals. Mallards are known to grape female ducks. Tree has no Consciousness so it can't really hold any morality, it doesn't think about it'd actions. Where as humans and animals think about and process their actions and choose, to different degrees depending on the species.
People also seem to think that the issues that the Jedi order was having towards the end of the clone warsare issues that would have been present throughout their entire history, instead of issues that seem to crop up after effectively 1,000 years of not having an explicit enemy. If you don't have a clear-cut example of something to oppose, it's hard to explain why something is so bad. of course, we have Papa Palpatine doing his stuff in the background making everything worse as well, but the issues would have been there regardless of his machinations.
The scene that perfectly captures the error of the Jedi code is the Anakin and Joda therapy session, Anakin went seaking help, got a preaching and nothing more.
Anakin was lying to Yoda and the rest of the Order when he went seeking council. You can't exactly blame Yoda for being vague, but even then his advice to Anakin was correct. If he had just accepted that everyone dies eventually and that's okay, Anakin would have never been bound to his miserable fate.
@@cocharles563 who said that? They had difference between have a close person who's dying and Anakin who have seen a FUTUR who can potentially happen but potentially DON'T happen
@@Marshall_Thompson IMO it's not about distributing blame, still I think Yodas reaction was horrifying. I liked Pop Culture Detectives analysis of this: th-cam.com/video/tUPD1w78D5I/w-d-xo.html With this video, I thought i would get different perspective, so I watched it and the yoda scene again. I still disagree. Yoda didnt try to listen and understand at all, he asked some closed questions to then give some vague advice. I'm not a professional counselor, but already did some studying in this field and I don't know a single form of modern therapy/counseling that believes thats the way. Even apart from counseling, "I have fears" - ""Stop that, thats dangerous" is not a good way to treat a human being at all. Can't imagine that to be helpful, especially for someone that has been traumatized as a child by losing his mother... twice basically. And 'just accepting that everyone dies eventually and thats okay' is just right to some degree. Otherwise, there would be no point in rescuing people or even building hospitals. So I think you shouldnt throw around a phrase like this with very little context like yoda did.
One thing I like about the lore of Vapad is that he couldn’t teach it to others. Others tried it, but everyone else weren’t able to keep the dark side at bay. They all fell because they dabbled in the Dark, except for Mace.
@@generaljimmies3429 I don't know, Batman doesn't generally dismember people. Speaking of, have you ever rewatched that scene and thought of all the easy and obvious ways Anakin could have gotten up there without getting de-legged? And have you ever noticed that Anakin's limbs magically disappear from the shot where he's rolling down the hill?
"No force power is inherently good or evil, it's how you use it"- Kyle Katarn "If you are truly to understand the force you will need the contrast"- Kreia
No. Force lightning is inherently evil. It's bolts of pure hate which inflict massive suffering on the victim. It's a power only someone drawing on the dark side would ever use. The same goes for Force choke. Life is breath. Using the Force, the very energy of life, to painfully restrict the flow of life in another being is also inherently evil. This is why you never see true Jedi using these powers. The only exception is Luke in the beginning of Return of the Jedi, and this is because at this point his alignment is supposed to be ambiguous. That's why he's dressed in black.
And force choke can be applied without leathal asphyxiation. The us eof telekinesis to break/crush or blast stuff isn't malicious in nature. If this line of thinking is correct then master Yaddle of all people has an ability that can slow a persons bodily functions down to 0. While it's forbidden to to the off chance it's done wrong that power too can peacefully subdue someone without acute or chronic harm.
@@cataclysmicacedia824 This isn't about literal rationalizations. This is about symbolism. Force choke and Force lightning are both symbolic representations of concepts relating to domination and the infliction of pain. That's why they're off-limits to Jedi, who are meant to to embody concepts relating to compassion and non-aggression. I have no idea what you're talking about with Yaddle because I don't pay attention to what random people who write tie-in products have to say about things.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of why the Sith are bad and the Jedi are not. The Sith teachings encourage dark side use for the sake of dark side use. There is no goal other than to see how dark you can become, and the Sith began to discover that you could get darker by doing more and more evil things. And that it opened up abilities that were "unnatural". The dark and light side always exist. The Sith teachings were a perversion that encouraged evil for the sake of evil, continually and forever. "Keep putting the needle to your arm until you forget who you are," basically. The Jedi teachings were not a perversion but simply a code that helped Jedi live by a certain set of standards. They are two totally different ideologies, which is why the Sith had to go in order to bring balance. The Sith perverted the dark side into something different and unnatural, by magnifying that power so greatly that it altered the very nature of the Force.
The thing it was Rian Jonson himself who made this canon As much as I don’t like the Last Jedi, it didn’t invalidate the Jedi themselves. Rey basically imitates Luke in ROTJ to a “T”, a Jedi through and through according to himself Luke may have scorned them but we late find out it’s to cover up his own wrongdoing and he’s essentially a foil to Rey I’m honestly in the mind that Rian had a lot of different ideas on set but of course he had took with wha teas set up in TFA and he had to adhere to JJs mystery box approach and therefore NOT reveal any overarching plot points for the whole trilogy(at least not intentionally). Methinks that he ran out of time and money and had to piece together the footage he had to make the most coherent story. I mean look at Luke in a deleted scene in which he fools Rey into thinking an armada of raiders are coming only to tell her a Jedi would do nothing. I don’t know what went through Rians mind but he clearly didn’t have one specific direction for this film Overall though the Last Jedi doesnt attempt to invalidate the Jedi in the prequels. Fans of the movie however think that it will pave the way for a grey Jedi because of the way it “subverts expectations” but even that’s assuming too much Again the only overencompassing rule or format to the sequel trilogy was JJs mystery box approach. No plot point was set in stone: Snoke went out abruptly and with no name but that decision was still retractable because of the vagueness of his identity. Same with Rey Nobody: Kylo ren has a motive to lie as the villain and the movie could have shown Rey’s parents and their likenesses but it didn’t . It could’ve had their surname mentioned: it didn’t
This is the first video I've seen in a long time that explores what the Force originally meant and was. While I love the EU and the idea of someone gaining insight from using both sides of the force (Revan is one of my favorite characters) I completely agree that Lucas' version of the force is different from that. The way I always viewed the force in the original trilogy and the prequels was that the light and dark werent in balance together but rather that the light side was balance and the dark side was imbalance.
The idea of Grey Jedi was created by roleplayers and fan-fiction writers who want their Jedi to have the power and cool-factor of the Dark Side without the drawbacks.
Depends on your definition of "Roleplayer" 'cause if you're talking about table top gaming, guess again, Greys get dark side points for dark deeds just like light siders do. It's part of the games mechanics.
@@trustinfaith9778 Yes, it was mentioned (numerous times) in Legends. To quote Kotor II: "Gray Jedi are those who, though having completed the teachings of the Jedi, operate independently and outside of the Jedi Council. They are typically seen as misguided, though they have not necessarily succumbed to the dark side." ~Grey Jedi Robe Item description Orders/people that are considered Gray Jedi in Legends: Je'daii Order Jensaarai Imperial Knights Voss Mystics Jolee Bindo ("Well I assure you, I see more grey than dark or light. I'm just a stubborn old man tired of the foolishness of others.") People that are considered Grey Jedi in the new canon: The Father (Maintains balance between the Light and the Dark, the Daughter and the Son) The Bendu ("I am the one in the middle") Ahsoka Tano (possibly, as Dave Filoni said her white lightsabers were to show that she was affiliated with neither the Jedi nor the Sith.)
@@trustinfaith9778 I think that is what he meant. Since the idea of "Gray Jedi" is not a canon concept, either from its very creation by anyone associated with LucasFilms to modern day LucasFilms, its origins place it in the EU or Legends domain...meaning created by someone else outside of the franchise.
THANK YOU! The philosophical differences between the Sith and Jedi is so dramatic, it’s not about a balance between dark and light, it’s about a fundamentally different understanding of, and interaction with, the force.
Eric Brown The sadder part is that it didn’t need to go this route. Disney and Kennedy could’ve had Lucas stay onboard as a consultant to make it feel more like Star Wars, like he wanted and expected. Instead, they ditched him and used his creation to do whatever they wanted, i.e. throw agendas in everyone’s faces and make as much money as possible.
Yes I did see the prequels, I thoroughly enjoy them. But I do see your point, but that's your opinion and this is mine. I absolutely hate the sequels, which hurts me to say.
The Prequels have problems in the form of bad dialogue and acting, but the stories were interesting, the characters evolved and the world-building and development of the mythology were great. The Sequels so far have the reverse problem with weak stories that don’t make much sense, boring and one-note characters, very little development of the mythology and no world-building, but they look nice and are well-acted.
While I disagree that to find balance a jedi needs to learn the dark side. I also disagree that a jedi should not have attachments or emotions. But rather they need to learn how to temper and control those emotions. Because if you look at the prequels and original trilogies. Its essentailly the tale of anakin being told that he must let go of his attachments and suppress his emotions toward them. But that ends up backfiring for the jedi when he feels he has nowhere else to turn to other than the dark side. If the jedi had allowed anakin to show his emotions and to talk to him about them instead of telling him to suppress them then he wouldn't turn to palpatine. But to contrast that Luke finds the balance not in the ethereal force, or even in the literal definition of him having both light and dark side powers. But an internal balance of himself when he realizes that if he doesn't stop and control his anger and rage that he will destroy the very person he was trying to save. And that to me has always been the core message of star wars. That it's ok to have people you love and care for but we can't allow the emotions we have to control and consume are very being.
That was the whole point of the prequels....that the Jedi code was flawed. Notice how in the OT, Yoda only warns Luke about negative emotions, and it was Luke's attachments to Han, to Leia, to his father that prevented him from falling to the dark side. That was Lucas's message and the deeper meaning behind Star Wars.
Jedi & Sith are based on Taoism. Jedi have a bit of darkness. Sith have a bit of the light. Anakin Skywalker is an example of balance of both that a Taoist seek. (I am not Taoist I ma guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
The idea of the Force itself is borrowed from the Tao, but the Tao is not yin and yang, light and dark, male and female. This is a very reductionist, and typical of Western understanding of light/dark. Rather, these harmonies and dualities are how the Tao itself is manifested. A Taoist doesn't seek to be balanced between masculine and feminine, they seek to be what they are - at peace with the manifestation of the Great Way (the Tao) within themselves and those around them. To seek out darkness when you are light is to fail to conform to the Tao, to seek out light when you are dark is to fail to conform to the Tao. The Sith pursue to manipulate the Force, they chase after the Dark, and so do not conform to the harmony of all the Force itself. There is death, yes, but think of it more like The Lion King's Circle of Life. Death is part of the balance of life, it is necessary to maintain equilibrium within the environment and thus within the greater Galaxy. The Sith seeking to live forever is a disruption of this balance. The Jedi ACCEPT the dark side of the Force, but they do not seek to use it or manipulate it for their own end. It's the different between a predator like a lion killing a gazelle for food and a hunter killing a gazelle for sport - or more accurately, a farmer who wipes out a whole herd of gazelle for the sake of arable land to accrue more power and security to himself. One is part of the natural order, where death and even killing can be necessary, and the other is an extortion of an otherwise natural process. The idea of the Sith isn't that they are necessary; a balanced Force is the light side of the Force, that is an acceptance of death, of the way of all things, and to exist peaceably within it. You have some dark in you, but the dark cannot be fed or used at the expense of others. The idea of the Sith is that to pursue something other than balance is to disrupt the song. Conflicting notes creating dischord in the symphony of the Galaxy, rather than seemingly conflicting notes creating a beautiful harmonic chord.
@@harktheheral Jedi are selfless peacekeepers that accepted death. Sith are selfish, frightened of the death that want power. Both ideals are right and wrong. Some can be selfish to save their family than the entire population of people. Fear of death is a natural response for some people. Power can be defined many ways political power or physical power or the power to get better at something. Both ideals are right and wrong. So in Taoist belief is to accept natural balance and live with it rather than against it. Western ideals fit more with the Sith but Eastern ideals fit more with the Jedi. That is my people believe the way of the Jedi is wrong be in the West it is literally a foreign concept. My view on the Force in Star Wars is that both sides are right and wrong but when Thor started making videos about the Force and it was described by lack of the Sith and Jedi living in harmony with natural concepts it made me confused because it when against by belief that both sides are right and wrong. So maybe Star Wars isn't based on the Taoism after all. In my fan-made Star Wars stories I used the believe the both sides are right and wrong. I tried to portray the Sith as a misunderstood order that has good sympathetic traits but you tell me that I was wrong in that believe. I just don't understand Taoism it seems.
I think that the Jedi became flawed, and that’s part of the main idea of the prequels is that they failed. Yoda says “failed, I have”. The Jedi system failed
People also forget that you can actually quit being a jedi at any time and leave the order. With the high quality of education you recive in the temple would help you secure different career. Anakin could have easely do that and be with Padme his skills would help him to pursue different types of fullfilling careers instead he wanted to have cake and eat it too. He wanted both to be with Padme AND be a "greatest Jedi that ever lived" and at the end he had niether of these things.
It's interesting to see the contrast of how the Jedi order operated and the DisneyCorp trilogy. The former acted primarily on reason and thought, whereas Rey has primarily quickly followed every emotion and whim that comes to her without much planning or analysis. That could cause problems in the new order she's likely going to create.
I always took that first line of the code to be something to use when emotions were clouding your judgement. That it was something used to "clear one's mind" rather than to imply that a living being should be emotionless at all times.
Thank you! I'm so glad to hear someone talk about the Jedi and the force in this way! It's about the individuals which tap into this energy field, and the way that the dark side amplifies and corrupts the _user_ , not that there are two semi sentient "forces" in the one greater force that are constantly at war with champions on both sides stuck between. The reality is that the Jedi way, and the Jedi's respect for the force is empirically good, and dark side users are corrupt from power, which leads them to commit evil acts to get more power, not that they're following some 'Dark Side Will'.
@@RicardoAGuitar Of course not, I'm just saying being reminded of it at all every time Star Wars is brought up is miserable. I'm sure that's just what they want, but if there's a brightside to it it's that one day after the well's dried up maybe someone can acquire the rights and fix it. If I live that long it'll be a good day.
MerlosTheMad i’m gonna loosely quote you prequel lovers here : if you let a couple movies in the franchise ruin the entire series for you then you aren’t a real fan
Pedro Kantor i was only using the same rhetoric that used to be used on me for not liking the prequels ;) don’t really feel that way btw. if someone wants to say they are a fan then whatever. but i do truly question if someone truly likes the entirity of star wars or only a small part of it when they say things like “i can’t enjoy star wars anymore because of the last jedi”. literally just don’t watch them and only watch/discuss the movies you do like.
@Pedro Kantor Sadly, the term real fan is no longer a slander, it actually has weight behind it. We now have Disney fanboys and Twilight fangirls in the fandom. People who don't like Star Wars, but like it because it is apart of Disney, and Disney gave them "Reylo." I think the hardest pill is that we will never have pure Star Wars again, it will always be agenda driven. But Star Wars had an amazing run under Lucas, he was a great creator who gave us a lot of good, some really cool bad, and a little too much of ugly. The only things the fans can do, is stop giving Disney their money and build on the existing canon that we already have. Star Wars will always be apart of our lives if we never let it go.
Padme was right when she said that the Jedi teachings forbade love and attachment. Anakin tries to get around this by pointing out that it teaches Compassion, which it does, however he changes the definition of Compassion from being empathetic of others, and concerned for their well-being, to "Unconditional Love", that he then uses as an umbrella term to include love and attachment ... it is his loophole to get around the Jedi teachings). Watching the OT and the Prequels, two things are clear: 1) It was the Jedi that drove Anakin to the Dark Side. 2) It is Luke's rejection of Obi-wan and Yoda's teaching (ie: the "Jedi Code"), that leads to the destruction of the Sith and the redemption of Anakin, bringing balance to the Force. The Jedi taught Luke to put aside his feelings for Han, Leia, Chewy etc. to let them die and kill his father ... he rejected their teaching and embraced his feelings and emotions, his attachment to his friends, and his love for his father, and that is why he succeeded where the Jedi failed. 10,000 fully trained Jedi Knights, embracing the teachings of the Jedi, could not accomplish what one half-trained farm boy, rejecting the Jedi Code could.
B E O W U L F and that is the point of why there never should have been a sequel trilogy. Like could teach future force users the new jedi way, finally changing the old jedi ways which had led to so many jedi turning to the dark side
it wasn't the Jedi that drove Anakin to the dark side, it was Anakin's failure to accept and follow the Jedi Code that he was trained to do from early on. Imagine you're a baseball pitcher on a team, and trained to throw strikes. Come game day you decide you would rather throw wild pitches that cost your team the game. It wasn't your team training that lost the game, but your own decision not to follow the training.
It was not the Jedi, Anakin's own lust for power, control, arrogance, and desire to save Padme at all costs is what caused him to turn to the dark side. He could not control is attachment, the exact opposite of what the Jedi preached. Luke did not reject the Jedi code when he refused to kill his father, he embraced it. He refused to give into his hatred and kill out of revenge, that's the exact thing Obi-Wan and Yoda always preached to him. He even said that he was "a Jedi like my father before me". He forgave his father which is what all Jedi should do and that forgiveness is ultimately what toppled the Sith. Luke followed the Jedi Code all the way through. People try and pain him as some sort of maverick Jedi but he was anything but. He was a very traditional Jedi are rightly so, Lucas was trying to present to us what the ultimate Jedi is in that final throne room scene.
@@jeffburnham6611 Wrong it was the jedi code that drove anekin to the dark side.The code demanded he give up on all his emotions.to have ties to nothing.In efect to be a sociopath.Thats not a healthy code to live by.Palpatine is the only one to give him any help in dealing with his fears about his fears about his wives death.That hope is why he went tot he dark side.to save his wives life.The code demanded he not care about her death.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Wrong Luke did reject the code.He did it in order to save his fathers life.if he followed the code.the he wouldnt have cared about his father at all.Lukes faith in his father.which the code forbid.Was what saved his father.
This was brilliant. Great insight regarding attachments and the rules. I think a lot of the negativity has stemmed from Luke's remarks in the Last Jedi.
I also am NOT a fan of the term "gray jedi". I like to think of jedi as Greek philosophers like Socrates and Plato in that they don't have any real answers but rather contemplations to the greater mysteries of the (universe) force. The "I know that I know nothing" philosophy, that jedi like yoda and qui-gon embody perfectly.
Thor, thank you for making this video. I am totally blown away and humbled by your knowledge of Star Wars, and specifically "The Force" itself. Your respect for the source material is evident, and inspires me to want to learn more about it. This video actually touched my heart, especially the segment about "service" to others...in my previous job I worked to be in service to others, and there was no better feeling than helping someone in need. Shouldn't we all look to the Jedi for inspiration? The only problem I have with the Jedi is their rigidity, or failure to be flexible when need be (i.e. strict age limits for potential jedi learners). Anyhow, thanks again...what a great video, perhaps your greatest yet!
Now that you've laid it all out so clearly, I've realized... I am a Jedi. Never thought of my life that way, but there it was right in the description. That seriously makes me feel pretty happy with myself. That's new. Thanks Thor.
In my opinion Anakin was the definition of a grey jedi before turning to the darkside in Episode III. The clone wars showed that Anakin Skywalker was able to cut corners in terms of the Jedi code. Couple examples is saving Ashoka from the genosion virus, killed the Space terrorist threatening to blow up the ship that Obi-wan and his 'girlfriend' was on, and choking the Bartender when getting information to find Obi-wan's 'killer' In My opinion, that's the reason why Ashoka left the order is to explore both sides of the force and how grey jedi's use both light and darkness in Balance without being a slave to both sides of the same coin
Dude you didn’t get the video at all. Just because you don’t agree on some issues with the Jedi Council doesn’t make you a “Grey Jedi” just because... Anakin was a full fledged Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order. He was no made up, “Grey Jedi”. Ashoka was a full fledged Jedi Padawan who left the order and remained committed to the LIGHT. She didn’t “pursue both sides”. That’s not Ashoka. Just because she has White sabers doesn’t make a “Grey Jedi”. Understand??
your analysis transcends star wars and speaks to the universal human condition, which is why we love star wars in the first place. great job, and thanks.
It's probably not the same as the old canon, but I've never considered gray Jedi as force users of the light and dark side. Gray Jedi use the light side just like Jedi, except that they have renounced the Order and its rules. Was not Qui-Gon Jinn called by many fans a gray Jedi for a long time? Obviously he is not one. But he distances himself from the original traditions of the Order, but still does not use the dark side. A gray Jedi only moves away from some traditions and possibly even teachings. In essence, he still remains a force user of the light side.
Before the prequels came out, I always pictired the Jedi would be less of a centralized order, and more of a lifestyle and moral code for those strong in the Force that were trained by another within. That while they had their own network as a source of accountability, they didnt have a council nor were they truly headquartered anywhere. They still had their regilar lives and dayjobs (starfighter, pilot, security guard) but on top of that, they had the duties and moral responsibilities to to preserve peace and justice. And kid of like the Sith, a Jedi Knight would take on their own apprentice once they discovered them. They werent assigned to them and they would often stick together, much like the Sith Rule of Two. It would be the Clone Wars that they all left their homes to fight, as soldiers and Knights do, and in doing so, the better warriors would rise in the ranks of the military, not automatically thrust up there because they are Jedi.
Thank you! This is long overdue, you know something is wrong when people out there actually believe that the Jedi were worse than the Sith. Somebody is confused.
In the original 2005 version of ROTS novel, there is a section during the fight on Mustafar that really simplified the Light and the Dark side mastery. Obi-Wan was given a platform to land on whereas Vader commanded a platform be given to him. Obi-Wan allowed the Force to flow through him and he just obeyed where as Vader commanded the Force to do as he wanted. The Dark side users don't show proper respect for the Force, whereas the Jedi strives to respect it. In the now non-canon novel, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Plagueis made mention that the Force has a way of pushing back.
No. The jedi relate to balance. Light, dark, life, death, pain, joy, etc. a balance in which you know that every moment will pass. The sith are not in balance, and that is why even though they in the start, are often driven by altruism of various kinds, the dark side will eventually turn them evil. Because misery loves company. The amount of people who do not understand this makes me sad.
Yes, thank you! You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I think about the Jedi. People get hung up on small misconceptions like having no emotions or enforced celibacy, and miss the whole point of the Order. Moreover, this is the time we live in - tortured anti-heroes are more popular than true heroes, so of course some people find the Light/Dark dichotomy to be boring and like the idea of a "Gray" Jedi. Too bad.
It really depends on how you want to look at it, from a story perspective, or from a lore perspective. I highly doubt Lucas was concerned with the differences between the light and dark side while filming. He was focused on presenting a good story to the public and general audience However, the fact that the “Grey Jedi” concept wasn’t Lucas’s idea doesn’t make it any less part of cannon. It added more story and depth into the franchise, teaching us that the force isn’t all black and white, but more of a scale. Characters such as Ahsoka, Bendu, Sidious, and Windu understood the balance between the force and that neither side was without its flaws. You can’t compare Jedi using the dark side to being a vegan, because there are only two sides to that concept: you are a vegan, or you are not. The force is a different story, it’s a wide scale of one’s differing connections through the many aspects of the force.
Yes, veganism is a bit of an extreme comparison. There are many intermediate points on that scale. (And tangents if you include non-humans) Vegans, vegetarians, people eating various amounts of meat and animal products. Then there's a term I came upon recently, 'flexitarian', which was kinda... Dumb. But in any event, of these, vegan is by far the most restrictive term. You can't be half-vegan, because that doesn't make sense. humans are pretty much ALL half-vegan by that definition.
While George Lucas owned SW, only what he created was canon as he is THE creator. No one else. Everything else was extra, even if it was really cool. (I’m saying his as someone who would love for Mara Jade to have been in the sequel trilogy). It is similar to how only what JRR Tolkien created in the Lord of the Rings universe is canon. No fan fiction is canon. Now what his youngest son, Christopher Tolkien, has put together from his writings is canon because JRR Tolkien put Christopher in charge. The films are interpretations, where there are changes the books decide what is canon in terms of the story. George Lucas has given many interviews on the Force, the light side and the dark side. He has spoken of love vs hate (approach to the Force and to the universe in general). Although I was a bit intrigued by the idea of grey Jedi at first, I’m going with the creator of the whole SW universe. Though Disney owns it now, they did not originally create it and have arguably wrecked what George started. Thor Skywalker has done a brilliant job in going through what George Lucas’s vision was and is.
9:37. Dude you just described Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side. This is EXACTLY how it happened with him. His ego led him to believe he could "control" it and by the end he fell completely to the dark side.
@Max because the movies went their own route. The old EU that's been around for the past 30yrs was scrapped and thrown away when Disney took over from Lucas.
If I remember correctly, In one of the novels Yoda explained that one of the reasons the Jedi Order fell and was tricked so easily was a refusal or inability to evolve and grow like the Sith had, which gave them an advantage. I think I could see ways for the Order to change while keeping true to the core tenants of being a Jedi, in similar ways that Luke implimented in the old EU.
Yes there are a lot of EU writers who "just don't get it." Honestly, does that really sound like anything Yoda would truly say? "Evil not enough we were." In the prequels, it is suggested that the Jedi are not allowed emotions, in the OT Luke was warned about negative emotions, not emotions. The Jedi were conditioned not to have attachments, but it is strong attachments that root one to the light....something or someone to care for, to not be evil.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 I know that's not what Yoda said, but my point stands....the writer was wrong. It wasn't a failure to evolve that was the down side of the Jedi...for over a thousand generations the order stood....does that sound like stagnation to you? No, the failing of the Jedi was they allowed themselves to become dogmatic and political and allowed themselves to be used as weapons in a war they should have never been apart of....because they were afraid of losing that political power and influence. Hell they even threw Ahsoka under the bus to protect that political power in The Clone Wars cartoon, which lead her to leaving the order.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 So they devolved. The cosmos is in constant change. If you don't adapt to it and prefer to stay stagnant eventually you become outdated...
Every time you use the Dark Side, the GM rolls 1D6. If he rolls less than the number of times you've used the Dark Side, you lose your character to the Dark Side and you have to create a new one. It's just not worth it.
I love it when they take the approach that the Jedi are corrupt and trying too hard to appease the senate and have lost their once pure and noble way thus are "clouded" to the ways of the force and can't see the future as Palpatine manipulates everyone
thor.. Grey jedi is actually a very easy topic to understand. They have very little if nothing to do with darkness. They aren't vegetarian meat eaters they are simply members of the jedi order who are known to argue with, disobey and push the council while staying within the jedi rules. They may disagree with the council and the rules but they still obey mostly. Jinn arguing with the council is PERFECTION in showing what a grey jedi is. He argued and disobeyed but never went to fall as to be thrown out of the order and never used the darkness and he obeyed the jedi code. Kyp durron is another perfect example. A renegade jedi knight who though disobeying Luke and the council did not fall to the dark side. This is why there is no grey jedi order or code. They are officially part of the order now there are what I call grey force users (notice there is no "jedi") that do some of what people get all hyped on but that is a whole different topic that has little to do with grey jedi. Thor, I've spent many years debating this, talking to others and pondering refining my belief and I would love to debate and discuss if you so wish. It comes down to this. one can not be a member of the jedi order if they wield darkness and are tainted or if they disregard what makes a jedi different from other force users (grey force user) such as the jedi code. You can not be jedi without the jedi code and a dedication to the light. That makes a jedi who they are. That's what people miss "without following the code" how do you be true jedi ignoring the jedi basics. It's like a doctor ignoring all their vows. I've rambled enough so I'll just say I'll debate you thor and anyone else
Shadow Zaron I think all this fits with what Thor is saying. That those Jedi who are sometimes described as “grey” never use the dark side, they are still Jedi.
Actually, Jinn did fall at one point. Or came very close to falling to the Dark Side almost permanently. I believe it is recounted in one of the novels or comics, and was caused by the death of his love interest, who happened to be another Jedi.
Incredibly well-stated. These kinds of topics are why I dig this channel. I don't think the Jedi way is flawed so much as it's just not for everyone. Qui-Gon himself said "It's a hard life". I admit freely that I would be better served being a Sith. I've never set much stock by the rules, I'm definitely a slave to my own desires and outside of my kids, I'm not bound to any allegiance and serve no one but myself. That's just how I get down.
I agree 98%. I don't think the Prequels made people question. After all there are lines in the Prequel that hint otherwise. And the Jedi not allowing marriage and this attachment is wrong. And they were hypocritical, and they feared the darkside and denied their existence till they were forced to in TPM. They were flawed, but their principles and their thoughts on emotions and love were good. Everything they stood for was great except for the marriage part, and then them not living by there own standards at times. Thanks for this video. It was a great insight, and one I forgot with age.
So............ Evidently the greatest misconception about the Jedi is that you have to be well trained to become a powerful master......... Just ask Rey. The concept of the "grey Jedi" is ridiculous. If you could use both sides of the force with no negative consequences then why aren't all Jedi/Sith grey. Why weren't Yoda or Palpatine grey. *"NUFF SAID"*
See, I don't think of a grey jedi as someone using the light and dark side of the force, I think of it as more of a light side jedi with grey morals that occasionally are things you'd expect from a dark side user.
What is your opinion about the original jedi code? And why do you think they needed to make the code more defined? "Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force."
I usually find the idea of grey, something in between, quite appealing, but here it doesn't fit so well. What distinguishes a Jedi among other Force users is the code; if you don't follow it, you are not a Jedi. Calling yourself Jedi but refusing to follow, or cherrypicking what to follow, is like eating your cake and keeping it too (meat-eating vegetarian is an awesome comparison). As for the existence of the code itself: I fully embrace it. The Jedi are endowed with great powers and could harm many if they diidn't impose those rules on themselves. There is nobility in such self-sacrifice, and it annoys me to no end when I see the Jedi compared to emotionless automatons. As you have pointed out, feelings themselves are not a problem, they only become a problem when you let them control your life. It wasn't Anakin's love for Padme that caused his downfall but its pathological nature, obsessive and possessive. He wouldn't accept her death, he wouldn't accept that she seemingly chose Obi-wan over him, and the fear and anger was what did him in. Where the Jedi might improve a bit is the use of psychology - therapy sessions would have done a great deal of good to Anakin.
Well, while we hear a great deal about how powerful the Dark Side is, about how addictive it supposedly is etc, etc. But that isn't what we SEE in those movies. We see Luke using Force Choke and in the throne room uses his rage to defeat his father, then STOPS, and throws away his light saber. Is this the reaction of someone who is addicted? Nope, don't need it, you lose, your highness. This is NOTHING like what Yoda seems TERRIFIED of how both he and Obi-Wan constantly go on and on about. Quite honestly, I think the movies are almost in universe propaganda films, trying to prop up a successful revolution that has just upset a very big apple cart. At the risk of sounding self aggrandizing, this was a theme I took on to explore, in a series of admitted fan fiction, set in the Old Republic told from the side of a Sith Lord. It was very interesting seeing the universe through that lens, how what we have all taken as all but the Tablets of the Commandments, brought down by Charlton Heston himself. And, perhaps, a way the line in the scroll of Revenge of the Sith being true. That there are heroes on BOTH sides. Taken that way, this becomes FAR less black and white and instead of implacable evil vs pure goodness, it becomes a religious schism truly the worst kind of war. And keep in mind, Darth Bane's Rule of Two came about because the Jedi waged a war of GENOCIDE. In one bit, my Sith Lord explains the Code of the Sith, on her holonet channel and she can explain it better than I can... "Greetings, my name is Darth Nyeomi Fens, Lord of the Sith. As you have come to my channel, you no doubt have questions; about The Force, about the Sith, or perhaps even yourself. You have heard of these mysterious societies, the Lords of the Sith, the Jedi Knights and you want to look behind the curtain. Well, I am happy to draw it aside for you. “The Jedi seek to master their emotions, their code teaches them to only act when at peace and emotionless. It is possible to achieve this state with extraordinary discipline and years of study, however, it is contrary to human nature. The Sith, on the other hand, embrace our emotions and through them we master ourselves, our environment and the Force itself. While we can use any emotion to do so, anger, fear and aggression are easiest to call upon, and so my order has garnered a stigma of being evil. One side says they use the so called Light Side of the Force, the others the Dark side. But these are not the true names of the Force, that is the Ashla and the Bogan, and in truth, The Force simply is; neither good nor evil and indiscriminate on how it is used. This disagreement is the root cause of dozens of wars and cost the lives of uncounted trillions.” I sighed and hug my head. “My former order had a hand in those wars, and while the code of the Sith has wisdom for all, that does not excuse our parts in that violence. That, however, is history. You wish to learn, to understand, and I will teach you. Let us begin with the Code of the Sith. "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. This is a statement whose truth is self evident. Strife is the natural order of the cosmos and moments of 'peace' an aberration, not the norm. While we may enjoy these fleeting moments, true wisdom comes from understanding that we learn best that which we are passionate about and that Peace is transitory. "Through passion, I gain strength. What do you remember of the subjects in school you disliked? Our interests, our passions bring us knowledge and in some cases, the physical strength of body, or of mind. We become strong to protect those that we care about and love. We have these emotions for a reason, channel and use them!” "Through Strength I gain Power. When you embrace your emotions, and you learn as our species learn best, you begin to understand how to advance yourself in all aspects of your life. You cease to react to what life throws at you and you begin to act of your own accord. And when you have control of your life, we call that Power.” "Through Power I gain Victory. When you have power over your own life, you assert your will on the universe, not the other way around. You are not adrift in the sea of life, your ship of self has a rudder and an engine to chart your own course. To protect and provide for those dear to you, who stirred your passion in the first place. And through this, you understand our final truth...” "Through victory my chains are broken, the Force shall free me. We are all slaves, slaves to time, to life and to fate. But as Sith we are actors, we impose our will on our surroundings, we protect those we love, we live life on our own terms and we raise our children as our defiance of time and death towards immortality. We are freed from our fears and life is ours to take and enjoy. This is what I will teach you, and there is nothing evil about it.” So, sorry for the wall of text, and I hope that makes a bit more sense. I don't think EITHER of these groups are truly 'evil'.
Omg well done to you my sith lord. You have described the real side of our darker aspects in relation to the sith code. I agree with you the sith code when properly interpreted to find passion in life To conquer our fears, to over come the chaos of our universe naturalistic laws. We can triumph. The Jedi are like a good fantasy of world peace to pretend that we are more than animalistic humans. That we can transcend our fears and emotions through stoicism approach or logic. I agree that certain aspects of the Jedi code realise that we must control our emotions but underneath all that spiritual talk we still are limited by our naturalistic behaviour.
Thanks! I am, justly I think, proud of that particular passage. When I took this on, and began researching things through out the (at the time) canon and EU, it suddenly became quite clear what was SAID about the so-called Dark Side and what was SHOWN were very, very different from each other. When I found the Code of the Sith it was obvious there is nothing intrinsically evil about the Sith, merely a disagreement on how to use the Force. This is backed up in both the former canon, and in the animated series of The Clone Wars and Rebels by Dave Filoni. I have no idea what Disney has in mind for the Force, or the Sith Order in the future, but sadly, from what I've seen, nuance, will have nothing to do with it. PLEASE prove me wrong in an Old Republic Trilogy, Benioff and Weiss!
@@eenalley well said Darth maul during the clown wars was displaying his intelligent, cunning and some what kinda side. The nightsisters are intresting as they use the Dark side without becoming psychopaths lol. I don't trust Disney with star wara. They won't produce a decent emotional story were there could be more off a grey affect within the force. They will proberly have the classic light vs dark bullshit.. "Darth Marr" from the old republic is my favourite darksider.
Ironically, I'd have to say mine would be either Darth Tyrannus, in large part do the tragic waste of an actor like Chris Lee on what amounted to a bit part or Ventress. Dooku seemed to have ginuinely noble intention in what he was doing, much expanded on in the Clone Wars series, and he was, unfortunately so blinded by his vision of how great it will be when he rebuilds the Jedi with his hand picked disciples he really didn't see that Palpatine was playing him for a sucker. Ventress, on the other hand, was like an abused child, constantly looking for stability and acceptance, never finding it. I truly wonder how things might have changed if Dooku had defied Palpatine and kept Ventress. Her story is one of the saddest in Star Wars, only really eclipsed by Anakin's fall.
Honestly, some of this I relate to. I have an addiction that I’m trying to handle that’s become a problem in my life. It’s REALLY HARD and I kinda made feel more vulnerable.
I think the prequel-era Jedi Order is not the Jedi at their prime, but so ossified and set at their ways that they can't deal with Anakin and inevitably fail. Qui-Gon Jinn is more practical Jedi in touch with real world and is considered borderline Grey because the Jedi view is so extreme. As for Grey Jedi, I think the only way to truly be like that is to become hermit and never take sides or even actions at all. The best image of this might be the Bendu in the Rebels series, who spends most of his time just being a rock. Jolee Bindo from KotOR is also represented as Grey, but I think he was only that while exiled in the Shadowlands of Kashyyyk. The dual nature of the Force is such that once you start participating, you will end up in one side or another.
Wow the way you described the Dark Side users using it as a tool reminds me of how Lu... l mean Jake sees the Force in TLJ... their failure is complete RJ didn't even understand the concept of the Jedi.
Mace Windu did use both sides and im a fan more of Lucas version. The original Je-dies practiced both Light and Dark. And then split. To much to cover but yes Mace Windu used vaapad. A form that relied heavy on the dark side of nature with also pulled your dark side energy away. Confirmed by Lucas this all this was.
I believe the grey jedi, or a similar neutral force, could be used intelligently as outcasts, who need to constantly thread a dangerous path and use the powers of darkness only in extreme situations, and at great costs, with the constant fear of falling to temptation. This way they could be interesting characters, but I am no expert, so perhaps its already like this.
We already saw this story with Luke. He tried used hate to try to defeat Vader but in the end returned to the light and forgave him and because of that palpatine was defeated and balance was restored. We also saw it with anakin when palpatine convinced him could use the dark side to save padme. Look how that turned out.
This was an amazing video. You really understand Lucas' vision for what Star Wars is and what it stood for. I've watched your videos for months now but it was this video that made me subscribe. Ps. Your explanation PERFECTLY walks through Anakin's story.
Basically Palpatine is such a great villain that, in Episode III, not only he made Anakin see the Dark Side as good, but a decent part of the fandom too. Anyway, to better understand SW's philosophy, I'd look directly to one of its sources: The Lord of the Rings. The ancient Sith are Melkor/Morgoth. The post-Darth Bane Sith, and especially Sidious, of course, are Sauron. Darth Vader is half-Sauron, half-Witch King of Angmar, and even half-Smeagol/Gollum. Count Dooku is of course Saruman. So the perfect Jedi should basically follow Gandalf's philosophy: always show pity and compassion when you can, and NEVER presume that you are wise enough to see all ends. On the other hand, the Dark Side is the One Ring: it tempts even the noblest of us with great power, but no one - not even extremely skilled good guys like Gandalf and Yoda - can use it without eventually giving in to its dark will. A will that wants nothing but to devour all that is good and pure. So yeah, the Gray Jedi make no sense at all. By definition, the Dark Side is something you can't actively use for long periods without falling victim to it.
Fred Marble The problem with the Lord of the rings analogy is it also has sources as the basis of its theology. Catholicism being the biggest one for J.R.R. Tolkien. This makes sense because Lucas understood basic narrative storytelling which you can draw a heck of a lot from when you study both eastern and western theology’s.
@@longforgotten4823 Well, we're talking about a saga that ends with the most evil guy in the Galaxy going to the Force version of Heaven because he repented at the last minute. So yes, of course Tolkien also had his sources, including his Catholic beliefs, but they don't contradict what we see in Star Wars. I mean, we all know who Anakin's virginal conception takes inspiration from, right?
I think people forget also that it wasn’t all the Jedi’s fault that Palpatine was able to gain more power during the clone wars. War is a time when democracy’s are the most vulnerable to being overthrown. We have seen that during the Civil War Lincoln was allowed to gain more power and during the war in Afghanistan Bush was allowed to pass the Patriot Act, a clearly unconstitutional bill. Unfortunately, in times of war unconstitutional actions are let off the hook because it’s deemed “a necessity of war” and all the moves that Palpatine makes to eventual create the Empire could happen in America or other democratic countries. It’s up to all of us to stay vigilant of actions and leaders who threaten our democracy. Democracy’s are hard won and kept, complacency and looking for the easy way out instead of negotiation and compromise leads to dictatorship.
Windu doesn't really use the dark side, he connects to his opponent's dark side and weaponizes it against them, when he uses the dark side, he's actually already falling to the dark side of the Force, this already clouded his judgment, I once liked to call him a Dark Jedi
@Max it's not confirmed he did, it many people assume he used it against Palpatine or at least during the last days of the Republic which is how he managed to quickly and aggressively crush Grievous chest in 2003 Clone Wars, but if he used it, then it surely did start to corrupt him, well it already corrupted him like prequel Era Jedi, except that he's obviously one of the more corrupted ones
9:20 sounds like quite some ideas taken from Lord Momin who was introduced in some of the more recent Vader comics, he believed that sith should serve the dark side to reach their true potential, not seek to harness it, because this leads only to self-destruction, to some degree Momins views were almost like Jedis but directed towards dark side Also, I would say prequels view of the ways of Jedi is a lot based on the view of the central character of prequels, Anakin, which are influenced by Palpatine who done a lot of work to undermine Jedi authority in the republic so no one would be against order 66, but also, there is a chance that such misunderstanding of Jedi ways was common among lower ranks, who still couldn't truly immerse themselves in this idea, and very often these were folks who were choosing the different paths, after all, there is a reason wh ytere were only 20 "Lost Ones" the Jedi Masters who left the order, in entire history of the order
In my mind the story of Anakin and Padme proves exactly how far the prequel era Jedi had fallen from their true path. Suppose rather than simply forbidding such relationships, and driving them underground, they had instead created an environment where it was allowed and Jedi were encouraged to talked openly about their emotional struggles. Imagine Anakin had been able to talk freely with other Jedi about his fears for Padme, without fear of judgement. Where he could have been trained in how to love Padme without becoming possessive or attached. How differently would everything have played out? The Jedi teaching was (correctly) that they should avoid attachment and possessiveness, the Jedi's solution was therefore to ban any kind relationship where attachment might arise. This is utterly doomed to failure, you don't overcome negative emotions by banning the things that might trigger them, you overcome them by learning to be still when they arise, to not be swept away in them. It is a clear example of the prequel era Jedi entirely missing what the actual path of the Jedi really was. In my mind it was this above anything else that led to their downfall.
"Control over it (The Force) is a illusion" ~ Thor Skywalker. You're best examples kids? *Darth's: Sion/Nihilus/Traya.* Even as beings with parts of the Power of a God: each one: was OWNED and in their own way: killed: by the very Power...that made two of them near immortal. Sion regulated to endles torture: but not strong enough to overcome Nihilus or Traya: trapped: as a Immortal Servant: forever. Nihilus...became the forbidden Sith Technique: Traya was naive enough to train him in. By the end: Nihilus' desires to Rule died like the man: and he became...the darkside within robes: Hunger: with no substance. Whatever original goals he had to conquer...destroyed: for the sake of feeding. The other so subtlety powerful: she could have destroyed the Force: Whills and all... With a single galactic Level Technique. But even Traya...is a broken: suicidal zombie...marching through the end of her life...waiting for you... *To kill her.*
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Question - "Surely there is harmony in both the light and the darkside? A way to control both and not be consumed by evil?' Matt Martin [Lucasfilm Story Group] 2018 - *"That sort of goes against what Star Wars is all about. The Darkside corrupts."*
The Grey Jedi Code is a fan-made concept that took from the Sith and Jedi codes. It has no relevance to the greater universe, and is not only a mockery of what Grey Jedi really are but also a perversion. So I would recommend not bringing it up. While it is important to know and note what George Lucas has said about the nature of the Jedi and the Force, and it also important to note that the Star Wars universe has grown beyond his initial vision. I would also like to point out that that growth has been guided by his hand. Nothing would be made without his approval. If it was something that he really liked then he would take a more direct approach in that guidance by providing more and helpful ideas. So, really, if fans want to get an authority on the Grey Jedi then I think that they should go to the people who best wrote about them such as the people who created and wrote about Kyle Katarn; the developers of Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, KOTOR I and II as well as others. The description you gave on the fall to the Dark Side sounds a lot like how addicts perceive themselves. Very thoughtful of you. I think a topic for you to cover would be that of Revan as he is the pinnacle of what many believe to be a Grey Jedi. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter; whether he falls under that view or if he is viewed as a true Jedi. There is a saying that spoken by those who put value into the Grey Jedi which is, "Those who have touched the darkness are the best equipped to overcome it." To those people, they believe this phrase enhances their view that Grey Jedi should be the ones to fight the Dark Side as they believe they can use both the Light and the Dark. As Revan was one who was both a Jedi and a Sith, they believed him to be a Grey Jedi. However, with your addict comparison in mind, it seems more likely that this phrase is relating to how a former addict can be the best person to help other addicts overcome their problems.
i totally agree, & they were still mostly great jedi, but were lost in many ways too so i love it more & more because it makes you think about it. its not exactly easy to even make opinions for yourself, but once you see it, you see it. they were great ppl that failed. its a tragedy story and they werent bad guys but lost a certain strength in themselves almost. idk ultimately thats just my view but i tend to see it in ways youve described.
I think the best possible presentation of the Jedi Order is how its presented in the Jedi Knight games. They use the Force, but also let it guide them. They use it for attack and defense, they wield both light and darkness in equal shares and (with a few exceptions) it works!
Firstly, "Jedi" is not a state of being, or a philosophical status. It is the name of an order of Force users. If a Jedi starts using the DS, he does not become anything else, until he is kicked out of that order. "Jedi" is not a set of rules. although they certainly have them. It is not like being a Christian who stops believing thus not being an actual Christian. A Jedi wouldn't use the DS, because they were not taught the dark side, or any techniques that use it. Its like asking "If a Jedi starts using Kung Fu, does he cease to be a Jedi?" No.
Several Jedi knew and occasionally even used Dark Side techniques. It didn't always work out well for them, but it did happen on occasion, and while the Order wasn't exactly fine with it, they were still pragmatic enough to understand that, very rarely, the best way to serve the Light was to dip into the Dark
@@talltroll7092 See, that implies that either those individual Jedi either learned those techniques from somewhere, or that using the Dark Side is at least somewhat intuitive. Jedi are taught to use the force through tranquility, Sith, their passions. Where would a Jedi even begin to use a Dark Side technique, something that must be learned and practiced? It would be a bit like going to a martial art school and having them say, "Ok, first lesson, start breathing through your asshole." Unless, a Jedi was using the force the "normal" way, and began to lose his temper, and suddenly realizes, "Hey, I'm breathing through my asshole." It would be a bit alien to you unless someone showed you how.
@@mikeborsum2953 The Jedi Order possessed quite an extensive collection of Sith / Dark Side artifacts and holocrons, which were available for study, although access to them was quite strictly controlled and monitored. They needed to have at least some awareness of DS techniques to be able to recognise and effectively resist them, as even in the "post-Sith" world of the prequels, there were the odd fallen Jedi, places strong in the Dark Side, even a few alternate Force users like the Dathomiri Nightsisters. Even the most dogmatic Light-sider has to acknowledge the value of "know your enemy". A lot of what makes any technique Dark (or Light, for that matter) is how it is used, anyway. Obi-Wan using the Mind Trick to get through the blockade into Mos Eisly is literally him enslaving the will of another to his own will using the Force. It's not Dark because he's using it to avoid unnecessary conflict. He could also have used it to set up his own little Empire out on the Rim if he'd wanted, presumably. There's also the scene RotJ where Luke seems to use Force Choke on the Gammorean guards in Jabbas Palace. That's generally considered a pretty Dark Side technique, but Luke doesn't use it to kill, just to intimidate a couple of dimwitted guards who likely aren't bright enough to understand less subtle approaches
I'd say thats debatable. Luke could have used a mind suggestion on them. "You will let me pass" etc. He didn't. He force choked them. The reason for that was actually intentional, as is why Luke wore black the whole time. He was dangerously close to the dark side the whole time. Until the end, when his jacket flap comes open and underneath was white. The color of his clothes was meant to be symbolic. He manages to stop himself just short of killing Vader while using his anger. But as for techniques and whatnot, let me ask you this. If you're a bad guy with a blaster or detonator aimed at innocents, and I'm a Jedi, who is 20 feet away. Even using the Force, I probably can't reach you to physically stop you from pulling that trigger, or pushing that button. I blast you with Force Lightning, killing you. Was that "Good"? Was there absolutely no other method or ability that would have accomplished the same? Or did I just use a Sith technique to kill you, and am trying to justify it's use, and why I studied it? Would it have been the "will of the Living Force" to attempt to stop you, using those methods available to me, without any Sith powers, and if some people die, so be it?"
I like your analogy of the dark side to addiction and the in depth to what a life would be like. Videos like this is what I miss in star wars it seems a lot of videos are 3 mins long about a ship and that's all the lore we get but this gets you to think and wonder about what's next and what was. Thank you
love listeing to your videos... At min x when you concluded that mace might have been able to utilize dark side power without ever falling to it but many trying it fell I was anticipating the video to cut to Count Dooku, who used to be a member of the Jedi Order and voluntarily left because he became disillusioned with the Jedi Order, the Republic, and the Galactic Senate's corruption. He accepted Lord Sidious' offer in order to eliminate the corruption and to gain the power to make sure of his people's wellbeing. Just before he died to Anakin's lightsabers, he realized he had fallen and had been a tool all along (and possibly, that Anakin was going down the same road.)
High Heel Knight what does it meaningfully add to the universe that makes it good or worthwhile? Like, how does introducing them make the story better when he could have just left the force the mystery it should have remained.
I'm neither a fan nor a critic of them. They served their only real purpose, which was to allow Qui-Gon to quickly discover Anakin was unusual. Beyond that, they are easy enough to ignore if one doesn't like them.
The Sith remind me of St. Augustine's story about original sin. He talked about the worst thing he'd ever done and it was when he was a kid. He and some friends went out and stole a bunch of fruit from a farmer's field. Then they threw the fruit away to some pigs or something. The act itself was completely evil, as evil as an act could be, because it was done ONLY for the purpose of doing something wrong. To Augustine, it was the peak of sinfulness and a complete perversion of human nature. The Sith are just like Augustine in this childhood story that scarred him as an adult when he realized what he'd done and why. The Jedi Code was meant to be a boundary and guide for force users, a code to live by that kept them from perverting their power and using it to harm people. The Sith, on the other hand, exist only to be evil and gain more power. It's just a circle: be evil, get more powerful, be even more evil, get even more powerful. They are an utter corruption of the Force because they only exist to do evil for evil's sake. It's their philosophy. The Jedi started equating Sith = Dark Side and built up an entire infrastructure to protect and shield force sensitives from the dark side because of this correlation the Jedi created between the Sith and Darkness. That's why it was the Sith that needed to be destroyed in order to bring balance to the Force. The people who follow the new canon and believe the prophecy means there should be NO Sith OR Jedi are misunderstanding the entire situation. Just as Sith does not equal Dark, Jedi does not equal Light. There's a fundamental difference in the two philosophies which is why the Sith had to be eliminated in order to bring the Force back into balance. The Sith teachings were a fundamental perversion of the Force, the Jedi teachings were not.
Unlike the Sith who only used deception when necessary, (specifically after the rule of two was created) they were still more open and honest about their motivations and beliefs than the jedi were. The only thing I agree with the jedi is to detach yourself from emotions, and not make choices based soley on your emotions in the moment, (and in turn that is the only place I disagree with the Sith) but the comparison between the two codes reveals whose being honest, and who is lying.
@@goodmind4940 but our subjective views cannot compete with objective reality, there is a point when we must separate ourselves from our principles, and get our hands dirty.
Good point on the confusing nature of the term “Grey Jedi”. What should we call them instead... the Bendu? Middle-users? or... Wielders of the purple??? (jk lol)
“Made up and not real” always works for me... They aren’t an order, cult, lifestyle, or anything. Just made up fan fiction because they want to be a Jedi but have cool dark side powers.
Peace is a lie! There is only passion! Through passion I gain strength Through strength I gain power Through power I gain victory My chains are broken, the force shall free me
I cannot help but to notice a connection between the Jedi way and Christianity. As you've said the Jedi are supposed to be the servants of the force, just as Christians are supposed to be the servants of God. Just like the Jedi are supposed to be listening to the will of the force and serve it, and only act upon it's will, so a Christian is supposed to listen to the will of God through the Holy Spirit, and act to do whatever it tells us. However, just as the Jedi order had become to strict at the time of the prequels and the Jedi stopped listening to the will of the force, so have many churches and many Christians become too religious and have forgotten to listen to the will of God. Far too many Christians are only practicing Christianity as a religion and they have never experienced the power of God personally. Too many people pray before bed and before meals and go to church on Sunday, but forget to practice compassion, forgiveness, and to love their neighbor, and they forget to worship God with their everyday actions. Furthermore, they forget that prayer is supposed to be a 2 way conversation with God, and they just ask and ask for themselves and forget to ask God what He wants us to do for Him. They ignore the fact that God wants a personal relationship with us, that He wants to use us and that miracles are sill happening on modern day. If we are obedient and listen to Him, He will use us, and we will be seeing the supernatural in our natural lives. (Well, you guys can decide to believe this last bit or not, I understand if you don't believe it now, but I really hope you do see it some day) Often times people ask me, why I don't swear, drink, or want to have sex before marriage, and the answer is that the joy that comes from serving God and following his ways is way greater and more satisfying than any of these smaller pleasures that only last for a few minutes or hours. As you said, the life of a Jedi is hard. It is hard to put your own pleasures aside and to give your self away for the service of the greater good, but it is WAY WAY WORTH IT.
@wespozo Well, I beg to differ. I'll tell you something, I have so much faith in my God that I believe that if you call upon His name (Jesus), He will show himself to you. Comment if He did. I understand people's disbelief since it's so rare to see God's presence in this socoety due to religion. But I'm telling you He's real and I've seen His power. I understand that I'm just some kid on the internet and that I could be just making claims but seriously, if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him.
@@citlalicervantes6498 you might be right to some extent but GOD does not have flesh or bones or skin. HE is made of pure blinding light, HE talks to us through signs, and not face to face. IT is said that once Prophet Moses out of his curiosity asked GOD that he wanted to see Gods face but GOD warned him that if HE were to show HIS face, then Prophet Moses wont be able to bear looking upon HIS GLORIOUS FACE, but still Prophet Moses persisted and so GOD had no choice but to fulfill the wish of HIS servant. It is said that when GOD revealed HIMSELF in his Glorious form of not bones not flesh not skin but in the form of pure blinding light, that PRophet Moses was not able to bear the extreme and pure white light, he was blinded and ultimately fell unconscious, it is said during that time everything in the vicinity had turned to dust, and when PRophet Moses came to be he immediately fell to the ground and asked for forgiveness and repented....... GOD having a form are just tales and myths created by people who dont understand WHO GOD in reality is, beacuse IF GOD were ever to descend upon the earth in all HIS magnificent glory then all wars and hunger and injustices would end but we should understand one thing and that the galaxy as a whole was created beacuse of SATANS challenge to GOD himself, and it was SATAN himself who had turned the wheels towards the creation of earth through deception and deceptive move he made on Adam and Eve which in turn made Adam and Eve to have bodies of flesh....
The beautiful thing about Star Wars is that there are so many possible theories and viewpoints on every aspect. People can have different views on the Force and what balance is and find evidence to justify that. There's the viewpoint of Vergere from NJO: Traitor, that there is no light or dark side. There is only the Force, and the Force is one, that the Force doesn't take sides because it doesn't have sides. "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion - but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness - true greatness of any kind requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind. If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it, but you do. The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one inside your own heart." There is the philosophy of Kreia, who believed that the Force was not some benevolent thing and that the constant wars between Jedi and Sith would tear the galaxy apart. Kreia always emphasized in KOTOR 2 (which is an amazing game that discusses the thematic question: "What is the Force?") that a person's internal strength and will was more important than their strength in the Force. "I hate the Force, I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance when countless lives are lost." What she says here is true, because in order to return balance to the Force, millions and billions of people die in the Clone Wars, Anakin turns to the dark side and kills tens of thousands of Jedi, and an Empire rises for twenty five years and a civil war is fought that destroys countless other lives. Then there are those who see balance as a balance between the Living Force and the Unifying/Cosmic Force, and that the Jedi fell because they abandoned love as a form of the light, when in fact love is a part of the Living Force's light side and that Anakin was meant to humble the Jedi and show them that love is the answer to the darkness, as it was his love for his son, his attachment to him, that defeated Vader and saved the Jedi. This is why Qui-Gon was so important, as he was a follower of the Living Force, while Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council followed the Unifying Force. Had Qui-Gon lived when Anakin was receiving nightmares about Padme dying, he would have told him to be mindful of the Living Force and to not let one's vision of the future affect the present. Remember, Padme was never in any danger until Anakin took the dark path and choked her. This is the beauty of Star Wars, everyone can have their own opinion and it will often be valid in some way, shape, or form. To those of you who have read this whole thing, I hope you have a great day, and may the Force be with you.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
Thor,
I've said it before and I'll say it again: you are a very intelligent and thoughtful individual. Your comparison of abuse of the dark side to addiction is SPOT ON. I hope that if any of your followers are experiencing addiction in any form, they may realize it started out as one being in control... before they became servants of their addiction. Props to you, sir! Well stated!
Absolutely. If anyone out there is struggling with addiction of any kind, I implore you to get help. Hell, I'll gladly try to find you help myself if you feel like you have nowhere else to turn.
Actually the drug thing is real the force stuff is science fiction based of real stuff and stories mixed with magic/ fantasy
Rigel Spikes as someone with a past in substance abuse, I legitimately find wisdom in the dichotomy of the light and dark and the philosophies of the sith and Jedi. For example “if” there is no emotion, there is peace. It’s not to repel emotion it is to make peace within yourself.
...and Samuel L. Jackson had no other intention with the purple light saber than to be able to single himself out in a busy action scene. He just wanted to be able to find the purple light saber and say "there I am". He said as much in an interview.
I hope you don’t mind me commenting my opinion but I will say I don’t like how mace windu had a purple lightsaber in the movie only because he said he wanted one because if he was allowed to have the color lightsaber he wanted than he should have let the other Jedi use the color lightsabers they wanted but otherwise there shouldn’t have been that one exception because I think it was absolutely ridiculous but I feel like Star Wars in a bad way is too all over the place and that’s what I don’t like about it and why I feel that way it’s a long story
@@michaelverdon7252speak ur truth michael v!
Grey Jedi are hypothetically just rogue Jedi, not under the Council’s authority, at least according to the KOTOR games.
that's how a jedi would describe it.
As the Jedi Council tends to be very conservative and believe their authority to be absolute, they tend to view others who don't subscribe to them as either rogue or Grey Jedi. That is the definition that I would apply to that term but it can also mean those Jedi who have gone into hiding not just to escape death but also to escape the responsibility of listening to the Force and to those in need. Jake Skywalker is pretty much the primary example of a Grey Jedi while he isn't referred to as such, his actions define it that way.
They are problem childs who need of a clever and resourceful master with a lot of patients. They can just as easily represent the best of what a Jedi should be in some areas as their are to represent the worse. To the point where the Order probably has a permanent unit dedicated to preforming regular cost vs benefit reviews for the more difficult of them. At some point in their service the Council would probably have way whether or not to give one the boot, if they don’t decide to quit on their own.
more or less. I believe they still respond and obey the council but not all the time. They tend to bend rules and tend to disobey. That's all. Members of the order who argue and push the council
@@GAdmThrawn only a sith deals in absolutes
I always imagined that starting to use the Dark Side is like starting to abuse a drug.
"Just this one time!" And before you know it, you lost control and "It's too late for me, my son..."
That's pretty much what Yoda said.
Somewhat. It's the sole use of the Dark Side, and nothing but the Dark Side, that leads you down a path to evil. The Jedi, would rather, just to play it safe, would prefer to steer clear of the Dark Side completely. The problem is, to achieve balance you must draw on the both Dark and the Light equally. That is what balance is, both Light and Dark.
@@lukerope1906 you must embrace it as a part of you and think of the greater good as the priority
Maybe, I dunno, force choke the wifes?
@@lukerope1906 "It is such a quiet thing to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it." Kreia
To me, what you said here fits perfectly into the Kreia quote above. Someone who believes they can draw on the dark and light simultaneously will often cause them to fall to the dark and not know it. The dark side is so corruptive that each time you use it, it gets harder and harder to refuse it and will often cause the user to become twisted and evil. A prime example of this is Jacen Solo from Legends, who willingly began to use the dark side in an attempt to stop the countless wars that raged across the galaxy and kept setting a "bottom line" for the amount of the dark side he would use. Problem is, every time he passed that limit, Jacen changed it, refusing to believe that he had fallen.
The only way to prevent this would be to cut yourself completely off from the galaxy, become apathetic to others and the galaxy. As long as light and dark exist, there can never be harmony, only chaos.
The dark side is the imbalance in the Force. In the Mortis arc of the Clone Wars, which many use to justify this whole "equal parts Light and Dark is balance" theory, the Force on Mortis is thrown out of balance by the Son, who is the embodiment of the dark side. And when the Father claims that balance has been restored, it is because the Son was killed by Anakin. In other words, the destruction of the dark side brought balance. This also lines up with George Lucas' original philosophy on the Force, that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance in the Force, and their destruction caused by Anakin restored balance to the Force.
Personally, I always believed that the ideals of the Jedi weren't inherently good or bad, just like any other religion, but instead that it slowly became extreme in its own way.
As you explained, it's perfectly fine to craft your life around the idea of constant service to others--you can choose how you live--just don't try to force it upon others. In fact, I see the Old Jedi Order by the time they fell as being essentially fundamentalists who take every tenet of their religion as literally as possible with no margin for alternate interpretations, leading to members leaving the Order for one reason or another(ie. The Lost Twenty). This nature would naturally make those who sought their own interpretations to find some other avenue to understand the Force, and this is where the Dark Side comes in with its seductive ways.
As you said, the Dark Side is like an addiction, and just like an addiction, it could simply begin with curiosity, if it's _really_ as bad as everyone says, a forbidden fruit as it were, that very quickly leads one down a path that they very well may never return from. However, at the same time, also like an addiction, there are still ways that people can help them kick the habit despite what others had done, and in fact are still as rare and miraculous as it sometimes is in real life. How do I know this? Anakin Skywalker.
Anakin was brought into the religion of the Jedi at an age too old to be fully indoctrinated with their sometimes fundamentalist ideals, and thus was able to have a more open mind toward alternate avenues of understanding the Force--He was the one to bring up the _supposed_ hypocrisy between Jedi having to be compassionate to everyone, yet not allowed to show love. As such, when he began to feel later in life that he couldn't completely reconcile himself with the Jedi teachings, Sheev "The Senate" Palpatine sneaked in and began to whisper sickly sweet promises about those "unnatural" abilities of the Dark Side, and we know how that ended.
But therein lies the rub: Anakin's own interpretation of the Force had him marry Padmé and sire children, namely his son Luke. When Luke faced Anakin, now Darth Vader, on Bespin, the boy refused his father's offer to rule alongside him, instead confronting his mentors about his father's true fate. Just like his father, Luke became a Jedi far too old to be completely indoctrinated, and thus very easily formed his own interpretation of the Force, but was still able to see the flaws inherent in using the Dark Side, and thus faced Vader on Endor with the only goal of saving his father.
Luke did this despite both Obi-Wan and Yoda insisting that the only way to save the galaxy was to kill Vader, as he was so far gone that he couldn't possibly come back to the light. Luke saw the truth of it, and to the bitter end refused to kill Vader, even after briefly losing himself to his anger and destroying Vader's sword arm. When Luke was given the chance to make the killing blow, the one his Jedi masters nigh demanded he make, he instead cast aside his lightsaber and stood tall in defiance against the most powerful Sith in recent memory.
In the end, it wasn't the teachings of the Jedi that lived in their white knight Luke that saved the galaxy from Palpatine's Empire--It was the love and compassion in the heart of the recovered addict Anakin that killed the empire, destroyed the Sith, and brought balance to the Force, just as the prophecy had foretold so many years before. The prophecy was indeed misread, but not quite in the way the fundamentalist Jedi Order had thought.
DUDE you got it, man
Execlekltnt) Excellent analysis!
Very well said!
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Very well said. I think cutting Luke's immense contributions out of the equation to satisfy the prophesy is unfortunate, though. It was his unwavering, seemingly unconditional love and compassion that stirred this reciprocation in his father, after all.
Qui Gon was the only "true" Jedi.
And Fulcrum Ahsoka!!
Disagree. For one thing, if it was the Force's will that Anakin was the Chosen One, Qui-Gon wouldn't have intervened when Watto rolled the chance cube.
@@PadawanOfChrist Ahsoka is a Rogue Jedi to be honest. She serve the light but not the Jedi code.
@@RicardoAGuitar Qui Gon would have trained Anakin rather the Jedi disapproved or not.
@@RyanTheDark That doesn't address what I said at all.
Tbh the gray Jedi idea was thought of probably because the people that watched star wars grew older and got bored of easily distinguishable good and evil. This was just the easiest way to bring some conflict and new concepts into a story.
As the writers have chosen the easiest route, i guess you could call them sith ;)
The concept of the Gray Jedi was mostly birthed in the video game Knights of the Old Republic. Star Wars fans liked the idea of having dark side powers without the consequences that come with them. Ever since that game fans have been trying to single out characters in the Star Wars lore as Gray Jedi.
It seems people like the idea of grey jedi because they think the dark side powers are cool but they dont want to be called sith. In reality they are sith deluding themselves
They're just Jedi that didn't fall into the influence of the Sith yet, however they ended up failing
andrew seeber I always thought of Gray Jedi as Ashoka during Rebels. She wasn’t acting like a deluded sith, but she did say was no longer a Jedi.
@@kalamari1611 She was simply an Jedi that wasn't apart of the Jedi order. She still followed their beliefs for the most part, expect when she tried to get revenge but she never did it again.
Having been a Star Wars fan since the 70s, I feel like that the entrance of Daoist principles into the Western collective culture has resulted into the Dark side being conflated with Chaos and the light side being a rep of Order. Daoism asks you to walk the line between Chaos and Order and so fans believe that a Jedi must walk the line between light and dark, but this fails into consideration the fact that the Dark side has been portrayed as inherently malicious while Daoist chaos just is.
A better analogy would perhaps be of fear and courage from classical myth. Gilgamesh, Hector, Bellerophon, Beowulf, they all succumb to fear from time to time, but their fear is only a prelude to their mastery of it and ultimately a prelude to courage. We see Luke undergoing through this time and again in the OT, which makes sense given how Luke’s arc is based on Campbell’s writings.
The Prequels however highlight what happens when fear is not a prelude to courage. It becomes corruptive and corrosive becoming eventually a bringer of tyranny.
I see the force simply as how the Romans saw Grāvitās. A force sensitive is simply someone with the capacity for being a person of myth with the capacity for being a hero. Whether you succumb to fear and run as Hector did before Achilles slew him or hold onto your courage come what may as Odysseus was able to do is simply your choice.
I think that describes it beautifully.
i actually prefer viewing the force in terms of taoist philosphy and i think it's very helpful to give context to the overall nature of the force.... the force isnt good or bad, right or wrong, it just is, its both good and bad, right and wrong at once, the difference emerges in the way in which each individual chooses to view and interact with the force, where the jedi are pracitioners of balance, exertion through relaxation and achieving synchronicity with the force, dark side users are using the force in a destructive way, for purposes that are intrinsically destructive, the only ultimiate outcome being destroying everything around and within you, like vader, until his last gasp relaxing and allowing the force to flow through him and with him, where he achieved final peace...
whereas, luke in tlj, relaxing his body and mind so much, allowing himself to enter such a meditative state and synchronicity with the force he was able to transcend time and space projecting his essence to crate for a constructive and positive purpose, saving his friends... kylo was fooled and couldn't understand what luke was doing because he was consumed with destructive energy, hate, rage, vitriol and while that made him strong, only in that moment and only to a certain extent, no match for luke who was at that point essentially the force incarnate, the ultimate epitome of exertion through relaxation.....
anyway, this context has allowed me to enjoy the stories more fully, imo and i think it enhances the viewing experience for sure....
@@thespeedofchillax6691 👏🙋👍 well done jedi master, it's also based on stoicism, equilibrium.
In many ways I also think it is a constant battle we all have within, when reasoning with our mind vs our heart, or our natural instincts & our civiliced rationality, a wee bit dualistic, but I don't think the Force is dualistic, but we are in our nature.
Carl Jung speaks of different archetypes, & one interesting called the "Shadow", self, which sounds like the dark side, only it can be integrated in our self for bringing balance & use that power for good, instead of fighting it, try harnessing/channel it for good.
There are different "intelligences/forces" within us. We act on it due to the way we interpret their reasoning, in the end my belief is that we succumb to the powerful wisdom of the heart
@@UniqueGeekFreak In the novelization of Revenge of the SIth Obi Wan has a line that I think is excellent. He says in response to Windu telling him that he senses the Dark Side surrounding Palpatine and even Akakin "is there not something of the Dark Side around all of us, even you Master"? That should really have been included in the movie.
I think that's the objection I have to some people who claim that only weak or stupid people fell. Nope, I think one of the messages was that anyone can fall. Even the best of people, because we all have that capacity within us.
I think the reason we question the Jedi is because we ultimately see them through Anakin’s eyes in the prequels. The older he got the more he distrusted and questioned the Jedi way.
He was inducted into the order at an unusually late age. Told by the Jedi themselves that he may very well be the chosen one foretold to bring balance to the Force. And Palpatine made absolute certain to worm his way into becoming one of Anakin's most trusted confidants where he could influence him over time, especially during the Clone War.
I don't agree that it's just Anakin's eyes. The Jedi were corrupt which had been established throughout the other movies.
So the Force made Annikin an orphan brutally killing his mother? The Force made Annikin kill the younglings? The Force made Annikin into Vader? The Force then waited until luke randomly met OBwon? The Force made kyber crystals so powerful that they can destroy a planet?
@@Insider887 explain Ahsoka.
@@Insider887 So the order that abducts children and basically enslaves them until they themselves can become "masters" isn't corrupt? Seriously?
I think the fundamental problem with the Jedi that lead their fall is fear. In particular, fear of the dark side. Now I am not saying that they should use the Darkside or following its teachings, but alot of they're more objectionable rules seem to be based upon the idea of a avoiding it altogether as opposed to acknowledging it, making peace with it, but not falling to it and achieving balance that way.
The dark vs light are concepts only possible by people, a tree can't be light nor can a beast be dark, they both just are of their nature. A lion killing a gazelle is not evil. We try to cast their motives into a carbonite mold. Is a tree of the light side still good if made into weapons for murder?
Also, I would say their problem was that in refusing to acknowledge it altogether is that they did not allow people to recognize it, or learn how to combat it. I think that's why so many Jedi did fall, in spite of these teachings (like 95% of the Sith started out as Jedi). They did not or could not recognize the signs of temptation, they could not see they were being manipulated or lied to, and they sometimes have motives that were entirely good.
There is a story in Legends of Jeacen Solo, the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia who ends up falling to the Dark Side, ironically, as a result of his desperate attempt to *not* do so, and to avoid a prophecy which says he will.
Once,long ago,the first ancestors of the Order studied both sides of the Force.
I think that's how it should be,really.
Good point. I always thought the Jedi were fine and it was just misunderstood by Anakin and later the fans. Maybe I'm blind, but I never took it as them losing their way they were just shortsighted, just as any of us can be shortsighted.
@cocharles563 that's not a very good comparison here, one many animals kill for more then just for food. Chimps have violent wars, cats have caused many bird and Lizard species to go extinct in North America due to over hunting, and they play with their food, sometimes before its dead. Lions and hyenas kill each other just due to Hating each other. They don't eat each other. Dolphins will grape other animals. Mallards are known to grape female ducks. Tree has no Consciousness so it can't really hold any morality, it doesn't think about it'd actions. Where as humans and animals think about and process their actions and choose, to different degrees depending on the species.
"Our order is sworn to serve. Often we must sacrifice what we most value for the good of others. This is what it means to be a Jedi."
And a fool
KOTOR quote?
@@GAdmThrawn Yes, I think the quote is from the Darth Bane series(Rule of Two). I'm not certain but I guess it was said by Master Farfalla.
@@bane4416 Master Farfalla, the Jedi with the better pasta
People also seem to think that the issues that the Jedi order was having towards the end of the clone warsare issues that would have been present throughout their entire history, instead of issues that seem to crop up after effectively 1,000 years of not having an explicit enemy. If you don't have a clear-cut example of something to oppose, it's hard to explain why something is so bad. of course, we have Papa Palpatine doing his stuff in the background making everything worse as well, but the issues would have been there regardless of his machinations.
The scene that perfectly captures the error of the Jedi code is the Anakin and Joda therapy session, Anakin went seaking help, got a preaching and nothing more.
Anakin was lying to Yoda and the rest of the Order when he went seeking council. You can't exactly blame Yoda for being vague, but even then his advice to Anakin was correct. If he had just accepted that everyone dies eventually and that's okay, Anakin would have never been bound to his miserable fate.
@@Marshall_Thompson yep
So just be a sociopath?
@@cocharles563 who said that? They had difference between have a close person who's dying and Anakin who have seen a FUTUR who can potentially happen but potentially DON'T happen
@@Marshall_Thompson IMO it's not about distributing blame, still I think Yodas reaction was horrifying. I liked Pop Culture Detectives analysis of this: th-cam.com/video/tUPD1w78D5I/w-d-xo.html
With this video, I thought i would get different perspective, so I watched it and the yoda scene again. I still disagree. Yoda didnt try to listen and understand at all, he asked some closed questions to then give some vague advice. I'm not a professional counselor, but already did some studying in this field and I don't know a single form of modern therapy/counseling that believes thats the way.
Even apart from counseling, "I have fears" - ""Stop that, thats dangerous" is not a good way to treat a human being at all. Can't imagine that to be helpful, especially for someone that has been traumatized as a child by losing his mother... twice basically.
And 'just accepting that everyone dies eventually and thats okay' is just right to some degree. Otherwise, there would be no point in rescuing people or even building hospitals. So I think you shouldnt throw around a phrase like this with very little context like yoda did.
One thing I like about the lore of Vapad is that he couldn’t teach it to others. Others tried it, but everyone else weren’t able to keep the dark side at bay. They all fell because they dabbled in the Dark, except for Mace.
“…two general ways of approaching it.”
the right way.
and the wrong way.
Or you can do it the Batman way.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 I don't know, Batman's morals can be a bit grey at times.
Be like Obi-Wan and take the High Ground ;)
@@generaljimmies3429 I don't know, Batman doesn't generally dismember people. Speaking of, have you ever rewatched that scene and thought of all the easy and obvious ways Anakin could have gotten up there without getting de-legged? And have you ever noticed that Anakin's limbs magically disappear from the shot where he's rolling down the hill?
*Only a sith deals in absolutes*
My problem with this kind of thinking is, who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong?
"No force power is inherently good or evil, it's how you use it"- Kyle Katarn
"If you are truly to understand the force you will need the contrast"- Kreia
And these quotes right here are the reason why the Expanded Universe will always be superior to Disney canon.
Dam you beat me to it well said.
No. Force lightning is inherently evil. It's bolts of pure hate which inflict massive suffering on the victim. It's a power only someone drawing on the dark side would ever use.
The same goes for Force choke. Life is breath. Using the Force, the very energy of life, to painfully restrict the flow of life in another being is also inherently evil.
This is why you never see true Jedi using these powers. The only exception is Luke in the beginning of Return of the Jedi, and this is because at this point his alignment is supposed to be ambiguous. That's why he's dressed in black.
And force choke can be applied without leathal asphyxiation. The us eof telekinesis to break/crush or blast stuff isn't malicious in nature. If this line of thinking is correct then master Yaddle of all people has an ability that can slow a persons bodily functions down to 0. While it's forbidden to to the off chance it's done wrong that power too can peacefully subdue someone without acute or chronic harm.
@@cataclysmicacedia824 This isn't about literal rationalizations. This is about symbolism. Force choke and Force lightning are both symbolic representations of concepts relating to domination and the infliction of pain. That's why they're off-limits to Jedi, who are meant to to embody concepts relating to compassion and non-aggression.
I have no idea what you're talking about with Yaddle because I don't pay attention to what random people who write tie-in products have to say about things.
Agreed. I am not at all fond of the recent Jedi bashing that Rian Johnson made canon.
It's a fundamental misunderstanding of why the Sith are bad and the Jedi are not. The Sith teachings encourage dark side use for the sake of dark side use. There is no goal other than to see how dark you can become, and the Sith began to discover that you could get darker by doing more and more evil things. And that it opened up abilities that were "unnatural".
The dark and light side always exist. The Sith teachings were a perversion that encouraged evil for the sake of evil, continually and forever. "Keep putting the needle to your arm until you forget who you are," basically. The Jedi teachings were not a perversion but simply a code that helped Jedi live by a certain set of standards. They are two totally different ideologies, which is why the Sith had to go in order to bring balance. The Sith perverted the dark side into something different and unnatural, by magnifying that power so greatly that it altered the very nature of the Force.
The thing it was Rian Jonson himself who made this canon
As much as I don’t like the Last Jedi, it didn’t invalidate the Jedi themselves. Rey basically imitates Luke in ROTJ to a “T”, a Jedi through and through according to himself
Luke may have scorned them but we late find out it’s to cover up his own wrongdoing and he’s essentially a foil to Rey
I’m honestly in the mind that Rian had a lot of different ideas on set but of course he had took with wha teas set up in TFA and he had to adhere to JJs mystery box approach and therefore NOT reveal any overarching plot points for the whole trilogy(at least not intentionally).
Methinks that he ran out of time and money and had to piece together the footage he had to make the most coherent story. I mean look at Luke in a deleted scene in which he fools Rey into thinking an armada of raiders are coming only to tell her a Jedi would do nothing. I don’t know what went through Rians mind but he clearly didn’t have one specific direction for this film
Overall though the Last Jedi doesnt attempt to invalidate the Jedi in the prequels. Fans of the movie however think that it will pave the way for a grey Jedi because of the way it “subverts expectations” but even that’s assuming too much
Again the only overencompassing rule or format to the sequel trilogy was JJs mystery box approach. No plot point was set in stone: Snoke went out abruptly and with no name but that decision was still retractable because of the vagueness of his identity. Same with Rey Nobody: Kylo ren has a motive to lie as the villain and the movie could have shown Rey’s parents and their likenesses but it didn’t . It could’ve had their surname mentioned: it didn’t
This is the first video I've seen in a long time that explores what the Force originally meant and was. While I love the EU and the idea of someone gaining insight from using both sides of the force (Revan is one of my favorite characters) I completely agree that Lucas' version of the force is different from that. The way I always viewed the force in the original trilogy and the prequels was that the light and dark werent in balance together but rather that the light side was balance and the dark side was imbalance.
The idea of Grey Jedi was created by roleplayers and fan-fiction writers who want their Jedi to have the power and cool-factor of the Dark Side without the drawbacks.
Not really. Grey Jedi was never mentioned in either Legends or New Canon.
Depends on your definition of "Roleplayer" 'cause if you're talking about table top gaming, guess again, Greys get dark side points for dark deeds just like light siders do. It's part of the games mechanics.
OR learning to BALANCE the force and not put extremist light and dark side dogma during their studies of the force.
@@trustinfaith9778 Yes, it was mentioned (numerous times) in Legends.
To quote Kotor II: "Gray Jedi are those who, though having completed the teachings of the Jedi, operate independently and outside of the Jedi Council. They are typically seen as misguided, though they have not necessarily succumbed to the dark side." ~Grey Jedi Robe Item description
Orders/people that are considered Gray Jedi in Legends:
Je'daii Order
Jensaarai
Imperial Knights
Voss Mystics
Jolee Bindo ("Well I assure you, I see more grey than dark or light. I'm just a stubborn old man tired of the foolishness of others.")
People that are considered Grey Jedi in the new canon:
The Father (Maintains balance between the Light and the Dark, the Daughter and the Son)
The Bendu ("I am the one in the middle")
Ahsoka Tano (possibly, as Dave Filoni said her white lightsabers were to show that she was affiliated with neither the Jedi nor the Sith.)
@@trustinfaith9778 I think that is what he meant. Since the idea of "Gray Jedi" is not a canon concept, either from its very creation by anyone associated with LucasFilms to modern day LucasFilms, its origins place it in the EU or Legends domain...meaning created by someone else outside of the franchise.
THANK YOU!
The philosophical differences between the Sith and Jedi is so dramatic, it’s not about a balance between dark and light, it’s about a fundamentally different understanding of, and interaction with, the force.
It is so sad that the creator is no longer creating the story
Eric Brown The sadder part is that it didn’t need to go this route. Disney and Kennedy could’ve had Lucas stay onboard as a consultant to make it feel more like Star Wars, like he wanted and expected. Instead, they ditched him and used his creation to do whatever they wanted, i.e. throw agendas in everyone’s faces and make as much money as possible.
Did you all see the prequels?
Yes I did see the prequels, I thoroughly enjoy them. But I do see your point, but that's your opinion and this is mine. I absolutely hate the sequels, which hurts me to say.
The Prequels have problems in the form of bad dialogue and acting, but the stories were interesting, the characters evolved and the world-building and development of the mythology were great. The Sequels so far have the reverse problem with weak stories that don’t make much sense, boring and one-note characters, very little development of the mythology and no world-building, but they look nice and are well-acted.
I have loved everything till Disney touched it
"The force is for knowledge and defense never attack..."unless you want to set a tree on fire
While I disagree that to find balance a jedi needs to learn the dark side. I also disagree that a jedi should not have attachments or emotions. But rather they need to learn how to temper and control those emotions. Because if you look at the prequels and original trilogies. Its essentailly the tale of anakin being told that he must let go of his attachments and suppress his emotions toward them. But that ends up backfiring for the jedi when he feels he has nowhere else to turn to other than the dark side. If the jedi had allowed anakin to show his emotions and to talk to him about them instead of telling him to suppress them then he wouldn't turn to palpatine. But to contrast that Luke finds the balance not in the ethereal force, or even in the literal definition of him having both light and dark side powers. But an internal balance of himself when he realizes that if he doesn't stop and control his anger and rage that he will destroy the very person he was trying to save. And that to me has always been the core message of star wars. That it's ok to have people you love and care for but we can't allow the emotions we have to control and consume are very being.
That was the whole point of the prequels....that the Jedi code was flawed. Notice how in the OT, Yoda only warns Luke about negative emotions, and it was Luke's attachments to Han, to Leia, to his father that prevented him from falling to the dark side. That was Lucas's message and the deeper meaning behind Star Wars.
Jonslam Lee That is how I see it as well.
I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head.
Exactly
Jedi & Sith are based on Taoism.
Jedi have a bit of darkness.
Sith have a bit of the light.
Anakin Skywalker is an example of balance of both that a Taoist seek. (I am not Taoist I ma guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
The idea of the Force itself is borrowed from the Tao, but the Tao is not yin and yang, light and dark, male and female. This is a very reductionist, and typical of Western understanding of light/dark. Rather, these harmonies and dualities are how the Tao itself is manifested. A Taoist doesn't seek to be balanced between masculine and feminine, they seek to be what they are - at peace with the manifestation of the Great Way (the Tao) within themselves and those around them. To seek out darkness when you are light is to fail to conform to the Tao, to seek out light when you are dark is to fail to conform to the Tao.
The Sith pursue to manipulate the Force, they chase after the Dark, and so do not conform to the harmony of all the Force itself. There is death, yes, but think of it more like The Lion King's Circle of Life. Death is part of the balance of life, it is necessary to maintain equilibrium within the environment and thus within the greater Galaxy. The Sith seeking to live forever is a disruption of this balance. The Jedi ACCEPT the dark side of the Force, but they do not seek to use it or manipulate it for their own end. It's the different between a predator like a lion killing a gazelle for food and a hunter killing a gazelle for sport - or more accurately, a farmer who wipes out a whole herd of gazelle for the sake of arable land to accrue more power and security to himself. One is part of the natural order, where death and even killing can be necessary, and the other is an extortion of an otherwise natural process.
The idea of the Sith isn't that they are necessary; a balanced Force is the light side of the Force, that is an acceptance of death, of the way of all things, and to exist peaceably within it. You have some dark in you, but the dark cannot be fed or used at the expense of others. The idea of the Sith is that to pursue something other than balance is to disrupt the song. Conflicting notes creating dischord in the symphony of the Galaxy, rather than seemingly conflicting notes creating a beautiful harmonic chord.
@@harktheheral well said wish more people would realize this.
@@harktheheral
Jedi are selfless peacekeepers that accepted death.
Sith are selfish, frightened of the death that want power.
Both ideals are right and wrong. Some can be selfish to save their family than the entire population of people. Fear of death is a natural response for some people. Power can be defined many ways political power or physical power or the power to get better at something. Both ideals are right and wrong.
So in Taoist belief is to accept natural balance and live with it rather than against it.
Western ideals fit more with the Sith but Eastern ideals fit more with the Jedi. That is my people believe the way of the Jedi is wrong be in the West it is literally a foreign concept.
My view on the Force in Star Wars is that both sides are right and wrong but when Thor started making videos about the Force and it was described by lack of the Sith and Jedi living in harmony with natural concepts it made me confused because it when against by belief that both sides are right and wrong. So maybe Star Wars isn't based on the Taoism after all.
In my fan-made Star Wars stories I used the believe the both sides are right and wrong. I tried to portray the Sith as a misunderstood order that has good sympathetic traits but you tell me that I was wrong in that believe.
I just don't understand Taoism it seems.
I think that the Jedi became flawed, and that’s part of the main idea of the prequels is that they failed. Yoda says “failed, I have”. The Jedi system failed
People also forget that you can actually quit being a jedi at any time and leave the order. With the high quality of education you recive in the temple would help you secure different career. Anakin could have easely do that and be with Padme his skills would help him to pursue different types of fullfilling careers instead he wanted to have cake and eat it too. He wanted both to be with Padme AND be a "greatest Jedi that ever lived" and at the end he had niether of these things.
Exactly
His downfall comes from the fact that he hid his marriage from yoda and obiwan
If he straight up told them then they could have helped him
I do like how the prequels showed the jedis as powerful but somewhat inept when it came to them seeing the Sith’s plans unfold all around them.
I like the fact that you make a distoction between legend, canon and lucas views
Toon Bartholome I agree.
It's interesting to see the contrast of how the Jedi order operated and the DisneyCorp trilogy. The former acted primarily on reason and thought, whereas Rey has primarily quickly followed every emotion and whim that comes to her without much planning or analysis. That could cause problems in the new order she's likely going to create.
I always took that first line of the code to be something to use when emotions were clouding your judgement. That it was something used to "clear one's mind" rather than to imply that a living being should be emotionless at all times.
*Stay in the Jedi temple Kids, don't do drugs!*
But then Anakin will kill them
Don't do DarkS.
@@darthjaxrevan Cos he was on drugs.
Don’t do death sticks.
Thank you! I'm so glad to hear someone talk about the Jedi and the force in this way! It's about the individuals which tap into this energy field, and the way that the dark side amplifies and corrupts the _user_ , not that there are two semi sentient "forces" in the one greater force that are constantly at war with champions on both sides stuck between. The reality is that the Jedi way, and the Jedi's respect for the force is empirically good, and dark side users are corrupt from power, which leads them to commit evil acts to get more power, not that they're following some 'Dark Side Will'.
Musikur Yes, it is all about choice.
uggh, I find it so hard to enjoy classic Star Wars with that Disney crap looming over us like a shadow.
Not for me. Disney might hold the rights, but they don't get to decide what I consider legitimate.
@@RicardoAGuitar Of course not, I'm just saying being reminded of it at all every time Star Wars is brought up is miserable. I'm sure that's just what they want, but if there's a brightside to it it's that one day after the well's dried up maybe someone can acquire the rights and fix it. If I live that long it'll be a good day.
MerlosTheMad i’m gonna loosely quote you prequel lovers here : if you let a couple movies in the franchise ruin the entire series for you then you aren’t a real fan
Pedro Kantor i was only using the same rhetoric that used to be used on me for not liking the prequels ;)
don’t really feel that way btw. if someone wants to say they are a fan then whatever. but i do truly question if someone truly likes the entirity of star wars or only a small part of it when they say things like “i can’t enjoy star wars anymore because of the last jedi”.
literally just don’t watch them and only watch/discuss the movies you do like.
@Pedro Kantor Sadly, the term real fan is no longer a slander, it actually has weight behind it. We now have Disney fanboys and Twilight fangirls in the fandom. People who don't like Star Wars, but like it because it is apart of Disney, and Disney gave them "Reylo." I think the hardest pill is that we will never have pure Star Wars again, it will always be agenda driven. But Star Wars had an amazing run under Lucas, he was a great creator who gave us a lot of good, some really cool bad, and a little too much of ugly. The only things the fans can do, is stop giving Disney their money and build on the existing canon that we already have. Star Wars will always be apart of our lives if we never let it go.
well, the Jedi did manage "a thousand generations" of galaxy peace keeping on there belt.
Padme was right when she said that the Jedi teachings forbade love and attachment. Anakin tries to get around this by pointing out that it teaches Compassion, which it does, however he changes the definition of Compassion from being empathetic of others, and concerned for their well-being, to "Unconditional Love", that he then uses as an umbrella term to include love and attachment ... it is his loophole to get around the Jedi teachings).
Watching the OT and the Prequels, two things are clear:
1) It was the Jedi that drove Anakin to the Dark Side.
2) It is Luke's rejection of Obi-wan and Yoda's teaching (ie: the "Jedi Code"), that leads to the destruction of the Sith and the redemption of Anakin, bringing balance to the Force. The Jedi taught Luke to put aside his feelings for Han, Leia, Chewy etc. to let them die and kill his father ... he rejected their teaching and embraced his feelings and emotions, his attachment to his friends, and his love for his father, and that is why he succeeded where the Jedi failed.
10,000 fully trained Jedi Knights, embracing the teachings of the Jedi, could not accomplish what one half-trained farm boy, rejecting the Jedi Code could.
B E O W U L F and that is the point of why there never should have been a sequel trilogy. Like could teach future force users the new jedi way, finally changing the old jedi ways which had led to so many jedi turning to the dark side
it wasn't the Jedi that drove Anakin to the dark side, it was Anakin's failure to accept and follow the Jedi Code that he was trained to do from early on. Imagine you're a baseball pitcher on a team, and trained to throw strikes. Come game day you decide you would rather throw wild pitches that cost your team the game. It wasn't your team training that lost the game, but your own decision not to follow the training.
It was not the Jedi, Anakin's own lust for power, control, arrogance, and desire to save Padme at all costs is what caused him to turn to the dark side. He could not control is attachment, the exact opposite of what the Jedi preached.
Luke did not reject the Jedi code when he refused to kill his father, he embraced it. He refused to give into his hatred and kill out of revenge, that's the exact thing Obi-Wan and Yoda always preached to him. He even said that he was "a Jedi like my father before me". He forgave his father which is what all Jedi should do and that forgiveness is ultimately what toppled the Sith.
Luke followed the Jedi Code all the way through. People try and pain him as some sort of maverick Jedi but he was anything but. He was a very traditional Jedi are rightly so, Lucas was trying to present to us what the ultimate Jedi is in that final throne room scene.
@@jeffburnham6611 Wrong it was the jedi code that drove anekin to the dark side.The code demanded he give up on all his emotions.to have ties to nothing.In efect to be a sociopath.Thats not a healthy code to live by.Palpatine is the only one to give him any help in dealing with his fears about his fears about his wives death.That hope is why he went tot he dark side.to save his wives life.The code demanded he not care about her death.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Wrong Luke did reject the code.He did it in order to save his fathers life.if he followed the code.the he wouldnt have cared about his father at all.Lukes faith in his father.which the code forbid.Was what saved his father.
This was brilliant. Great insight regarding attachments and the rules. I think a lot of the negativity has stemmed from Luke's remarks in the Last Jedi.
I also am NOT a fan of the term "gray jedi". I like to think of jedi as Greek philosophers like Socrates and Plato in that they don't have any real answers but rather contemplations to the greater mysteries of the (universe) force. The "I know that I know nothing" philosophy, that jedi like yoda and qui-gon embody perfectly.
Yet Plato came up with many answers, and took comfort in them, just as the Jedi did.
"Grey Jedi" is redundant. The Jedi are grey in the shape of the Force.
I always saw the Jedi as representing stoicism, where the Sith adhere to a sort of sentimentalism.
Thor, thank you for making this video. I am totally blown away and humbled by your knowledge of Star Wars, and specifically "The Force" itself. Your respect for the source material is evident, and inspires me to want to learn more about it. This video actually touched my heart, especially the segment about "service" to others...in my previous job I worked to be in service to others, and there was no better feeling than helping someone in need. Shouldn't we all look to the Jedi for inspiration? The only problem I have with the Jedi is their rigidity, or failure to be flexible when need be (i.e. strict age limits for potential jedi learners). Anyhow, thanks again...what a great video, perhaps your greatest yet!
Now that you've laid it all out so clearly, I've realized... I am a Jedi. Never thought of my life that way, but there it was right in the description. That seriously makes me feel pretty happy with myself. That's new. Thanks Thor.
This is better than when I tried to address such a topic. Thanks for the vid.
In my opinion Anakin was the definition of a grey jedi before turning to the darkside in Episode III.
The clone wars showed that Anakin Skywalker was able to cut corners in terms of the Jedi code. Couple examples is saving Ashoka from the genosion virus, killed the Space terrorist threatening to blow up the ship that Obi-wan and his 'girlfriend' was on, and choking the Bartender when getting information to find Obi-wan's 'killer'
In My opinion, that's the reason why Ashoka left the order is to explore both sides of the force and how grey jedi's use both light and darkness in Balance without being a slave to both sides of the same coin
Dude you didn’t get the video at all. Just because you don’t agree on some issues with the Jedi Council doesn’t make you a “Grey Jedi” just because... Anakin was a full fledged Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order. He was no made up, “Grey Jedi”. Ashoka was a full fledged Jedi Padawan who left the order and remained committed to the LIGHT. She didn’t “pursue both sides”. That’s not Ashoka. Just because she has White sabers doesn’t make a “Grey Jedi”.
Understand??
THANK YOU for this. Essential listening for anyone who wants to talk about the Jedi.
your analysis transcends star wars and speaks to the universal human condition, which is why we love star wars in the first place. great job, and thanks.
It's probably not the same as the old canon, but I've never considered gray Jedi as force users of the light and dark side. Gray Jedi use the light side just like Jedi, except that they have renounced the Order and its rules. Was not Qui-Gon Jinn called by many fans a gray Jedi for a long time? Obviously he is not one. But he distances himself from the original traditions of the Order, but still does not use the dark side. A gray Jedi only moves away from some traditions and possibly even teachings. In essence, he still remains a force user of the light side.
Before the prequels came out, I always pictired the Jedi would be less of a centralized order, and more of a lifestyle and moral code for those strong in the Force that were trained by another within. That while they had their own network as a source of accountability, they didnt have a council nor were they truly headquartered anywhere. They still had their regilar lives and dayjobs (starfighter, pilot, security guard) but on top of that, they had the duties and moral responsibilities to to preserve peace and justice. And kid of like the Sith, a Jedi Knight would take on their own apprentice once they discovered them. They werent assigned to them and they would often stick together, much like the Sith Rule of Two. It would be the Clone Wars that they all left their homes to fight, as soldiers and Knights do, and in doing so, the better warriors would rise in the ranks of the military, not automatically thrust up there because they are Jedi.
Thank you! This is long overdue, you know something is wrong when people out there actually believe that the Jedi were worse than the Sith. Somebody is confused.
Like Qui Gon says, whenever you gamble....eventually you lose. The same is true of gambling with the Dark Side. Eventually...you lose.
In the original 2005 version of ROTS novel, there is a section during the fight on Mustafar that really simplified the Light and the Dark side mastery. Obi-Wan was given a platform to land on whereas Vader commanded a platform be given to him. Obi-Wan allowed the Force to flow through him and he just obeyed where as Vader commanded the Force to do as he wanted. The Dark side users don't show proper respect for the Force, whereas the Jedi strives to respect it. In the now non-canon novel, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis, Plagueis made mention that the Force has a way of pushing back.
The Jedi forgot that without the night, the stars wouldn't shine.
The Sith didn't undersatand that behind every shadow there's light.
Wouldn't the light have to be in front to cast a shadow?
@@jeggsonvohees2201 Perhaps... from a certain point of view.
No. The jedi relate to balance. Light, dark, life, death, pain, joy, etc. a balance in which you know that every moment will pass. The sith are not in balance, and that is why even though they in the start, are often driven by altruism of various kinds, the dark side will eventually turn them evil. Because misery loves company. The amount of people who do not understand this makes me sad.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 It's more like way of speech.
@@rthj6446 The problem is how many jedi do not understand this either.
Yes, thank you! You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I think about the Jedi.
People get hung up on small misconceptions like having no emotions or enforced celibacy, and miss the whole point of the Order. Moreover, this is the time we live in - tortured anti-heroes are more popular than true heroes, so of course some people find the Light/Dark dichotomy to be boring and like the idea of a "Gray" Jedi. Too bad.
It really depends on how you want to look at it, from a story perspective, or from a lore perspective.
I highly doubt Lucas was concerned with the differences between the light and dark side while filming. He was focused on presenting a good story to the public and general audience However, the fact that the “Grey Jedi” concept wasn’t Lucas’s idea doesn’t make it any less part of cannon. It added more story and depth into the franchise, teaching us that the force isn’t all black and white, but more of a scale. Characters such as Ahsoka, Bendu, Sidious, and Windu understood the balance between the force and that neither side was without its flaws. You can’t compare Jedi using the dark side to being a vegan, because there are only two sides to that concept: you are a vegan, or you are not. The force is a different story, it’s a wide scale of one’s differing connections through the many aspects of the force.
Yes, veganism is a bit of an extreme comparison.
There are many intermediate points on that scale. (And tangents if you include non-humans)
Vegans, vegetarians, people eating various amounts of meat and animal products.
Then there's a term I came upon recently, 'flexitarian', which was kinda... Dumb.
But in any event, of these, vegan is by far the most restrictive term.
You can't be half-vegan, because that doesn't make sense.
humans are pretty much ALL half-vegan by that definition.
While George Lucas owned SW, only what he created was canon as he is THE creator. No one else. Everything else was extra, even if it was really cool. (I’m saying his as someone who would love for Mara Jade to have been in the sequel trilogy). It is similar to how only what JRR Tolkien created in the Lord of the Rings universe is canon. No fan fiction is canon. Now what his youngest son, Christopher Tolkien, has put together from his writings is canon because JRR Tolkien put Christopher in charge. The films are interpretations, where there are changes the books decide what is canon in terms of the story. George Lucas has given many interviews on the Force, the light side and the dark side. He has spoken of love vs hate (approach to the Force and to the universe in general). Although I was a bit intrigued by the idea of grey Jedi at first, I’m going with the creator of the whole SW universe. Though Disney owns it now, they did not originally create it and have arguably wrecked what George started. Thor Skywalker has done a brilliant job in going through what George Lucas’s vision was and is.
9:37. Dude you just described Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side. This is EXACTLY how it happened with him. His ego led him to believe he could "control" it and by the end he fell completely to the dark side.
@Max EU character. One of Han and Leia's kids
@Max because the movies went their own route. The old EU that's been around for the past 30yrs was scrapped and thrown away when Disney took over from Lucas.
If I remember correctly, In one of the novels Yoda explained that one of the reasons the Jedi Order fell and was tricked so easily was a refusal or inability to evolve and grow like the Sith had, which gave them an advantage. I think I could see ways for the Order to change while keeping true to the core tenants of being a Jedi, in similar ways that Luke implimented in the old EU.
Jeggson Vohees yep: exactly right.
Yes there are a lot of EU writers who "just don't get it." Honestly, does that really sound like anything Yoda would truly say? "Evil not enough we were." In the prequels, it is suggested that the Jedi are not allowed emotions, in the OT Luke was warned about negative emotions, not emotions. The Jedi were conditioned not to have attachments, but it is strong attachments that root one to the light....something or someone to care for, to not be evil.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 That's not what I said, and that's not what Yoda said.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 I know that's not what Yoda said, but my point stands....the writer was wrong. It wasn't a failure to evolve that was the down side of the Jedi...for over a thousand generations the order stood....does that sound like stagnation to you? No, the failing of the Jedi was they allowed themselves to become dogmatic and political and allowed themselves to be used as weapons in a war they should have never been apart of....because they were afraid of losing that political power and influence. Hell they even threw Ahsoka under the bus to protect that political power in The Clone Wars cartoon, which lead her to leaving the order.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 So they devolved. The cosmos is in constant change. If you don't adapt to it and prefer to stay stagnant eventually you become outdated...
Every time you use the Dark Side, the GM rolls 1D6. If he rolls less than the number of times you've used the Dark Side, you lose your character to the Dark Side and you have to create a new one. It's just not worth it.
plus you get another dark side point , if you're lucky enough to survive the gm's roll.
Dungeons & Dewbacks
I love it when they take the approach that the Jedi are corrupt and trying too hard to appease the senate and have lost their once pure and noble way thus are "clouded" to the ways of the force and can't see the future as Palpatine manipulates everyone
thor..
Grey jedi is actually a very easy topic to understand. They have very little if nothing to do with darkness. They aren't vegetarian meat eaters they are simply members of the jedi order who are known to argue with, disobey and push the council while staying within the jedi rules. They may disagree with the council and the rules but they still obey mostly. Jinn arguing with the council is PERFECTION in showing what a grey jedi is. He argued and disobeyed but never went to fall as to be thrown out of the order and never used the darkness and he obeyed the jedi code. Kyp durron is another perfect example. A renegade jedi knight who though disobeying Luke and the council did not fall to the dark side. This is why there is no grey jedi order or code. They are officially part of the order
now there are what I call grey force users (notice there is no "jedi") that do some of what people get all hyped on but that is a whole different topic that has little to do with grey jedi. Thor, I've spent many years debating this, talking to others and pondering refining my belief and I would love to debate and discuss if you so wish. It comes down to this. one can not be a member of the jedi order if they wield darkness and are tainted or if they disregard what makes a jedi different from other force users (grey force user) such as the jedi code. You can not be jedi without the jedi code and a dedication to the light. That makes a jedi who they are. That's what people miss "without following the code" how do you be true jedi ignoring the jedi basics. It's like a doctor ignoring all their vows. I've rambled enough so I'll just say I'll debate you thor and anyone else
Shadow Zaron I think all this fits with what Thor is saying. That those Jedi who are sometimes described as “grey” never use the dark side, they are still Jedi.
Actually, Jinn did fall at one point. Or came very close to falling to the Dark Side almost permanently. I believe it is recounted in one of the novels or comics, and was caused by the death of his love interest, who happened to be another Jedi.
People like to conflate "flawed" with "wrong"
Incredibly well-stated. These kinds of topics are why I dig this channel. I don't think the Jedi way is flawed so much as it's just not for everyone. Qui-Gon himself said "It's a hard life". I admit freely that I would be better served being a Sith. I've never set much stock by the rules, I'm definitely a slave to my own desires and outside of my kids, I'm not bound to any allegiance and serve no one but myself. That's just how I get down.
To me, the only few that were worth calling themselves jedis at some point were Obi Wan, Caleb Dume and Ima-Gun Di
I agree 98%. I don't think the Prequels made people question. After all there are lines in the Prequel that hint otherwise. And the Jedi not allowing marriage and this attachment is wrong. And they were hypocritical, and they feared the darkside and denied their existence till they were forced to in TPM. They were flawed, but their principles and their thoughts on emotions and love were good. Everything they stood for was great except for the marriage part, and then them not living by there own standards at times. Thanks for this video. It was a great insight, and one I forgot with age.
So............
Evidently the greatest misconception about the Jedi is that you have to be well trained to become a powerful master......... Just ask Rey.
The concept of the "grey Jedi" is ridiculous. If you could use both sides of the force with no negative consequences then why aren't all Jedi/Sith grey. Why weren't Yoda or Palpatine grey.
*"NUFF SAID"*
It's a very fandom thing too. All the benefits and none of the responsibilities.
See, I don't think of a grey jedi as someone using the light and dark side of the force, I think of it as more of a light side jedi with grey morals that occasionally are things you'd expect from a dark side user.
@@lordcommandersnow1611 thats the way it is in swtor
Palpatine is literally grey
@@toonbartholome479 Only because the attempt on his life had left him scarred and deformed.
What is your opinion about the original jedi code? And why do you think they needed to make the code more defined?
"Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force."
I usually find the idea of grey, something in between, quite appealing, but here it doesn't fit so well. What distinguishes a Jedi among other Force users is the code; if you don't follow it, you are not a Jedi. Calling yourself Jedi but refusing to follow, or cherrypicking what to follow, is like eating your cake and keeping it too (meat-eating vegetarian is an awesome comparison).
As for the existence of the code itself: I fully embrace it. The Jedi are endowed with great powers and could harm many if they diidn't impose those rules on themselves. There is nobility in such self-sacrifice, and it annoys me to no end when I see the Jedi compared to emotionless automatons. As you have pointed out, feelings themselves are not a problem, they only become a problem when you let them control your life. It wasn't Anakin's love for Padme that caused his downfall but its pathological nature, obsessive and possessive. He wouldn't accept her death, he wouldn't accept that she seemingly chose Obi-wan over him, and the fear and anger was what did him in. Where the Jedi might improve a bit is the use of psychology - therapy sessions would have done a great deal of good to Anakin.
I will definitely be watching this video multiple times and giving a lot of thought to some of your arguements. Thanks for the excellent video!
Well, while we hear a great deal about how powerful the Dark Side is, about how addictive it supposedly is etc, etc. But that isn't what we SEE in those movies. We see Luke using Force Choke and in the throne room uses his rage to defeat his father, then STOPS, and throws away his light saber. Is this the reaction of someone who is addicted? Nope, don't need it, you lose, your highness. This is NOTHING like what Yoda seems TERRIFIED of how both he and Obi-Wan constantly go on and on about. Quite honestly, I think the movies are almost in universe propaganda films, trying to prop up a successful revolution that has just upset a very big apple cart.
At the risk of sounding self aggrandizing, this was a theme I took on to explore, in a series of admitted fan fiction, set in the Old Republic told from the side of a Sith Lord. It was very interesting seeing the universe through that lens, how what we have all taken as all but the Tablets of the Commandments, brought down by Charlton Heston himself. And, perhaps, a way the line in the scroll of Revenge of the Sith being true. That there are heroes on BOTH sides. Taken that way, this becomes FAR less black and white and instead of implacable evil vs pure goodness, it becomes a religious schism truly the worst kind of war.
And keep in mind, Darth Bane's Rule of Two came about because the Jedi waged a war of GENOCIDE.
In one bit, my Sith Lord explains the Code of the Sith, on her holonet channel and she can explain it better than I can...
"Greetings, my name is Darth Nyeomi Fens, Lord of the Sith. As you have come to my channel, you no doubt have questions; about The Force, about the Sith, or perhaps even yourself. You have heard of these mysterious societies, the Lords of the Sith, the Jedi Knights and you want to look behind the curtain. Well, I am happy to draw it aside for you.
“The Jedi seek to master their emotions, their code teaches them to only act when at peace and emotionless. It is possible to achieve this state with extraordinary discipline and years of study, however, it is contrary to human nature. The Sith, on the other hand, embrace our emotions and through them we master ourselves, our environment and the Force itself. While we can use any emotion to do so, anger, fear and aggression are easiest to call upon, and so my order has garnered a stigma of being evil. One side says they use the so called Light Side of the Force, the others the Dark side. But these are not the true names of the Force, that is the Ashla and the Bogan, and in truth, The Force simply is; neither good nor evil and indiscriminate on how it is used. This disagreement is the root cause of dozens of wars and cost the lives of uncounted trillions.”
I sighed and hug my head. “My former order had a hand in those wars, and while the code of the Sith has wisdom for all, that does not excuse our parts in that violence. That, however, is history. You wish to learn, to understand, and I will teach you. Let us begin with the Code of the Sith.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion. This is a statement whose truth is self evident. Strife is the natural order of the cosmos and moments of 'peace' an aberration, not the norm. While we may enjoy these fleeting moments, true wisdom comes from understanding that we learn best that which we are passionate about and that Peace is transitory.
"Through passion, I gain strength. What do you remember of the subjects in school you disliked? Our interests, our passions bring us knowledge and in some cases, the physical strength of body, or of mind. We become strong to protect those that we care about and love. We have these emotions for a reason, channel and use them!”
"Through Strength I gain Power. When you embrace your emotions, and you learn as our species learn best, you begin to understand how to advance yourself in all aspects of your life. You cease to react to what life throws at you and you begin to act of your own accord. And when you have control of your life, we call that Power.”
"Through Power I gain Victory. When you have power over your own life, you assert your will on the universe, not the other way around. You are not adrift in the sea of life, your ship of self has a rudder
and an engine to chart your own course. To protect and provide for those dear to you, who stirred your passion in the first place. And through this, you understand our final truth...”
"Through victory my chains are broken, the Force shall free me. We are all slaves, slaves to time, to life and to fate. But as Sith we are actors, we impose our will on our surroundings, we protect those we
love, we live life on our own terms and we raise our children as our defiance of time and death towards immortality. We are freed from our fears and life is ours to take and enjoy. This is what I will teach you, and there is nothing evil about it.”
So, sorry for the wall of text, and I hope that makes a bit more sense. I don't think EITHER of these groups are truly 'evil'.
Omg well done to you my sith lord. You have described the real side of our darker aspects in relation to the sith code. I agree with you the sith code when properly interpreted to find passion in life To conquer our fears, to over come the chaos of our universe naturalistic laws. We can triumph. The Jedi are like a good fantasy of world peace to pretend that we are more than animalistic humans. That we can transcend our fears and emotions through stoicism approach or logic. I agree that certain aspects of the Jedi code realise that we must control our emotions but underneath all that spiritual talk we still are limited by our naturalistic behaviour.
Thanks! I am, justly I think, proud of that particular passage. When I took this on, and began researching things through out the (at the time) canon and EU, it suddenly became quite clear what was SAID about the so-called Dark Side and what was SHOWN were very, very different from each other. When I found the Code of the Sith it was obvious there is nothing intrinsically evil about the Sith, merely a disagreement on how to use the Force. This is backed up in both the former canon, and in the animated series of The Clone Wars and Rebels by Dave Filoni. I have no idea what Disney has in mind for the Force, or the Sith Order in the future, but sadly, from what I've seen, nuance, will have nothing to do with it.
PLEASE prove me wrong in an Old Republic Trilogy, Benioff and Weiss!
@@eenalley well said Darth maul during the clown wars was displaying his intelligent, cunning and some what kinda side. The nightsisters are intresting as they use the Dark side without becoming psychopaths lol. I don't trust Disney with star wara. They won't produce a decent emotional story were there could be more off a grey affect within the force. They will proberly have the classic light vs dark bullshit.. "Darth Marr" from the old republic is my favourite darksider.
Ironically, I'd have to say mine would be either Darth Tyrannus, in large part do the tragic waste of an actor like Chris Lee on what amounted to a bit part or Ventress. Dooku seemed to have ginuinely noble intention in what he was doing, much expanded on in the Clone Wars series, and he was, unfortunately so blinded by his vision of how great it will be when he rebuilds the Jedi with his hand picked disciples he really didn't see that Palpatine was playing him for a sucker.
Ventress, on the other hand, was like an abused child, constantly looking for stability and acceptance, never finding it. I truly wonder how things might have changed if Dooku had defied Palpatine and kept Ventress. Her story is one of the saddest in Star Wars, only really eclipsed by Anakin's fall.
I approve of this, as I'm sure that Lord Matu would as well.
Honestly, some of this I relate to. I have an addiction that I’m trying to handle that’s become a problem in my life. It’s REALLY HARD and I kinda made feel more vulnerable.
My feeling is that the Jedi lost their way. Qui-Gon was a real Jedi. And I love the real EU.
silverbullet1620 the jedi has always “lost their way”. For thousands of years according to the EU. Ever since the first jedi civil war.
silverbullet1620 and ever since they banished the contrast to their order instead of looking to improve.
I think the prequel-era Jedi Order is not the Jedi at their prime, but so ossified and set at their ways that they can't deal with Anakin and inevitably fail. Qui-Gon Jinn is more practical Jedi in touch with real world and is considered borderline Grey because the Jedi view is so extreme.
As for Grey Jedi, I think the only way to truly be like that is to become hermit and never take sides or even actions at all. The best image of this might be the Bendu in the Rebels series, who spends most of his time just being a rock. Jolee Bindo from KotOR is also represented as Grey, but I think he was only that while exiled in the Shadowlands of Kashyyyk. The dual nature of the Force is such that once you start participating, you will end up in one side or another.
Wow the way you described the Dark Side users using it as a tool reminds me of how Lu... l mean Jake sees the Force in TLJ... their failure is complete RJ didn't even understand the concept of the Jedi.
Mace Windu did use both sides and im a fan more of Lucas version. The original Je-dies practiced both Light and Dark. And then split. To much to cover but yes Mace Windu used vaapad. A form that relied heavy on the dark side of nature with also pulled your dark side energy away. Confirmed by Lucas this all this was.
I believe the grey jedi, or a similar neutral force, could be used intelligently as outcasts, who need to constantly thread a dangerous path and use the powers of darkness only in extreme situations, and at great costs, with the constant fear of falling to temptation. This way they could be interesting characters, but I am no expert, so perhaps its already like this.
We already saw this story with Luke. He tried used hate to try to defeat Vader but in the end returned to the light and forgave him and because of that palpatine was defeated and balance was restored. We also saw it with anakin when palpatine convinced him could use the dark side to save padme. Look how that turned out.
This was an amazing video. You really understand Lucas' vision for what Star Wars is and what it stood for. I've watched your videos for months now but it was this video that made me subscribe.
Ps. Your explanation PERFECTLY walks through Anakin's story.
Basically Palpatine is such a great villain that, in Episode III, not only he made Anakin see the Dark Side as good, but a decent part of the fandom too.
Anyway, to better understand SW's philosophy, I'd look directly to one of its sources: The Lord of the Rings. The ancient Sith are Melkor/Morgoth. The post-Darth Bane Sith, and especially Sidious, of course, are Sauron. Darth Vader is half-Sauron, half-Witch King of Angmar, and even half-Smeagol/Gollum. Count Dooku is of course Saruman.
So the perfect Jedi should basically follow Gandalf's philosophy: always show pity and compassion when you can, and NEVER presume that you are wise enough to see all ends.
On the other hand, the Dark Side is the One Ring: it tempts even the noblest of us with great power, but no one - not even extremely skilled good guys like Gandalf and Yoda - can use it without eventually giving in to its dark will. A will that wants nothing but to devour all that is good and pure. So yeah, the Gray Jedi make no sense at all. By definition, the Dark Side is something you can't actively use for long periods without falling victim to it.
Fred Marble The problem with the Lord of the rings analogy is it also has sources as the basis of its theology. Catholicism being the biggest one for J.R.R. Tolkien. This makes sense because Lucas understood basic narrative storytelling which you can draw a heck of a lot from when you study both eastern and western theology’s.
@@longforgotten4823 Well, we're talking about a saga that ends with the most evil guy in the Galaxy going to the Force version of Heaven because he repented at the last minute.
So yes, of course Tolkien also had his sources, including his Catholic beliefs, but they don't contradict what we see in Star Wars. I mean, we all know who Anakin's virginal conception takes inspiration from, right?
Fred Marble of course, I was only pointing out the sources of the Lord of the rings. ☺️ it’s classical storytelling at its finest.
@@longforgotten4823 Yes, absolutely!
@Greg Elchert Couldn't have said it better :)
I think people forget also that it wasn’t all the Jedi’s fault that Palpatine was able to gain more power during the clone wars. War is a time when democracy’s are the most vulnerable to being overthrown. We have seen that during the Civil War Lincoln was allowed to gain more power and during the war in Afghanistan Bush was allowed to pass the Patriot Act, a clearly unconstitutional bill. Unfortunately, in times of war unconstitutional actions are let off the hook because it’s deemed “a necessity of war” and all the moves that Palpatine makes to eventual create the Empire could happen in America or other democratic countries. It’s up to all of us to stay vigilant of actions and leaders who threaten our democracy. Democracy’s are hard won and kept, complacency and looking for the easy way out instead of negotiation and compromise leads to dictatorship.
I mostly agree with you but still think the Jedi Order had become too self righteous and had lost their way and for that was blinded by the darkside.
Windu doesn't really use the dark side, he connects to his opponent's dark side and weaponizes it against them, when he uses the dark side, he's actually already falling to the dark side of the Force, this already clouded his judgment, I once liked to call him a Dark Jedi
@Max it's not confirmed he did, it many people assume he used it against Palpatine or at least during the last days of the Republic which is how he managed to quickly and aggressively crush Grievous chest in 2003 Clone Wars, but if he used it, then it surely did start to corrupt him, well it already corrupted him like prequel Era Jedi, except that he's obviously one of the more corrupted ones
Instead of vegan that eats meat, think about carnivore, herbivore and omnivore. Omnivores have a HUGE evolutionary advantage.
9:20 sounds like quite some ideas taken from Lord Momin who was introduced in some of the more recent Vader comics, he believed that sith should serve the dark side to reach their true potential, not seek to harness it, because this leads only to self-destruction, to some degree Momins views were almost like Jedis but directed towards dark side
Also, I would say prequels view of the ways of Jedi is a lot based on the view of the central character of prequels, Anakin, which are influenced by Palpatine who done a lot of work to undermine Jedi authority in the republic so no one would be against order 66, but also, there is a chance that such misunderstanding of Jedi ways was common among lower ranks, who still couldn't truly immerse themselves in this idea, and very often these were folks who were choosing the different paths, after all, there is a reason wh ytere were only 20 "Lost Ones" the Jedi Masters who left the order, in entire history of the order
"And a powerful Ally it is"
In my mind the story of Anakin and Padme proves exactly how far the prequel era Jedi had fallen from their true path. Suppose rather than simply forbidding such relationships, and driving them underground, they had instead created an environment where it was allowed and Jedi were encouraged to talked openly about their emotional struggles. Imagine Anakin had been able to talk freely with other Jedi about his fears for Padme, without fear of judgement. Where he could have been trained in how to love Padme without becoming possessive or attached. How differently would everything have played out? The Jedi teaching was (correctly) that they should avoid attachment and possessiveness, the Jedi's solution was therefore to ban any kind relationship where attachment might arise. This is utterly doomed to failure, you don't overcome negative emotions by banning the things that might trigger them, you overcome them by learning to be still when they arise, to not be swept away in them. It is a clear example of the prequel era Jedi entirely missing what the actual path of the Jedi really was. In my mind it was this above anything else that led to their downfall.
Exactly true
"Control over it (The Force) is a illusion" ~ Thor Skywalker. You're best examples kids? *Darth's: Sion/Nihilus/Traya.* Even as beings with parts of the Power of a God: each one: was OWNED and in their own way: killed: by the very Power...that made two of them near immortal. Sion regulated to endles torture: but not strong enough to overcome Nihilus or Traya: trapped: as a Immortal Servant: forever. Nihilus...became the forbidden Sith Technique: Traya was naive enough to train him in. By the end: Nihilus' desires to Rule died like the man: and he became...the darkside within robes: Hunger: with no substance. Whatever original goals he had to conquer...destroyed: for the sake of feeding.
The other so subtlety powerful: she could have destroyed the Force: Whills and all...
With a single galactic Level Technique. But even Traya...is a broken: suicidal zombie...marching through the end of her life...waiting for you...
*To kill her.*
Question - "Surely there is harmony in both the light and the darkside? A way to control both and not be consumed by evil?'
Matt Martin [Lucasfilm Story Group] 2018 - *"That sort of goes against what Star Wars is all about. The Darkside corrupts."*
The Grey Jedi Code is a fan-made concept that took from the Sith and Jedi codes. It has no relevance to the greater universe, and is not only a mockery of what Grey Jedi really are but also a perversion. So I would recommend not bringing it up.
While it is important to know and note what George Lucas has said about the nature of the Jedi and the Force, and it also important to note that the Star Wars universe has grown beyond his initial vision. I would also like to point out that that growth has been guided by his hand. Nothing would be made without his approval. If it was something that he really liked then he would take a more direct approach in that guidance by providing more and helpful ideas. So, really, if fans want to get an authority on the Grey Jedi then I think that they should go to the people who best wrote about them such as the people who created and wrote about Kyle Katarn; the developers of Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, KOTOR I and II as well as others.
The description you gave on the fall to the Dark Side sounds a lot like how addicts perceive themselves. Very thoughtful of you.
I think a topic for you to cover would be that of Revan as he is the pinnacle of what many believe to be a Grey Jedi. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter; whether he falls under that view or if he is viewed as a true Jedi. There is a saying that spoken by those who put value into the Grey Jedi which is, "Those who have touched the darkness are the best equipped to overcome it." To those people, they believe this phrase enhances their view that Grey Jedi should be the ones to fight the Dark Side as they believe they can use both the Light and the Dark. As Revan was one who was both a Jedi and a Sith, they believed him to be a Grey Jedi. However, with your addict comparison in mind, it seems more likely that this phrase is relating to how a former addict can be the best person to help other addicts overcome their problems.
i totally agree, & they were still mostly great jedi, but were lost in many ways too so i love it more & more because it makes you think about it. its not exactly easy to even make opinions for yourself, but once you see it, you see it. they were great ppl that failed. its a tragedy story and they werent bad guys but lost a certain strength in themselves almost. idk ultimately thats just my view but i tend to see it in ways youve described.
I want a real life mentor like Qui Gon to guide me through life
Then listen to Allan Watts. th-cam.com/video/mMRrCYPxD0I/w-d-xo.html
So you want your mentor to die while you're young?
@@NCMonefaith Or to bet on slaves?
I think the best possible presentation of the Jedi Order is how its presented in the Jedi Knight games. They use the Force, but also let it guide them. They use it for attack and defense, they wield both light and darkness in equal shares and (with a few exceptions) it works!
Firstly, "Jedi" is not a state of being, or a philosophical status.
It is the name of an order of Force users.
If a Jedi starts using the DS, he does not become anything else, until he is kicked out of that order.
"Jedi" is not a set of rules. although they certainly have them. It is not like being a Christian who stops believing thus not being an actual Christian. A Jedi wouldn't use the DS, because they were not taught the dark side, or any techniques that use it.
Its like asking "If a Jedi starts using Kung Fu, does he cease to be a Jedi?" No.
Several Jedi knew and occasionally even used Dark Side techniques. It didn't always work out well for them, but it did happen on occasion, and while the Order wasn't exactly fine with it, they were still pragmatic enough to understand that, very rarely, the best way to serve the Light was to dip into the Dark
@@talltroll7092 See, that implies that either those individual Jedi either learned those techniques from somewhere, or that using the Dark Side is at least somewhat intuitive. Jedi are taught to use the force through tranquility, Sith, their passions. Where would a Jedi even begin to use a Dark Side technique, something that must be learned and practiced? It would be a bit like going to a martial art school and having them say, "Ok, first lesson, start breathing through your asshole." Unless, a Jedi was using the force the "normal" way, and began to lose his temper, and suddenly realizes, "Hey, I'm breathing through my asshole."
It would be a bit alien to you unless someone showed you how.
@@mikeborsum2953 The Jedi Order possessed quite an extensive collection of Sith / Dark Side artifacts and holocrons, which were available for study, although access to them was quite strictly controlled and monitored. They needed to have at least some awareness of DS techniques to be able to recognise and effectively resist them, as even in the "post-Sith" world of the prequels, there were the odd fallen Jedi, places strong in the Dark Side, even a few alternate Force users like the Dathomiri Nightsisters. Even the most dogmatic Light-sider has to acknowledge the value of "know your enemy".
A lot of what makes any technique Dark (or Light, for that matter) is how it is used, anyway. Obi-Wan using the Mind Trick to get through the blockade into Mos Eisly is literally him enslaving the will of another to his own will using the Force. It's not Dark because he's using it to avoid unnecessary conflict. He could also have used it to set up his own little Empire out on the Rim if he'd wanted, presumably.
There's also the scene RotJ where Luke seems to use Force Choke on the Gammorean guards in Jabbas Palace. That's generally considered a pretty Dark Side technique, but Luke doesn't use it to kill, just to intimidate a couple of dimwitted guards who likely aren't bright enough to understand less subtle approaches
I'd say thats debatable. Luke could have used a mind suggestion on them. "You will let me pass" etc. He didn't. He force choked them. The reason for that was actually intentional, as is why Luke wore black the whole time. He was dangerously close to the dark side the whole time. Until the end, when his jacket flap comes open and underneath was white. The color of his clothes was meant to be symbolic. He manages to stop himself just short of killing Vader while using his anger.
But as for techniques and whatnot, let me ask you this. If you're a bad guy with a blaster or detonator aimed at innocents, and I'm a Jedi, who is 20 feet away.
Even using the Force, I probably can't reach you to physically stop you from pulling that trigger, or pushing that button. I blast you with Force Lightning, killing you.
Was that "Good"? Was there absolutely no other method or ability that would have accomplished the same?
Or did I just use a Sith technique to kill you, and am trying to justify it's use, and why I studied it?
Would it have been the "will of the Living Force" to attempt to stop you, using those methods available to me, without any Sith powers, and if some people die, so be it?"
I like your analogy of the dark side to addiction and the in depth to what a life would be like. Videos like this is what I miss in star wars it seems a lot of videos are 3 mins long about a ship and that's all the lore we get but this gets you to think and wonder about what's next and what was. Thank you
Another awesome vid and topic. Clearly the fall of the Jedi is due to them getting away from being servants of the force.
love listeing to your videos...
At min x when you concluded that mace might have been able to utilize dark side power without ever falling to it but many trying it fell I was anticipating the video to cut to Count Dooku, who used to be a member of the Jedi Order and voluntarily left because he became disillusioned with the Jedi Order, the Republic, and the Galactic Senate's corruption. He accepted Lord Sidious' offer in order to eliminate the corruption and to gain the power to make sure of his people's wellbeing. Just before he died to Anakin's lightsabers, he realized he had fallen and had been a tool all along (and possibly, that Anakin was going down the same road.)
I am one of the few genuine fans of midi-cholreans. I am very happy that George Lucas made them part of Star Wars. No sarcasm.
High Heel Knight what does it meaningfully add to the universe that makes it good or worthwhile? Like, how does introducing them make the story better when he could have just left the force the mystery it should have remained.
I'm neither a fan nor a critic of them. They served their only real purpose, which was to allow Qui-Gon to quickly discover Anakin was unusual. Beyond that, they are easy enough to ignore if one doesn't like them.
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."
Actually, Lucas does know what lightsaber forms are. He was the one who introduced them in Attack of the Clones.
The Sith remind me of St. Augustine's story about original sin. He talked about the worst thing he'd ever done and it was when he was a kid. He and some friends went out and stole a bunch of fruit from a farmer's field. Then they threw the fruit away to some pigs or something. The act itself was completely evil, as evil as an act could be, because it was done ONLY for the purpose of doing something wrong. To Augustine, it was the peak of sinfulness and a complete perversion of human nature.
The Sith are just like Augustine in this childhood story that scarred him as an adult when he realized what he'd done and why. The Jedi Code was meant to be a boundary and guide for force users, a code to live by that kept them from perverting their power and using it to harm people. The Sith, on the other hand, exist only to be evil and gain more power. It's just a circle: be evil, get more powerful, be even more evil, get even more powerful. They are an utter corruption of the Force because they only exist to do evil for evil's sake. It's their philosophy.
The Jedi started equating Sith = Dark Side and built up an entire infrastructure to protect and shield force sensitives from the dark side because of this correlation the Jedi created between the Sith and Darkness.
That's why it was the Sith that needed to be destroyed in order to bring balance to the Force. The people who follow the new canon and believe the prophecy means there should be NO Sith OR Jedi are misunderstanding the entire situation. Just as Sith does not equal Dark, Jedi does not equal Light. There's a fundamental difference in the two philosophies which is why the Sith had to be eliminated in order to bring the Force back into balance. The Sith teachings were a fundamental perversion of the Force, the Jedi teachings were not.
Unlike the Sith who only used deception when necessary, (specifically after the rule of two was created) they were still more open and honest about their motivations and beliefs than the jedi were. The only thing I agree with the jedi is to detach yourself from emotions, and not make choices based soley on your emotions in the moment, (and in turn that is the only place I disagree with the Sith) but the comparison between the two codes reveals whose being honest, and who is lying.
You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view
@@goodmind4940 but our subjective views cannot compete with objective reality, there is a point when we must separate ourselves from our principles, and get our hands dirty.
Swtor explains it well:
"May the force be with you." vs, "May the force serve you well."
Always🌱
Good point on the confusing nature of the term “Grey Jedi”. What should we call them instead...
the Bendu?
Middle-users?
or...
Wielders of the purple??? (jk lol)
"Impossible and stupid"
“Made up and not real” always works for me... They aren’t an order, cult, lifestyle, or anything. Just made up fan fiction because they want to be a Jedi but have cool dark side powers.
Peace is a lie! There is only passion!
Through passion I gain strength
Through strength I gain power
Through power I gain victory
My chains are broken, the force shall free me
I cannot help but to notice a connection between the Jedi way and Christianity. As you've said the Jedi are supposed to be the servants of the force, just as Christians are supposed to be the servants of God. Just like the Jedi are supposed to be listening to the will of the force and serve it, and only act upon it's will, so a Christian is supposed to listen to the will of God through the Holy Spirit, and act to do whatever it tells us. However, just as the Jedi order had become to strict at the time of the prequels and the Jedi stopped listening to the will of the force, so have many churches and many Christians become too religious and have forgotten to listen to the will of God. Far too many Christians are only practicing Christianity as a religion and they have never experienced the power of God personally. Too many people pray before bed and before meals and go to church on Sunday, but forget to practice compassion, forgiveness, and to love their neighbor, and they forget to worship God with their everyday actions. Furthermore, they forget that prayer is supposed to be a 2 way conversation with God, and they just ask and ask for themselves and forget to ask God what He wants us to do for Him. They ignore the fact that God wants a personal relationship with us, that He wants to use us and that miracles are sill happening on modern day. If we are obedient and listen to Him, He will use us, and we will be seeing the supernatural in our natural lives. (Well, you guys can decide to believe this last bit or not, I understand if you don't believe it now, but I really hope you do see it some day)
Often times people ask me, why I don't swear, drink, or want to have sex before marriage, and the answer is that the joy that comes from serving God and following his ways is way greater and more satisfying than any of these smaller pleasures that only last for a few minutes or hours. As you said, the life of a Jedi is hard. It is hard to put your own pleasures aside and to give your self away for the service of the greater good, but it is WAY WAY WORTH IT.
Really good comparison, I was thinking the same thing.
@wespozo Well, I beg to differ. I'll tell you something, I have so much faith in my God that I believe that if you call upon His name (Jesus), He will show himself to you. Comment if He did.
I understand people's disbelief since it's so rare to see God's presence in this socoety due to religion. But I'm telling you He's real and I've seen His power.
I understand that I'm just some kid on the internet and that I could be just making claims but seriously, if you seek God with all your heart you will find Him.
@@citlalicervantes6498 you might be right to some extent but GOD does not have flesh or bones or skin. HE is made of pure blinding light, HE talks to us through signs, and not face to face.
IT is said that once Prophet Moses out of his curiosity asked GOD that he wanted to see Gods face but GOD warned him that if HE were to show HIS face, then Prophet Moses wont be able to bear looking upon HIS GLORIOUS FACE, but still Prophet Moses persisted and so GOD had no choice but to fulfill the wish of HIS servant. It is said that when GOD revealed HIMSELF in his Glorious form of not bones not flesh not skin but in the form of pure blinding light, that PRophet Moses was not able to bear the extreme and pure white light, he was blinded and ultimately fell unconscious, it is said during that time everything in the vicinity had turned to dust, and when PRophet Moses came to be he immediately fell to the ground and asked for forgiveness and repented....... GOD having a form are just tales and myths created by people who dont understand WHO GOD in reality is, beacuse IF GOD were ever to descend upon the earth in all HIS magnificent glory then all wars and hunger and injustices would end but we should understand one thing and that the galaxy as a whole was created beacuse of SATANS challenge to GOD himself, and it was SATAN himself who had turned the wheels towards the creation of earth through deception and deceptive move he made on Adam and Eve which in turn made Adam and Eve to have bodies of flesh....
@@UnclePhil7448 You're very right, and most of us meet God, not face to face, but through signs that can only be done by Him alone.
@@citlalicervantes6498 Agreed :D
The beautiful thing about Star Wars is that there are so many possible theories and viewpoints on every aspect. People can have different views on the Force and what balance is and find evidence to justify that.
There's the viewpoint of Vergere from NJO: Traitor, that there is no light or dark side. There is only the Force, and the Force is one, that the Force doesn't take sides because it doesn't have sides. "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion - but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness - true greatness of any kind requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind. If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it, but you do. The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one inside your own heart."
There is the philosophy of Kreia, who believed that the Force was not some benevolent thing and that the constant wars between Jedi and Sith would tear the galaxy apart. Kreia always emphasized in KOTOR 2 (which is an amazing game that discusses the thematic question: "What is the Force?") that a person's internal strength and will was more important than their strength in the Force. "I hate the Force, I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance when countless lives are lost." What she says here is true, because in order to return balance to the Force, millions and billions of people die in the Clone Wars, Anakin turns to the dark side and kills tens of thousands of Jedi, and an Empire rises for twenty five years and a civil war is fought that destroys countless other lives.
Then there are those who see balance as a balance between the Living Force and the Unifying/Cosmic Force, and that the Jedi fell because they abandoned love as a form of the light, when in fact love is a part of the Living Force's light side and that Anakin was meant to humble the Jedi and show them that love is the answer to the darkness, as it was his love for his son, his attachment to him, that defeated Vader and saved the Jedi. This is why Qui-Gon was so important, as he was a follower of the Living Force, while Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council followed the Unifying Force. Had Qui-Gon lived when Anakin was receiving nightmares about Padme dying, he would have told him to be mindful of the Living Force and to not let one's vision of the future affect the present. Remember, Padme was never in any danger until Anakin took the dark path and choked her.
This is the beauty of Star Wars, everyone can have their own opinion and it will often be valid in some way, shape, or form. To those of you who have read this whole thing, I hope you have a great day, and may the Force be with you.