When I first became a Star Wars fan in the early 2000s, I read a thread in an online fan forum about the balance in the force and some very wise person had posted a kind of a definition of balance and the role of the Jedi and the Sith concerning the force. They wrote: The force is like a river. The Sith disturb the flow of the water by building a barrier and trying to accumulating it for themselves. The Jedi just dive in and go along with the flow of the water without disturbing it. Balance is accomplished when nobody is disturbing the flow of the water, i.e. when there are no Sith / dark side users. I still embrace this definition or metaphor for the force till this day. It has shaped how I think about the force.
Thank you. People seem to miss that characters or people aren't supposed to be mirrors of yourself. They can be, they can be "relatable" and "flawed" They can also be "evil" and "corrupted" And they can be simply "good" "selfless" or an "ifeal we aspire to" This is what modern story telling is missing. Making everything dark or gray isn't hard at all. If I wanted to see "someone I can relate to" 24/7 my eyes wouldn't ever leave the mirror.
Exactly. Mirrors are cool but you can't create a perfect mirror of everyone. Relatability comes from situation, not beliefs. For example, I can relate to Johnny in Cobra Kai, but I don't condone the philosophy of Cobra Kai. All that to say good people, such as Jedi, can be relatable.
actually the misunderstanding is way before Darth Mickey took contral.🤣🙃. IMO TCW and any of the SW games are all misunderstood the balance of the Force.
At least in my opinion and belief both the Jedi and sith especially the Jedi needed to be wiped out for their to be balance in the force just like how we human beings at least me in particular need both good and bad to be human and the force doesn’t just tip to one side or the other side but has to be in the middle or a little bit of both and I say especially the Jedi need to be wiped out because they don’t know what balance really is and I will say the sith actually do know what it is at least compared to the Jedi like when anakin and palpatine talk in the opera scene palpatine convinces anakin that the Jedi are no different than the sith and think they are thus making them hypocrites but the point palpatine tries to make is that theirs no difference between them it’s all a point of view prospective and matter of perception prospective and that due to how the Jedi and sith are both human they both have good and bad in them and somewhat use the force for their own agendas and that it’s not all about good and bad so that’s what I mean and I do think the sith are more balanced than the Jedi due to what palpatine was teaching anakin in the opera scene so in that case the Jedi especially needed to be wiped out more so than the sith
Are you going to take Palpatine’s word at face value, the same Palpatine that manipulated the Clone Wars, and I disagree with the fact the sith are more balanced because of the don’t care about others and even if you killed all force users in the galaxy there will still not be balance because of those who will try to take, kill, and destroy.
The famous video "The Philosphy of Kreia: a Critical Examination of Star Wars" is a recommended source for those who would like to go deeper about this argument. Good job by the way Thor!
Yes. The Force is balance. It is the life that surrounds and binds us, and by listening to it and following it's guidance you can be used for good. The Dark is just what we call the stain produced by evil individuals imposing their selfishness upon the force.
I remember when everyone after Ep7 was discussing what balance meant but George was telling it the hole time. And everyone was expecting Luke to be a grey Jedi in 8. I’m glad Disney didn’t introduce grey Jedi because it would basically destroy George‘s vision for the force
Grey Jedi as an organization is a dumb idea. A grey Jedi, if they were alone, would have to be someone who used the dark side in a Jedi like act. However it's a drug and over time they get hooked to using it and eventually become a full fledged Sith.
Disney did imply the existence of the Gray Jedi, they just lacked the "balls" to openly admit it. Rey and Kylo are Gray Jedi. Rey embraces the dark side constantly in films, while Kylo for some reason; "Reylo," is never fully consumed by the dark side...even after murdering an unarmed old man, and ordering the execution of a small village, or murdering his own father in cold blood...he should be a level 20 Sith lord for that. Hell, they wouldn't even acknowledge that he was a Sith. For all its endeavors Disney is fucking spineless. They tried to play it safe for the general audience while pissing all over the fans. One of the first things I noticed about The Force Awakens was the way Disney changed the way the Star Wars Universe works to fit around Rey and Kylo, instead of making Rey and Kylo fit into the Star Wars Universe and that sickens me to this very day because that didn't change with any of the new films.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 Kylo should have gone full fledged sith lord. Murder, murder, murder and have him become a unhinged sith lord. Vader had fear. Kylo executes people for failure, no matter how small. He has no self control, and he's more powerful than Vader in that regard. But due to his lack of discipline he cannot control his raw power. Then Rey tries to change him, but suffers and looses many friends over her trying to turn him back. He never does, and Rey has to choose between her attachments and the dark side, or let go of her attachment to him and be the light side.
Balance isn't 2 Sith and 2 Jedi, it's no Sith at all. The dark side inherently brings imbalance. One is never to utilize its power, but one must accept that the dark side lives in every living being. Yoda accepted his own dark side in the Clone Wars, therefore achieved balance and was granted to live on beyond death. Balance was established in Return of the Jedi when the Jedi reigned and the Sith were destroyed. A happy ending.
Exactly. The dark side is inevitable, but that does not mean one should use it. That's why the Sith are the bad guys. Anakin didn't bring balance to the Force by killing a bunch of Jedi and "equalizing the numbers," because that logic inherently makes no sense. The numbers were never equal to begin with. As you said, bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith, which is what Anakin was born to do.
Agreed. I've seen so many comments before about how the Jedi needed to be exterminated along with the Sith to bring balance. They didn't need to be murdered, they just needed to improve.
The biggest distinction that I think we should make is between light and dark vs good and evil. In the natural world, dark is not evil and is in equilibrium with light. Evil, however, seeks to unbalance things by its nature since it tries to destroy good. Good is the side of freedom, so if dominant, will allow evil to exist thus maintaining the balance of allowing both to exist.
I’ve never been one that has been interested in the mystery or even exploring the Force but Thor has really changed that for me honestly. Such a great TH-camr man.
In other words, the people think who think that balance means using both good and evil subscribe to the philosophy of "too much good is bad and too much bad is bad.''
Rian Johnson clearly didn't understand how balance worked in Star Wars given how he presented it in the Last Jedi. He implied in that film that Rey was growing stronger because the Dark Side was so strong, that the Force increasing her straight in the light so she could match Kylo Ren and balance out the Dark Side. Snoke said these exact words and it goes against everything Lucas said about the balance in the Force. Also, Rain had Luke say in his first lesson that the Dark Side was necessary to balance out the Light, again butchering what Lucas and the previous films presented the Force as. And the idea of the Force "forcing" the Light side and Dark Side to balance each other out is intently flawed because it would lead perpetual fighting. There was never be peace because the other side would always rise up no matter how many times you beat them and there was nothing you could do about it as the Force would just power up you enemy to match you. Not to mention this flies in the face of the 1000 generation of peace the Jedi established. That could not have existed if the Force just made the Dark Side rise up again to balance things out.
You need to understand that I am very happy being a Jedi. I doesn't matter that I will never fall in love, never have a family, or never have a lot of money. It done't even matter that I was killed because ultimately, I died very happy. I died doing good things to help other people. That's all you need to live a happy and fulfilling life. I choose to be a Jedi, to help others. Strip away all the things that don't matter, all those material possessions. All I need is the Force and it is what leads me to save lives. I know that's the purpose of life. died happy and at peace. Can anyone truly ask for more than to have lived a life worth living? :-)
Really loving these videos, Thor! You make a powerful and persuasive argument. "And we're looking at their way from a very Western materialistic perspective, and feeling sorry for them that they don't live like we do, as if our way is the only correct way to live." What, there are other correct ways to live besides mine? This is 2020, a time when we all live in our own self-centered bubbles and only accept things we already believe. What kind of talk is that? Next you'll have us thinking that maybe we can learn something from others, and then where will we be? Gungans and Jawas living together. Mass hysteria! Seriously though, you've touched on something that makes Star Wars as a whole deeper than most people realize: George Lucas was influenced by both Eastern and Western philosophies (along with other things) and he put those influences into the story. His intent was to expose young people to ideas they might not otherwise see when they were at a very impressionable age. That kind of thing can be incredibly ham handed when it's obvious ("very special" episodes of old TV shows, and so on), but Lucas did it exceptionally well by weaving his ideas into the background of the fictional universe itself. For me the nature of the Jedi is captured in that phrase "Jedi Knight," even if they're not all Knights. For a westerner, the ideal knight (in fiction) was somebody who rode around on a horse righting wrongs, while following the code of Chivalry. That's very close to a Jedi. They were even supposed to forgo attachments to others. They'd have one true love who'd be a princess or upper class lady of some sort, and even though they'd long to be with her (and go on about this extensively in verse) the code of Chivalry would compel them to be forever apart because they had to give their lives to the cause of justice and not to another. And quite often magic or destiny or God would fill a role in the story somewhat like the Force, giving them hints and help along the way. And they were servants too, serving a liege lord or Chivalry in much the same way Jedi serve the will of the Force. But there are major differences between the two. Knights were supposed to fight, they earned their honor through combat. Jedi train in fighting techniques, but they don't have to fight others to do good. There are Jedi librarians and teachers who are as respected as the others. And honor is a concept that just doesn't exist for Jedi. That's where Lucas was more inspired by the East than the West, and it makes the Jedi truly selfless in a way that knights were not.
Those who want to advocate for the use of both "sides" of the Force do so because they desire power. They would have already fallen into the trap of the dark side.
The beginning of the end probably started thousands of years ago, and Qui Gon's death may have just been an unfortunate result of that. I also wonder how differently things would have turned out if Qui Gon had survived to train Anakin.
@Optimus Prime I think I agree. Let's not forget that Qui-Gon's insistence was the only reason Anakin was trained. Every other Jedi thought Anakin was too emotionally attached and they were right! It's the emotion that led to the Jedi all being destroyed. If Anakin was never trained, there is a good chance Sidious would have never been able to rise to power. Likebelieves in all the standards stuff about helping people, meditating, and controlling he own emotions. Qui-Gon
Fantastic take. I'm glad you articulated this so well. I've seen so many arguments about 'balance' and people talk about how the Jedi were taken down by Order 66 because the force 'needed balancing' with the Jedi too dominant. I thought it was such an absurd thing to say. This was a great interpretation I will share with others.
It's not a completely absurd idea, but I think people take it the wrong way. I can see an argument that the Jedi did unbalance the force not by becoming "too dominant" but by instead focusing too much on dogma, traditionalism and inwardly focused that they couldn't actually connect to and coexist with the galaxy properly. The Jedi had become both too insular and too integrated with the Republic, limiting their ability to change as the galaxy changes and blinding them to the reality of the situation. Order 66 didn't happen because the Force allowed it to "balance itself out" but instead is a consequence of the Jedi's shifting away from understanding the Force and living in balance with it to instead exist as a Jedi should. And in their destruction it would allow something new to arise. I guess it's misplacing the order of events, in my perspective. Order 66 didn't happen because The Force needed to balance out. The Jedi were unbalanced, which allowed Order 66 to happen because they couldn't see it coming.
@@AndreNitroX isn't it funny how this makes Rey's role non-sense as well? I mean, Sith are supposed to have an easier and faster growth, so they are quality over quantity when it comes to a threat (Luke even needed to convince one of them to come over to the light side to barely survive the emperor) Yet Rey just comes and is stronger than Luke and Kylo, one who had decades to grow, and the other who is supposed to have a faster growth.
Denker Bosu lets get one thing straight, Rey wasn’t stronger then Kylo. In the first movie his power is considerably higher then hers, even when he is injured and barely standing he still overwhelms her amateur technique. The only reason she won that fight was because Kylo was wounded and she called upon the Dark Side to beat him(Her expressions are aggressive, and her form matches that considering her heritage). The last Jedi is where I would consider them nearly equals. And in The Rise of Skywalker you have to be an absolute moron not too notice how superior Kylo was to Rey in their duel, Rey only beat him because he let his guard down seeing his mother. Rey is not stronger then Kylo. As for her being stronger then Luke... that makes sense. Luke grew up as a moisture farmer tending to crops with very little fighting experience, but he made up for that with his piloting skills which are far superior to Rey’s. Compare that to Rey who was a scavenger her entire life, and deals with Ruffians every now and again showing she has experience dealing with Scum. Aside from that though Luke did have some things going for him, mostly that he was able to control his fear and adapt to situations. Rey is stronger then Luke in most aspects if only because of how they were raised, with Rey being in a hostile living compared to the Farmboy Luke.
100% agree with you. Equal Sith to Jedi always make me retch. There is no Light Side, only the Force and the Dark Side is itself an imbalance of the Force.
It confuses me that people just assume that having 2 equally large groups of people who hate each other's guts and fundamentally disagree on everything try to co-exist will lead to a good outcome.
If there is nor war there is no progress that us the reality . The idea that peace is the only way does not work well in actual reality you need peace but then at times you need wars awell . Only in the afterlife will there be everlasting peace this world however not.@@oliveragag8576
Yes! It’s always bugged me when people say that balance means an equal amount of Sith or that there should be “gray Jedi” (which I don’t think actually exist in the Star Wars universe.)
Thank you! The whole "2 Jedi and 2 Sith = Balance!" and "you have to use both light and dark to be fully balanced in the Force" hot takes have always infuriated me, because that is a gross misunderstanding of what Lucas intended when he first created the Force as a concept. The idea that the Force is like a set of scales or something like that isn't wrong by itself, but Light and Dark sides of the Force are not the two sides of the scales, the Light side IS the scales, and the Dark side is an outside force acting upon it to put it out of balance. Now usually it works out okay that there isn't only Light side, since as long as the scales are roughly even you could say it's balanced (it's as close as you're going to get), but the Sith and other Dark sider users try to tip one side heavily in their favor, and in favor of the Dark side by extension, which is the antithesis of what balance in the Force is supposed to be. A little bit of Dark side here and there isn't that bad, but a lot of it is, hence why the Jedi are needed and the Sith are not. As long as there is the Dark side, there will be Dark force users, like the Sith, so the Jedi and those like them are constantly needed.
Passion is NOT the jedi way, there code literally says, "there is no passion" and luke was perfectly balanced. He was able to form intimate relationships while still putting others before himself. He broke the code but then created a better code that doesnt forbid everything and let's you explore the force. So yes, the jedi are bad, but not Luke's jedi
@@goodmind4940 It was a misstype idiot. Instead of being an asshole, you could have told me I made a mistake or was incorrect. But no, you had to call me a dumbass just because you disagreed with me. Now I see why people call our fanbase toxic.
Luke didn't break the code at all. What people don't seem to understand is that the prequel era Jedi just took the code far to seriously. The bulk of the Orders history (in legends) allowed Jedi to be married and have families (There was a point in time where there were jedi lineages.). It was just that certain members in the order were firmly against it throughout it's history and occasionally came to high positions in the order. Then post Ruusan those people were primarily in those positions and that belief became common place. Luke didn't create anything, he just took followed the code the way the Jedi had for most of it's history.
George Lucas intended balance to mean the extermination of the Sith, not equal parts light and dark. However, I believe the modification we can make to appease those who aren't satisfied with this explanation is to say that once the Sith are exterminated (as they are almost always incapable of reversion, with the exception of Vader and Darth Revan), the existing Jedi can take up the role of "Gray Jedi" and be more in tune with the Force as a whole, not just the Light side of it (like Qui-Gon Jinn). In other words, they cease being the _counter_ to the Sith, but become the living manipulators of the Force itself. Equal parts light AND dark, yet neither (much like Bendu or Mace Windu). This is how I would like to think of Star Wars immediately following the Return of the Jedi (excluding the Sequel trilogy) where Luke and Leia Skywalker become the "guardians" of the Force in the galaxy you might say.
@@emberfist8347 prove it. She was destroying the force's grip on destiny and restoring free will to the galaxy's inhabitants. I would compare Kreia to the greek god of legend Prometheus. To some, a lifetime of servitude is worse than having freedom for a brief moment and then dying. Also since you're on a Kreia obsession: th-cam.com/video/-Z0S0Z8lUTg/w-d-xo.html watch and enjoy.
@@emberfist8347 That's why she sought out the exile in the prologue of Kotor 2. Her ability to cut herself off from the force was the experiment she needed to understand in order to go forward with her place to do the same to the entire galaxy in a ritual that i suspect was taught to her by Darth Revan himself. It's rather ingenuous when you think about probables to such an undertaking.
To use a biblical quote, the prequal jedi flaw was they followed the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. They followed their code as strict and rigid laws instead of the ideals behind them.
Well I think a lot of people come down the Jedi for unfair reasons. The Jedi's laws exist for a reason. They are strict for a reason. But they are also self imposed, the Jedi choose this life. I think a lot of people come down hard on the Jedi just because they don't like living their lives in a strict, highly self disciplined manner. Historically, you imposed strict and self discipline on your life for religion, but a lot of people are non-religious these days and see it as resetting their own personal freedom. So they don't understand why the Jedi live the way they do and believe them to be extreme. And it's ok that they might not want to live that way but they shouldn't be so judgmental of other lives. The Jedi don't force their lifestyle on anyone and people shouldn't judge the Jedi for living that way. But a lot Jedi practices were inspired by religion and that extends to a lot of their strict requirements. I think people just need to accept that the Jedi choose to live a different life than the do and that strict rules is what they've chosen for themselves.
"Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu." For another topic id love to know more about force creatures that are or at least seemed to be balanced or grey force users. Balance of the force meant ridding the dark side from the force so it could be pure, at least that's how i understood it.
I originally saw the two Sith two Jedi equals balance used as a joke. Though legends material had a couple of times tried to come toward the grey Jedi concept, which when done right is really a good concept with eastern inspiration.
Balance in the Force is Harmony. That pretty much sums it all up. A personal analogy I tell people when talking about this is that balance is akin to the "Perfect Steak". The perfect steak is not equal parts protein ("light") and salt/seasoning ("dark"). Nor is it one single recipe that everyone should follow, because everyone likes his/her steak a little different than the next fellow: some like it with a touch more salt or pepper; some like to finish it with rosemary and butter; others prefer their protein to be anything other than beef; still, others like to add spice and heat. Even the preference for sauces will be different. But the essence of a well-cooked steak is the same: juicy, tender, nicely seasoned and the flavors of the protein take center stage. Sure, you can eat the steak unseasoned ("all light") but that would be bland and boring. But what is quite dangerous is to overwhelm the steak with salt and extra flavoring ("immersed in the dark side", like the Sith) because not only will you lose the essence of the steak ("the essence of the Force", i.e. Life), but it might make you sick, too.
True, I find it weird too, but a lot of people do see it that way. The way I see it the primary flaw of the prequel Jedi were their need to KILL the Sith. They should've tried to redeem them instead. Carry them down the right path. Truly destroy the darkness within their hearts by replacing it with light. Luckily, Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order held this belief so the way I see it the Jedi are fundamentally good.
Scrabdusan Productions Then the question becomes, do they want redemption in the first place? The Sith believe that the Jedi are their mortal enemies, something to be overcome and destroyed. That belief’s been carried down countless generations, and it’s all most of them have known or need to know. It’s certainly noble to make the attempt, but one day you’ll come across someone who doesn’t want to be saved.
@@christianfarren1179 That is always a possibility. All I'm saying is that I think it's cool that Luke's Jedi at least try to redeem the dark side. If it can't be saved then by all means destroy it.
The Jedi in the prequels were out of balance because they were no longer serving the will of the Force but the will of government and the republic. The dark side brings only imbalance, never balance because they never do the will of the Force. They only use the force for their own selfish gain.
I'm literally writing a script about this, started about three days ago, the subject is the nature of the force and how filoni and therefore disney continually get star wars wrong. I'm amazed you released this as I'm writing mine, that's crazy. I even talk about life, death and how the jedi serve the will of the force, keeping the balance, and the sith go against the will of the force, disrupting the balance. This is insane lol.
@@goodmind4940 when Lucas explained to him about balance, Filing took it to mean 2=2 etc. Filoni, Hidalgo, theyve brought that into the Disney canon, which is why Disney is obsessed with equal numbers of sith and jedi, and freddie prinze jr went on a rant about 2 jedi and 2 sith makes balance. The entire premise of disneys star wars is flawed because one or two people misunderstood something.
@@emberfist8347 the thing is, balance was brought to the force by no sith remaining, but one jedi remaining. How is that balance if you go by a ratio? It isnt. Its balance because the jedi serve the force, the natural order of things. Balance isn't one sith, one jedi, balance is serving the will of the force, the natural order if you will.
@@emberfist8347 right. And there is a sister. The sister is happy with the things but the brother always wants more. Which is the same as the jedi serving the will of the force but the sith wanting more. If the balance of ratio isn't about how many people are on what side, then you're proving my point for me. Felonies never understood that balance wasn't about ratio and that transfered to disney.
3 years ago video but really like this. It crazy how many people are convinced you need to have equal amounts of sith and jedi, when it's not consistent at all with the films. And this video does a really good job of explaining the force's balance.
It makes no sense that equal Jedi and Sith would mean balance. The force existed long before either the Jedi or the Sith and it will exist long after. Both are just groups of beings who use the force in a particular way. The Jedi as they should have been are a group who follow the will of the force and seek to deal with with those who would cause imbalance in the force such as the Sith who use it selfishly and so will act in ways that will create imbalance. Whereas because the Jedi use the force selflessly, they should not be acting in a way that will cause imbalance. By destroying the Sith in Episode VI, Anakin created balance for a time because he killed the beings who were causing imbalance. The mere existence of Jedi or Sith does not affect balance but rather their actions do. Palpatine's mere existence did not threaton balance but rather his actions in creating conflict in the galaxy did.
@@Ismail-db1vj True he did sacrifice himself for his son, but the sacrifice was about realizing that he still has good in him. That as Luke said before, the dark hadn't taken him fully.
Here's the thing about Balance in Star Wars. When it comes to force users, the Light side seeks to balance the force, to be at one with the force. Dark siders seek to tip the scales, and to use the force. This isn't the balance of Yin and Yang, positive and negative, it's the balance of life vs. death. The balance of life is hard, and easily disrupted, and too far in one direction causes catastrophe. Death on the other hand is easy, thus why the majority of the universe is lifeless hunks of rock suspended in space. The two sides seek to promote themselves, but one leads to ACTUAL balance, while the other leads to oblivion.
And the Jedi are not against death either. Death is a natural part of life, it is very much in line with the Light side. But what isn't in line is murder which the Sith promote. Death is natural, murder is unnatural. The Jedi won't try and stop death but they will try and stop murder and the Sith because those are unnatural.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Well what happens when you promote death? Murder, war, genocide, suicide, pollution, devastation. There is a difference in letting things happen naturally, and causing things to happen. For instance cancer is a natural disease, but your still gonna fight it, promoting life. And taking medicine to fight the cancer is unnatural, but hardly against the Jedi code. On the other hand intentionally giving someone cancer, that would be promoting death. Death is part of life yes, but Jedi are still in service to life, and trying to maintain and protect that life. The Sith seek power, worship power in fact, but in that quest to control the force for themselves, end up becoming servants to the darkside, and while negative emotions and dark desires fuel the darkside, the engine that uses that fuel is ultimately death. The servants just don't know that, because they have been enslaved by darkness.
There is still evil in the galaxy, even when the Sith are destroyed. Just look at the Imperial Warlords, crimelords, slavery, war, famine etc. So in my opinion the absence of sith does not balance everything, especially when there are dark jedi, night witches and whatever else around. This balance of the Force is referred to in a prophecy which according to Yoda could have been misread. So it is up to anyone to believe in what he thinks is the right interpretation.
There are some crystals that are red without influence of a "dark side" user, but the influence of nature. Therefore, those red crystals are natural, but the "dark side" used by dark siders is born from selfishness, so it isn't natural. So in balance, there is natural light side and natural dark side, but not the "unnatural" dark side that sith lords used to create synthetic crystals for example. Also, i'm spanish, and i don't remember "artificial" in english. That is the word i wanted to use.
Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings said it best when tempted to carry the Ring: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this ring for a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."
I always understood the balance of the Force being the harmony between life and death - the balance of the “living force” and the “netherworld of the force.” The Jedi are selfless, and give their lives for the balance; completely selfless, accepting the cycle of life and death. The Sith try to upset this balance and transcend death; hence plagueis being the penultimate point of dark side force use. Palpatine tried to pursue his master down this path of living forever. Vader brought balance by destroying this transcendent evil
There are (at least) 4 theological views of Balance/Harmony that we see in Star Wars: 1) For the Jedi, Light is the natural state of things and Darkness disrupts that natural state, so for them Balance occurs when the Light is dominant (i.e., "you were supposed to defeat the Sith ... and bring Balance to the Force"); 2) For the Sith, Darkness (chaos, conflict) is the natural state and the Light is a lie, so for them Balance is when the Dark is dominant; 3) For the Mortis Father, Balance between Light and Dark is a desirable end but must be actively maintained (which is why he needs Anakin); 4) For Bendu; he considers himself beyond such considerations as Jedi/Sith and Light/Dark (he's probably the closest we see to what most people think of as a Gray Jedi). I don't know if its deliberate on the part of George/Dave/etc., but its fun for the whole myth that we see these different views without a complete definition. Gives us something to play with!
Force balance in Star Wars means the absence of the Sith. Dark side users twist the use of the Force for their own gain, which affects others and themselves negatively. That's bad. Jedi use the Force as intended and affect others and themselves positively. That's good. The absence of badness doesn't mean goodness is absent too. Walking a fine line between Jedi and Sith as a Grey Jedi won't create balance because it's impossible to use the dark side without harnessing selfishness and negativity, creating more negativity in the universe. Balance is something Jedi can strive for but something that will rarely be achieved or maintained for long, because good and evil will continue to exist, and people will always be able to choose between them.
I’m two years late but I wanna contribute. Something that fascinates me is that while the Jedi are indeed the balance, the Sith seek to break out of that cycle of control the Force has over all life. It’s interesting especially through the plagueis novel, as he tries to manipulate midichlorions to overpower the Force itself. While the Jedi are selfless, the Sith are the concept of individualism taken to the extreme, and it’s absolutely fascinating.
Very much enjoying this series on the Force, ESPECIALLY since you don't seem to be considering the sequel trilogy much at all in it. That's super helpful in staying on course and discussing the real heart of the matter. And, I agree with pretty much everything you say in this one...
I’ll make it short for you: the balance is not an equality between the Light and the Dark side. The Light side is the balance and the Dark side is the chaos that seeks to destroyed it.
I think one of the reasons this keeps coming up, is a lot of the deeper Star Wars fans are also fans of Jung. One thing you'll get out of even a cursory glance at Jung is the idea of "incorporating the shadow" -- the idea that a good man is not a weak man, but a good man is a dangerous man who keeps that danger under control, for use when needed. One of the larger conflicts within the EU was the conflict with the Vong. Some characters like Thrawn (and to some degree Palpatine) were supposed to be arguing that the galaxy needed to be unified to face such a threat. This sort "greying" of the black-and-white morality of the GFFA appealed to some, but not to others.
This happens in TCW, Yoda literally integrates his shadow into himself, but it still says dark side shouldn't control you, you just accept it as part of yourself
I’m enjoying this series of videos you’re doing on the Force, Thor. I am wondering if you would be willing to include in this series your understanding of the concept of balance as applied to the sequel trilogy? I.e., was balance thrown off again and had the chosen one prophecy been wrong? Or was the sequel trilogy about maintaining balance and staying vigilant against evil? Or is it something else? We all know the sequel trilogy is a giant cluster f*** but I’m wracking my brain trying to think of the best in-universe explanation for what balance means in this continuation of the Skywalker saga, especially considering the prophecy was already fulfilled and the main thread of Anakin’s redemption was complete by the end of Return of the Jedi. Help us Thor, you’re our only hope!
This is an excerpt from a blog I wrote. fanfi.com/blog/?p=150 What is “balance” as to what the Jedi mean? Well “balance” means several things in the dictionary: 1: Stability produced by even distribution of weight on each side of the vertical axis. 2: Equality between the totals of the two sides of an account. 3: An aesthetically pleasing integration of elements. 4: Dealing with the fate or outcome about to be determined. (The definition of Balance in the Force according to the prophecy.) So what did the Jedi mean in the prophecy? An equal number of light sided and dark sided force users? No that would not be a good thing to the Jedi. Because there were a lot of them and only two Sith. It meant peace. It meant the removal of the poison of the dark side. How do we know that? Obi-Wan said “You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!” Destroying the Sith would remove the Darkness. Destroying the Sith would mean there would only be Light and Light is Life. It is good and peace. The force is the energy that binds all living things. That is not evil or dark in any way. Too many people think the phrase "The Dark Side of the Force." means that there are 2 sides to the force. That is not true. The Dark Side is a corrupt way to access the Force. George called the dark side a poison. The Force is Life, Light, Good, etc. It is not Death, Dark, Evil, etc. The Emperor said, "Some call it unnatural." The dark side is not only corruption but also corrupts the one who uses it.
I think George said something along the lines of the Sith being what causes inbalance and the Jedi have to destroy the Sith to bring back balance because the Sith aim to use the force for their own personal gain as opposed to the Jedi who simply follow the will of the force and don't use the force as a weapon.
In Avatar, the Last Airbender, this balance is explained by uncle Iroh. There’s a conflict there as well, between the elements, represented by the nations. But the way the elements interact with each other is what brings balance and unbalance, and not about how many benders live or die. In SW, basically, it’s the same. Anakin understood, when he saw his son suffering, that he would lose everything. He was mentally unbalanced, with a lot of influence of his dark side. But, as Padmé pointed before passing, there was still good in him. Anakin resurfaces in a moment of light and defeated the emperor. He understood that, for him to save Luke and others, he would have to put himself before his son. So he sacrificed himself, bringing balance temporarily. But years after, there was another lack of balance. Then Rey and Ben restored the balance. Not only by force, but by emotion as well.
I agree with you 100%. A lot of Star Wars fans do seem to miss the point about what balance in the Force actually means. George Lucas said it best. Balance in the Force is when there are no Sith or powerful dark lords abusing the Force, and bending it to their will. The moment Vader killed Palpatine, and Anakin managed to let go of his anger, hate, and everything he feared to lose (including his life), the Force was immediately brought back into balance. All it takes is 1 powerful dark lord to unbalance the Force, and the corrupting influence most likely varies based on the power of the individual corrupting the Force through the dark side. The Force is a shared entity/energy. There is only as much Force energy as there is life in the universe whether it is sentient life, or not. The Force is not an endless source of energy. It's more like a well, or a stream. The Sith seek to drain the well for everything it's worth, and poison it. The "rule of two" Sith Order says it all from the perspective of the dark side. One Dark Lord embodies the power of the dark side, and one Sith apprentice craves that power. The less Sith there are, the more power the Sith have to draw upon. The light side is basically just the Force itself uncorrupted, and pure. There can be unlimited Jedi without bringing the Force out of balance because the Jedi strive to live in harmony with the Force as their ally.
Babylon 5 has a very good take on it.. too much Jedi can be stifling.if there is no great darkness to fight, smaller and ever smaller transgressions are targeted, until you end up in a dystopia of conformity.
I was thinking about the Vorlons and Shadows when Thor was speaking on this. The Vorlons ideals were about order and stability, while the Shadows were chaos and destruction. Thats akin to nature here on Earth with natural forest fires for example damaging everything around it; but when it blows out, new nature can build.
Tried explaining this to my friends and they say they like the idea of the Dark Side not being inherently evil because it is better when things are not black and white. I understand where they come from, but I feel like even with the straightforwardness of the Dark Side being bad you can still have nuance. While Sith are using a corrupting power, not every single one is as evil as Palpatine, and there can be compelling characters who started down the Dark path for noble reasons. (And didn’t proceed to instantly slaughter younglings). Additionally, I think the Clone Wars and prequels trilogy have shown that just because the Jedi are on the correct side of the war, doesn’t mean that individual Jedi can’t be bad people or even despicable. The trap some people fall into is to have characters who can wield the Dark Side with zero consequences and can still continue down a completely good path. TSDR Just because there is a definitively good power and a definitively bad one, doesn’t mean that characters who wield each have to be so black and white.
I think the reason why so many people think balance means an equal amount of dark and light is because the word balance inherently means an equal like distribution of weight and so that must be the same for the Star Wars galaxy. This is what the Kotor games are based off of and much of the old you Star Wars books go with this idea that you need both the dark and light side in order to reach balance. which is if not The majority of what people have consumed since the end of Star Wars episode three. I understand why George Lucas is trying to say with Star Wars and I enjoy it but I like the idea that neither of the Jedi or the Sith have the right idea it sounds more “real” if that can even be a thing in Star Wars. It also adds more layers to why people turn to the Darkside then just simple quick power grabs and adds more to the light side as it is a mastering of oneself in a more set in like manner where as the Darkside is and embracing of oneself.
The Balance can only be within Oneself.....trying to balance the Universe is a Narcissitic act of Futility. Hence the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker the Chosen One
Great video, Thor. Say what you want about TFA, but I feel like JJ Abrams had the right perspective on balance. Lor San Tekka said there could be no balance without the Jedi. But sadly, this perspective seems to have been misunderstood in TLJ, where the focus seems to be in equal light and dark.
@@emberfist8347 I think I see what you mean. I just don't think the saga should have continued at all if the villains were not even force users. To me, that's what the main saga should always be about. Bringing dark siders back into the story seemingly undoes the balance Anakin achieved by killing Palpatine, but most other directors probably would've done the same thing. At least JJ seemed to understand that the balance Anakin brought about could only be restored by getting rid of all Darksiders once again.
People must be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them. Selflessly helping others may be interpreted as meddling in the lives of others. Certainly, some balance should be considered, lest people become dependent. Yoda spends a lot of time, communing with the force, deciding to interfere or not. As an example, Yoda attempts to restrain Lukes desire to help Han, Chewy and Leia at the Cloud City. “Reckless” he said, “always, his mind on the future, never on where he was, and what he was doing!”
Jasom Jensai - Star Wars So Lois Lane, carelessly, puts her life in mortal danger, because she knows, that Superman will always be there, to save her. Bad life lesson = bad movie.
Blake Tyson Lois Lanes’ guardian angel, such a waste of superman’s time. Fix her bottle, tuck her in. A Jedi has no super speed or x-ray vision, they have little time to baby sit.
Yodas epsidoes in the clone wars perfectly capture how its supposed to be. The light and dark exist in all of us. Yoda accepted that his darkness is a part of him, that there is no getting rid of it but that all of that is okay. Through trainging and being responsible he controls his darkness and doesnt let it control him or indulge in it. Thats the balance of the force for individuals and on a larger scale.
The only thing I disagree with this is that you said "The Jedi appreciate the rule of two makes their job easier". Imagine trying to spot two good friends in a crowded bar. Now try finding and correctly identifying Two Sith lords within an entire galaxy.
Its not that what star wars says is balance is misunderstood .Its that its disliked as an idea .The problem is its to simple of a philosophy for real world morality . That the light side way of doing things is always correct. I'm reminded of what GRR martin said " "That if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs?" Replace the word Aragon with Jedi and it still fits. Its why Revan and Keira are some of my favorite characters.
Refusing to believe in universal good is what Star Wars warns us never to do. Believe in good. Evil will always exist, that doesn't mean we have to manifest it just because the world is cruel.
The 'balance' was attained at the end of Return of the Jedi by severing the chain of Sith and Jedi dogma. The future was free for Luke to construct a new Jedi path that incorporated a holistic approach to emotions. The Jedi were hamstrung by their denial of emotion, and that allowed the Sith to attain complete control.
@@emberfist8347 Blake my man, you continuously read my mind. I feel like we agree on pretty much everything Star Wars, especially things that matter most like the nature of the Force and Jedi.
Same. He's pretty much the only one to truly master both the light and dark, using both in balance and harmony. He had a better understanding of the force than the near enough all of characters in the universe.
I think Revan was misguided in his vanity thinking that the only way to counter the sith empire was to control the galaxy and make it something that is only meant for war and what he was not doing was trusting in the force. That is what he learned after losing his memories and lead him to trusting in the force that it would bring someone to defeat the sith emperor, the Hero of Tython.
I think balance in the force means no conflict, when maul said the force was out of balance savage replied with “yes there is conflict, the clone war” so the prophecy about anakin destroying the sith and bringing balance probably meant anakin killing palpatine and ending war and considering he was the key to ending all 3 wars and a main contributor to killing palpatine twice then I guess that’s correct
I think priority one for the old Jedi was researching the mysteries of the force. Rebublic and people in it and being the police of the galaxy was secondary.
The idea of balance comes from keeping humanity from destroying itself or maintaining what it's meant to represent. Humanity, balance, harmony or whatever is maintained so life wouldn't be simply suffering. Do animals only suffer though, since they are free from the duty of maintaining anything. They do and they don't, they certainly fear, what actually is the sole purpose of mankind, to eliminate the need of fear.
I read the Jedi's own imbalance as a result of their attempt to supress their emotions/darkness which is linked to lack of empathy/compassion. Especially with Yoda's arc in Clone Wars. Perhaps this is where people get confused about balance because it might seem like you're supposed to embrace your darkness but really I think that Yoda learns that he cannot overcome what he does not acknowledge and so then his darkness has control of him because he choses to ignore it. Stretch that out to politics and war so that it becomes the Jedi's failure to acknowledge and confront those problems that allows an imbalance in the galaxy and force.
The Jedi needing the Sith reminds me of a line from the Weird Al Yankovic song "Yoda": "Luke, I know Darth Vader really has you annoyed, but remember if you kill him them you'll be unemployed" lol always made me laugh as a kid
Balance is inside , not just outside it is balance within yourself and to be a good person, when you act with selfishness, and become a selfish person you become evil wanting more and more, When you are selfless you a re a good person working for the betterment of others and when you are selfless you create happiness
Rewatch the Mortis Arc and it all makes sense. Balance is when the Dark side and the Light aren't in conflict. Unfortunately, the nature of the Dark Side is evil, always stirring up conflict with the light, "Do not hate him father. It is his nature." Conflict must exist, whether the light want's it to or not. Also, the Father showed us that no one can be perfectly in the middle, "grey." If one man tries to control that much opposing power the two sides will at one point be forced to destroy each other. That's why Anakin destroying the Sith creates balance because now there are no force users on the dark side who are trying to battle and destroy the light.
The Bendu in Star Wars Rebels also illustrates this well. Filoni again puts forward the idea of a force wielder in the middle. He is shown as wise in early episodes but in the end it is shown that the Bendu is still very arrogant and not willing to defend his planet or understand Kanan's selfless act, trying to save his friends and the galaxy from "overwhelming evil". He just sees the conflict between light and dark as petty, ignoring the long-term damage the dark will bring.
The issue is there will always at every moment in time be Dark Side users somewhere in the cosmos. If balance meant destroying all dark side users for the rest of time, then balance is not possible to achieve as they will always exist until no sapient life exists anymore. If its true that balance in the Force means no dark side users anywhere then the only time the Force was ever in balance was before sapient life existed in the cosmos.
the Father wears gray clothes, controls both his son and his daughter, and talks about balance, which leads many to believe that he represents the gray Jedi. however, if you pay attention to his words and actions, he never demonstrates any qualities of the dark side. also, his eyes are never yellow.
@@emberfist8347 I'm talking about other Dark Side Force factions that no doubt occupy other galaxies. For all the Jedi knew, there were other ones out there in the cosmos with greater reach and influence then the Sith disrupting balance and as big of or bigger scale. They wouldn't know cos they'd never reach those galaxies to find out. Ultimately its irrelevant cos the story is centered in the SW main galaxy. But if balance was the end of all Dark side users ever for the rest of time then forget about balance cos its never happening.
@@emberfist8347 that's what I am saying his design makes him seem equal light and dark, but his words and actions line up with the light side far more than the dark side. he keeps his children imprisoned on Mortis not for their sake, but for the galaxies sake. the father tells Anakin, "you cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children, and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." this and many other moments reveal that he is selfless. he does what he hates to save the galaxy.
While I still do feel balance requires the Jedi to be more open to the dark side, this doesn't, and never did, mean they had to embrace it, simply not fear it the way they do. Much like how in order to curtail violence one first shouldn't fear it, but accept there are in fact times and places for it, so too for there to be balance the light must allow the dark to exist in it's proper times, and places. Hell look at how Qui-gon reacted to Anakin, or the sith vs how the order did, he took steps to curtail thing, but he didn't, at least from what I'm aware of, act out of a fear of it, like wise (original)Luke didn't defeat Palpatine by fighting him, but by reaching out to his fallen father, and likewise one of the least destructive Sith, at least in legends, Darth Vectivus, was one that found and stayed in his time and place. So yeah the problem lay not with the ideals, but with the practice, for both the Jedi, and the Sith, and balance isn't a numbers game.
The Jedi don't fear the dark side, they understand that it is a corrupting force. It is shown how uncontrol able the dark side is when Anakin chokes the woman he loves. The dark side is like a drug, the more you use it, the more it corrupts you until one day you wake up to find yours eating your own children. That's why the gray Jedi do not exist because gray Jedi are just Jedi following the path to the dark side. One of the biggest problems with the EU is a lot of writers romanticize the dark side, this is nihilism which is one of the reason why Lucas never fully excepted the EU.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 ah but even if we use the drug metaphor there would be times and places for it, just as there is for morphine and and most, if not all, drugs, and I'd argue the Jedi's response to it was still motivated by fear, or greed, much like many drug programs in the war on drugs are Though I'd also argue the reason the EU authors "romanticized" the dark side was in an attempt to reconcile the inconsistencies caused by the grafting of the western ideals of good and evil from the hero's tale format of the trilogy, with the eastern dharmic philosophies that served as the inspiration for the force
@@James-ep2bx But the biggest problem with your theory is that it contradicts everything Lucas has been saying and the movies themselves for decades. The desire for Gray Jedi is nothing more than fan wish fulfillment that was sparked by The Knights of the Old Republic video game. After that game came out many fans became retarded with the contradictory nihilism of their own power fantasies. It's fans wanting to have their dark side powers without the consequences that come with it. It's Luke Skywalker temporarily turning to the dark side to defeat the clone of the Emperor....it's dumb and contradicts the growth of his character. Fear greed, you accuse the Jedi of this, while they are the ones resisting the fear and greed, and the temptations of the dark side. Respectfully, you don't know what you are talking about. You think the dark side is cool and you want to legitimize it. It is what it is....a corrupting force, that is the very message of the films. And again one of the reason why Lucas never acknowledged the EU was because many writers tried to legitimize the dark side. The fact is Star Wars was a mess long before Disney got their hands on it...but back then fans tried to clean it up and created the canon that Disney was quick to reject. It's a simple concept, you have a choice of being good or evil and its a struggle to follow the right path. Most criminals do not believe they are evil people, even though they do evil things, and they make excuses to legitimize why they do evil. Most killers don't start out wanting to be killers....no, they build themselves up toward it. Also we know physiologically once you start killing, you want to do it again. That is way I used the drug metaphor. People aren't born evil, they are slowly corrupted toward it.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 please read what _I_ typed not what you _think_ I type based on arguments seen from others, and note nowhere have I advocated for "gray Jedi" or treating the darkside as anything other then dangerous, and my argument isn't based on the EU, but on the movie's, interviews, and my own knowledge, as the 1. Lucas himself acknowledged that starwars followed the hero's tale architecture, part of that architecture is good vs evil, but 2. one look at the philosophies mentioned around the nature of the force even in episode 4 would clearly place it in the dharmic/animistic category with a holistic cosmology, which is at odds with the good vs evil of the hero's tale, especially when the "evil" analog is a cosmic force, and the simplest way to solve this inconsistencies is to decouple evil from said cosmic force, which in turn leads to one of two categories of solutions: a) the route the EU was fond of: the problem laying not in the cosmic force, but in the philosophies, which in turn would mean there could exist philosophies that incorporates it in a less distructive manner, and/or b) those like mine that see it as something dangerous, but necessary, which would mean there'd be circumstances where it was needed. Also I only accuse the Jedi of fear, because based on their actions in the movies, and to a lesser extent the clone wars series, it's the most charitable interpretation, with greed, lust for power, or stupidity being the less charitable options
@@James-ep2bx I agree that you have not advocated toward the Gray Jedi, but you are leaning in that direction. I bring it up because I've been in so many arguments with people who have advocated for their existence. Joseph Campbell's The Heroes Journeys deals with the patterns and archetypes of stories cross cultures and history. Campbell was fascinated with Lucas's use of these archetypes in the original trilogy. What we are arguing about is based on what the Jedi are suppose to be according to Lucas, compared to the dogmatic corrupt society that they had become in the prequels. So in fact you are right, in the prequels the Jedi are concerned with losing the power which the Republic had given them....hell, they even threw Ashoka under the bus for it. Qui-Jon was a pure Jedi, he was what the Jedi were meant to be, he listened to the Whill of the force and did not desire power, he did what he "must." And that didn't involve being open to the dark side, but "mindful" of it. In our arguments we are both right, but that is only because in the prequels we are shown that the Jedi are no longer who they are meant to be....their code was wrong, Lucas wrote it to be wrong...which is why their influence with the force was diminishing. They were not who they were meant to be, I argue for the Jedi who are who they are meant to be. See, in reality the Jedi were doing exactly what you suggested, they were leaving themselves open to the temptations of the dark side with their greed, with their lust for power....and yes, fear. And that was one of the best aspects about the prequels and The Clone Wars series...the Jedi were hypocrites, which is why Anakin came to believe that they are evil. So our arguments are coming from two different perspective, so I was wrong when I said that you don't know what you are talking about, it's clear that you do, more a miss understanding on my part. When you debate Star Wars as much as I have, you see a pattern of people falling into different camps, and I wrongfully placed you in the Gray Jedi camp. It's nice to be wrong from time to time.
This reminds me of a forgotten realms book. "Elfshadow" In it, a half elf assassin worked for the organisation called 'the Harpers' and every time they killed a bad guy, a member of the harpers would die shortly after. Not to spoiler the story, but someone there believed in balance so much, that they were aranging for a good guy to die as every bad guy did. Balance with a capital B lol. I think balance is good, but not to that extent lol. Nature, and the Force, knows it's own balance I think.
The Force has life and death, begining and end (Daughter and Son), The dark side takes from life and rejects death serving itself only by taking from the force, A middle or Bendu is a mistaken belief that the force will work everything out, it is the rejection of responsibility to do what's best that comes with any ability that is given
You should make a video about the midi-chlorians, and help undo the misconception that they would be the force itself, instead of the channel through which the force comunicates its will to the living beings
Balance has always been the light being dominant. The Light is the natural state of the force while the dark side is...Well, it's dark side. Obviously the dark side will always exist. It's the Sith that need to be destroyed because they use it to create galactic level turmoil. But then you have factions like the Nightsisters, who while definitively evil also more or less stick (When they were alive) to Dathomir, hence why we never saw (as far as I know) a Jedi crusade against them, or similar factions.
Perhaps there are valuable lessons to be learned by walking the path of the dark side as well as the light side. Lessons that broaden our perspective of the universe, grant us a glimpse at the wholeness of ones being and facing our fears directly.
I find it a bit weird that the prophecy says that the chosen one is said to bring balance to the force but no where does it say that the chosen one will restore balance permanently and it doesn't say anything about the end of the dark side itself... It's kinda confusing.
@@emberfist8347 Really? Because I looked it up myself on Wookiepedia and it literally says it didn't predicted the end to the dark side itself and the the balance will be restored but no permanently, it's strange.
Taking care of your friends, family, community is NOT "self-LESS"! It is very much IN SERVICE of your deepest, deepest interests! Grasping obsessively after any shining bauble that comes your way, wanting to have you cake and eat it too, is actually true selflessness, because you're completely letting outside influences determine your state of mind and your actions. Striving to fully actualize yourself does NOT require "balancing selflessness and selfishness", somehow! To be truly self-actualized means understanding that everything is part of a larger whole, and "self" is ALWAYS _interdependent_ with the "world around us". It's not an either-or proposition, it never was. When people say things like "you have to be a little selfish sometimes!" that is an inaccurate description of an underlying truth: You should strive to be completely selfish ALL of the time, as long as you understand that "self" actually, potentially includes the entire effing universe! The degree to which you're able to actualize your true self - the whole - depends on the degree of your understanding of how everything is connected with everything else. Since connection is literally what the Force IS, pure and simple - it connects everything, directly, on a visceral level, i.e. you can "feel" the truth of things in your bones - the force-sensitive can achieve a higher degree of awareness more easily than other people. And the very best of them may seem completely transcendent to our normal, everyday understanding of our place in the universe. When Obiwan gives up his life in ANH, we CALL it "selfless", but it's not! He simply has a better understanding of how everything is connected for the good, and he knows that his death is not the end of his striving but a necessary part of it! That's why trying to describe the force/light/dark/good/evil in terms of selfless vs selfish is incoherent at best and misleading at worst! The OT was open to this interpretation whereas the prequels were not. This is why the OT resonated so much more for people than the prequels did. The prequels did try to contextualize morality in the way you outlined, as selflessness vs selfishness, that's why the Jedi in the prequels look like pricks and Vader was reduced to spoiled brat. Everything else is rationalization.
To me, balance is like the concepts of utopia or perfection. Something we can strive for, but can never truly achieve. Despite their tendency towards ultimate power or galactic domination, the Sith are correct in that chaos, not peace, is the natural order of things. What matters is how you respond to it, accept and take advantage of it (Sith) or resist it and try to make something better from it (Jedi). And this is where I struggle with the Jedi/Sith divide. While the Jedi’s goals have usually been noble/well-meaning, they can become too narrow in how they define balance or unwilling to adapt to the times they’re in and the threats that arise. By contrast, the Sith are constantly evolving, adapting to whatever time period they’re in, finding new ways to accumulate power and influence and outmaneuver their enemies, which has led to the majority of their victories against the Jedi. So sadly, if I’m forced to choose, the Sith are more in line with my personal philosophy.
As you have said accept things as they are, but try to make something better for it is in a sense the Jedi way. That's an adaption? The narrow view is part of the things that fall under lost there way, so I don't necessarily see your point. Also why would caos be the natural order?
H F H F I see chaos as the the natural order because you have everyone everywhere trying to claim a piece of the world (materially or ideologically) for themselves, usually at the expense of others. In an ideal universe, everyone would work together to make sure that everyone got their fair share. But that’s the thing, some people are always going to want more than their fair share, hence chaos. As for the Jedi, you’re right in that broadening their view of balance is an adaptation. It’s necessary if they want to be effective in maintaining balance after all. My issue with them is that at a certain point, they become so secure in their position, so convinced the way they’re doing things is right, that they know best, that they can’t see or address the problems that are right in front of them. I’m not questioning their adherence to balance. I’m questioning how far they’re willing to go in service of that goal.
With the Force involved you can't balance negative emotions. You can feel them sure, we see Jedi feel anger all the time. From Obi-Wan after Maul kills Qui-Gon to Yoda going after Sidious, to Luke beating on Vader for threatening Leia. But you when let those emotions CONTROL you, CONSUME you? Fear, anger, hate? Then you commit genocide against a people who cared for you for 13 years, you strangle your wife, take your sons hand, destroy your daughters planet. There's no happy in the Dark Side. The only one who even seems happy is Sidious but he's literally the Devil. The embodiment of evil. A clear outlier. Everyone else? Heck Vader is just waiting for something to kill him until Luke comes along. Filoni says it himself. 'Vader is miserable. That's the trap of the Dark Side. It doesn't make you happy.' Using Force lightning and murder people only 50% of the time doesn't make you balanced. It just means you're a murder and evil at least 50% of the time. And to me, it's clear in the films the Force is balanced at the end of ROTJ, when the Sith are gone and Luke stands ready to bring back the Jedi. The heroes are happy and get happy victory dance number. In ROTS everything is melancholy, dark, depressing with only baby Luke and Leia seen with a bit of light around them. Because they are the hope that we know will bring about the victory in the OT. We don't even get a mention of the light side ever in the films. Luke asks 'how will I know the bad from the good?' once in TESB but that's it. Everywhere else it's just the Force and the Dark Side. No light. Also, Lucas in 'making of the Revenge of the Sith' talks about how Anakin defies his destiny when attacking Windu instead of Sidious. His destiny was to bring about balance through the destruction of the Sith. But he chose not to and the whole of the galaxy paid for it for another 20 + years. With all of that I think it's pretty clear why the Sith are a corruption that must be gone for there to be balance. The 2 and 2 thing is just something easy our brains like to work with. Especially because as you say we're told to share and make things equal for everyone. But when you see the Sith bringing all this genocide, evil and suffering we don't need an equal amount of that whether it's fiction or real life. Honestly the less we get of that, the far more beautiful our world would be.
Anakin while throwing Palps: "Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the Force, but this, does put a smile on my face."
When I first became a Star Wars fan in the early 2000s, I read a thread in an online fan forum about the balance in the force and some very wise person had posted a kind of a definition of balance and the role of the Jedi and the Sith concerning the force. They wrote: The force is like a river. The Sith disturb the flow of the water by building a barrier and trying to accumulating it for themselves. The Jedi just dive in and go along with the flow of the water without disturbing it. Balance is accomplished when nobody is disturbing the flow of the water, i.e. when there are no Sith / dark side users.
I still embrace this definition or metaphor for the force till this day. It has shaped how I think about the force.
Ironically Sith reject this notion...
"The future is not a river to carry us. It is the ocean in which we drown, if we are not prepared." - Valkorion
Thank you. People seem to miss that characters or people aren't supposed to be mirrors of yourself. They can be, they can be "relatable" and "flawed"
They can also be "evil" and "corrupted"
And they can be simply "good" "selfless" or an "ifeal we aspire to"
This is what modern story telling is missing. Making everything dark or gray isn't hard at all. If I wanted to see "someone I can relate to" 24/7 my eyes wouldn't ever leave the mirror.
Exactly. Mirrors are cool but you can't create a perfect mirror of everyone. Relatability comes from situation, not beliefs. For example, I can relate to Johnny in Cobra Kai, but I don't condone the philosophy of Cobra Kai. All that to say good people, such as Jedi, can be relatable.
The sequel trilogy and its writers fundamentally misunderstand Star Wars and that includes the force as well
fuck you
@@patrickmarjosef6029 dude at least buy them dinner first
SW fans don't get it either
actually the misunderstanding is way before Darth Mickey took contral.🤣🙃. IMO TCW and any of the SW games are all misunderstood the balance of the Force.
@@liamdean3478when do TCW and the Star Wars games misunderstand the force. I’m not necessarily disagreeing but do you have examples?
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be
Sorry, I don’t want to ruin the 66 likes I’ll let someone else do it
Agreed
Cringe.
At least in my opinion and belief both the Jedi and sith especially the Jedi needed to be wiped out for their to be balance in the force just like how we human beings at least me in particular need both good and bad to be human and the force doesn’t just tip to one side or the other side but has to be in the middle or a little bit of both and I say especially the Jedi need to be wiped out because they don’t know what balance really is and I will say the sith actually do know what it is at least compared to the Jedi like when anakin and palpatine talk in the opera scene palpatine convinces anakin that the Jedi are no different than the sith and think they are thus making them hypocrites but the point palpatine tries to make is that theirs no difference between them it’s all a point of view prospective and matter of perception prospective and that due to how the Jedi and sith are both human they both have good and bad in them and somewhat use the force for their own agendas and that it’s not all about good and bad so that’s what I mean and I do think the sith are more balanced than the Jedi due to what palpatine was teaching anakin in the opera scene so in that case the Jedi especially needed to be wiped out more so than the sith
Are you going to take Palpatine’s word at face value, the same Palpatine that manipulated the Clone Wars, and I disagree with the fact the sith are more balanced because of the don’t care about others and even if you killed all force users in the galaxy there will still not be balance because of those who will try to take, kill, and destroy.
The famous video "The Philosphy of Kreia: a Critical Examination of Star Wars" is a recommended source for those who would like to go deeper about this argument. Good job by the way Thor!
Yes. The Force is balance. It is the life that surrounds and binds us, and by listening to it and following it's guidance you can be used for good.
The Dark is just what we call the stain produced by evil individuals imposing their selfishness upon the force.
I remember when everyone after Ep7 was discussing what balance meant but George was telling it the hole time. And everyone was expecting Luke to be a grey Jedi in 8. I’m glad Disney didn’t introduce grey Jedi because it would basically destroy George‘s vision for the force
i thought they already destroyed it with fucking up Chosen One prophecy
Андрей Шурочка yes they fucked that up but at least they didn’t destroy the foundation of it
Grey Jedi as an organization is a dumb idea. A grey Jedi, if they were alone, would have to be someone who used the dark side in a Jedi like act. However it's a drug and over time they get hooked to using it and eventually become a full fledged Sith.
Disney did imply the existence of the Gray Jedi, they just lacked the "balls" to openly admit it. Rey and Kylo are Gray Jedi. Rey embraces the dark side constantly in films, while Kylo for some reason; "Reylo," is never fully consumed by the dark side...even after murdering an unarmed old man, and ordering the execution of a small village, or murdering his own father in cold blood...he should be a level 20 Sith lord for that. Hell, they wouldn't even acknowledge that he was a Sith. For all its endeavors Disney is fucking spineless. They tried to play it safe for the general audience while pissing all over the fans. One of the first things I noticed about The Force Awakens was the way Disney changed the way the Star Wars Universe works to fit around Rey and Kylo, instead of making Rey and Kylo fit into the Star Wars Universe and that sickens me to this very day because that didn't change with any of the new films.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 Kylo should have gone full fledged sith lord. Murder, murder, murder and have him become a unhinged sith lord. Vader had fear. Kylo executes people for failure, no matter how small. He has no self control, and he's more powerful than Vader in that regard. But due to his lack of discipline he cannot control his raw power. Then Rey tries to change him, but suffers and looses many friends over her trying to turn him back. He never does, and Rey has to choose between her attachments and the dark side, or let go of her attachment to him and be the light side.
Balance isn't 2 Sith and 2 Jedi, it's no Sith at all. The dark side inherently brings imbalance. One is never to utilize its power, but one must accept that the dark side lives in every living being. Yoda accepted his own dark side in the Clone Wars, therefore achieved balance and was granted to live on beyond death. Balance was established in Return of the Jedi when the Jedi reigned and the Sith were destroyed. A happy ending.
And am ending that should never have been tampered with.
thank you. for some reason almost no one gets this
Exactly.
The dark side is inevitable, but that does not mean one should use it. That's why the Sith are the bad guys.
Anakin didn't bring balance to the Force by killing a bunch of Jedi and "equalizing the numbers," because that logic inherently makes no sense. The numbers were never equal to begin with.
As you said, bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith, which is what Anakin was born to do.
@@nutellaninja4667 Exactly dude!!! It's dumb when people said he brought balance because he killed some jedi
Agreed. I've seen so many comments before about how the Jedi needed to be exterminated along with the Sith to bring balance. They didn't need to be murdered, they just needed to improve.
The biggest distinction that I think we should make is between light and dark vs good and evil. In the natural world, dark is not evil and is in equilibrium with light. Evil, however, seeks to unbalance things by its nature since it tries to destroy good. Good is the side of freedom, so if dominant, will allow evil to exist thus maintaining the balance of allowing both to exist.
I’ve never been one that has been interested in the mystery or even exploring the Force but Thor has really changed that for me honestly. Such a great TH-camr man.
he worst inte on youtube
In other words, the people think who think that balance means using both good and evil subscribe to the philosophy of "too much good is bad and too much bad is bad.''
Rian Johnson clearly didn't understand how balance worked in Star Wars given how he presented it in the Last Jedi.
He implied in that film that Rey was growing stronger because the Dark Side was so strong, that the Force increasing her straight in the light so she could match Kylo Ren and balance out the Dark Side. Snoke said these exact words and it goes against everything Lucas said about the balance in the Force. Also, Rain had Luke say in his first lesson that the Dark Side was necessary to balance out the Light, again butchering what Lucas and the previous films presented the Force as.
And the idea of the Force "forcing" the Light side and Dark Side to balance each other out is intently flawed because it would lead perpetual fighting. There was never be peace because the other side would always rise up no matter how many times you beat them and there was nothing you could do about it as the Force would just power up you enemy to match you.
Not to mention this flies in the face of the 1000 generation of peace the Jedi established. That could not have existed if the Force just made the Dark Side rise up again to balance things out.
You need to understand that I am very happy being a Jedi. I doesn't matter that I will never fall in love, never have a family, or never have a lot of money. It done't even matter that I was killed because ultimately, I died very happy. I died doing good things to help other people. That's all you need to live a happy and fulfilling life.
I choose to be a Jedi, to help others. Strip away all the things that don't matter, all those material possessions. All I need is the Force and it is what leads me to save lives. I know that's the purpose of life. died happy and at peace. Can anyone truly ask for more than to have lived a life worth living? :-)
Really loving these videos, Thor! You make a powerful and persuasive argument.
"And we're looking at their way from a very Western materialistic perspective, and feeling sorry for them that they don't live like we do, as if our way is the only correct way to live."
What, there are other correct ways to live besides mine? This is 2020, a time when we all live in our own self-centered bubbles and only accept things we already believe. What kind of talk is that? Next you'll have us thinking that maybe we can learn something from others, and then where will we be? Gungans and Jawas living together. Mass hysteria!
Seriously though, you've touched on something that makes Star Wars as a whole deeper than most people realize: George Lucas was influenced by both Eastern and Western philosophies (along with other things) and he put those influences into the story. His intent was to expose young people to ideas they might not otherwise see when they were at a very impressionable age. That kind of thing can be incredibly ham handed when it's obvious ("very special" episodes of old TV shows, and so on), but Lucas did it exceptionally well by weaving his ideas into the background of the fictional universe itself.
For me the nature of the Jedi is captured in that phrase "Jedi Knight," even if they're not all Knights. For a westerner, the ideal knight (in fiction) was somebody who rode around on a horse righting wrongs, while following the code of Chivalry. That's very close to a Jedi. They were even supposed to forgo attachments to others. They'd have one true love who'd be a princess or upper class lady of some sort, and even though they'd long to be with her (and go on about this extensively in verse) the code of Chivalry would compel them to be forever apart because they had to give their lives to the cause of justice and not to another. And quite often magic or destiny or God would fill a role in the story somewhat like the Force, giving them hints and help along the way. And they were servants too, serving a liege lord or Chivalry in much the same way Jedi serve the will of the Force.
But there are major differences between the two. Knights were supposed to fight, they earned their honor through combat. Jedi train in fighting techniques, but they don't have to fight others to do good. There are Jedi librarians and teachers who are as respected as the others. And honor is a concept that just doesn't exist for Jedi. That's where Lucas was more inspired by the East than the West, and it makes the Jedi truly selfless in a way that knights were not.
Those who want to advocate for the use of both "sides" of the Force do so because they desire power. They would have already fallen into the trap of the dark side.
In short, Qui-gon was the hope for the order to survive and his death was the beginning of the destruction for the Jedi.
The beginning of the end probably started thousands of years ago, and Qui Gon's death may have just been an unfortunate result of that. I also wonder how differently things would have turned out if Qui Gon had survived to train Anakin.
@@krieghart5515 I think Lucas has said that he would have never fallen to the dark side and the Order would have never been destroyed
@Optimus Prime I think I agree. Let's not forget that Qui-Gon's insistence was the only reason Anakin was trained. Every other Jedi thought Anakin was too emotionally attached and they were right! It's the emotion that led to the Jedi all being destroyed. If Anakin was never trained, there is a good chance Sidious would have never been able to rise to power.
Likebelieves in all the standards stuff about helping people, meditating, and controlling he own emotions. Qui-Gon
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi wouldn't Palpatine just train Anakin himself in secret then? That might be a worse idea.
Fantastic take. I'm glad you articulated this so well. I've seen so many arguments about 'balance' and people talk about how the Jedi were taken down by Order 66 because the force 'needed balancing' with the Jedi too dominant. I thought it was such an absurd thing to say. This was a great interpretation I will share with others.
It's not a completely absurd idea, but I think people take it the wrong way. I can see an argument that the Jedi did unbalance the force not by becoming "too dominant" but by instead focusing too much on dogma, traditionalism and inwardly focused that they couldn't actually connect to and coexist with the galaxy properly. The Jedi had become both too insular and too integrated with the Republic, limiting their ability to change as the galaxy changes and blinding them to the reality of the situation. Order 66 didn't happen because the Force allowed it to "balance itself out" but instead is a consequence of the Jedi's shifting away from understanding the Force and living in balance with it to instead exist as a Jedi should. And in their destruction it would allow something new to arise.
I guess it's misplacing the order of events, in my perspective. Order 66 didn't happen because The Force needed to balance out. The Jedi were unbalanced, which allowed Order 66 to happen because they couldn't see it coming.
Thank you, so many people think that an equal amount of Jedi and Sith is balance but it’s actually just Jedi and no Sith.
Not to mention just 2 sith would tip the balance in their favor
@@AndreNitroX isn't it funny how this makes Rey's role non-sense as well?
I mean, Sith are supposed to have an easier and faster growth, so they are quality over quantity when it comes to a threat (Luke even needed to convince one of them to come over to the light side to barely survive the emperor)
Yet Rey just comes and is stronger than Luke and Kylo, one who had decades to grow, and the other who is supposed to have a faster growth.
Denker Bosu lets get one thing straight, Rey wasn’t stronger then Kylo.
In the first movie his power is considerably higher then hers, even when he is injured and barely standing he still overwhelms her amateur technique. The only reason she won that fight was because Kylo was wounded and she called upon the Dark Side to beat him(Her expressions are aggressive, and her form matches that considering her heritage).
The last Jedi is where I would consider them nearly equals. And in The Rise of Skywalker you have to be an absolute moron not too notice how superior Kylo was to Rey in their duel, Rey only beat him because he let his guard down seeing his mother.
Rey is not stronger then Kylo.
As for her being stronger then Luke... that makes sense. Luke grew up as a moisture farmer tending to crops with very little fighting experience, but he made up for that with his piloting skills which are far superior to Rey’s. Compare that to Rey who was a scavenger her entire life, and deals with Ruffians every now and again showing she has experience dealing with Scum.
Aside from that though Luke did have some things going for him, mostly that he was able to control his fear and adapt to situations. Rey is stronger then Luke in most aspects if only because of how they were raised, with Rey being in a hostile living compared to the Farmboy Luke.
@@emberfist8347 well said, that is why i feel the jedi are the balance, because theres already enough evil in the galaxy without the sith.
@@emberfist8347 your right
Finally, someone says it so well. I couldn’t have put it better. Very well done. I enjoy your videos!
Thanks for uploading the vid Thor. I now have something to listen to while I do some schoolwork.
You're very welcome. ;)
please vote REVAN for battle of heroes and villains next you guys.
Nope, he'll take second again lol
You have my word, Ry X.
@@thorskywalker OK I didn't expect that. I laughed
I'll vote as I always have
I'm telling ya, we need Jorus/Joruus C'baoth
100% agree with you.
Equal Sith to Jedi always make me retch. There is no Light Side, only the Force and the Dark Side is itself an imbalance of the Force.
It confuses me that people just assume that having 2 equally large groups of people who hate each other's guts and fundamentally disagree on everything try to co-exist will lead to a good outcome.
If there is nor war there is no progress that us the reality . The idea that peace is the only way does not work well in actual reality you need peace but then at times you need wars awell . Only in the afterlife will there be everlasting peace this world however not.@@oliveragag8576
Yes! It’s always bugged me when people say that balance means an equal amount of Sith or that there should be “gray Jedi” (which I don’t think actually exist in the Star Wars universe.)
Thank you! The whole "2 Jedi and 2 Sith = Balance!" and "you have to use both light and dark to be fully balanced in the Force" hot takes have always infuriated me, because that is a gross misunderstanding of what Lucas intended when he first created the Force as a concept. The idea that the Force is like a set of scales or something like that isn't wrong by itself, but Light and Dark sides of the Force are not the two sides of the scales, the Light side IS the scales, and the Dark side is an outside force acting upon it to put it out of balance. Now usually it works out okay that there isn't only Light side, since as long as the scales are roughly even you could say it's balanced (it's as close as you're going to get), but the Sith and other Dark sider users try to tip one side heavily in their favor, and in favor of the Dark side by extension, which is the antithesis of what balance in the Force is supposed to be. A little bit of Dark side here and there isn't that bad, but a lot of it is, hence why the Jedi are needed and the Sith are not. As long as there is the Dark side, there will be Dark force users, like the Sith, so the Jedi and those like them are constantly needed.
Passion is NOT the jedi way, there code literally says, "there is no passion" and luke was perfectly balanced. He was able to form intimate relationships while still putting others before himself. He broke the code but then created a better code that doesnt forbid everything and let's you explore the force. So yes, the jedi are bad, but not Luke's jedi
it says "there is no passion", not compassion dumbass
@@goodmind4940 It was a misstype idiot. Instead of being an asshole, you could have told me I made a mistake or was incorrect. But no, you had to call me a dumbass just because you disagreed with me. Now I see why people call our fanbase toxic.
@@Firelord91021 he never said passion was jedi way, those words have two different meanings...
Luke didn't break the code at all. What people don't seem to understand is that the prequel era Jedi just took the code far to seriously. The bulk of the Orders history (in legends) allowed Jedi to be married and have families (There was a point in time where there were jedi lineages.). It was just that certain members in the order were firmly against it throughout it's history and occasionally came to high positions in the order. Then post Ruusan those people were primarily in those positions and that belief became common place. Luke didn't create anything, he just took followed the code the way the Jedi had for most of it's history.
@@uberness77 I understand your point, but we do some in some novels, he allowed his students to learn about the dark side, which no other jedi did.
Completely 100% fundamentally agree with everything stated in this video.
George Lucas intended balance to mean the extermination of the Sith, not equal parts light and dark. However, I believe the modification we can make to appease those who aren't satisfied with this explanation is to say that once the Sith are exterminated (as they are almost always incapable of reversion, with the exception of Vader and Darth Revan), the existing Jedi can take up the role of "Gray Jedi" and be more in tune with the Force as a whole, not just the Light side of it (like Qui-Gon Jinn). In other words, they cease being the _counter_ to the Sith, but become the living manipulators of the Force itself. Equal parts light AND dark, yet neither (much like Bendu or Mace Windu). This is how I would like to think of Star Wars immediately following the Return of the Jedi (excluding the Sequel trilogy) where Luke and Leia Skywalker become the "guardians" of the Force in the galaxy you might say.
The whole "Equal Numbers of Sith and Jedi's Balance the FORCE" is a stupid theory for me since the early 2000's/Prequels!
Why?
Kreia approves of your conclusion
@@Dragonage2ftw cause that is not how the force works imo
@@emberfist8347 prove it.
She was destroying the force's grip on destiny and restoring free will to the galaxy's inhabitants. I would compare Kreia to the greek god of legend Prometheus.
To some, a lifetime of servitude is worse than having freedom for a brief moment and then dying.
Also since you're on a Kreia obsession:
th-cam.com/video/-Z0S0Z8lUTg/w-d-xo.html watch and enjoy.
@@emberfist8347 That's why she sought out the exile in the prologue of Kotor 2. Her ability to cut herself off from the force was the experiment she needed to understand in order to go forward with her place to do the same to the entire galaxy in a ritual that i suspect was taught to her by Darth Revan himself.
It's rather ingenuous when you think about probables to such an undertaking.
Isn't balance the whole theme of the force? Equality in spirituality? Well, thought out, coherent videos, and impulsive, spur of the moment comments?
"Balance"
If you are rash, impulsive and aggressive, you would lose balance.
Try to step in one leg while throwing a temper tantrum.
To use a biblical quote, the prequal jedi flaw was they followed the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. They followed their code as strict and rigid laws instead of the ideals behind them.
Well I think a lot of people come down the Jedi for unfair reasons. The Jedi's laws exist for a reason. They are strict for a reason. But they are also self imposed, the Jedi choose this life.
I think a lot of people come down hard on the Jedi just because they don't like living their lives in a strict, highly self disciplined manner. Historically, you imposed strict and self discipline on your life for religion, but a lot of people are non-religious these days and see it as resetting their own personal freedom. So they don't understand why the Jedi live the way they do and believe them to be extreme.
And it's ok that they might not want to live that way but they shouldn't be so judgmental of other lives. The Jedi don't force their lifestyle on anyone and people shouldn't judge the Jedi for living that way. But a lot Jedi practices were inspired by religion and that extends to a lot of their strict requirements. I think people just need to accept that the Jedi choose to live a different life than the do and that strict rules is what they've chosen for themselves.
a lot of people argue that but if Anakin had followed the doctrine to the letter then the Empire would never have risen
@@bilalkhares9337 Anakin needed help. Above everything. The Jedi didn't give him that
We've already seen what happens when there are only two Jedi and only two Sith in the galaxy
Underrated comment
when?
@@goodmind4940
Good point.
In both old and new canon we see more than 2 Jedi at all times
There needs to be the same number of sith and Jedi in order for their to be balance at least in my opinion and belief
Honest Happy Hater There was only Luke alive during RoTJ
"Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu." For another topic id love to know more about force creatures that are or at least seemed to be balanced or grey force users. Balance of the force meant ridding the dark side from the force so it could be pure, at least that's how i understood it.
I originally saw the two Sith two Jedi equals balance used as a joke.
Though legends material had a couple of times tried to come toward the grey Jedi concept, which when done right is really a good concept with eastern inspiration.
Balance in the Force is Harmony. That pretty much sums it all up. A personal analogy I tell people when talking about this is that balance is akin to the "Perfect Steak". The perfect steak is not equal parts protein ("light") and salt/seasoning ("dark"). Nor is it one single recipe that everyone should follow, because everyone likes his/her steak a little different than the next fellow: some like it with a touch more salt or pepper; some like to finish it with rosemary and butter; others prefer their protein to be anything other than beef; still, others like to add spice and heat. Even the preference for sauces will be different. But the essence of a well-cooked steak is the same: juicy, tender, nicely seasoned and the flavors of the protein take center stage.
Sure, you can eat the steak unseasoned ("all light") but that would be bland and boring. But what is quite dangerous is to overwhelm the steak with salt and extra flavoring ("immersed in the dark side", like the Sith) because not only will you lose the essence of the steak ("the essence of the Force", i.e. Life), but it might make you sick, too.
I think it is because many people see the (current/prequel)Jedi as corrupt, flawed and or misguided.
not saying they aren't good.
True, I find it weird too, but a lot of people do see it that way. The way I see it the primary flaw of the prequel Jedi were their need to KILL the Sith. They should've tried to redeem them instead. Carry them down the right path. Truly destroy the darkness within their hearts by replacing it with light. Luckily, Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order held this belief so the way I see it the Jedi are fundamentally good.
Scrabdusan Productions Then the question becomes, do they want redemption in the first place?
The Sith believe that the Jedi are their mortal enemies, something to be overcome and destroyed. That belief’s been carried down countless generations, and it’s all most of them have known or need to know.
It’s certainly noble to make the attempt, but one day you’ll come across someone who doesn’t want to be saved.
@@christianfarren1179 That is always a possibility. All I'm saying is that I think it's cool that Luke's Jedi at least try to redeem the dark side. If it can't be saved then by all means destroy it.
@@scrabdusanproductions2104 Yeah. To bad that Disney made it non canon.
The Jedi in the prequels were out of balance because they were no longer serving the will of the Force but the will of government and the republic.
The dark side brings only imbalance, never balance because they never do the will of the Force. They only use the force for their own selfish gain.
I'm literally writing a script about this, started about three days ago, the subject is the nature of the force and how filoni and therefore disney continually get star wars wrong. I'm amazed you released this as I'm writing mine, that's crazy. I even talk about life, death and how the jedi serve the will of the force, keeping the balance, and the sith go against the will of the force, disrupting the balance. This is insane lol.
how Filoni gets it wrong?
@@goodmind4940 when Lucas explained to him about balance, Filing took it to mean 2=2 etc. Filoni, Hidalgo, theyve brought that into the Disney canon, which is why Disney is obsessed with equal numbers of sith and jedi, and freddie prinze jr went on a rant about 2 jedi and 2 sith makes balance. The entire premise of disneys star wars is flawed because one or two people misunderstood something.
@@emberfist8347 the thing is, balance was brought to the force by no sith remaining, but one jedi remaining. How is that balance if you go by a ratio? It isnt. Its balance because the jedi serve the force, the natural order of things. Balance isn't one sith, one jedi, balance is serving the will of the force, the natural order if you will.
@@emberfist8347 right. And there is a sister. The sister is happy with the things but the brother always wants more. Which is the same as the jedi serving the will of the force but the sith wanting more. If the balance of ratio isn't about how many people are on what side, then you're proving my point for me. Felonies never understood that balance wasn't about ratio and that transfered to disney.
@@InfinityNexusReviews you just proved why filoni gets it. He wrote the Mortis arc for crying out loud!!
3 years ago video but really like this. It crazy how many people are convinced you need to have equal amounts of sith and jedi, when it's not consistent at all with the films. And this video does a really good job of explaining the force's balance.
These kinds of ideas are what we need in the next canon pursuit! This would be awesome to see on-screen Jedis work through!
It makes no sense that equal Jedi and Sith would mean balance. The force existed long before either the Jedi or the Sith and it will exist long after. Both are just groups of beings who use the force in a particular way. The Jedi as they should have been are a group who follow the will of the force and seek to deal with with those who would cause imbalance in the force such as the Sith who use it selfishly and so will act in ways that will create imbalance. Whereas because the Jedi use the force selflessly, they should not be acting in a way that will cause imbalance. By destroying the Sith in Episode VI, Anakin created balance for a time because he killed the beings who were causing imbalance. The mere existence of Jedi or Sith does not affect balance but rather their actions do. Palpatine's mere existence did not threaton balance but rather his actions in creating conflict in the galaxy did.
You really hit the nail on the head with this one.
No other way I can say it
Vader’s sacrifice means nothing if the empire could return to easily. Damn frustrating
Vader sarcifised himself to save his son, not to destroye the empire.
@@Ismail-db1vj Exactly.
@@Ismail-db1vj True he did sacrifice himself for his son, but the sacrifice was about realizing that he still has good in him. That as Luke said before, the dark hadn't taken him fully.
Vantoi135 I’ll rephrase: emperors death is meaningless if the empire returns so easily.
Blake Tyson all that sounds interesting, hope to see it in some form someday. I enjoyed the thrawn trilogy, which books are you referencing?
Here's the thing about Balance in Star Wars. When it comes to force users, the Light side seeks to balance the force, to be at one with the force. Dark siders seek to tip the scales, and to use the force. This isn't the balance of Yin and Yang, positive and negative, it's the balance of life vs. death. The balance of life is hard, and easily disrupted, and too far in one direction causes catastrophe. Death on the other hand is easy, thus why the majority of the universe is lifeless hunks of rock suspended in space. The two sides seek to promote themselves, but one leads to ACTUAL balance, while the other leads to oblivion.
And the Jedi are not against death either. Death is a natural part of life, it is very much in line with the Light side. But what isn't in line is murder which the Sith promote. Death is natural, murder is unnatural. The Jedi won't try and stop death but they will try and stop murder and the Sith because those are unnatural.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Well what happens when you promote death? Murder, war, genocide, suicide, pollution, devastation. There is a difference in letting things happen naturally, and causing things to happen. For instance cancer is a natural disease, but your still gonna fight it, promoting life. And taking medicine to fight the cancer is unnatural, but hardly against the Jedi code. On the other hand intentionally giving someone cancer, that would be promoting death. Death is part of life yes, but Jedi are still in service to life, and trying to maintain and protect that life. The Sith seek power, worship power in fact, but in that quest to control the force for themselves, end up becoming servants to the darkside, and while negative emotions and dark desires fuel the darkside, the engine that uses that fuel is ultimately death. The servants just don't know that, because they have been enslaved by darkness.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Am I wrong on that?
@nooneofimportance For if life exist, death must exist.
There is still evil in the galaxy, even when the Sith are destroyed. Just look at the Imperial Warlords, crimelords, slavery, war, famine etc. So in my opinion the absence of sith does not balance everything, especially when there are dark jedi, night witches and whatever else around.
This balance of the Force is referred to in a prophecy which according to Yoda could have been misread. So it is up to anyone to believe in what he thinks is the right interpretation.
There are some crystals that are red without influence of a "dark side" user, but the influence of nature. Therefore, those red crystals are natural, but the "dark side" used by dark siders is born from selfishness, so it isn't natural. So in balance, there is natural light side and natural dark side, but not the "unnatural" dark side that sith lords used to create synthetic crystals for example. Also, i'm spanish, and i don't remember "artificial" in english. That is the word i wanted to use.
Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings said it best when tempted to carry the Ring:
"Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this ring for a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."
TH-cam messed up and told me this video was an hour and 14 minutes long. And my first reaction was: "Hell Yeah!! LETS GOOO!!"
I always understood the balance of the Force being the harmony between life and death - the balance of the “living force” and the “netherworld of the force.” The Jedi are selfless, and give their lives for the balance; completely selfless, accepting the cycle of life and death. The Sith try to upset this balance and transcend death; hence plagueis being the penultimate point of dark side force use. Palpatine tried to pursue his master down this path of living forever. Vader brought balance by destroying this transcendent evil
Balance of the Force is achieved when Kathleen Kennedy is no longer head of Lucasfilm.
I was watching of all thing COBRA KAI and was blown away by how beautifully the show plays this out. Sad that Star Wars forgot the roots of this idea.
There are (at least) 4 theological views of Balance/Harmony that we see in Star Wars: 1) For the Jedi, Light is the natural state of things and Darkness disrupts that natural state, so for them Balance occurs when the Light is dominant (i.e., "you were supposed to defeat the Sith ... and bring Balance to the Force"); 2) For the Sith, Darkness (chaos, conflict) is the natural state and the Light is a lie, so for them Balance is when the Dark is dominant; 3) For the Mortis Father, Balance between Light and Dark is a desirable end but must be actively maintained (which is why he needs Anakin); 4) For Bendu; he considers himself beyond such considerations as Jedi/Sith and Light/Dark (he's probably the closest we see to what most people think of as a Gray Jedi).
I don't know if its deliberate on the part of George/Dave/etc., but its fun for the whole myth that we see these different views without a complete definition. Gives us something to play with!
Force balance in Star Wars means the absence of the Sith. Dark side users twist the use of the Force for their own gain, which affects others and themselves negatively. That's bad. Jedi use the Force as intended and affect others and themselves positively. That's good. The absence of badness doesn't mean goodness is absent too. Walking a fine line between Jedi and Sith as a Grey Jedi won't create balance because it's impossible to use the dark side without harnessing selfishness and negativity, creating more negativity in the universe. Balance is something Jedi can strive for but something that will rarely be achieved or maintained for long, because good and evil will continue to exist, and people will always be able to choose between them.
The mental gymnastics people go to to fit a George Lucas quote into cannon
Intent implies design, but the force appears to be a force of nature.
U people watch only movies?
@@WoollyMittens but it has a will and therefore is self aware, so it can judge how people channel/use it.
@@leiferikson850
That's what Jedi believe, there is no deffinitive answer
I’m two years late but I wanna contribute. Something that fascinates me is that while the Jedi are indeed the balance, the Sith seek to break out of that cycle of control the Force has over all life. It’s interesting especially through the plagueis novel, as he tries to manipulate midichlorions to overpower the Force itself. While the Jedi are selfless, the Sith are the concept of individualism taken to the extreme, and it’s absolutely fascinating.
Very much enjoying this series on the Force, ESPECIALLY since you don't seem to be considering the sequel trilogy much at all in it. That's super helpful in staying on course and discussing the real heart of the matter. And, I agree with pretty much everything you say in this one...
I’ll make it short for you: the balance is not an equality between the Light and the Dark side. The Light side is the balance and the Dark side is the chaos that seeks to destroyed it.
There is always a Balance in the Chaos
I think one of the reasons this keeps coming up, is a lot of the deeper Star Wars fans are also fans of Jung.
One thing you'll get out of even a cursory glance at Jung is the idea of "incorporating the shadow" -- the idea that a good man is not a weak man, but a good man is a dangerous man who keeps that danger under control, for use when needed.
One of the larger conflicts within the EU was the conflict with the Vong. Some characters like Thrawn (and to some degree Palpatine) were supposed to be arguing that the galaxy needed to be unified to face such a threat. This sort "greying" of the black-and-white morality of the GFFA appealed to some, but not to others.
This happens in TCW, Yoda literally integrates his shadow into himself, but it still says dark side shouldn't control you, you just accept it as part of yourself
I’m enjoying this series of videos you’re doing on the Force, Thor. I am wondering if you would be willing to include in this series your understanding of the concept of balance as applied to the sequel trilogy? I.e., was balance thrown off again and had the chosen one prophecy been wrong? Or was the sequel trilogy about maintaining balance and staying vigilant against evil? Or is it something else? We all know the sequel trilogy is a giant cluster f*** but I’m wracking my brain trying to think of the best in-universe explanation for what balance means in this continuation of the Skywalker saga, especially considering the prophecy was already fulfilled and the main thread of Anakin’s redemption was complete by the end of Return of the Jedi. Help us Thor, you’re our only hope!
Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams both need to watch this video. Along with the Lucasfilm story group
This is an excerpt from a blog I wrote. fanfi.com/blog/?p=150
What is “balance” as to what the Jedi mean? Well “balance” means several things in the dictionary:
1: Stability produced by even distribution of weight on each side of the vertical axis.
2: Equality between the totals of the two sides of an account.
3: An aesthetically pleasing integration of elements.
4: Dealing with the fate or outcome about to be determined.
(The definition of Balance in the Force according to the prophecy.)
So what did the Jedi mean in the prophecy? An equal number of light sided and dark sided force users? No that would not be a good thing to the Jedi. Because there were a lot of them and only two Sith. It meant peace. It meant the removal of the poison of the dark side. How do we know that? Obi-Wan said “You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!” Destroying the Sith would remove the Darkness. Destroying the Sith would mean there would only be Light and Light is Life. It is good and peace. The force is the energy that binds all living things. That is not evil or dark in any way.
Too many people think the phrase "The Dark Side of the Force." means that there are 2 sides to the force. That is not true. The Dark Side is a corrupt way to access the Force. George called the dark side a poison. The Force is Life, Light, Good, etc. It is not Death, Dark, Evil, etc. The Emperor said, "Some call it unnatural." The dark side is not only corruption but also corrupts the one who uses it.
I think George said something along the lines of the Sith being what causes inbalance and the Jedi have to destroy the Sith to bring back balance because the Sith aim to use the force for their own personal gain as opposed to the Jedi who simply follow the will of the force and don't use the force as a weapon.
In Avatar, the Last Airbender, this balance is explained by uncle Iroh. There’s a conflict there as well, between the elements, represented by the nations. But the way the elements interact with each other is what brings balance and unbalance, and not about how many benders live or die. In SW, basically, it’s the same. Anakin understood, when he saw his son suffering, that he would lose everything. He was mentally unbalanced, with a lot of influence of his dark side. But, as Padmé pointed before passing, there was still good in him. Anakin resurfaces in a moment of light and defeated the emperor. He understood that, for him to save Luke and others, he would have to put himself before his son. So he sacrificed himself, bringing balance temporarily. But years after, there was another lack of balance. Then Rey and Ben restored the balance. Not only by force, but by emotion as well.
I agree with you 100%. A lot of Star Wars fans do seem to miss the point about what balance in the Force actually means. George Lucas said it best. Balance in the Force is when there are no Sith or powerful dark lords abusing the Force, and bending it to their will. The moment Vader killed Palpatine, and Anakin managed to let go of his anger, hate, and everything he feared to lose (including his life), the Force was immediately brought back into balance. All it takes is 1 powerful dark lord to unbalance the Force, and the corrupting influence most likely varies based on the power of the individual corrupting the Force through the dark side. The Force is a shared entity/energy. There is only as much Force energy as there is life in the universe whether it is sentient life, or not. The Force is not an endless source of energy. It's more like a well, or a stream. The Sith seek to drain the well for everything it's worth, and poison it. The "rule of two" Sith Order says it all from the perspective of the dark side. One Dark Lord embodies the power of the dark side, and one Sith apprentice craves that power. The less Sith there are, the more power the Sith have to draw upon. The light side is basically just the Force itself uncorrupted, and pure. There can be unlimited Jedi without bringing the Force out of balance because the Jedi strive to live in harmony with the Force as their ally.
Babylon 5 has a very good take on it.. too much Jedi can be stifling.if there is no great darkness to fight, smaller and ever smaller transgressions are targeted, until you end up in a dystopia of conformity.
I was thinking about the Vorlons and Shadows when Thor was speaking on this. The Vorlons ideals were about order and stability, while the Shadows were chaos and destruction. Thats akin to nature here on Earth with natural forest fires for example damaging everything around it; but when it blows out, new nature can build.
Tried explaining this to my friends and they say they like the idea of the Dark Side not being inherently evil because it is better when things are not black and white.
I understand where they come from, but I feel like even with the straightforwardness of the Dark Side being bad you can still have nuance. While Sith are using a corrupting power, not every single one is as evil as Palpatine, and there can be compelling characters who started down the Dark path for noble reasons. (And didn’t proceed to instantly slaughter younglings). Additionally, I think the Clone Wars and prequels trilogy have shown that just because the Jedi are on the correct side of the war, doesn’t mean that individual Jedi can’t be bad people or even despicable. The trap some people fall into is to have characters who can wield the Dark Side with zero consequences and can still continue down a completely good path.
TSDR Just because there is a definitively good power and a definitively bad one, doesn’t mean that characters who wield each have to be so black and white.
THIS is why you are my Star Wars soul bro man!
I think the reason why so many people think balance means an equal amount of dark and light is because the word balance inherently means an equal like distribution of weight and so that must be the same for the Star Wars galaxy. This is what the Kotor games are based off of and much of the old you Star Wars books go with this idea that you need both the dark and light side in order to reach balance. which is if not The majority of what people have consumed since the end of Star Wars episode three. I understand why George Lucas is trying to say with Star Wars and I enjoy it but I like the idea that neither of the Jedi or the Sith have the right idea it sounds more “real” if that can even be a thing in Star Wars. It also adds more layers to why people turn to the Darkside then just simple quick power grabs and adds more to the light side as it is a mastering of oneself in a more set in like manner where as the Darkside is and embracing of oneself.
The Balance can only be within Oneself.....trying to balance the Universe is a Narcissitic act of Futility.
Hence the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker the Chosen One
You have to be the most thorough and best star wars fan ever
Great video, Thor.
Say what you want about TFA, but I feel like JJ Abrams had the right perspective on balance. Lor San Tekka said there could be no balance without the Jedi. But sadly, this perspective seems to have been misunderstood in TLJ, where the focus seems to be in equal light and dark.
@@emberfist8347 I think I see what you mean. I just don't think the saga should have continued at all if the villains were not even force users. To me, that's what the main saga should always be about. Bringing dark siders back into the story seemingly undoes the balance Anakin achieved by killing Palpatine, but most other directors probably would've done the same thing. At least JJ seemed to understand that the balance Anakin brought about could only be restored by getting rid of all Darksiders once again.
@@emberfist8347 if that would have been the case, George Lucas ' sequel trilogy would have also ruined everything
People must be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them. Selflessly helping others may be interpreted as meddling in the lives of others. Certainly, some balance should be considered, lest people become dependent.
Yoda spends a lot of time, communing with the force, deciding to interfere or not.
As an example, Yoda attempts to restrain Lukes desire to help Han, Chewy and Leia at the Cloud City.
“Reckless” he said, “always, his mind on the future, never on where he was, and what he was doing!”
I'm sure you would feel meddled with if a Jedi saved you from getting hit by an MTT or shot by a STAP.
Jasom Jensai - Star Wars
So Lois Lane, carelessly, puts her life in mortal danger, because she knows, that Superman will always be there, to save her.
Bad life lesson = bad movie.
Blake Tyson
Lois Lanes’ guardian angel, such a waste of superman’s time. Fix her bottle, tuck her in.
A Jedi has no super speed or x-ray vision, they have little time to baby sit.
Blake Tyson
Bird dogging bad guys. A phone call, would work better. I’m fairly certain, superman’s calendar is full.
I enjoy your channel!
Yodas epsidoes in the clone wars perfectly capture how its supposed to be. The light and dark exist in all of us. Yoda accepted that his darkness is a part of him, that there is no getting rid of it but that all of that is okay. Through trainging and being responsible he controls his darkness and doesnt let it control him or indulge in it. Thats the balance of the force for individuals and on a larger scale.
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
The only thing I disagree with this is that you said "The Jedi appreciate the rule of two makes their job easier".
Imagine trying to spot two good friends in a crowded bar. Now try finding and correctly identifying Two Sith lords within an entire galaxy.
he was joking lol
Its not that what star wars says is balance is misunderstood .Its that its disliked as an idea .The problem is its to simple of a philosophy for real world morality . That the light side way of doing things is always correct. I'm reminded of what GRR martin said "
"That if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs?"
Replace the word Aragon with Jedi and it still fits. Its why Revan and Keira are some of my favorite characters.
SW fans hate tax policies and any politics, wtf you're talking about? I thought people wanted simple black and white fairy tale?
Refusing to believe in universal good is what Star Wars warns us never to do. Believe in good. Evil will always exist, that doesn't mean we have to manifest it just because the world is cruel.
The 'balance' was attained at the end of Return of the Jedi by severing the chain of Sith and Jedi dogma. The future was free for Luke to construct a new Jedi path that incorporated a holistic approach to emotions. The Jedi were hamstrung by their denial of emotion, and that allowed the Sith to attain complete control.
@@emberfist8347 Blake my man, you continuously read my mind. I feel like we agree on pretty much everything Star Wars, especially things that matter most like the nature of the Force and Jedi.
Can't wait to hear what you think of Revan, the Jedi I'd argue was in balance in the end while wielding the Dark Sude as a tool or mask when needed.
Same. He's pretty much the only one to truly master both the light and dark, using both in balance and harmony. He had a better understanding of the force than the near enough all of characters in the universe.
I think Revan was misguided in his vanity thinking that the only way to counter the sith empire was to control the galaxy and make it something that is only meant for war and what he was not doing was trusting in the force.
That is what he learned after losing his memories and lead him to trusting in the force that it would bring someone to defeat the sith emperor, the Hero of Tython.
I think balance in the force means no conflict, when maul said the force was out of balance savage replied with “yes there is conflict, the clone war” so the prophecy about anakin destroying the sith and bringing balance probably meant anakin killing palpatine and ending war and considering he was the key to ending all 3 wars and a main contributor to killing palpatine twice then I guess that’s correct
If to achieve balance there should be no conflict how can we get SW movies???
I LOVE those kind of videos !!
I think priority one for the old Jedi was researching the mysteries of the force. Rebublic and people in it and being the police of the galaxy was secondary.
Thor says "Now..." me grabs popcorn
but... but... but... Freddy Prince Jr. said the fans don't understand the force as well as he does and 2 Sith, 2 Jedi was balance.
The idea of balance comes from keeping humanity from destroying itself or maintaining what it's meant to represent. Humanity, balance, harmony or whatever is maintained so life wouldn't be simply suffering. Do animals only suffer though, since they are free from the duty of maintaining anything. They do and they don't, they certainly fear, what actually is the sole purpose of mankind, to eliminate the need of fear.
I read the Jedi's own imbalance as a result of their attempt to supress their emotions/darkness which is linked to lack of empathy/compassion. Especially with Yoda's arc in Clone Wars. Perhaps this is where people get confused about balance because it might seem like you're supposed to embrace your darkness but really I think that Yoda learns that he cannot overcome what he does not acknowledge and so then his darkness has control of him because he choses to ignore it. Stretch that out to politics and war so that it becomes the Jedi's failure to acknowledge and confront those problems that allows an imbalance in the galaxy and force.
The Jedi needing the Sith reminds me of a line from the Weird Al Yankovic song "Yoda":
"Luke, I know Darth Vader really has you annoyed, but remember if you kill him them you'll be unemployed"
lol always made me laugh as a kid
Balance is inside , not just outside it is balance within yourself and to be a good person, when you act with selfishness, and become a selfish person you become evil wanting more and more,
When you are selfless you a re a good person working for the betterment of others and when you are selfless you create happiness
Rewatch the Mortis Arc and it all makes sense. Balance is when the Dark side and the Light aren't in conflict. Unfortunately, the nature of the Dark Side is evil, always stirring up conflict with the light, "Do not hate him father. It is his nature." Conflict must exist, whether the light want's it to or not. Also, the Father showed us that no one can be perfectly in the middle, "grey." If one man tries to control that much opposing power the two sides will at one point be forced to destroy each other. That's why Anakin destroying the Sith creates balance because now there are no force users on the dark side who are trying to battle and destroy the light.
The Bendu in Star Wars Rebels also illustrates this well. Filoni again puts forward the idea of a force wielder in the middle. He is shown as wise in early episodes but in the end it is shown that the Bendu is still very arrogant and not willing to defend his planet or understand Kanan's selfless act, trying to save his friends and the galaxy from "overwhelming evil". He just sees the conflict between light and dark as petty, ignoring the long-term damage the dark will bring.
The issue is there will always at every moment in time be Dark Side users somewhere in the cosmos. If balance meant destroying all dark side users for the rest of time, then balance is not possible to achieve as they will always exist until no sapient life exists anymore. If its true that balance in the Force means no dark side users anywhere then the only time the Force was ever in balance was before sapient life existed in the cosmos.
the Father wears gray clothes, controls both his son and his daughter, and talks about balance, which leads many to believe that he represents the gray Jedi. however, if you pay attention to his words and actions, he never demonstrates any qualities of the dark side. also, his eyes are never yellow.
@@emberfist8347 I'm talking about other Dark Side Force factions that no doubt occupy other galaxies. For all the Jedi knew, there were other ones out there in the cosmos with greater reach and influence then the Sith disrupting balance and as big of or bigger scale. They wouldn't know cos they'd never reach those galaxies to find out. Ultimately its irrelevant cos the story is centered in the SW main galaxy. But if balance was the end of all Dark side users ever for the rest of time then forget about balance cos its never happening.
@@emberfist8347 that's what I am saying his design makes him seem equal light and dark, but his words and actions line up with the light side far more than the dark side. he keeps his children imprisoned on Mortis not for their sake, but for the galaxies sake. the father tells Anakin, "you cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children, and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe." this and many other moments reveal that he is selfless. he does what he hates to save the galaxy.
While I still do feel balance requires the Jedi to be more open to the dark side, this doesn't, and never did, mean they had to embrace it, simply not fear it the way they do. Much like how in order to curtail violence one first shouldn't fear it, but accept there are in fact times and places for it, so too for there to be balance the light must allow the dark to exist in it's proper times, and places. Hell look at how Qui-gon reacted to Anakin, or the sith vs how the order did, he took steps to curtail thing, but he didn't, at least from what I'm aware of, act out of a fear of it, like wise (original)Luke didn't defeat Palpatine by fighting him, but by reaching out to his fallen father, and likewise one of the least destructive Sith, at least in legends, Darth Vectivus, was one that found and stayed in his time and place. So yeah the problem lay not with the ideals, but with the practice, for both the Jedi, and the Sith, and balance isn't a numbers game.
The Jedi don't fear the dark side, they understand that it is a corrupting force. It is shown how uncontrol able the dark side is when Anakin chokes the woman he loves. The dark side is like a drug, the more you use it, the more it corrupts you until one day you wake up to find yours eating your own children. That's why the gray Jedi do not exist because gray Jedi are just Jedi following the path to the dark side. One of the biggest problems with the EU is a lot of writers romanticize the dark side, this is nihilism which is one of the reason why Lucas never fully excepted the EU.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 ah but even if we use the drug metaphor there would be times and places for it, just as there is for morphine and and most, if not all, drugs, and I'd argue the Jedi's response to it was still motivated by fear, or greed, much like many drug programs in the war on drugs are
Though I'd also argue the reason the EU authors "romanticized" the dark side was in an attempt to reconcile the inconsistencies caused by the grafting of the western ideals of good and evil from the hero's tale format of the trilogy, with the eastern dharmic philosophies that served as the inspiration for the force
@@James-ep2bx But the biggest problem with your theory is that it contradicts everything Lucas has been saying and the movies themselves for decades. The desire for Gray Jedi is nothing more than fan wish fulfillment that was sparked by The Knights of the Old Republic video game. After that game came out many fans became retarded with the contradictory nihilism of their own power fantasies. It's fans wanting to have their dark side powers without the consequences that come with it. It's Luke Skywalker temporarily turning to the dark side to defeat the clone of the Emperor....it's dumb and contradicts the growth of his character. Fear greed, you accuse the Jedi of this, while they are the ones resisting the fear and greed, and the temptations of the dark side. Respectfully, you don't know what you are talking about. You think the dark side is cool and you want to legitimize it. It is what it is....a corrupting force, that is the very message of the films. And again one of the reason why Lucas never acknowledged the EU was because many writers tried to legitimize the dark side. The fact is Star Wars was a mess long before Disney got their hands on it...but back then fans tried to clean it up and created the canon that Disney was quick to reject. It's a simple concept, you have a choice of being good or evil and its a struggle to follow the right path. Most criminals do not believe they are evil people, even though they do evil things, and they make excuses to legitimize why they do evil. Most killers don't start out wanting to be killers....no, they build themselves up toward it. Also we know physiologically once you start killing, you want to do it again. That is way I used the drug metaphor. People aren't born evil, they are slowly corrupted toward it.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 please read what _I_ typed not what you _think_ I type based on arguments seen from others, and note nowhere have I advocated for "gray Jedi" or treating the darkside as anything other then dangerous, and my argument isn't based on the EU, but on the movie's, interviews, and my own knowledge, as the 1. Lucas himself acknowledged that starwars followed the hero's tale architecture, part of that architecture is good vs evil, but 2. one look at the philosophies mentioned around the nature of the force even in episode 4 would clearly place it in the dharmic/animistic category with a holistic cosmology, which is at odds with the good vs evil of the hero's tale, especially when the "evil" analog is a cosmic force, and the simplest way to solve this inconsistencies is to decouple evil from said cosmic force, which in turn leads to one of two categories of solutions: a) the route the EU was fond of: the problem laying not in the cosmic force, but in the philosophies, which in turn would mean there could exist philosophies that incorporates it in a less distructive manner, and/or b) those like mine that see it as something dangerous, but necessary, which would mean there'd be circumstances where it was needed.
Also I only accuse the Jedi of fear, because based on their actions in the movies, and to a lesser extent the clone wars series, it's the most charitable interpretation, with greed, lust for power, or stupidity being the less charitable options
@@James-ep2bx I agree that you have not advocated toward the Gray Jedi, but you are leaning in that direction. I bring it up because I've been in so many arguments with people who have advocated for their existence. Joseph Campbell's The Heroes Journeys deals with the patterns and archetypes of stories cross cultures and history. Campbell was fascinated with Lucas's use of these archetypes in the original trilogy. What we are arguing about is based on what the Jedi are suppose to be according to Lucas, compared to the dogmatic corrupt society that they had become in the prequels. So in fact you are right, in the prequels the Jedi are concerned with losing the power which the Republic had given them....hell, they even threw Ashoka under the bus for it. Qui-Jon was a pure Jedi, he was what the Jedi were meant to be, he listened to the Whill of the force and did not desire power, he did what he "must." And that didn't involve being open to the dark side, but "mindful" of it. In our arguments we are both right, but that is only because in the prequels we are shown that the Jedi are no longer who they are meant to be....their code was wrong, Lucas wrote it to be wrong...which is why their influence with the force was diminishing. They were not who they were meant to be, I argue for the Jedi who are who they are meant to be. See, in reality the Jedi were doing exactly what you suggested, they were leaving themselves open to the temptations of the dark side with their greed, with their lust for power....and yes, fear. And that was one of the best aspects about the prequels and The Clone Wars series...the Jedi were hypocrites, which is why Anakin came to believe that they are evil. So our arguments are coming from two different perspective, so I was wrong when I said that you don't know what you are talking about, it's clear that you do, more a miss understanding on my part. When you debate Star Wars as much as I have, you see a pattern of people falling into different camps, and I wrongfully placed you in the Gray Jedi camp. It's nice to be wrong from time to time.
This reminds me of a forgotten realms book. "Elfshadow"
In it, a half elf assassin worked for the organisation called 'the Harpers' and every time they killed a bad guy, a member of the harpers would die shortly after. Not to spoiler the story, but someone there believed in balance so much, that they were aranging for a good guy to die as every bad guy did. Balance with a capital B lol.
I think balance is good, but not to that extent lol. Nature, and the Force, knows it's own balance I think.
The Force has life and death, begining and end (Daughter and Son), The dark side takes from life and rejects death serving itself only by taking from the force, A middle or Bendu is a mistaken belief that the force will work everything out, it is the rejection of responsibility to do what's best that comes with any ability that is given
You should make a video about the midi-chlorians, and help undo the misconception that they would be the force itself, instead of the channel through which the force comunicates its will to the living beings
Balance has always been the light being dominant. The Light is the natural state of the force while the dark side is...Well, it's dark side. Obviously the dark side will always exist. It's the Sith that need to be destroyed because they use it to create galactic level turmoil. But then you have factions like the Nightsisters, who while definitively evil also more or less stick (When they were alive) to Dathomir, hence why we never saw (as far as I know) a Jedi crusade against them, or similar factions.
ironically we see Sith crusade against them
Another great video. I'm excited for the next one already!
Perhaps there are valuable lessons to be learned by walking the path of the dark side as well as the light side. Lessons that broaden our perspective of the universe, grant us a glimpse at the wholeness of ones being and facing our fears directly.
This is Darth Bullsith of the Galactic Notification Empire! All wings, report in!
Bullsith, standing by!
I find it a bit weird that the prophecy says that the chosen one is said to bring balance to the force but no where does it say that the chosen one will restore balance permanently and it doesn't say anything about the end of the dark side itself... It's kinda confusing.
It would have been explained in George's sequels
@@emberfist8347 Really? Because I looked it up myself on Wookiepedia and it literally says it didn't predicted the end to the dark side itself and the the balance will be restored but no permanently, it's strange.
Taking care of your friends, family, community is NOT "self-LESS"! It is very much IN SERVICE of your deepest, deepest interests!
Grasping obsessively after any shining bauble that comes your way, wanting to have you cake and eat it too, is actually true selflessness, because you're completely letting outside influences determine your state of mind and your actions.
Striving to fully actualize yourself does NOT require "balancing selflessness and selfishness", somehow! To be truly self-actualized means understanding that everything is part of a larger whole, and "self" is ALWAYS _interdependent_ with the "world around us". It's not an either-or proposition, it never was. When people say things like "you have to be a little selfish sometimes!" that is an inaccurate description of an underlying truth: You should strive to be completely selfish ALL of the time, as long as you understand that "self" actually, potentially includes the entire effing universe! The degree to which you're able to actualize your true self - the whole - depends on the degree of your understanding of how everything is connected with everything else. Since connection is literally what the Force IS, pure and simple - it connects everything, directly, on a visceral level, i.e. you can "feel" the truth of things in your bones - the force-sensitive can achieve a higher degree of awareness more easily than other people. And the very best of them may seem completely transcendent to our normal, everyday understanding of our place in the universe. When Obiwan gives up his life in ANH, we CALL it "selfless", but it's not! He simply has a better understanding of how everything is connected for the good, and he knows that his death is not the end of his striving but a necessary part of it!
That's why trying to describe the force/light/dark/good/evil in terms of selfless vs selfish is incoherent at best and misleading at worst! The OT was open to this interpretation whereas the prequels were not. This is why the OT resonated so much more for people than the prequels did. The prequels did try to contextualize morality in the way you outlined, as selflessness vs selfishness, that's why the Jedi in the prequels look like pricks and Vader was reduced to spoiled brat. Everything else is rationalization.
@@emberfist8347 Why, thank you for your deeply thoughtful contribution!
To me, balance is like the concepts of utopia or perfection. Something we can strive for, but can never truly achieve.
Despite their tendency towards ultimate power or galactic domination, the Sith are correct in that chaos, not peace, is the natural order of things.
What matters is how you respond to it, accept and take advantage of it (Sith) or resist it and try to make something better from it (Jedi).
And this is where I struggle with the Jedi/Sith divide.
While the Jedi’s goals have usually been noble/well-meaning, they can become too narrow in how they define balance or unwilling to adapt to the times they’re in and the threats that arise.
By contrast, the Sith are constantly evolving, adapting to whatever time period they’re in, finding new ways to accumulate power and influence and outmaneuver their enemies, which has led to the majority of their victories against the Jedi.
So sadly, if I’m forced to choose, the Sith are more in line with my personal philosophy.
As you have said accept things as they are, but try to make something better for it is in a sense the Jedi way. That's an adaption? The narrow view is part of the things that fall under lost there way, so I don't necessarily see your point.
Also why would caos be the natural order?
H F H F I see chaos as the the natural order because you have everyone everywhere trying to claim a piece of the world (materially or ideologically) for themselves, usually at the expense of others.
In an ideal universe, everyone would work together to make sure that everyone got their fair share. But that’s the thing, some people are always going to want more than their fair share, hence chaos.
As for the Jedi, you’re right in that broadening their view of balance is an adaptation. It’s necessary if they want to be effective in maintaining balance after all.
My issue with them is that at a certain point, they become so secure in their position, so convinced the way they’re doing things is right, that they know best, that they can’t see or address the problems that are right in front of them.
I’m not questioning their adherence to balance. I’m questioning how far they’re willing to go in service of that goal.
I agree, Christian.
With the Force involved you can't balance negative emotions. You can feel them sure, we see Jedi feel anger all the time. From Obi-Wan after Maul kills Qui-Gon to Yoda going after Sidious, to Luke beating on Vader for threatening Leia. But you when let those emotions CONTROL you, CONSUME you? Fear, anger, hate? Then you commit genocide against a people who cared for you for 13 years, you strangle your wife, take your sons hand, destroy your daughters planet. There's no happy in the Dark Side. The only one who even seems happy is Sidious but he's literally the Devil. The embodiment of evil. A clear outlier. Everyone else? Heck Vader is just waiting for something to kill him until Luke comes along. Filoni says it himself. 'Vader is miserable. That's the trap of the Dark Side. It doesn't make you happy.' Using Force lightning and murder people only 50% of the time doesn't make you balanced. It just means you're a murder and evil at least 50% of the time.
And to me, it's clear in the films the Force is balanced at the end of ROTJ, when the Sith are gone and Luke stands ready to bring back the Jedi. The heroes are happy and get happy victory dance number. In ROTS everything is melancholy, dark, depressing with only baby Luke and Leia seen with a bit of light around them. Because they are the hope that we know will bring about the victory in the OT. We don't even get a mention of the light side ever in the films. Luke asks 'how will I know the bad from the good?' once in TESB but that's it. Everywhere else it's just the Force and the Dark Side. No light. Also, Lucas in 'making of the Revenge of the Sith' talks about how Anakin defies his destiny when attacking Windu instead of Sidious. His destiny was to bring about balance through the destruction of the Sith. But he chose not to and the whole of the galaxy paid for it for another 20 + years.
With all of that I think it's pretty clear why the Sith are a corruption that must be gone for there to be balance. The 2 and 2 thing is just something easy our brains like to work with. Especially because as you say we're told to share and make things equal for everyone. But when you see the Sith bringing all this genocide, evil and suffering we don't need an equal amount of that whether it's fiction or real life. Honestly the less we get of that, the far more beautiful our world would be.
Master SkyWalker, I Believe A Thousand Generations = 40,000 Years. A Generation Being 40 Years.
May The Force Be With Us All!