@@phreakazoith2237 That or GW had the Primaris Marines already in the works and needed some information to come out to later explain things down the line. Where they dropped the ball is that they forgot about the Raptor Project by the time they introduced the the Primaris Marines.
@@phreakazoith2237 I read about the special Raven Guard before it was called The Raptor Project in an old issue of White Dwarf over 10 years ago. A short story have Space Wolves witness the savagry of them and understanding the situation because of their own Wulfen curse.
I just saw a new version of orkz with 'Kleva Boyz' with raven motifs and Ork tech power armour hurtling towards the heretics on bikes and jet packs and the choas marines looking at each other and just asking 'Did these used to be Raven Guard?"
Apollon, Primarch of the 22nd Especially if said Engine of Woes contains a Primarch whom witnessed his red brother accidentally - ACCIDENTALLY- killed Vulcan!!
Brother save me, Dorn has me locked up on Terra Edit: I do need to re-read that part of the book to make sure but we know omegon lives cos dorn can produce a body where girly man can't and it was a small 1 line text from second edition (not much has survived that edition), can't use that brotherly signal dying as a way to tell ether as every primarch has had an alpharius stand in at one point without them knowing.
@@shahizani923 depends if like me you dont count 8th in witch case yeah you dont have much else to do, if u are including 8th ed then you have both the question on if the primarus are heresy considering there creation was done withough consulting the emperor, if you think girlyman is being controlled by the knife ear witch. There is the hole warp rift and brining it back to the primarus.... U checked there gene seed? How about the grey knight gene seed, you will find there are a few things that may stand out about them. Corax at least had direct permission from the emperor and the gene samples but girly man didnt, not did the magos who created these tainted seed beings. Got a lot of work my inquisitive one
Imagine what we'd get if Belisarius Cawl got his hands on Raptor gene seed and built the Primaris around it. You'd probably get a more powerful and more physically intimidating Space Marine.
@@briangilgan Actually what if Cawl just found one of those Laboratories and the Primaris are just project raven (which was unfinished ) finished in an Inferior way by cawl over the last 10k years.
Who could truly say? Though more seriously, they were noted for having these large Astartes even before the HH but that doesn't mean they didn't use Raptors to create fake Primarchs.
That's because of their late development by the emperor. Perfectly stable and efficient geneseed without almost any flaws. The alpha marines were kind of the space marines 1.5 without further upgrades while the raptors would have been a much larger step up from the typical space marine. Alphas were just a bit larger and had more similarities with their primarchs than other legions which made the primarch-to-marine mindswap much more believable in appearance. It's a shame they didn't used the raptor geneseed to push chaos. Raptor vs primaris would have been fun.
*How the Alpha Legion troops were discovered* Alpha Legion Marine: Hello fellow Raven Guard I would like to see the gene seed incubation chamber Raven Guard Marine: Oh Sure, wait a goddamn minute *gets tape measure and checks height* THIS GUYS A TRAITOR Alpha Legion Marine: *goes on radio* Guys we’ve been outsmarted do it now.
Considering how fast the Raptors grew and the required age of implantation, does this mean the Raven Guard had a bunch of nine foot tall 10 year olds with automatic grenade launchers running around battlefields?
There were also "false astartes" who could be given some enhancements. They wouldn't be compatible with the full suite of astartes surgeries, but they could get enough to almost fit in.
I think the statement at the end of this video "we will never know" is premature. Remember the alpha Legion stole the technology and knowledge to create the Raptor Marines. That means that technology and knowledge is still out there probably in a single package somewhere.
@@alexanderm8880 Maybe they are massively numerous. The alpha Legion seems to show up in a lot of different theaters. All across the Galaxy they keep showing up in an instant. It's almost as if they have chapters of Marines stationed in every corner of the Galaxy waiting to move out at an instant's notice.
@Alexander M How do we not know? They are a multi headed hydra. Every where and no where. Omagon would not have shared it. They will be a. 3rd front. Legion actually sized. Numerous great companies?? Idk. I feel. The alphas playing the long game. They distrust chaos absolutely. Maybe they come Back when e wakes up and become welcome back. New warriors for multi fleet tyranids w chaos attacking as well... gotta have bodies... redemption thru sacrifice? Bleed to make up w white scars?? Would be compelling to say the least....
I think the primaris are slightly more super than these super-duper marines. Normal supersoldiers (marines) are already pretty good, obviously. The raptors sound slightly more super, whereas the primaris sound ultra-super (Warhammer power-scaling is utterly broken and really stupid)
at least the raptor project would have circumvented one issue about Primaris: just one legion filling up its ranks by a speedy and creative method is not a big deal. Raptors were Raven among Raven and learnt their ways from start. It was not like: Yo honorable chapter with long history and unique traditions, here are your new superior bros...
Been watching a lot of your 40k lore videos never really was a fan of this franchise but honestly learning more about it it might be another fandom\community to add to my collection
Nice to see a big 40k channel tackling this topic. Everyone blows Cawl's cyber-dong for being so smart while Corvus did what he did more than 10 millenia earlier and better.
I wonder if Belisarius Cawl got the idea to create Primaris Marines from this experiment? Imagine these guys succeeded and would become Proto-Primaris Marines
That's what I was thinking... What if Cawl just found this tech, pinched it, and is passing it off as his own work? It wouldn't save the character overall, but it would at least add a bit of believe-ability to the current Primaris background.
The other, more interesting possibility is that the Primaris Marines are derived from the pure geneseed recovered by the alpha legion, which could imply that somehow the Primaris Marines and/or Cawl are potentially an alpha legion asset.
Oh, I do love the Raptors! I really wished that FW had released a unit of them, but then we could well use the Word Bearer Gal Vorbak models and Blade-Slaves. Got some of those, so I might well have to go and try this now! Great video.
Damn, I’m so early on this video that I have no idea what he’s taking about? You’re telling me that Horus turns traitor?? You’re insane, he’s the damn War Master!
The first squad founded the Raptors chapter, afaik. Without the full technology, the only benefits that they have is a bit more stable geneseed, sharpened eyesight, and better reactions.
@@p_serdiuk it seems that you have forgotten about the Demon blood mixture that Alpharius put in the fake Raptor project. The post heresy Raptor chapter may have been just created by Corax so that the Imperium wont forget the sacrifices of those who volunteered for the Raptor treatment.
@@jamescawl6904 The Raptors (chapter) were created from initiates that were already in the space marine pipeline at the time of Istvan. They were basically the first marines to come out of training post Massacre, and then utilized as the core of the new Raptors Chapter.
@@maliceharding4668 make more sense then Magnus winning even as loyalist his chapter was the smallest as by the time he was found most of their marines had become chaos spawn. the first ritual that stopped that was tied to Magnus himself it's why they had to us the rubric when he became a demon prince . if he fell during the heresy his legion die with him.Russ just going with his originally order to take Magnus to the emperor instead make more sense given the space wolf numbers advantage and the fact it indicated that they have destroy a legion before
Hm. This was rather interesting. I never knew there was a Raptor Project. When i read the title of this video i was thinking.. Was the Emperor planing to make what later became the Raptors of the Chaos Space Marines. The ones with claws and flight capabilities.
@Deathcoldan Magnus is inherently a good guy. Its fuckin Horus's fault, but Horus wouldnt have fell to chaos if it weren't for Lorgar who wouldnt have fallen if it weren't for Kor Phareon and Erebus.
That leaves the loose end of the alpha Legion possessing the tech and never making use of it... But why didn't corax just make the trip back to the lab to get the tech again? Surely he didn't just empty a whole lab by himself.
almost all technology pertaining to geneseed manipulation was created many years earlier and around that time machines built more intricate machines. humanity simply didnt understand how to make certain things, more or less how to recreate something that probably didnt even have blueprints
Moreover, he let them fight for as long as they could be commanded and be effective on the battlefield. He was very fatherly with them, like any primarch should have been to his sons. He felt absolutely crushing guilt over the failure of the raptor project, deciding to take it upon himself alone to face the consequences of his perceived failure
If it succeeded: They would have still spent all their time on their homeworld because their Primarch was still a reclusive nutcase and still had little to no impact on the remainder of the Heresy.
Meester Writer Kinda, he did a lot of sabotage and behind the scenes work, Saved Russ and the remainder of the Space Wolves on Yarant, so he did some things.
@@mrwri Yes, because they had been reduced to less than 10% of their prior combat strength. If they had been able to replenish this, they might have had more of an impact. Corax didn't stay out of the conflict entirely, he just worked with what he had, which wasn't much.
@@mrwri The Raptor project was to help in repleneshing the Loyalist numbers unfortunately Alpharius had to steal the plan in order to continue the story.
It would have mattered little during the heresy. Their fleet was almost completely destroyed. They didn't have the capacity to quickly make massive amounts of power armour with Mars gone. The aftermath, however, that's where they would have made a real impact.
@@rippspeck It's more a joke, because they battled in simulations. Corax won the first three but couldn't beat him after the fourth, after Rowboat adapted and learned too much.
It'd make more sense than that Somehow someone with less resources, and access managed to not only recreate big E's work but also improve upon it in less time than E himself did so
@@Voron_Aggrav Cawl is one of the most powerful men in the imperium and can basically get his hands on whatever he wants, so your first statement is wrong. He also was working with a Primarch on it, had helped Big E personally with the original space marine project. And most importantly, had parts of the documentation that said how to create a Primarch. And even with all of that combined it took him 10,000 years to make what could be considered a worse Custodian. There are plenty of reasons to complain when it comes to Primaris, but Cawl making them, is not one.
I think that it'd be easier to say the primaris are the successors to the raptors making it easier to understand how belesarious got to where he was at when gulliman returned. Hey buddy go figure out what's wrong with the raven guard's raptors and see if you can purge the taint. Perhaps an early raptor that survived the initial procedure was used as a template of sorts or maybe one of the many conflicts with alpha legionnaires lead to rediscoveries of tech that were used in the raptor project. The raptors could have also just served as an example that the current marines can be improved in various ways outlined in the accounts of the raptors victories setting a mental goal to build and research towards.
Corvus Corax, 40K Nightwing. | 3:25 - Blame Lorgar! Purge his filth! | 7:06 - (monotone) All hail the Ultrasmurfs. | What if Konrad Curze was found as he was crawling out of that hole in Nostramo?
considering how strong and fast the raptors could be produced I think there had to be a drastic downside. maybe they only have an average lifespan than the hundreds to thousand years of a space marine. or maybe their gene-seed can't be passed down like a normal marine.
I think the Loyalists would have ended up stopping the Traitors in their tracks or at least drawn out the Heresy. It would have ended up as attrition that the Traitor Legions might have lost but Daemons might have ended up as a slight equalizer.
Depending on how long the heresy got drawn out, the grey knights could have potentially been ready, putting any hope of daemonic assistance out the window
Not a huge Corax fan, BUT do you think this could of helped other legions with their own inherit mutations? I mean could it help the blood angels or space wolfs?
what happened to the first non-tainted batch of raptors? their geneseed was not used to create new astartes? They were few, but there should be some "descendentes" today, right?
Interesting because Corax IS confirmed Alive & Well (possibly now a non chaotic Daemon Prince a la Legion of the Damned, Saints etc). Literally Trolling The Word Bearers even in the “safety” of the eye of terror.
The main question though, is even if the experiment worked, would Corvus Corax be able to make enough Raptors fast enough to make a difference in the Heresy
several thousand raven guard raptors were made "pure" before the alpha legion tampering. the first chapters of raptors were something between a primaris and a firstborn. i wonder if any survived the horus heresy and went on to form chapters during the scouring.
i am not a great fan of primaris but do we have Info about their project Path (Where their were started Dna wise How their were modified ect) could Belisarius Cawl or Guilliman have used Raptor Dna at the base of the primaris and just added 3 New/rework emperor Prototype implant. Having people make a better version of Emperor work sound always false to me but people rediscover and awkwardly put together his work sound more realistic. (Sorry for the phrasing and other not my language)
If he had given the project to the Salamanders and Iron Hands there could have been two additional full strength legions to protect Terra. The Houus Heresy May have turned out very differently.
Perhaps the primaris project is already based on the raptors or at least belisarius used it as a guide or prior research in order to progress so darn fast on new astartes
In the audio drama "The Geld" an Alpha Legion Apothecary is seen to seemingly be using the tech, though his creations were misshapen and monstrous. So whether they can use it properly is another matter entirely.
Corax wouldn't have sent his legion to reinforce terra, that's not his way. Corax would have attacked Horus's Rear and slow and cut off supply lines. In siege war it's attrition that wins the day and if you can keep the sieging force from resupplying it's more likely the defenders will win the day. It could cause Horus to split his force to keep Corax off his ass taking off pressure from terra allowing the Ultramarines enough time to get to terra and reinforce the defense. Once the Ultramarines show up it's over for horus, so he might just ignore Corax and push harder against terra causing him to be reckless and desperate wasting a lot of his strength in mistakes maybe even enough to allow Corax to attack his force directly at the same time terra goes for an all out offensive catching horus in a pincer. I'm not sure how stupid horus is though, with all the chaos in him it can make him prone to more emotional thinking which leads to these kind of tactical mistakes. He'd either push harder, split his forces, delay the siege all together though that would allow the Ultramarines to reinforce terra so it will be a harder nut to crack but that would keep his rear less exposed. >_< so many variables. I'd split my forces and attack Deliverance with a small but hard force just to keep the raven guard pend down so they can't harass my rear to effectively and push hard into terra and hopefully do the deed before the raven guard mops up the attacking force and goes after my rear or before the ultramarines show up and beat my ass from terra to the eye. either way though it's more of a Pyrrhic victory because even if the big E is sacked Horus wouldn't have the numbers to hold terra and with the losses from the siege and a full strength raven guard proto-primaris legion and the Ultramarines hellz nah horus would have to retreat. In short humanity would have been fucked but so would horus.
im sure it says in deliverance lost that the new raptors marines was given the new armour MK VI corvus pattern... so they cant have been bigger then the other raven guards... they might be stronger and faster but not bigger because they would not fit the armour then
Having the Raven Guard at full strength could have challenged the Night Lords and Freeded up the Dark Angels allowing for two more Loyalists Legions to defend Terra, if they could reach it.
Hot take: The alpha legion leaked a Raptor procedure piecemeal to the mechanicus with a hidden flaw that they could exploit whenever they want (Ala order 66) either to cripple the imperium or for the lulz.
I think that with such a greater to force, the raven guard could have slowed down Horus's attempts to reach Terra or even stop him completely. If the ships were available then the traitor fleet could be ambushed and crushed due to the modified void shields cloaking vessels in the void allowing for swift and crippling strikes. Edit: man my typing was terrible 2 years back
My guess? The Raven Guard would be more prominent and successful, but the grim darkness of the far future would demand that the Raptors suffer some kind of latent defect as adequate karma, similar to the Curse of the Wulfen.
Such a good theory. However, the Loyalists that are conservative would undoubtedly be suspicious of the Raptors, due to the techniques their own Legions use to bolster their ranks at a cost of the recruits’ psychological health and their gene-seed. Even then, if the Raptors lasted long enough, they wouldn’t last long after that in my opinion. Acceleration of their gene-seed? That also spells disaster, as their gene-seed wasn’t made to be prepared to resist mutations or any damage done to their gene-stocks, unlike the Primaris’s gene-seed.
Everyone is comparing these to primaris marines, but it seems very likely that the emperor didn't have access to creating stable Immortis Glands. The Primarchs had them sure, but it is implied that the data on how to create them was lost when the gene-labs housing the primarchs were destroyed by the ruinous powers babynapping them. I don't think he knew the proccess and just withheld it from his space marines for the simple reason that at least 1 person working on the astartes original development went on to become part of Belisarius Cawl and it took him a fair bit of time to perfect the proccess to perfect the process of making primaris and their new organs. If their genetic engineering team knew more but chose to withhold those parts from firstborn marines for some reason, he would have had some knowledge of that since his minds had not started degrading that badly yet back then. I think its far more likely that the process used to make raptors was similar that used to create thunder warriors. Easier to mass produce than astartes, and stronger. We ultimately don't know what proccess is used to make a thunder warrior, or how the primarchs genes could have been used in that proccess.
I think if it had succeeded then it is at least probable that the Chapters would have been better off in the 10 millennia since. But The real thing that will help is rebuilding the legions - but each chapter can become a legion. The Primaris are undoubtedly better. Cawls' goals at this point appear to be two-fold. One - making every astartes as powerful as a primarch (or near enough) and two - using Primus as a template for what will likely be a body/vessel for the Emperor to relocate his spirit too since his original body is a bit thrashed at this point.
It is believed that due to the mutations, Raven Guard is not able to replenish operative marines at the same rythm than other chapers. QUESTION: Does the inclusion of primaris marines solve the issue? Would we consider that the chapter is healed from its historic flaws?
Given the rushed nature of the project and the situation prioritising the short term, what if the Raptors had been Corax's version of the thunder warrior project? Bigger andstronger, but with a shorter shelf life? What if the mutations they suffered were so bad because their dna was more slapped togeather, since Corax is no Emperor when it comes to science? If thats true they may have all died to gene flaws after or durring the heresy, causing Corax a similar ammount of grief.
If it had succeeded, the Imperium would definitely would have had far more favorable major engagements that followed the Heresy, like the War of the Beast, being able to push back, and eventually, end the threat of the Beast. They'd been much quicker in putting down the T'au Empire. Halting the immense Waaagh! of Ghazghull on Armageddon. Generally, the Imperium would be far more on the offensive with the hundreds of additional chapters of Space Marines.
Funny thing is that it wasn't as critically needed as people make it out to be. It was needed for survival of the legion, yes, but NOT for Imperium. It was going to provide lots of newbie marines ie scouts. And scouts are effectively equal in terms of skill with imperial stormtroopers. So the faster solution is to take injured IG veterans and put them through extensive cybernetic enhancement process. It'll be cheaper, faster and more efficient. There was no time to get those new marines a century of experience that is setting apart proper SMs. And no, it's not just strength and size as ogryns were always a proof of that. However the real bottleneck for Imperium were ships and FTL.
If it succeeded but the Heresy concluded as we know it then many chapters would survive into the 41st millennium that were otherwise wiped out. Chapters such as the Celestial Lions could return to full strength much faster and engagements fought by understrength Chapters could be more easily won by the Imperium. Of course it also means that renegades such as the Astral Claws could more easily engage in Legion building and potential become an even greater thorn in the Imperium's side.
Hey Remileiz, Magos Inquisitor of probably Saurian Nature, Raptors and Primaris can only be compared in the regard that both are Enhanced Astartes. Corax and his Scientists (Yeah, these exist in 30K and 40K in some regard) probably did create the Raptors differently than the Primaris. And if the Raptors are basically like Primaris, as being purer, bigger, faster and stronger, then there would be NO reason for the Primaris Project by Cawl. Still, Cawl would possibly dabble with the Genes and Augmentations and Equipment of the Astartes anyway, because in Cawl's inhuman eyes, all Imperial technology is way below it's maximum efficiency and peak performance. Which is in some way a huge insult to the Machine God. And also stupid. Actually, I believe, if Cawl would be in charge of creating Astartes Templates for Genes and Armour, no, actually all Imperial Armour, then the Militarum, Astartes and Skitarii would annihilate absolutly everything with high-tech weapons of portable mass destruction like in the good old days of the Great Crusade. Well, Cawl already brings back VOLKITE Weapons and Accelerator Cannons, so yes. The Primaris will probably not be the end, but only a step in Cawl's oily and incense ridden dreams of creating super-cyborg soldiers with mass-destruction at their fingertips. He should collect Necron Lychguards and Heavy Destroyers, take them apart, give it a holy sanctified paintjob and strap their world ending armaments on a Terminator and just tell them "It's super special Dark Age Tech". And if the Inquisition comes yelling at the door he will just say: "Where do you get all your cyborg slaves from now on? Or your highly dangerous xenos tech? B***** I'm THE Archmagos Belisarius Toasterfuc**** Cawl, I'm the one who knocks!"
There's a shocking amount of similarity between the raptor project by the Raven Guard and the Primaris Marines.
lack of creativity on behalf of GW?
GohanBento IMO this is how GW will bring Primaris-ish Chaos Marines into the lore as the Alpha Legion stole the secrets to making the Raptors.
@@phreakazoith2237 That or GW had the Primaris Marines already in the works and needed some information to come out to later explain things down the line. Where they dropped the ball is that they forgot about the Raptor Project by the time they introduced the the Primaris Marines.
@@phreakazoith2237 I read about the special Raven Guard before it was called The Raptor Project in an old issue of White Dwarf over 10 years ago. A short story have Space Wolves witness the savagry of them and understanding the situation because of their own Wulfen curse.
If it succeded: They would be the Clever Boys Chapter.
*a chaos marine hides in a kitchen as 2 raptor marines look around, chainswords ready*
@@irondragon1785 *Disguised as fridge.*
*ONE OF THE RAPTOR'S IS AN ALPHA LEGIONAIRE*
New poster boys I would say
I just saw a new version of orkz with 'Kleva Boyz' with raven motifs and Ork tech power armour hurtling towards the heretics on bikes and jet packs and the choas marines looking at each other and just asking 'Did these used to be Raven Guard?"
If it HAD succeeded, Corvus Corax would not be stuck in the Engine of Woes.
Awaiting Magnus and Kitten to stumble upon his hiding spot...writing poetry about ...birds and super death birds.
Trying to fit anyone ~8 feet tall into a Prius turns it into an Engine of Woes.
Apollon, Primarch of the 22nd
Especially if said Engine of Woes contains a Primarch whom witnessed his red brother accidentally - ACCIDENTALLY- killed Vulcan!!
@@emperorconstantine1.361 VULCAN LIVES!! *STOMP* *STOMP*
@@60sSam Smart Car, not a Prius. So even more impossible.
Alpharius: "It's just a prank bro"
Brother save me, Dorn has me locked up on Terra
Edit: I do need to re-read that part of the book to make sure but we know omegon lives cos dorn can produce a body where girly man can't and it was a small 1 line text from second edition (not much has survived that edition), can't use that brotherly signal dying as a way to tell ether as every primarch has had an alpharius stand in at one point without them knowing.
Requesting your coordinates for..... Inquisitorial purposes
@@shahizani923oh please, your kind has proclaimed we have been wiped out 3 times already, do you really think you stand anymore of a chance
@@bryce4724 well the Imperium doesn't have anything else to do so might as well try again
@@shahizani923 depends if like me you dont count 8th in witch case yeah you dont have much else to do, if u are including 8th ed then you have both the question on if the primarus are heresy considering there creation was done withough consulting the emperor, if you think girlyman is being controlled by the knife ear witch. There is the hole warp rift and brining it back to the primarus.... U checked there gene seed? How about the grey knight gene seed, you will find there are a few things that may stand out about them. Corax at least had direct permission from the emperor and the gene samples but girly man didnt, not did the magos who created these tainted seed beings. Got a lot of work my inquisitive one
Imagine what we'd get if Belisarius Cawl got his hands on Raptor gene seed and built the Primaris around it. You'd probably get a more powerful and more physically intimidating Space Marine.
That's probably what will happen the next time GW decides that we all should repurchase our space marine armies.
thunder warriors 2: electric boogaloo
10k years and no updates on the process....primaris are raptor v.2
Well Corvus is technically back so maybe?
@@briangilgan Actually what if Cawl just found one of those Laboratories and the Primaris are just project raven (which was unfinished ) finished in an Inferior way by cawl over the last 10k years.
Hmmm.... The Alpha Legion are noted for having the largest average height among the Astartes....
Who could truly say?
Though more seriously, they were noted for having these large Astartes even before the HH but that doesn't mean they didn't use Raptors to create fake Primarchs.
Yo!
I was hoping someone would catch onto that.
That's because of their late development by the emperor. Perfectly stable and efficient geneseed without almost any flaws. The alpha marines were kind of the space marines 1.5 without further upgrades while the raptors would have been a much larger step up from the typical space marine. Alphas were just a bit larger and had more similarities with their primarchs than other legions which made the primarch-to-marine mindswap much more believable in appearance. It's a shame they didn't used the raptor geneseed to push chaos. Raptor vs primaris would have been fun.
*How the Alpha Legion troops were discovered*
Alpha Legion Marine: Hello fellow Raven Guard I would like to see the gene seed incubation chamber
Raven Guard Marine: Oh Sure, wait a goddamn minute *gets tape measure and checks height* THIS GUYS A TRAITOR
Alpha Legion Marine: *goes on radio* Guys we’ve been outsmarted do it now.
> make new marines within weeks
Might as well replace the guardsmen with raptor
I think that was the plan
Also green hair suisei? Heresy
Well, withouth slightly better weapons, armour and above all - mindset adjustment - this would be waste.
would take too long
If it suceeded the raven guard would have been more relevant
You mean relevant at all?
Considering how fast the Raptors grew and the required age of implantation, does this mean the Raven Guard had a bunch of nine foot tall 10 year olds with automatic grenade launchers running around battlefields?
So... xbox online basically
There were also "false astartes" who could be given some enhancements. They wouldn't be compatible with the full suite of astartes surgeries, but they could get enough to almost fit in.
Halo. That's just Halo.
yes
I think the statement at the end of this video "we will never know" is premature. Remember the alpha Legion stole the technology and knowledge to create the Raptor Marines. That means that technology and knowledge is still out there probably in a single package somewhere.
That could give GW a way to launch new pseudo Primaris marines models for Chaos
@@Kimshunpei oooh you're right that would be actually pretty cool
How are the Alpha Legion not massively numerous if they stole the tech?
@@alexanderm8880 Maybe they are massively numerous. The alpha Legion seems to show up in a lot of different theaters. All across the Galaxy they keep showing up in an instant. It's almost as if they have chapters of Marines stationed in every corner of the Galaxy waiting to move out at an instant's notice.
@Alexander M
How do we not know? They are a multi headed hydra. Every where and no where. Omagon would not have shared it. They will be a. 3rd front. Legion actually sized. Numerous great companies?? Idk. I feel. The alphas playing the long game. They distrust chaos absolutely. Maybe they come
Back when e wakes up and become welcome back. New warriors for multi fleet tyranids w chaos attacking as well... gotta have bodies... redemption thru sacrifice? Bleed to make up w white scars?? Would be compelling to say the least....
Sounds like it would’ve meant we wouldn’t have primarus marines
Honestly it sounds like the Raptors were probably superior to them anyways.
I think the primaris are slightly more super than these super-duper marines. Normal supersoldiers (marines) are already pretty good, obviously. The raptors sound slightly more super, whereas the primaris sound ultra-super
(Warhammer power-scaling is utterly broken and really stupid)
@@chryasor9254 How Super-Duper are the Grey Knights?
at least the raptor project would have circumvented one issue about Primaris: just one legion filling up its ranks by a speedy and creative method is not a big deal. Raptors were Raven among Raven and learnt their ways from start. It was not like: Yo honorable chapter with long history and unique traditions, here are your new superior bros...
rather not have primarus marines in the first place so if this happened I would be a happy man since primarus makes no sense for marines
Been watching a lot of your 40k lore videos never really was a fan of this franchise but honestly learning more about it it might be another fandom\community to add to my collection
I'd like to think that they would have peaked Horus's eyes out.
yes
You mean pecked not peaked
Emperors Children raptors.
Nice to see a big 40k channel tackling this topic. Everyone blows Cawl's cyber-dong for being so smart while Corvus did what he did more than 10 millenia earlier and better.
I wonder if Belisarius Cawl got the idea to create Primaris Marines from this experiment? Imagine these guys succeeded and would become Proto-Primaris Marines
That's what I was thinking... What if Cawl just found this tech, pinched it, and is passing it off as his own work? It wouldn't save the character overall, but it would at least add a bit of believe-ability to the current Primaris background.
@@CHRIS-wm8vp I've been thinking this since I heard the Primaris described.
The other, more interesting possibility is that the Primaris Marines are derived from the pure geneseed recovered by the alpha legion, which could imply that somehow the Primaris Marines and/or Cawl are potentially an alpha legion asset.
Oh, I do love the Raptors! I really wished that FW had released a unit of them, but then we could well use the Word Bearer Gal Vorbak models and Blade-Slaves. Got some of those, so I might well have to go and try this now! Great video.
Damn, I’m so early on this video that I have no idea what he’s taking about? You’re telling me that Horus turns traitor?? You’re insane, he’s the damn War Master!
A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories.
The next iteration of next generation ultra mega omega apex super saiyajin space marines should be based on the genes of Sly Marbo.
Alpharius: Gimme the tims.
Corax: Not the tims man.
It mentioned he killed all the surviving raptors. Does that include the combat effective, non-corrupted first squad that killed those word bearers?
The Raptors knew that they would still be corrupted in the long run and probably voluntereed in being purged by their Primarch.
The first squad founded the Raptors chapter, afaik. Without the full technology, the only benefits that they have is a bit more stable geneseed, sharpened eyesight, and better reactions.
@@p_serdiuk it seems that you have forgotten about the Demon blood mixture that Alpharius put in the fake Raptor project.
The post heresy Raptor chapter may have been just created by Corax so that the Imperium wont forget the sacrifices of those who volunteered for the Raptor treatment.
@@jamescawl6904 why would they be corrupted, the Alpha Legion defectors didn't corrupt their geneseed.
@@jamescawl6904 The Raptors (chapter) were created from initiates that were already in the space marine pipeline at the time of Istvan. They were basically the first marines to come out of training post Massacre, and then utilized as the core of the new Raptors Chapter.
Would love to see a what if Magnus and the 1000 sons beat back Russ and the Space Wolves and the burning of Prospero never happened video!!!
Or what if lehman ignored horus last command and meet with magnus before sending in his legion so they could talk it out
@@maliceharding4668 make more sense then Magnus winning even as loyalist his chapter was the smallest as by the time he was found most of their marines had become chaos spawn. the first ritual that stopped that was tied to Magnus himself it's why they had to us the rubric when he became a demon prince . if he fell during the heresy his legion die with him.Russ just going with his originally order to take Magnus to the emperor instead make more sense given the space wolf numbers advantage and the fact it indicated that they have destroy a legion before
Hm. This was rather interesting. I never knew there was a Raptor Project. When i read the title of this video i was thinking.. Was the Emperor planing to make what later became the Raptors of the Chaos Space Marines. The ones with claws and flight capabilities.
Warp talons. They’re call warp talons. Think possess raptors.
this is the earliest i've been on anything
What if prospero never burned?
Then the Emperor would have kicked Horus' ass before he gained the power needed to rival Big E.
What if he wasnt such a bitch
What if Magnus did nothing wrong?
@@khai96x impossible, bitches be bitching and witches be witching...
@Deathcoldan Magnus is inherently a good guy.
Its fuckin Horus's fault, but Horus wouldnt have fell to chaos if it weren't for Lorgar who wouldnt have fallen if it weren't for Kor Phareon and Erebus.
That leaves the loose end of the alpha Legion possessing the tech and never making use of it...
But why didn't corax just make the trip back to the lab to get the tech again? Surely he didn't just empty a whole lab by himself.
almost all technology pertaining to geneseed manipulation was created many years earlier and around that time machines built more intricate machines. humanity simply didnt understand how to make certain things, more or less how to recreate something that probably didnt even have blueprints
I guess chaos proved, in theory, that life will find a way...
NO STEP ON SNEK!🐍
Hydra Dominatus
I still think Corax gave the gene tech to Bobby G and Cawl before he left.
What if Fulgrim joined Ferrus Manus for the sake of love? Edit: The brotherly kind... like what they had before the heresy.
This is beyond heresy
You’re voice is magical idk why. It’s like prime documentary voice hours.
First time I heard of Primaris, I assumed the Raptors were the jumping off point. Missed opportunity.
It sounds like Guilleman and Cawl took ideas from the raptor project and incorporated them into the primaris project.
Could Horus be an Epic Gamer?
I don't know, has he even said the n-word? How can you be an epic gamer otherwise?
@@carlost856 It's because we need to RISE UP against the Imperium of Chads.
@@carlost856 cause that's not how gamers are?
Corvus is such a nice primarch. He let his mutaded sons fight for the emperor. Unlike some other primarchs. Who would have killed them
Moreover, he let them fight for as long as they could be commanded and be effective on the battlefield. He was very fatherly with them, like any primarch should have been to his sons. He felt absolutely crushing guilt over the failure of the raptor project, deciding to take it upon himself alone to face the consequences of his perceived failure
If it succeeded: They would have still spent all their time on their homeworld because their Primarch was still a reclusive nutcase and still had little to no impact on the remainder of the Heresy.
Meester Writer Kinda, he did a lot of sabotage and behind the scenes work, Saved Russ and the remainder of the Space Wolves on Yarant, so he did some things.
@@gwimbus4399 On a tactical scale, sure, on a campaign scale however the Raven Guard were essentially a non-entity.
@@mrwri Yes, because they had been reduced to less than 10% of their prior combat strength. If they had been able to replenish this, they might have had more of an impact. Corax didn't stay out of the conflict entirely, he just worked with what he had, which wasn't much.
@@mrwri The Raptor project was to help in repleneshing the Loyalist numbers unfortunately Alpharius had to steal the plan in order to continue the story.
He became a reclusive nutcase as a result of Isstvan.
Within 49 seconds? Not bad! Now about that theory....
It would have been so much easier to say cawl had finished the raptors as opposed to all the primaris bs
What would have happened? The fan base wouldn't have been angry about "Space Marine Space Marines" because they wouldn't have blue paint.
Now I want to build a Heresy Era Primaris army that are the Raptor prototypes.
Thanks for the vid sir.
As of this moment, we are all dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for we are Raptors. Remember, victory is life
I'd imagine the Raptor Astartes would remain as a 'stop gap' measure in case a legion gets a large chunk of its forces murked for whatever reason.
As if the alpha legion could fail... Their best agent managed to continue the project, and created the primaris. Yes that is you Cawl!
What if the assassin temples worked with adeptus mechanics and space marines to make super assassins that could kill anyone or anything
It would have mattered little during the heresy. Their fleet was almost completely destroyed. They didn't have the capacity to quickly make massive amounts of power armour with Mars gone. The aftermath, however, that's where they would have made a real impact.
The raptor project became the primaris project is also a theory
Not the first time Papa Smurf would have stolen some badass strats from Corax.
+MonKeiBusiness What else did Robot Girlyman swipe?
@@rippspeck It's more a joke, because they battled in simulations. Corax won the first three but couldn't beat him after the fourth, after Rowboat adapted and learned too much.
It'd make more sense than that Somehow someone with less resources, and access managed to not only recreate big E's work but also improve upon it in less time than E himself did so
@@Voron_Aggrav Cawl is one of the most powerful men in the imperium and can basically get his hands on whatever he wants, so your first statement is wrong. He also was working with a Primarch on it, had helped Big E personally with the original space marine project. And most importantly, had parts of the documentation that said how to create a Primarch. And even with all of that combined it took him 10,000 years to make what could be considered a worse Custodian. There are plenty of reasons to complain when it comes to Primaris, but Cawl making them, is not one.
I think that it'd be easier to say the primaris are the successors to the raptors making it easier to understand how belesarious got to where he was at when gulliman returned. Hey buddy go figure out what's wrong with the raven guard's raptors and see if you can purge the taint. Perhaps an early raptor that survived the initial procedure was used as a template of sorts or maybe one of the many conflicts with alpha legionnaires lead to rediscoveries of tech that were used in the raptor project. The raptors could have also just served as an example that the current marines can be improved in various ways outlined in the accounts of the raptors victories setting a mental goal to build and research towards.
What if they had more Dakka?
Great video!
Corvus Corax, 40K Nightwing. | 3:25 - Blame Lorgar! Purge his filth! | 7:06 - (monotone) All hail the Ultrasmurfs. | What if Konrad Curze was found as he was crawling out of that hole in Nostramo?
considering how strong and fast the raptors could be produced I think there had to be a drastic downside. maybe they only have an average lifespan than the hundreds to thousand years of a space marine. or maybe their gene-seed can't be passed down like a normal marine.
I think the Loyalists would have ended up stopping the Traitors in their tracks or at least drawn out the Heresy. It would have ended up as attrition that the Traitor Legions might have lost but Daemons might have ended up as a slight equalizer.
Depending on how long the heresy got drawn out, the grey knights could have potentially been ready, putting any hope of daemonic assistance out the window
Not a huge Corax fan, BUT do you think this could of helped other legions with their own inherit mutations? I mean could it help the blood angels or space wolfs?
and Salamanders?
emperor keeps holding good shit like this in his back pocket until its too late
Imagine if Raven Guard were the poster boy Marines in stead of Ultras on all the GW marketing and lore....amazing.
If it was a success, then Corvus would have spent less time in the Engine of Woe... less not zero.
what happened to the first non-tainted batch of raptors? their geneseed was not used to create new astartes? They were few, but there should be some "descendentes" today, right?
Interesting because Corax IS confirmed Alive & Well (possibly now a non chaotic Daemon Prince a la Legion of the Damned, Saints etc). Literally Trolling The Word Bearers even in the “safety” of the eye of terror.
Well, if it succeeds, the RG would become an OP chapter during the Heresy.and could turn the tide of the Conflict tbh.
The main question though, is even if the experiment worked, would Corvus Corax be able to make enough Raptors fast enough to make a difference in the Heresy
several thousand raven guard raptors were made "pure" before the alpha legion tampering. the first chapters of raptors were something between a primaris and a firstborn. i wonder if any survived the horus heresy and went on to form chapters during the scouring.
Great video
REMLEIZ can we have a comparison between the Raptors and Primaris?
Great video though i would like to know what the background music used in the video is.
Very likely that Guilliman and Cawl found out about it and built and conceptualized the Primaris initiative from Corax' Raptors.
Would the Raven Guard have become the "default Gene template" instead of the Ultramarines?
I'm sure people would have been fine with that.
"Sooo are our Custodian Grey Knight Primaris Raptors ready yet?"
Raven Guard would be the most numerous legion.
i am not a great fan of primaris but do we have Info about their project Path (Where their were started Dna wise How their were modified ect) could Belisarius Cawl or Guilliman have used Raptor Dna at the base of the primaris and just added 3 New/rework emperor Prototype implant. Having people make a better version of Emperor work sound always false to me but people rediscover and awkwardly put together his work sound more realistic. (Sorry for the phrasing and other not my language)
If he had given the project to the Salamanders and Iron Hands there could have been two additional full strength legions to protect Terra. The Houus Heresy May have turned out very differently.
I wonder if they would share the method
Perhaps the primaris project is already based on the raptors or at least belisarius used it as a guide or prior research in order to progress so darn fast on new astartes
In the end of the book Alpharius kept the stolen gene tech. So were the Aplha legion using it or kept safe somewhere?
In the audio drama "The Geld" an Alpha Legion Apothecary is seen to seemingly be using the tech, though his creations were misshapen and monstrous. So whether they can use it properly is another matter entirely.
Genecraft is only part of the process. Without the relevant drugs, hypnotherapy, equipment, and procedures its probably all but useless.
Corax wouldn't have sent his legion to reinforce terra, that's not his way. Corax would have attacked Horus's Rear and slow and cut off supply lines. In siege war it's attrition that wins the day and if you can keep the sieging force from resupplying it's more likely the defenders will win the day. It could cause Horus to split his force to keep Corax off his ass taking off pressure from terra allowing the Ultramarines enough time to get to terra and reinforce the defense. Once the Ultramarines show up it's over for horus, so he might just ignore Corax and push harder against terra causing him to be reckless and desperate wasting a lot of his strength in mistakes maybe even enough to allow Corax to attack his force directly at the same time terra goes for an all out offensive catching horus in a pincer. I'm not sure how stupid horus is though, with all the chaos in him it can make him prone to more emotional thinking which leads to these kind of tactical mistakes. He'd either push harder, split his forces, delay the siege all together though that would allow the Ultramarines to reinforce terra so it will be a harder nut to crack but that would keep his rear less exposed. >_< so many variables. I'd split my forces and attack Deliverance with a small but hard force just to keep the raven guard pend down so they can't harass my rear to effectively and push hard into terra and hopefully do the deed before the raven guard mops up the attacking force and goes after my rear or before the ultramarines show up and beat my ass from terra to the eye. either way though it's more of a Pyrrhic victory because even if the big E is sacked Horus wouldn't have the numbers to hold terra and with the losses from the siege and a full strength raven guard proto-primaris legion and the Ultramarines hellz nah horus would have to retreat. In short humanity would have been fucked but so would horus.
im sure it says in deliverance lost that the new raptors marines was given the new armour MK VI corvus pattern... so they cant have been bigger then the other raven guards... they might be stronger and faster but not bigger because they would not fit the armour then
Astartes are not of unigorm size. The armour would've been scaled to fit
At least the Raptor Chapter probably still carries on the legacy of Corvus.
Having the Raven Guard at full strength could have challenged the Night Lords and Freeded up the Dark Angels allowing for two more Loyalists Legions to defend Terra, if they could reach it.
I always wondered why Chaos Raptors are named the exact same way as these Raptors
Hot take: The alpha legion leaked a Raptor procedure piecemeal to the mechanicus with a hidden flaw that they could exploit whenever they want (Ala order 66) either to cripple the imperium or for the lulz.
I think that with such a greater to force, the raven guard could have slowed down Horus's attempts to reach Terra or even stop him completely. If the ships were available then the traitor fleet could be ambushed and crushed due to the modified void shields cloaking vessels in the void allowing for swift and crippling strikes.
Edit: man my typing was terrible 2 years back
The raptor project marines were larger than baseline astartes, so was new armor created for them by the Mechanicum?
My guess? The Raven Guard would be more prominent and successful, but the grim darkness of the far future would demand that the Raptors suffer some kind of latent defect as adequate karma, similar to the Curse of the Wulfen.
What if Russ' orders to capture Magnus were never changed by Horus?
Such a good theory. However, the Loyalists that are conservative would undoubtedly be suspicious of the Raptors, due to the techniques their own Legions use to bolster their ranks at a cost of the recruits’ psychological health and their gene-seed. Even then, if the Raptors lasted long enough, they wouldn’t last long after that in my opinion. Acceleration of their gene-seed? That also spells disaster, as their gene-seed wasn’t made to be prepared to resist mutations or any damage done to their gene-stocks, unlike the Primaris’s gene-seed.
Sounds pretty great to me.
A moment of silence for the greatness that could have been the Raptor Guard.
Everyone is comparing these to primaris marines, but it seems very likely that the emperor didn't have access to creating stable Immortis Glands. The Primarchs had them sure, but it is implied that the data on how to create them was lost when the gene-labs housing the primarchs were destroyed by the ruinous powers babynapping them. I don't think he knew the proccess and just withheld it from his space marines for the simple reason that at least 1 person working on the astartes original development went on to become part of Belisarius Cawl and it took him a fair bit of time to perfect the proccess to perfect the process of making primaris and their new organs. If their genetic engineering team knew more but chose to withhold those parts from firstborn marines for some reason, he would have had some knowledge of that since his minds had not started degrading that badly yet back then.
I think its far more likely that the process used to make raptors was similar that used to create thunder warriors. Easier to mass produce than astartes, and stronger. We ultimately don't know what proccess is used to make a thunder warrior, or how the primarchs genes could have been used in that proccess.
I think if it had succeeded then it is at least probable that the Chapters would have been better off in the 10 millennia since. But The real thing that will help is rebuilding the legions - but each chapter can become a legion. The Primaris are undoubtedly better. Cawls' goals at this point appear to be two-fold. One - making every astartes as powerful as a primarch (or near enough) and two - using Primus as a template for what will likely be a body/vessel for the Emperor to relocate his spirit too since his original body is a bit thrashed at this point.
It is believed that due to the mutations, Raven Guard is not able to replenish operative marines at the same rythm than other chapers. QUESTION: Does the inclusion of primaris marines solve the issue? Would we consider that the chapter is healed from its historic flaws?
Given the rushed nature of the project and the situation prioritising the short term, what if the Raptors had been Corax's version of the thunder warrior project? Bigger andstronger, but with a shorter shelf life? What if the mutations they suffered were so bad because their dna was more slapped togeather, since Corax is no Emperor when it comes to science? If thats true they may have all died to gene flaws after or durring the heresy, causing Corax a similar ammount of grief.
Chaos Space Marine: *hides in kitchen*
Raptor marines: *Looks through the peephole*
If it had succeeded, the Imperium would definitely would have had far more favorable major engagements that followed the Heresy, like the War of the Beast, being able to push back, and eventually, end the threat of the Beast. They'd been much quicker in putting down the T'au Empire. Halting the immense Waaagh! of Ghazghull on Armageddon. Generally, the Imperium would be far more on the offensive with the hundreds of additional chapters of Space Marines.
Each loyalist legion broke up into hundreds of chapters, if this project succeeded we'd be looking at thousands if not hundreds of thousands more
What if the Emperor found Sanguine first ?
the chaos gods cant let their food get toooo strong tooooo sooon...
Raven Guard is the second most dicked over Legion/chapter (Lamenters are mosted dicked). They need a break for once.
Funny thing is that it wasn't as critically needed as people make it out to be. It was needed for survival of the legion, yes, but NOT for Imperium. It was going to provide lots of newbie marines ie scouts. And scouts are effectively equal in terms of skill with imperial stormtroopers. So the faster solution is to take injured IG veterans and put them through extensive cybernetic enhancement process. It'll be cheaper, faster and more efficient. There was no time to get those new marines a century of experience that is setting apart proper SMs. And no, it's not just strength and size as ogryns were always a proof of that.
However the real bottleneck for Imperium were ships and FTL.
If it succeeded but the Heresy concluded as we know it then many chapters would survive into the 41st millennium that were otherwise wiped out. Chapters such as the Celestial Lions could return to full strength much faster and engagements fought by understrength Chapters could be more easily won by the Imperium.
Of course it also means that renegades such as the Astral Claws could more easily engage in Legion building and potential become an even greater thorn in the Imperium's side.
Happy Corax would be a thing
After years of training to become full space marines
Their final test is to open a door
I wonder why the Alpha Legion doesnt have raptor marines (not the jumpy dudes :P) when they took the notes
Look beyond what you can see. Look for what is missing.
Hey Remileiz, Magos Inquisitor of probably Saurian Nature,
Raptors and Primaris can only be compared in the regard that both are Enhanced Astartes.
Corax and his Scientists (Yeah, these exist in 30K and 40K in some regard) probably did create the Raptors differently than the Primaris.
And if the Raptors are basically like Primaris, as being purer, bigger, faster and stronger, then there would be NO reason for the Primaris Project by Cawl.
Still, Cawl would possibly dabble with the Genes and Augmentations and Equipment of the Astartes anyway, because in Cawl's inhuman eyes,
all Imperial technology is way below it's maximum efficiency and peak performance. Which is in some way a huge insult to the Machine God. And also stupid.
Actually, I believe, if Cawl would be in charge of creating Astartes Templates for Genes and Armour,
no, actually all Imperial Armour, then the Militarum, Astartes and Skitarii would annihilate absolutly everything with high-tech weapons of portable mass destruction like in the good old days of the Great Crusade. Well, Cawl already brings back VOLKITE Weapons and Accelerator Cannons, so yes.
The Primaris will probably not be the end, but only a step in Cawl's oily and incense ridden dreams of creating super-cyborg soldiers with mass-destruction at their fingertips.
He should collect Necron Lychguards and Heavy Destroyers, take them apart, give it a holy sanctified paintjob and strap their world ending armaments on a Terminator and just tell them "It's super special Dark Age Tech". And if the Inquisition comes yelling at the door he will just say: "Where do you get all your cyborg slaves from now on? Or your highly dangerous xenos tech? B***** I'm THE Archmagos Belisarius Toasterfuc**** Cawl, I'm the one who knocks!"