The Broken Role That Everyone Hates: Riot Reworking Jungle AGAIN? Preseason 2023 League of Legends
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ต.ค. 2022
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Today, let's talk about a league of legends role that has been the topic of conversation for years about why players don't like to play it. The preseason 13 / 2023 jungle changes with the new jungle pets, return of chemtech dragon, chemtech soul, This video was written, produced, edited, and voiced by Kellen (Exil)
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Preseason 13 - New Plants! Chemtech Dragon Map
Jungle Guide Preseason 13
Music --- Epidemic Sound
Sources:
PBE Fiddlesticks clear (still double camp)
• (CHECK DESC) Preseason...
Early Game Jungle Pathing Guide
• Earlygame Pathing Expl...
Nidalee Jungle Clear Guide
• Video
LS reacts to preseason 13 PBE new jungle new items return of ROA new tank items
• LS | THE NEW SEASON 13...
Karthus Jungle Clear Guide
• The Fastest Jungle Cle...
Lee Sin Jungle Clear Guide
• [Season 12.5] Lee Sin ...
Diana Jungle Clear Guide
• Diana clearspeed buffs... - เกม
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I wanna be cool like you, so I will
@@GenesisR_ :)
Opera GX is so good it could not even log in my twitch account xD
Imagine a so called "gaming browser" that is unable to log in twitch. It lived about an hour on my PC then it went to where it belongs....
You mean another chromium wrapper?
No thanks, I'll stay with Firefox and Manifest V2
sorry man, i am already watching this on opera gx
And everyone wonders why nobody wants to ever jungle, it’s like the role changes every few months it feels like
You also have to learn so many champions that play so differently
Agreed
YOU!?! HOW? WHY ARE YOU EVERYWHERE I GO
. Everywhere i go i see you're face. 😭
@@discussedbalkanslav7828 There are multiple people sharing one account + this account mentioned in past that people who use it have no other social media accounts.
Hope that explains why this account is everywhere.
I believe they change jungle Bc wtf are they going to do to lanes?Laning is perfectly balanced, they can’t alter minion spawn time, maybe they change a few bushes or give an extra ward? But jungle is so much more in-depth, and abstract with more things to tool around with, and that’s why jungle always changes.
One additional note to this video -
Something unexpected I've seen in the comments is how many people said something along the lines of "clearing isn't a skill clearing is just PVE, junglers shouldn't have to worry about that. It's hard / stupid / lame that every champion has a different clear"
I don't understand this. It's like - of course clearing should be a way to prove skill... Because you cannot "miss" the last hit on camps, junglers need to differentiate themselves while farming. Their efficiency and pathing is the jungle equivalent of laning.
It's true that Diana Karthus and Lee Sin all have different clears... just like how Anivia, Zed, Kayle, Riven, Renekton, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, And Janna all have different laning phases.
Anivia has mana management issues, Zed looks for level 3 and level 6 all ins against squishy matchups and manages his energy, Renekton takes ignite and looks to kill early and manages his fury bar.
If you think that laning on Anivia is no different than Zed, or that Anivia doesn't have to learn how to play different matchups for different situations just like junglers need to know different clears, IDK. Maybe you're in a lower rank that you don't have to lane differently against different champions, but trust me, that's just how the game works. I'm not even a jungle main, but I can appreciate a lot the level of expertise in clearing. Just in the same way I can appreciate Chovy's laning.
late to this video, but l legit broke into a smile when l saw the new pings, happiest day of my league carrier.
the jungler position shouldn't be part of the game lol it holds the game state captive if changing anything requires jungling to be reworked
@@jansonshrock2859 funny thing is jungle used to be fun. like in season 5ish era when we had purple smite. that smite alone made literally every champ viable in the jungle. Why? How? Because purple smite was an aoe smite that stunned the camp as well as heal you. now that i think about it, i think this was the Weedwick era, patch 4.20 with devourer. We also had wrigglers lantern at some point which made jungling against a user tough, because you know theyre gonna be farming all game so you HAVE to make plays or youll fall super far behind. Jungle was like second or third most played role. hell we used to have the red buff , blue buff, and wraith as an item. Jungle was too good, they nerfed it year after year. They had to. Junglers were super oppressive. Especially tank jungle meta, just take purple smite on sej and gank, smite did all the work for you. Im just a boomer whos been playing since s3 though, and was a jungle main until like s7 or 8 or something. I dabble my toes in it from time to time but its literally a trash role now.
The problem with the complex clearing strategies is that it's just one more of the MANY things that junglers have to master if they even want to dream of playing the role competitively.
There's a reason why Jungle is the least played role, and it's because it's a pain in the ass to all but the most focused of ascended shaolin monks to fucking enjoy. You're expected to know at which camp to start, clear in record times, pay constant attention to lanes, pay constant attention to objectives, gank three different lanes in equal measure lest one of them fail and abuse and blame you for it, all while keeping your clearing consistent so you don't get underleveled, counter-jungle, deal with counter-jungling... Shit, before fairly recent QoL improvements, just SURVIVING jungle mobs or not running out of mana after one camp was a challenge.
Is there any wonder why this role has to keep getting changes and updates? It has never not been a stressful disaster zone compared to the somewhat laid-back experience the lanes can be. And honestly, that's kinda by-design. Until they introduce an update that rivals the warding items one that takes a lot of the pressure away from the Jungle, it's always going to be that way.
But the problem os riot trying to standarize the role in to one clear method and speed, contrary to what was in particular in earliest seasons, wich end up automatically to exclude the majority of the roster from the role because if everything play the same, but an handfull of champs have less cons, you end up picking them and nothing else, unles riot had buff and powercreep the entire roster, or overly nerf the tier 1 picks making the role weaker and less popular.
As a Jungle main, I can't describe the amount of insanity when playing the role.
And don't even get me started on my lanes losing and blaming the Jungler
This role is unplayable without mute all, trust me. Mute all is broken AF it instantly buffs your LP
@@Exil22 I know
Should have done that before my first account got banned :(
And I had it since 2010 (I played irregularly)
Good ol' jungle role.
The only role where you consistently feel as if you're in a 1v9.
@@Exil22 or just don’t get mad at the game and type mald to your shit teammates easy ratio on them
@@Exil22 you cant do that below master tho cause u have no idea how the game works anyways so you need the ping for the dive top when its renekton vs a 100 hp enemy toplaner
Ppl will queue up jungle with mute all perma farm AI and u can ping for cover or wte and they will just not listen
Why do i have to play 4v5 because my jungler is tilted and queued up anyways when i predicted the play?
Why do i have to shoot myself in the foot?
"u can back off"
Ye
He can also
"just come"
I really love your suggestions about the leash range.
1. Keeping the leash range the same and
2. just adding a few things like:
2a. to improve clarity of the patience indicator and
2b. the camp not reseting completely and making you lose 10 seconds from your clear, because you didn't hit the pefect pixel,
I think would the best.
I think it’s good how it is, because yeah it’ll reset if you don’t hit the pixel perfect clear, but that’s only if you’re going for the pixel perfect clear. You could go for a lesson advanced type of clear and not have the camp reset but it would also take longer then if you got the perfect clear. The ability to farm all your camps as efficiently as possible is one of the most skilled expressive things in League of Legends.
even increasing the leashing range would be nice tbh. I learned the Morgana raptors+red start the hard way but making it a bit easier would go a long way tbh lol
doing 2 camps at the same is.. autistic to say the least.
They dont care about what would be fun. They just want to improve the jungle player statistic. Which is why noone plays it cause the role isnt fun. But only a genius could fix that one so /shrug
they did both of those things
The problem is that they are changing jungle so much so often that jungle mains just can’t be bothered to keep playing the role. You are the most likely to get flamed no matter what happens, you are extremely reliant on meta (early gank junglers vs farming junglers and such) and making jungle easier for everyone (learning optimal pathing is just experiencing and learning, just requires you to practice) just makes it feel like you are wasting your time trying to master a role that’s likely to change next year ANYWAY. Idk, I obviously don’t speak for everyone else, but I feel like getting flamed no matter what I do isn’t worth the little fun I get from playing my favorite champs in jungle that get outshadowed by new champs in the jungle, shoved in there because haha funny popular champion so more people play jungle.
I fully agree with the last part, having my previously learnt skill expression essentially become a QTE makes me not want to even bother learning jungling
@@z1u512 it is SO frustrating when you spent ages on learning something, only for it to be entirely changed or basically shown by the game for everyone.
agree, but I'll just add that there's not really a need to be reliant on the meta for your champs picked, not on jungle nor on any role. Besides literally pro level, champion mastery is more important
@@Amaling This is true most of the time. However, remember when double scuttle was so strong? Early game junglers were meta simply because they could contest that and usually win. That’s what I mean.
Mute chat LOL if you are bad and get flamed get better and mute chat while you are at It stop complaining, they are making jungle easier for noobs like you and worse Who cant do anything in the role that controls the early game
Yea I did some clear testing on PBE and I felt this. 28:00, the pet makes clearing camps extremely awkward, since if your kiting a camp around between autos the pet wont hit the camp consistently. So to maximize your speed its actually better to keep the camp in place and not kite it at all. It also feels incredibly bad to walk away and try to let the pet finish the camp off like you did with burn because it just wont hit the camp most of the time so you end up wasting time turning back around and hitting the camp again.
Glad I am not the only one who felt this. Something seemed just so off? Weird? Awkward? Take your pick of how you want to describe it.
Also another note, I think removing double camping had to happen. Ranged champs, and champs will AOE will always outpace single target junglers. The change makes it so Ranged Champs/AOE champs cant broaden that gap even more with camp kiting and leashing. So right now Karthus can clear a full minute faster than WW if your kiting well and managing burn properly. Ideally this change pulls all junglers within a 2:50 - 3:20 clear speed, instead of the 2:40-4:00 we have now. It also reduces the skill ceiling when it comes to clearing camps, which most junglers are going to dislike, but for game health i think this was a good change. Fast clearers like Karthus will lose winrate because of this, and champs like Kha/Rengar/WW, should gain a bit, not sure how much might not even be half a percent change, but if it normalizes clears to all be within 30 seconds of eachother i think thats good.
@@Exil22 "Wrong" would be the word I use. When you spend so much time kiting camps you build up that muscle memory. As a jungler currently your moving at all times so to stand in place doing a camp makes you feel stuck, like your not optimizing or that your bleeding time.
@@Babs2424 Here's a couple things that I'd like to point out
I think that jglers with AoE SHOULD be able to clear faster than single target junglers. If you look at most junglers with AoE and stupid fast clear times like Fiddle, Karthus, Shyv, Eve, Diana, Kayn, Lillia, Zac, etc., they give up ganking cc and/or early 1v1 dmg/dueling and tend to be very weak pre-6. Compare that to champs with worse clear times like Rammus, WW, Nunu, Lee, Wukong, Elise, Rek'Sai, Trundle, Kha, Kindred, etc., they all have either really strong ganking and/or dueling. The ones without that great early ganking or CC out of those like Kindred and Kha have their playstyle around denying enemy JG and scale/snowball really well. It's all about their power budget. Nidalee and Graves are two champs with a good combination of both. I think that what Nidalee gives up is having to manage her difficulty and how she falls off in teamfights. Not completely sure about Graves. Maybe bad ganking and not clearing *as* fast as the other power farmers. His first full clear is like 3:13 when optimized but then he starts speeding up after he gets dirk on second rotation and can match other hard farmers after that. His clear is really hard to pull off though because you need to make sure your autos hit all monsters and apply the burn which is especially hard on raptors.
No jungler can 2:40 leashless full clear, fastest is Dr. Mundo blue start at 2:56. Even Trundle with literally 0 AoE has a 3:19 leashless full clear when optimized (th-cam.com/video/ps8qcj3Rc1Y/w-d-xo.html) so I'd say that for close to every jungler that isn't super off meta with a leash should be able to full clear within at least 3:30 if they are mechanically executing properly.
Rengar actually has one of the fastest clear speeds in the game, it's at 3:07 (th-cam.com/video/BgbEbfWazGY/w-d-xo.html) which is only 2 seconds slower than Diana.
The balance between power farm/weak early and bad farm/strong early junglers is pretty good right now. Out of the top 15 highest WR junglers in plat+, 7 are early dueling/ganking (kha ww kindred nunu reksai elise voli), 6 are power farm or lvl 6 reliant (noct morde bel udyr zac fiddle), and then two are more or less balanced between the two (skarner and olaf).
I think that if you want to add new viable champs to the role and remove clear speed as a huge gatekeep, adding on bonus dmg to monsters on their AoE or short CD ability should do work. But then again, Darius and Mundo got that treatment with both having 3:01 clears or faster (literally as fast as fiddle) but are still never picked. It still did make champs like Talon, Ekko, Morde, and Mao'Kai viable now though.
I personally dislike losing double camping and having shortened leash ranges as a Fiddle, Zac, and Kayn player since it was such a huge area for skill expression. A fiddle that learns the double camp spots for blue-wolves, blue-gromp, red-raptors, and the red-krugs transition should be rewarded. A kayn that learns the wolves -> blue transition with using E through the wall and finishing both camps off with Q should also be rewarded. Instead, he now just autos and Ws the camps, leaving the only skill expression for optimizing clears transitioning between camps. The blue-gromp thing was most likely an oversight from Riot and will probably be patched out imo. I highly doubt that they'd leave it in.
@@SK-df1iw I dont think there should be no difference in clear time between jungle styles. I just think its healthier for the game if the gap isnt so broad to where some champs just straight up lose borderline all viability outside of one tricks for high elo. And im not saying you cant pick these chanmps and do well its just the fact that by picking them you have to work so much harder than the floor of other junglers. And yea i get it losing double camping sucks for experienced jungle mains, but I think taking skill expression out of micro so junglers can focus more on macro is a good direction to go in for the average player. One of the reasons jungle is so debilitating for new players is because its one of the most micro and macro oriented roles in the game and players cant process all of that when starting out. I get high elo players are going to be unhappy with the jungle changes, its straight up just a huge nerf to skill expression, but high elo is a miniscule part of the playerbase and riot will always prioritize changes for the majority (low elo) and pro over any changes that benifit the top 1%. IMO its why its taken so many years to see any meaningful change for high elo trolls/boosters/wintraders. Riot is only now opening up a mini tribunal for high elo, and the voyboy video was what 3 years ago now? High elo is just really low priority for Riot, IMO.
Dude I 100% agree with this. Every season it’s the jungle role that changes the most. Yes we hate them for being bad but how can u get good at a role that changes it’s dynamics every year whereas laning has stayed the same since the brink of time?
THANK YOU. It’s hard to master a role that keeps changing constantly. Even the slightest jungle spawn changes can completely change your pathing. Point in case, scuttle spawns later? Full clear instead of skipping gromp or krugs is a big difference.
i been splaying since season 4/5 and the first role i latched onto that i enjoyed was jungle. I play jg until season 9/2020 Riot kept changing jg and constantly nerfing it that i just gave up on that role. Why play a role where every season riot changes and it never for the better
Being good at the Game
@@phoenixflamegames1 so many excuses what a noob you are sad man
@@EnjoyDDMusic I just think you have a personal problem with me mate. Come with arguments before you start to flame me.
I think that most of the problems in the jungle comes from two factors: visual clarity and the lack of a good tutorial. Visual clarity because we did not have, as now, a clear visual indicator of the leash range. The tutorial explains too little for how complex the game is. There is no need of decreasing the level of complexity, but making the game more accessible. The visual indicators, recommended jungle clearing paths, how they changed the resets, etc. Making all that information available within the game and not having to search on TH-cam for a guide or Wikilol.
And then they make constant changes to Jungle, it needs some stability for once. If not new players will be terrified to learn such a complex role to have to relearn it in the following season. Its complexity stems more in the decision-making than the clearing itself and that is something Riot should focus on: the objective voting, the new indicators with new strategies like baiting, etc. I think they should further emphasise that communication aspect of the game to make it a little bit easier both for the jungler, to understand what to do best, and the allies to understand why their jungler is taking that decision.
Completely agree they should work on pets not to make the jungle clearing a bit unpredictable when finishing the camps. And let's see if they did not introduce the new pets to sell something similar to little legends.
Lack of a tutorial is a huge one. League suffers immensely from this.
Pets are 100% unnecessary and a bait for paying more money for cosmetics.
League in general suffers from not explaining anything and the things it does explain is done terribly.
Seriously, some of my friends still use the in-client champion showcase and I just feel pain from whenever I hear it.
I don't want to be rude but WR has jungle in bot matches, if riot add that to the PC bot match it will be a good way to teach about jungle
I agree 100% here. We need the visual improvement and the clarity. There is no need to change as much
I think the big problem they have is that there isn't a good way to practice the jungle because you have so many responsibilities and things to keep track of. If you want to load in the practice tool and practice landing skill shots on a support, you can do that. You can practice CSing against a bot. You can't practice the babysitting aspect of jungling, however, so the only way to get better at it is to go into a normal game and get flamed. They need to make JG easier because, as someone who never queues up for it, you can definitely get autofilled into it, and that basically ruins the game for the other 4 people on your team.
But like... laning is harder than Jungle regardless? And you actually CAN practice pathing, timers and clears.
@@mihal1570 The "practice" isn't really applicable though because you're not getting counter jungled, you're not having to gank/counter gank, you're not being invaded, and you're not having to babysit losing lanes. It's like if they got rid of adding bot opponents to the Practice Tool and said you could get all the practice you need for laning just by CSing alone.
@@DustySquitoNM the same thing applies to "practicing" laning in practice tool, it isn't really applicable because you're not getting poked by a lane opponent with a brain, you're not having to ward against ganks/roams, and you're not having to fight for prio in your own lane to be able to roam yourself.
i will admit that having a bot to practice against is better than literally nothing, like what junglers get, but it still isn't nearly good enough to use as practice. until the century comes where riot makes bots that understand the fundamentals, or league becomes more casual-friendly, both newer junglers and laners are just stuck learning the hard way, hoping that they learn the basics before their account gets high enough MMR to encounter flamers and other toxic nasties.
@@DustySquitoNM the point is to be able to do a full clear perfectly. Load up practice tool and wait for the camps. Your goal time is 1 minute 45 seconds. Can you do a full clear in that time? You can reset the camps and try again, just reset and note the time you start your first camp. It's the same with laning, can you get every CS without anyone harassing you?
It's like a pitching machine, sure it won't throw any curve balls but let's you practice the basics. I still can't do a 3:15 Zac full clear, but it is possible, so I have to make do with a faster 5 camp in order to make it to crab. How do I know that? Practice tool. How do I know I average 10/12 for the first two waves as mid Lux? Practice tool. It's not about being a perfect simulator to practice in, it's about isolating one action and practicing that
People need to learn how to use the practice tool. It's literally just about getting your clicks right. Like a pitching machine. If you can't get perfect CS WITHOUT anyone harassing you, how do you expect to get perfect CS with incoming damage? Same with the jungle, can you do a 1 min 45s clear when you're not worried about being invaded? If you can't do it without an opponent you're still figuring it out and it's going to be harder when you add the danger
Riot: "nobody wants to play jungle so lets change it"
*changes jungle*
Riot: "why are less people playing jungle???!!!!"
rinse repeat twice a year every year
While failing Year after year to address the ACTUAL BIG PROBLEM: Toxicity against Junglers.
Every time.
@@snowbiden5472 ultimately you can't control people and how they treat others so there just needs to be an incentive to make the role worth what you have to deal with. That's the real nerf to junglers this season; they removed significant ways in which a jungler can impact the game making the role far less worth playing
@@kraze1982 Are you crazy haha. Jungle got buffed so hard this season, while already being the most broken role by far in season 12. There is a reason 14 of the top 20 challenger players are junglers, and believe me, it will be 18 out of 20 once the new season actually starts
@@hawk-nightcore5577 you missed the point bud. I'm glad in the top 1% of the top 1% of players that 70 percent of challenger players are junglers; however the point was that where 82% of the players actually play in bronze-gold, more than 50% of junglers are autofilled because people don't want to play the role
Honestly I just wish Riot didn't have such powerful neutral objectives. To me the game hinges in jungle as well as bot lane too much because of how busted dragons and the soul are.
Or just remove the smite on objectives , smite fight is what make jungler get flamed , its 50/50 . without objectives this game would be a farming simulation and game length will be increased
hm? dragon is kinda weak rn they're too tanky, rift is where it's at homie
@@diamondfrieza5391 Then everyone starts to complain about snowball again.
I love how they don’t want to “dumb down” jungle but remove double clearing
Double clearing takes 3 games max to learn if you don't want to spend 10 minutes in practice tool, jg is way harder to start learning than to master, once you know the concept of it your main hold back will be macro/micro skill just like in lanes, that's way they are focusing on things to make learning the basics of jg more accessible and intuitive.
I only played wildrift, jungle gets a ton of hate there as well and is the least played role, you get auto filled regardless of what you queue for, but never when you queue jungle. The biggest, number one issue I have with the role is how fast my team takes away my agency because they are losing lane. Having teammates take all your farm because they die to obvious ganks and then blame and troll you is the worst part of the role by far. I don’t care about the chat, that can be muted and ignored, someone actively trying to stop you from farming can’t.
The next huge issue is smite, in another moba called Vainglory there was no smite equivalent. Someone needed to pick a champ with a powerful burst ability and save it for objectives which takes the responsibility of objectives and moves it onto the team. I get flamed all the time for missing smite, after I get hard focused and killed before objective is in smite range, no peel, no vision and 5 players focusing me and an objective at mystery health.
I love playing jg on PC because of the unique champions but I'm atrocious at jg on WR (prolly bad on PC too but it's more fun)
HE FINALLY POSTED!
You were first!
Riot treat JG like player. "Anything bad happen in my game blame it on JG"
When riot does a big change
Exil: *stonks*
BIG stonks
The second I heard that leash ranges were getting lowered I thought Riot seriously contradicted themselves in what they wanted to accomplish with these jungle changes. How is taking the ability to farm 2 camps, at the same time, not taking away Jungle mastery?
I'm still looking forward to Preseason this year. Rod of Ages is back babyyyyy
I loved the full coverage, but I think the obvious answer to reducing leash range is that forcing single camps and basically disallowing double camp clearing will reduce the difference between newer junglers and good junglers. I'm a jungler, so I'm not saying I enjoy it, just saying that seems to be the only reason that comes to mind almost immediately
I'm a real boomer when it's about jungle changes. I remember when it was season 7 when Riot first wanted a Gank meta.
Now when they wanted junglers to permanently gank, they regretted it.
Then when they wanted junglers to just farm for a while and it also backfired.
I think a large reason for this as well is that players got a lot better at clearing efficiency.
You are absolutely right that early league was MUCH harder to clear the jungle. Seriously, players today have no idea. It was literally impossible to do a full 5 camp clear without dying (there was no camp where gromp / wight was)
However, clearing just 2 camps got you level 3, you would just go buff to buff. If players were better at the game back then, they could have been smarter around vision and cleared better so that they could gank more often, but the game was much slower overall. Slower rotations, slower jungle clear, slower laning mechanics - all of that.
when i started playing jungle it was for being so hard in that time clear jungle, combat enemy jungler, and gank, you could do you game, what you wanted and nothing bad happened, you just needed learn to play champs in the jungle not like now is all the same, clear buff, clear 1 camp and go to clear the other buff to get 1 level bc if you do slow the camps, they are not worth anyomore to clear except for the level up. I loved when the responsability of jungler was not that big, and drakes were important but not like we have nowdays.
@@Exil22 Only ogs remember when the midlaner had to leash the jungler aswell xD.
for sure would love a speed clearing mini game. not a boring tutorial that gives you the mechanics in the most basic way but one that teaches you advanced optimized concepts with leaderboards. like valorant and that aiming game
If Jungle didn't get blamed for everything that went wrong in the game more people would play it.
Can we just call the "new" pets Bulbasaur, Charmander and Squirtle?
I feel like if riot was to keep double camping/old ranges in addition to all the new jg changes it would actually be a really pleasant update. The barrier entry is still lowered which is their goal and experienced junglers can still showcase mastery.
Amazing video, you did a really great job at summarizing the mechanics and shortcomings of live vs preseason jungle, and it looks like this can be improved upon alot, without making the role trash, i've never jungle because i legit don't feel too great about my mechanics, but hopefully this is good.
I agree with you the jungle path suggestions. Im a jungle main and I have a tendency to try to communicate with my team to determine my path and gank strategies. I would hate to play another role for fun and feel like my jungler wont do anything other than follow the “suggested” path. I also don’t want my minimap cluttered with a path that I may or may not follow. I hope that we are at least given the ability to toggle that on or off - could be nice when learning a new jungler, but annoying when you’re on your main
It's not even really useful on new champions since they dumb down clears so much with pets, that little differences from champion to champion like skipping raptors with Warwick or Trundle are no longer a thing
I get that when you're used to playing jungle, but to gather new players to the role I believe these changes will be effective. I'm excited to try, and I literally dodge every single jg autofill I get nowadays
@@DerikHendric L
The thing I hate most about Jungle is your team ignores you, except to blame you when they get ganked, or the enemy takes an objective. Meanwhile the enemy jungle is 6/0 and killing you and taking your camps. Your team falls slightly behind and takes your camps. Now you're 4 levels behind, the enemy has 2 drags, rift and you have 40 cs.
Or you power farm and your team goes 2/12 by 6 minutes.
The game can snowball too easily in the enemy favor because your team either doesn't care or actively takes your camps and flames you
@@diamondfrieza5391 That's the worst, I often ping dragon and baron now and then, I've gotten good at pinging when the enemy are taking it, and then my team just sits in lane farming, enemy takes dragon, comes bot for a double and then I'm blamed
Like bro, even lee sin could have seen that coming
What I like about the jungle in Smite,which is in part due to larger map size, is the sheer number of camps. That and camps placed in neutral locations. you can immediately go back to farm after a failed gank or farm your way towards a lane. Its not as big of a time commitment and lowers barrier to entry.
Riot's obsession with making changes, especially in the Jungle, is reaching a point where anything they do will screw it up further.
This is a very real concern, you are right.
It's the fear of the game getting stagnant. I wish riot would just stop making changes for a year, let people truly learn the game and let the meta sink instead of changing it patch after patch
@@spiclord1461 The fact LoL patches every 2 weeks is the best thing about it... It sounds bizzare, but it's so true you don't even realize.
@@spiclord1461 You see stuff like that in competitive pokemon where the meta changes without the influence of the developers. Advantageous habits are formed and counter plays are discovered. With as many variables as something like Pokemon or League the cycle can be almost infinite, but we never see that because every patch we only scratch the surface and are too quick to decide what is good and what is not. Given the correct circumstances (meta) many picks will rise and fall from obscurity, and this is impeded by Riot’s inability to let things settle.
People were having mental breakdowns because this season effectively only had a new drake as a change.
I have always struggled to learn jungle and the fact that they keep changing the role is not making it any easier for me. I usually play Ivern whenever I'm forced to play the role since he has a very different way of clearing camps that synergizes with me better and he's kind of like a "support Jungler" which I like. I'm too small brained to be any good at jungle lol
I think that ultimately they're trying to take away the micro mechanics and some of the front loaded mental work you have to do to jungle which will allow new jungle players to think more about some of the macro aspects of the game
12:00 after I hear you talk about adapting in the jungle, it got me thinking. With the item rework Riot gave us less options to make crazy item combinations. Some items are now mythics, some share a unique group, so you can't purchase any item combination anymore. Sure, some old items were really bad. I feel like Riot removed some skill expression with the item rework, and now we see it again with these jungle avatars. Riot has to realize that creativity keeps the game alive, it is not killing it
That is so true.
They gradually remove(d) many options for creativity in this game
We all love a new video from Exil ❤️
As someone who has only ever played jungle (6 seasons, yes i'm a psycho) and never put in a reasonable amount of time into learning the intricacies of laning I have found that I enjoy learning how the game works as a whole rather than learning how to beat someone in a 1v1 or 2v2. I feel like most people that play league of legends are just looking to get kills and make flashy plays, but don't actually want to put in the time to understand why you do certain things at certain times. Your brain needs to be a constant sponge while also not getting tilted bc of ur teammates. Jungle just isn't rewarding enough to a casual player looking to have fun since there is such a big emphasis on experience. Nothing they do will ever solve this problem and they just need to normalize a system instead of changing it every 1-2 years.
The thing is the role needs to be changed, since it's the strongest by far. It's never in a good place, and no amount of changing will actually make it healthy for the game.
THIS COMMENT NEEDS MORE UPVOTES
"Nothing they do will ever solve this problem and they just need to normalize a system instead of changing it every 1-2 years."
Hey, with the companion trailing after us with a certain delay : could it give vision of us to the ennemy ?
How is it reacting when flashing to a bush and not to drake pit from blue side : will it flash with us or walk towards bush indicating the imposture ?
Thanks so much that camps don't reset anymore so hard. I mean i play sion jungle and up to this day you pretty much still have a bug with randomly losing a focus of blue/read after full Q, and after hitting another full Q boom reset.
I really hope you do a follow up video later in season 13. I feel like it's too soon to judge the changes, especially without seeing what the jungle meta becomes. A lot of the changes aren't bad but will take time to get used to.
I definitely will do a follow up and I hope they work out the kinks. The pet sucks.
@@Exil22 If they just keep the Smite changes but remove the pet and replace it's damage with a consistent burn that would be great. If they also return the leash ranges to what they were I think everyone would find the other changes, like the patience change, to be positive.
@@Exil22 Good to hear.
Tanks
The blue pet is OP for Rengar, his jump scales with MS. It'll be his go-to every game.
Yes but consider, red is a second ignite. So his kill potential scales even harder late game, which makes any attempt at building defensively that much more useless.
@@slademmxii8759 he deletes you either way unless he's bruiser in which case he deletes you like 3 seconds slower while muscling through any damage or cc he takes
@@slademmxii8759 Don't underestimate the power of movement speed. It is the most broken stat in League.
3:25 That's a very easy fix. Just revert the jungle back to how it was in season 9, where skiping camps to gank more was actually rewarding and didn't made you fall 2 levels behind a power farmer for the rest of the game. In addition, league is a PvP game. I don't want skill to be measured by your ability to PvE which is basically repetition of the same thing. What makes league fun isn't how good you are at killing gromp. Gromp is not going to outplay you. Its about ganks, counter-ganks, invades, reading and tracking the enemy jungler. Accomodating gold and xp away from conventional camps and into crab is the best way to do it because it forces PvP. And it is the logical decision because the riskier camp should give the biggest reward.
I get that the idea behind giving junglers as much sustain as they do is to lower the barrier of entry and I totally support that. As long as it don't compromises the competitive integrity of the game. Right now, pretty much every jungler can do a full clear and still be full on resources. This has two implications: first, it is MUCH harder to invade for kills. Because it takes longer to kill a full health enemy jungler than a half health, it means the enemy team has more time to collapse on you. And that's not even mentioning smite's heal. Second: junglers don't have to choose between ganking and farming because they can do both. Skiping camps to preserve health is not a factor anymore. Look at Hecarim, for example: he has both very fast clears and very good ganks. However, his sustain was poor, even with his W, and he was a bad duelist, so he was among the easiest champions to invade in the game. What happens when you give all junglers infinite sustain? You fix his sustain weakness and makes junglers harder to invade at the same time. Fixing both his main weakness, Hecarim has became a balance nightmare where he is either top tier broken or his numbers are so low he's not worth using. Mana sustain too has became a problem, because AoE abilities tend to have a high mana cost. Spaming low cooldown abilities drain your mana as well. Usually those blazing fast clears use a lot of mana and contesting the blue buff was an effective way at contesting that power farming, but because not even Karthus needs blue buff to clear nowdays, that's another option taken away from early game junglers to be aggressive.
That point at around 7:30 is a prime example of how the jungle has changed to privilege power farming. A full 6 camp clear used to be a greedy play in the past. Now it has became the norm. Even the most aggressive junglers often do 4 or 5 camps before they get any action going. 3 camp into action has became, rather than the norm, something extremmely risky.
I don't like that kills and assists count as not even one treat and that you NEED camps to get the full value of the pets. Again, too much encouragement for power farming.
Crab getting pushed back again is another change I don't agree on. Ideally, give it enough value so it can feel like an objective again and get it to spawn at around roughly the third or forth camp. That way if you want to full clear, you're gonna lose something big for it and there's no level advantage for fast clearing junglers.
Since season 10, why would you bother with Lee Sin or Elise when you can play the likes of Yi and Fiddlesticks and have the same reward at a far lower risk? Want to fix the jungle? And it is in dire need of fixing, revert the game back to season 9. Start from there. And stop giving farming junglers so many privileges. I personaly don't think the jungle "changes too much", in recent years, it has been pretty stale, actually. I'm looking forward for the shake up. Not because those changes are genius or anything, but because I doubt it can get worse than it is currently.
honestly as as JG main this changes makes me think of 2 things
1. playing healthy nidalee and perma invade because enemy will die on camps
2. play top and fuck jungle
I want a lane pet now. I don't play jung enough to be even remotely good at it so thanks for breaking it down like this, I like the pet as an art asset but from what you showed it's a messy mechanical asset. I'd just tweek the pet to last hit/execute camps for simplicity. Tying the pets "attacks" to your champ's stats would also be nice while making it 'echo' your spells and autos would clear up when it would attack
Supports already had Pet's, they more none as "adc"
as a very non-jungle person who's wanted to try picking up the role for a while now but felt like it was too intimidating, the shortened leash ranges are actually the thing that I was most excited for. After seeing your explanation I'm not quite as hyped for it, but knowing that most jungle champs COULD double-camp, but not having (what felt like) the *extremely* intricate high-level knowledge required to pull it off was one of the biggest things keeping me away from the role.
Now that everyone (except, apparently, Fiddlesticks) is doing one camp at a time, it means that if I have a suboptimal clear speed, it isn't so many lightyears behind my opponent that there's zero chance of me doing anything about it through other macro avenues. The gap between a 'perfect' clear and a 'beginner' clear is decreased enough that it doesn't feel like the ONLY THING that matters when it comes to jungling, without being removed entirely.
Again, since I'm not a jungler, there's definitely a ton of knock-on effects and many of the things you described in this video that I never would have thought of, so there's likely way more far-reaching consequences to these changes, but this change is aimed at non-junglers and making them more comfortable playing the role. As one of those players who has avoided jungle for the longest time because it felt so scary, I can at least say this change succeeded in that regard. I'm actually excited to practice jungle and get more comfortable in the role once preseason hits.
so u happy because now there's no clear differents between champs? So u dont need to learn anything about clears? Its so stupid and nobrain
I'm excited for you to try out jungle! I hope you have fun with it. It's a little taxing once in a while when people are unreasonable in lane but for the most part I adore jungling.
My only tip is, focus on pathing and where your camps are spawning. Never get pressured by assist pings if it's out of the way, that's the biggest habit you have to get over. Initial clears aren't that big a deal in low elo tbf
In WR they have the leash ranges around each camp, I don't know why PC doesn't
Garbage players being happy to have their hands held and things dumbed down to them instead of improving.
Your average League player.
Honestly the way I would change it would be for the pet to not do much dmg but, apply the current burn. It makes it so all jglers will have splash dmg but, now we keep the burn effect that we currently have so it doesnt hurt everyone that currently plays jg. Also I think they should keep the smite how it works now. And have flat dmg so that it doesnt hard favor full clear jglers.
I remember one specific feature of World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor.
In order to use the "Party Finder", you had to play a classificatory game in one of the roles, Tank, Healer (support) and DPS (damage dealer).
You got points according to your performance and you were placed in bronze, silver or gold brackets.
According to your knowledge of your role, you were placed together with players of the same bracket.
If you are a very good tank, you were picked to play with very good healers and very good damage carries.
Riot could think of the same strategy, place milestones for each of the roles using bots/AI. The AI would be specific for each class of champions.
Top, Mid and ADC would have to know how and when to execute freeze, slow push and shove, according to special maps, dummies and bot champs.
Tanks, Casters and other support would have to know when and how to cc, shield and/or heal. The same strategy for Junglers.
Everyone would have to reach milestones using minimap, vision and other metrics, according to their role (don't expect an ADC to get 3 vision per minute)
Then, every player would get to join a party with same level piers and matched against same level piers.
This would be true until a certain ELO, for example, until gold. After that the screening wouldn't be necessary.
I agree with almost every point, except for the leash range changes. I don't think the loss of that small part of role mastery outweighs the benefits of smoothing the learning curve for new players and lowering the gap between fast and slow clearing junglers.
That being said, I too am very worried about smite upgrades no longer being tied to usage, but to clear speed. It's inevitably going to disproportionately reward fast clearing junglers and make the meta much more selective, completely undoing the few benefits of the leash range changes.
The pet mechanic in general feels like a needless addition that's probably going to cause some issues, since I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually figured out an unintuitive way to maximize dps that most casual and new players will remain totally unaware of. If Riot had simply made it so the jungle item dot also applied in a small area around the main target every few seconds, they could have achieved better results with far less work.
Having one role decide major map objectives isn't a good idea. So what do they do? They decide to buff Smite so it's even more reliant on having a jungle there to secure it!
This and jungle impact usually being the main deciding factor on who wins lane (and this goes for all 3 lanes) makes them such a crucial role to be good at.
But then Riot decides to change them every other season because they don't see the flaws in a permanently roaming role that is always on-par (or ahead) of lanes on XP, especially in the early game. Jungle impact should be lowered, not increased.
The greatest problem with the changes are that fundamentaly, nothing changes, the jungle keep having the same problems before these changes, and some are actually worse than before. They want jungle to be more accessible yet because clears are less healthy, the pool of viable junglers (IE : who doesn't need to back after 3 camps or yolo a gank with 30% hp) is shrinking, and while kiting was kind of a skill based workaround, leash range is reduced. The jungle pets changes nothing and is just a budget version of the burn, camps are still very counterintuitive with varying gold and xp rewards and weird timers (2min15s ? how am i supposed to remember that without a third party app ?), fight for crabs are still the epitome of early game coinflip despite nerfs. And when i say that nothing changes, i could add that like every season, because of how precise the role is, these little changes will tweak the way we play and benefit a category of junglers different from now, which kinda force jungler mains to relearn the role all over again .... again. For a jungle main like me that often stop playing the game for long periods of time (well, now only playing with friends because i'm way more hooked by Dota2), readapting to jungling is atrocious, and i can't wait to NOT play next season.
I know i'm gonna get booed for this, but i think jungle should be inspired by the way Dota handle its jungle (although they don't have junglers) which is now more interactive (with little easy to understand mechanics for each camps) and intuitive (every empty camps respawn at every minute mark), and i beleive there's a general misconception about dota being an older designed game, trust me, they are modern features in this game league player wouldn't even dare to dream about.
I jungled for the first time today, and the ui updates were huge helps, of course ganking is something you look for opportunity/matchups for. Overall huge ups for the UI I do think kiting shouldn’t have been changed. The pets are weird, but having general flow like to get started juggling, was nice, and I wanna continue trying it.
12:00 Tbf the three camp clear was very meta for early game junglers
Actually, as a Gold Player i am fan of leash range changes. Yeah ofc it was a skill espression feature but lets be honest- being good as an expression is one thing, being interesting is a different thing. For me what jungle needs is more scalling in all champions (for example via jungle item) in clearing speed. Make mid and lategame clear extremely fast for every jungler and let People do what they always want to do- fught other players not a camps. Ofc maybe riot will need to buff some champs, nerf the others, like with all big changes. But for me, the single biggest thing that drives players out of jungle is spending too much time in single Player Mode against AI in camps.
P.S. in gold i am Amumu main, so i always do Gromp and blue at the same time, because doing it separately would take ages, so i m prepared that unless riot will give amumu something like twice damage against single monsters on W and E he will be unplayable in jungle, but still, better fix this stupid mechanic and adjust champions, than to keep it.
I spent the first ten minutes of this video thinking to myself, "That is not at all how I play jungle." Then we actually got to see someone play the game instead of doing a rehearsed dance through the jungle with the camera zoomed all the way in and I felt very validated. I'm all for more players learning jungle, because I'm interested in players actually learning the game, not just optimizing micro. I'm not sure how you maintain the macro decision making skill required to be a remotely effective jungler, and appeal to new players and not intimidate them, but training new junglers to follow a quest marker through the jungle isn't how. There are way too many factors that need to be taken into account when you decide how you play your first 10 minutes and which camp has the next number on top of should never be one of them. I really hope that feature gets removed. Bad, bad idea. The pets might be okay, as long as they're consistent. If the idea is to make jungle camp clearing more predictable and consistent, those little dudes have to do the exact same thing, every time. If the pet ever paths the wrong way around the wall at level 2 and you get executed because you can no longer heal off of smite, oof. Please make this work. The off-meta junglers are like my absolute favorite part of League of Legends, but I need that sustain burst or most of my champ pool I jungled with last season simply won't work anymore.
I'm excited for Riot to try and bring on more junglers, but I'm really worried about some of these systems. I don't think it encourages a wider range of champions, quite the opposite.
Jungling is too nitpicky. It shouldn't be hard to clear the camps as a baseline, so you dont need to optimize anything to do well and just focus on roaming and macro play (that's what the role is afterall lol)
You are completely right in that ganking junglers like WW will be even less meta than they are now as everyone will be rushing to try and finish avatar smite. This is what I really hate. My playstyle as a ganker should not be compromised because of this avatar smite BS. Ganking very early will put you at a significant disadvantage in terms of feeding your pet and getting that 1200 damage smite, which puts you at a disadvantage in the long run as you will get outsmited on every objective if the enemy jungler just chooses to perma fullclear and invade camps. I enjoy 3 camp, 4 camp, 5 camp ganking with a level advantage in the early game. I do not enjoy braindead fullclearing. This change of making the jungle more accessible and farm-centric sounds good on paper but is actually terrible, as you said.
How about warning indicators when an enemy laner is pushed up and out of line, there’s so many different things they could have done
Jungle felt like the only role where you can only carry so much. I already got out of league, and even though I have my lingering wishes sometimes to play certain champs, the two times I've tried to play again it hasn't been worth it at all. I was mainly toplane towards the end of my time with league, but for a very long time jungle was my main role, and the amount of games I watched my team throw down the drain after I ganked them what felt like hundreds of times truly took a piece of my soul.
When I did eventually swap to toplane, I could never shake the urge that I should be fixing my team's lane for them.
So eventually I mained shen, and I saw great success for a while, he was fun, interesting, I could do everything I cared about in jungle without losing any in game effectiveness, and I started to carry almost all of my games.
But something felt wrong, I never liked Laning, pushing, pulling, freezing. All of it felt boring, like an empty tug of war with no meaning. And eventually in time I did find joy in freezing out my opponent, or finding a kill because of my knowledge of the wavestate. But it never felt as fun as jungling. Coming in from the shadows, shotgun in hand, ceegar (not) in mouth. And pulling off some sick play, or saving the team just when I needed to be there, or clutching a play to steal an objective or saving a teammate from a dive.
It just, didn't feel right without the jungle. But even when I tried to go back, I just didn't have the effectiveness I had playing Shen top, the ability to genuinely change the outcome of a lane, babysit our most definitely not an infant with a keyboard midlaner and keep them from throwing the game without the fear of falling behind.
It all just, wasn't there, I couldn't stop my teammates from dumping the game into the trash by going in on 1hp to "make a play" I just had to watch.
That's the key issue with jungle, for me, and probably alot of others. I've always tried to put my teammates ahead, I play support or tank in most games and I do my best to make sure my teammates are performing to their full potential, because one guy carrying just doesn't feel as good as a coordinated team. But when I can't save them from themselves, that's what I hate.
I tried Ivern Jungle clear in the pbe and there is a bug where everytime i hit a jungle camp with my Q or the dmg range of my E they start attacking you as ivern, i cant report the bug tho cause it says page not supported in your region so yeah i saw for the first time the executed announcement from a jungle camp to ivern cool :)
I can explain the pet issue, its an A.I. that is tightly following your move commands. If you kiting (so using an attack move) the pet's attack can cancel because you moved during its attack. If you stand still you actually increase the Pet DPS substantially. It actively punishes kiting of any kind currently. If you issue a move command you also can't really tell which direction the pet will walk. If it walks to the otherside of a camp rather than just attack because you kited you will lose damage. I hope this explains your frustration in a way that makes sense why you feel that way.
it gets so frustrating. im around since season 2, i lived through at least 7 jungle changes by now. how many lane changes was there? 2, when they added alcoves and moved brushes. havin to relearn it every season gets tedious
I'm pretty sure the reason they have prevented double camp clearing is because some champs can utilise it way better than others. This way, good jungle champs have their clear time decreased to better match slower jungle champs.
Amumu, for example, has no trouble killing two camps at the same time, but he struggles trying to leash the second camp because of a lack of ranged abilities (except Q which will pull you out of camp patience and can end up causing a reset).
Diana, on the other hand, has a long-ranged ability for leashing (Q) and has good AoE damage to clear it fast.
And as you said, clearing camps quickly isn't what makes a player good, it's their understanding of the current gamestate and being able to make good decisions, i.e. the macro.
some champions are better at things that other champions are bad that GAME DESIGN if they cant recogonize that. SMH.
SOME CHAMPIONS ARE ALLOWED TO DO THINGS THAT OTHER CHAMPIONS CANT AND *THAT'S OK*
I agree with much of what you said here. I'm less certain that the changes will give farming jungles a big buff though. I'll have to play it and see how it feels but as a Warwick main help with just the first clear alone is all you need to boost him significantly. Once you have tiamat his clear is fine and with a clear and gank you get that anyway. He'll if it was only slowing fast clear champs that would boost him up in power. Anyway, great vid dude.
I keep seeing people hate on the jungle changes but the only one that I see as bad is the leash range, that should be left the same. Outside of that it's just balance problems with things being overtuned.
The pets being added to replace chilling/challenging smite (and the outright removal of the latter) is really good for the game. Challenging smite was a terrible thing to have exist. On top of that, having a jungler randomly smite a camp mid fight and heal a shit ton was ridiculously annoying, so having the heal taken off smite is a blessing for anyone that isn't a jungle player. Having more variety in jungle effects is great because it means more champs can possibly come in and be viable, and gives you new ways to play the current champs.
Also, it seems like a lot of people forget what it was like as a new player. I have a friend who just started playing about 2 weeks ago, and it was HELL. Even with being able to warn him against certain bad habits, or how to build, it was still clear as day how awful an experience it was for him. When he tried getting into jungle especially, he had just about the worst experience he's ever had playing any game ever according to him. Firstly, the game doesn't give you smite at level 1, nor does it tell you you need it, so he solo-queued a game without smite and died 3 times to red buff (people also aren't told about leashing). Then, after getting it, he had no idea what to do besides slowly take some camps in whatever order he felt. No idea what scuttle crabs are, that gromp heals, when/how to gank, etc. etc. Having the jungle be made more beginner-friendly (and the game as a whole) is an absolute necessity, and I think a lot of these changes do a good job at that. Not having to worry about when you should smite as a new jungler and not losing out on any healing is really good for getting people to play the role and makes it slightly less hellish. Recommended clear paths are also a good step that don't take anything away from players that already know what they're doing. Pets just seem like an overall good addition.
Primal smite is just like thatvother smite ability from pathfinders knife when they were exparamenting with removing skirmishers saber and integrating trackers knife with stalkers blade. They then changed their mind and removed trackers knife.
The Camp clearing order seems fine to me, not like you said that it "could induce bad habits" but as a recommendation, just as the item recommendations are. I as an experienced player ignore them almost always and you learn to do so but I think it is good for new players so that they don´t have to care about "is this the best in this situation" as there are many other difficult things to keep into mind when beginning, that would just add to confusion and lostness.
I mean if they want to just add what third party softwares do like best clearing paths on minimap when enabled that’s fine. But I don’t see a need for the other changes, part of the fun is learning the skills to do thinks like clear efficiently
Watched this a couple of times and when clearing multiple target camps as Warwick one should bring a low armor target down to half health and switch autos between that and the big minion. For wolves q the main, for raptors q an undamaged mini to bring that to half, so you can continue bringing the main down to half, krugs are still dumb
I need a Tian in my team :D.
I loved Feral Flare etc., but back then there were different jungle items and options - now you only have these pets and all of them have the same mechanic: get your 40 stacks (or from 40 to 0 rather), meaning every jungler has to farm camps as much and fast as possible. I feel like this is a huge step backwards and thus in the wrong direction, as mentioned in the video.
I think their use of Warwick as the example was bad, but I think the idea is that reduced leashes tighten up the skill thresholds for camps. Removing double clearing is good, because it means champions don't have to be balanced around it; if X champ can double clear, but my noob ass can't pull it off, I'm extra gimped compared to any other situation of being new to a champion.
28:34 is probably my favourite jungle change lol
No longer do I have to feel like pressing alt f4 while doing my double camps in red xd
29:57 that's Bobqin from his bewitching LeBlanc video lmao
I played a bit of Ornn in jgl and got a good hang of it. Then item updates happened and before I realized it, I couldn't buy rejuvenation bead and smite because the bead price was doubled. That's just one niche change that people may overlook with an always changing game. It really sets apart the good and better players. I do love that the game is changing and they're trying though, albeit not everyone will be happy with w/e change may come
25:35 the only way ww could possibly have a better clear, like u said is if his E maybe had some sort of damage ontop of the taunt, even then I'm still not sure if that's possible
17:00 it also takes skill to ward cuz if the enemy saw where you placed a ward they can ping it and it becomes useless if the enemy is smart that is.
can fiddle still clear red raptors level 1? that was my favorite thing to starting as fiddle and I'm pretty sure not being able to do this should hurt his clear speed quite a bit, but I guess if starting blue side puts him with a fast clear speed at least they aren't gutting him
For new players, in Age of Empires II we have challenges, brief tutorials and practices for some concepts and mechanics on the game, from basics (make villagers, get food) to the real hard ones (perfect economy, know how to defend). They have a narrator giving you instructions. You get a medal (bronze, silver, or gold) depending of you performance.
Some years ago I thoght this will be implemented in LoL with the new tutorial (wave control, last hit under tower, mini-trades, jg paths, steal baron/dragon - challenges with pre-set scenarios where you can get medals). But I get dissapointed when I tried the tutorial.
Hey I heard that basically anyone can clear the jungle, s5 s6 and s7 jungle were the best and any champ could clear back than. Just up the xp so you can play more carry picks, you can adjust individual Champs like they did with zed talon to encourage or keep some out if you want to do that.
Timing the Wards OMFG please...
So often I just forget about the ward 20sec later xD
Thing I've noticed playing in gold as a low dia/high plat jungler (don't actually main jungle so no idea where I'd actually end up playing jungle only) is that clearing really isn't the difference between me and a gold jungler:
- If I just circle like you're supposed to the enemy (gold) jungler is usually totally capable of hitting 8cs/min or more (most of the time both junglers ended up with most cs) and I could barely get a lead in terms of cs and level (sometimes was even behind in cs/xp due to lane priority etc.) was sometimes even behind the first 6 clear camp speed (am not amazing at that on most champs)
sometimes even felt like I was not making any difference at all despite in theory being the clearly better player (I wasn't actually the better player here cause I barely did anything different to the other jungler)
- if I however invaded or somehow stirred up something unexpected I usually ended up at 8-10 cs/min and 2-3 levels ahead at least despite not really clearing any different
So even low elo junglers are totally capable of just circling through their jungle.. it's the adapting part they've difficulty with and those changes won't change that
also the fact that on elise e.g. it's actually wise to tank everything yourself and not kite jungle AT ALL (aside from when going to next camp) on first clear is quite frustrating to me (it's prolly like 30 secs faster to tank everything yourself and just go afk while clearing instead of kiting it and letting spiderlings tank)
i feel the leash range reduction to prevent double camp clearing makes since to me, you said it yourself a champ like karthus with a fast clear will always out clear ww, even when standing still, and i feel that issue is compounded by being able to clear to camps at once. (im not good so i could be wrong) but its a skill that cannot be utilized by most champs and only leads to the champs that can double clear efficiently being the objectively better choice. i feel it is in line with less mobs from krugs to ease the burden on champs with no aoe and scuddle not having the cc broken shield, it makes jng champs less reliant on certain aspects to have a viable clear.
if the problem was warwick really not being able to clear faster, they could have given his E like fear stacks(by using your Q or something similar to what kassadin does) that deal dmg 2-4 times every 1.5sec, ww raptors clear done, or give his E a passive that deals aoe dmg when autoattacking. Not like the best solution or anything but something.
2:59 lol i saw that on Bobqins channel trying out roa. Didnt know the hecarim was you
14:24 I said the same thing about recommended builds back in the day. Then I repeated it when the rune rework came out and copypasting builds from opgg became popular. Last time I said it was when the the big store rework was being tested in the pbe
Riot doesn't want people to think and improve. Having them autopilot yields more player retention because it removes potential barriers to entry for people that are easily overwhelmed by the game knowledge axis of the learning curve
My biggest concern is do Jg pets reveal my positioning to the enemy either through :
1. Overstepping when I hide in a brush
2. When I path ard wards but pets just casually walk outside of fog (because I saw their pet 1st b4 the jungler!!!)
3. (Shaco player here) can the enemy just follow the pet to track me when I stealth or see my pet and know ok shaco's here.
4. Shaco Ult, if the pet just follows the real shaco . . . . . . y i k e s
Recommended paths are for autofilled lower ranked players (like me) I don’t know what to clear and how to path so I go with 3rd part apps (like porofessor). If I didn’t have that I wouldn’t look at lane states and learn from this. The only time I play this role is if I’m autofilled so as a casual player I really won’t study what to do at what state I just want this game to be over so I can be autofilled protected next game.
I think the general consensus on the changes is that they should keep the leash indicators, keep the health numbers on the smaller camps, return the leash ranges to what they were, and probably get rid of the pets themselves but keep how they work. Just get rid of the actual pet on the screen (because it's honestly annoying) and instead of them attacking just have the same DPS dealt as a burn for more consistency.
maybe they pets should just float around you like aery?
I feel like removing leash ranges will have the same impact on player skill as if any minion dieing would give the laner the gold.
It's a horrible idea. We need skill expression
Double camp clearing isn't hard to pick up, but it's very heavily champ dependent on how effective it is. I believe this to be the reason why they scrapped it.
Dead ass the same thing that I told my friend is the same topic you brought up. His only thing is that the subreddit thinks that because you now have a cute pet there will be more people who would love to play jungle. I think a lot of people will be upset about leash range changes, but not to the indicator. I think the HP being shown is fantastic, though it is going to be harder not knowing if your pet will lower the camps HP enough, when you don't want it to, so that the enemy could easier smite it away. I used to really love when you had a reason to power farm in jungle and get your smite before the enemy so that you could guarantee objectives, to me that made jungle an important role that needed to do well in farm in order to win the game. The only way that I could see them changing that would be that maybe you could get an extra treat if you get a takedown within 3 seconds of damaging an enemy champion so that ganking is still viable without losing tempo to the enemy. If all people needed was the pet to make them want to play jungle then people are just very easily swayed. The jungle role was never meant for the light of heart, and support didnt used to be either. Good jungles and supports were hard to come by. No one wanted to play those roles because the game you played was so vastly different from that of your fellow teammates as support was generally the only one warding and jungle was the main one to make sure the team secured objectives. Now you have Jhin Varus and Kalista, maybe even Ezreal and Jinx sniping away objectives at crazy times and damage levels because smite is just laughable to their damage. I want jungle to feel powerful again in a different way, but not while sacrificing everything that jungle has always had going positive for it. I miss when you could smite camps for different effects, but no pet is going to make my life easier when my team flames me for not ganking their lane level 2.
I miss season 5 jungle, back when we had different buffs for different champs, like a stun on golems and a retaliation on gromp.
Jg pathing is static while lane states are dynamic. It’s simply impossible to lower the skill level without butchering the role or remove skill expression.
Yeah, I hate the shorter leash range, and I’m a WW main. I used to double clear on WW all the time w/ hydra. Double clearing was skill expression. It’s gone. Makes me sad. I DO like, however, that Tiamat isn’t a “required” buy thanks to jg pets.
the thing is - the barrier entry to jungle isn't really jungling though - it's ganking, pathing, knowing where to be at one time, when to invade, when to help push a wave, when to gank etc. Making clear easier doesnt fix this
It's a start, a lot of those things just come with time and experience. It's the same with every role, you don't learn the ins and outs of a role at the very beginning, they come with time. Mid lane functions the same, learning when to roam, how to roam, when to rotate, when to push, when to freeze, etc are all very essential skills for mastering mid. But when you first start mid, you start small and build your way up to learning these skills over time. Start by playing simple champs like Annie, farming, last hitting, getting used to the role, etc. Then expand your tool set with more and more experience.
Personally, I think if they just added this new camp reset thing, jungling would become better. Keeping the burn so that re-engages with the camp. Maybe shrinking the leash range was good so fiddlesticks can't do a triple camp clear, but all jungle really needs is a more forgiving reset mechanic.
As someone who's always been a reluctant autofill in the jungle, I never knew that camps granted more experience based on how many times you've cleared them. I thought it just scaled with player level or game time.
Yeah, a lot of nitpicky mechanics like that that ruins jungling for me.
I played the game for over 10 years and didn't knew it either, neither that the burn thing couldn't kill red/blue lmao
And Riot puts literally zero efford in explaining those kind of mechanics. It feels like you *need* to watch a tutorial or two to be able to play this role just because of those useless hidden mechanics and optimizations.
Riot should include a choice at the start for jungle on the type of clear you want. Fast lvl 3 into top/mid/bot gank, this would obviously change camp start location, full clear/cycling, any of those choices into optimal gank pathing (through tri bush, river bush, up through the lane.)
I'm the one in the fiddlesticks clip, pretty sure they've removed double camping for fiddle now too. At least that's what I've read on the fiddlemains discord, haven't had a chance to check it myself since I can't play rn
Audio is a little bit too quiet - I had to up the volume to almost twice I need for other youtube videos.
Nice analysis. While I did play some jungle back then (season 3-4 I think), lately I play once a couple of months, and do so as either adc or support (not much people wanting to play adc, I noticed, and while playing support is fun, on my elo - which dropped from gol to low silver/high bronze over the years - supports I enjoy just cannot carry the game if adc has a bad day; so I decided I will play one and get my role 90% of the time). I don't feel like the changes will impact my jungle performance much, but then if other players will have easier time beginning their adventure with the role, the game enjoyment will probably be better for the whole team.
Yeah sorry youtube processing got very weird with the audio. No idea why it's quieter than normal. I changed nothing about the editing. Lol.
btw do they finally allow u to take smite on a new acc? or do u still need to be lvl 10?
Honestly I think Riot is wrong about why jungle is the least played role, it has nothing to do with the gameplay, here's what I think:
- Toplaner got 1v1d? Your fault for not ganking
-You ping 5 times that you're on your way and your laners don't set up the gank.
-Enemy Nunu ganked lvl 2 while you were doing your gromp? Jungle Diff.
-Enemy jungler sneaked dragon even though the botlane is sitting on 4 trinkets and 1 pink and not using them and you pinged it? Spam ping the Jungler.
-Your 0/5 Yasuo is spam pinging you to gank his 5/0 ignite Illaoi? If you do, she gets a double, if you don't, he tilts and steal your Krugs.
-You're 80 gold away from finishing your item? Nope, the lanes will get your camps.
-You try to shove wave after a successful gank and they spam ping you thinking that you're trying to steal the minions, even though the laner got the kill.
-You try to help him shove the wave because it's a slowpush and dragon is 20 seconds away from spawning. You get spam pinged and they will steal your camps.
-Your Blue and raptors belong to your midlaner, gromp and krugs to your sidelanes, your red to your ADC. But if you're 2 levels below your enemy jungler is jungle diff.
-You ping and even type in chat that the enemy jungler is in the area. Your team dies to gank anyway.
-The enemy jungler just ganked mid and is pathing towards bot. What your botlane do? Full push without wards, die to gank and spam ping you.
-Your bot lane dies while you were ganking top? They spam ping you.
-You miss a smite? GG ff report jungle.
-Your team tries to force dragon/baron for no reason? You're forced to go with the call, because you have the smite.
-You ask your team to ward river/your jungle entrance because it's an enemy Shaco? Hahah no gl.
-World Hunger? GG jungle diff.
-Everything wrong that happens in the game is your fault.
-No one likes being blamed, raged, flamed and griefed just because they exist and feel powerless because all your lanes are losing without the enemy jungler even ganking.
You can see how much challenger players mald playing jungle in low elo, just search it up.
I was able to double-camp clear with Azir jungle. Yes, I'm being completely serious: Azir jungle. Azungle, if you will.
Finally, I can play my main in all 5 roles.
make the effect of the jungle buddies work more like the standard burn BUT effect the entire camp as you would auto the first target AND change scaling to make it champ dependent (like characters with really showing problems in jungle clear) and change blue buddy to something either adding like a 2% omni against champs or something of that effect then imo this system would be perfect for what they wanted in the jungle! oh yea and fix the problem with blue and gromp because I've seen heim and shaco do the simlar tactics as fiddle to the same effect lol (I say keep the leash ranges the same because that would set a meta in stone for aoe abusers :/)
The biggest problem with jungling is one Riot can't really fix, the fact that in the end people see you as their main advantage since you're meant to roam the entire map helping *every* lane, if they int they often just blame it on jungle diff when you couldn't do much if anything to prevent them from making the decisions that got them killed
This wolf thing is just like the sated blade thing, the yellow / red blue.... jungle blade. Sated Devourer.
I wish they would make jungle an auto fill protection, so when I am tired of it, I am protected. I main jungle but sometimes I want a break.
Pr make a mode that shows a 'ghost' you. and you can see how you farm side by side.