Note - This video didn't mention Cho'Gath because I had him in the voice over and the script, but then that one section of the audio file corrupted :( I didn't notice until like 1 hour before the video needed to be up so I had to edit it out. F in the chat for Cho Also someone said I didn't mention Garen W and you're right, oops. That one is kinda boring though :p
wish riot thought more about line of taking into account the power budgets from items, dragon buffs, and other way champs can be strong, while yuumi (the champ that breaks all these budgets) exists
I talked about infinite scaling in one of my videos and how I feel like it's better designed in the form of thresholds like Bard and Kindred. Glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment!
@@Exil22 every 100 stacks nasus gets some more lifesteal in his passive. I like that idea and nobody can convince me that its broken or something idk Edit: apparently it wasn't obvious enough for the two reddit challengers: this is a joke. Nasus has by far the healthiest infinite stacking ability in the game.
@@Pincsi01 well given that, stacking and healing isn't needed at all, yeah? I mean... Kindred doesn't need AS on her Q, she naturally gets more AS with the items she builds. Sion doesn't need HP in his passive, he naturally gets tanker with the items he builds. Akshan doesn't need any of his five passives, he naturally gets a shield, more damage, movement speed and attack speed with he items he builds. Like i already said, no one can convince me that it would be broken or something
Honestly, what you describe at the end, with no items and just levels and evolving abilities really reminded me of Heroes of the Storm. Albeit that snowball there was naturally a bit harder to do as you snowball the whole team and not a single champ becoming unstoppable. Also i don't remember any specific stack mechanic but it would fit there i suppose.
Exactly, there's lots of talents and innate abilities in Heroes of the Storm that can have finite or infinite stacking that reward players with additional effects, extra damage, extra mana and other resources or even new abilities getting unlocked (like Jaina getting Ice Block as a defensive ability if she completes her dealing damage with her combos quest). The most notable of them is probably Butcher who gets meat to collect from the ground if he is being near enemy units when they die and he becomes a monster if he gains a certain amount of meat but he's also useless late game if he can't gather enough meat - he is probably one of the closest heroes to a snowball champion. I also like how generally the stacks for the most powerful bonuses can be partially or totally lost on death so you'd have to do it all over again, but it's usually worth the effort. It works really well with the lack of items because you can design these crazy ability and talents quests without breaking the balance. These stacks are so important that the game notifies the other players when you complete a quest or reached maximum stacks, even if you can lose those stacks on death later on, just like it displays the kills.
@@dankmemes8254 Except that part is kinda terrible despite having to prioritize gank and objectives at the same time,i wonder if two jg roles are added it would be an interesting matchup. Oh wait…
Sona doesn't have infinite scaling. After reaching max stacks each time you get a stack it reduces the current cooldown of your ultamite by 1.5 seconds. It doesn't permanently reduce the cooldown of her ultimate. The text you show is worded that way but in game it's worded differently to show what it actually does.
That's what I thought so too. It'd be extremely OP if stacking as little as 70 times after the initial 120 stacks would reduce the ult total CD by 100 seconds, which would mean 0 CD on ult. It's extremely weird someone would read that the passive would reduce the total CD instead of reducing the remaining CD.
Heroes of the storm is a moba that has mechanics like you're describing. No items but you get mutually exclusive talents as you level up, some of which are 'quests' that typically give benefits at x-number of stacks and are usually capped but some stack infinitely For example: KTZ gets a quest as part of his trait (passive). But at level 1 he can choose which basic ability gets augmented once he has all 30 stacks (gained by landing his e), he also gain an ice spire at 15 stacks which he can use to extend his e range kinda like zed's shadows They even added 'Gambits' recently, a quest that gives you a bunch of stacks up front but every death reduces the bonus until it's gone. imagine dark seal giving 5 stacks to start with that are tracked independantly They come in many shapes and sizes but unless items and runes are going away they may not fit well in league outside of the few curated ones
@@adastial2104 dota 2 is the best moba out of there but God it's way harder than anything else Tbh I think right now dota isnt even a moba anymore, It is an action RTS
@@dinduslayer Having swung back and forth for the sake of variety I'd say both games have their own merits but lol's issues do make it less fun to get in to, most notably needing to learn the bare minimum of 150+ champs and a shop full of items. Edit: also runes which are just dumb imo
35:16 That is exactly like Heroes of the Storm works. No items, no runes. Just upgrade traits and abilities on level up, where some upgrades are "quests" that you have to complete to get the full benefit/effect, i.e. "hit 20 Qs to get 2 charges".
@@biggiecheese2004 as someone who has over 300k points on Kindred and has played them since release I can assure you with 100% certainty that wether they are broken or trash tier does not really matter as much as the team you're paired with. Their insane mobility allows for some easy counter-jungling, which in turn allows you to fetch extra stacks... The problem is that if you're caught and your team isn't there to cover your ass, you might literally die to a gust of wind once any laner rotates to your position if you can't get out in time.
I put in hundreds of hours into each video to try and make each one at least somewhat worth your guys time. Sorry that it takes a while, hope it's worth it. Thanks for the kind words
@@Exil22 it's definitely worth it. There are a lot of league related videos on TH-cam but yours are some of the rare ones that are timeless. Love your vids and keep going. We appreciate your Videos and the effort you put into them.
I was really sad when they reworked Viktor as everyone thought he was weak but i was nuking people with him, his burst with E max was beyond insane, and you only had to land it once. was crazy how bursty he was. Not a fan of his more damage over time style they changed him too. man he was so great on release people just built him wrong cause of the champ spotlight saying evolve e and got for a more tanky ap build. You went burst damage and you were godly
I hard climbed season 8 with Viktor using the lich ludens burst combo. You weren't countered by assassins after a few items because you killed them faster 😆
lol even in runeterra that was the same XD In lor there is a fury mechanic. If you kill someone you gain +1 health and attack. It was in built in every dragon except shyvana, despite the fact that she was supposed to be representative champion of the dragon archetype XD Rito works in mysterious ways
@@muratkahraman8313 Oh no, there was a reason. Leveled up (dragon form) Shivana had it, humanoid Shivana didn't. She just got it because she felt really awkward in gameplay without it.
@@muratkahraman8313 They did it for flavor. The basic Shyv card is a human, and the leveled up version is a dragon. So the base card doesn’t have the Fury keyword. Later on, they added Fury to the base card as well as a buff. This was done for balancing the card, at the expense of losing a bit of flavor.
I still miss the hexcore. Sure it “took up a slot” but 180 ap + 450 mana at level 18 was so insanely gold effective. I really liked how he was made to scale as he needed levels, instead of snowballing like he does nowadays
The end of your video about champ kits evolving is why i really liked Heroes of the Storm. The talent system made certain level milestones really cool as your abilities could gain new effects and replaced items entirely. There were even ones that gave your auto attacks %hp damage to help kill tanks. EDIT: typo
Yeah, his stack evolution is basically Heroes of the Storm Quest Talents. The thing about LoL is the Runes in my opinion, they are a literally the biggest problem from what I see. It's an outside of game element that influences inside of it. Removing it would easily make one less thing to worry about and make it easier to balance.
The end of the video just sounded like "what if league of legends worked like heroes of the storm?'', i know that's not what Exil is saying, but that it would be interesting, it would be.
Urf sona is still one of my fav champs to play. At some point, you can litereally eun circles around the enemy, tanking all kind of things, while you annihalite them.
The super champion ability upgrade that you are talking about is basically exactly what "Heroes of the Storm" did, and could do because there is no other scaling for champions other than levels and "quests".
12:05 I've played her on and off for the past 4 years and I had no idea her E doesn't cancel her pathing. I'm an adc main that just never bothered a-clicking so I guess I just never tried just using E after picking a set path.
I'm still going to miss the old mana cost/refund passive back when tear of the goddess further refunded 15% of mana cost. Nothing like being able to never run out of mana while casting Q off cooldown.
35:14 and thats what we call "heroes of the storm" (i really dont like hots, but you just EXACTLY described that game, so you might wanna give it a try)
Nah, HOTS is not good, because there is no solo XP/Solo Gold , people like the feeling of carrying on their own because of their performance, it feels scuffed that your leads are not really "yours"
@@YasuoHashiraYTB lacking solo XP is what actually makes HotS good, because you can't 1v5 the whole enemy team because of your champ being OP and fed. That's why balance in HotS is supreme compared to LoL - you can't win just because your characters are better.
35:25 "What if RIven could kill 3 enemies with windslash and have her ult for the rest of the game?" Exil, your Riven main is showing, man. That would be absolute hell D:
@@HamsterPants522 i have tried playing it lately, it isn't as boring as most people say. There are rotating maps with different win conditions from each map. It focuses mostly on team play too instead of just prioritizing one lane and advantage per player. There is no gold as well, so what you farm is exp so thatbthe entire team levels up faster, this also means no items. But each hero has different skill paths to take. It's VERY different from how league is now.
@@titocristobal5573 I've tried playing it, and it's as boring as I say. The fact that the team progresses together and shares the XP is a bad thing, not a good thing. It's the most tilting thing ever to see your useless teammates who do absolutely nothing are leeching off of your work.
@@HamsterPants522 if that's the case then it's worse in league, xp can be caught up if the team decides to play extremely defensively. In league, you're managing gold and xp, both of which are not easily gained especially if you remain offensive or defensive. And, in hots, even if you are behind on xp with your team, as long as you are taking the right camps and pressuring the right lanes, it's easy to carry the team even if you have 4 brainlets with you. Also, with different wincons for each map, you won't be bored in sticking to one play style each game. So the leech team mates you have in hots, as long as they are not afk or intentionally feeding, you will be able to go around and find a way to win as pong as you avoid direct team fights.
@@titocristobal5573 The win conditions in HotS are the worst thing about it, and they're the thing which made me drop the game. What are you saying, man? Those stupid little mini-games dictate the whole match, basically invalidating everything else that happens. Who the hell wants to play dumb mini-games to get absurdly massive buffs or debuffs that make the game unplayable for the losing team? What's the point of the game having pvp if the way to win is to avoid teamfights? Teamfights are the only fun part of a fucking moba.
What you talked about in the end, about the no runes and no items but quests to complete, describes the Moba Heroes Of the Storm perfectly, and that's why I love playing it. Many Heroes can selected different quest to upgrade different abilities, or just choose a flat bonus but no quest. Anyways great vid as always
14:06 "assasin were top tier: leblanc, kassadin, zed, talon, katarina, akali..." sound like s11 and the las 3 seasons to me with some sprinkles of champs that did not exist back then.
@@kyzoc.4785 Basically bonus ap based on level and bonus mana on which you upgrade it to upgrade your skills, on it's max upgrade was equivalent to deathcap with mana.
I'm glad they added the similar style of "quest" passives from HotS into LoL. They could do this to other older champs, where after doing X with a spell they gain bonuses that allows them to do additional stuff aka. The Aghanim method from Dota 2
That's pretty cool, the few quests we do have in league are interesting but completely lackluster. No one really cares about Rengar vs Kha rivalry or Senna vs Thresh, it doesn't really matter.
@@Exil22 aren't they actually called "events" on LoL wiki? The same thing as the Battle for Freljord, with Sejuani, Ashe and Lissandra on different teams? I was thinking on the line of Butcher from Diablo or Lunara from WoW. If you don't know anything about them, give 'em a look. For all its faults, HotS had very good Hero designs which I can see easily implemented into LoL. Shame to see the game in its current state though. As for putting something like an Aghanim scepter, I agree that it would be busted. Dota plays on the "if everything is busted, nothing is".Imagine a Kayn with benefits of both his blue and red form. Edit: I know it's impossible, but I wish we had a champ like Abathur. Or if they added a micro heavy champ like Meepo or a champ that combines spells like Invoker
@@MrLolguy93 i 100% agree with that hots has an amazing take on different heroes. just look at deathwing and cho'gall who completely shake up the basic designs of moba characters. and look at heroes like alexstraza and blaze who in very different ways utilize the extra 'passive' button for great outcomes. for so long ive wanted a true companion champion in league, but im probably going to have to stick with rexxar, since riot cant even keep the current temporary companions bug- and yank-free when it comes to abathur though, look at yuumi. even though yuumi is horrible addition to the league roster (in my humble opinion), she does fill the roll of ab's e spam build. and also with how prevalent the hunter runes are it would be a mistake to add something like ab. it's already a pain when you accidentally pick the "kill all 5 heroes" quest as zul'jin when facing ab
The suggestion of removing items and runes to focus more on champion kits is something HOTS actually does really well (it has a lot of problems outside of that, don't get me wrong) but it is something I'd like to see!
I think it's really cool that they're bringing these kinds of mechanics back. I was a really old Cassiopeia Top main back when she had her stacking mechanic and it felt infinitely better to build that up and feel a sense of achievement that had a real impact than pretty much anything else in the game has now. Season 11 did a lot of good and a lot of bad, but the neutering of Seraph's Embrace's utility was one of the biggest mistakes. On a more serious note, I'm hoping this is them dipping their toes in the water of extending game times a little bit and adding more comeback mechanics, since that's a lot of the time what Stacking can allow. Whether or not I'm right is to be seen but I hope we see more mini-reworks or new champions with things like this since it makes playing a champion a lot of fun because it gives a sense of achievement and lets the player have some security for the late game if they fell behind early.
I'd love to see Rengar do more weird and interesting things again as a main. Just getting some extra AD is often so inconsequential during gameplay that I forget about my passive entirely and never focus on trying to stack it. It's not like Rengar needs extra damage with these new items. Hell I care more about the fact that I'll get ravenous hunter stacks than bonetooth!
true, old bonetooth was something worth taking risks for. current one is just like the domination runes, it'll stack up eventually as the game progresses
@The_damag3 & The spy LoL need to cut numbers, both in DMG and healing/shield. Like, it's getting to Heroes of the Storm levels of healing and shielding in this.
@@augustoemmel4333 yeah i mean ive never seen this much fucking bullshit lol, i have only known "number creep" in other multiplayer games, such as say, World of Warcraft where numbers would be like, 500.000 a late game damage spell and some nonsense like that, but the game was still like, balanced yknow, but shit like league, where numbers are just going up and up and you die before blinking at least once 8 out of 10 games, its just fucking insanity
Been playing Sona since season 1. With a few million mastery points, I can say I know everything about Sona. Her issues have always been weak abilities early game, horrible mana costs, never safe when warding, and super squshie. The fact that her abilities require her to be in the thick of team fights to make use of the aura effects exacerbates the squishie problem. This is why I almost always bought RoA and Staff on her previously. RoA helped solve the mana, and survivability issues in conjunction with tear -> staff. I know a lot of Sona players didn't take RoA, but basically everyone thought the champ was trash because without RoA her issues made her extremely un-fun to play. Even now, I have played her far less this season than other seasons because of the removal of RoA without really giving her anything. The new scaling mechanic for giving her more ability haste really has not solved the core issue she has. Sona has always been a mage enchanter. Still is. She has better AP scaling still than other enchanters. Before many of her damage nerfs, she had the potential to outscale in damage any champ except nasus or veigar. 1K AP allowed for 5K damage burst outputs very easily. RoA + Staff + Deathcap = 1K+ AP with the right runes. Literally could 1 shot any squishie late game while still being fairly tanky to deal with assassins. Add in a Zhonyas for assassins after that and there wasn't a champ that could fight Sona 1v1 late game. The latest rework for her didn't solve her issues. She still has mana problems, crappy rank 1/2 baseline ability usage, and is squishier than jello. At least her W mana costs is only slightly bad instead of utterly bad to use. Until the mini rework, the 105 base mana cost for a 25 point heal was laughable. Still, her heal is mostly useless until later when items can help deal with the mana cost and she has enough ranks in the ability to make it actually useful as a heal/shield. Like most Sona players. I had jumped ship to play Seraphine. For awhile she really was Sona but way better. Then they nerfed her to hell and I had to basically give up on Seraphine. So back to mage supports only like most support players these days. Sona is not over tuned at all. She still has bad early game, and her late game DAMAGE and healing scaling is far lower than what it used to be. The only really somewhat nice thing they added is that her Q now can hit unseen targets so warding is slightly safer.
a few years back, i made the defect from slay the spire into a champ and he had 3 ults which you could only pick one at level 6 and stick with it the whole game and all his base abilities had some kind of mision that when it was accomplished, would give a minor buff to that ability, all his abilities generated orbs and all orbs made their passive effect every couple of seconds, as an example, his Q was a skillshot that would give him a lightning orb if he hit someone, completing the quest would make it so the passive effect of lightning orb (which is basically old blitz R passive) would be in an area and if only one enemy was hit, the damage would be doubled shit was crazy and never really thought about how broken he would be with 5 items
What you forget to say about old Cassio is, back then you were punished much harder for Using E on a non-poisened Enemy. The Cooldown was about 6 seconds and reduced on poisened enemys to 0,5 sec. So 4,5 sec more CD, when you miss to poisin your target.
Funnily enough, I haven't seen a SINGLE sona in any of my games since her rework. Unrelated, I don't understand how the old champ spotlights are still the only ones for certain champs. It's just one of those things riot refuses to care about.
YES!! I'm so stressed right now with my personal life and this just made it better. Also thank you so much for adding me on league exil, I would absolutely love to play with you sometime ❤
20:50 Dying with bonetooth removes 1 stack, out of 20. You get 1 back per kill or assist. Dying with Mejais removes 10 stacks, you get 4 back per kill, 2 per assist. You need 2 kills and an assist per death. This does not at all compare to rengar, who just had to assist, even after death, to stay even.
I never said they were exactly the same, have the exact same amount of risk, and are a 1:1 comparison. The point being it's still risk vs reward simply because you can gain AND lose stacks. 99% of league stacking systems only allow you to gain. That's all bro.
@@Exil22 I never said you said they were the exact same either. You just said they were both risk rewards, when rengar barely risks anything at all. Especially when the bonetooth necklace 2.0 removed the stackloss on death, as did the 3.0 trinket. Dying with mejais costs you a very heavy amount, dying with rengars bonetooth necklace is barely a scratch. You'd have to die 20 times in a row without getting an assist to be at the same place you were if you died 3 times with mejais, even with 2 assists.
@@Zero_Shift "when rengar barely risks anything at all" so would I be correct that you are saying that both items are indeed risk and reward items? I can buy bitcoin or I can buy mecha doge trump coin. They are very different things, but they are both crypto. You are correct in your assessment of the differences between the two items in your first reply, but it misses the point that he isn't saying they are similar in degree of risk vs reward but that they are indeed the same type of item.
@@j.asmrgaming1228 A 10/1 zed diving a 0/10 adc is still a "risk" but in reality it's such a tiny risk that calling it that makes it seems ridiculous. Dying with mejais is such a huge setback while dying with bonetooth is just one assist away from getting it back.
@@Zero_Shift I'm not arguing the degrees of risk. It might seem ridiculous, but it is what it is. a second is an amount of time a million years is an amount of time, dying due to a car crash =death dying while choking on a lifesaver = death regardless of how different or ridiculous those things are they are still the same type of thing. I can put my money in a government bond which will be paid back unless the government collapses, or i could put my money in mecha doge coin which has about a 99% chance of failing and me losing my money and yet both are forms of risk vs reward.
I don't even have faith in riot's methods of changing the game. Hell, I don't even respect the balance and design team. But hey, I'm just a dude who's salty about riot and the things they add.
@@Exil22 Dude, I'm honestly amazed how most of riot's balance and design still have a job. What the hell is a "good job" if the things they did and add is nothing but a toxic environment for the players?
@@warlis4767 that already shows that balancing 150+ champs while maintaining their fun aspect is extremely difficult, also league is not a perfect game, so it’s impossible to make a change that the 100% of the players would like
I love the Kindred stacking passive for the skill level it gives you On a basic level, you can prioritize ganking your marked target and run to the marked camp But when you know to track the enemy jungler with it, predict which camp is getting marked next, and marking an enemy for mindgames, you get on a whole other level
As a Seraphine main and Sona player, I always hate when people compare, I play both regularly and they are VERY different. I just wanted to let that out xd Love your videos
@@Exil22 in practice the mindset between a sera and sona player might still differ a bit in aspects like positioning and ability orders, since they still do slightly different things at the end of the day. but looking at it on paper, they're still only hairs removed from being carbon copies. it's definitely an interesting bit to think about.
they do the same thing but I do think they are different. The easiest way to explain it is that seraphine is an artillery enchanter while sona is a battle mage enchanter, they differ heavily in range and that gives sona WAY higher hps in exchange for shorter range
Infinite scaling is my favorite mechanic in the game... There's just something about the power fantasy of slowly becoming stronger and stronger until you're some sort of unbeatable eldritch god
that's exactly what sword of the occult was, which unlike rengar's old bonetooth was available for everybody. unfortunately it got removed at some point.
Yeah no, the thing with Mejai is that few ap characters abuse it while being REALLY safe, if we had an AD mejai (again) imagine champions like Camille, Riven, Fiora just abusing the shit out of it while never dying again
I believe you even spend more mana with this rework, and it bearly compensates for the R old passive, once you get all stacks and you start reducing the cooldown of your R with passive, then finally theres a MINIMUM benefit over pre mini rework sona, but overall this was a nerf
@@luisgerardobujandalopez4994 I don't think it was a nerf or a buff just a change. Sona now gets to her decent mid-late game faster at the cost of having a slightly worse late game. That said in game her R refund mechanic is close to useless as you still only get 1 per team fight and by the time you get it back again there's usually nothing to use it for because either their team is dead or you are. I still feel like the stacking mechanic at full stacks could have improved other parts of her kit.
@@bluepanda8004 i mean back in season 9 sona had way better scalings and way more ways to get gold (better spell thiefs, klepto) and she was sitting at 50-51% winrate... right now she just turbo scales with the support items because she uses them best of all supports. you can trigger moonstone on cd and let your team perma apply grivious wounds, which is super good in the current meta. if they nerf goredrinker sona winrate will drop
Maybe! He's pretty interesting. I think since his release he is the most picked champion in pro play across all seasons? Something like that? It's a cool topic
really love the vids man, dont play league that much anymore because life happens you know but as soon as i get a notification that you've put out a new vid i watch it immediately!
I like how in the conclusion, Exil is basically talking about what Heroes of the Storm did with Quests. HotS doesn't have all the same mechanics as LoL (ie there is no item shop), instead, every ~3 lvls you get to choose an upgrade to your base kit, those upgrades can be quests which is basically a little stacking mini game that function like LoL's stacking. But since it's directly tied to your champion and you can't get items, the game can allow itself to permanently (or not) enhance the kit of the champion. For example, Kel Thuzad has an innate quest where he has to land his E (basic skill shot that can be recast after it touches someone to stun them and get them together, basically Zac Q but only skillshots) 15 times to get a new ability that can spawn a spike which is a valid E target, basically making his combos (that are a core part of his kit) easier and more consistent. He also gets 75% more magic damage after hitting E 30 times total. Basically HotS can do cool stuff with its champions because it doesn't have an equivalent of the LoL items system
The stacking mechanic I find most fun is actually not an infinite one, it’s Darius five stack. I like it because it kind of makes up the entire identity of your kit, and you have to get it every time you fight if you want to go god mode. I find it a lot more engaging than infinitely stacking passives that last the whole game and mostly accrue just by existing and doing stuff you would do anyways.
On your last point - Heroes of the Storm, while now a defunct game, had that built into it from the get go. The game doesn't have Items or Runes, so all of a character's scaling is within their kit. many Heroes have quest giving talents that do exactly as you propose Anivia might. Arthas has a root that begins with a ground targeting zone, but eventually upgrades in range, applies a slow in the line between you and the targeted zone, and then applies a root in that zone instead. There are so many interesting concepts in Heroes of the Storm that I wish it were done by a better company, and not entirely cast aside like trash. I wish a team dedicated to mobas would step up and fill the gap. There has to be a middle ground between item choices and individual talents and character progression to create a moba out of, but there's currently nobody in that space. HotS fails because it was created as blizzard kinda as a cash in, but also because it focuses TOO much on teamfighting and objective play.
What you described at the end is literally the quest talent system which heroes of the storm has. If you are interested in that, just look at there. But it wasnt too popular there as well. Some of them were fine but many of them just resulted in a degenrate playstyle. There were some which you may have never been able to complete in a game. Like lets check some notorious ones: Alarak: skill E, a laser which is point on click but hits everyone between alarak and the target. Lv1 talent: hit 2 enemies for dmg hit 3 (without the target) for range, hit 4 (so basicly the whole enemy team, one targeted and 4 in the way, tho it could be casted on minions as well) for some other op stuff like Dmg + Halfing the CD. For the last you needed extreme luck and skill to ever get it. Alarak talent on lv4 or 7: rite of rak’sir: alarak had a passive called sadism which gave extra spell dmg and usually used for talents for trading dmg for utility. Rite of raksir decreased the base sadism by 20 but you could increase it by every ability hit by 4 without cap but loosing all upon dying. Which at pro hands made it broken and able to get even 5-600% ability damage. But for the most, you basicly lost 20% dmg and struggled since alarak was one of the hardest champs. Most notorious example: the butcher with the fresh meat passive. Thr butcher was s bursty dive heavy hero, without any escape or defense (had some self healing but early it didnt worth much). Enemies dying near the butcher would drop 20 fresh meat, each fresh meat giving 1 AD upon collection but loosing 5, then after nerf, 10 upon dying. After collecting 200, gaining extra 50 AD, not loosing any upon dying and infinitely stacking. Sounds good but on reality, he was essentially useless for the half of the game at least. But for the whole if you were focused down a few times. But in the 5% when you could complete it early? Oh boi. But for this, even in norms or aram picking him was considered trolling. But in the end, many quests got reworked or removed or made easier but less impactfull because they incited degenrate playstyles and made the heroes extremly feast or famine that you were worthless and focused down but a demigod if you could complete it. The only one which was kind of okay the orb collextion which was like that every minion wave and jungle camp dropped a globe which restored a bit hp and mana and collecting 20-30 of them was the quest. You picked up those anyway so eventually you finished them. But these were usually for a bit of utility which wasnt game breaking.
There is a game that has the scenario you mentioned with Riven. Heroes of the Storm. No items or runes, the entire team is the same level, and every few levels you pick up a talent that augments your abilities (picking a choice of ultimates at level 10 with few exceptions). Some of those talents even had “quests” attached to them where doing certain things would give buffs! My favorite would be Chromie who can pick up a talent at level 1 that requires her to hit her Q, a long range thin skill shot that can hit minions, against enemy heroes 40 times. To aid her in this she has an echo that stands where she was and casts the ability with her with less than half damage. If she does it she got a second Echo! It was an incredible damage boost
I would love to see a video on Swain. I think his lore is amazing. His rework has been quite a chance from the old and your video's are very well made. It would be a threat for me, a big one. I keep my fingers crossed until I know you'll make a video on him! That said, keep up the good work!
Dude, always love your videos. Some of, if not the highest quality league videos on YT. This was excellent. The topic of scaling champions with their own abilities would be so good for the game. Imagine getting stronger because you are good at playing your champion? what a concept
The kind of ways that you talked about champions evolving, is what basically Heroes of the Storm had. A lot of heroes, if not all, had talents that involved in hitting multiple times people with certain skills or killing an amount of units, getting health globes, etc... It made stack fun, skilled. Then again, Heroes of the Storm did not have items, so everything was balanced on the talents that you chose. It was more focused on mechanics of the maps rather than other things.
I mained viktor back in the day and always upgraded E because the item itself gave a bunch of AP and it was good for waveclear/teamfights. Also there was a bug with his ult that made him secretly OP where if you mashed R it would cast 2 chaos storms at once for double dmg but you could only move one of them with subsequent casts.
The thing u talked bout at the end there, upgrading spells and stuff, HotS kinda had this system with the talentquests sometimes, and I loved the shit out of it
You should make a video about Crowd Control, but more specifically, obscure Crowd Control. Like Victors W has what i believe is the rarest type of CC, not the stun, but along with the stun it is a Knock Down, knocking down enemies who are knocked up. I cannot think of 1 other ability that does this, i could be wrong, but i'm fairly certain it's the only one.
I love the way they implemented Senna's stacking: her passive flat nerfs her crit damage and her attack speed is abysmal. It mostly doesnt affect her power since she starts the game with 0 crit chance, but instead it nerfs a whole class of items which is the one she would be supposed to build (the adc crit and attack speed items !). That way we as a player have to DESERVE the stacking mechanic before getting the scaling benefits catching up to an average power level, while we also have the choice to work around that innate nerf building item form a completely different class (mostly bruiser or assassin nowadays, but we also seen Senna build tank or enchanter in the past). I think it's a very interesting way to design stacking, and it opens a whole realm of theory crafting new creative builds revolving around gold efficiency instead of kit synergy
You're absolutely right about how gangplank serpents should enable cool bits of all of his kit, not just his ult. Imagine if you could buy a second pistol, and get two charges of his q that work like vel'koz w
Swain scaling is definitely more subtle but it is impactful. It's a slow grind but when you're in a 40 min game 100+ stacks is a huge difference from 0 stacks at the start of the game. 500 bonus health may not seem like alot but consider the fact that this is doubled while using his R + an additional 275 hp at lvl 16 and suddenly your looking at 1275+ bonus hp on a champion that is constantly draining hp from up to 5 champions. It makes getting the full duration on your R possible which means you're also getting the full damage. Assuming he gets the full 12 second duration with 400 ap against all 5 enemy champions Swain will deal 7200 magic damage from drain and an additional 7300 from Demonflare. Thats an astounding 14500 raw magic damage not including the burn from his liandry's or demonic embrace. Keep in mind that this is all passive damage that swain can get from his R; he can still get a ridiculous amount of damage from the rest of his kit as well. In my opinion swain has the most valuable ultimate in true 5v5 team fights because if they fight you directly they are simply going to lose meaning they are forced to play around your ult which gives you complete space control in a fight.
All the stacking mechanics and stuff like "Kill X champs with that" are a thing in HotS and is called Quests It's one of the mechanics I enjoy the most there, but I'm not sure they will fit as well in League as a common mechanic
*I think riot should try to change the level mechanic. Maybe so at higher level more stats are given to the ability. For example, so traditionally you could max out your main ability as soon as possible but with this mechanic you could hold on and wait until lvl 11 or 16 and gain better stats for your ability. So by holding on and maxing out your main ability til after lvl 16 would give you a decent powerspike Idk just a thought, just so you don't have to max your main ability asap every single game.*
Also Cass' E only used to reset if the enemy was already poisoned, so if you didn't wait until her Q or W actually started to tick on the enemy your Twin Fang would have a 5 second cooldown.
i find it pretty funny that the recommendation for how the game should change is change the item system into heroes of the storms talent/quest system (not literally but on a theoretical level)
I'm forgetting where I saw it, but I recall that they considered giving Viego a Blade of the Ruined King item that would get stronger throughout the game
Great video as usual! Just one thing: the transition from the part about Kindred to the part about Sona felt a bit strange. Maybe a short pause would have been nice there.
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Note - This video didn't mention Cho'Gath because I had him in the voice over and the script, but then that one section of the audio file corrupted :( I didn't notice until like 1 hour before the video needed to be up so I had to edit it out. F in the chat for Cho
Also someone said I didn't mention Garen W and you're right, oops. That one is kinda boring though :p
How much I gotta pay you to do a pyke video man @Exil
Chogath ate the reality around that part
B
wish riot thought more about line of taking into account the power budgets from items, dragon buffs, and other way champs can be strong, while yuumi (the champ that breaks all these budgets) exists
Have you played Strife? It was a moba that tried to fix almost every moba problem, It was pretty good but got shutdown.
I talked about infinite scaling in one of my videos and how I feel like it's better designed in the form of thresholds like Bard and Kindred. Glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment!
Heloooo master :)
I really like the idea of trying to reach a specific goal, not just having either 200 or 400 stacks on Nasus!
@@Exil22 every 100 stacks nasus gets some more lifesteal in his passive. I like that idea and nobody can convince me that its broken or something idk
Edit: apparently it wasn't obvious enough for the two reddit challengers: this is a joke. Nasus has by far the healthiest infinite stacking ability in the game.
Yeah, I've seen it.
@@Pincsi01 well given that, stacking and healing isn't needed at all, yeah? I mean... Kindred doesn't need AS on her Q, she naturally gets more AS with the items she builds.
Sion doesn't need HP in his passive, he naturally gets tanker with the items he builds.
Akshan doesn't need any of his five passives, he naturally gets a shield, more damage, movement speed and attack speed with he items he builds.
Like i already said, no one can convince me that it would be broken or something
The other old "evolve" champ kinda was old hiemer dinger, where each level in q upgraded the turrets in someway
Oh this is very true. Man, that was OLD OLD Heimer.
@@Exil22 true OG player right here
...Fuck, now I'm just remembering when Heimer could hold every lane on his own with just his turrets...
@@MrJinglejanglejingle remember when his rockets were bullshit point and click? good times.
@@jackhughes7925 IIRC they were used just like Sona's Q, but only aimed champions.
Man I have seen powerpoint presentations with better framerate than that cass spotlight
HAHA
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@@fioraoutplayed please shut up
😂
Honestly, what you describe at the end, with no items and just levels and evolving abilities really reminded me of Heroes of the Storm. Albeit that snowball there was naturally a bit harder to do as you snowball the whole team and not a single champ becoming unstoppable. Also i don't remember any specific stack mechanic but it would fit there i suppose.
Cromie Q i guess.
based hots
Exactly, there's lots of talents and innate abilities in Heroes of the Storm that can have finite or infinite stacking that reward players with additional effects, extra damage, extra mana and other resources or even new abilities getting unlocked (like Jaina getting Ice Block as a defensive ability if she completes her dealing damage with her combos quest). The most notable of them is probably Butcher who gets meat to collect from the ground if he is being near enemy units when they die and he becomes a monster if he gains a certain amount of meat but he's also useless late game if he can't gather enough meat - he is probably one of the closest heroes to a snowball champion.
I also like how generally the stacks for the most powerful bonuses can be partially or totally lost on death so you'd have to do it all over again, but it's usually worth the effort. It works really well with the lack of items because you can design these crazy ability and talents quests without breaking the balance. These stacks are so important that the game notifies the other players when you complete a quest or reached maximum stacks, even if you can lose those stacks on death later on, just like it displays the kills.
dehaka with his essence and diablo with his souls have a stack mechanic and I'm pretty sure at least raynor could gain stacks if he killed minions
the old bomb quest for cho'gall as well and the quest for stitches
Ah yes, the old champion spotlights where Phreak tried to take. Every. Single. Champion. Into the jungle. Simpler times.
I dont remember he took them all to jungle?
@@PROJECTJoza100 atleast all the way up to the Lulu spotlight.
Phreak was just trying to enlighten us how impactfull jungle role is all this years
@@dankmemes8254 Except that part is kinda terrible despite having to prioritize gank and objectives at the same time,i wonder if two jg roles are added it would be an interesting matchup. Oh wait…
@@gunlyte4661 Lol
Sona doesn't have infinite scaling. After reaching max stacks each time you get a stack it reduces the current cooldown of your ultamite by 1.5 seconds. It doesn't permanently reduce the cooldown of her ultimate. The text you show is worded that way but in game it's worded differently to show what it actually does.
That's what I thought so too. It'd be extremely OP if stacking as little as 70 times after the initial 120 stacks would reduce the ult total CD by 100 seconds, which would mean 0 CD on ult. It's extremely weird someone would read that the passive would reduce the total CD instead of reducing the remaining CD.
he's considering that infinite scaling, since you never stop getting stacks that do something.
@@Jimera0 I don't think that counts as "stacking". Otherwise, we already had Ezreal with his Q reducing all CDs
I wish she had tbh
When she reaches max,each ability cast should give 0.25 ability haste
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
lmao nice clip in the beginning
Hi dad
Dude that clip cracked me up so much please everyone sub to him LOL
Is that the Ravemaster Allen Chen? Pogchamp
Lol
yes funny clip in the bigini in the benigi in the begigi in the bigining
Heroes of the storm is a moba that has mechanics like you're describing. No items but you get mutually exclusive talents as you level up, some of which are 'quests' that typically give benefits at x-number of stacks and are usually capped but some stack infinitely
For example:
KTZ gets a quest as part of his trait (passive). But at level 1 he can choose which basic ability gets augmented once he has all 30 stacks (gained by landing his e), he also gain an ice spire at 15 stacks which he can use to extend his e range kinda like zed's shadows
They even added 'Gambits' recently, a quest that gives you a bunch of stacks up front but every death reduces the bonus until it's gone. imagine dark seal giving 5 stacks to start with that are tracked independantly
They come in many shapes and sizes but unless items and runes are going away they may not fit well in league outside of the few curated ones
Yeah but blizzard fucked that game over more than their fans in general I'm currently playing Dota 2 and iits so much better than league for me
@@adastial2104 dota 2 is the best moba out of there but God it's way harder than anything else
Tbh I think right now dota isnt even a moba anymore, It is an action RTS
@@stylesheetra9411 I agree and that's why I'm sticking to only 2 3 heroes and turbo until I fully get used to the game
HotS is objectively superior to League in every single way, including graphical engine and game client.
@@dinduslayer Having swung back and forth for the sake of variety I'd say both games have their own merits but lol's issues do make it less fun to get in to, most notably needing to learn the bare minimum of 150+ champs and a shop full of items.
Edit: also runes which are just dumb imo
35:16 That is exactly like Heroes of the Storm works. No items, no runes. Just upgrade traits and abilities on level up, where some upgrades are "quests" that you have to complete to get the full benefit/effect, i.e. "hit 20 Qs to get 2 charges".
My favorite stacking mechanic is when i pick Lulu and i start to stack my adc's kills and then i lose the game
xD
You could say you always leave your enemy INAnimated
@@caprisces6139 you may say they end up INActive for being dead too much time
Lulu players deserve lose evey game :)
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
Finally another Exil video to watch and then rewatch all the old ones 💙
ayyyyyy
Same actually lmao
Accurate
saaame
Samee
"Kindred might actually be able to get more than 2 marks in a game"
Oof man, why do you gotta call me out like that?
LOL sorry
As much as I love Kindred, they’re such a unrewarding champion. Even if you get fed, your kit rarely allows you to hard carry.
@@LaughingGasFunny ???? she's strong af, she just has some RNG in her kit with lucky marks
@@biggiecheese2004 as someone who has over 300k points on Kindred and has played them since release I can assure you with 100% certainty that wether they are broken or trash tier does not really matter as much as the team you're paired with. Their insane mobility allows for some easy counter-jungling, which in turn allows you to fetch extra stacks... The problem is that if you're caught and your team isn't there to cover your ass, you might literally die to a gust of wind once any laner rotates to your position if you can't get out in time.
i play norms and i have several times gotten 5 marks by 6 min
You upload once in a while but every time you do you make a banger. And im 100% sure this is gonna be another banger, much love for entertaining me 👍
I put in hundreds of hours into each video to try and make each one at least somewhat worth your guys time. Sorry that it takes a while, hope it's worth it. Thanks for the kind words
@@Exil22 Heck yeah it's worth it, my other usual notifications I have to ponder if I want to spend time on, but when you upload, it's an insta-click
@@Exil22 it's definitely worth it. There are a lot of league related videos on TH-cam but yours are some of the rare ones that are timeless. Love your vids and keep going. We appreciate your Videos and the effort you put into them.
@@Exil22 You really are impressive. There's very few content creators that approach your quality of content.
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
I was really sad when they reworked Viktor as everyone thought he was weak but i was nuking people with him, his burst with E max was beyond insane, and you only had to land it once. was crazy how bursty he was. Not a fan of his more damage over time style they changed him too. man he was so great on release people just built him wrong cause of the champ spotlight saying evolve e and got for a more tanky ap build. You went burst damage and you were godly
I hard climbed season 8 with Viktor using the lich ludens burst combo. You weren't countered by assassins after a few items because you killed them faster 😆
I like how Shyvana's stacking passive is just an afterthought that has something to do with her theme
lol even in runeterra that was the same XD In lor there is a fury mechanic. If you kill someone you gain +1 health and attack. It was in built in every dragon except shyvana, despite the fact that she was supposed to be representative champion of the dragon archetype XD Rito works in mysterious ways
@@muratkahraman8313 That's hilarious!
@@muratkahraman8313 Oh no, there was a reason. Leveled up (dragon form) Shivana had it, humanoid Shivana didn't. She just got it because she felt really awkward in gameplay without it.
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
@@muratkahraman8313 They did it for flavor. The basic Shyv card is a human, and the leveled up version is a dragon. So the base card doesn’t have the Fury keyword.
Later on, they added Fury to the base card as well as a buff. This was done for balancing the card, at the expense of losing a bit of flavor.
I still miss the hexcore. Sure it “took up a slot” but 180 ap + 450 mana at level 18 was so insanely gold effective. I really liked how he was made to scale as he needed levels, instead of snowballing like he does nowadays
The end of your video about champ kits evolving is why i really liked Heroes of the Storm. The talent system made certain level milestones really cool as your abilities could gain new effects and replaced items entirely. There were even ones that gave your auto attacks %hp damage to help kill tanks. EDIT: typo
Yeah, his stack evolution is basically Heroes of the Storm Quest Talents. The thing about LoL is the Runes in my opinion, they are a literally the biggest problem from what I see. It's an outside of game element that influences inside of it. Removing it would easily make one less thing to worry about and make it easier to balance.
The end of the video just sounded like "what if league of legends worked like heroes of the storm?'', i know that's not what Exil is saying, but that it would be interesting, it would be.
Urf sona is still one of my fav champs to play. At some point, you can litereally eun circles around the enemy, tanking all kind of things, while you annihalite them.
Sona wasn’t always late-game heavy. She had high early game damage in her really old kit
The super champion ability upgrade that you are talking about is basically exactly what "Heroes of the Storm" did, and could do because there is no other scaling for champions other than levels and "quests".
"viktors hexcore is a complete waste of a slot"
>180 ap, 450 mana, literally the most damaging item next to rabadons
The issue with that reasoning is that his kit is balanced around that fact.
@@vlisto3712 Ah yes, curse my inability to effectively build and play AD Vik top
@@vlisto3712 waaaah I can't play my as or ad Viktor. I can't play my mage like an adc
As a main, i can tell you lvl 18 hexcore was the juiciest thing ever
The item that is gold inefficient until level 15, or in other terms, the majority of the game
12:05
I've played her on and off for the past 4 years and I had no idea her E doesn't cancel her pathing. I'm an adc main that just never bothered a-clicking so I guess I just never tried just using E after picking a set path.
I didn't know a-clicking was a thing (until a month ago), I always had respect for adc mains because of it. Now...
Most of the times though you wanna change your path after one or two e's because you're basically just running in a straight line.
I'm still going to miss the old mana cost/refund passive back when tear of the goddess further refunded 15% of mana cost. Nothing like being able to never run out of mana while casting Q off cooldown.
35:14
and thats what we call "heroes of the storm"
(i really dont like hots, but you just EXACTLY described that game, so you might wanna give it a try)
Nah, HOTS is not good, because there is no solo XP/Solo Gold , people like the feeling of carrying on their own because of their performance, it feels scuffed that your leads are not really "yours"
@@YasuoHashiraYTB you say "people dont like it", but there ARE people who like it.
@@EinManU I mean yeah, there are always gonna be people that like the game, that does not mean the game is popular/good
@@YasuoHashiraYTB ....yea..?
@@YasuoHashiraYTB lacking solo XP is what actually makes HotS good, because you can't 1v5 the whole enemy team because of your champ being OP and fed. That's why balance in HotS is supreme compared to LoL - you can't win just because your characters are better.
You know you're a veteran when you learn from these videos that Cassio can't buy boots, or that Rengar necklace item doesn't exist anymore
Or just bad game knowledge
35:25 "What if RIven could kill 3 enemies with windslash and have her ult for the rest of the game?" Exil, your Riven main is showing, man. That would be absolute hell D:
Remember that he said that considering the nonexistence of items and runes, so it wouldn't really be hell
"what if no items or runes" is literally what heroes of the storm is.
True commie experience
"What if League of Legends only had Champion Abilities..."
It would be like Heroes of the Storm then.
So, in other words, extremely rigid and boring.
@@HamsterPants522 i have tried playing it lately, it isn't as boring as most people say. There are rotating maps with different win conditions from each map. It focuses mostly on team play too instead of just prioritizing one lane and advantage per player. There is no gold as well, so what you farm is exp so thatbthe entire team levels up faster, this also means no items. But each hero has different skill paths to take. It's VERY different from how league is now.
@@titocristobal5573 I've tried playing it, and it's as boring as I say. The fact that the team progresses together and shares the XP is a bad thing, not a good thing. It's the most tilting thing ever to see your useless teammates who do absolutely nothing are leeching off of your work.
@@HamsterPants522 if that's the case then it's worse in league, xp can be caught up if the team decides to play extremely defensively. In league, you're managing gold and xp, both of which are not easily gained especially if you remain offensive or defensive. And, in hots, even if you are behind on xp with your team, as long as you are taking the right camps and pressuring the right lanes, it's easy to carry the team even if you have 4 brainlets with you. Also, with different wincons for each map, you won't be bored in sticking to one play style each game. So the leech team mates you have in hots, as long as they are not afk or intentionally feeding, you will be able to go around and find a way to win as pong as you avoid direct team fights.
@@titocristobal5573 The win conditions in HotS are the worst thing about it, and they're the thing which made me drop the game. What are you saying, man? Those stupid little mini-games dictate the whole match, basically invalidating everything else that happens. Who the hell wants to play dumb mini-games to get absurdly massive buffs or debuffs that make the game unplayable for the losing team? What's the point of the game having pvp if the way to win is to avoid teamfights? Teamfights are the only fun part of a fucking moba.
Sion hp stacking is cool. When you build Titanics your bonus hp from w get you bonus ad. This gets you easily 100 AD on titanic (and 1 AD per Krugs)
What you talked about in the end, about the no runes and no items but quests to complete, describes the Moba Heroes Of the Storm perfectly, and that's why I love playing it. Many Heroes can selected different quest to upgrade different abilities, or just choose a flat bonus but no quest.
Anyways great vid as always
14:06 "assasin were top tier: leblanc, kassadin, zed, talon, katarina, akali..." sound like s11 and the las 3 seasons to me with some sprinkles of champs that did not exist back then.
Nearly all those champs were reworked tho
@@cenfre2866 Reworked to new heighs of bs
truee
Removing Viktor hex core killed him for me. I loved that he had his item that was very powerful if you could prolong the game
He's much more powerful now, and I'm an old and current viktor mid main
I play Viktor nowadays, but didnt get the old Hex Core era. How was it? Did it scale if you prolonged the game or what?
@@kyzoc.4785 It was like a support item where you choose between 3( I think) and evove it for different stats and passives
What stats did they have? AP?
@@kyzoc.4785 Basically bonus ap based on level and bonus mana on which you upgrade it to upgrade your skills, on it's max upgrade was equivalent to deathcap with mana.
I'm glad they added the similar style of "quest" passives from HotS into LoL. They could do this to other older champs, where after doing X with a spell they gain bonuses that allows them to do additional stuff aka. The Aghanim method from Dota 2
That's pretty cool, the few quests we do have in league are interesting but completely lackluster. No one really cares about Rengar vs Kha rivalry or Senna vs Thresh, it doesn't really matter.
@@Exil22 aren't they actually called "events" on LoL wiki? The same thing as the Battle for Freljord, with Sejuani, Ashe and Lissandra on different teams?
I was thinking on the line of Butcher from Diablo or Lunara from WoW. If you don't know anything about them, give 'em a look. For all its faults, HotS had very good Hero designs which I can see easily implemented into LoL. Shame to see the game in its current state though.
As for putting something like an Aghanim scepter, I agree that it would be busted. Dota plays on the "if everything is busted, nothing is".Imagine a Kayn with benefits of both his blue and red form.
Edit: I know it's impossible, but I wish we had a champ like Abathur. Or if they added a micro heavy champ like Meepo or a champ that combines spells like Invoker
@@MrLolguy93 i 100% agree with that hots has an amazing take on different heroes. just look at deathwing and cho'gall who completely shake up the basic designs of moba characters. and look at heroes like alexstraza and blaze who in very different ways utilize the extra 'passive' button for great outcomes. for so long ive wanted a true companion champion in league, but im probably going to have to stick with rexxar, since riot cant even keep the current temporary companions bug- and yank-free
when it comes to abathur though, look at yuumi. even though yuumi is horrible addition to the league roster (in my humble opinion), she does fill the roll of ab's e spam build. and also with how prevalent the hunter runes are it would be a mistake to add something like ab. it's already a pain when you accidentally pick the "kill all 5 heroes" quest as zul'jin when facing ab
@@Axelovskji yeah, Misha is still kinda clunky to play to this day
@@MrLolguy93 a bit, but im very happy still
The suggestion of removing items and runes to focus more on champion kits is something HOTS actually does really well (it has a lot of problems outside of that, don't get me wrong) but it is something I'd like to see!
came here to comment this
Your final thougt would make an interesting rotating game mode, where there is no items and every champ has missionlike stacking kits
Would be interesting to see him make an RGM
I think it's really cool that they're bringing these kinds of mechanics back. I was a really old Cassiopeia Top main back when she had her stacking mechanic and it felt infinitely better to build that up and feel a sense of achievement that had a real impact than pretty much anything else in the game has now. Season 11 did a lot of good and a lot of bad, but the neutering of Seraph's Embrace's utility was one of the biggest mistakes.
On a more serious note, I'm hoping this is them dipping their toes in the water of extending game times a little bit and adding more comeback mechanics, since that's a lot of the time what Stacking can allow. Whether or not I'm right is to be seen but I hope we see more mini-reworks or new champions with things like this since it makes playing a champion a lot of fun because it gives a sense of achievement and lets the player have some security for the late game if they fell behind early.
I'd love to see Rengar do more weird and interesting things again as a main. Just getting some extra AD is often so inconsequential during gameplay that I forget about my passive entirely and never focus on trying to stack it. It's not like Rengar needs extra damage with these new items. Hell I care more about the fact that I'll get ravenous hunter stacks than bonetooth!
true, old bonetooth was something worth taking risks for. current one is just like the domination runes, it'll stack up eventually as the game progresses
@The_damag3 & The spy LoL need to cut numbers, both in DMG and healing/shield. Like, it's getting to Heroes of the Storm levels of healing and shielding in this.
@@augustoemmel4333 yeah i mean ive never seen this much fucking bullshit lol, i have only known "number creep" in other multiplayer games, such as say, World of Warcraft where numbers would be like, 500.000 a late game damage spell and some nonsense like that, but the game was still like, balanced yknow, but shit like league, where numbers are just going up and up and you die before blinking at least once 8 out of 10 games, its just fucking insanity
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
videos like this make me miss season 4-6 league so much. That really was the golden era of league
Been playing Sona since season 1. With a few million mastery points, I can say I know everything about Sona. Her issues have always been weak abilities early game, horrible mana costs, never safe when warding, and super squshie. The fact that her abilities require her to be in the thick of team fights to make use of the aura effects exacerbates the squishie problem. This is why I almost always bought RoA and Staff on her previously. RoA helped solve the mana, and survivability issues in conjunction with tear -> staff. I know a lot of Sona players didn't take RoA, but basically everyone thought the champ was trash because without RoA her issues made her extremely un-fun to play. Even now, I have played her far less this season than other seasons because of the removal of RoA without really giving her anything. The new scaling mechanic for giving her more ability haste really has not solved the core issue she has.
Sona has always been a mage enchanter. Still is. She has better AP scaling still than other enchanters. Before many of her damage nerfs, she had the potential to outscale in damage any champ except nasus or veigar. 1K AP allowed for 5K damage burst outputs very easily. RoA + Staff + Deathcap = 1K+ AP with the right runes. Literally could 1 shot any squishie late game while still being fairly tanky to deal with assassins. Add in a Zhonyas for assassins after that and there wasn't a champ that could fight Sona 1v1 late game.
The latest rework for her didn't solve her issues. She still has mana problems, crappy rank 1/2 baseline ability usage, and is squishier than jello. At least her W mana costs is only slightly bad instead of utterly bad to use. Until the mini rework, the 105 base mana cost for a 25 point heal was laughable. Still, her heal is mostly useless until later when items can help deal with the mana cost and she has enough ranks in the ability to make it actually useful as a heal/shield.
Like most Sona players. I had jumped ship to play Seraphine. For awhile she really was Sona but way better. Then they nerfed her to hell and I had to basically give up on Seraphine. So back to mage supports only like most support players these days. Sona is not over tuned at all. She still has bad early game, and her late game DAMAGE and healing scaling is far lower than what it used to be. The only really somewhat nice thing they added is that her Q now can hit unseen targets so warding is slightly safer.
Yeah I was a Sona main for a long time I feel ya man
Sona still good but janna is better
a few years back, i made the defect from slay the spire into a champ and he had 3 ults which you could only pick one at level 6 and stick with it the whole game and all his base abilities had some kind of mision that when it was accomplished, would give a minor buff to that ability, all his abilities generated orbs and all orbs made their passive effect every couple of seconds, as an example, his Q was a skillshot that would give him a lightning orb if he hit someone, completing the quest would make it so the passive effect of lightning orb (which is basically old blitz R passive) would be in an area and if only one enemy was hit, the damage would be doubled
shit was crazy and never really thought about how broken he would be with 5 items
I just want to say that I'm been watching your video for relaxation, and somehow it works really well! Keep up good work man
Thank you! I am happy that you can get entertainment and relaxation from the videos. If I can help people, then I am happy.
What you forget to say about old Cassio is, back then you were punished much harder for Using E on a non-poisened Enemy.
The Cooldown was about 6 seconds and reduced on poisened enemys to 0,5 sec.
So 4,5 sec more CD, when you miss to poisin your target.
If they actually do this again or revert it they gotta make it alot more rewarding then what it is rn with that CD lol. (Hitting the poison
Funnily enough, I haven't seen a SINGLE sona in any of my games since her rework.
Unrelated, I don't understand how the old champ spotlights are still the only ones for certain champs. It's just one of those things riot refuses to care about.
that pawnce video clip for the viktor update, THAT’S a real veteran call out! what a blast from the past
YES!! I'm so stressed right now with my personal life and this just made it better. Also thank you so much for adding me on league exil, I would absolutely love to play with you sometime ❤
Thanks for the kind words brother, sorry to hear about personal life stuff, I know it can be so hard. And absolutely we can play sometime!
The way you are talking about evolving ability without items/runes sounds a lot like heroes of the storm
As a cass main, i love seeing her getting some attention in any form, this vid overall was super interesting as always tho!
20:50 Dying with bonetooth removes 1 stack, out of 20. You get 1 back per kill or assist. Dying with Mejais removes 10 stacks, you get 4 back per kill, 2 per assist. You need 2 kills and an assist per death. This does not at all compare to rengar, who just had to assist, even after death, to stay even.
I never said they were exactly the same, have the exact same amount of risk, and are a 1:1 comparison. The point being it's still risk vs reward simply because you can gain AND lose stacks. 99% of league stacking systems only allow you to gain. That's all bro.
@@Exil22 I never said you said they were the exact same either. You just said they were both risk rewards, when rengar barely risks anything at all. Especially when the bonetooth necklace 2.0 removed the stackloss on death, as did the 3.0 trinket. Dying with mejais costs you a very heavy amount, dying with rengars bonetooth necklace is barely a scratch. You'd have to die 20 times in a row without getting an assist to be at the same place you were if you died 3 times with mejais, even with 2 assists.
@@Zero_Shift "when rengar barely risks anything at all" so would I be correct that you are saying that both items are indeed risk and reward items? I can buy bitcoin or I can buy mecha doge trump coin. They are very different things, but they are both crypto. You are correct in your assessment of the differences between the two items in your first reply, but it misses the point that he isn't saying they are similar in degree of risk vs reward but that they are indeed the same type of item.
@@j.asmrgaming1228 A 10/1 zed diving a 0/10 adc is still a "risk" but in reality it's such a tiny risk that calling it that makes it seems ridiculous. Dying with mejais is such a huge setback while dying with bonetooth is just one assist away from getting it back.
@@Zero_Shift I'm not arguing the degrees of risk. It might seem ridiculous, but it is what it is. a second is an amount of time a million years is an amount of time, dying due to a car crash =death dying while choking on a lifesaver = death regardless of how different or ridiculous those things are they are still the same type of thing. I can put my money in a government bond which will be paid back unless the government collapses, or i could put my money in mecha doge coin which has about a 99% chance of failing and me losing my money and yet both are forms of risk vs reward.
I don't even have faith in riot's methods of changing the game. Hell, I don't even respect the balance and design team.
But hey, I'm just a dude who's salty about riot and the things they add.
I don't have faith either, but what they've done with the reworks this season is interesting, that's why I chose this topic.
@@Exil22 Dude, I'm honestly amazed how most of riot's balance and design still have a job.
What the hell is a "good job" if the things they did and add is nothing but a toxic environment for the players?
@@warlis4767 the question is, can you balance them yourself
@@kepler4192 Balancing? Heck no.
Designing? Probably yes. I'm a designer myself.
@@warlis4767 that already shows that balancing 150+ champs while maintaining their fun aspect is extremely difficult, also league is not a perfect game, so it’s impossible to make a change that the 100% of the players would like
I love the Kindred stacking passive for the skill level it gives you
On a basic level, you can prioritize ganking your marked target and run to the marked camp
But when you know to track the enemy jungler with it, predict which camp is getting marked next, and marking an enemy for mindgames, you get on a whole other level
As a Seraphine main and Sona player, I always hate when people compare, I play both regularly and they are VERY different. I just wanted to let that out xd Love your videos
they really aren't but each person has their own opinion and that's ok! thanks so much for the kind words though :D
@@Exil22 in practice the mindset between a sera and sona player might still differ a bit in aspects like positioning and ability orders, since they still do slightly different things at the end of the day. but looking at it on paper, they're still only hairs removed from being carbon copies. it's definitely an interesting bit to think about.
they do the same thing but I do think they are different. The easiest way to explain it is that seraphine is an artillery enchanter while sona is a battle mage enchanter, they differ heavily in range and that gives sona WAY higher hps in exchange for shorter range
Infinite scaling is my favorite mechanic in the game... There's just something about the power fantasy of slowly becoming stronger and stronger until you're some sort of unbeatable eldritch god
Having a stacking item like mejai's for AD champ's seem's like a good idea...
that's exactly what sword of the occult was, which unlike rengar's old bonetooth was available for everybody. unfortunately it got removed at some point.
Yeah no, the thing with Mejai is that few ap characters abuse it while being REALLY safe, if we had an AD mejai (again) imagine champions like Camille, Riven, Fiora just abusing the shit out of it while never dying again
th-cam.com/video/48VGqq6g9FI/w-d-xo.html ----> Fiora Montage League of Legends Best Fiora Montage 2021)
Maybe everytime you level R on GP you get one of those R upgrades. And then have silver serpents give you more barrels or some shit.
as a sona main in gm i can tell you that the rework is barely noticeable. u are slightly better lvl 9-10
I believe you even spend more mana with this rework, and it bearly compensates for the R old passive, once you get all stacks and you start reducing the cooldown of your R with passive, then finally theres a MINIMUM benefit over pre mini rework sona, but overall this was a nerf
@@luisgerardobujandalopez4994 I don't think it was a nerf or a buff just a change. Sona now gets to her decent mid-late game faster at the cost of having a slightly worse late game. That said in game her R refund mechanic is close to useless as you still only get 1 per team fight and by the time you get it back again there's usually nothing to use it for because either their team is dead or you are.
I still feel like the stacking mechanic at full stacks could have improved other parts of her kit.
@@bluepanda8004 i mean back in season 9 sona had way better scalings and way more ways to get gold (better spell thiefs, klepto) and she was sitting at 50-51% winrate... right now she just turbo scales with the support items because she uses them best of all supports. you can trigger moonstone on cd and let your team perma apply grivious wounds, which is super good in the current meta. if they nerf goredrinker sona winrate will drop
"Like trying to play ADC the whole time but without A-click ever existing"
So like how I play ADC then?
Just seeing the notification about your video makes my day better :P
I do remember that Zed also had an AD scaling on his ult if I am not mistaken everytime he uses it and it kills somebody he gains like 5 AD I guess
Ah yes, the highest quality league videos. *sips wine*.
Thank you for making another harsh day entirely rounded off by smooth production.
Love you glad I can help
@@Exil22
That champ spotlight was incredible
LOL it's glorious
Are you ever going to make a video on braum as a perfect tank supp
Maybe! He's pretty interesting. I think since his release he is the most picked champion in pro play across all seasons? Something like that? It's a cool topic
Yo I've been keeping an eye out for a video for the last few days, I had a feeling it was coming and here it is
Your spidey senses were tingling :)
@@Exil22 ikr
Judging by Cho's ult being most popular choice in Ultimate Spellbook, I would say folks like doing stuff that grows their champ during the game
really love the vids man, dont play league that much anymore because life happens you know but as soon as i get a notification that you've put out a new vid i watch it immediately!
Hey
Ok but you're hacking though because you actually were here 4 seconds after the video went live... You're CRACKED man
@@Exil22 my mans was here before the video even went live you just didn't notice him
@@Exil22 dude, I was commenting on another video so clicked late.... imagine clicking even faster lol
You forgot to mention that Sona became popular in the meta when perma-roam support toplaners became popular.
I like how in the conclusion, Exil is basically talking about what Heroes of the Storm did with Quests.
HotS doesn't have all the same mechanics as LoL (ie there is no item shop), instead, every ~3 lvls you get to choose an upgrade to your base kit, those upgrades can be quests which is basically a little stacking mini game that function like LoL's stacking.
But since it's directly tied to your champion and you can't get items, the game can allow itself to permanently (or not) enhance the kit of the champion.
For example, Kel Thuzad has an innate quest where he has to land his E (basic skill shot that can be recast after it touches someone to stun them and get them together, basically Zac Q but only skillshots) 15 times to get a new ability that can spawn a spike which is a valid E target, basically making his combos (that are a core part of his kit) easier and more consistent. He also gets 75% more magic damage after hitting E 30 times total.
Basically HotS can do cool stuff with its champions because it doesn't have an equivalent of the LoL items system
The stacking mechanic I find most fun is actually not an infinite one, it’s Darius five stack. I like it because it kind of makes up the entire identity of your kit, and you have to get it every time you fight if you want to go god mode. I find it a lot more engaging than infinitely stacking passives that last the whole game and mostly accrue just by existing and doing stuff you would do anyways.
On your last point - Heroes of the Storm, while now a defunct game, had that built into it from the get go. The game doesn't have Items or Runes, so all of a character's scaling is within their kit. many Heroes have quest giving talents that do exactly as you propose Anivia might. Arthas has a root that begins with a ground targeting zone, but eventually upgrades in range, applies a slow in the line between you and the targeted zone, and then applies a root in that zone instead. There are so many interesting concepts in Heroes of the Storm that I wish it were done by a better company, and not entirely cast aside like trash.
I wish a team dedicated to mobas would step up and fill the gap. There has to be a middle ground between item choices and individual talents and character progression to create a moba out of, but there's currently nobody in that space. HotS fails because it was created as blizzard kinda as a cash in, but also because it focuses TOO much on teamfighting and objective play.
What you described at the end is literally the quest talent system which heroes of the storm has. If you are interested in that, just look at there. But it wasnt too popular there as well. Some of them were fine but many of them just resulted in a degenrate playstyle. There were some which you may have never been able to complete in a game.
Like lets check some notorious ones:
Alarak: skill E, a laser which is point on click but hits everyone between alarak and the target. Lv1 talent: hit 2 enemies for dmg hit 3 (without the target) for range, hit 4 (so basicly the whole enemy team, one targeted and 4 in the way, tho it could be casted on minions as well) for some other op stuff like Dmg + Halfing the CD. For the last you needed extreme luck and skill to ever get it.
Alarak talent on lv4 or 7: rite of rak’sir: alarak had a passive called sadism which gave extra spell dmg and usually used for talents for trading dmg for utility. Rite of raksir decreased the base sadism by 20 but you could increase it by every ability hit by 4 without cap but loosing all upon dying. Which at pro hands made it broken and able to get even 5-600% ability damage. But for the most, you basicly lost 20% dmg and struggled since alarak was one of the hardest champs.
Most notorious example: the butcher with the fresh meat passive. Thr butcher was s bursty dive heavy hero, without any escape or defense (had some self healing but early it didnt worth much). Enemies dying near the butcher would drop 20 fresh meat, each fresh meat giving 1 AD upon collection but loosing 5, then after nerf, 10 upon dying. After collecting 200, gaining extra 50 AD, not loosing any upon dying and infinitely stacking. Sounds good but on reality, he was essentially useless for the half of the game at least. But for the whole if you were focused down a few times. But in the 5% when you could complete it early? Oh boi. But for this, even in norms or aram picking him was considered trolling.
But in the end, many quests got reworked or removed or made easier but less impactfull because they incited degenrate playstyles and made the heroes extremly feast or famine that you were worthless and focused down but a demigod if you could complete it.
The only one which was kind of okay the orb collextion which was like that every minion wave and jungle camp dropped a globe which restored a bit hp and mana and collecting 20-30 of them was the quest. You picked up those anyway so eventually you finished them. But these were usually for a bit of utility which wasnt game breaking.
Awww, that Ciderhelm clip brought a tear to my eye
There is a game that has the scenario you mentioned with Riven. Heroes of the Storm. No items or runes, the entire team is the same level, and every few levels you pick up a talent that augments your abilities (picking a choice of ultimates at level 10 with few exceptions). Some of those talents even had “quests” attached to them where doing certain things would give buffs! My favorite would be Chromie who can pick up a talent at level 1 that requires her to hit her Q, a long range thin skill shot that can hit minions, against enemy heroes 40 times. To aid her in this she has an echo that stands where she was and casts the ability with her with less than half damage. If she does it she got a second Echo! It was an incredible damage boost
What you talked about at the end of your video sounds a lot like what the upgrade system is for Heroes of the Storm
I would love to see a video on Swain. I think his lore is amazing. His rework has been quite a chance from the old and your video's are very well made. It would be a threat for me, a big one. I keep my fingers crossed until I know you'll make a video on him! That said, keep up the good work!
Dude, always love your videos. Some of, if not the highest quality league videos on YT. This was excellent. The topic of scaling champions with their own abilities would be so good for the game. Imagine getting stronger because you are good at playing your champion? what a concept
i'm addicted to league,don't have many friend and my life is rather bad than good,atleast you are here for me exil.
I always will be friend! Keep your head up, health is wealth.
New mechanics introduced to champs through natural match progress
So like, Heores of the Storm talents
The kind of ways that you talked about champions evolving, is what basically Heroes of the Storm had. A lot of heroes, if not all, had talents that involved in hitting multiple times people with certain skills or killing an amount of units, getting health globes, etc... It made stack fun, skilled. Then again, Heroes of the Storm did not have items, so everything was balanced on the talents that you chose. It was more focused on mechanics of the maps rather than other things.
finally someone talks about og viktor, there isnt a single video on youtube about all his past versions before S5, like he was never actually reworked
I mained viktor back in the day and always upgraded E because the item itself gave a bunch of AP and it was good for waveclear/teamfights. Also there was a bug with his ult that made him secretly OP where if you mashed R it would cast 2 chaos storms at once for double dmg but you could only move one of them with subsequent casts.
The thing u talked bout at the end there, upgrading spells and stuff, HotS kinda had this system with the talentquests sometimes, and I loved the shit out of it
You should make a video about Crowd Control, but more specifically, obscure Crowd Control. Like Victors W has what i believe is the rarest type of CC, not the stun, but along with the stun it is a Knock Down, knocking down enemies who are knocked up. I cannot think of 1 other ability that does this, i could be wrong, but i'm fairly certain it's the only one.
Not sure if it fits the idea but Orianna's ult maybe does something slightly similar but quicker (and damaging ofc)?
I love the way they implemented Senna's stacking: her passive flat nerfs her crit damage and her attack speed is abysmal. It mostly doesnt affect her power since she starts the game with 0 crit chance, but instead it nerfs a whole class of items which is the one she would be supposed to build (the adc crit and attack speed items !). That way we as a player have to DESERVE the stacking mechanic before getting the scaling benefits catching up to an average power level, while we also have the choice to work around that innate nerf building item form a completely different class (mostly bruiser or assassin nowadays, but we also seen Senna build tank or enchanter in the past). I think it's a very interesting way to design stacking, and it opens a whole realm of theory crafting new creative builds revolving around gold efficiency instead of kit synergy
You're absolutely right about how gangplank serpents should enable cool bits of all of his kit, not just his ult. Imagine if you could buy a second pistol, and get two charges of his q that work like vel'koz w
thats what dota made with one item called aghanim scepter and shard that either upgraded all skills or gave new one.
Swain scaling is definitely more subtle but it is impactful. It's a slow grind but when you're in a 40 min game 100+ stacks is a huge difference from 0 stacks at the start of the game. 500 bonus health may not seem like alot but consider the fact that this is doubled while using his R + an additional 275 hp at lvl 16 and suddenly your looking at 1275+ bonus hp on a champion that is constantly draining hp from up to 5 champions. It makes getting the full duration on your R possible which means you're also getting the full damage. Assuming he gets the full 12 second duration with 400 ap against all 5 enemy champions Swain will deal 7200 magic damage from drain and an additional 7300 from Demonflare. Thats an astounding 14500 raw magic damage not including the burn from his liandry's or demonic embrace. Keep in mind that this is all passive damage that swain can get from his R; he can still get a ridiculous amount of damage from the rest of his kit as well. In my opinion swain has the most valuable ultimate in true 5v5 team fights because if they fight you directly they are simply going to lose meaning they are forced to play around your ult which gives you complete space control in a fight.
All the stacking mechanics and stuff like "Kill X champs with that" are a thing in HotS and is called Quests
It's one of the mechanics I enjoy the most there, but I'm not sure they will fit as well in League as a common mechanic
*I think riot should try to change the level mechanic. Maybe so at higher level more stats are given to the ability. For example, so traditionally you could max out your main ability as soon as possible but with this mechanic you could hold on and wait until lvl 11 or 16 and gain better stats for your ability. So by holding on and maxing out your main ability til after lvl 16 would give you a decent powerspike Idk just a thought, just so you don't have to max your main ability asap every single game.*
Champion evolutions would be so cool, it's my favorite part about legends of runeterra and is why I play that over other card games.
Also Cass' E only used to reset if the enemy was already poisoned, so if you didn't wait until her Q or W actually started to tick on the enemy your Twin Fang would have a 5 second cooldown.
My mans starts a video with runescape music and I'm just hooked
You know it's gonna be a good documentary when you hear a Runescape soundtrack.
The amount of work you have put into this video... Much appreciated, Exil, great job!
Thanks so much Marc
i find it pretty funny that the recommendation for how the game should change is change the item system into heroes of the storms talent/quest system (not literally but on a theoretical level)
8:28 i never expected to watch a knekro video in this chanel. Pog
Man listening to that RuneScape background music really brings me back to the glory days of RuneScape
I'm forgetting where I saw it, but I recall that they considered giving Viego a Blade of the Ruined King item that would get stronger throughout the game
Great video as usual! Just one thing: the transition from the part about Kindred to the part about Sona felt a bit strange. Maybe a short pause would have been nice there.