I think I’m going to make a separate video discussing the difference between a song, and music. I want to clarify more of what I meant here, and then maybe it’ll make a little more sense. Hate me if you want though, idc. Also just wanna say, I’ve gotten a lot of good criticism that I appreciate! It really does help me, I want to make some more video essays in this style where it’s not as controversial lol.
Looking forward to your next video, you have some good points. Like Wyvrns asked why don't people dance to orchestral music in the club but they do to wap, it's because wap was created to be a danceable and catchy club hit, while orchestral music is not. As for video game music not doing anything new I disagree I could be wrong but I feel like the Doom remake 100% had an effect on the metal genre at least amongst indie producers. And retro game music 100% had a major effect on the soundcloud hiphop scene especially in the mid 2010s.
I think your assertion that a piece of software being used makes it somehow inferior to "real instruments" is a kinda insane statement when there ARE legit genres that don't have a single traditional instrument in them with plenty of resonance in people. A ton of rap is like that, electronica is like that, friggin weird shit like breakcore does that, all just as valid and passionate as anything that would be composed with physical instruments. I think that's a pretty narrow way to view things personally 🤷 EDIT: Yeesh that was a lot of spelling and grammar errors
this video is so under researchedand poorly worded all music produced today use software, only enthusiast who want to make things like the old days don't most of the top charting music from all genres use software instruments as well, even movies and tv shows why waste money on an orchestra when you can have one guy on a piano compose a whole realistic sounding piece with a sample library
I see what you’re saying, I should’ve clarified what I meant in my video more. I’m making a new one that hopefully shows what I mean a little more as well, but I appreciate the criticism (:
Ok so i wrote a 2100 word text debunking everything you said so it's gonna be divided in multiple parts Intro (1/1) I disagree a lot with your view but i believe it’s just because you don’t have any music education and don’t really know what you’re talking about, so i’m gonna go over every point and explain why you’re wrong, but please try going into this wanting to change opinion, try to see things differently. Also since this is the internet and it’s by text and you cant get the emotion of speech through it I must precise i’m doing this by compassion, so dont read this text as something hateful or with a superior tone, it’s only good intentions. I'm truly passionate about the subject and just want to share my passion. Hope you will try to give Video Game Music a chance and see it as a medium that deserves respect
First Argument (1/1) We’ll start with the first point, video game music can’t tell a story. You’re going over this point really quickly in the video but it seems the general idea is discussed more in depth in your third part about meaning, so there are some things i'm gonna answer here and others later in the comment, might also repeat myself at some point later on. So your main point about this is that because it’s used for a certain context someone who never played the game couldn’t at least get an idea of what the music is trying to say. By saying that modern music can tell a story I guess you’re talking about lyrics, but there is a difference between music and lyrics, while music is the instruments, the voice etc… The lyrics are closer to poetry and I will go back on why lyrics don't matter later in the third part of this comment. But without storytelling music can still share emotions and ideas of what is happening. I'm gonna take for example the song Sealed Vessel by Christopher Larkin for the Hollow Knight soundtrack. The song starts by building anticipation, it’s quiet but then strings come in and start building tension letting now a more normal boss fight theme take place, it’s a dynamic orchestral piece that keeps this idea of tense situation through its composition whether it’s through functional harmony, counterpoints, the technique used on certain instruments. The song then proceeds to change completely now it’s just a string ensemble playing a tense melody, we get a progression of tension the violins go higher and higher, choirs start joining, something tragic is happening, we get to the climax where now the full orchestra comes back putting an end to this moment of horror that you can clearly feel through the music. Then comes the calm after the storm, a piano playing a hopeful melody but still with a touch of sadness, nostalgia maybe, concluding this story. While there were no lyrics, you can still grasp the idea behind this song, it starts preparing us for something big, this big thing happens, it’s a tense moment, then suddenly it becomes tragic, and then it concludes on a peaceful sad note. And you don’t need to know anything about music to feel and understand that, i know because i showed it to over 20 people and they all could get the concept without any explanation, but that’s just a general idea of it without going deeper and into all the music theory details in the composition that show even more how well thought, this piece is. I would recommend you check out Davi Vasc’s channel, he is a game composer who reacts to video game music he’s never heard before, he manages to guess everything about the story just by listening to the soundtrack without ever playing the game. You should watch his video on Sealed Vessel, he talks about the points i just explained here but also goes deeper, also when he talks about music theory he makes it super simple so that everyone can understand what he’s talking about. (Keep in mind also that he doesn't see the game footage on screen in his videos, he goes into it completely blind).
Argument between the 1st and second (1/1) Now before addressing your second point i'm gonna go back to a topic i feel you didn't do justice to, when defining what make a good song you said an emotional reaction of some sort is needed, well you can get different emotions in video game music. Listen to Mice on Venus by C418 for the Minecraft soundtrack, and tell me you didn't feel any profound emotion. Listen to The Only Thing They Fear is You by Mick Gordon for the Doom soundtrack and try not to headbang. Without context you can still feel something from video game music, because at the end of the day it’s music at the same level as any other genre.
Argument 2 (1/1) Ok time for the second point, How they use the instruments, now that’s where it seems you start getting confused and don't really know what you’re talking about. First the point of the computer not being a tool for making music is out of the debate because you seemed to realize in your pinned comment your mistake. But you dug yourself into an even bigger hole with this pinned comment so imma go over every point. For the first argument that since it’s made using programs it doesnt deserve as much respect as modern music, you just invalidated a huge part of today’s music, not even gonna talk about Electro music because there you would have a heart attack lol. Even big artists don't bother using real instruments anymore, if anything video game music and film music are single handedly keeping orchestras alive because most of them use real instruments now, we’ll go back to this later btw. But i wanted to talk about the point that “it CANNOT be replayed or performed live”, excuse me, what???? I seriously don’t get what you’re trying to say, Brawlman64 wrote a comment against that saying that even music that doesn't use real instruments is performed live, and you seemed to not understand. So imma go over it again, while some OSTs like Undertale or old Final Fantasy games used chiptunes and soundfonts, they were still played live a lot, Undertale had a 5th anniversary Orchestra live, and Final Fantasy has Distant world, which you should look into, would recommend One Winged Angel from FF7 the distant world version. For the second point that it feels roboty, idk what you’re talking about here, if you’re talking about the chiptune like for old games then that’s just historical context and I'm gonna go back over this topic in a bit. But if you’re talking about actual VSTs not sounding like real instruments you’re nitpicky because there’s no way a person with so little music knowledge would be able to tell the difference. Now back to the chiptune sound. This sound was either due to the limits of technology at the time or nowadays is a stylistic choice that should be respected, because in the end music isn’t about the instruments but the talent and this musical talent isn’t just reserved to playing an instrument but also music writing and composition, and in term of writing someone like Nobuo Uematsu is leagues above let’s say Bob Marley, it’s not even comparable, i mean just listen to Dancing Mad from FF6 it’s a piece of music at the same level as classical composers like Bach Beethoven Mozart etc… there’s just so much more than instrument playing in music. Now for the third point that it lacks collaboration i don't even know what to say, enough people talked about it in the comments so i don't feel like it’s something worth going deep into if not to say that classical music lacks collaboration too, and many solo artists write their stuff alone, even in bands it can be just one person writing everything, look at the band Boston. Something I also saw you talking about in the comments is that you can't compare VGM composers with classical composers because classical composers made their songs with real instruments. Well no, classical composers made their songs with paper and just a piano most of the time so by your logic we should respect video games composers more than classical, because at least VGM composers use more instruments during the writing, yet this reasoning is simply wrong and just proves your whole argument doesn’t work. And if you meant that classical work is played by real instruments well so can video game music with the live example I gave earlier. I talked enough about fake instruments so now let's talk about real ones. I won't go over the composition again because i already talked about it so i'm just gonna recommend you some VGM with real instruments and awesome composition. Ascension from FF16 and also Away (Ifrit Vs Phoenix) from the same game both composed by Masayoshi Soken, these are epic orchestral works. Now for something different, Ludwig the Holy Blade by Yuka Kitamura for Bloodborne, this song with an epic boss theme also presents a story but i'm not gonna go in details over it because i still have to cover your third and last argument and i'm getting tired of writing. But you should maybe check out Marco Meatball’s series where he shows VGM to people who have never heard anything from the genre before but are classical musicians, like Opera Singer, Classical Composers, Opera Conductors, etc… Every Time he shows Ludwig’s theme even the people who don’t respect the genre recognize how good and well made this song is. But the entire series as a whole is really interesting to watch to see the different opinions and POVs
Argument 3 and conclusion (1/1) Now for the third and last argument which is about meaning in songs. You talk about Ghosts that we Knew, and say that no video game music can tell a story like that, well to that i will give you one example out of many, Sealed Vessel. Now you’re gonna say that even with what i talked about at the start if you didn’t play the game you can just get a general idea of the story but not the full story of The Hollow Knight and how tragic his life is but that’s exactly the point im trying to make. Lyrics don’t matter, they’re the same as needing to play the game to fully get a soundtrack, because if you listen to a song for the first time your focus isn’t gonna be understanding the lyrics, to actually fully understand what a song is about you need to do some research, or someone tells you about it. It’s exactly the same as VGM, but even less accessible because in order to understand lyrics you need to speak the language, music doesn't have this problem hence music and lyrics being something different and separate. Music has no barrier, everyone can understand it, and when you talk about the part of the song where he sings “promise me we’ll be alright” and does it happily, the reason it’s happy is clearly not because of the lyrics but because of the composition. The song is in the Key of C Major, to make it simple major keys are happy, but here most of the melodies are sung in the relative minor of the key which is A minor, a minor key sounds sad. But when he says the line one last time he finally sings in the “right” key which is C major and hence sounds happy. So basically there is no difference between modern music and VGM, both are accessible and relatable to everyone and share a story, a meaning. It seemed you only considered songs with lyrics to be real music, which would mean you don't have respect for instrumentals either, but that would dismiss genres like House/electro like Contact by Daft Punk, Jazz with a lot of instrumentalists, Django Reinhardt, Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale, Guthrie Govan etc… btw talking about jazz and electro there’s a lot of footage in your video from Dave the Diver which has a soundtrack that takes influence from both genres so by saying you don't respect this soundtrack you’re not respecting the genres either. And here’s the thing: Video Game Music isn’t a genre, it’s a medium and that’s what makes the beauty of it. When you say VGM didn’t revolutionize anything you’re wrong, because it’s the only medium where music knows no boundaries, in the same soundtrack you could get Djent, followed by Baroque, then Jazz, then electro, to some Trap maybe. There are no genre barriers, which gives the artist complete freedom, compared to other bands/artists who often need to stay in a genre otherwise they get shit on. Not saying modern musicians dont break barriers either, Daft Punk did it in Random Access Memories, and so did Avenged Sevenfold in their latest album Life is But a Dream…, and Mr Bungle completely don’t give a fuck a bout the rules lol. But it’s not something really common, which makes video game music special. Thanks for reading and I hope your views have changed even just a bit.
I think after watching this, a big reasoning for this disagreement is that no singular person can relate to every relatable thing at once. Relatability isn't something that can be measured on a scale. It's something that connects with us as individuals. Now emotion itself is a more proven element that I've seen done extremely well in almost every genre of music (Even ones I don't relate to), but that's why emotion is a little bit different than relatability. YOU may not relate to video game music, but WE do. I'll even take an example from your video here. You said you don't relate to the main theme from The Legend of Zelda; I do. It's the embodiment of adventure to me. I could easily imagine myself in Link's shoes exploring Hyrule, armed with a sword and shield, exploring the ins and outs of Hyrule in my quest. There's other Zelda compositions I feel the same way about, like Hyrule field from Ocarina of Time. I do not relate to a musician like Taylor Swift, but I don't believe most of her songs are objectively bad. It relates to a ton of people, just not me, and so I would never criticize it's relatability just because I myself don't understand it. But I think you do this with videogame music. You don't relate to it so you say the art itself is less relatable. That's just not the case. For the emotion argument, I'd be useful for me to tell you that video game emotion is more abstract than detailed. This doesn't make it incoherent; it makes it creative. But in fact the abstract-ness of the emotion is what helps make it relatable to us. It's why I can hear The Legend of Zelda Theme and go "Now this is the epitome of Adventure." I think you only like the surface level emotion found in your average modern music which is fine. With videogame music, you have to think more out of the box about it. Videogame music isn't trying to compete with the same kind of emotion as other music, and whether or not it's background music doesn't retort the amazing elements that composers use in this industry. I think if you knew more about what makes videogame music great you would have more of a reason to respect it. Re-occurring melodies and fragments that are found in hundreds of different game franchises (ex. Mitsuda's Lick, a fragment found in the Zelda franchise, Kirby franchise, Undertale, Chrono franchise, Final Fantasy franchise, Pokemon franchise, ect,) Compositions that heavily stress leitmotifs added to create incredible emotional moments to the composition (ex. Colgera theme, Tears of the Kingdom, Radagon's theme, Elden Ring, (Final boss) theme, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, ect,) Or how videogame music uses emotional chord progressions and sequences that express emotion whether or not it's made with a tangible instrument or a computer software (There's no harmonical difference.) Anyway I was gonna yap even longer about how I valiantly disagree about the instrument segment but I think I'd just get a ton of "Ain't reading allat"
There's a segment in my own video where I question the relatability of a few songs, but this was only a hypothetical response analogy designed to show the problem with critiquing music based on relatability alone, and it doesn't signify how I would actually critique a composition in practice.
I believe emotion can be in video game music too, I just think it’s only effective if you have played the game. Otherwise it can sound sad, but that’s about it. Still good though, I just think Video Game music (obviously) relies on the game, where as other music relies on itself. I find this to be an advantage. I should have clarified more about when I was talking about the meaning in the LoZ theme, because I agree. I think it does represent adventure because it have played the games. What I was trying to say was that there’s never been a video game soundtrack that can be extremely personal. Here’s an example my dad gave me: “Last example: Bob Marley will forever represent an entire generation, from a specific point in history. I can listen to it in 50 years and still feel exactly what people were going through. Video game music doesn’t speak to anything that transcends time like that. The score for Elden ring will always just be the score to Elden ring. Not saying it’s not good, just that’s all it is.” That’s what I meant in that part of the video. I believe it’s possible to relate to video game music, but has never got to the same level as other types of music. And I respect whatever level of music in that regard is better, more. I appreciate you letting me use you in the video, and maybe I am wrong about all of this, I’ll have to see (;
@@Landooras someone that knows a bit about psychology, listening to music while going through, say, a happy experience, anytime you go back to listen to that same song, regardless of the new context, people tend to remember those happy memories that they experienced while previously listening to the music, this obviously also applies to video game music, so video game music has the ability to bring up happy or nostalgic memories even years down the line, in that sense, video game music can make that transcendence for individuals, let’s say you played a game and had a really really fun time with it, and 20 or 30 years down the line you go back and listen to that music, your mind will bring up those feelings and make you happy, that is why video game music is special, non video game songs can do the same of course, but it mostly depends on what you were experiencing while you were listening to the music, that’s why for some a piece of music can make them happy and why others might not get why it makes them happy, it’s not just the music, it’s the feelings from memories that accompany the music, and that goes for all music
@@dreamareakoso3791I agree, but that doesn’t really contradict what I said. Like, I think certain songs have the ability to be relatable on a deep personal without the things you mentioned, like the feelings from the memories, whereas I feel the exact opposite with video game music. Basically, I believe songs have the power to be relatable on a personal deep level in multiple different ways, whereas I can’t say the same for video game music.
@@LandoorFor what your dad said, I think I can provide an example of video game music that defines an entire generation in a different way. Minecraft. Now, I've never listened to Bob Marley, to be honest I vastly prefer video game music to traditional music, but the old music of Minecraft specifically made by C418 still makes me feel the exact same emotions that I did 12 (Goddamn that's terrifying) years ago when I first put in the disk for the PS3 edition of the game. The childlike wonder and whimsy then is immaculately captured in the original track, and since then those emotions have evolved into a mix of melancholy and longing: nostalgia. Most people are at the age now where they have fond memories of the times back then, when everything seemed simple, when simple math was your biggest problem, when the world seemed brighter, and when the only thing you could think of after school was getting online with your friends for a fun time of playing with blocks and fighting monsters. Minecraft's music now at least allows me to feel an ounce of that same excitement and wonder that existed back then, before reminding me that, that time is over now. I'm older, I have more responsibilities, and though I can't experience those old memories again, I can go on to make new ones. TL:DR: Minecraft gives me an existential crisis
I saved this video to watch later because I thought it would make some interesting points... Nope. Just absolute utter nonsense. It's not even about having unpopular opinions, it's straight up talking without thinking or knowing.
Yes videogame music can tell stories. Most do. But also most of them are done in the instrumentals, where most people are not understand/understand fully l, not because they're dumb of course, but because the common joe doesn't know music theory. You give a classical musician a wordless theme music and they'll correctly guess a whole character or story arc with zero context given. But then we have Guilty Gear Strive that has both that and lyrics for every character theme.
I'm an aspiring composer for visual media and I would like to give my perspective on this topic. You said that digital instruments are lesser than physical ones, but I disagree: they are very hard to master (you can look up how synths and orchestral libraries work) and, with a lot of practice, you can convey as much emotions with digital instruments as with physical ones. I say this as someone who plays guitar, piano and sings. Now the meaning. I listened to a lot of videogame soundtracks without having played the game and I promise that you CAN understand the atmosphere and the sense of the game just from that. I mean, if you listen carefully to Dark Souls' OST you can literally see abandoned cities, demons and desperation. Maybe you connect more with songs with lyrics and that's fine, I like music with lyrics too! But it's a bit reductive... A lot of instrumental music moves me on a deep level, from Tchaikovsky to Namless Song. The meaning is more abstract, but it's there. You just have to interpret it
Absolutely, when you get to the last movement you truly feel what he felt. Also the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture: I can't listen to it because I always tear up when the love theme strikes, it's so personal
i feel like being a pedant about defenitions is gonna get you nowhere in any argument. if you say that computer point in front of some random person, they're gonna think you're some pretentious asshole.
@@hotpocketsat2am I actually don’t necessarily mind if anyone thinks I’m a pretentious asshole, because I already knew going into this that everyone was going to disagree and hate me. And there’s a lot of good criticisms of my video in the comments as well, and I appreciate it. The reality is that I was using the definitions in the most logical way I could, and if I seem right I’m going to stick with that no matter who gets mad.
@@Landooryea bro it’s just bias. I personally kinda hate your favorite song ever. I think it’s composed boringly. That is bias. Even them i could prove it by showing the common chord progression and through the simple instrumentation. Your lack of understanding how music is made causes your bias to be your only thing that you say. Your thought hold less value due to the shallow lens they go through .
Personally I think there's a separation between 2 kinds of video game music, for the sake of categorisation I'll call them Ambient and Active. What we traditionally would consider Music would fall under the Active category, it can tell a story (my go to would be 'Father & Son' by Cat Stevens), capture a feeling ('Happy Pills' by The Weather or 'Animal' By Mudmen), or showcase musical prowess (Almost every song by Polyphia). I feel like video game music typically falls under the category of Ambient, Music that isn't designed to take over your mind but instead lend itself to a pre-established situation presented to you by the game (which is also why TV and Movie soundtracks would typically fall under this category). Because of this though, Ambient music has its uses, for instance I often listen to C418's Minecraft, Jeremey Souls Songs of Skyrim, or Motoi Sakaruba's Dark souls Soundtracks while I'm working since they support you while thinking about something else and don't distract you too much from your task. I think categorising all Video game music into this group of "Ambient" is also limiting since some video game music ascends to the "active" category either by their own merit or by just being good music, BFG Division and most songs by Mick Gordon I would argue fit into the idea of "Active" music since they are so visceral they capture the feeling of Rip and Tear, and while they do support the situation of doom like most ambient music, listening to Mastermind in any situation will capture the feeling of drive and make you want to power forwards, hence why it has "ascended" the Ambient Category. For songs that make it on their own merit, its far harder to think of them since its not really what video games are known for, but ones that immediately spring to mind are any of the songs by the "The Make Believes" from We Happy Few, who just genuinely have some bangers but exist entirely in the context of a fictional band within the game, "Sins of the Father" from Metal Gear Solid V and "Snake eater" from Metal Gear Solid 3, and any of the songs from the Guilty Gear Series (also Sega sound team just generally has a habit of crushing it). Any of these songs I feel like are good enough and tell a story without the context of the game (though admittedly snake eater seems more like schizophrenic ramblings without the context of the game). Then theres the Final Catagory which I feel like is the ultimate defining line for Video games over everything else, in order for music to "bring something new to the table" as far as music is concerned, it needs to take advantage of its medium, which if its just playing back a recorded sound its no different to sitting in a concert hall 500 years ago, "Diegetic sound" is the true endgame of video game music as it cannot be captured within a disk in a traditional way, for instance "Space Warlord Organ Trading Simulator" has a series of different soundtracks that lay over each other depending on which menu you are in, and so by engaging with the game you are also effectively remixing your own soundtrack, this is the true new frontier that music can achieve within video games that has only just had its surface scratched, but at the same time is such a subtle detail that 90% of players wouldn't even notice it, so I understand why most devs don't go down this route more. Ultimately, its all music with different functions, going on a night walk to the sound of "City of Tears" from Hollow Knight can capture just as much feeling as listening to "Long way round" by Stereophonics while just sat in my house (Rare song, made specifically for a Motorbike Series by Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman back in 2004), but in no way could I experience it diegetically the way that games have unlocked the ability to do these days. It all depends on what the director is hoping to achieve in those presented moments in the end. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
@@Landoor it is very good, if you ever wanted to feel like an archeologist uncovering the secrets of a lost civilisation i'd say it's worth giving a shot. I'd like to elaborate more but the less you know going into it the better imo. And ofc, not everyone will like it but i think our tastes are similiar enough for me to recommend it.
@@Landoor It didn't make me reflect in my life, but I really enjoyed Outer Wilds. There's also no way to describe the game without dipping into massive spoilers. I will say though, that the more you play it, the more you learn about the game, and once you know it all, there's no undoing that. If you knew what I knew, the game would be about 12 minutes long instead of 30 hours. It's a mystery/puzzle/story/walking simulator/space flight sim. You'll probably never play another game quite like it. I don't even enjoy most of the games in the genres I listed, but it works here.
This video seems very reductive. What about dynamic music, changing depending on your actions in the game. in that case, the story being conveyed is what's happening on the screen. What about leitmotifs, sprinkled throughout an entire soundtrack, telling a story through that alone, without even uttering a single word. If background music is such a bad thing to do, what about Movies with their own scores. Every star wars fan loves tracks like "Imperial March" or "Duel of fates" and there is no story to tell, they're just backdrops to movie scenes. And yet people still love these tracks. The idea that computer generated music isn't using real instruments because computers aren't made solely for music is a logical fallacy not even worth entertaining. Several Music genres rely on it and Porter Robinson fans would probably go to war if you implied his music lacks passion because he isn't playing on "real instruments". On that note, music absolutely doesn't have to tell a story to be good, its enough if it conveys an emotion and usually that's the number 1 job of background music in videogames. There are entire TH-cam channels built around people analyzing videogame music, what emotions its trying to convey, what's story its trying to tell. Videogame music is extremely important to give a game a unique sense of identity in a otherwise saturated market. Videogame music isn't worse or better it's just different, like any other music genre.
I like video game music more than mainstream music because it's catchy. I rarely pay attention to the story (unless it clearly offensive to my soul). Otherwise, feel free to not respect video game music as much.
I love the catchyness too. I think one of the main points I was trying to make is that's not all I can get from music, and I can get a lot more. Still like video game music though, and I stand by the very good opinion that the LoZ Franchise has the most consistent video game music
This is a very challenging video and thats interesting I believe the first natural reaction of anyone whos passionate about the matter is to take this as antagonistic, but actually hearing what you had to say helps to take it in a fair way I wont devolve into arguments and all of that because i already read a lot of good ones here in the comments But in general, i actually came to agree im some ideas and disagree with a lot too, as a aspiring game dev and musician, this video serves as a bittersweet vibe check to my ideals Thanks to putting yourself out there man, you're appreciated
The idea that video game music is separate from "respected" music based on its ability to tell a "story" is confusing. Not only does this ignore the plethora of video games that use leitmotifs, the same technique used all the way back on symphonies with multiple movements to create a musical idea, but it narrows the definition of a what "story" can be, not to mention creating an arbitrary line in the sand as to what constitutes "valid" or "worthy" music. The focus here seems to be entirely on lyrical content for this, when many extremely well respected genres will forgo lyrics entirely, and generally the validity of classical, jazz, a lot of blues, a lot of metal, post rock, and so many other genres is really in question when it comes to worthiness. All of this, by the way, ignoring the lack of a unified genre of music in games to begin with, including many soundtracks using actual lyrical content for many of their tracks because its less a genre and more a medium. Video game soundtracks receive just as much love, effort, and talent as any other medium of music.
I think any music that shows the artist’s talent and creativity in an effective way is deserving of respect, regardless of it comes from a video game or was made using digital instruments. Just because a piece of music can tell a story through lyrics or was made by traditional instruments, that doesn’t make it intrinsically more deserving of respect, in my opinion.
I respect real instruments more because it has way more benefits than computer generated music, because of the collaboration and passion that instruments bring, and the talent as well. Being able to tell a story is a quality that other music has that video game music doesn’t have. I believe if I’m respecting the definition of “respect” I find more reason to respect other music more than video game music. And besides, I wouldn’t care in the first place if the comparison wasn’t brought up
Ngl, I haven’t watched your channel in a while and in the beginning I thought: huh this guy’s voice sounds different but then you started talking and I remembered again lmao
i'm curious whether this applies to similar types of music used in other mediums - symphonies, film scores, operas - where no one song is intended to tell a whole story, but instead work within a larger body to create something more grand in scale. something like the dual sunset in a new hope, for example, is something that evokes a powerful sense of longing, but the music alone doesn't tell its own story in a vacuum. do film scores also not deserve the same respect as "regular" music?
I go by a looser definition of “instrument”, but ultimately my perspective comes from my respect for the use and mastery of unconventional or limited tools. Music programs, or digital instruments as you called them, are very different from physical instruments. The relationship between input (the musician’s actions) and output (the music) is a lot more rigidly defined. But, it’s also more finely controllable, resulting in the processes of composition and performance being effectively merged. The opportunity for deeper expression arises from there. I’m a big fan of chiptune and other electronic sounds because I like how they sound, but also because successful expression through bleep-bloops is a challenge I admire. It’s like pixel art: difficult, limiting, dismissed out of hand by many artists of more popular mediums, but people make masterpieces with it anyway, which only elevates it all for me. Some of the best pixel art pieces I’ve seen were also created with purposefully limited palettes. I love vocaloid/vocal synth as well, where the quality and manner of tuning is everything. My number one favourite vocal synth is Defoko, the most basic default prepackaged option in the open source program UTAU. While most other vocal synths are made using samples from a human voice, Defoko is based on a fully digital text-to-speech voice. In the hands of a skilled producer, she has beautiful and expressive cadence, and some of my favourite songs were made with her. When it comes to feeling personal connection to music, we’re probably just different in terms of what we relate to and how we enjoy it. Music from games that affected me the most is moving by association with the story of the game it’s from, but (to me at least) the music actually played a pretty big part in conveying those stories. The music from VA-11 HALL-A or Signalis isn’t complete without the experience of the games, but the story and experience of the games would also be incomplete without the music. Aside from association with emotional stories, I also get a lot of inspiration from instrumentals and ambient music just in general. Maybe it’s cause I have ASD, but I prefer being alone with music that I can let my imagination vibe to.
4:19 I dont understand how a physical instrument is superior to a virtualized one, especially in the context of synthesizers that is a very blurry line, as they are a computer with the sole purpose of being an instrument.
Please listen to Guilty Gear Strive, which is basically a metal/rock album, and evaluate everything you said. Or the Devil May Cry soundtracks. Or Tekken. Or Armored Core.
do you think music not made for video games that does not use instruments is less valuable then music that does use instruments? For example, any music in the "electronic" genre, or music that heavily utilizes sampling, not using any instruments of its own? If someone were to hypothetically use a Digital Audio Interface like Ableton to recreate a Bob Marley song (recording their own vocals, then using instrumentation tools provided in the interface to create the same instrumentals), is that inherently less "music"?
additionally, think about a song like Don't Forget at the end of Deltarune Chapter 1. That song has lyrics and tells a story that can be entirely separated from the game it is within. This song is simple, but it shows that a song within a video game can tell a narrative deeper than just background music. Or, would you not consider this video game music, as it only plays during the credits?
Well yes, I do value music that doesn’t use instruments less. I believe instruments is one of the best parts about music because of the passion and collaboration that’s put in. Take that away, I lose interest
It’s a quality that other music possesses that video game music doesn’t possess, which is a reason I use to make a point that other music is better or more significant than video game music. This is also an argument coming from the definition of respect as well, which was the basis of my argument; if I should respect video game music as much as other music.
@@711_Camper Songs are sung, but a song is still music. Music is just vocal or instrumental sounds, and when it’s vocal it’s called a song. Music being able to tell a story is something I brought up because Wyvrn made the argument that Video Game Music can tell a story, when it in fact can not. It’s a quality that all Video Game Music lacks, but not all other Music lacks.
@@711_Camper Video Game Music is usually a score, and is used in Video games as a background to what’s happening in the game. Same with movies. Video game music relies on the game, while other music relies on itself. Video game music is designed to be heard with other elements of art, while other music is designed to be heard alone.
i've not got the time or the energy to truly tear into this, especially considering almost everyone who did has said everything i could ever want or need to say I'll say however that the take that a computer cannot be considered a real instrument is probably the most uneducated thing i've ever heard anyone say about music in a WHILE. Why does music need a divide between "REAL" and "video game"? It's all music, plenty of tracks on either end with meaning and plenty that exist as backdrops or to sell a product, etc. If you think in-your-face meaning is the sole definer of what "real" music is, i feel bad for you. When i first saw this my instinct was to wonder "is this ragebait?" because whew. Hell of a take... just not a very good one.
Other music is not more significant. This is going to vary from person to person. That song you played in the video has no value to me. Music only has the value we give it lol. For people that HAVE played the game that a given song is from, its possible that song will have far more value to them due to the context of the song within the game, than any normal song could have. You can use that context to add more meaning into a song than 2 minutes and 30 seconds ever could. You are writing the rules of meaning in such arbitrary ways. Why should we only appreciate a song if it is good by itself with no context? What about the song guantanamera | Playing For Change | Song Around The World? That song has so much more meaning if you know the context and history of Cuba? No offense man. But everything about your video was wrong due to setting completely arbitrary rules to get your point across. When I listen to confronting myself from celeste, that song has so much meaning to me. The story of that game has so much meaning to me on a deep level, and it all comes back to me when I hear that song. I have nothing against you man, you just shared your opinion, but you are just wrong
Liking something and something being objectively good is two different things. I like certain games that I think are worse than other games more. I'm saying that according to the definition of respect, there's all the reason for me to respect Songs more than Video game music because of everything I've said. I don't take offense, I just don't think you understand my points. Songs can be more personal about real life issues, I respect it more than Video Game Music for that reason. Keep in mind this video is really just my personal opinion, I am just articulating that.
@Landoor I gave an example of how a video game music with no words can be much more personal than a normal song due to an entire game of context. You dont have to respect anything, but to say all video game music is worse than normal songs due to being more personal is flat out wrong. Also i brought up taste, because you keep saying the word objective on things it just doesnt apply to at all. Saying video game music is objectively worse than normal music IS objectively wrong, as that literally comes down to personal preference. Video game music has made me FAR more emotional than any normal song ever has. You are describing things from your perspective, on what is impactful to you, that is different for every person. Literally your whole video would be fine if you said, in my opinion, instead of, this is objectively true. It just isnt. I understand your points, its just ur opinion though
@@mystraunt2705 I never said video game music is objectively worse than normal music" I'm defending why I can't respect it as much, that's it. I'm not asking anyone else to have the same opinion as me. It is just my opinion, that's the point, I'm just articulating that. I will say, Songs have way more potential for deep personal relatable meaning than video game music. It does vary, but in general that is true. I don't think anyone is going to change my mind on that tbh
@Landoor This may be a personal question, but have you lost somebody important to you? If so that would make the song you showed in the video a lot more impactful towards you. That context changes how valuable that song is to a given person. Are we allowed to take that into account when we talk about how “personal and deep” a song is to a given person? Cuz I cant see a single reason why not? Thats what im arguing. Video game music has the advantage of having an entire game worth of context, story, and relatability to a song. That is the strength of video game music, just as normal music has its strengths. Im not even trying to change your mind, just expressing my disagreement. Thank you for being respectful unlike so many others, have a good day
I just wanted to say, even though I fundamentally disagree with you, I appreciate the approach you took to this video. I wish more people could present their arguments as clearly and respectfully as you, and I hope you continue to make videos like this. As for the actual content of the video, here's my take: As for your argument about "What makes a good song," you list three points: emotional reaction, the quality of the instrumentation, and storytelling. You also mention that "videogame music is meant to be background music," therefore it cannot (or at least, usually does not) have these elements. The first point you explain is storytelling. While many songs, and even entire genres of music, place a heavy emphasis on lyricism and the stories they can tell, this is still only a fraction of all music, even using a conservative definition of "music." Jazz springs to mind, as some of the landmark jazz standards are purely instrumental. I don't think you would say that John Coltrane or Miles Davis are somehow "less respectable" than Mumford and Sons, but that is essentially what your argument entails. By placing such a heavy emphasis on lyrical storytelling, you have disqualified any instrumental piece from the category of "respectable music." I've seen a lot of other people with this perspective, and I think it's fundamentally wrong to judge music by literary standards instead of musical ones. Moving on to your second point about instrumentation, both you and Wyvrn commit a major error in your arguments: you both cite dictionary definitions as support for your respective arguments. The definitions of words change all the time, ask any linguist. Dictionaries are meant to help explain words to people who don't know their meaning; they are not meant to be authoritative or prescriptive sources. Thus, your argument that computers are inferior to "real" instruments falls apart. Furthermore, the line between computer and instrument blurs more every day, with songs that use a combination of physical instruments and computer-generated sounds. One last point: Mumford and Sons's "Babel" was produced by Markus Dravs, who has also worked with Björk, an artist known for her experimental, electronic sound. This album was mixed/mastered/etc. in a digital audio workstation (DAW), on a computer. Finally, you discuss meaning. This is difficult to discuss, although I think it symbolizes the main issue with your argument in this video: you're trying to form objective arguments from subjective criteria. You don't like video game music as much as other types of music: that is a perfectly valid position, and one that I can't argue with. But to try to support this subjective position with objective arguments is fundamentally flawed, and it leads to the argument ultimately failing to hold water. (This paragraph I've written is essentially a long-winded way of saying "That's just, like, your opinion, man.") Your conclusion once again cites the dictionary (see above for issues), but I want to touch on something specific you said. You mention that videogame soundtracks have not achieved as much as other types of music. What achievements are you specifically referring to? If you're referring to whether it's inspired or influenced other types of music, that's a really nebulous quality that's almost impossible to quantify. If you're referring to accolades (e.g. Grammys), I would argue that those awards really only serve to validate the commercial success of an artist and shouldn't be considered as an indication of whether or not a piece of music has artistic merit. To wrap up, I have a great deal of respect for you and the way you presented your argument, and I hope you continue to refine your argumentation and reasoning, as you clearly have a talent for video editing and narration. It's also my hope that you continue broadening your musical horizons, as there is a great deal of wonderful, powerful, awe-inspiring music out there, whether it's made for video games or not. The Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance soundtrack might be a good place to start.
I like this vid as a direct and respectful rebuddle to another video, but I think you need to listen to more OSTs (which is what video game music is). As well as learn to listen to music in it's context, which is where video game OSTs excel. At it's best it can recontextualise a moment completely, tell a character's backstory without you knowing, and even challenge you both as a player and as the game character. Best examples of this is "Has to be this way" (Metal Gear Rising) which describes a very distinct moment as well as a whole character arc, and "Philistine" (No more Heroes 2) which is both a song that completely informs you of a characters personality and challenges the players and the main characters motives. Both are great songs on their own too, but in their context becomes masterpieces. To me it's like saying album composition doesn't matter, or that the artist doesn't matter to a songs value.
I arguably respect video game music and any electronic music without vocals more than "normal music" because of the way it can convey a story or feeling through its core sound rather than it just being told me through vocals, but each for their own
i feel like it just boils down to video game soundtracks being designed as one part of the wider experience of playing a video game, thus listening to a soundtrack without playing the game is an inherently incomplete and limited experience. i find that i only ever listen to soundtracks from games i've played, and the emotions i feel are mostly due to the feelings i had playing the game itself. this has been pretty eye-opening
Same goes for the song Guantanamera | Playing For Change | Song Around The World. That is the song of the Cuban people, and its more impactful if we know their history. Why are we setting such arbitrary rules for the meaning of a song? Why cant the the context of a song be considered?
Cool Video, I haven't really thought about Video Game Music like that. While I do agree with a lot of the other points you make, I disagree that Video Game Music cannot tell stories. Cause while most Video Game Music I've listened to does not tell any particular story (Emphasis on MOST), I have listened to Video Game Music capable of telling stories. And because of that, I believe that Video Game Music CAN tell stories.
I agree, I just don’t think it can tell a story without the game. It can maybe peak emotions, but because of the lack a lyrics, there’s no way the Super Mario Bros theme would be able to tell me how A Red Plumber saved a princess from a Princess unless I already knew the story beforehand.
As someone that agrees with most of your points, I completely disagree with what you said about music that doesn't have "real instruments". Most of the artists I listen to produce types of electronic music, sometimes having the inclusion of real instruments, but more likely then not they don't. Porter Robinson for example in Worlds made rich soundscapes that were meant to take you on a journey of escapism and in nurture he made more intimate songs about his struggles with finding meaning again. These are mostly done in FL Studio and by your definition it is a tool that is made specifically to make music and most artists I listen to would do the same. This makes your argument in that regard fall apart because sometimes it is the passion in the composition that can elevate a song not just the instrumentation. Other than that I agree with you because game music is just a building block for something greater but other music is the final product and made for the sake of the music and its meaning alone.
The one thing that video music has over real music in my opinion is it reminds us of the games associated with them. Sure, on it's own most video game soundtracks can't tell stories all on their own, but they remind us of both the deep stories some of the games have and more importantly, the deep experiences we as players have had with these games. Whether it be the pure entrancement within the games or even time spent playing the games with loved ones. That's something that the majority of songs from the music genre can't achieve. For example, every time I hear the iconic notes of the Zelda series, I'm reminded of the time spent being hyped over totk, my first time playing botw, or playing link to the past as a kid. Anyways that's my take haha! Great video :)
3:27 This is the main point in this video that I agree with, and ironically the one where I feel you missed the appeal and value of video game music. Because you're right, by itself video game music can't tell a story. What it does instead is sell a feeling, and for me personally that's one of the best things about it: instead of the music being about some story that I may or may not care for or relate to, it's selling a feeling that goes beyond the game itself. Going back to classical music, that's the main reason it shares so many similarities with video game music. Instead of telling a story, classical music sells a feeling with it's instrumentation and composition. And this feeling they convey is timeless, over a century later they still resonate with people, and can be used to enhance modern stories far beyond what the original composer could've imagined. Obviously classical music is just as valuable as regular music, but what makes it "classical"? Why can't someone compose a flight of the bumble bees or hall of the mountain king today and have it be part of that same genre? The answer is that obviously they can, and have. But in the modern day, that style of music just isn't really commercially viable. It doesn't matter how good it is or how much listeners like it, a new classical piece could never find an audience without telling an explicit story. The only way people could find that song and listen to it again is if you give it explicit lyrics for them to put a name to. That is... unless instead of hearing that song on the radio, you heard it in a game, while jumping from planet to planet in Gusty Garden Galaxy. The best video game music is able to do exactly what the best classical music does: sell the listener on a feeling that goes beyond the game it was written for. And video games as a medium are the perfect place for this style of music because a feeling is exactly what they need. You can't have this music on the radio because you're right: in a vacuum it can't tell a story, and even if the listener relates to the song anyway they can't recall it with a melody alone. TV and movies meanwhile are telling their own stories, and the music has to perfectly align itself with the story being told (only in a musical does it get to be the main attraction). But in a game, the player makes their own story, and so the music is able to go all out when it comes to enhancing the feeling of playing that game. I won't try and pretend that all game soundtracks are this valuable, because a lot of them (probably the vast majority tbh) aren't. But for me personally, there's very few "regular" songs that I'm able to relate to. Especially in the realm of modern music, I mostly just think about how there were so many songs I heard as a kid without understanding the lyrics, only to realize later "oh yeah, this is yet another song about sex". But when I listen to music from a game, I'm able to just... _lose myself_ in the vibes. Whether it's victory road from diamond and pearl filling me with a bittersweet nostalgia, or reach for the summit from Celeste giving me the drive to overcome whatever obstacle lies in front of me, those feelings are only made more real for me by not being intrinsically tied to any one story.
This is actually really easy to respond to. The only reason I brought that up is for a reason Wyvrn knows, he said that video game music can tell a story, so I literally just said “no, it can’t” that’s basically it
@@Landoor I see... Though, that doesn't really explain why you feel the critiques of video game music can't also apply to classical music. In my mind the differences kinda just seem superficial: as if classical music is only gets a pass because it was popular back in the day (when in reality it was popular because sheet music could be stored and shared on paper while vocal performances could not). To me, video games music is just how that style is able to exist and be popular in the modern day. Since without lyrics for people to remember, music needs to be attached to some other memorable experience to find an audience.
I have to disagree about the computer being an instrument part, because it's just looping back to an argument that lights up the music side of the industry. DAWs vs Analogue here. A DAW IS an instrument that requires the computer to function. There are also DAWless setups and samplers, mixers, and the like. Chiptune, ambient, and other types of music used in video games are neutered, however these instruments and sounds CAN and HAVE been used outside of video games as their own separate music. I more so agree with your story telling sentiment. You are correct, games can't focus on their music usually. Juxtaposition this with Kajima's Death Stranding where he just uses actual licensed music and a few pieces created for the game. Hell Cyberpunk has an entire OST of ACTUAL songs that are made traditional artists and musicians. However ambient music exists in reality as well. Some indie games simply use real life ambient music, like some soft jazz or something similar. For comparison sake I would argue you have to find traditional music that is of the same genre or feel as the video game music, and then make a comparison. The example of WAP vs Mario Galaxy's orchestra is cherry picked for obvious reasons. It's not comparing something like the orchestra of Dark Souls to the orchestrated pieces that Hans Zimmer has made. Anywho that's my two cents, hopefully it has MADE sense lmao
So this video brings up some pretty neat stuff and the argument as a whole is definitely worth discussing, but ngl there are some pretty wack points. First off, you sorta vaguely name 3 things which make a "good" song: emotion (or I guess meaningfulness as you describe it), the instruments and how they go together, and "storytelling". Obviously you can like whatever you like about music and that's really cool! But it seems odd that you've kind of shrunk the definition of "good" music into this really small part and there are obviously a ton of loopholes in this statement. Like what about fully instrumental music without lyrics? The way you frame it in the video sorta makes it out that instrumental music is unique to video games which is a wee bit slily to me but probably just an oversight. However, when going through the comments, you mentioned that one of your favorite genres is jazz. Almost that entire genre especially from its roots is instrumental. This sort of depends on how willing you are to stretch the definition of jazz (which probably doesn't matter too much for other genres but for jazz specifically is a massive and complicated argument I won't get into here!) but ultimately would you consider all those songs that has no lyrics to be like a poorer form of how you define good, "regular" music? I mean that goes for all genres but jazz specifically of course. Also, your definition of an instrument is true but a really weird way of going about it. A computer is something that can HOST instruments and to diminish the existence of synths or any electronic keyboard is real goofy imo. Like yeah, a computer is not an instrument, but nobody would call a computer itself to be a video game. However, you can RUN video games on a computer in the sense that you can run instruments on one as well. I'm also just generally confused about why this matters at all. Do you just not like the sound of electronic music? Why does it really even matter what is and isn't an instrument? Just curious, but do you also think the whole massive genre of ambient electronic music is not as worthy of respect? Like Aphex Twin or a lot of Daft Punk or whatever I mean there are literally hundreds of examples. There are some incredible works in that genre and it's insanely broad, I don't know if you're super experienced with it or anything but just wondering. You also mention in the pinned comment that it can't be performed live. yes it can 100% can, maybe I'm missing something. I also want to say that the statement about emotion and meaningfulness in music is a bit odd. Like I totally agree that a lot of video game music is favored because of the context of the game, but there's plenty of examples of games that have (again imo) really emotional and strong music entirely separated from their games. And another odd point is the stressing of meaningfulness = good. How do you even gauge that? Like there's actually a very good argument in there where video game music exists parasitically no matter its format or genre or content, but just because it exists because of something else doesn't mean it can't formulate its own meaning. Just off the top of my head but the Silent Hill 2 ost is one of my all time favorites and works as basically an instrumental hip hop album for a lot of it. If you listen to it there's actually no way in hell you can't tell me some of it isn't emotional or meaningful, again, entirely separated from the context of the game. And probably over half of it isn't even electronic, but maybe your main argument comes down to the lack of storytelling? And to that extent this video doesn't have to do with video game music at all but I guess just ambient non lyrical work. Finally, at the end you state that video game music hasn't achieved all that much, which is SUPER DUPER silly. Chiptune is incredibly influential and synthpop and a lot of hip hop music has been highly influenced by video game soundtracks. Overall, while I definitely disagree, it's a very interesting topic you bring up and I'm totally willing to hear out anything else you have to say about this! I like your format a lot, so I'll check out your other stuff for sure. Thanks a ton if you read this (and sorry if it came off as a little scattershot lol)!!
I disagree with like half of these points, but I wanted to use a personal anecdote in regards to the point of storytelling - Saba's "Care for Me" - is an album centered the death of a person and the effect that had on the artist, for clarity sake I'll call him the main character of the album. Omori - is a game centered around the death of a person and the effect that had on the main character. Omori without a doubt 100% is the work that had the greater impact on me as a person, and I think it is the greater depiction of the main theme of these two works, but if I was to listen to the theme of the climax before having played the game, I'd have NO CLUE that Omori was about death and depression, and even after having finished the game, the song by itself is significantly worse at conveying the main themes than Saba's "Care for Me" - which means it's a significantly worse depiction of these themes. Videogame music absolutely is capable of conveying themes, however, as most videogame music is strictly instrumental or at most with orchestral vocals lacking in lyricism, most videogame music does a GREAT job at conveying emotions, but COMPLETELY FAILS at conveying themes without additional context such as a visual aid to match (which also extends to instrumental music released outside of videogames). This is completely fine, because this music is made with that visual aid in mind as such it's not a fault of the medium, but when the conversation is videogame music vs non-videogame music it has to be mentioned.
For me, I feel the same about video game music as regular music, because I don’t look at music as a thought provoking medium, I like it because it feels good to listen to. You’re right, regular music has definitely had more of a personal impact on people, but I still feel the same about both mediums, because I don’t really care about that type of impact when listening to music, I just like good sounding music. I read books or watch shows/movies for that type of story and impact. TLDR: you’re right, but I still respect both types as the same, because I don’t value music based on impact
The thing is: songs and soundtracks are different things. The way I see it: songs are made to be the main attraction. They have meaning and a story through lyrics, since you have time to actually listen and comprehend all of it. On the other hand, soundtracks are made to be a secondary, to set a mood. They empower the feeling you get from seeing the events of the game unfold. They are integral to gaming the same way lyrics are integral to songs. To me soundtracks to games are like lyrics to a song. Without them, it would be worse; boring even. And as such they should both be respected equally, despite being mostly different things.
Hey, I don’t agree with a lot of what you said but I respect the points you made. It’s really dumb that people would get this mad at you when it’s just an opinion you have about music lol Also I love Mumford and sons
I kind of disagree with the instruments part. Electronic music is pretty old. It's older than video games itself. Synthesizers were already being incorporated by bands before Atari was even a thing. Moog synthesizer is one example of such devices.
I FULLY disagree with the video game music can't tell a story statement, the song from Library of Ruina: Gone Angels, is about the cycle of revenge and this can be told without the game to accompany it (which is how I first listened to the song) this is just one example but I could think of more, I won't though because I have already made my point.
I think that the key argument being that it's worth LESS both in like general AND respect is an opinion that is almost impossible to backup and is probably going to be a hard sell overall even among musicians who make "regular music". Art itself is nebulous as to its function so this technically is an argument on the metaphysics of art itself which you're not super equipped to have given your willingness to assume plenty of things. The primary point of your argument is that a nebulously defined "regular music" is worth more than background music due to a lack of storytelling, reactive elements, instrumentation, and meaning. I'll break it down by topic and argument for easy of access. Let's start with the nebulous category of "regular music." I think this is easy to forget, but music spans almost all of human history. To easily succinct modern for-radio songs as "regular music" is just not true. Operas, symphonies, religious hymns, musical theatre, all of these are the origins of music and anybody who studies music is going to recognize those as "regular music" as well. Not all of those forms of music fall into active, with vocals, storytelling experiences and to limit the whole art form to that is objectively a mischaracterization made by non-musicians. Most of what we perform is not "regular music" which I think discredits the idea altogether. Furthermore, I genuinely think this argument is coming from a place of misunderstanding how music works as an artform. Starting with storytelling. Music storytelling is done through music theory, things like dynamics, instrumentation, note patterns, and motifs. I think you fundamentally misunderstand that instrumental and ambient music lack any direction because you don't have the education to receive the work properly. This does include songs like the Mumford & Sons one, too; by not being able to identify how those songs tell a story (beyond the vocals) you're actively missing out on a fuckton of subtext and musical information. Addressing the instrumentation, I have some really bad news for you. While modern music does use instruments, it also uses hyperproduction. None of the music you listen to is just some instruments and a voice, it's ALL run through a computer and edited to death and given some form of synth or digital instrumentation. Britney Spears, AJR, Daft Punk, Earth Wind and Fire, all of them use digital synth's in their "regular songs" as well even playing them on stage in the case of AJR. No serious music producer discounts a digital synth library. The best of these libraries are literally generated by thousands of artist's samples. You are genuinely wrong and probably misled about how modern music is produced if you're willing to overlook the amount of work music production takes and how integral synths and similar digital instruments are to the current industry. Being a non-digital purist is rare even among snooty musicians. And I guess I'll tackle both resonance/reactivity and meaning in one go. This is a subjective one for sure, so you've always been free to feel disconnected to a work of art--video game music or not. I think the issue comes when you say it's devoid of meaning or reactions though. It isn't inherently less meaningful because you aren't willing to interact with the medium. This can be said for a lot of things too. Within "regular music" there are tons of genres (one of which being OSTs ironically for you) and not all of those are equally relatable to any given person. This is true of any and all art. To say a work is devoid in meaning and not react to it is literally to scoff at the composer who had to consider what to make you feel, how to make you feel it, set the mood, and actually create the sounds necessary to get the music to your ears no matter what forms or tools were used. Context is also important for any music. Songs that are used in media like movies, advertisements, games, and TV shows all are often produced with the series in mind. Billie Eilish did a song for Barbie, there were plenty of songs for many of Disney's movies as well. Some songs have context that you'd struggle to fully interpret the song without. Hell most songs have a literal video to go with them. It's okay to express frustration at trying to interpret music without context, but it's kinda like trying to interpret a painting with no knowledge of the artist. You're allowed to be mad that it takes context to understand the art, but it doesn't make the meanings suddenly gone when removed from context. Overall this just seems like a very musically out-of-touch perspective. It fails to really dissect music as an art form, uses generalizing statements not held by industry standards, and actively insults the artists who make the work you're commenting on. I'm not asking you to find them more meaningful or enjoy them, but I beg of you to not encourage people to believe certain music is "less worthy of respect/recognition" because they don't like it or view it as not "regular."
Have you not played the persona games? These games have such deep and inspired music, the obvious example is heaven from persona 4, but any track can be used really
Rdr2 is my favorite game of all time, I like a lot of the soundtrack, in fact its soundtrack is a lot better than a lot of video game soundtracks to me
While I see where you're coming from... most of these arguments are equally applicable the other way around when you stop and think about it. First off, I have to disagree that "video game music cannot tell a story," in fact it very often does the opposite. Sure, while you're not going to perfectly deduce the complete picture of an area in a game just by listening to its music, with a lot of good osts you can at least get a general sense of the mood and maybe a rough picture of the scene from what you know. Take the infamous One-Winged Angel theme from Final Fantasy VII, right off the bat the song is dissonant and tense, denoting an immediate aggressive and terrifying threat. The rhythm is also a bit militaristic, and that becomes especially obvious when the main chorus of it kicks in (oh yeah, this one has lyrics, as there are many video game songs that do, but I'll get back to that later) when the snares kick in. At several points throughout the song, there are also more whimsical instruments and melodies that clash with the overall intense vibe, creating a sense of madness. From all of this it is possible one may be able to deduce that this is the theme of a powerful but mad soldier of sorts, which is a pretty decent summary of Sephiroth's character. Now of course the song title itself often helps set the stage, in this case the title might work against that previous conclusion as a One-Winged Angel would be a fallen angel, and as such perhaps this is only meant to sound epic and terrifying because this is the theme of one of the most dangerous kinds of foes imaginable, but I digress, this may not be the strongest example but I think you get the point. Video game music can tell stories, it just takes more effort to interpret them than a typical song with lyrics. Another thing, I don't understand you point about "real instruments," if we were still in the old chiptune and soundfont eras that would make sense, but that's not remotely where we are now. There is a massive amount of video game music that does in fact use live instruments, and many non-soundtrack songs that rely heavily on computer-based instruments, and many of those samples have gotten so high quality that most people can't tell the difference between them and live instruments. Both mediums can equally express the same amount of soul, in fact one of the games you have in the background here, Blasphemous II, uses live instruments and has tracks that have more sorrowful soul put into their playing than almost any "normal" song I have ever heard, it's part of why I love that ost especially. Meanwhile there are entire genres and sub-genres of normal music that typically use almost entirely to computer instruments like electronica, modern dubstep, electro swing, etc. Another thing, the "real instruments" that modern normal music has can often not even be real instruments, these days samples have gotten so good at emulating real instruments that often composers and artist alike purchase them and use them instead of the real deal, as often only people with very good ears will actually notice the difference (I would know, I myself work with these samples and have found even ones I feel are low quality have fooled others with thinking they are real instruments). Both mediums use it because both are broad categories that encompass all genres of music, just with different goals in mind with their creations. Now on the point of meaning... I actually agree here (for the most part). Normal music's biggest strength is its more common use of lyrics to tell stories and convey messages and feelings through words, and while there are numerous soundtracks that do have lyrics, they are definitely not the norm. Carlos Viola's "Palacio de los Setillos" will never touch my soul in the same way I do with Sting's "Fragile," and that's alright, this is where the goals in creating these pieces divides. Compositions in video games are meant to support the environment and story of the game, while normal songs are meant to convey complete pictures straight to the listener, and as such one of them is almost always going to feel more personal than the other. Now regular music does have a big strength here but also a big weakness, because you expect more of a personal experience with these lyrical pieces, when you hear lyrics that you can't vibe with for one reason or another, at least for me I reject it far more quickly than an ost that sounds unpleasant in some way. Finally, this one kinda irked me the most, when you were discussing the way you define respect you claimed that video game music brings nothing new to the table... When I cannot see anything but the opposite. It's not an uncommon sentiment that modern normal music has greatly stagnated of late, it feels like most truly innovative artist either quickly goes downhill after trying to fit into trends or just remain kind of niche and obscure, which is in big part due to corporate pressure and the need to succeed off the music alone, while meanwhile video game music doesn't have to worry about being successful on its own and as such it can get very experimental and unusual (although corporate pressure can still be an issue, this being especially noticeable in many AAA games that tend to use strictly orchestral scores and don't innovate, but I digress). Genres can get blended together, instruments that have no business going together can be combined, and soundtracks will almost always have a diverse array of songs from all sorts of inspirations in a way a band often can't easily do in one album, and I think that's part of why I often respect osts more than band albums, there is often something there for everyone in one soundtrack and I often get to hear unique sounds I wouldn't have heard otherwise in an album where a more united sound is the norm. I would likely never have known I have a love for mariachi or flamenco if I hadn't heard them through Grim Fandango's "Companeros" or Street Fighter's "Vega Stage." I'm not saying artists can't do this, in fact there are some that do, but they are again niche and not the norm. I feel like this whole thing can be summed up as you have different music preferences from people who like osts, and that's alright. Saying it's "worse" than normal music is like me saying rap is worse than jazz, which is not really an objective fact, just an opinion I have.
I have a couple issues. First, creating a tone or "sense of mood" as you said, isn't the same as telling a story. That tells emotions. and that's an important distinction that needs to be made. I like the example you used. If a video game soundtrack has lyrics, it can surely tell a story. So what's my issue? There's no room for it to be personal like I've showed in my video. Final Fantasy VII's soundtrack will always just be Final Fantasy VII's soundtrack. It's not that it doesn't, but that it in fact can not transcend time and culture, like how Bob Marley represented an entire generation. He will always be remembered, and that's why he's great. As far as I know, there is no Video Game soundtrack that can transcend time a culture on a personal level. Second, I believe real instruments are superior. Why? They have a shown level of passion, can be preformed, are a healthier way of making music, and provides a certain warmth that computer generated music does not provide. These are all advantages that computer generated music lacks. This is why although catchy, I respect Undertale's soundtrack less than Mario Galaxies. Third, I think we agree about meaning then. I wouldn't make the comparison if Wyvrn didn't make it in the first place, because obviously video game music isn't trying to have deep meaning. When you talk about lyrics you cant vibe with, I see what your saying, but I can't let that cancel out when there are lyrics I can vibe with. Same with bad and good video game soundtracks. 4th and finally, mainstream modern music is rough. Not all modern music. Video game music doesn't have to worry about this, yes, but that's because it's not trying to be music you listen to without playing through a game. All the compliments you gave to video game music can just be applied to classical music. Classical music was revolutionary, Video game music is not. Which gives me less room to respect it. I absolutely do have different music preferences, and I believe listening to whatever music you want to is best. But this video is not based off of my bias, rather it's the opposite. For example, I don't listen to Bob Marley at all really. but he's a key example I've been using in my replies to comments. It all comes down to what is truly Great, and I don't find that video game music brings anything for me to say "woah, that's new and revolutionary!" I respect it, just less.
@@Landoor on point one, can't say much there, disregarding lyrical video game music you're only ever at best going to come up with images in your head of what might be going on and not going to get some deep meaning out of it, which is something I personally really love and is part of why I connect more with soundtracks. Second, I agree that live instruments are better than software (sort of), though I feel that's more just influenced by my instrumentation preferences. While you're not going to get the impressive skill and intricacies of a live performance from software, there is a very different kind of talent that comes with working with software to both emulate real instruments and make one's own crazy sounds. I can sort of agree that live instruments are more respectable considering the talent it takes in comparison to working digitally, and I say that as someone who works with music software, but I still also respect the work process that comes with using mostly software. Either way, that's not a very central point to the argument in my eyes, a vast amount of video game osts use live instruments or a mixture of live and software, same as normal music, and both methods of making music have their uses and places. That was what I was trying to point out. On the third point, I think I failed to make clear what exactly I meant, granted its hard to because these are such broad categories with many areas that overlap that generalizing almost always creates issues. What I was trying to say is that "normal" music that is unpleasant, especially in lyrical quality, is something I find turns me off much more than it would with a similar phenomenon instrumental soundtrack. And to be clear I'm not talking about songs with corporate soullessness, that's an issue that plagues both soundtracks and normal music alike, what I'm getting at is an instrumental track isn't ever going to have me noticing messaging I feel is harmful or inappropriate, but rather I can simply vibe with and imagine scenes supporting just about anything thrown even if it's downright unpleasant, so long as there is clear effort and soul put into the piece I can respect and connect with it. In much less muddled words, in the personal meaning department normal music generally has higher positives but the same can be said of the negatives because they're more personal in a sense, hence in part I find instrumental tracks easier to get into and connect with because of this personally. On the last two points, I strongly disagree that video game music is not ever revolutionary, especially not compared to most modern "normal" music, but that comes down to how you define "revolutionary," and I suspect our definitions are very different there, only trouble there is I'm not sure how to properly articulate how I'd define "revolutionary" myself
@brawlman644 I won't say much for point one either, I think our brains are just different. You are right, people can like computer generated music more, but I feel that is subjective where as I aim to be subjective in my critiques of it. I think the fact that for thousands of years, people have replayed songs and preformed them is beautiful. I simply don't want to lose that, and that's a huge quality that computer generated music does not have. I do still respect the process that is gone through to make that computer generated music, I just don't respect the execution of the music as much. I see what you're saying, but I never find it too bad when I find a song I don't like. I just ignore it, and listen or find music I do or will like. I don't think you should hold yourself back from listening to what could be great songs because you don't like some other unrelated songs. For the last point, I should've been more specific. I think to gaming, Video game music can be revolutionary, just look at Mario's theme or Minecraft Music. In general though, I don't think video game music is revolutionary to Music itself because it doesn't do anything new that hasn't already been done before. The definition of revolutionary is this btw: Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change.
@@Landoor On the first note, I feel like I incorrectly described the way I engage with soundtracks and just want to correct that really quick. While I can and do often come up with ideas of the events playing out during the song, there's also some deeper connection that I can't quite put into words, the only way I can really describe it is vibing with it, just enjoying being able to take in the emotions being expressed and enjoy it. With that out of the way, again I agree with that for the most part, I revere good music with live instruments more than software because of that collaboration and talent factor to an extent, though I don't feel that a song is inherently more respectable just because it uses live instruments. A bunch of people who come together and produce meaningless slop are not more respectable than someone who pours their soul into a digital composition, and I think it's also worth considering that often the people doing digital are just working with what they have. It's not just talent that comes with putting on a live performance after all, it is infinitely more expensive to work with live instruments than it is to work with software. Often there's not really much of a choice if you don't have the right connections, but that's getting a bit off topic so I digress. Third, I'm not saying I let the bad bar me from the good inherently, I'm just saying it's easier to let an instrumental track take me on a unique journey than it is to interpret and connect with lyrics, and I feel it's easier to find the good instrumental songs than it is to find the diamond in the rough with lyrical songs, especially with the poor modern state of that medium. Finally, I disagree that video game music just retreads old ground and never does anything new, in fact I feel it is often far more innovative than a lot of "normal" music, I have never heard anyone else do anything quite like the wacky mixture of ethnic and orchestral sounds found in the modern Rayman soundtracks, the combination of mariachi and big band in Grim Fandango, or the fun combination of retro sounds with rock and funk in Pizza Tower. Now those soundtracks obviously all have clear inspirations, but that is equally true of any music considered as revolutionary, all art is derivative after all. And sure, none of this is truly revolutionary, only one of these really got close to starting a trend, but I feel we're not really in an era where it's possible to be truly revolutionary in music because of how vastly it has now expanded, at this point all there can really be is experimentation and improvement. As such, I feel it's unfair to hold it to the standard of needing to be capable of starting a revolution when by its nature all it can really do is have incremental influence. I think all of that also applies to "normal" music anyways, and considering how that is currently in a rough state and is definetly not showing any signs of having a major revolution, I think this argument really falls apart there. I have a feeling you'll bring this up so I'll go ahead and address it first, I've seen you mention elsewhere that normal songs have the power to "change the world," and while in a certain sense that is true of some cases, I think that depends on what you mean. If you mean a revolutionary change, that often depends far less on the songs themselves and moreso on a movement that simply associates with it, and those songs are very few and far between so I don't feel it's fair to argue on those lines. If you mean a more subtle influential level, than yes, that is a strength that this medium typically has that soundtracks do not often possess. I don't think that inherently makes it more respectable however, as this influence can have both positive and negative effects. I feel like the ultimate summary of my view is songs should be judged and respected more on their own merits rather than by the medium through which they were made. There are soundtracks that are better and more respectable than normal music, and there is normal music that is better and more respectable than soundtracks. It can't be dumbed down to soundtracks are generally less respectable than normal music in my eyes, as both categories are far too broad and have a massive overlap and personal preferences will almost certainly interfere at that scale.
I feel like this argument falls apart in the context of genres that usually don't have lyrics like classical music or just instrumentals as a whole and thus can't tell a story at least in a conventional way, or even music in a language you don't understand but that's less so. If Toby Fox's discography is a lower form of music in part due to this then by your standards Beethoven is too. And yeah computers are not instruments but the music composing software definitely is, especially when most people who make digital music often use a keyboard which is of course an instrument, air isnt an instrument but you need it to play a trumpet, computers arent either but you need one to run FLStudio. Theres also musicians who dont make video game music that heavily use electronics to make music like Neil Cicierega/Lemon Demon for example, the violins in touch-tone telephone being a soundfont and not physical instruments being played doesn't detract from the quality of the song. This is kinda just a taste thing rather than something subjective since what you would consider more serious music can share elements of why you think video game music shouldn't be taken seriously.
@@paxvictori2385 I think I agree that I should have expanded on lyrics and songs vs instrumentals, yes. That’s a video for another time. Toby Fox being compared to Beethoven isn’t necessarily fair though. Beethoven made his songs with real physical instruments, and was revolutionary for what he brought to the table. Undertales sound track, while catchy, doesn’t bring anything new to the table. I respect Beethoven and classical music for their significant impacts historically and their achievements. I can’t say the same about video game music. Also I agree that softwares could be considered instruments in a sense if that’s the soul purpose. However I believe physical instruments are superior due to collaboration, passion, physical talent, and being able to show all of this to a live audience. That’s actually why I respect Mario Galaxies soundtrack more than Undertales.
@@Landoor There are two things I disagree with here, for one I don't think collaboration should be the standard for what makes something superior and more respectable in the music field. Many "normal music" artists create songs entirely on their own, which itself is a very impressive talent considering many people only ever learn one or two instruments. Furthermore, perhaps you don't mean it this way but saying that because toby did his songs digitally means he has less talent and passion is a disservice to his work in my eyes, he was a self taught as a musician after all, and it is far from effortless to score an entire game solely on one's own. The other note I have is that Toby's songs have more impact than I think you give them credit for. He started, or at the very least popularized, making music almost solely with old chiptune and soundfont samples and mixed and matched them in unique ways, and now there is a massive community centered around that emulating and experimenting with that style, though I suppose that's arguably very much in part because of the success of his games.
@@brawlman644 Collaboration is one of my favorite parts of music. Multiple people coming together and creating beautiful sounds has been one of the big selling points of music since forever. Toby absolutely does have talent, don't get me wrong. I just think talent that you can show live is better. These are both qualities that video game music lacks which gives me more reason to respect other music. Toby had a huge impact for sure, to the gaming community. But other music that doesn't rely on a game has the power to not only impact a big community, but the world. I find this more respectable.
@@Landoor One thing I would like to correct, video game music can and in fact very often is given live performances, even Toby has had multiple concerts dedicated to his work, though if you're referring to the original arrangements specifically then that just comes down once again to the difference between Super Mario Galaxy and Undertale.
@@brawlman644 No I know that, I meant you can’t have live performances for music that’s computer generated. I respect OST’s like Mario Galaxies more than Undertale’s for this very reason
i'm like 3 quarters into the video, and it's kind of defeated when you consider video game soundtracks that have lyrics in their songs... and that's if we ignore how already this opinion is kind of a weird perspective to take on art
@@speccyisme5184 some do, but I’d say they don’t have as much of a personal meaning in themselves as other songs. Remember this is my personal opinion and preference, I’m just articulating that
@@Landoor You could grab most of the songs made for cyberpunk like the ones by samurai and they undoubtedly stand on their own and have their own meanings outside of the context of the game. And again, this is IF we're going by your pretty strict standards of having to have it's meaning defined by the lyrics of the song. Art as an expression shouldn't have to be respected less or more just because words were decided to be added, and by this standard even a lot of 'regular' music is now less valuable just because of it.
@@SuperViolaBros it depends. I think my story argument is most defeated when it comes to instrumentals. I think lyrical music is more respectable, but that’s just me. Sometimes I want instrumentals for studying, or focusing. I respect instrumentals more than Video game scores just because I think there has been way more innovation in instrumentals and I like the use of instruments more, but that’s mostly subjective. Anyway the reason I compared Songs to Video Game Music is simply because Wyvrn did so in his video, and I disagreed with that comparison, so I made those arguments. I respect The Beatles “Hey Jude” more than any Video Game Soundtrack I’ve ever heard. Hope that makes sense
@@Landoor in terms of innovation, couldn’t you say video game music was at the forefront of certain electronic musics at certain times? so much so that they have influenced ‘real’ music genres? but yeah i totally understand, i just think there’s a lot more nuance to the topic
@@SuperViolaBros You’re probably right, I just like real instruments a lot more than computer generated music or digital instruments, and so electronic music has always seemed less respectable to me
I can tell this guy is super young and firmly in his "I know more than most people about this, despite knowing nothing about this" phase, which is fine we all had one. Video game music is music, and it isn't better or worse than any other music. I will agree though that most people who listen to videogame music are very incurious and unadventurous and almost never listen to other music outside game OSTs. We've all known someone who listens to exclusively videogame music and how cringe that was. So I can understand how videogame OST's might give someone "the ick" as they say. Also, Mumford and sons are a really shitty band. If you are trying to flex how much of a musical genius you are, calling Mumford and Sons your favourite band is a terrible way of doing it. In my day they were treated like Nickelback, you'd never admit to liking Mumford and Sons out of fear of getting laughed at. Another reason why I reckon you're probably a teenager. Your problem seems to be with music without lyrics, as you seem to relate to music mostly through it's lyrical themes. Which is funny to me because in musician circles this is considered one of the biggest signifiers that someone isn't musically inclined. A song's lyrics is just poetry, there's nothing wrong with poetry, but it's not music. Being unable to listen to music without lyrics means you don't really like music, you like poetry with a backing track. Which once again, is fine, but it makes you uniquely unequipped to speak on what music is good, and what is bad. Music has the power to be extremely moving in it's composition. Relating to lyrics is legitimately the most shallow way of interacting with music. If you can't appreciate entirely instrumental music on it's own, not connected to or associated with any video game or movie or TV show, then you don't truly enjoy music.
@@sharkymcshark3392 I’m 15, you’ve figured me out. I don’t know better than most people. So many people in the comments are smarter than me. Hell, Wyvrn being almost 18 is most definitely smarter than me. I made this video to articulate my opinions on this. Also, I’m no musical genius and never claimed to be. Calling Mumford and Sons a shitty band doesn’t help your case or any argument you’re trying to make, they’ve won a lot of rewards and Babel and Sigh No More are great albums. I don’t think anyone should get laughed at for what music they like. If you like video game music a lot, I wouldn’t laugh or challenge you. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinions here. I’m articulating mine.
@@Landoor If you're only 15 I respect you because your video editing and your way of speaking is great for someone your age, I thought you'd be 18 or 19. Keep it up, you're really good at it. But you need to listen to more music and broaden your horizons beyond what you hear on the radio. I guarantee when you get older you'll look back at this video and won't believe you had these opinions. If I made videos at 15 I'd probably have way worse opinions though to be fair. My dig at Mumford and Sons, is that they're widely considered pretty corporate and shallow radio friendly folk rock by most people. So it's hard to make a point that they have more artistic value than some of the all time great video game composers like Akira Yamaoka. The ironic thing is that people obsessed with video game music actually really annoy me. I knew a guy once who would exclusively listen to music he heard in games he played. He loves the jazz in Persona, I would recommend some good jazz bands to him and he wouldn't listen to it. He liked the synth music in Hotline Miami, so I recommended him some synth artists and he wouldn't listen to them and so on. I think the problem is that many people like to use music as a means to re-live playing their favourite game rather than enjoying it for music's sake. Which is a pretty lame way to listen in my opinion. To summarise, there's nothing wrong with listening to video game music, but listening to video game music and nothing else displays a distinct lack of curiosity and ability to engage with art on your own terms. Good luck anyway with the channel.
@@sharkymcshark3392 First off, I appreciate that, thanks. Secondly, I've been trying to do that and will continue to of course. Maybe in years time I'll look back at this video and laugh at myself. Third, and this may surprise you, I agree. When considering what they are now. Their new music isn't good imo, but their old stuff is fantastic to me and hits really hard. For example, one of their songs, "Reminder" is super relatable to me and my Dad and Moms story. I won't get too personal but the song is relatable enough to where I don't see video game OST reaching that same level unless it's from a phycological perspective. Honestly I think I need to play the Persona games, I've heard they are great, and to hear that they have good music as well makes me more excited. I'll have to check it all out. I agree, I like listening to the music for the composition and relatability. I agree again, I listen to both Video Game OST sometimes and Songs and other Instrumentals. Lastly, thank you.
I actually thought this video was pretty good 😮 To me video game music is like movie music, I acknowledge that it's good when I first hear it, and maybe even listen to it a couple times but nowhere near as much as I listen to "normal" music.
I went into this video hoping to hear something new, perhaps a deeper, structural or otherwise analysis of the subject matter. I was disappointed by an incoherent video trying to, seemingly, be the opposite of that (or any reason for that matter), and that really disappoints me. 1. You've refused to support your first point with any argument. "A soundtrack is incapable of telling a compelling story" is not only incredibly subjective and applicable to other forms of media as well, making it non-exclusive (which is not a bad thing usually, but you're trying to discredit specifically video game soundtracks here, not soundtracks as a whole) to your argument about video games, but outright wrong; melodies and abstract sounds *can* tell stories and convey emotion. There is no denying that. Is Vivaldi's Four Seasons rendered devoid of meaning and storytelling merit by its lack of a vocal? Similarly, is it "just worse" than "real music" due to the fact that it can and has been used in the background of something? 2. I can't fathom how unbearably stupid the point of "computers aren't instruments, therefore videogame music is less valid as a form od music" is. What are you even trying to do? Discredit the last ~60 years of the history of electronic music on the basis that it doesn't use "real instruments"? This point is funny and I don't find myself (or anyone, for that matter) compelled to argue it. 3. Your third point, about video games being unable to express relatable, grounded emotions, is trying to undermine them as an art form in order to further your own argument. I don't get this. I don't understand what you're trying to do with it, and I find that this kind of mindset is exactly what sets back video games from *being* an art and *expressing* those things. Your points are riddled with elitism and a fundamental misunderstanding of what the basis of music and art as a wider concept is - they only aim to confess a lack of the vulnerability and maturity needed to critically engage with art. I find your attempt at forming an argument horribly uncompelling. I feel this to the extent that I'm unsure what to even make of this video. It's nonsensical, and the notion that a human being was to write, proofread and most importantly vocalise the script to this video truly makes me ponder.
Hi, let me clarify what I meant more here. 1. I was comparing Video Game Music to songs, like Wyvrn did in the first part of the video, and I was just saying songs can tell a complete story where video game music can't, it can only tell emotions which doesn't fit in the definition of story. Also the video is subjective, and my opinion, I'm just articulating my beliefs. 2. Your argument here is based of ethos, calling my argument stupid doesn't mean anything. I respect music that uses real instruments more than music that doesn't, because only real instruments can be replayed and shared, which has been a huge part of music for thousands of years. If music is using a synth, I respect that, if it's just computer generated, I don't. 3. Video Game music can never really touch people as often on a deep personal level relating to real life problems, which gives me more reason to respect certain songs more. I'm not interested in how you feel about my video at all, I'm just interested in if I should respect Video Game music as much, and unfortunately you never prove that.
@@Landoor you've failed to truly dispute anything that I've said, I don't find your response to be valuable. Have a good afternoon and thank you for the input.
@@Landoor there is no hard truth here. Your assertions, such as that digital instruments are inferior to the traditional, are subjective, and they will never be anything else than that. Because you can't tangibly prove that, and you can't (or didn't, at least) tangibly and objectively prove that video game composition is inferior, either.
@@Akogiri Well I actually never claimed to be objective. This video is more of just my personal preference, Wyvrn thinks I should respect video game music as much, I refuse. I’m articulating why in this video.
This video basically boils down to your ignorance on the subject, not an insult of intelligence you seem to be rather smart. Though you fall into a lot of pitfalls of letting your lack of understanding be proof of the objectivity of your reasoning. I also just think it is sad that you feel lyrics are necessary to tell a story with music, you are missing out on many journeys. As well as simply disparaging the history of music all at once by proposing Classical music does not tell stories due to lack of lyrics. Just like you say about Contemporary music with lyrics (songs) being on a scale of worthiness of respect, the same is true about Instrumental music. Which lets be real here this is not about Video Game music but Instrumental music as a whole.
@@SoloAdvocate we’d have to define story first. I think it’s explaining events for fiction or what has actually happened. I think video game music can absolutely tell a story if you think a story is different emotions that change, I just don’t think that’s a story. This video is my personal preference, I’m just articulating that and why. It’s not a belief I’m trying to force on others
@@SoloAdvocate also I’m talking about video game music vs songs, not instrumental music vs songs. Remember the reason I’m talking about that is because of the comparison Wyvrn made at the beginning
I'll have to disagree with your point of it not being able to be replayed. Even in cases where the song is 8bit or robotic, many people have played songs like that with real instruments. Using your example of undertale, almost everyone of those songs can and have been played on real instruments and use the same scale as instruments. They use the same pitches of real instruments, they use the same notes as real instruments so saying they can't be replayed is just flat wrong, on top of that there are REAL INSTRUMENTS that use that 8bit or robotic sound, Keyboards, synths, keytairs, and theremins are from the top of my head and all of which take time to practice and learn just like any other instruments and can be played in front of people and used to recreate many in-game songs. Not to mention that many in game songs have can in fact have all the elements of emotions and story telling my favorite example of music telling a story is that if ultrakill. If you listen to the OST or just some of the boss music in general you can feel the rage, energy, or in a certain case sadness of said boss and can understand even without someone telling you that this is a great battle. For example the song order. If you listen to the music from the lust layer in ultrakill followed up by order you will here the Motifs from said earlier songs, in fact the entirety of lost copies elements from songs previously heard in the same layer, taking you on this journey throughout said layer until you fight the "big bad" and though it's not a super complex story, it's one of violence and chaos, but it's a story nonetheless.
Yea but, that just gives me more reason to respect real instruments more then. Also, even if you could make that argument, popular music is currently being played in every city around the world and is open to anyone going to witness it whereas some obscure video game song is virtually limited to playing the game or downloading the song, you don't have the opportunity of playing video game music live very often.
@Landoor The songs being obscure doesn't mean it deserves any less respect. That's like saying a band who plays some of the best music you've ever heard doesn't deserve as much respect because it's harder to find their music. Nothing is stopping people from listening to game music other than the idea that you can only enjoy while playing the game, which just isn't true. People still put blood, sweat, and tears into the music nonetheless. For example, Warframe. They have an entire orchestra with vocalists and have made many beautiful works of music that took work from many people, and almost all of the songs can be enjoyed without playing the game. Do they deserve less respect simply because the music they make is put into a game? No, it's easy to say that video game music is more obscure than popular, so it is therefore not as respectable, but in reality, it's just music. It's on all the same platforms as any other artist. Just people haven't heard the music. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be as respected. It just means people haven't discovered it yet. Just like any other indie band who may or may not make amazing music.
I think I’m going to make a separate video discussing the difference between a song, and music. I want to clarify more of what I meant here, and then maybe it’ll make a little more sense. Hate me if you want though, idc.
Also just wanna say, I’ve gotten a lot of good criticism that I appreciate! It really does help me, I want to make some more video essays in this style where it’s not as controversial lol.
Looking forward to your next video, you have some good points.
Like Wyvrns asked why don't people dance to orchestral music in the club but they do to wap, it's because wap was created to be a danceable and catchy club hit, while orchestral music is not.
As for video game music not doing anything new I disagree I could be wrong but I feel like the Doom remake 100% had an effect on the metal genre at least amongst indie producers. And retro game music 100% had a major effect on the soundcloud hiphop scene especially in the mid 2010s.
I think your assertion that a piece of software being used makes it somehow inferior to "real instruments" is a kinda insane statement when there ARE legit genres that don't have a single traditional instrument in them with plenty of resonance in people.
A ton of rap is like that, electronica is like that, friggin weird shit like breakcore does that, all just as valid and passionate as anything that would be composed with physical instruments.
I think that's a pretty narrow way to view things personally 🤷
EDIT: Yeesh that was a lot of spelling and grammar errors
this video is so under researchedand poorly worded all music produced today use software, only enthusiast who want to make things like the old days don't
most of the top charting music from all genres use software instruments as well, even movies and tv shows
why waste money on an orchestra when you can have one guy on a piano compose a whole realistic sounding piece with a sample library
I see what you’re saying, I should’ve clarified what I meant in my video more. I’m making a new one that hopefully shows what I mean a little more as well, but I appreciate the criticism (:
Spelling 😭
@@fuzzybloodpc9291 Aye cut me some slack, glasses are broken and I'm working with autocorrect lol
@@krello_png oh okay, no problem then
Ok so i wrote a 2100 word text debunking everything you said so it's gonna be divided in multiple parts
Intro (1/1)
I disagree a lot with your view but i believe it’s just because you don’t have any music education and don’t really know what you’re talking about, so i’m gonna go over every point and explain why you’re wrong, but please try going into this wanting to change opinion, try to see things differently.
Also since this is the internet and it’s by text and you cant get the emotion of speech through it I must precise i’m doing this by compassion, so dont read this text as something hateful or with a superior tone, it’s only good intentions. I'm truly passionate about the subject and just want to share my passion. Hope you will try to give Video Game Music a chance and see it as a medium that deserves respect
First Argument (1/1)
We’ll start with the first point, video game music can’t tell a story. You’re going over this point really quickly in the video but it seems the general idea is discussed more in depth in your third part about meaning, so there are some things i'm gonna answer here and others later in the comment, might also repeat myself at some point later on.
So your main point about this is that because it’s used for a certain context someone who never played the game couldn’t at least get an idea of what the music is trying to say. By saying that modern music can tell a story I guess you’re talking about lyrics, but there is a difference between music and lyrics, while music is the instruments, the voice etc… The lyrics are closer to poetry and I will go back on why lyrics don't matter later in the third part of this comment. But without storytelling music can still share emotions and ideas of what is happening. I'm gonna take for example the song Sealed Vessel by Christopher Larkin for the Hollow Knight soundtrack. The song starts by building anticipation, it’s quiet but then strings come in and start building tension letting now a more normal boss fight theme take place, it’s a dynamic orchestral piece that keeps this idea of tense situation through its composition whether it’s through functional harmony, counterpoints, the technique used on certain instruments. The song then proceeds to change completely now it’s just a string ensemble playing a tense melody, we get a progression of tension the violins go higher and higher, choirs start joining, something tragic is happening, we get to the climax where now the full orchestra comes back putting an end to this moment of horror that you can clearly feel through the music. Then comes the calm after the storm, a piano playing a hopeful melody but still with a touch of sadness, nostalgia maybe, concluding this story. While there were no lyrics, you can still grasp the idea behind this song, it starts preparing us for something big, this big thing happens, it’s a tense moment, then suddenly it becomes tragic, and then it concludes on a peaceful sad note. And you don’t need to know anything about music to feel and understand that, i know because i showed it to over 20 people and they all could get the concept without any explanation, but that’s just a general idea of it without going deeper and into all the music theory details in the composition that show even more how well thought, this piece is. I would recommend you check out Davi Vasc’s channel, he is a game composer who reacts to video game music he’s never heard before, he manages to guess everything about the story just by listening to the soundtrack without ever playing the game. You should watch his video on Sealed Vessel, he talks about the points i just explained here but also goes deeper, also when he talks about music theory he makes it super simple so that everyone can understand what he’s talking about. (Keep in mind also that he doesn't see the game footage on screen in his videos, he goes into it completely blind).
Argument between the 1st and second (1/1)
Now before addressing your second point i'm gonna go back to a topic i feel you didn't do justice to, when defining what make a good song you said an emotional reaction of some sort is needed, well you can get different emotions in video game music. Listen to Mice on Venus by C418 for the Minecraft soundtrack, and tell me you didn't feel any profound emotion. Listen to The Only Thing They Fear is You by Mick Gordon for the Doom soundtrack and try not to headbang. Without context you can still feel something from video game music, because at the end of the day it’s music at the same level as any other genre.
Argument 2 (1/1)
Ok time for the second point, How they use the instruments, now that’s where it seems you start getting confused and don't really know what you’re talking about. First the point of the computer not being a tool for making music is out of the debate because you seemed to realize in your pinned comment your mistake. But you dug yourself into an even bigger hole with this pinned comment so imma go over every point.
For the first argument that since it’s made using programs it doesnt deserve as much respect as modern music, you just invalidated a huge part of today’s music, not even gonna talk about Electro music because there you would have a heart attack lol. Even big artists don't bother using real instruments anymore, if anything video game music and film music are single handedly keeping orchestras alive because most of them use real instruments now, we’ll go back to this later btw. But i wanted to talk about the point that “it CANNOT be replayed or performed live”, excuse me, what???? I seriously don’t get what you’re trying to say, Brawlman64 wrote a comment against that saying that even music that doesn't use real instruments is performed live, and you seemed to not understand. So imma go over it again, while some OSTs like Undertale or old Final Fantasy games used chiptunes and soundfonts, they were still played live a lot, Undertale had a 5th anniversary Orchestra live, and Final Fantasy has Distant world, which you should look into, would recommend One Winged Angel from FF7 the distant world version.
For the second point that it feels roboty, idk what you’re talking about here, if you’re talking about the chiptune like for old games then that’s just historical context and I'm gonna go back over this topic in a bit. But if you’re talking about actual VSTs not sounding like real instruments you’re nitpicky because there’s no way a person with so little music knowledge would be able to tell the difference.
Now back to the chiptune sound. This sound was either due to the limits of technology at the time or nowadays is a stylistic choice that should be respected, because in the end music isn’t about the instruments but the talent and this musical talent isn’t just reserved to playing an instrument but also music writing and composition, and in term of writing someone like Nobuo Uematsu is leagues above let’s say Bob Marley, it’s not even comparable, i mean just listen to Dancing Mad from FF6 it’s a piece of music at the same level as classical composers like Bach Beethoven Mozart etc… there’s just so much more than instrument playing in music.
Now for the third point that it lacks collaboration i don't even know what to say, enough people talked about it in the comments so i don't feel like it’s something worth going deep into if not to say that classical music lacks collaboration too, and many solo artists write their stuff alone, even in bands it can be just one person writing everything, look at the band Boston.
Something I also saw you talking about in the comments is that you can't compare VGM composers with classical composers because classical composers made their songs with real instruments. Well no, classical composers made their songs with paper and just a piano most of the time so by your logic we should respect video games composers more than classical, because at least VGM composers use more instruments during the writing, yet this reasoning is simply wrong and just proves your whole argument doesn’t work. And if you meant that classical work is played by real instruments well so can video game music with the live example I gave earlier.
I talked enough about fake instruments so now let's talk about real ones. I won't go over the composition again because i already talked about it so i'm just gonna recommend you some VGM with real instruments and awesome composition.
Ascension from FF16 and also Away (Ifrit Vs Phoenix) from the same game both composed by Masayoshi Soken, these are epic orchestral works.
Now for something different, Ludwig the Holy Blade by Yuka Kitamura for Bloodborne, this song with an epic boss theme also presents a story but i'm not gonna go in details over it because i still have to cover your third and last argument and i'm getting tired of writing. But you should maybe check out Marco Meatball’s series where he shows VGM to people who have never heard anything from the genre before but are classical musicians, like Opera Singer, Classical Composers, Opera Conductors, etc… Every Time he shows Ludwig’s theme even the people who don’t respect the genre recognize how good and well made this song is. But the entire series as a whole is really interesting to watch to see the different opinions and POVs
Argument 3 and conclusion (1/1)
Now for the third and last argument which is about meaning in songs. You talk about Ghosts that we Knew, and say that no video game music can tell a story like that, well to that i will give you one example out of many, Sealed Vessel. Now you’re gonna say that even with what i talked about at the start if you didn’t play the game you can just get a general idea of the story but not the full story of The Hollow Knight and how tragic his life is but that’s exactly the point im trying to make. Lyrics don’t matter, they’re the same as needing to play the game to fully get a soundtrack, because if you listen to a song for the first time your focus isn’t gonna be understanding the lyrics, to actually fully understand what a song is about you need to do some research, or someone tells you about it. It’s exactly the same as VGM, but even less accessible because in order to understand lyrics you need to speak the language, music doesn't have this problem hence music and lyrics being something different and separate. Music has no barrier, everyone can understand it, and when you talk about the part of the song where he sings “promise me we’ll be alright” and does it happily, the reason it’s happy is clearly not because of the lyrics but because of the composition. The song is in the Key of C Major, to make it simple major keys are happy, but here most of the melodies are sung in the relative minor of the key which is A minor, a minor key sounds sad. But when he says the line one last time he finally sings in the “right” key which is C major and hence sounds happy. So basically there is no difference between modern music and VGM, both are accessible and relatable to everyone and share a story, a meaning. It seemed you only considered songs with lyrics to be real music, which would mean you don't have respect for instrumentals either, but that would dismiss genres like House/electro like Contact by Daft Punk, Jazz with a lot of instrumentalists, Django Reinhardt, Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale, Guthrie Govan etc… btw talking about jazz and electro there’s a lot of footage in your video from Dave the Diver which has a soundtrack that takes influence from both genres so by saying you don't respect this soundtrack you’re not respecting the genres either. And here’s the thing: Video Game Music isn’t a genre, it’s a medium and that’s what makes the beauty of it. When you say VGM didn’t revolutionize anything you’re wrong, because it’s the only medium where music knows no boundaries, in the same soundtrack you could get Djent, followed by Baroque, then Jazz, then electro, to some Trap maybe. There are no genre barriers, which gives the artist complete freedom, compared to other bands/artists who often need to stay in a genre otherwise they get shit on. Not saying modern musicians dont break barriers either, Daft Punk did it in Random Access Memories, and so did Avenged Sevenfold in their latest album Life is But a Dream…, and Mr Bungle completely don’t give a fuck a bout the rules lol. But it’s not something really common, which makes video game music special.
Thanks for reading and I hope your views have changed even just a bit.
@@n00bmaster62 this is so good that I think I’ll make a video responding to it, if you don’t mind
I think after watching this, a big reasoning for this disagreement is that no singular person can relate to every relatable thing at once. Relatability isn't something that can be measured on a scale. It's something that connects with us as individuals. Now emotion itself is a more proven element that I've seen done extremely well in almost every genre of music (Even ones I don't relate to), but that's why emotion is a little bit different than relatability.
YOU may not relate to video game music, but WE do. I'll even take an example from your video here. You said you don't relate to the main theme from The Legend of Zelda; I do. It's the embodiment of adventure to me. I could easily imagine myself in Link's shoes exploring Hyrule, armed with a sword and shield, exploring the ins and outs of Hyrule in my quest. There's other Zelda compositions I feel the same way about, like Hyrule field from Ocarina of Time.
I do not relate to a musician like Taylor Swift, but I don't believe most of her songs are objectively bad. It relates to a ton of people, just not me, and so I would never criticize it's relatability just because I myself don't understand it. But I think you do this with videogame music. You don't relate to it so you say the art itself is less relatable. That's just not the case.
For the emotion argument, I'd be useful for me to tell you that video game emotion is more abstract than detailed. This doesn't make it incoherent; it makes it creative. But in fact the abstract-ness of the emotion is what helps make it relatable to us. It's why I can hear The Legend of Zelda Theme and go "Now this is the epitome of Adventure." I think you only like the surface level emotion found in your average modern music which is fine. With videogame music, you have to think more out of the box about it. Videogame music isn't trying to compete with the same kind of emotion as other music, and whether or not it's background music doesn't retort the amazing elements that composers use in this industry.
I think if you knew more about what makes videogame music great you would have more of a reason to respect it. Re-occurring melodies and fragments that are found in hundreds of different game franchises (ex. Mitsuda's Lick, a fragment found in the Zelda franchise, Kirby franchise, Undertale, Chrono franchise, Final Fantasy franchise, Pokemon franchise, ect,) Compositions that heavily stress leitmotifs added to create incredible emotional moments to the composition (ex. Colgera theme, Tears of the Kingdom, Radagon's theme, Elden Ring, (Final boss) theme, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, ect,) Or how videogame music uses emotional chord progressions and sequences that express emotion whether or not it's made with a tangible instrument or a computer software (There's no harmonical difference.)
Anyway I was gonna yap even longer about how I valiantly disagree about the instrument segment but I think I'd just get a ton of "Ain't reading allat"
There's a segment in my own video where I question the relatability of a few songs, but this was only a hypothetical response analogy designed to show the problem with critiquing music based on relatability alone, and it doesn't signify how I would actually critique a composition in practice.
I believe emotion can be in video game music too, I just think it’s only effective if you have played the game. Otherwise it can sound sad, but that’s about it. Still good though, I just think Video Game music (obviously) relies on the game, where as other music relies on itself. I find this to be an advantage.
I should have clarified more about when I was talking about the meaning in the LoZ theme, because I agree. I think it does represent adventure because it have played the games. What I was trying to say was that there’s never been a video game soundtrack that can be extremely personal. Here’s an example my dad gave me:
“Last example: Bob Marley will forever represent an entire generation, from a specific point in history. I can listen to it in 50 years and still feel exactly what people were going through. Video game music doesn’t speak to anything that transcends time like that. The score for Elden ring will always just be the score to Elden ring. Not saying it’s not good, just that’s all it is.”
That’s what I meant in that part of the video. I believe it’s possible to relate to video game music, but has never got to the same level as other types of music. And I respect whatever level of music in that regard is better, more.
I appreciate you letting me use you in the video, and maybe I am wrong about all of this, I’ll have to see (;
@@Landooras someone that knows a bit about psychology, listening to music while going through, say, a happy experience, anytime you go back to listen to that same song, regardless of the new context, people tend to remember those happy memories that they experienced while previously listening to the music, this obviously also applies to video game music, so video game music has the ability to bring up happy or nostalgic memories even years down the line, in that sense, video game music can make that transcendence for individuals, let’s say you played a game and had a really really fun time with it, and 20 or 30 years down the line you go back and listen to that music, your mind will bring up those feelings and make you happy, that is why video game music is special, non video game songs can do the same of course, but it mostly depends on what you were experiencing while you were listening to the music, that’s why for some a piece of music can make them happy and why others might not get why it makes them happy, it’s not just the music, it’s the feelings from memories that accompany the music, and that goes for all music
@@dreamareakoso3791I agree, but that doesn’t really contradict what I said. Like, I think certain songs have the ability to be relatable on a deep personal without the things you mentioned, like the feelings from the memories, whereas I feel the exact opposite with video game music.
Basically, I believe songs have the power to be relatable on a personal deep level in multiple different ways, whereas I can’t say the same for video game music.
@@LandoorFor what your dad said, I think I can provide an example of video game music that defines an entire generation in a different way.
Minecraft.
Now, I've never listened to Bob Marley, to be honest I vastly prefer video game music to traditional music, but the old music of Minecraft specifically made by C418 still makes me feel the exact same emotions that I did 12 (Goddamn that's terrifying) years ago when I first put in the disk for the PS3 edition of the game. The childlike wonder and whimsy then is immaculately captured in the original track, and since then those emotions have evolved into a mix of melancholy and longing: nostalgia.
Most people are at the age now where they have fond memories of the times back then, when everything seemed simple, when simple math was your biggest problem, when the world seemed brighter, and when the only thing you could think of after school was getting online with your friends for a fun time of playing with blocks and fighting monsters. Minecraft's music now at least allows me to feel an ounce of that same excitement and wonder that existed back then, before reminding me that, that time is over now. I'm older, I have more responsibilities, and though I can't experience those old memories again, I can go on to make new ones.
TL:DR: Minecraft gives me an existential crisis
I saved this video to watch later because I thought it would make some interesting points...
Nope. Just absolute utter nonsense. It's not even about having unpopular opinions, it's straight up talking without thinking or knowing.
Yes videogame music can tell stories. Most do. But also most of them are done in the instrumentals, where most people are not understand/understand fully l, not because they're dumb of course, but because the common joe doesn't know music theory.
You give a classical musician a wordless theme music and they'll correctly guess a whole character or story arc with zero context given.
But then we have Guilty Gear Strive that has both that and lyrics for every character theme.
Show him the MGR:R boss themes, the DMC5 character themes, or Sonic Frontiers titan themes. He’ll then see what stories these songs tell.
I'm an aspiring composer for visual media and I would like to give my perspective on this topic.
You said that digital instruments are lesser than physical ones, but I disagree: they are very hard to master (you can look up how synths and orchestral libraries work) and, with a lot of practice, you can convey as much emotions with digital instruments as with physical ones. I say this as someone who plays guitar, piano and sings.
Now the meaning. I listened to a lot of videogame soundtracks without having played the game and I promise that you CAN understand the atmosphere and the sense of the game just from that. I mean, if you listen carefully to Dark Souls' OST you can literally see abandoned cities, demons and desperation. Maybe you connect more with songs with lyrics and that's fine, I like music with lyrics too! But it's a bit reductive... A lot of instrumental music moves me on a deep level, from Tchaikovsky to Namless Song. The meaning is more abstract, but it's there. You just have to interpret it
Tchaikovsky 6th comes to mind here. No lyrics, but an unquestionably moving piece
Absolutely, when you get to the last movement you truly feel what he felt. Also the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture: I can't listen to it because I always tear up when the love theme strikes, it's so personal
i feel like being a pedant about defenitions is gonna get you nowhere in any argument. if you say that computer point in front of some random person, they're gonna think you're some pretentious asshole.
@@hotpocketsat2am I actually don’t necessarily mind if anyone thinks I’m a pretentious asshole, because I already knew going into this that everyone was going to disagree and hate me. And there’s a lot of good criticisms of my video in the comments as well, and I appreciate it. The reality is that I was using the definitions in the most logical way I could, and if I seem right I’m going to stick with that no matter who gets mad.
@@Landooryea bro it’s just bias. I personally kinda hate your favorite song ever. I think it’s composed boringly. That is bias. Even them i could prove it by showing the common chord progression and through the simple instrumentation. Your lack of understanding how music is made causes your bias to be your only thing that you say. Your thought hold less value due to the shallow lens they go through .
Personally I think there's a separation between 2 kinds of video game music, for the sake of categorisation I'll call them Ambient and Active. What we traditionally would consider Music would fall under the Active category, it can tell a story (my go to would be 'Father & Son' by Cat Stevens), capture a feeling ('Happy Pills' by The Weather or 'Animal' By Mudmen), or showcase musical prowess (Almost every song by Polyphia). I feel like video game music typically falls under the category of Ambient, Music that isn't designed to take over your mind but instead lend itself to a pre-established situation presented to you by the game (which is also why TV and Movie soundtracks would typically fall under this category). Because of this though, Ambient music has its uses, for instance I often listen to C418's Minecraft, Jeremey Souls Songs of Skyrim, or Motoi Sakaruba's Dark souls Soundtracks while I'm working since they support you while thinking about something else and don't distract you too much from your task.
I think categorising all Video game music into this group of "Ambient" is also limiting since some video game music ascends to the "active" category either by their own merit or by just being good music, BFG Division and most songs by Mick Gordon I would argue fit into the idea of "Active" music since they are so visceral they capture the feeling of Rip and Tear, and while they do support the situation of doom like most ambient music, listening to Mastermind in any situation will capture the feeling of drive and make you want to power forwards, hence why it has "ascended" the Ambient Category. For songs that make it on their own merit, its far harder to think of them since its not really what video games are known for, but ones that immediately spring to mind are any of the songs by the "The Make Believes" from We Happy Few, who just genuinely have some bangers but exist entirely in the context of a fictional band within the game, "Sins of the Father" from Metal Gear Solid V and "Snake eater" from Metal Gear Solid 3, and any of the songs from the Guilty Gear Series (also Sega sound team just generally has a habit of crushing it). Any of these songs I feel like are good enough and tell a story without the context of the game (though admittedly snake eater seems more like schizophrenic ramblings without the context of the game).
Then theres the Final Catagory which I feel like is the ultimate defining line for Video games over everything else, in order for music to "bring something new to the table" as far as music is concerned, it needs to take advantage of its medium, which if its just playing back a recorded sound its no different to sitting in a concert hall 500 years ago, "Diegetic sound" is the true endgame of video game music as it cannot be captured within a disk in a traditional way, for instance "Space Warlord Organ Trading Simulator" has a series of different soundtracks that lay over each other depending on which menu you are in, and so by engaging with the game you are also effectively remixing your own soundtrack, this is the true new frontier that music can achieve within video games that has only just had its surface scratched, but at the same time is such a subtle detail that 90% of players wouldn't even notice it, so I understand why most devs don't go down this route more.
Ultimately, its all music with different functions, going on a night walk to the sound of "City of Tears" from Hollow Knight can capture just as much feeling as listening to "Long way round" by Stereophonics while just sat in my house (Rare song, made specifically for a Motorbike Series by Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman back in 2004), but in no way could I experience it diegetically the way that games have unlocked the ability to do these days. It all depends on what the director is hoping to achieve in those presented moments in the end.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
"Video game music isn't as relatable", meanwhile i sit there reflecting on my whole life whenever i listen to the outer wilds ost.
Okay I don't want to change the subject but I will anyways, is Outer Wilds like really good? I'm thinking about getting it but idk
@@Landoor I couldnt get into it. But everyone else seems to enjoy it, like a lot
@@Landoor it is very good, if you ever wanted to feel like an archeologist uncovering the secrets of a lost civilisation i'd say it's worth giving a shot.
I'd like to elaborate more but the less you know going into it the better imo.
And ofc, not everyone will like it but i think our tastes are similiar enough for me to recommend it.
@@Landoor It didn't make me reflect in my life, but I really enjoyed Outer Wilds. There's also no way to describe the game without dipping into massive spoilers. I will say though, that the more you play it, the more you learn about the game, and once you know it all, there's no undoing that. If you knew what I knew, the game would be about 12 minutes long instead of 30 hours. It's a mystery/puzzle/story/walking simulator/space flight sim. You'll probably never play another game quite like it. I don't even enjoy most of the games in the genres I listed, but it works here.
@@Aaaaaaa-zy3lw dang I may have to buy it then. It’s on sale on steam and it’s very tempting
This video seems very reductive.
What about dynamic music, changing depending on your actions in the game. in that case, the story being conveyed is what's happening on the screen.
What about leitmotifs, sprinkled throughout an entire soundtrack, telling a story through that alone, without even uttering a single word.
If background music is such a bad thing to do, what about Movies with their own scores. Every star wars fan loves tracks like "Imperial March" or "Duel of fates" and there is no story to tell, they're just backdrops to movie scenes. And yet people still love these tracks.
The idea that computer generated music isn't using real instruments because computers aren't made solely for music is a logical fallacy not even worth entertaining. Several Music genres rely on it and Porter Robinson fans would probably go to war if you implied his music lacks passion because he isn't playing on "real instruments".
On that note, music absolutely doesn't have to tell a story to be good, its enough if it conveys an emotion and usually that's the number 1 job of background music in videogames.
There are entire TH-cam channels built around people analyzing videogame music, what emotions its trying to convey, what's story its trying to tell. Videogame music is extremely important to give a game a unique sense of identity in a otherwise saturated market.
Videogame music isn't worse or better it's just different, like any other music genre.
I like video game music more than mainstream music because it's catchy.
I rarely pay attention to the story (unless it clearly offensive to my soul).
Otherwise, feel free to not respect video game music as much.
I love the catchyness too. I think one of the main points I was trying to make is that's not all I can get from music, and I can get a lot more. Still like video game music though, and I stand by the very good opinion that the LoZ Franchise has the most consistent video game music
Show me on the doll where video game music touched you
I have a lot of my own opinions and counterpoints and yadda yadda, but... three words.
Rules of Nature.
This is a very challenging video and thats interesting
I believe the first natural reaction of anyone whos passionate about the matter is to take this as antagonistic, but actually hearing what you had to say helps to take it in a fair way
I wont devolve into arguments and all of that because i already read a lot of good ones here in the comments
But in general, i actually came to agree im some ideas and disagree with a lot too, as a aspiring game dev and musician, this video serves as a bittersweet vibe check to my ideals
Thanks to putting yourself out there man, you're appreciated
how can a person be this nice woah
@etasjo im actually really bad at being nice, ppl say im being rude all the time😭
@@yall_girl_eve im a disgustingly horrible person so youre atleast a lot nicer than me lol
I actually really appreciate this haha, thank you! You seem like a really nice person
The idea that video game music is separate from "respected" music based on its ability to tell a "story" is confusing. Not only does this ignore the plethora of video games that use leitmotifs, the same technique used all the way back on symphonies with multiple movements to create a musical idea, but it narrows the definition of a what "story" can be, not to mention creating an arbitrary line in the sand as to what constitutes "valid" or "worthy" music. The focus here seems to be entirely on lyrical content for this, when many extremely well respected genres will forgo lyrics entirely, and generally the validity of classical, jazz, a lot of blues, a lot of metal, post rock, and so many other genres is really in question when it comes to worthiness. All of this, by the way, ignoring the lack of a unified genre of music in games to begin with, including many soundtracks using actual lyrical content for many of their tracks because its less a genre and more a medium. Video game soundtracks receive just as much love, effort, and talent as any other medium of music.
I think this is one of those times I was better off just clicking "don't recommend channel".
I think any music that shows the artist’s talent and creativity in an effective way is deserving of respect, regardless of it comes from a video game or was made using digital instruments. Just because a piece of music can tell a story through lyrics or was made by traditional instruments, that doesn’t make it intrinsically more deserving of respect, in my opinion.
I respect real instruments more because it has way more benefits than computer generated music, because of the collaboration and passion that instruments bring, and the talent as well. Being able to tell a story is a quality that other music has that video game music doesn’t have. I believe if I’m respecting the definition of “respect” I find more reason to respect other music more than video game music. And besides, I wouldn’t care in the first place if the comparison wasn’t brought up
Ngl, I haven’t watched your channel in a while and in the beginning I thought: huh this guy’s voice sounds different but then you started talking and I remembered again lmao
i'm curious whether this applies to similar types of music used in other mediums - symphonies, film scores, operas - where no one song is intended to tell a whole story, but instead work within a larger body to create something more grand in scale. something like the dual sunset in a new hope, for example, is something that evokes a powerful sense of longing, but the music alone doesn't tell its own story in a vacuum. do film scores also not deserve the same respect as "regular" music?
I go by a looser definition of “instrument”, but ultimately my perspective comes from my respect for the use and mastery of unconventional or limited tools. Music programs, or digital instruments as you called them, are very different from physical instruments. The relationship between input (the musician’s actions) and output (the music) is a lot more rigidly defined. But, it’s also more finely controllable, resulting in the processes of composition and performance being effectively merged. The opportunity for deeper expression arises from there.
I’m a big fan of chiptune and other electronic sounds because I like how they sound, but also because successful expression through bleep-bloops is a challenge I admire. It’s like pixel art: difficult, limiting, dismissed out of hand by many artists of more popular mediums, but people make masterpieces with it anyway, which only elevates it all for me. Some of the best pixel art pieces I’ve seen were also created with purposefully limited palettes. I love vocaloid/vocal synth as well, where the quality and manner of tuning is everything. My number one favourite vocal synth is Defoko, the most basic default prepackaged option in the open source program UTAU. While most other vocal synths are made using samples from a human voice, Defoko is based on a fully digital text-to-speech voice. In the hands of a skilled producer, she has beautiful and expressive cadence, and some of my favourite songs were made with her.
When it comes to feeling personal connection to music, we’re probably just different in terms of what we relate to and how we enjoy it. Music from games that affected me the most is moving by association with the story of the game it’s from, but (to me at least) the music actually played a pretty big part in conveying those stories. The music from VA-11 HALL-A or Signalis isn’t complete without the experience of the games, but the story and experience of the games would also be incomplete without the music. Aside from association with emotional stories, I also get a lot of inspiration from instrumentals and ambient music just in general. Maybe it’s cause I have ASD, but I prefer being alone with music that I can let my imagination vibe to.
4:19 I dont understand how a physical instrument is superior to a virtualized one, especially in the context of synthesizers that is a very blurry line, as they are a computer with the sole purpose of being an instrument.
Please listen to Guilty Gear Strive, which is basically a metal/rock album, and evaluate everything you said. Or the Devil May Cry soundtracks. Or Tekken. Or Armored Core.
do you think music not made for video games that does not use instruments is less valuable then music that does use instruments? For example, any music in the "electronic" genre, or music that heavily utilizes sampling, not using any instruments of its own? If someone were to hypothetically use a Digital Audio Interface like Ableton to recreate a Bob Marley song (recording their own vocals, then using instrumentation tools provided in the interface to create the same instrumentals), is that inherently less "music"?
additionally, think about a song like Don't Forget at the end of Deltarune Chapter 1. That song has lyrics and tells a story that can be entirely separated from the game it is within. This song is simple, but it shows that a song within a video game can tell a narrative deeper than just background music. Or, would you not consider this video game music, as it only plays during the credits?
Well yes, I do value music that doesn’t use instruments less. I believe instruments is one of the best parts about music because of the passion and collaboration that’s put in. Take that away, I lose interest
@@Landoor You can have that with software too, it also allows for soundscapes that are objectively impossible with traditional instrumentation.
yeah this was made for the views huh
It was made for fun, my upload schedule sucks
You also mentioned a lot about how video game music isn't able to tell any story.
Does Music have to tell a story to be good?
It’s a quality that other music possesses that video game music doesn’t possess, which is a reason I use to make a point that other music is better or more significant than video game music. This is also an argument coming from the definition of respect as well, which was the basis of my argument; if I should respect video game music as much as other music.
@@Landoor do you know the difference between music and songs?
@@711_Camper Songs are sung, but a song is still music. Music is just vocal or instrumental sounds, and when it’s vocal it’s called a song. Music being able to tell a story is something I brought up because Wyvrn made the argument that Video Game Music can tell a story, when it in fact can not.
It’s a quality that all Video Game Music lacks, but not all other Music lacks.
@@Landoor what is video game music for you?
@@711_Camper Video Game Music is usually a score, and is used in Video games as a background to what’s happening in the game. Same with movies. Video game music relies on the game, while other music relies on itself. Video game music is designed to be heard with other elements of art, while other music is designed to be heard alone.
i've not got the time or the energy to truly tear into this, especially considering almost everyone who did has said everything i could ever want or need to say
I'll say however that the take that a computer cannot be considered a real instrument is probably the most uneducated thing i've ever heard anyone say about music in a WHILE. Why does music need a divide between "REAL" and "video game"? It's all music, plenty of tracks on either end with meaning and plenty that exist as backdrops or to sell a product, etc. If you think in-your-face meaning is the sole definer of what "real" music is, i feel bad for you.
When i first saw this my instinct was to wonder "is this ragebait?" because whew. Hell of a take... just not a very good one.
Video game music is just incidental music. It's literally background music. It mostly can't stand on its own.
Other music is not more significant. This is going to vary from person to person. That song you played in the video has no value to me. Music only has the value we give it lol. For people that HAVE played the game that a given song is from, its possible that song will have far more value to them due to the context of the song within the game, than any normal song could have. You can use that context to add more meaning into a song than 2 minutes and 30 seconds ever could.
You are writing the rules of meaning in such arbitrary ways. Why should we only appreciate a song if it is good by itself with no context? What about the song guantanamera | Playing For Change | Song Around The World? That song has so much more meaning if you know the context and history of Cuba?
No offense man. But everything about your video was wrong due to setting completely arbitrary rules to get your point across. When I listen to confronting myself from celeste, that song has so much meaning to me. The story of that game has so much meaning to me on a deep level, and it all comes back to me when I hear that song.
I have nothing against you man, you just shared your opinion, but you are just wrong
Liking something and something being objectively good is two different things. I like certain games that I think are worse than other games more. I'm saying that according to the definition of respect, there's all the reason for me to respect Songs more than Video game music because of everything I've said. I don't take offense, I just don't think you understand my points. Songs can be more personal about real life issues, I respect it more than Video Game Music for that reason. Keep in mind this video is really just my personal opinion, I am just articulating that.
@Landoor I gave an example of how a video game music with no words can be much more personal than a normal song due to an entire game of context. You dont have to respect anything, but to say all video game music is worse than normal songs due to being more personal is flat out wrong.
Also i brought up taste, because you keep saying the word objective on things it just doesnt apply to at all. Saying video game music is objectively worse than normal music IS objectively wrong, as that literally comes down to personal preference. Video game music has made me FAR more emotional than any normal song ever has.
You are describing things from your perspective, on what is impactful to you, that is different for every person. Literally your whole video would be fine if you said, in my opinion, instead of, this is objectively true. It just isnt.
I understand your points, its just ur opinion though
@@mystraunt2705 I never said video game music is objectively worse than normal music" I'm defending why I can't respect it as much, that's it. I'm not asking anyone else to have the same opinion as me. It is just my opinion, that's the point, I'm just articulating that. I will say, Songs have way more potential for deep personal relatable meaning than video game music. It does vary, but in general that is true. I don't think anyone is going to change my mind on that tbh
@Landoor This may be a personal question, but have you lost somebody important to you? If so that would make the song you showed in the video a lot more impactful towards you. That context changes how valuable that song is to a given person. Are we allowed to take that into account when we talk about how “personal and deep” a song is to a given person? Cuz I cant see a single reason why not?
Thats what im arguing. Video game music has the advantage of having an entire game worth of context, story, and relatability to a song. That is the strength of video game music, just as normal music has its strengths. Im not even trying to change your mind, just expressing my disagreement.
Thank you for being respectful unlike so many others, have a good day
I just wanted to say, even though I fundamentally disagree with you, I appreciate the approach you took to this video. I wish more people could present their arguments as clearly and respectfully as you, and I hope you continue to make videos like this. As for the actual content of the video, here's my take:
As for your argument about "What makes a good song," you list three points: emotional reaction, the quality of the instrumentation, and storytelling. You also mention that "videogame music is meant to be background music," therefore it cannot (or at least, usually does not) have these elements.
The first point you explain is storytelling. While many songs, and even entire genres of music, place a heavy emphasis on lyricism and the stories they can tell, this is still only a fraction of all music, even using a conservative definition of "music." Jazz springs to mind, as some of the landmark jazz standards are purely instrumental. I don't think you would say that John Coltrane or Miles Davis are somehow "less respectable" than Mumford and Sons, but that is essentially what your argument entails. By placing such a heavy emphasis on lyrical storytelling, you have disqualified any instrumental piece from the category of "respectable music." I've seen a lot of other people with this perspective, and I think it's fundamentally wrong to judge music by literary standards instead of musical ones.
Moving on to your second point about instrumentation, both you and Wyvrn commit a major error in your arguments: you both cite dictionary definitions as support for your respective arguments. The definitions of words change all the time, ask any linguist. Dictionaries are meant to help explain words to people who don't know their meaning; they are not meant to be authoritative or prescriptive sources. Thus, your argument that computers are inferior to "real" instruments falls apart. Furthermore, the line between computer and instrument blurs more every day, with songs that use a combination of physical instruments and computer-generated sounds. One last point: Mumford and Sons's "Babel" was produced by Markus Dravs, who has also worked with Björk, an artist known for her experimental, electronic sound. This album was mixed/mastered/etc. in a digital audio workstation (DAW), on a computer.
Finally, you discuss meaning. This is difficult to discuss, although I think it symbolizes the main issue with your argument in this video: you're trying to form objective arguments from subjective criteria. You don't like video game music as much as other types of music: that is a perfectly valid position, and one that I can't argue with. But to try to support this subjective position with objective arguments is fundamentally flawed, and it leads to the argument ultimately failing to hold water. (This paragraph I've written is essentially a long-winded way of saying "That's just, like, your opinion, man.")
Your conclusion once again cites the dictionary (see above for issues), but I want to touch on something specific you said. You mention that videogame soundtracks have not achieved as much as other types of music. What achievements are you specifically referring to? If you're referring to whether it's inspired or influenced other types of music, that's a really nebulous quality that's almost impossible to quantify. If you're referring to accolades (e.g. Grammys), I would argue that those awards really only serve to validate the commercial success of an artist and shouldn't be considered as an indication of whether or not a piece of music has artistic merit.
To wrap up, I have a great deal of respect for you and the way you presented your argument, and I hope you continue to refine your argumentation and reasoning, as you clearly have a talent for video editing and narration. It's also my hope that you continue broadening your musical horizons, as there is a great deal of wonderful, powerful, awe-inspiring music out there, whether it's made for video games or not. The Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance soundtrack might be a good place to start.
@@darthintellus6136 I really appreciate it, thank you. A lot of what you said makes a lot of sense, I think there’s definitely more I have to consider
I like this vid as a direct and respectful rebuddle to another video, but I think you need to listen to more OSTs (which is what video game music is). As well as learn to listen to music in it's context, which is where video game OSTs excel. At it's best it can recontextualise a moment completely, tell a character's backstory without you knowing, and even challenge you both as a player and as the game character. Best examples of this is "Has to be this way" (Metal Gear Rising) which describes a very distinct moment as well as a whole character arc, and "Philistine" (No more Heroes 2) which is both a song that completely informs you of a characters personality and challenges the players and the main characters motives. Both are great songs on their own too, but in their context becomes masterpieces. To me it's like saying album composition doesn't matter, or that the artist doesn't matter to a songs value.
I arguably respect video game music and any electronic music without vocals more than "normal music" because of the way it can convey a story or feeling through its core sound rather than it just being told me through vocals, but each for their own
i feel like it just boils down to video game soundtracks being designed as one part of the wider experience of playing a video game, thus listening to a soundtrack without playing the game is an inherently incomplete and limited experience. i find that i only ever listen to soundtracks from games i've played, and the emotions i feel are mostly due to the feelings i had playing the game itself. this has been pretty eye-opening
Same goes for the song Guantanamera | Playing For Change | Song Around The World. That is the song of the Cuban people, and its more impactful if we know their history.
Why are we setting such arbitrary rules for the meaning of a song? Why cant the the context of a song be considered?
Cool Video, I haven't really thought about Video Game Music like that.
While I do agree with a lot of the other points you make, I disagree that Video Game Music cannot tell stories. Cause while most Video Game Music I've listened to does not tell any particular story (Emphasis on MOST), I have listened to Video Game Music capable of telling stories. And because of that, I believe that Video Game Music CAN tell stories.
I agree, I just don’t think it can tell a story without the game. It can maybe peak emotions, but because of the lack a lyrics, there’s no way the Super Mario Bros theme would be able to tell me how A Red Plumber saved a princess from a Princess unless I already knew the story beforehand.
As someone that agrees with most of your points, I completely disagree with what you said about music that doesn't have "real instruments". Most of the artists I listen to produce types of electronic music, sometimes having the inclusion of real instruments, but more likely then not they don't. Porter Robinson for example in Worlds made rich soundscapes that were meant to take you on a journey of escapism and in nurture he made more intimate songs about his struggles with finding meaning again. These are mostly done in FL Studio and by your definition it is a tool that is made specifically to make music and most artists I listen to would do the same. This makes your argument in that regard fall apart because sometimes it is the passion in the composition that can elevate a song not just the instrumentation. Other than that I agree with you because game music is just a building block for something greater but other music is the final product and made for the sake of the music and its meaning alone.
The one thing that video music has over real music in my opinion is it reminds us of the games associated with them. Sure, on it's own most video game soundtracks can't tell stories all on their own, but they remind us of both the deep stories some of the games have and more importantly, the deep experiences we as players have had with these games. Whether it be the pure entrancement within the games or even time spent playing the games with loved ones. That's something that the majority of songs from the music genre can't achieve. For example, every time I hear the iconic notes of the Zelda series, I'm reminded of the time spent being hyped over totk, my first time playing botw, or playing link to the past as a kid. Anyways that's my take haha! Great video :)
@@HeuzyGameDevYT fair, that’s a good point. And thanks!
3:27 This is the main point in this video that I agree with, and ironically the one where I feel you missed the appeal and value of video game music. Because you're right, by itself video game music can't tell a story. What it does instead is sell a feeling, and for me personally that's one of the best things about it: instead of the music being about some story that I may or may not care for or relate to, it's selling a feeling that goes beyond the game itself.
Going back to classical music, that's the main reason it shares so many similarities with video game music. Instead of telling a story, classical music sells a feeling with it's instrumentation and composition. And this feeling they convey is timeless, over a century later they still resonate with people, and can be used to enhance modern stories far beyond what the original composer could've imagined.
Obviously classical music is just as valuable as regular music, but what makes it "classical"? Why can't someone compose a flight of the bumble bees or hall of the mountain king today and have it be part of that same genre? The answer is that obviously they can, and have. But in the modern day, that style of music just isn't really commercially viable. It doesn't matter how good it is or how much listeners like it, a new classical piece could never find an audience without telling an explicit story. The only way people could find that song and listen to it again is if you give it explicit lyrics for them to put a name to. That is... unless instead of hearing that song on the radio, you heard it in a game, while jumping from planet to planet in Gusty Garden Galaxy.
The best video game music is able to do exactly what the best classical music does: sell the listener on a feeling that goes beyond the game it was written for. And video games as a medium are the perfect place for this style of music because a feeling is exactly what they need. You can't have this music on the radio because you're right: in a vacuum it can't tell a story, and even if the listener relates to the song anyway they can't recall it with a melody alone. TV and movies meanwhile are telling their own stories, and the music has to perfectly align itself with the story being told (only in a musical does it get to be the main attraction). But in a game, the player makes their own story, and so the music is able to go all out when it comes to enhancing the feeling of playing that game.
I won't try and pretend that all game soundtracks are this valuable, because a lot of them (probably the vast majority tbh) aren't. But for me personally, there's very few "regular" songs that I'm able to relate to. Especially in the realm of modern music, I mostly just think about how there were so many songs I heard as a kid without understanding the lyrics, only to realize later "oh yeah, this is yet another song about sex". But when I listen to music from a game, I'm able to just... _lose myself_ in the vibes. Whether it's victory road from diamond and pearl filling me with a bittersweet nostalgia, or reach for the summit from Celeste giving me the drive to overcome whatever obstacle lies in front of me, those feelings are only made more real for me by not being intrinsically tied to any one story.
This is actually really easy to respond to. The only reason I brought that up is for a reason Wyvrn knows, he said that video game music can tell a story, so I literally just said “no, it can’t” that’s basically it
@@Landoor I see...
Though, that doesn't really explain why you feel the critiques of video game music can't also apply to classical music. In my mind the differences kinda just seem superficial: as if classical music is only gets a pass because it was popular back in the day (when in reality it was popular because sheet music could be stored and shared on paper while vocal performances could not). To me, video games music is just how that style is able to exist and be popular in the modern day. Since without lyrics for people to remember, music needs to be attached to some other memorable experience to find an audience.
I have to disagree about the computer being an instrument part, because it's just looping back to an argument that lights up the music side of the industry. DAWs vs Analogue here. A DAW IS an instrument that requires the computer to function. There are also DAWless setups and samplers, mixers, and the like. Chiptune, ambient, and other types of music used in video games are neutered, however these instruments and sounds CAN and HAVE been used outside of video games as their own separate music. I more so agree with your story telling sentiment. You are correct, games can't focus on their music usually. Juxtaposition this with Kajima's Death Stranding where he just uses actual licensed music and a few pieces created for the game. Hell Cyberpunk has an entire OST of ACTUAL songs that are made traditional artists and musicians. However ambient music exists in reality as well. Some indie games simply use real life ambient music, like some soft jazz or something similar. For comparison sake I would argue you have to find traditional music that is of the same genre or feel as the video game music, and then make a comparison. The example of WAP vs Mario Galaxy's orchestra is cherry picked for obvious reasons. It's not comparing something like the orchestra of Dark Souls to the orchestrated pieces that Hans Zimmer has made. Anywho that's my two cents, hopefully it has MADE sense lmao
So this video brings up some pretty neat stuff and the argument as a whole is definitely worth discussing, but ngl there are some pretty wack points. First off, you sorta vaguely name 3 things which make a "good" song: emotion (or I guess meaningfulness as you describe it), the instruments and how they go together, and "storytelling". Obviously you can like whatever you like about music and that's really cool! But it seems odd that you've kind of shrunk the definition of "good" music into this really small part and there are obviously a ton of loopholes in this statement. Like what about fully instrumental music without lyrics? The way you frame it in the video sorta makes it out that instrumental music is unique to video games which is a wee bit slily to me but probably just an oversight. However, when going through the comments, you mentioned that one of your favorite genres is jazz. Almost that entire genre especially from its roots is instrumental. This sort of depends on how willing you are to stretch the definition of jazz (which probably doesn't matter too much for other genres but for jazz specifically is a massive and complicated argument I won't get into here!) but ultimately would you consider all those songs that has no lyrics to be like a poorer form of how you define good, "regular" music? I mean that goes for all genres but jazz specifically of course. Also, your definition of an instrument is true but a really weird way of going about it. A computer is something that can HOST instruments and to diminish the existence of synths or any electronic keyboard is real goofy imo. Like yeah, a computer is not an instrument, but nobody would call a computer itself to be a video game. However, you can RUN video games on a computer in the sense that you can run instruments on one as well. I'm also just generally confused about why this matters at all. Do you just not like the sound of electronic music? Why does it really even matter what is and isn't an instrument? Just curious, but do you also think the whole massive genre of ambient electronic music is not as worthy of respect? Like Aphex Twin or a lot of Daft Punk or whatever I mean there are literally hundreds of examples. There are some incredible works in that genre and it's insanely broad, I don't know if you're super experienced with it or anything but just wondering. You also mention in the pinned comment that it can't be performed live. yes it can 100% can, maybe I'm missing something. I also want to say that the statement about emotion and meaningfulness in music is a bit odd. Like I totally agree that a lot of video game music is favored because of the context of the game, but there's plenty of examples of games that have (again imo) really emotional and strong music entirely separated from their games. And another odd point is the stressing of meaningfulness = good. How do you even gauge that? Like there's actually a very good argument in there where video game music exists parasitically no matter its format or genre or content, but just because it exists because of something else doesn't mean it can't formulate its own meaning. Just off the top of my head but the Silent Hill 2 ost is one of my all time favorites and works as basically an instrumental hip hop album for a lot of it. If you listen to it there's actually no way in hell you can't tell me some of it isn't emotional or meaningful, again, entirely separated from the context of the game. And probably over half of it isn't even electronic, but maybe your main argument comes down to the lack of storytelling? And to that extent this video doesn't have to do with video game music at all but I guess just ambient non lyrical work. Finally, at the end you state that video game music hasn't achieved all that much, which is SUPER DUPER silly. Chiptune is incredibly influential and synthpop and a lot of hip hop music has been highly influenced by video game soundtracks. Overall, while I definitely disagree, it's a very interesting topic you bring up and I'm totally willing to hear out anything else you have to say about this! I like your format a lot, so I'll check out your other stuff for sure. Thanks a ton if you read this (and sorry if it came off as a little scattershot lol)!!
I disagree with like half of these points, but I wanted to use a personal anecdote in regards to the point of storytelling -
Saba's "Care for Me" - is an album centered the death of a person and the effect that had on the artist, for clarity sake I'll call him the main character of the album.
Omori - is a game centered around the death of a person and the effect that had on the main character.
Omori without a doubt 100% is the work that had the greater impact on me as a person, and I think it is the greater depiction of the main theme of these two works, but if I was to listen to the theme of the climax before having played the game, I'd have NO CLUE that Omori was about death and depression, and even after having finished the game, the song by itself is significantly worse at conveying the main themes than Saba's "Care for Me" - which means it's a significantly worse depiction of these themes.
Videogame music absolutely is capable of conveying themes, however, as most videogame music is strictly instrumental or at most with orchestral vocals lacking in lyricism, most videogame music does a GREAT job at conveying emotions, but COMPLETELY FAILS at conveying themes without additional context such as a visual aid to match (which also extends to instrumental music released outside of videogames). This is completely fine, because this music is made with that visual aid in mind as such it's not a fault of the medium, but when the conversation is videogame music vs non-videogame music it has to be mentioned.
For me, I feel the same about video game music as regular music, because I don’t look at music as a thought provoking medium, I like it because it feels good to listen to. You’re right, regular music has definitely had more of a personal impact on people, but I still feel the same about both mediums, because I don’t really care about that type of impact when listening to music, I just like good sounding music. I read books or watch shows/movies for that type of story and impact.
TLDR: you’re right, but I still respect both types as the same, because I don’t value music based on impact
this is what happens when you give a gamer with a big ego and no actual musical knowledge a youtube channel
The thing is: songs and soundtracks are different things. The way I see it: songs are made to be the main attraction. They have meaning and a story through lyrics, since you have time to actually listen and comprehend all of it.
On the other hand, soundtracks are made to be a secondary, to set a mood. They empower the feeling you get from seeing the events of the game unfold. They are integral to gaming the same way lyrics are integral to songs.
To me soundtracks to games are like lyrics to a song. Without them, it would be worse; boring even. And as such they should both be respected equally, despite being mostly different things.
I agree, I made the comparison between Songs and Video Game music because Wyvrn did in his first part of the video, which I had a disagreement with.
3:29 MGR OST
Hey, I don’t agree with a lot of what you said but I respect the points you made. It’s really dumb that people would get this mad at you when it’s just an opinion you have about music lol
Also I love Mumford and sons
@@TheEleventhDimension Thanks man
I kind of disagree with the instruments part. Electronic music is pretty old. It's older than video games itself. Synthesizers were already being incorporated by bands before Atari was even a thing. Moog synthesizer is one example of such devices.
I FULLY disagree with the video game music can't tell a story statement, the song from Library of Ruina: Gone Angels, is about the cycle of revenge and this can be told without the game to accompany it (which is how I first listened to the song) this is just one example but I could think of more, I won't though because I have already made my point.
Okay but synths can tell a story and can have soul in them. This is coming from a sax soloist who cares a lot about soul
I think that the key argument being that it's worth LESS both in like general AND respect is an opinion that is almost impossible to backup and is probably going to be a hard sell overall even among musicians who make "regular music". Art itself is nebulous as to its function so this technically is an argument on the metaphysics of art itself which you're not super equipped to have given your willingness to assume plenty of things.
The primary point of your argument is that a nebulously defined "regular music" is worth more than background music due to a lack of storytelling, reactive elements, instrumentation, and meaning. I'll break it down by topic and argument for easy of access.
Let's start with the nebulous category of "regular music." I think this is easy to forget, but music spans almost all of human history. To easily succinct modern for-radio songs as "regular music" is just not true. Operas, symphonies, religious hymns, musical theatre, all of these are the origins of music and anybody who studies music is going to recognize those as "regular music" as well. Not all of those forms of music fall into active, with vocals, storytelling experiences and to limit the whole art form to that is objectively a mischaracterization made by non-musicians. Most of what we perform is not "regular music" which I think discredits the idea altogether.
Furthermore, I genuinely think this argument is coming from a place of misunderstanding how music works as an artform. Starting with storytelling. Music storytelling is done through music theory, things like dynamics, instrumentation, note patterns, and motifs. I think you fundamentally misunderstand that instrumental and ambient music lack any direction because you don't have the education to receive the work properly. This does include songs like the Mumford & Sons one, too; by not being able to identify how those songs tell a story (beyond the vocals) you're actively missing out on a fuckton of subtext and musical information.
Addressing the instrumentation, I have some really bad news for you. While modern music does use instruments, it also uses hyperproduction. None of the music you listen to is just some instruments and a voice, it's ALL run through a computer and edited to death and given some form of synth or digital instrumentation. Britney Spears, AJR, Daft Punk, Earth Wind and Fire, all of them use digital synth's in their "regular songs" as well even playing them on stage in the case of AJR. No serious music producer discounts a digital synth library. The best of these libraries are literally generated by thousands of artist's samples. You are genuinely wrong and probably misled about how modern music is produced if you're willing to overlook the amount of work music production takes and how integral synths and similar digital instruments are to the current industry. Being a non-digital purist is rare even among snooty musicians.
And I guess I'll tackle both resonance/reactivity and meaning in one go. This is a subjective one for sure, so you've always been free to feel disconnected to a work of art--video game music or not. I think the issue comes when you say it's devoid of meaning or reactions though. It isn't inherently less meaningful because you aren't willing to interact with the medium. This can be said for a lot of things too. Within "regular music" there are tons of genres (one of which being OSTs ironically for you) and not all of those are equally relatable to any given person. This is true of any and all art. To say a work is devoid in meaning and not react to it is literally to scoff at the composer who had to consider what to make you feel, how to make you feel it, set the mood, and actually create the sounds necessary to get the music to your ears no matter what forms or tools were used.
Context is also important for any music. Songs that are used in media like movies, advertisements, games, and TV shows all are often produced with the series in mind. Billie Eilish did a song for Barbie, there were plenty of songs for many of Disney's movies as well. Some songs have context that you'd struggle to fully interpret the song without. Hell most songs have a literal video to go with them. It's okay to express frustration at trying to interpret music without context, but it's kinda like trying to interpret a painting with no knowledge of the artist. You're allowed to be mad that it takes context to understand the art, but it doesn't make the meanings suddenly gone when removed from context.
Overall this just seems like a very musically out-of-touch perspective. It fails to really dissect music as an art form, uses generalizing statements not held by industry standards, and actively insults the artists who make the work you're commenting on. I'm not asking you to find them more meaningful or enjoy them, but I beg of you to not encourage people to believe certain music is "less worthy of respect/recognition" because they don't like it or view it as not "regular."
What are music genres you normally listen to?
Honestly anything besides country, mainly Folk, Rock, and Jazz though
@@Landoor modern country music is bad, old country music, specifically country western can actually be pretty good.
@@Halbred2 dude I agree actually, older country music, at least what I’ve listened to, is actually really good
@@Landoor "Anything besides country" - legitimately the most cliche, unoriginal response possible.
@@sharkymcshark3392 wasn’t trying to be original or special. Someone asked my opinion, and I gave it.
Have you not played the persona games? These games have such deep and inspired music, the obvious example is heaven from persona 4, but any track can be used really
No, I've heard they're good though. If i were to, which one of them should I play first?
wait till this guy listens to the red dead 2 soundtrack
Rdr2 is my favorite game of all time, I like a lot of the soundtrack, in fact its soundtrack is a lot better than a lot of video game soundtracks to me
5:04 have u heard of indie games?
While I see where you're coming from... most of these arguments are equally applicable the other way around when you stop and think about it.
First off, I have to disagree that "video game music cannot tell a story," in fact it very often does the opposite. Sure, while you're not going to perfectly deduce the complete picture of an area in a game just by listening to its music, with a lot of good osts you can at least get a general sense of the mood and maybe a rough picture of the scene from what you know. Take the infamous One-Winged Angel theme from Final Fantasy VII, right off the bat the song is dissonant and tense, denoting an immediate aggressive and terrifying threat. The rhythm is also a bit militaristic, and that becomes especially obvious when the main chorus of it kicks in (oh yeah, this one has lyrics, as there are many video game songs that do, but I'll get back to that later) when the snares kick in. At several points throughout the song, there are also more whimsical instruments and melodies that clash with the overall intense vibe, creating a sense of madness. From all of this it is possible one may be able to deduce that this is the theme of a powerful but mad soldier of sorts, which is a pretty decent summary of Sephiroth's character. Now of course the song title itself often helps set the stage, in this case the title might work against that previous conclusion as a One-Winged Angel would be a fallen angel, and as such perhaps this is only meant to sound epic and terrifying because this is the theme of one of the most dangerous kinds of foes imaginable, but I digress, this may not be the strongest example but I think you get the point. Video game music can tell stories, it just takes more effort to interpret them than a typical song with lyrics.
Another thing, I don't understand you point about "real instruments," if we were still in the old chiptune and soundfont eras that would make sense, but that's not remotely where we are now. There is a massive amount of video game music that does in fact use live instruments, and many non-soundtrack songs that rely heavily on computer-based instruments, and many of those samples have gotten so high quality that most people can't tell the difference between them and live instruments. Both mediums can equally express the same amount of soul, in fact one of the games you have in the background here, Blasphemous II, uses live instruments and has tracks that have more sorrowful soul put into their playing than almost any "normal" song I have ever heard, it's part of why I love that ost especially. Meanwhile there are entire genres and sub-genres of normal music that typically use almost entirely to computer instruments like electronica, modern dubstep, electro swing, etc. Another thing, the "real instruments" that modern normal music has can often not even be real instruments, these days samples have gotten so good at emulating real instruments that often composers and artist alike purchase them and use them instead of the real deal, as often only people with very good ears will actually notice the difference (I would know, I myself work with these samples and have found even ones I feel are low quality have fooled others with thinking they are real instruments). Both mediums use it because both are broad categories that encompass all genres of music, just with different goals in mind with their creations.
Now on the point of meaning... I actually agree here (for the most part). Normal music's biggest strength is its more common use of lyrics to tell stories and convey messages and feelings through words, and while there are numerous soundtracks that do have lyrics, they are definitely not the norm. Carlos Viola's "Palacio de los Setillos" will never touch my soul in the same way I do with Sting's "Fragile," and that's alright, this is where the goals in creating these pieces divides. Compositions in video games are meant to support the environment and story of the game, while normal songs are meant to convey complete pictures straight to the listener, and as such one of them is almost always going to feel more personal than the other. Now regular music does have a big strength here but also a big weakness, because you expect more of a personal experience with these lyrical pieces, when you hear lyrics that you can't vibe with for one reason or another, at least for me I reject it far more quickly than an ost that sounds unpleasant in some way.
Finally, this one kinda irked me the most, when you were discussing the way you define respect you claimed that video game music brings nothing new to the table... When I cannot see anything but the opposite. It's not an uncommon sentiment that modern normal music has greatly stagnated of late, it feels like most truly innovative artist either quickly goes downhill after trying to fit into trends or just remain kind of niche and obscure, which is in big part due to corporate pressure and the need to succeed off the music alone, while meanwhile video game music doesn't have to worry about being successful on its own and as such it can get very experimental and unusual (although corporate pressure can still be an issue, this being especially noticeable in many AAA games that tend to use strictly orchestral scores and don't innovate, but I digress). Genres can get blended together, instruments that have no business going together can be combined, and soundtracks will almost always have a diverse array of songs from all sorts of inspirations in a way a band often can't easily do in one album, and I think that's part of why I often respect osts more than band albums, there is often something there for everyone in one soundtrack and I often get to hear unique sounds I wouldn't have heard otherwise in an album where a more united sound is the norm. I would likely never have known I have a love for mariachi or flamenco if I hadn't heard them through Grim Fandango's "Companeros" or Street Fighter's "Vega Stage." I'm not saying artists can't do this, in fact there are some that do, but they are again niche and not the norm.
I feel like this whole thing can be summed up as you have different music preferences from people who like osts, and that's alright. Saying it's "worse" than normal music is like me saying rap is worse than jazz, which is not really an objective fact, just an opinion I have.
I have a couple issues. First, creating a tone or "sense of mood" as you said, isn't the same as telling a story. That tells emotions. and that's an important distinction that needs to be made. I like the example you used. If a video game soundtrack has lyrics, it can surely tell a story. So what's my issue? There's no room for it to be personal like I've showed in my video. Final Fantasy VII's soundtrack will always just be Final Fantasy VII's soundtrack. It's not that it doesn't, but that it in fact can not transcend time and culture, like how Bob Marley represented an entire generation. He will always be remembered, and that's why he's great. As far as I know, there is no Video Game soundtrack that can transcend time a culture on a personal level.
Second, I believe real instruments are superior. Why? They have a shown level of passion, can be preformed, are a healthier way of making music, and provides a certain warmth that computer generated music does not provide. These are all advantages that computer generated music lacks. This is why although catchy, I respect Undertale's soundtrack less than Mario Galaxies.
Third, I think we agree about meaning then. I wouldn't make the comparison if Wyvrn didn't make it in the first place, because obviously video game music isn't trying to have deep meaning. When you talk about lyrics you cant vibe with, I see what your saying, but I can't let that cancel out when there are lyrics I can vibe with. Same with bad and good video game soundtracks.
4th and finally, mainstream modern music is rough. Not all modern music. Video game music doesn't have to worry about this, yes, but that's because it's not trying to be music you listen to without playing through a game. All the compliments you gave to video game music can just be applied to classical music. Classical music was revolutionary, Video game music is not. Which gives me less room to respect it.
I absolutely do have different music preferences, and I believe listening to whatever music you want to is best. But this video is not based off of my bias, rather it's the opposite. For example, I don't listen to Bob Marley at all really. but he's a key example I've been using in my replies to comments. It all comes down to what is truly Great, and I don't find that video game music brings anything for me to say "woah, that's new and revolutionary!" I respect it, just less.
@@Landoor on point one, can't say much there, disregarding lyrical video game music you're only ever at best going to come up with images in your head of what might be going on and not going to get some deep meaning out of it, which is something I personally really love and is part of why I connect more with soundtracks.
Second, I agree that live instruments are better than software (sort of), though I feel that's more just influenced by my instrumentation preferences. While you're not going to get the impressive skill and intricacies of a live performance from software, there is a very different kind of talent that comes with working with software to both emulate real instruments and make one's own crazy sounds. I can sort of agree that live instruments are more respectable considering the talent it takes in comparison to working digitally, and I say that as someone who works with music software, but I still also respect the work process that comes with using mostly software. Either way, that's not a very central point to the argument in my eyes, a vast amount of video game osts use live instruments or a mixture of live and software, same as normal music, and both methods of making music have their uses and places. That was what I was trying to point out.
On the third point, I think I failed to make clear what exactly I meant, granted its hard to because these are such broad categories with many areas that overlap that generalizing almost always creates issues. What I was trying to say is that "normal" music that is unpleasant, especially in lyrical quality, is something I find turns me off much more than it would with a similar phenomenon instrumental soundtrack. And to be clear I'm not talking about songs with corporate soullessness, that's an issue that plagues both soundtracks and normal music alike, what I'm getting at is an instrumental track isn't ever going to have me noticing messaging I feel is harmful or inappropriate, but rather I can simply vibe with and imagine scenes supporting just about anything thrown even if it's downright unpleasant, so long as there is clear effort and soul put into the piece I can respect and connect with it. In much less muddled words, in the personal meaning department normal music generally has higher positives but the same can be said of the negatives because they're more personal in a sense, hence in part I find instrumental tracks easier to get into and connect with because of this personally.
On the last two points, I strongly disagree that video game music is not ever revolutionary, especially not compared to most modern "normal" music, but that comes down to how you define "revolutionary," and I suspect our definitions are very different there, only trouble there is I'm not sure how to properly articulate how I'd define "revolutionary" myself
@brawlman644 I won't say much for point one either, I think our brains are just different.
You are right, people can like computer generated music more, but I feel that is subjective where as I aim to be subjective in my critiques of it. I think the fact that for thousands of years, people have replayed songs and preformed them is beautiful. I simply don't want to lose that, and that's a huge quality that computer generated music does not have. I do still respect the process that is gone through to make that computer generated music, I just don't respect the execution of the music as much.
I see what you're saying, but I never find it too bad when I find a song I don't like. I just ignore it, and listen or find music I do or will like. I don't think you should hold yourself back from listening to what could be great songs because you don't like some other unrelated songs.
For the last point, I should've been more specific. I think to gaming, Video game music can be revolutionary, just look at Mario's theme or Minecraft Music. In general though, I don't think video game music is revolutionary to Music itself because it doesn't do anything new that hasn't already been done before. The definition of revolutionary is this btw: Involving or causing a complete or dramatic change.
@@Landoor On the first note, I feel like I incorrectly described the way I engage with soundtracks and just want to correct that really quick. While I can and do often come up with ideas of the events playing out during the song, there's also some deeper connection that I can't quite put into words, the only way I can really describe it is vibing with it, just enjoying being able to take in the emotions being expressed and enjoy it.
With that out of the way, again I agree with that for the most part, I revere good music with live instruments more than software because of that collaboration and talent factor to an extent, though I don't feel that a song is inherently more respectable just because it uses live instruments. A bunch of people who come together and produce meaningless slop are not more respectable than someone who pours their soul into a digital composition, and I think it's also worth considering that often the people doing digital are just working with what they have. It's not just talent that comes with putting on a live performance after all, it is infinitely more expensive to work with live instruments than it is to work with software. Often there's not really much of a choice if you don't have the right connections, but that's getting a bit off topic so I digress.
Third, I'm not saying I let the bad bar me from the good inherently, I'm just saying it's easier to let an instrumental track take me on a unique journey than it is to interpret and connect with lyrics, and I feel it's easier to find the good instrumental songs than it is to find the diamond in the rough with lyrical songs, especially with the poor modern state of that medium.
Finally, I disagree that video game music just retreads old ground and never does anything new, in fact I feel it is often far more innovative than a lot of "normal" music, I have never heard anyone else do anything quite like the wacky mixture of ethnic and orchestral sounds found in the modern Rayman soundtracks, the combination of mariachi and big band in Grim Fandango, or the fun combination of retro sounds with rock and funk in Pizza Tower. Now those soundtracks obviously all have clear inspirations, but that is equally true of any music considered as revolutionary, all art is derivative after all. And sure, none of this is truly revolutionary, only one of these really got close to starting a trend, but I feel we're not really in an era where it's possible to be truly revolutionary in music because of how vastly it has now expanded, at this point all there can really be is experimentation and improvement. As such, I feel it's unfair to hold it to the standard of needing to be capable of starting a revolution when by its nature all it can really do is have incremental influence. I think all of that also applies to "normal" music anyways, and considering how that is currently in a rough state and is definetly not showing any signs of having a major revolution, I think this argument really falls apart there. I have a feeling you'll bring this up so I'll go ahead and address it first, I've seen you mention elsewhere that normal songs have the power to "change the world," and while in a certain sense that is true of some cases, I think that depends on what you mean. If you mean a revolutionary change, that often depends far less on the songs themselves and moreso on a movement that simply associates with it, and those songs are very few and far between so I don't feel it's fair to argue on those lines. If you mean a more subtle influential level, than yes, that is a strength that this medium typically has that soundtracks do not often possess. I don't think that inherently makes it more respectable however, as this influence can have both positive and negative effects. I feel like the ultimate summary of my view is songs should be judged and respected more on their own merits rather than by the medium through which they were made. There are soundtracks that are better and more respectable than normal music, and there is normal music that is better and more respectable than soundtracks. It can't be dumbed down to soundtracks are generally less respectable than normal music in my eyes, as both categories are far too broad and have a massive overlap and personal preferences will almost certainly interfere at that scale.
I feel like this argument falls apart in the context of genres that usually don't have lyrics like classical music or just instrumentals as a whole and thus can't tell a story at least in a conventional way, or even music in a language you don't understand but that's less so. If Toby Fox's discography is a lower form of music in part due to this then by your standards Beethoven is too. And yeah computers are not instruments but the music composing software definitely is, especially when most people who make digital music often use a keyboard which is of course an instrument, air isnt an instrument but you need it to play a trumpet, computers arent either but you need one to run FLStudio. Theres also musicians who dont make video game music that heavily use electronics to make music like Neil Cicierega/Lemon Demon for example, the violins in touch-tone telephone being a soundfont and not physical instruments being played doesn't detract from the quality of the song. This is kinda just a taste thing rather than something subjective since what you would consider more serious music can share elements of why you think video game music shouldn't be taken seriously.
@@paxvictori2385 I think I agree that I should have expanded on lyrics and songs vs instrumentals, yes. That’s a video for another time. Toby Fox being compared to Beethoven isn’t necessarily fair though. Beethoven made his songs with real physical instruments, and was revolutionary for what he brought to the table. Undertales sound track, while catchy, doesn’t bring anything new to the table. I respect Beethoven and classical music for their significant impacts historically and their achievements. I can’t say the same about video game music. Also I agree that softwares could be considered instruments in a sense if that’s the soul purpose. However I believe physical instruments are superior due to collaboration, passion, physical talent, and being able to show all of this to a live audience. That’s actually why I respect Mario Galaxies soundtrack more than Undertales.
@@Landoor There are two things I disagree with here, for one I don't think collaboration should be the standard for what makes something superior and more respectable in the music field. Many "normal music" artists create songs entirely on their own, which itself is a very impressive talent considering many people only ever learn one or two instruments. Furthermore, perhaps you don't mean it this way but saying that because toby did his songs digitally means he has less talent and passion is a disservice to his work in my eyes, he was a self taught as a musician after all, and it is far from effortless to score an entire game solely on one's own. The other note I have is that Toby's songs have more impact than I think you give them credit for. He started, or at the very least popularized, making music almost solely with old chiptune and soundfont samples and mixed and matched them in unique ways, and now there is a massive community centered around that emulating and experimenting with that style, though I suppose that's arguably very much in part because of the success of his games.
@@brawlman644 Collaboration is one of my favorite parts of music. Multiple people coming together and creating beautiful sounds has been one of the big selling points of music since forever. Toby absolutely does have talent, don't get me wrong. I just think talent that you can show live is better. These are both qualities that video game music lacks which gives me more reason to respect other music. Toby had a huge impact for sure, to the gaming community. But other music that doesn't rely on a game has the power to not only impact a big community, but the world. I find this more respectable.
@@Landoor One thing I would like to correct, video game music can and in fact very often is given live performances, even Toby has had multiple concerts dedicated to his work, though if you're referring to the original arrangements specifically then that just comes down once again to the difference between Super Mario Galaxy and Undertale.
@@brawlman644 No I know that, I meant you can’t have live performances for music that’s computer generated. I respect OST’s like Mario Galaxies more than Undertale’s for this very reason
7:07 the random pizza tower gameplay jumpscared me (also why fun farm it’s like one of the worst levels in the game😩)
Idk I just wanted to get footage lol
i'm like 3 quarters into the video, and it's kind of defeated when you consider video game soundtracks that have lyrics in their songs... and that's if we ignore how already this opinion is kind of a weird perspective to take on art
@@speccyisme5184 some do, but I’d say they don’t have as much of a personal meaning in themselves as other songs. Remember this is my personal opinion and preference, I’m just articulating that
@@Landoor You could grab most of the songs made for cyberpunk like the ones by samurai and they undoubtedly stand on their own and have their own meanings outside of the context of the game. And again, this is IF we're going by your pretty strict standards of having to have it's meaning defined by the lyrics of the song. Art as an expression shouldn't have to be respected less or more just because words were decided to be added, and by this standard even a lot of 'regular' music is now less valuable just because of it.
@@speccyisme5184could you give me a specific example? I’m curious
@@Landoor th-cam.com/video/_83urK9rO4U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tdZvHmDpBdVHvSxc
What about instrumental music?
@@SuperViolaBros it depends. I think my story argument is most defeated when it comes to instrumentals. I think lyrical music is more respectable, but that’s just me. Sometimes I want instrumentals for studying, or focusing. I respect instrumentals more than Video game scores just because I think there has been way more innovation in instrumentals and I like the use of instruments more, but that’s mostly subjective.
Anyway the reason I compared Songs to Video Game Music is simply because Wyvrn did so in his video, and I disagreed with that comparison, so I made those arguments. I respect The Beatles “Hey Jude” more than any Video Game Soundtrack I’ve ever heard. Hope that makes sense
@@Landoor in terms of innovation, couldn’t you say video game music was at the forefront of certain electronic musics at certain times? so much so that they have influenced ‘real’ music genres?
but yeah i totally understand, i just think there’s a lot more nuance to the topic
@@SuperViolaBros You’re probably right, I just like real instruments a lot more than computer generated music or digital instruments, and so electronic music has always seemed less respectable to me
0:25 Bro... I'm not even gonna troll you, this must be some kind of trap.
I can tell this guy is super young and firmly in his "I know more than most people about this, despite knowing nothing about this" phase, which is fine we all had one.
Video game music is music, and it isn't better or worse than any other music. I will agree though that most people who listen to videogame music are very incurious and unadventurous and almost never listen to other music outside game OSTs. We've all known someone who listens to exclusively videogame music and how cringe that was. So I can understand how videogame OST's might give someone "the ick" as they say.
Also, Mumford and sons are a really shitty band. If you are trying to flex how much of a musical genius you are, calling Mumford and Sons your favourite band is a terrible way of doing it. In my day they were treated like Nickelback, you'd never admit to liking Mumford and Sons out of fear of getting laughed at. Another reason why I reckon you're probably a teenager.
Your problem seems to be with music without lyrics, as you seem to relate to music mostly through it's lyrical themes. Which is funny to me because in musician circles this is considered one of the biggest signifiers that someone isn't musically inclined. A song's lyrics is just poetry, there's nothing wrong with poetry, but it's not music. Being unable to listen to music without lyrics means you don't really like music, you like poetry with a backing track. Which once again, is fine, but it makes you uniquely unequipped to speak on what music is good, and what is bad.
Music has the power to be extremely moving in it's composition. Relating to lyrics is legitimately the most shallow way of interacting with music. If you can't appreciate entirely instrumental music on it's own, not connected to or associated with any video game or movie or TV show, then you don't truly enjoy music.
@@sharkymcshark3392 I’m 15, you’ve figured me out. I don’t know better than most people. So many people in the comments are smarter than me. Hell, Wyvrn being almost 18 is most definitely smarter than me. I made this video to articulate my opinions on this. Also, I’m no musical genius and never claimed to be. Calling Mumford and Sons a shitty band doesn’t help your case or any argument you’re trying to make, they’ve won a lot of rewards and Babel and Sigh No More are great albums. I don’t think anyone should get laughed at for what music they like. If you like video game music a lot, I wouldn’t laugh or challenge you. I’m not trying to change anyone’s opinions here. I’m articulating mine.
@@Landoor If you're only 15 I respect you because your video editing and your way of speaking is great for someone your age, I thought you'd be 18 or 19. Keep it up, you're really good at it.
But you need to listen to more music and broaden your horizons beyond what you hear on the radio. I guarantee when you get older you'll look back at this video and won't believe you had these opinions. If I made videos at 15 I'd probably have way worse opinions though to be fair.
My dig at Mumford and Sons, is that they're widely considered pretty corporate and shallow radio friendly folk rock by most people. So it's hard to make a point that they have more artistic value than some of the all time great video game composers like Akira Yamaoka.
The ironic thing is that people obsessed with video game music actually really annoy me. I knew a guy once who would exclusively listen to music he heard in games he played. He loves the jazz in Persona, I would recommend some good jazz bands to him and he wouldn't listen to it. He liked the synth music in Hotline Miami, so I recommended him some synth artists and he wouldn't listen to them and so on.
I think the problem is that many people like to use music as a means to re-live playing their favourite game rather than enjoying it for music's sake. Which is a pretty lame way to listen in my opinion.
To summarise, there's nothing wrong with listening to video game music, but listening to video game music and nothing else displays a distinct lack of curiosity and ability to engage with art on your own terms.
Good luck anyway with the channel.
@@sharkymcshark3392 First off, I appreciate that, thanks.
Secondly, I've been trying to do that and will continue to of course. Maybe in years time I'll look back at this video and laugh at myself.
Third, and this may surprise you, I agree. When considering what they are now. Their new music isn't good imo, but their old stuff is fantastic to me and hits really hard. For example, one of their songs, "Reminder" is super relatable to me and my Dad and Moms story. I won't get too personal but the song is relatable enough to where I don't see video game OST reaching that same level unless it's from a phycological perspective.
Honestly I think I need to play the Persona games, I've heard they are great, and to hear that they have good music as well makes me more excited. I'll have to check it all out.
I agree, I like listening to the music for the composition and relatability.
I agree again, I listen to both Video Game OST sometimes and Songs and other Instrumentals.
Lastly, thank you.
4:00 what do you mean with "not real Instruments?"
A lot of Undertales soundtrack isn’t made with real instruments. Computers aren’t instruments
@Landoor Issue is undertake is one game while a lot use real instruments
@@GalaxyDashGD that’s not an issue, I said “some” video game music doesn’t use any real instruments. Not all
@@Landoor mario galaxy 🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵
@@Landoor Arguable
4:20 what kinda conclusion is that?
A logical one
bro hasnt listened to the risk of rain soundtrack
Or the Calamity Mod soundtrack
I’ve heard both lol
@@Landoor bro has no ears
Nuh uh
-Wyvrn probably
I like how he ended up giving a huge essay rebutting what I said
5:01 u cant derive meaning from the ost so there must be none?
Mumford and Sons is so good
A big reason that video game music is not at good as storytelling is because it literally never has lyrics. IMO
standing here, i realize you were just like me trying to make history.
True. I think if I could change anything in this video, I would expand on the story telling thing for that exact point
Metal gear rising? The persona series?
0.5/10 bait video (im commenting do im baited too lol)
I actually thought this video was pretty good 😮
To me video game music is like movie music, I acknowledge that it's good when I first hear it, and maybe even listen to it a couple times but nowhere near as much as I listen to "normal" music.
@@Halbred2same, and thanks
I went into this video hoping to hear something new, perhaps a deeper, structural or otherwise analysis of the subject matter. I was disappointed by an incoherent video trying to, seemingly, be the opposite of that (or any reason for that matter), and that really disappoints me.
1. You've refused to support your first point with any argument. "A soundtrack is incapable of telling a compelling story" is not only incredibly subjective and applicable to other forms of media as well, making it non-exclusive (which is not a bad thing usually, but you're trying to discredit specifically video game soundtracks here, not soundtracks as a whole) to your argument about video games, but outright wrong; melodies and abstract sounds *can* tell stories and convey emotion. There is no denying that. Is Vivaldi's Four Seasons rendered devoid of meaning and storytelling merit by its lack of a vocal? Similarly, is it "just worse" than "real music" due to the fact that it can and has been used in the background of something?
2. I can't fathom how unbearably stupid the point of "computers aren't instruments, therefore videogame music is less valid as a form od music" is. What are you even trying to do? Discredit the last ~60 years of the history of electronic music on the basis that it doesn't use "real instruments"? This point is funny and I don't find myself (or anyone, for that matter) compelled to argue it.
3. Your third point, about video games being unable to express relatable, grounded emotions, is trying to undermine them as an art form in order to further your own argument. I don't get this. I don't understand what you're trying to do with it, and I find that this kind of mindset is exactly what sets back video games from *being* an art and *expressing* those things.
Your points are riddled with elitism and a fundamental misunderstanding of what the basis of music and art as a wider concept is - they only aim to confess a lack of the vulnerability and maturity needed to critically engage with art. I find your attempt at forming an argument horribly uncompelling. I feel this to the extent that I'm unsure what to even make of this video. It's nonsensical, and the notion that a human being was to write, proofread and most importantly vocalise the script to this video truly makes me ponder.
Hi, let me clarify what I meant more here.
1. I was comparing Video Game Music to songs, like Wyvrn did in the first part of the video, and I was just saying songs can tell a complete story where video game music can't, it can only tell emotions which doesn't fit in the definition of story. Also the video is subjective, and my opinion, I'm just articulating my beliefs.
2. Your argument here is based of ethos, calling my argument stupid doesn't mean anything. I respect music that uses real instruments more than music that doesn't, because only real instruments can be replayed and shared, which has been a huge part of music for thousands of years. If music is using a synth, I respect that, if it's just computer generated, I don't.
3. Video Game music can never really touch people as often on a deep personal level relating to real life problems, which gives me more reason to respect certain songs more.
I'm not interested in how you feel about my video at all, I'm just interested in if I should respect Video Game music as much, and unfortunately you never prove that.
@@Landoor you've failed to truly dispute anything that I've said, I don't find your response to be valuable. Have a good afternoon and thank you for the input.
@@Akogiri I’m not interested in what you find valuable, I care about what’s true 🤷 you just asserted I failed but never backed that up
@@Landoor there is no hard truth here. Your assertions, such as that digital instruments are inferior to the traditional, are subjective, and they will never be anything else than that. Because you can't tangibly prove that, and you can't (or didn't, at least) tangibly and objectively prove that video game composition is inferior, either.
@@Akogiri Well I actually never claimed to be objective. This video is more of just my personal preference, Wyvrn thinks I should respect video game music as much, I refuse. I’m articulating why in this video.
Both used for different things. Video game music shouldn’t get hate, but real music is way better in many places
This video basically boils down to your ignorance on the subject, not an insult of intelligence you seem to be rather smart. Though you fall into a lot of pitfalls of letting your lack of understanding be proof of the objectivity of your reasoning.
I also just think it is sad that you feel lyrics are necessary to tell a story with music, you are missing out on many journeys. As well as simply disparaging the history of music all at once by proposing Classical music does not tell stories due to lack of lyrics.
Just like you say about Contemporary music with lyrics (songs) being on a scale of worthiness of respect, the same is true about Instrumental music. Which lets be real here this is not about Video Game music but Instrumental music as a whole.
@@SoloAdvocate we’d have to define story first. I think it’s explaining events for fiction or what has actually happened. I think video game music can absolutely tell a story if you think a story is different emotions that change, I just don’t think that’s a story. This video is my personal preference, I’m just articulating that and why. It’s not a belief I’m trying to force on others
@@SoloAdvocate also I’m talking about video game music vs songs, not instrumental music vs songs. Remember the reason I’m talking about that is because of the comparison Wyvrn made at the beginning
5:35 lol?
Si respondes a este comentario eres gay, este video es genial! 🥰
I'll have to disagree with your point of it not being able to be replayed. Even in cases where the song is 8bit or robotic, many people have played songs like that with real instruments. Using your example of undertale, almost everyone of those songs can and have been played on real instruments and use the same scale as instruments. They use the same pitches of real instruments, they use the same notes as real instruments so saying they can't be replayed is just flat wrong, on top of that there are REAL INSTRUMENTS that use that 8bit or robotic sound, Keyboards, synths, keytairs, and theremins are from the top of my head and all of which take time to practice and learn just like any other instruments and can be played in front of people and used to recreate many in-game songs. Not to mention that many in game songs have can in fact have all the elements of emotions and story telling my favorite example of music telling a story is that if ultrakill. If you listen to the OST or just some of the boss music in general you can feel the rage, energy, or in a certain case sadness of said boss and can understand even without someone telling you that this is a great battle. For example the song order. If you listen to the music from the lust layer in ultrakill followed up by order you will here the Motifs from said earlier songs, in fact the entirety of lost copies elements from songs previously heard in the same layer, taking you on this journey throughout said layer until you fight the "big bad" and though it's not a super complex story, it's one of violence and chaos, but it's a story nonetheless.
Yea but, that just gives me more reason to respect real instruments more then. Also, even if you could make that argument, popular music is currently being played in every city around the world and is open to anyone going to witness it whereas some obscure video game song is virtually limited to playing the game or downloading the song, you don't have the opportunity of playing video game music live very often.
@Landoor The songs being obscure doesn't mean it deserves any less respect. That's like saying a band who plays some of the best music you've ever heard doesn't deserve as much respect because it's harder to find their music. Nothing is stopping people from listening to game music other than the idea that you can only enjoy while playing the game, which just isn't true. People still put blood, sweat, and tears into the music nonetheless. For example, Warframe. They have an entire orchestra with vocalists and have made many beautiful works of music that took work from many people, and almost all of the songs can be enjoyed without playing the game. Do they deserve less respect simply because the music they make is put into a game? No, it's easy to say that video game music is more obscure than popular, so it is therefore not as respectable, but in reality, it's just music. It's on all the same platforms as any other artist. Just people haven't heard the music. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be as respected. It just means people haven't discovered it yet. Just like any other indie band who may or may not make amazing music.