if you love it, you love it! my goal isn't to persuade anyone of anything. I'm sure there's lots of music I love that "critics" would suggest isn't that great.
You don't need to understand music technically to like ANY kind of music, including his. You will hear things that nobody else can do but whether that upsets you or startles you or just sounds fresh - that's a legit reaction. Better to be open than closed in many things. I hope you try some classical and real jazz as well. Jacob has roots in both. I understand a LOT of what is going that is unique and that enhances it for me but is that required? I feel lucky about that but nope.
@@bryanleggo3489 I agree with this. Having a musical background is absolutely not required to love or hate any particular music. What works for you, won't work for everyone. If you do have a background in music, and you enjoy his style, it makes his songs that much more interesting
@@BluePhantomCavalier Of course. Also true of Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Chris Thile, Yuja Wang and hundreds of others. But JC's harmonies are especially fresh regardless of the cool theory behind some of it.
It’s interesting to hear different opinions on music. As someone who has been a mixing engineer for 6 years and been a regular session musician around the country, I thought his album was brilliantly produced, and most of the songs were really well written (especially from a harmonic perspective). Also thought bridge over troubled water was one of the best arrangements of any song I’ve ever listened to, and perfectly produced. Vocals were just so clear.
As a fan i do agree, Wherever I go and Witness me dont have a lot of lyrical substance, but the argument i really dont understand is how is considered soulless just because it's often jarring and dissonant
@@zacharygoody I'll tell you why people think he's soulless; there is no danger with Collier. Everything is boring, because everything feels safe. Whenever Jacob wears other genres like a skin-suit, it's just creepy and uncanny, he's replicating the noise in a purely mechanical fashion with none of the motivating ethos. Take the metalcore "breakdown" at the end of the first track; it sounds like metal, it has metal instruments, it's written like metal, and yet it sounds absolutely horrible, because Jacob doesn't understand metal, he can merely replicate it on a superficial level.
@@steezydan8543this makes no sense. people complain about jacob cuz he’s “too much” and there’s “too much going on” and he’s “headache inducing” and then in the next breathe, he’s “boring like disney” and “plays it safe”??? PICK ONE. cuz it can’t be both
@@SparklesNJazz It absolutely can be. You can play a lot of notes really fast but still illicit zero emotional response from the audience, which is what I'm really saying. High concept songs with low emotional value. I can't think of a more accurate description of Jacob's music than that.
Want to start by saying I like hearing all perspectives about peoples opinions on music. I know for me, I feel like his music scratches a part of my brain that I didn’t even know I could access until listening to his production style. I love that his music is experimental because it inspires me, and makes me think about the listening experience in a new way vs. Hearing all of the generic 145 songs on the radio. In regards to music that does have melodic lines, I feel like a lot of the songs we are used to being released today all use the same production techniques, and most are basic, and sound the same as everything else. And frankly it’s rather boring to me I’m thankful that he does mix different genres within one album, or one song, and that he includes his stacked harmonies and genius chord layerings. Because honestly, who else would have the ability to do the same ?? 👀😬🤗
Thank you for the comment! he has incredible potential and honestly I think he has a brilliant mind. But its like he doesn't flesh out any of these brilliant ideas.. you talk about all these generic radio songs, I feel like he does the same, except he puts them all into one track, but instead of incorporating elements from each one he just plays them one after another.
Boring? LOL! Many different international genres and collaborators yet all the same and boring. Same production techniques? What does that even mean? Explain to use what other production techniques could have been used. When you already have a cappella, full orchestral, small groups like trios and quartets, rock, funk, neosoul and Indian ragas. Explain what new techniques you'd expect.
@bryanleggo3489 When a song in a typical genre stands out its because they push that genre, make it interesting. When I listen to all the influences and genre's a Jacob uses it ends up sounding generic. Mixing genre's doesn't automatically make something interesting.
@@IcySnapsYeah Any mix like that is far more interesting than a lazy reaction/reaction half-review which isn't even about the specifics of the music. Headache inducing? Talk about generic. That's attitude - not thoughtful analysis. It was also far more interesting when The Beatles, The Turtles or even Ricky Nelson did it but none of those come close to matching the brilliance of what happens on A Rock Somewhere to name on cross-genre example. See? That was a small snippet of me addressing something specific an articulate way. Maybe you're just into being inarticulate or creating music or collaborating with other great musicians for that matter. What have you offered the world? This? Please. Checkout Adam Neely, Charles Cornell , David Bennet or David Bruce to see actual value and skill.
what if......Jacob Collier was fake, created by a clever marketing agency, played by the unknown brother of Timothée Chalamet. Trained by Sting, Quincy Jones and Jim Carrey to become the holy grail of music/studio influencers? His first real job for Native Instruments was very successful, I would say...
Idk why im commenting but it surprises me that no one brings up this as i find it very apparent once you understand the kind of person jacob is: Jacob is making music for the sake of music. Plain and simple. He makes what he wants. He is a prodigy, a multitalented creation machine. What does he make? Music he likes. Now, this obviously results in music that might be lacking in emotional depth and thorough exploration of ideas and themes, but only because he is purely focused on making music he likes and explores sonic landscapes through experimentation and collaboration. In some sense, i find his approach more pure. Does this mean I like it? Hell nah. But do i judge him for doing what he does the way he does it? A little but still no. He just doesnt make anything that i find much interest in aside from musical virtuosity and complexity (which is not enough) I prefer music that has a story to tell, with clearly defined themes and emotional depths. I think some people are on the same boat as me but havent been able to put words to it, oorrr... Im just some solipsistic narcissist as i tend to be.
For sure hes making music for himself and I think every musician should! As long as your having fun....but also criticism is the only way to grow as an artist.
I don't know what emotional depths means. His non-musical fans sure see plenty of that in his own music (check out the Mahogany sessions) or when he does covers. As for ideas and themes....like what among current artists and current music, That's been out of favor for a while.
@@ashleysherlock5705 It's mostly just the losers here making noise. JC does musically brilliant stuff and simple, raw emotive stuff a well that deeply moves many people, even if not these haters. . Watch the Mahogany sessions. Watch any concert like Lisbon or go to one.
@@ashleysherlock5705 His music doesn't have it...this 20 second video exactly explains what is going on with his music th-cam.com/video/DOlb9k4tz5g/w-d-xo.html
The main thing I feel differently about is the harmonies, I don't find they're intrusive for me, on the contrary I find them to be part of his USP and a big draw. About 10 years ago he was doing extremely complex covers of songs like Fascinating Rhythm and the harmonies were completely mind bending, it's complex music
Hey! thanks for the comment. I don't deny it's complex, one of the tracks I quite liked was World o World, but when you have these harmonies with everything else on top it just gets a bit much..
More so than you may know when you get into the microtonality. Are you a musuician? See link. below. The two chord sequences with Quincy and Steve Vai in All Night Long transitions are insanely innovative . He's simplifying that more in this album, probably to accommodate most of those collaborators but the one on A Rock Somewhere can practically match him on their own. th-cam.com/video/UTDHylJZMXU/w-d-xo.html
@@IcySnapsYeah You do need the ability to digest the harmonies. It's like classical music, it's not for everyone. Some people are happy with 2 chords and a straight beat
Listened to a couple of tracks and quickly realised this wasn't for me. Just because you know what notes go together, or what notes can follow others, doesn't mean you can write coherent music. I like to be surprised in music, but it takes a different skill to achieve that without the need for genre hopping.
@@bryanleggo3489 I've followed Jacob for years. I guess I was checking to see if there had been a change in his approach. There wasn't. I'm allowed not to like him and my reasons are valid. You don't have to agree with them.
@@thewaxbiscuit And I'm allowed to say that two tracks is lazy closed-minded bullshit and literally willful ignorance. The tracks aren't all identical or terribly similar. That's the whole point of the album. Collabs with different and international artists new to him., whether ragas or k-pop. What would you expect him to do that's radically different? Play the Brandenburg Concertos? Maybe some big band? This is the 4th volume of a SERIES, although each volume has very noticeable differences.
@@bryanleggo3489 my opinion is about the music. Your opinion is about me, on that I take umbrage. Personally, I prefer a more cohesive music experience. You don't have to defend Jacob. I can not like his music, and that doesn't make me think you're an idiot.
@@thewaxbiscuit Umbrage! LOL! Your "opinion" is based on 2 songs you haven't even specified and therefore is pretty worthless. It's at the level of "Yeah, I like Beethoven because of that symphony he wrote." It's absurd to think multiple international collaborations and genres could ever be cohesive in style if you mean very similar. It's absurd to think Box of Stars and Sunshine should or could be similar.
I never found before a review so full of jealousy and lack of knowledge and understanding of music, art and artistic freedom. If more people just express themselves instead of following industry patterns or already known patterns, it would all be more fun and reviews like this wouldnt even exist, because this guy would be making his own stuff and being happy. I truly wish more colors to this guy.
The only thing you can really fault Jacob on is his lyrics, which is okay because at least he writes them himself, If you have bad lyrics written for you then that's on you Jacob is a musician beyond any of our talents, his arrangements and texture building is literally one of the best in the industry and just focussing on the bad lyric writing just detracts from what you're there to actually listen to with Jacob...his instrumentalism and harmony building. Also, if you think this sort of genre skipping and all over the place songwriting is "Jarring" then I'd probably advise you don't listen to most of the late 70s and 80s prog scene aha, this has been done before and is nothing new but is super fun and interesting. Ultimately, his music is fun, varied and interesting.
thank you for the comment! I'm glad you enjoy his music! So yeah I definitely agree hes a great artist, you can see how much skill he has! I'm not opposed to genre switching or complicated sounds. i just don't like the way its been done here, especially with the music being so generic in the first place.
I believe he thrives off of the "What if...?" part of musical arrangements. I would assume this would be why there seems to be a disconnect. As for my opinion on his music: I wouldn't go about adding all of his stuff to my playlist, but I can understand and appreciate his creative and curious nature; it's actually quite refreshing during times where a lot of "new" music actually sounds like something that already exists or the music is just incredibly basic. Also, Bridge Over Trouble Water is absolutely amazing and will be added to my playlist.
You can definitely see how excited he gets from creating and exploring , it's amazing to have that kind of passion, I just feel he didn't explore enough And its telling that a cover is one of the more successful songs from the album
Didn't really wanna comment but whatever... I get your point, and I also think that he's on a beautiful journey, and I can't wait to see where it's going. The funny part is that maybe even this video will affect the journey. Either way, reality is so cool🐈
LOL! He doesn't and he doesn't even try. What a completely sub-literate idiotic remark! Do you actually think ANYTHING in good music is about "knowing every chord"! LOL! Collier is uniquely great at making related chords work together in unique ways but that's not remotely what the's about as a musician.
@@chillwalker You DID say that and now you're somehow confused about that. Or is bigger somehow automatically not better? Or does it have to be stripped down or nearly identical to be ok? You don't actually seem to have a point. Bad manners? LOL! Are you new to music and jazz and pop standards and artists regularly deriving from each other? What about Luke Combs. Tracy Chapman didn't seem to mind. I don't hear Lionel Richie complaining either. More royalties for him, too. Maybe you don't screw around with Bach or Mozart too much but that's about where it ends. All popular music is fair game. If anything is boring it is a cover band trying to mimic a great one but if people are willing to go see that, why should anyone be upset?
My problem with him is that, I love his view on music, his knowledge and his passion, but I really wished he was doing some other genre than pop. Which I can't stand. He has so much talent, he could be great at something more niche. He doesn't have that ''Bjork-like'' sophistication or artistry in his music. That's something beyond technicality. Maybe a taste thing.
My problems with the album are the exact same as I had with the last four - 1. He really hasn't got a great voice. His lows are watery (almost like he's singing through a mouthful of spit), his highs are shrill and thin, and his chest voice is usually covered under the layer of the seemingly-forced vocal tone he uses to sound a little more bass heavy. He may be a prodigy at a ton of musical instruments but his voice isn't one of them. 2. He often follows the mantra of "more is more" but he rarely stops to consider if "more is actually too much" when in most cases it *is*. Music is all about tension, release, and space - his music frequently lacks space because it's constantly full of these shifting genres and harmonies. 3 (but kinda related to 2). His arrangements are incredibly indicative of his music being self-produced and solo-arranged, in that they're full of hundreds of really cool ideas that have been committed to tape without really considering if they make the songs better or not. I've worked with hundreds of self-produced musicians and singers in the past and frankly most of them could be improved a million times over by having an objective ear supporting production and arrangement. Then again, if your first self-recordings are fawned over by Quincy Jones you're probably likely to believe your own hype for decades following that fact. Nah JC is not for me. I appreciate the work and ability he puts in, I just don't think it equates to strong enough songs for the attention they demand.
I think watching him work is probably what makes people fawn over him. I'm sure it's impressive! But yeah, it's the end result that ends up being all over the place..
I find this hilarious given the number of vocal coaches and music producers I've seen fawning over him. Watch the Mahogany sessions or concert improvisations if you want to see space. Or the one with Saje that won the 6th Grammy. They specifically commented on the space he gave them. For the big group stuff not so much space except maybe a little with Snarky Puppy.
@bryanleggo3489 but that's exactly the critique here. With other musicians he is a great collaborator. Alone he does too much. If anything, maybe he needs a band to reign his ideas in. Just a thought. I don't like his music enough tk give him a chance.
@@MistaZULE That's not the argument here at all if you man from the whiny kid of this channel. But it's a dumb one either way since this album is entirely ABOUT collaborations. There's not a single song here that's all him like it was with the "In My Room" album. The needs to be reined in is pretty absurd, too. He has a band. It's mostly the same people the last few years when touring.
@@bryanleggo3489 ok? So he's just not a very good collaborator? I don't know, I don't like the guy so I don't listen to him. The more I try to get into him the more I'm turned off because he's got such a rabid fanbase that goes everywhere and watches every video about him. He's got his grammies, he's got his accolades. Can you let people dislike him? We don't all have to fawn over him.
Hi man! Great video! It is great to see different opinions about Jacob's music. I have seen videos where people just hate on him and do not contribute to say anything else.
Hey! Thank you for the comment, I really do appreciate it! So yeah, I try to focus solely on the music when making a review, and the thing is, I don't hate him as a person he actually seems quite nice!
People keep confusing his being skilled at playing a few instruments and his theoretical knowledge as "talent" (they are not the same) and having those skill sets in your cap while helpful doesn't mean that you have "talent" or more importantly creativity, ...those things are indeed mutually exclusive. Jacob Colier is the prime example of this.
I disagree - i'd argue he's too talented that might make his music unappealing and incoherent for many. Most musicians are constrained by their limits so they concentrate more on what they can do to make their songs work.
He is OBJECTIVELY talented, to say otherwise is ludicrous. You mean to tell me that just anyone can pick up multiple instruments and play with such skill as him? Not to mention how well he grasps theoretical concepts and innovates them
I can't really disagree with you. I absolutely adore Jacob but his records are sometimes very hard to show to people because they can come across as a haphazard assortment of flexes. His concerts however are absolutely brilliant and i will listen to anything he makes at least once.
For me Djesse 4 is like black coffee. You try it once, and it sucks, you try it again and you are warming up to it, you listen some more and you're hooked. After a few listens your ear starts to adjust to the genre mashing that we aren't used to.
I will definitely come back to it again to see if my thoughts have changed, but at the moment, for me, It doesn't even seem complicated..it's just the most basic forms of each genre pasted next to each other
@@IcySnapsYeah I'm not sure if I can see that but I also haven't listened to Djesse 4 since I went to his show in early June. The other thing though is I feel like a lot of people love jacob collier not for the albums themselves but for his composition and incredible wealth of knowledge. Especially acoustic arrangements that he has such as his performance at the JFK center with the NSO and dodie and laufey of wild mountain thyme. Additionally, art is totally subjective, and I will die on the hill of 'dont yuck anothers yum' with art. Additionally, i really respect that despite the video and title being kinda rude and clickbaity that you're able to be respectful in the comments.
Valid critiques about his vocals, but I think it should be noted that he's almost entirely self-taught at everything he does. As someone who had minimal exposure to music growing up but an aspiration to do that, it's easier to follow his journey and motivate my own. This album was certainly an attempt to meld many different cultures and sounds (interestingly done), but it does make for a tough first listen. Some of these have become new favorites for me- it's fascinating that on a first runthrough these were tough to absorb, but after a few more you better understand what he was going for.
He's self-taught, but it's easier when you have grown up around musicians. You're very similar to me, I wasn't brought up around music really and have had to find the motivation to learn, so I understand why people admire him. Who knows maybe he will grow on me !
for christ sakes he IS NOT SELF TAUGHT his parents are top violinists and music teachers. They both have their own wiki. Your whole idea of him is a myth. If Jacob grew up with parents who were brick layers he wouldn't exist as a popular musician.
You for sure have the right to not like whatever music you want, but it is kind of weird the way your criticism contradicts itself. Like first you say that his music is all over the place enough to give you ear fatigue, but then you find it dull somehow? How does that make sense? Or you don't like that he's just trying so many crazy ideas or difficult things but then you act like it's not even impressive or difficult. Personally, in a world of bland pop music this has become one of my favorite albums, partially because it is all over the place and I have ADHD and like lots of different styles and genres. Also I love getting to hear little bits and samples of music from around the world, it feels very exciting to me. If you don't like it that's perfectly fine, but if you're going to make a video taking a dump on someone way more successful than you, you could at least be consistent with your criticism
Just because a lot is going on doesn't mean it's not dull and boring. I'm not sure how you can say he stands out in a world of bland pop, When this album exudes genricism. Whenever he veers into different genres, it's the most basic run of the mill sound. He might add some of his complex harmonies or some random chrod progressions. But honeslty it adds nothing.
@@IcySnapsYeah There's not that much pop in it though, or when there is it's Latin pop, or French pop or some other country. My favorite part about the album is his incorporation of music and artists from around the world. It's ok if you don't like it but you could at least have an appreciation for it
His musical genius is at such a high level that some people such as you will now recognize it as such. Nevertheless, I would suggest for all who critique his music to try to do even 1/100 of what he does and then maybe dare to judge him.. It's one thing to say you don't like his music and another to try to make him less that the genius he is. Whoever tries to do that, fails miserably in the eyes and ears of the talented musicians all over the world who can recognize a genius when they see one. Jacob is a one in a billion music wonder.
I hear from every one that he's talented and many many people praise and even as a fan going to two concerts it's a lot to hear. Instead of his talent people should consider his insane work and passion for the grind, it's stressful and time consuming and he does all the nitty gritty himself, which isn't too common in the top pop songs currently
You make some really legitimate points. He is so creative he can’t get back into himself, his heart. I think he needs to get his heart broken…. Back from a puddle on the floor he might re-integrate in an astonishing collection of songs. I believe in him and his process.
Yet his openess and heart is likely why his less musically educated fans like him more. The suffering artist cliche, fun as it is, is still a mythical notion. A lot of great songs were written by people who were so young that they hadn't seen much of life or hardship at all. Think of all the 60's and 70's troubadors and even The Beatles. Mere kids. Think of Killing Me Softly.
The thing about Jacob it's that he's experiencing music. So, for me, as long as he's being natural and really enjoying the process, then it's all right. It's ok to artist have good and not so good albums. I don't think the volume 4 it's bad. For me, the importance, it's that he's being honest with himself in the process of making music. We should not ask him to be a genious all the time, I guess. I liked the album though.
Thanks for the comment! Yeah, I don't often listen to music with lyrics either, but if you are going to have lyrics, why not try to make them interesting?
Absolutely and completely disagree. As an artist myself, I love that he doesn’t try to conform to basic songs for the simple-minded. He’s complex and I adore it. Saw him in concert last night and made me appreciate him even more.
“He’s lacking that talent and emotional depth” sums it all up. It is convoluted nonsense. It is difficult to destroy an icon like “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” but he succeeded in doing that.
Wow. Pathetic. That's the one deservedly getting the most attention. A Grammy wouldn't surprise me. So I guess the rest of what you say about the others songs is even more useless, not that you said much at all. Quite typical, really.
Sorry but it seems you might be jealous hahaha. He isn't showing off, he is experimenting and having fun, and that's why it can be a little messy. I feel that this album actually has a lot of connexion and emotional depth, being The album of making music with others, having really warm, comforting (and rich) calmer songs, and being reflexive on being the final part of Djesse (box of stars part 2 is a really powerfull track when you know the other albums and try to understand the narrative). I guess you have to know what the album is to really like it. Also I'm in awe of the humor and storytelling that it includes, to me Jacob Collier's approach to making music in a non-conventional way is quite groundbreaking and it doesn’t look like you were too sensitive to it (duh there is metal in 100 000 voices because it's part of a joke). The jump in genres and constant changes and modulations in the songs are a huge part of what jacob collier is, you either love it or you find it tiring. Maybe that's why you didn't like the contrast between the songs, but I loved the diversity. To me every song belonged. I didn't quite like WELLLL in the first place, so i get you, but then i did, and maybe will you 🤷♂️. To me the Djesse cycle is a fun exploration trip through different types of music, and it should be appretiated as so. The trip ends with Box of Stars, with the death and going to paradise of djesse (J.C lol), and with resurection and renewal with World O World. Jacob has accomplished his trip and can start a new music experience in his next albums. So to me criticism regarding the experimental, explorating, constanly changing, and not trying to be good aspect of this album isn't really relevant.
Nice comment. I don't think it is jealousy per se but often times there is subdued resentment when a person starts off with derogatory comments about his genius, music theory or in this knowing about augmented chords. I was at the live concert premiere of World O World at the Kennedy Center. I'd call it a show stopper except that it was one of several along with the audience choir which I didn't even know was a thing. It was amazing. One Vol 4 Bridge and On a Rock Somewhere are my two initial favorites and the Boxes of Start are just ok. The only song I didn't like was Mi Corazon because it sounded intentionally commercial and uninspired. I guess the guy is a big name and its' marketing. What's the joke in the metal?
Satirical jump from vocal resolution to hard deep metal, plays on some of his earlier orchestral stuff. It just shifts straight into hardcore metal but for like 12 seconds@@bryanleggo3489
Listen to some actually experimental music and this isn't it. Sure he's playing around and having fun with old and established genres and sounds. This album is like musical finger painting.
Agreed. Also, the album feels overly compressed, which makes the points you bring up even more evident. So much stuff going on with no dinamycs and separation just makes for a bad experience, some songs literally hurt my ears XD. The low end sounds muddy, and then anything above 2K sounds piercing, there's this weird digital distortion going on there. Also there's no single memorable melodic line on the album, except for maybe Never Gonna be Alone. I don't want to sound like a hater but that's been his career basically, no memorable melodies. He desperately needs a good pro producer to guide him.
These are the kinds of silly bad production type comments from amateurs that amuse me me so much. Well,I hope an amateur. The remark about melodic lines is even worse if not delusional. You sound like a hater and an ill-informed one..
I mean I have a feeling this is going to be similar to my feelings on Jacob. It's all very nice but I cant wait for him to sit down and write some actual music. Also I love jazz. So its nothing to do with harmonic complexity.
It's interesting because from what I can tell his mind really loves to go here, there and everywhere. so it would be good to see what he could make if he really focused one one core idea!
@@IcySnapsYeah I think he needs to work with a musician that can take his frenetic creative energy and refine it down. As you said dumping a heap of the tracks in logic would have no doubt alone made it more interesting and listenable. There is just no restraint, no nuance. Its like you know when parents have showbiz children and they scream sing everything because they are told to project.
i'm kind of surprised none of his collaborations told him to rein it in a bit. I think a good technique would be to listen to the track, remove some elements and see how much of a difference or even noticeable it is!
I agree that knowing music theory in and of itself won’t make you appreciate his music more, but ear-training will - being able to perceive some of the stuff he does. Call me stuck-up if you want :) PS I think a lot of the criticisms here are valid…
Thank you for the comment! I don't think you're stuck up at all! :) I think for me, even if my ears aren't fully trained, I can still hear if something sounds good or not. And I know it doesn't matter if the piece of art sounds bad. For example, John Cage is considered a great sound artist. But his work isn't nessisary pleasing to the ear. But the difference for me is John cage pushes those boundaries in unique ways.
Jacob is more of a chemist than an artist. He has bionic hearing and is one of the best arranger/orchestrators I've ever heard. One particular section of his miraculous acappella rendition of "Moon River" opened up the heavens and permanently changed the way I hear harmony. But that genius musician cannot song write his way out of a paper bag. It's all cut and paste appropriated drivel drooling down to nowhere. And for all his compositional sophistication, it all sounds predictable now. I can hear his formula and I don't want to hear it. I'm not supposed to hear it. I can't wait to see what he does after he finally hits the wall artistically and can no longer stand the sound of his own musical thoughts. Debussy had something like that happened to him and after smashing his fists on the piano in frustration he was musically reborn and started composing cosmic dreams like Clair de Lune at the age of 30. I'm hoping Jacob soon transcends the mediocrity of his own genius.
I am a big fan of Jacob Collier and yet I agree with almost every single point you made. I think Box of Stars 2 was good and you kinda skipped over the rnb type stuff which is some of my favorite songs in it! I agree 100% that a lot of his music lacks soul. My favorite Jacob Collier album is still his first - In My Room. Djesse 4 had me excited, but when Mi Corazon released early, my hope died that it would be a sonically cohesive album. I actually really like WELLLL, so I thought it was interesting that you said it was the worst. IMO, the worst on the album is either 100,000 Voices or She Put Sunshine. Subscribed
Hey, thank you so much! I appreciate it a lot! It's clear how talented he is and that's why it's so confusing how he can make something so robotic.. As for the song WELLL, for me, it kind of highlights the issue's of the album, too many layers, over saturated, robotic etc
@@IcySnapsYeah My favorite things that he creates are either songs featuring other vocalist (see Bridge Over Troubled Water) and his vocal arrangements (see In My Room). World O World is great, I didn't think the transition was too bad, but it is just an honest to god choral composition... even performed by the aeolians instead of just jacob on many tracks. I wish he made more choral compositions. I think it is just tacked on the album, because the end of Box Of Stars 2 (VOCES8) seamlessly transitions to the first track of Djesse Vol 1, "Home Is" (VOCES8). That arrangement is absolutely phenomenal though. I think Jacob got discovered while making his quirky vocal jazz songs, and his ideas don't translate as well into songwriting and instrumentation / genre. I think he is still growing his identity and progressing in capacity. I hope to see him continue to improve
I appreciate your detailed opinion. I couldn't disagree more. I am emotionally moved in a profound way by pretty much every song. The style range within the album and even a given song is what makes it so exciting for me. I haven't delved into the lyrics yet, so I can't comment on that, but beyond that, I am loving the album. You mentioned you get fatigued listening to it...I can understand that. I don't think this album would be good for background music...for me, it's a listening 'event.' In a way, it reminds me of what The Beatles went through - they kept reinventing themsevles and exploring different music frontiers, and some people who liked the previous work were turned off by new styles. I love...even crave when artists explore and invent.
thank you for commenting! i appreciate it a lot. I'm happy this album could move you in such a way, I definitely agree you cant just have this music playing in the background as you definitely need to concentrate on it. I'm hoping he explores more avenues that i can get aboard with!
Just came from his concert a few days ago with bunch of friends and we discussed how each of us liked it. 90% of us (including me) were extatic. Ticket was 50 but I would pay 500 to see it one more time. But there was one guy who said something like this: "Everything was there but soul. Too much needles technique which didn't really serve anything. But he'll get more mature and will simplify his music, you'll see". I get where he's coming from. A similar place as you. But I wholeheartedly disagree. In my opinion, yes he does extrodinary things with technique. But it's always tasteful and takes me to places where no other artists can take me. Takes me to places I didn't even know existed. So again. A matter of taste. Just because everyone says that oysters taste good doesn't mean that I have to like them.
Hey, thanks for commenting! Well I hope you enjoyed the concert! I actually think his music is better suited for the live stage, all his techniques I feel need that visual element. For example his 10 000 voices, at home it really wouldn't hit the same as if you'd actually been there. I guess for me his techniques out ways the quality of the music he's creating.. I actually thought that if he managed to balance live and studio, he could produce something much better.
I don't feel this way at all, I think the album was really fun, addictive, catchy and I'm a layperson with a hobby - not a musician. A lot of the songs got me in my feelings too 🤣
my friend you can have a opinion, but you cant push your opinion to be a fact. a lot of people like me love how he makes music and that he goes from the norm. and you don't need to know a lot of music theory to like the music. and if you actually did some research you would see that he is not "trying to tell you how smart he is'. and lastly jacobs music is a lot of things but it is not empty.
hey! thank you for commenting. I'm not trying to convince anyone that He's a bad artist, I think he is wonderfully talented! I'm just sharing my opinion on how his music feels to me. people keep saying he steers away from the norm but I'm not particularly hearing anything that really pushes any boundary...
Here's the thing, Jacob is to pop music Wlwhat king gizzard isnto whatever they're doing but they don't try to make pop music with their techniques and that's why it works for them
Problem with JC is he just doesn't have a nice voice. The good lord blessed him with Mozart / Bach levels of musical ability, but gave him an ugly, nasal voice. I also have a little trouble dealing with the court-jestor clothing style. His music just doesn't touch me, leaves me cold. And it's not the complexity i can't deal with because i was listening to the Miles Davis 60's quintet when i was 14!
I like collier (not a fan of his music but I love his warmth and enthusiasm as well as his highly respectable musical abilities), but Bach and Mozart are both still leagues above Jacob collier in terms of pure musical genius… especially Bach.
@@IceToast-qw8hl okay that’s fair but I still doubt Jacob could ever grasp the contrapuntal complexity of Bach considering how many miles ahead of everyone else Bach still continues to be in that regard. I highly doubt someone like Bach would have had any difficulties learning and executing the concepts that Jacob has mastered if he were alive today… the dude basically codified tonal harmony and could improvise 5 voice fugues for Christ sake. Jacob is a top notch improviser, tbh my favourite thing about collier is listening to him improvise on the harmoniser, but the stuff Jacob improvises still pales in comparison to the complexity of improvising a 5 part Bach style fugue.
@w12337 Collier used a 5 part contrapoint on his first album when he was 17. He did the Tristan et Isolde chord change in a cover of All Night Long. You may dislike his execution of these techniques but thinking Collier is nothing short of a genius is a ignorant take because the kid has done it all. IIRC he actually did a 7 voiced fugue in Moon River. I also disagree that writing complex fugues are somehow the threshold for musical intellect: Max Richter improvised a 5 voiced fugue and wrote a 3 voiced in his Vivaldi Reimagined but I don't think anyone is trying to argue that the On Nature of Daylight composer is somehow a genius.
Just to add to it: Collier learnt the times table with polyrhythms, meaning he knew a 7/4 rhythm before he knew 7x6😂 don't think even the great ones of old was that deep into it.
He did something fantastic with "In the bleak midwinter" then never did it again. One of his most interesting songs musically, yet... He seriously decided to sing microtonally with a Christmas song?! Meaning it doesn't feel right to listen to the song at any other time
Moon River is loaded with microntonality and tuning and key center shifts so subtle most people can't detect them. th-cam.com/video/UTDHylJZMXU/w-d-xo.html
@@IcySnapsYeah Posting this here because I lost the previous thread about it not being different or pushing innovations enough. So in the last volume of a SERIES you want him to push boundaries into something completely unpreccedented without using complex chords that you dismissed as too much? But also while collaborating widely and internationally? That isn't pushing? Remind me how many previous songs were straight rockers like Wellll or used sitar and ragas or the audience choirs or k-pop and rappers and Latino stars and soulsters like John Legend multiple different languages or a classical choir or straiight gospel or whatever the 100K voices or two 2 Box of Stars cuts amalgams were? That's all too much the same? Maybe 5 of the 16 songs are closer to standard American pop and those are all better melodies and harmonies and singing than most everything I've heard on the radio or Apple top charts lately.
I think Jacob Collier's best work is his old vocal jazz creations!! In My Room is overall a great album. Love Fascinating Rhythm too. I don't think it translates too well to many other genres though.
It is much more difficult and of genius when you can make simplicity extremely beautiful and almost perfect. It is much easier to be overly-complex to try (but fail) to create feeling. I think many people also overlook Collier's lack of melody and tune so to speak. He cant write a good tune, simple as that, yet he can write brilliant harmonies and instrumentation blah blah which doesn't matter if the songwriting is poor. Another point- his productions sound so clean and I think hes a good producer, but the final product is like a cheap product (poor songwriting) in a beautiful premium box (good production). A final point- it offends me that this man is compared to the 'Mozart of our time. Jacob is a greatly talented musician, but Mozart was a pure genius for melody and for excelling and being the best for all genres of his time. Mozart's tunes live on for hundreds of years. I dare anyone to whistle a Collier tune and someone says 'oh I know that one. I guarantee, no one will.
Honestly? I'm happy we have *one* successful artist who don't follow the "less is more" mantra. Like fine, we get it: you smoked and cried to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and now that's your entire taste in music, but it's kinda boring for everyone to chase the Rick Rubin-philosophy. Does it mean everyone should/has to like his music? No. I do think, however, that it's easy to distinguish his critics in how they criticise him: Shallow: tell me you haven't read sheet music without telling me you haven't read sheet music. Bad at singing: okay, diaphragm is your thing. You're completely oblivious to singing pre-20th century. Overly complex productions: dont appreciate prog or neoclassical music. Shallow lyrics: haven't listened to jazz standards. And all of these are fine opinions to hold. I'm never going to say an opinion is wrong. But it says way more about a critics taste in music than his capabilities/talents. I guess im trying to say that the same criticism of his music over and over again is becoming boring because, like the music he's distancing himself from - it's been done to death.
I think it's perfectly fine to love his music, but i also think if lots of people have similar criticism, then there are some obvious issues. I honestly don't care for pink floyd... I would say the likes of The Prodigy mean a lot more to me, and I wouldn't call them minimalist. Reading sheet music doesn't mean anything, Just see John Cage. Just because something is complex doesn't mean it's sounds good either. It's a real skill to make something so complicated yet sound completely boring and dull.
I have the background to easily understand what he's doing musically... Collier is a unique type that experiments with the known possible depths of music theory. He uses it to create and explore and find new things, rather than to simply use music to write a song about human things that anyone can relate to. His mind is beyond normal humans, that why this is all so inaccessible and ...strange. Therefore, you must grow as a listener to MEET him at his level. You have to leave your own comfort zone of listening to some mindless jam while you are high.... He has things to say, he has emotions to share ... but it's not for everyone. He's like the emerging super AI that is 10 fold more capable than any human intellect, but it's all so.... alien and ...off putting.
Half agree. He has plenty of non-musician fans that love his energy and simplicity and heart. Look at the Mahogany Sessions. Simple and direct. Or his improvised live concert covers.
Cut this album in half and it's pretty decent. There really is too much going on. Every song is 3 songs in one. This album needs an editor more than anything. Some of the ideas are great then it forks into something that should have been another track but the next track is a 180 from what we just listened to 😂 lay off the coke Jake.
I don't know why, but he does harmonies, theoretically well, but the performance is sooo...plastic and doesn't do it for me. Thing is, you CAN do complicated music that goes in every direction (Think bohemian rhapsody by queen or A day in The Life by The Beatles) without getting boring. But I feel he doesn't take his music in the most explosive and unique areas that even challenges him. I feel he goes to areas he knows well and never leaves it.
Thanks for commenting! But i completely agree. He's technically great, but when it comes to experimentation, it ones across as really bland. All that complication for nothing...
Collier is obviously a musical genius, that's for sure, but what he produces doesn't suit my personal taste, especially his voice is far too impersonal. Both his music and his voice don't give me goosebumps or the desire for more. I love music (almost all genres), but I miss some down-to-earthness in his music. Every now and then the ear and the heart need a clear emotional direction, this is completely missing. Everything is way too airy, light and floating, which in my opinion makes it unbearable at some point. Less ist more.
this comment I'm about to make may be absolute bullshit, or actually have a ring of truth to it!...but 'I think a lot of people will cling on to things that they don't actually understand, which I suspect is giving oneself a sense that you are progressing, advancing in some way in this 'mad' world, and that you are becoming more sophisticated and cultured as the years move on... To think of the alternative, which is, 'we reach an age where we stagnant, and just stay the same.' I think this may be far more common than we allow ourselves to recognise or believe; i.e. loving the music we started out with as teenagers. How many times over recent months I've heard middle aged guys spurting out on one of these TH-cam review channels, how much they love 'Kiss'. For fucks sake, doesn't that say it all. With that said I may rather side with all of the Collier fanatics. I mean, I'd rather pretend to like Colliers music than actually liking 'Kiss'. That to me is? well, depressing..
I hope you don't think I'm middle-aged !?I think people cling on to past bands for nostalgia, some good memories in a crazy world... There's plenty of older music I don't really care for, and part of why I started doing music reviews is to discover newer artists I've never heard of before!
this whole album is just throwing all kinds of shit at the listener, hoping to impress them with how many instruments there are. The only people who are impressed by this record are those who misuse terms like "arrangement", "mixing", "phrasing" and stuff like that. His music sounds like if Steven Wilson was a dumbass and didn't learn anything from his musical inspirations/influences...
Fortunately, Jacob doesn't care what you think about his music. If you don't like it, fine. He's going to keep making music that interests him and challenges him. He's innovative and he inspires a ton of people. The end.
@@IcySnapsYeah Just tryin' to soften it a little. It's not like me to go hard on someone like this. While it may be true what I said, I felt a little bit bad about saying it. But I really like Jacob's music and it just felt like you were going a bit too hard on him. It is just different kind of music.
Hey, no worries, I was kindof joking.. I shouldn't dish out criticism if I can't handle it right! And I totally get being defensive over an artist you love, but the thing is, i don't hate him as an artists or person, I can see how talented he is! His music just doesn't resonate with me is all.
When is someone going to tell the obvious? Jacob is on the spectrum! Remember in Rain man movie although he can count cards and count how many matches there, When they ask basic prices of things how he have no idea? It is the same thing! He cannot relate to what music make music..
I haven't put out any music in a long while, but I do have a sound cloud with some old projects, nothing special..(I'll put the link below), but I do have an album in the works that I would like to release by the end of the year. m.soundcloud.com/sonnywinter
I also think this sucks. It doesn't even really sound experimental to me. It sounds like a really obnoxious amalgamation of generic sounds from a variety of genres. A lot of extremely cringe inducing ideas throughout.
Well that certainly describes that aimless word salad of yours. Maybe one day you'll be able to say something coherent and intelligent about even ONE of the songs. In the meantime, remind us of what you've created and put out there.
What's amazing and almost completely unique about the criticism of Collier by mediocre white men in their 20s/30s (I speak as one myself) eg Bradtasteinmusic, Anthony Fantano etc, is that basically all the key talking points are wholly detached from reality; that is, they are entirely constructed by the critics, with no evidence at all, based on your own preconceived ideas of what Jacob is about. If you don't like his music, that's obviously fine. If you hate his music, that is also entirely legitimate. But that doesn't make a defense for spouting ignorance.
I think Jacob is a brilliant artist, as is anyone who creates art! I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. i just have an opinion on his music. that opinion might not align with yours, I'm just trying to explain my issues with it. Also you shouldn't sell yourself short... i saw your channel, you got some talent!
I wouldn't call Fantano a mediocre white man. What he's done for music criticism for the internet age is unparalleled there are many critics that are his sons but he is the only one in his lane. I strongly doubt you've listened to the amount of music he has over 20 years. Jacobs is a genius but this record is musical meme. There are some really cool tracks and others are just downright awful.
@@ChetHanks-eh1md He probably has done a lot for music criticism. And I don't like it. I never hear him talk about the actual music itself, it's all about style and aesthetics.
you need to calm down. if you've never tried it, try mushrooms. i hope it helps. if not, just calm down. look inwards instead of spouting outwards. no persons opinions are objective and thats fine. but if they aren't supportive of a non harming person, why tell everyone? jealousy is also fine. but again, why telling us?
He's the most overhyped musician on the planet. I think it's mass hypnosis or people just trying to be in the incrowd. For a so called genius he keeps churning out awful songs.
The guy has so much talent and enthusiasm and (and (and (and))), and so (vanishingly) little taste. Yech... 0.3/10, wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
None of the concepts you mentioned are inherently bad ideas, as I could name albums that have demonstrated all of them, successfully. The real problem is that he has no taste, or actual instrumental or compositional ability, and seems to be completely unaware of this.
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My poor understanding of music makes me love his stuff. It is delightfull at so many levels, even for me. I love his music.
if you love it, you love it! my goal isn't to persuade anyone of anything. I'm sure there's lots of music I love that "critics" would suggest isn't that great.
You don't need to understand music technically to like ANY kind of music, including his. You will hear things that nobody else can do but whether that upsets you or startles you or just sounds fresh - that's a legit reaction. Better to be open than closed in many things.
I hope you try some classical and real jazz as well. Jacob has roots in both.
I understand a LOT of what is going that is unique and that enhances it for me but is that required? I feel lucky about that but nope.
@@bryanleggo3489 I agree with this. Having a musical background is absolutely not required to love or hate any particular music. What works for you, won't work for everyone. If you do have a background in music, and you enjoy his style, it makes his songs that much more interesting
@@BluePhantomCavalier Of course. Also true of Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Chris Thile, Yuja Wang and hundreds of others. But JC's harmonies are especially fresh regardless of the cool theory behind some of it.
It’s interesting to hear different opinions on music. As someone who has been a mixing engineer for 6 years and been a regular session musician around the country, I thought his album was brilliantly produced, and most of the songs were really well written (especially from a harmonic perspective). Also thought bridge over troubled water was one of the best arrangements of any song I’ve ever listened to, and perfectly produced. Vocals were just so clear.
I'm jealous of your job! There are some great mixes in there! but there are definitely parts of the album that feel quite muddy
@@IcySnapsYeah what??
For someone who skates the edge, the lyrics on some of these tracks are more cliched and flat out corny than Disney channel stuff.
As a fan i do agree, Wherever I go and Witness me dont have a lot of lyrical substance, but the argument i really dont understand is how is considered soulless just because it's often jarring and dissonant
@@zacharygoody I'll tell you why people think he's soulless; there is no danger with Collier. Everything is boring, because everything feels safe.
Whenever Jacob wears other genres like a skin-suit, it's just creepy and uncanny, he's replicating the noise in a purely mechanical fashion with none of the motivating ethos.
Take the metalcore "breakdown" at the end of the first track; it sounds like metal, it has metal instruments, it's written like metal, and yet it sounds absolutely horrible, because Jacob doesn't understand metal, he can merely replicate it on a superficial level.
@@steezydan8543 eloquently put like genuinely the way you explained it made everything click for me
@@steezydan8543this makes no sense. people complain about jacob cuz he’s “too much” and there’s “too much going on” and he’s “headache inducing” and then in the next breathe, he’s “boring like disney” and “plays it safe”??? PICK ONE. cuz it can’t be both
@@SparklesNJazz It absolutely can be.
You can play a lot of notes really fast but still illicit zero emotional response from the audience, which is what I'm really saying.
High concept songs with low emotional value. I can't think of a more accurate description of Jacob's music than that.
Yeah he's real talented, but could he make "All Star" by Smash Mouth? I doubt it
Only those blesses by the Devine have that kind of knowledge ..
Only Smash Mouth can make All Star. Stevie Wonder couldn't make All Star if he tried. RIP Steve Harwell.
Want to start by saying I like hearing all perspectives about peoples opinions on music.
I know for me, I feel like his music scratches a part of my brain that I didn’t even know I could access until listening to his production style. I love that his music is experimental because it inspires me, and makes me think about the listening experience in a new way vs. Hearing all of the generic 145 songs on the radio.
In regards to music that does have melodic lines, I feel like a lot of the songs we are used to being released today all use the same production techniques, and most are basic, and sound the same as everything else. And frankly it’s rather boring to me
I’m thankful that he does mix different genres within one album, or one song, and that he includes his stacked harmonies and genius chord layerings. Because honestly, who else would have the ability to do the same ?? 👀😬🤗
Thank you for the comment! he has incredible potential and honestly I think he has a brilliant mind.
But its like he doesn't flesh out any of these brilliant ideas.. you talk about all these generic radio songs, I feel like he does the same, except he puts them all into one track, but instead of incorporating elements from each one he just plays them one after another.
@@IcySnapsYeah Doesn't flesh out! LOL! Vague and musically illiterate much?
Boring? LOL! Many different international genres and collaborators yet all the same and boring. Same production techniques? What does that even mean? Explain to use what other production techniques could have been used. When you already have a cappella, full orchestral, small groups like trios and quartets, rock, funk, neosoul and Indian ragas. Explain what new techniques you'd expect.
@bryanleggo3489 When a song in a typical genre stands out its because they push that genre, make it interesting. When I listen to all the influences and genre's a Jacob uses it ends up sounding generic. Mixing genre's doesn't automatically make something interesting.
@@IcySnapsYeah Any mix like that is far more interesting than a lazy reaction/reaction half-review which isn't even about the specifics of the music. Headache inducing? Talk about generic. That's attitude - not thoughtful analysis. It was also far more interesting when The Beatles, The Turtles or even Ricky Nelson did it but none of those come close to matching the brilliance of what happens on A Rock Somewhere to name on cross-genre example. See? That was a small snippet of me addressing something specific an articulate way. Maybe you're just into being inarticulate or creating music or collaborating with other great musicians for that matter. What have you offered the world? This? Please. Checkout Adam Neely, Charles Cornell , David Bennet or David Bruce to see actual value and skill.
what if......Jacob Collier was fake, created by a clever marketing agency, played by the unknown brother of Timothée Chalamet. Trained by Sting, Quincy Jones and Jim Carrey to become the holy grail of music/studio influencers? His first real job for Native Instruments was very successful, I would say...
How deep does the rabbit hole go??
Only Alice can answer that ;-)
@@IcySnapsYeah
Fun fact: I placed this under a JC Video...and he (Jacob Collier private) found it funny.
What if you said something intelligent about the music itself instead? We can all dream, I suppose.
Collier. Jacob Collier. Agent 00(b7).
Imagine being such an empty bean can that this kind of performative, vapid sound tapestry actually moves you or "expands" your "horizons".
Are you calling songs like World o World, or his arrangement of Bridge Over Troubled Waters, vapid?
@@towardstheflame Totally. It's the brazilian butt lift of music.
That's really fuckin rude
Idk why im commenting but it surprises me that no one brings up this as i find it very apparent once you understand the kind of person jacob is: Jacob is making music for the sake of music. Plain and simple. He makes what he wants. He is a prodigy, a multitalented creation machine. What does he make? Music he likes. Now, this obviously results in music that might be lacking in emotional depth and thorough exploration of ideas and themes, but only because he is purely focused on making music he likes and explores sonic landscapes through experimentation and collaboration. In some sense, i find his approach more pure.
Does this mean I like it?
Hell nah.
But do i judge him for doing what he does the way he does it?
A little but still no.
He just doesnt make anything that i find much interest in aside from musical virtuosity and complexity (which is not enough)
I prefer music that has a story to tell, with clearly defined themes and emotional depths.
I think some people are on the same boat as me but havent been able to put words to it, oorrr... Im just some solipsistic narcissist as i tend to be.
For sure hes making music for himself and I think every musician should! As long as your having fun....but also criticism is the only way to grow as an artist.
@@IcySnapsYeah true
I don't know what emotional depths means. His non-musical fans sure see plenty of that in his own music (check out the Mahogany sessions) or when he does covers. As for ideas and themes....like what among current artists and current music, That's been out of favor for a while.
@@ashleysherlock5705 It's mostly just the losers here making noise. JC does musically brilliant stuff and simple, raw emotive stuff a well that deeply moves many people, even if not these haters. . Watch the Mahogany sessions. Watch any concert like Lisbon or go to one.
@@ashleysherlock5705 His music doesn't have it...this 20 second video exactly explains what is going on with his music
th-cam.com/video/DOlb9k4tz5g/w-d-xo.html
I know music and love his stuff, I love that he’s pushing so much and doing the absolute most
I can see how passionate he is. It's quite admirable! It's more down to personal taste..
The main thing I feel differently about is the harmonies, I don't find they're intrusive for me, on the contrary I find them to be part of his USP and a big draw. About 10 years ago he was doing extremely complex covers of songs like Fascinating Rhythm and the harmonies were completely mind bending, it's complex music
Hey! thanks for the comment.
I don't deny it's complex, one of the tracks I quite liked was World o World, but when you have these harmonies with everything else on top it just gets a bit much..
More so than you may know when you get into the microtonality. Are you a musuician? See link. below.
The two chord sequences with Quincy and Steve Vai in All Night Long transitions are insanely innovative . He's simplifying that more in this album, probably to accommodate most of those collaborators but the one on A Rock Somewhere can practically match him on their own.
th-cam.com/video/UTDHylJZMXU/w-d-xo.html
@@IcySnapsYeah You do need the ability to digest the harmonies. It's like classical music, it's not for everyone. Some people are happy with 2 chords and a straight beat
Listened to a couple of tracks and quickly realised this wasn't for me. Just because you know what notes go together, or what notes can follow others, doesn't mean you can write coherent music. I like to be surprised in music, but it takes a different skill to achieve that without the need for genre hopping.
A couple? FFS. Could you be much more close minded?
And it's not about need. It's about collaboration internationally. He's always been multi-genre.
@@bryanleggo3489 I've followed Jacob for years. I guess I was checking to see if there had been a change in his approach. There wasn't. I'm allowed not to like him and my reasons are valid. You don't have to agree with them.
@@thewaxbiscuit And I'm allowed to say that two tracks is lazy closed-minded bullshit and literally willful ignorance. The tracks aren't all identical or terribly similar. That's the whole point of the album. Collabs with different and international artists new to him., whether ragas or k-pop.
What would you expect him to do that's radically different? Play the Brandenburg Concertos? Maybe some big band? This is the 4th volume of a SERIES, although each volume has very noticeable differences.
@@bryanleggo3489 my opinion is about the music. Your opinion is about me, on that I take umbrage. Personally, I prefer a more cohesive music experience. You don't have to defend Jacob. I can not like his music, and that doesn't make me think you're an idiot.
@@thewaxbiscuit Umbrage! LOL! Your "opinion" is based on 2 songs you haven't even specified and therefore is pretty worthless. It's at the level of "Yeah, I like Beethoven because of that symphony he wrote." It's absurd to think multiple international collaborations and genres could ever be cohesive in style if you mean very similar. It's absurd to think Box of Stars and Sunshine should or could be similar.
I never found before a review so full of jealousy and lack of knowledge and understanding of music, art and artistic freedom.
If more people just express themselves instead of following industry patterns or already known patterns, it would all be more fun and reviews like this wouldnt even exist, because this guy would be making his own stuff and being happy.
I truly wish more colors to this guy.
I appreciate him as an artist! whether or not it translates into something great depends on person to person.
Awful take. Just because he doesn't like Collier doesn't mean he's jealous or has a lack of knowledge.
The only thing you can really fault Jacob on is his lyrics, which is okay because at least he writes them himself, If you have bad lyrics written for you then that's on you
Jacob is a musician beyond any of our talents, his arrangements and texture building is literally one of the best in the industry and just focussing on the bad lyric writing just detracts from what you're there to actually listen to with Jacob...his instrumentalism and harmony building.
Also, if you think this sort of genre skipping and all over the place songwriting is "Jarring" then I'd probably advise you don't listen to most of the late 70s and 80s prog scene aha, this has been done before and is nothing new but is super fun and interesting.
Ultimately, his music is fun, varied and interesting.
thank you for the comment! I'm glad you enjoy his music! So yeah I definitely agree hes a great artist, you can see how much skill he has!
I'm not opposed to genre switching or complicated sounds. i just don't like the way its been done here, especially with the music being so generic in the first place.
If only he'd listen to you he could attain a similar level of obscurity as you have.
Haha! Damn I didn't expect to get roasted this morning.. love it! Well, at least you know of me now :p
It’s one of the best albums I’ve ever heard. You’re welcome for the undeserved engagement.
If it means anything, I really am grateful! So thank you
I believe he thrives off of the "What if...?" part of musical arrangements. I would assume this would be why there seems to be a disconnect. As for my opinion on his music: I wouldn't go about adding all of his stuff to my playlist, but I can understand and appreciate his creative and curious nature; it's actually quite refreshing during times where a lot of "new" music actually sounds like something that already exists or the music is just incredibly basic.
Also, Bridge Over Trouble Water is absolutely amazing and will be added to my playlist.
You can definitely see how excited he gets from creating and exploring , it's amazing to have that kind of passion, I just feel he didn't explore enough And its telling that a cover is one of the more successful songs from the album
Didn't really wanna comment but whatever... I get your point, and I also think that he's on a beautiful journey, and I can't wait to see where it's going. The funny part is that maybe even this video will affect the journey. Either way, reality is so cool🐈
well thank you for commenting anyway! i honestly think the older he gets the more refined he will become and I do think he will make something great!
"Why?", is a very good question when listening to JCs music.
It's also an easy answer.
"Why?" Because Jacob Collier wants to. Simple as that. He just does his thing because he likes to do it.
AGREED. Just because one knows every chord there is to know, doesn't mean one needs to put every chord in every song.
That's the way he hears music. I don't think it lacks any soul. I think it has tons of soul. But it isn't for everyone. And that's ok.
@@chillwalker So nobody should make covers?
LOL! He doesn't and he doesn't even try. What a completely sub-literate idiotic remark! Do you actually think ANYTHING in good music is about "knowing every chord"! LOL! Collier is uniquely great at making related chords work together in unique ways but that's not remotely what the's about as a musician.
I did not say that and you dont get the point...@@laurencelong
@@chillwalker You DID say that and now you're somehow confused about that. Or is bigger somehow automatically not better? Or does it have to be stripped down or nearly identical to be ok? You don't actually seem to have a point.
Bad manners? LOL! Are you new to music and jazz and pop standards and artists regularly deriving from each other? What about Luke Combs. Tracy Chapman didn't seem to mind. I don't hear Lionel Richie complaining either. More royalties for him, too.
Maybe you don't screw around with Bach or Mozart too much but that's about where it ends. All popular music is fair game. If anything is boring it is a cover band trying to mimic a great one but if people are willing to go see that, why should anyone be upset?
My problem with him is that, I love his view on music, his knowledge and his passion, but I really wished he was doing some other genre than pop. Which I can't stand. He has so much talent, he could be great at something more niche. He doesn't have that ''Bjork-like'' sophistication or artistry in his music. That's something beyond technicality. Maybe a taste thing.
I wish he did more explicit jazz but nobody s doing "pop" like this. Nobody. To call it that isn't right, including several songs on this album.
My problems with the album are the exact same as I had with the last four -
1. He really hasn't got a great voice. His lows are watery (almost like he's singing through a mouthful of spit), his highs are shrill and thin, and his chest voice is usually covered under the layer of the seemingly-forced vocal tone he uses to sound a little more bass heavy. He may be a prodigy at a ton of musical instruments but his voice isn't one of them.
2. He often follows the mantra of "more is more" but he rarely stops to consider if "more is actually too much" when in most cases it *is*. Music is all about tension, release, and space - his music frequently lacks space because it's constantly full of these shifting genres and harmonies.
3 (but kinda related to 2). His arrangements are incredibly indicative of his music being self-produced and solo-arranged, in that they're full of hundreds of really cool ideas that have been committed to tape without really considering if they make the songs better or not. I've worked with hundreds of self-produced musicians and singers in the past and frankly most of them could be improved a million times over by having an objective ear supporting production and arrangement. Then again, if your first self-recordings are fawned over by Quincy Jones you're probably likely to believe your own hype for decades following that fact.
Nah JC is not for me. I appreciate the work and ability he puts in, I just don't think it equates to strong enough songs for the attention they demand.
I think watching him work is probably what makes people fawn over him. I'm sure it's impressive! But yeah, it's the end result that ends up being all over the place..
I find this hilarious given the number of vocal coaches and music producers I've seen fawning over him. Watch the Mahogany sessions or concert improvisations if you want to see space. Or the one with Saje that won the 6th Grammy. They specifically commented on the space he gave them. For the big group stuff not so much space except maybe a little with Snarky Puppy.
@bryanleggo3489 but that's exactly the critique here. With other musicians he is a great collaborator. Alone he does too much. If anything, maybe he needs a band to reign his ideas in. Just a thought. I don't like his music enough tk give him a chance.
@@MistaZULE That's not the argument here at all if you man from the whiny kid of this channel. But it's a dumb one either way since this album is entirely ABOUT collaborations. There's not a single song here that's all him like it was with the "In My Room" album. The needs to be reined in is pretty absurd, too. He has a band. It's mostly the same people the last few years when touring.
@@bryanleggo3489 ok? So he's just not a very good collaborator? I don't know, I don't like the guy so I don't listen to him. The more I try to get into him the more I'm turned off because he's got such a rabid fanbase that goes everywhere and watches every video about him.
He's got his grammies, he's got his accolades. Can you let people dislike him? We don't all have to fawn over him.
huge fan of his! can’t wait for more 10/10
Less is ALWAYS more.
@@WyattAkins it’s not a shame for me. Have a Wonderful Day!!!!
No it isn't. Mahler isn't either.
That's my least favorite platitude of all time.
Hi man! Great video! It is great to see different opinions about Jacob's music. I have seen videos where people just hate on him and do not contribute to say anything else.
Hey! Thank you for the comment, I really do appreciate it! So yeah, I try to focus solely on the music when making a review, and the thing is, I don't hate him as a person he actually seems quite nice!
People keep confusing his being skilled at playing a few instruments and his theoretical knowledge as "talent" (they are not the same) and having those skill sets in your cap while helpful doesn't mean that you have "talent" or more importantly creativity, ...those things are indeed mutually exclusive. Jacob Colier is the prime example of this.
I think I agree with you on this!
I disagree - i'd argue he's too talented that might make his music unappealing and incoherent for many. Most musicians are constrained by their limits so they concentrate more on what they can do to make their songs work.
He is OBJECTIVELY talented, to say otherwise is ludicrous. You mean to tell me that just anyone can pick up multiple instruments and play with such skill as him? Not to mention how well he grasps theoretical concepts and innovates them
If it's good enough for Herbie Hancock, then it's good enough for me.
I'm all for it!
I can't really disagree with you. I absolutely adore Jacob but his records are sometimes very hard to show to people because they can come across as a haphazard assortment of flexes.
His concerts however are absolutely brilliant and i will listen to anything he makes at least once.
For me Djesse 4 is like black coffee. You try it once, and it sucks, you try it again and you are warming up to it, you listen some more and you're hooked. After a few listens your ear starts to adjust to the genre mashing that we aren't used to.
I will definitely come back to it again to see if my thoughts have changed, but at the moment, for me, It doesn't even seem complicated..it's just the most basic forms of each genre pasted next to each other
@@IcySnapsYeah I'm not sure if I can see that but I also haven't listened to Djesse 4 since I went to his show in early June. The other thing though is I feel like a lot of people love jacob collier not for the albums themselves but for his composition and incredible wealth of knowledge. Especially acoustic arrangements that he has such as his performance at the JFK center with the NSO and dodie and laufey of wild mountain thyme. Additionally, art is totally subjective, and I will die on the hill of 'dont yuck anothers yum' with art.
Additionally, i really respect that despite the video and title being kinda rude and clickbaity that you're able to be respectful in the comments.
Valid critiques about his vocals, but I think it should be noted that he's almost entirely self-taught at everything he does. As someone who had minimal exposure to music growing up but an aspiration to do that, it's easier to follow his journey and motivate my own. This album was certainly an attempt to meld many different cultures and sounds (interestingly done), but it does make for a tough first listen. Some of these have become new favorites for me- it's fascinating that on a first runthrough these were tough to absorb, but after a few more you better understand what he was going for.
He's self-taught, but it's easier when you have grown up around musicians. You're very similar to me, I wasn't brought up around music really and have had to find the motivation to learn, so I understand why people admire him. Who knows maybe he will grow on me !
for christ sakes he IS NOT SELF TAUGHT his parents are top violinists and music teachers. They both have their own wiki. Your whole idea of him is a myth. If Jacob grew up with parents who were brick layers he wouldn't exist as a popular musician.
You for sure have the right to not like whatever music you want, but it is kind of weird the way your criticism contradicts itself. Like first you say that his music is all over the place enough to give you ear fatigue, but then you find it dull somehow? How does that make sense? Or you don't like that he's just trying so many crazy ideas or difficult things but then you act like it's not even impressive or difficult. Personally, in a world of bland pop music this has become one of my favorite albums, partially because it is all over the place and I have ADHD and like lots of different styles and genres. Also I love getting to hear little bits and samples of music from around the world, it feels very exciting to me. If you don't like it that's perfectly fine, but if you're going to make a video taking a dump on someone way more successful than you, you could at least be consistent with your criticism
Just because a lot is going on doesn't mean it's not dull and boring. I'm not sure how you can say he stands out in a world of bland pop, When this album exudes genricism.
Whenever he veers into different genres, it's the most basic run of the mill sound. He might add some of his complex harmonies or some random chrod progressions. But honeslty it adds nothing.
@@IcySnapsYeah There's not that much pop in it though, or when there is it's Latin pop, or French pop or some other country. My favorite part about the album is his incorporation of music and artists from around the world. It's ok if you don't like it but you could at least have an appreciation for it
His musical genius is at such a high level that some people such as you will now recognize it as such. Nevertheless, I would suggest for all who critique his music to try to do even 1/100 of what he does and then maybe dare to judge him.. It's one thing to say you don't like his music and another to try to make him less that the genius he is. Whoever tries to do that, fails miserably in the eyes and ears of the talented musicians all over the world who can recognize a genius when they see one. Jacob is a one in a billion music wonder.
I have praised his talents multiple times, it's too precise.. effectively making his music sound by the book and quite boring
I hear from every one that he's talented and many many people praise and even as a fan going to two concerts it's a lot to hear.
Instead of his talent people should consider his insane work and passion for the grind, it's stressful and time consuming and he does all the nitty gritty himself, which isn't too common in the top pop songs currently
You make some really legitimate points. He is so creative he can’t get back into himself, his heart. I think he needs to get his heart broken…. Back from a puddle on the floor he might re-integrate in an astonishing collection of songs. I believe in him and his process.
i think that's it! It doesn't really feel like he has had any life changing experiences? I hope whoever breaks his heart is ready for the aftermath!!
Yet his openess and heart is likely why his less musically educated fans like him more. The suffering artist cliche, fun as it is, is still a mythical notion. A lot of great songs were written by people who were so young that they hadn't seen much of life or hardship at all. Think of all the 60's and 70's troubadors and even The Beatles. Mere kids. Think of Killing Me Softly.
@@bryanleggo3489 John Lennon had already had quite a hard life.
You guys do realize his dad left his mom when Jacob was 10, right?
The thing about Jacob it's that he's experiencing music. So, for me, as long as he's being natural and really enjoying the process, then it's all right. It's ok to artist have good and not so good albums. I don't think the volume 4 it's bad. For me, the importance, it's that he's being honest with himself in the process of making music. We should not ask him to be a genious all the time, I guess. I liked the album though.
I agree, as long as he's enjoying it that's all that matters! But from a critical aspect it has quite a few flaws..
Little blue and bridge over troubled water i really enjoyed, the lyrics are super cliche but i dont listen to music for the lyrics
Thanks for the comment! Yeah, I don't often listen to music with lyrics either, but if you are going to have lyrics, why not try to make them interesting?
@@IcySnapsYeah he put all his skill points into augmented 12#add9 37 freudian mode 😂
Absolutely and completely disagree. As an artist myself, I love that he doesn’t try to conform to basic songs for the simple-minded. He’s complex and I adore it. Saw him in concert last night and made me appreciate him even more.
“He’s lacking that talent and emotional depth” sums it all up. It is convoluted nonsense.
It is difficult to destroy an icon like “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” but he succeeded in doing that.
Wow. Pathetic. That's the one deservedly getting the most attention. A Grammy wouldn't surprise me. So I guess the rest of what you say about the others songs is even more useless, not that you said much at all. Quite typical, really.
@@bryanleggo3489What are you getting out of dickriding JC in every single comment?
this is nuts. it's the best Bridge Over Troubled Water recording I've ever heard
@@luphoria Tons of reactions gushing over that one in particular and for good reason.
Sorry but it seems you might be jealous hahaha. He isn't showing off, he is experimenting and having fun, and that's why it can be a little messy. I feel that this album actually has a lot of connexion and emotional depth, being The album of making music with others, having really warm, comforting (and rich) calmer songs, and being reflexive on being the final part of Djesse (box of stars part 2 is a really powerfull track when you know the other albums and try to understand the narrative). I guess you have to know what the album is to really like it. Also I'm in awe of the humor and storytelling that it includes, to me Jacob Collier's approach to making music in a non-conventional way is quite groundbreaking and it doesn’t look like you were too sensitive to it (duh there is metal in 100 000 voices because it's part of a joke). The jump in genres and constant changes and modulations in the songs are a huge part of what jacob collier is, you either love it or you find it tiring. Maybe that's why you didn't like the contrast between the songs, but I loved the diversity. To me every song belonged. I didn't quite like WELLLL in the first place, so i get you, but then i did, and maybe will you 🤷♂️.
To me the Djesse cycle is a fun exploration trip through different types of music, and it should be appretiated as so. The trip ends with Box of Stars, with the death and going to paradise of djesse (J.C lol), and with resurection and renewal with World O World. Jacob has accomplished his trip and can start a new music experience in his next albums. So to me criticism regarding the experimental, explorating, constanly changing, and not trying to be good aspect of this album isn't really relevant.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't jealous of his knowledge! Who know maybe be album will grow on me??
yappin
Nice comment. I don't think it is jealousy per se but often times there is subdued resentment when a person starts off with derogatory comments about his genius, music theory or in this knowing about augmented chords. I was at the live concert premiere of World O World at the Kennedy Center. I'd call it a show stopper except that it was one of several along with the audience choir which I didn't even know was a thing. It was amazing. One Vol 4 Bridge and On a Rock Somewhere are my two initial favorites and the Boxes of Start are just ok. The only song I didn't like was Mi Corazon because it sounded intentionally commercial and uninspired. I guess the guy is a big name and its' marketing.
What's the joke in the metal?
Satirical jump from vocal resolution to hard deep metal, plays on some of his earlier orchestral stuff. It just shifts straight into hardcore metal but for like 12 seconds@@bryanleggo3489
Listen to some actually experimental music and this isn't it. Sure he's playing around and having fun with old and established genres and sounds. This album is like musical finger painting.
Agreed. Also, the album feels overly compressed, which makes the points you bring up even more evident. So much stuff going on with no dinamycs and separation just makes for a bad experience, some songs literally hurt my ears XD. The low end sounds muddy, and then anything above 2K sounds piercing, there's this weird digital distortion going on there. Also there's no single memorable melodic line on the album, except for maybe Never Gonna be Alone. I don't want to sound like a hater but that's been his career basically, no memorable melodies. He desperately needs a good pro producer to guide him.
Yes, exactly! It feels like such a waste of talent! Really, he needs someone to reign him in and concentrate on what he does best..
Meghan Trainor has won grammys.. it's a popularity contest that's all
These are the kinds of silly bad production type comments from amateurs that amuse me me so much. Well,I hope an amateur. The remark about melodic lines is even worse if not delusional. You sound like a hater and an ill-informed one..
I really like him but I can’t listen to the albums. I don’t enjoy how overwhelming everything is.
This is basically how I feel too!
I mean I have a feeling this is going to be similar to my feelings on Jacob.
It's all very nice but I cant wait for him to sit down and write some actual music. Also I love jazz. So its nothing to do with harmonic complexity.
It's interesting because from what I can tell his mind really loves to go here, there and everywhere. so it would be good to see what he could make if he really focused one one core idea!
@@IcySnapsYeah I think he needs to work with a musician that can take his frenetic creative energy and refine it down. As you said dumping a heap of the tracks in logic would have no doubt alone made it more interesting and listenable.
There is just no restraint, no nuance. Its like you know when parents have showbiz children and they scream sing everything because they are told to project.
I think he has an excellent career as a teacher..
@@prime-mate Thats painful. He could be brilliant.
i'm kind of surprised none of his collaborations told him to rein it in a bit. I think a good technique would be to listen to the track, remove some elements and see how much of a difference or even noticeable it is!
I loved Jesse V1. The other ones I can't really listen. including V4.
Can't stand his voice.. So much musical capability, yet his music is terrible .. The universe is funny as hell 😂😂
substance free aping.
I agree that knowing music theory in and of itself won’t make you appreciate his music more, but ear-training will - being able to perceive some of the stuff he does. Call me stuck-up if you want :)
PS I think a lot of the criticisms here are valid…
Thank you for the comment!
I don't think you're stuck up at all! :)
I think for me, even if my ears aren't fully trained, I can still hear if something sounds good or not. And I know it doesn't matter if the piece of art sounds bad. For example, John Cage is considered a great sound artist. But his work isn't nessisary pleasing to the ear. But the difference for me is John cage pushes those boundaries in unique ways.
Jacob is more of a chemist than an artist. He has bionic hearing and is one of the best arranger/orchestrators I've ever heard. One particular section of his miraculous acappella rendition of "Moon River" opened up the heavens and permanently changed the way I hear harmony.
But that genius musician cannot song write his way out of a paper bag.
It's all cut and paste appropriated drivel drooling down to nowhere. And for all his compositional sophistication, it all sounds predictable now. I can hear his formula and I don't want to hear it. I'm not supposed to hear it.
I can't wait to see what he does after he finally hits the wall artistically and can no longer stand the sound of his own musical thoughts. Debussy had something like that happened to him and after smashing his fists on the piano in frustration he was musically reborn and started composing cosmic dreams like Clair de Lune at the age of 30. I'm hoping Jacob soon transcends the mediocrity of his own genius.
I am a big fan of Jacob Collier and yet I agree with almost every single point you made. I think Box of Stars 2 was good and you kinda skipped over the rnb type stuff which is some of my favorite songs in it! I agree 100% that a lot of his music lacks soul.
My favorite Jacob Collier album is still his first - In My Room. Djesse 4 had me excited, but when Mi Corazon released early, my hope died that it would be a sonically cohesive album. I actually really like WELLLL, so I thought it was interesting that you said it was the worst. IMO, the worst on the album is either 100,000 Voices or She Put Sunshine.
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Hey, thank you so much! I appreciate it a lot!
It's clear how talented he is and that's why it's so confusing how he can make something so robotic..
As for the song WELLL, for me, it kind of highlights the issue's of the album, too many layers, over saturated, robotic etc
@@IcySnapsYeah My favorite things that he creates are either songs featuring other vocalist (see Bridge Over Troubled Water) and his vocal arrangements (see In My Room). World O World is great, I didn't think the transition was too bad, but it is just an honest to god choral composition... even performed by the aeolians instead of just jacob on many tracks.
I wish he made more choral compositions. I think it is just tacked on the album, because the end of Box Of Stars 2 (VOCES8) seamlessly transitions to the first track of Djesse Vol 1, "Home Is" (VOCES8). That arrangement is absolutely phenomenal though.
I think Jacob got discovered while making his quirky vocal jazz songs, and his ideas don't translate as well into songwriting and instrumentation / genre. I think he is still growing his identity and progressing in capacity. I hope to see him continue to improve
I really hope to see him improve too, it's clear he has something special. I just don't think he's honed his potential yet!
I appreciate your detailed opinion. I couldn't disagree more. I am emotionally moved in a profound way by pretty much every song. The style range within the album and even a given song is what makes it so exciting for me. I haven't delved into the lyrics yet, so I can't comment on that, but beyond that, I am loving the album. You mentioned you get fatigued listening to it...I can understand that. I don't think this album would be good for background music...for me, it's a listening 'event.' In a way, it reminds me of what The Beatles went through - they kept reinventing themsevles and exploring different music frontiers, and some people who liked the previous work were turned off by new styles. I love...even crave when artists explore and invent.
thank you for commenting! i appreciate it a lot. I'm happy this album could move you in such a way, I definitely agree you cant just have this music playing in the background as you definitely need to concentrate on it. I'm hoping he explores more avenues that i can get aboard with!
Damn this was savage, absolutely read to shit. 😅
I wasn't trying to be, I swear !!
What the F V C K are all you Normies styled like Eras we grew up in ?
What Era do you think I'm from?
Just came from his concert a few days ago with bunch of friends and we discussed how each of us liked it. 90% of us (including me) were extatic. Ticket was 50 but I would pay 500 to see it one more time. But there was one guy who said something like this: "Everything was there but soul. Too much needles technique which didn't really serve anything. But he'll get more mature and will simplify his music, you'll see".
I get where he's coming from. A similar place as you. But I wholeheartedly disagree. In my opinion, yes he does extrodinary things with technique. But it's always tasteful and takes me to places where no other artists can take me. Takes me to places I didn't even know existed.
So again. A matter of taste. Just because everyone says that oysters taste good doesn't mean that I have to like them.
Hey, thanks for commenting! Well I hope you enjoyed the concert! I actually think his music is better suited for the live stage, all his techniques I feel need that visual element. For example his 10 000 voices, at home it really wouldn't hit the same as if you'd actually been there.
I guess for me his techniques out ways the quality of the music he's creating.. I actually thought that if he managed to balance live and studio, he could produce something much better.
I don't feel this way at all, I think the album was really fun, addictive, catchy and I'm a layperson with a hobby - not a musician. A lot of the songs got me in my feelings too 🤣
Hey! I'm glad you were able to feel this way when listening to his music! I'm sure there is lots of music I like that others probably don't..
my friend you can have a opinion, but you cant push your opinion to be a fact. a lot of people like me love how he makes music and that he goes from the norm. and you don't need to know a lot of music theory to like the music. and if you actually did some research you would see that he is not "trying to tell you how smart he is'.
and lastly jacobs music is a lot of things but it is not empty.
hey! thank you for commenting. I'm not trying to convince anyone that He's a bad artist, I think he is wonderfully talented! I'm just sharing my opinion on how his music feels to me. people keep saying he steers away from the norm but I'm not particularly hearing anything that really pushes any boundary...
@@IcySnapsYeah (:
@@IcySnapsYeah capitalizing He is crazy
@@IcySnapsYeah He is pushing the boundaries of the level of complexity of harmony in popular music, for example.
Here's the thing, Jacob is to pop music Wlwhat king gizzard isnto whatever they're doing but they don't try to make pop music with their techniques and that's why it works for them
That's actually a really good point. I think he just tries too hard to master every genre as quickly as he can
Problem with JC is he just doesn't have a nice voice. The good lord blessed him with Mozart / Bach levels of musical ability, but gave him an ugly, nasal voice. I also have a little trouble dealing with the court-jestor clothing style. His music just doesn't touch me, leaves me cold. And it's not the complexity i can't deal with because i was listening to the Miles Davis 60's quintet when i was 14!
I like collier (not a fan of his music but I love his warmth and enthusiasm as well as his highly respectable musical abilities), but Bach and Mozart are both still leagues above Jacob collier in terms of pure musical genius… especially Bach.
@@w12337 I didn’t say “genius”, I said “ability”!
@@IceToast-qw8hl okay that’s fair but I still doubt Jacob could ever grasp the contrapuntal complexity of Bach considering how many miles ahead of everyone else Bach still continues to be in that regard. I highly doubt someone like Bach would have had any difficulties learning and executing the concepts that Jacob has mastered if he were alive today… the dude basically codified tonal harmony and could improvise 5 voice fugues for Christ sake. Jacob is a top notch improviser, tbh my favourite thing about collier is listening to him improvise on the harmoniser, but the stuff Jacob improvises still pales in comparison to the complexity of improvising a 5 part Bach style fugue.
@w12337 Collier used a 5 part contrapoint on his first album when he was 17. He did the Tristan et Isolde chord change in a cover of All Night Long. You may dislike his execution of these techniques but thinking Collier is nothing short of a genius is a ignorant take because the kid has done it all.
IIRC he actually did a 7 voiced fugue in Moon River.
I also disagree that writing complex fugues are somehow the threshold for musical intellect: Max Richter improvised a 5 voiced fugue and wrote a 3 voiced in his Vivaldi Reimagined but I don't think anyone is trying to argue that the On Nature of Daylight composer is somehow a genius.
Just to add to it: Collier learnt the times table with polyrhythms, meaning he knew a 7/4 rhythm before he knew 7x6😂 don't think even the great ones of old was that deep into it.
finally someone who says it
It's the curse of the prodigy.
OOF
He did something fantastic with "In the bleak midwinter" then never did it again. One of his most interesting songs musically, yet... He seriously decided to sing microtonally with a Christmas song?! Meaning it doesn't feel right to listen to the song at any other time
Now that you mention it.. I think his voice and style would be perfect for a Xmas Album!
Moon River is loaded with microntonality and tuning and key center shifts so subtle most people can't detect them.
th-cam.com/video/UTDHylJZMXU/w-d-xo.html
@@IcySnapsYeah Posting this here because I lost the previous thread about it not being different or pushing innovations enough.
So in the last volume of a SERIES you want him to push boundaries into something completely unpreccedented without using complex chords that you dismissed as too much? But also while collaborating widely and internationally? That isn't pushing? Remind me how many previous songs were straight rockers like Wellll or used sitar and ragas or the audience choirs or k-pop and rappers and Latino stars and soulsters like John Legend multiple different languages or a classical choir or straiight gospel or whatever the 100K voices or two 2 Box of Stars cuts amalgams were? That's all too much the same?
Maybe 5 of the 16 songs are closer to standard American pop and those are all better melodies and harmonies and singing than most everything I've heard on the radio or Apple top charts lately.
I think Jacob Collier's best work is his old vocal jazz creations!! In My Room is overall a great album. Love Fascinating Rhythm too. I don't think it translates too well to many other genres though.
It is much more difficult and of genius when you can make simplicity extremely beautiful and almost perfect. It is much easier to be overly-complex to try (but fail) to create feeling. I think many people also overlook Collier's lack of melody and tune so to speak. He cant write a good tune, simple as that, yet he can write brilliant harmonies and instrumentation blah blah which doesn't matter if the songwriting is poor. Another point- his productions sound so clean and I think hes a good producer, but the final product is like a cheap product (poor songwriting) in a beautiful premium box (good production). A final point- it offends me that this man is compared to the 'Mozart of our time.
Jacob is a greatly talented musician, but Mozart was a pure genius for melody and for excelling and being the best for all genres of his time.
Mozart's tunes live on for hundreds of years. I dare anyone to whistle a Collier tune and someone says 'oh I know that one. I guarantee, no one will.
Yeah, I agree mostly. Something was lost in all that production and complexity !
Honestly? I'm happy we have *one* successful artist who don't follow the "less is more" mantra. Like fine, we get it: you smoked and cried to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and now that's your entire taste in music, but it's kinda boring for everyone to chase the Rick Rubin-philosophy.
Does it mean everyone should/has to like his music? No. I do think, however, that it's easy to distinguish his critics in how they criticise him:
Shallow: tell me you haven't read sheet music without telling me you haven't read sheet music.
Bad at singing: okay, diaphragm is your thing. You're completely oblivious to singing pre-20th century.
Overly complex productions: dont appreciate prog or neoclassical music.
Shallow lyrics: haven't listened to jazz standards.
And all of these are fine opinions to hold. I'm never going to say an opinion is wrong. But it says way more about a critics taste in music than his capabilities/talents. I guess im trying to say that the same criticism of his music over and over again is becoming boring because, like the music he's distancing himself from - it's been done to death.
I think it's perfectly fine to love his music, but i also think if lots of people have similar criticism, then there are some obvious issues.
I honestly don't care for pink floyd... I would say the likes of The Prodigy mean a lot more to me, and I wouldn't call them minimalist.
Reading sheet music doesn't mean anything, Just see John Cage. Just because something is complex doesn't mean it's sounds good either.
It's a real skill to make something so complicated yet sound completely boring and dull.
You're making it sound like he used to be good at some point, rather than always writing stuff that just sounds bad..!
I have the background to easily understand what he's doing musically...
Collier is a unique type that experiments with the known possible depths of music theory. He uses it to create and explore and find new things, rather than to simply use music to write a song about human things that anyone can relate to.
His mind is beyond normal humans, that why this is all so inaccessible and ...strange.
Therefore, you must grow as a listener to MEET him at his level. You have to leave your own comfort zone of listening to some mindless jam while you are high....
He has things to say, he has emotions to share ... but it's not for everyone. He's like the emerging super AI that is 10 fold more capable than any human intellect, but it's all so.... alien and ...off putting.
I think your use of the word AI is correct. He does things perfectly, which in turn makes everything feel robotic and slightly emotionless.
Half agree. He has plenty of non-musician fans that love his energy and simplicity and heart. Look at the Mahogany Sessions. Simple and direct. Or his improvised live concert covers.
Cut this album in half and it's pretty decent. There really is too much going on. Every song is 3 songs in one. This album needs an editor more than anything. Some of the ideas are great then it forks into something that should have been another track but the next track is a 180 from what we just listened to 😂 lay off the coke Jake.
I don't know why, but he does harmonies, theoretically well, but the performance is sooo...plastic and doesn't do it for me. Thing is, you CAN do complicated music that goes in every direction (Think bohemian rhapsody by queen or A day in The Life by The Beatles) without getting boring. But I feel he doesn't take his music in the most explosive and unique areas that even challenges him. I feel he goes to areas he knows well and never leaves it.
Thanks for commenting! But i completely agree. He's technically great, but when it comes to experimentation, it ones across as really bland. All that complication for nothing...
Collier is obviously a musical genius, that's for sure, but what he produces doesn't suit my personal taste, especially his voice is far too impersonal. Both his music and his voice don't give me goosebumps or the desire for more. I love music (almost all genres), but I miss some down-to-earthness in his music. Every now and then the ear and the heart need a clear emotional direction, this is completely missing. Everything is way too airy, light and floating, which in my opinion makes it unbearable at some point. Less ist more.
this comment I'm about to make may be absolute bullshit, or actually have a ring of truth to it!...but 'I think a lot of people will cling on to things that they don't actually understand, which I suspect is giving oneself a sense that you are progressing, advancing in some way in this 'mad' world, and that you are becoming more sophisticated and cultured as the years move on... To think of the alternative, which is, 'we reach an age where we stagnant, and just stay the same.' I think this may be far more common than we allow ourselves to recognise or believe; i.e. loving the music we started out with as teenagers. How many times over recent months I've heard middle aged guys spurting out on one of these TH-cam review channels, how much they love 'Kiss'. For fucks sake, doesn't that say it all. With that said I may rather side with all of the Collier fanatics. I mean, I'd rather pretend to like Colliers music than actually liking 'Kiss'. That to me is? well, depressing..
I hope you don't think I'm middle-aged !?I think people cling on to past bands for nostalgia, some good memories in a crazy world...
There's plenty of older music I don't really care for, and part of why I started doing music reviews is to discover newer artists I've never heard of before!
Davis Brenda Robinson Larry Brown Margaret
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neurotypical music critics are in the wrong place to grok the content
Assuming that I don't of course..
why jaa have to go and make things so complicated
this whole album is just throwing all kinds of shit at the listener, hoping to impress them with how many instruments there are. The only people who are impressed by this record are those who misuse terms like "arrangement", "mixing", "phrasing" and stuff like that. His music sounds like if Steven Wilson was a dumbass and didn't learn anything from his musical inspirations/influences...
That actually made me laugh!
Bravooo!!!
Fortunately, Jacob doesn't care what you think about his music. If you don't like it, fine. He's going to keep making music that interests him and challenges him. He's innovative and he inspires a ton of people. The end.
your arguments are poorly developed and rude. you also need to get better at editing. write you script and organize your ideas.
Thanks for the feedback, I will take what you said into consideration
No more volumes pleeeeease 😅
At this rate, I agree!
No offense but, Mr 80 subs trying to give Jacob Collier advice? Really? LOL!
You can't say no offense and then just roast me!
@@IcySnapsYeah Just tryin' to soften it a little. It's not like me to go hard on someone like this. While it may be true what I said, I felt a little bit bad about saying it. But I really like Jacob's music and it just felt like you were going a bit too hard on him. It is just different kind of music.
Hey, no worries, I was kindof joking.. I shouldn't dish out criticism if I can't handle it right!
And I totally get being defensive over an artist you love, but the thing is, i don't hate him as an artists or person, I can see how talented he is! His music just doesn't resonate with me is all.
@@IcySnapsYeahOkay, yeah, I understand it. That is fine. His music doesn't resonate with my Dad either.
grift soemwehere erlse
This album is just an overproduced, disjointed mess. I couldn’t stand to even finish it
I agree!
When is someone going to tell the obvious? Jacob is on the spectrum! Remember in Rain man movie although he can count cards and count how many matches there, When they ask basic prices of things how he have no idea? It is the same thing! He cannot relate to what music make music..
I don't know if he is on the spectrum, but I wouldn't want to speculate.
where does one hear your music ?
I haven't put out any music in a long while, but I do have a sound cloud with some old projects, nothing special..(I'll put the link below), but I do have an album in the works that I would like to release by the end of the year.
m.soundcloud.com/sonnywinter
Good review man. Personally I hate it and can’t even stand one song precisely because all the points you made in the video
Thank you! I appreciate it a lot. Honeslty, I'm not sure how something this shallow gets approved by a label...
I also think this sucks. It doesn't even really sound experimental to me. It sounds like a really obnoxious amalgamation of generic sounds from a variety of genres. A lot of extremely cringe inducing ideas throughout.
Well that certainly describes that aimless word salad of yours. Maybe one day you'll be able to say something coherent and intelligent about even ONE of the songs. In the meantime, remind us of what you've created and put out there.
I think Jacob has talent but lacks taste. Thats all
I agree!
What's amazing and almost completely unique about the criticism of Collier by mediocre white men in their 20s/30s (I speak as one myself) eg Bradtasteinmusic, Anthony Fantano etc, is that basically all the key talking points are wholly detached from reality; that is, they are entirely constructed by the critics, with no evidence at all, based on your own preconceived ideas of what Jacob is about. If you don't like his music, that's obviously fine. If you hate his music, that is also entirely legitimate. But that doesn't make a defense for spouting ignorance.
I think Jacob is a brilliant artist, as is anyone who creates art! I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. i just have an opinion on his music. that opinion might not align with yours, I'm just trying to explain my issues with it. Also you shouldn't sell yourself short... i saw your channel, you got some talent!
I wouldn't call Fantano a mediocre white man. What he's done for music criticism for the internet age is unparalleled there are many critics that are his sons but he is the only one in his lane. I strongly doubt you've listened to the amount of music he has over 20 years. Jacobs is a genius but this record is musical meme. There are some really cool tracks and others are just downright awful.
@@ChetHanks-eh1md He probably has done a lot for music criticism. And I don't like it. I never hear him talk about the actual music itself, it's all about style and aesthetics.
The man who uses microtones in western music has rhymed “apart” with “heart.” Truly a turn for the worse.
It was rough to listen to in every sense.
yeah boring af, interesting production skills indeed, but's thats all i guess (?)
Music for music sake. There is no meaning behind any of it. Its Target music.
you need to calm down. if you've never tried it, try mushrooms. i hope it helps.
if not, just calm down. look inwards instead of spouting outwards. no persons opinions are objective and thats fine. but if they aren't supportive of a non harming person, why tell everyone? jealousy is also fine. but again, why telling us?
get help
@@3395149634 this is 100% a fake acc from the creator 😭
He's the most overhyped musician on the planet. I think it's mass hypnosis or people just trying to be in the incrowd. For a so called genius he keeps churning out awful songs.
The guy has so much talent and enthusiasm and (and (and (and))), and so (vanishingly) little taste. Yech... 0.3/10, wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I think that's the issue with him. He clearly has all this talent, but spreading it too far out, creating this weird mix of just noise
None of the concepts you mentioned are inherently bad ideas, as I could name albums that have demonstrated all of them, successfully. The real problem is that he has no taste, or actual instrumental or compositional ability, and seems to be completely unaware of this.
I agree, It's not his choice of style It's his lackluster execution for sure.