He lacks authenticity for me He's sung gospel numbers with runs up and down the scale and it's all pretty and theoretically interesting but it feels like cosplay
I feel it when you say "he lacks authenticity for me". Something very significant misses for me when I listen to his music. I don't find myself desiring more.
@@lemoanfr "Jacob Collier on returning to India for his Solo Piano Tour in Mumbai, Delhi, Bengaluru" (2023 interview for the telegraph india), he stated: "I’m not a religious person but I do think a great deal about spirituality, in the sense of listening to the universe and tuning into what it’s saying. I believe everything and everyone on this planet is an equal expression of the same cosmic life force that brought us here. I don’t see a separation between the divine and the human spirit."
I criticize him for being so gifted and at the same time making such a boring pieces of music, I mean, seriously, they transmit no emotion, it's just a very well assembled set of harmony and technique without a meaningful message.
I agree, but I don't think that's due to his voice. I think that's because he overproduces everything and doesn't leave enough space within the composition of his songs. If you listen to his first NPR concert, which contains somewhat stripped down version of a couple of his songs, I think you find a lot of emotion there. At least I wouldn't point out his voice as the problem. If not his production style, it's the songs themselves
Oh well, someone hasn't listened to djesse vol 2. I have to disagree, he also produced some "meaningful" songs (I don't really know your definition of "meaningful").
I can see your point. He doesn’t use nasal resonance or barely does. However he blends his voice brilliantly in his productions and It just works. I as a singer myself use a fair amount of faringeal but l have 0 issues with Jacob’s vocal choices.
@@randydominguezmusic These "fundamental rules" are more of a result of popular culture, and western music standards. I definitely hope to see more acceptance for other cultural music styles
I have been an immense fan of Jacob's music for years now, and I'll defend him, his wisdom and his creativity until the day I die. However, this guy truly knows what he's talking about or he wouldn't be making this video. I agree wholeheartedly that Jacob's vocal performances (especially in live settings) and sometimes even his lyrics could use a bit more work, but I think that Jacob's fanbase are more interested in the musical DNA/groove/melody/harmony of his songs rather than their vocal performances. I think Jacob might even be aware of this, which is why he has so many talented vocalists as features on his latest tracks!
I'm surprised this is the only video on TH-cam actually critiquing Jacob's vocals. The guy is an out of this world musician for sure, no two ways about it. But I think his most common problem is emotional connection, and this is most evident in his voice. Musicians (myself included) have a real issue with music snobbery, and forget that music is communication on an emotional level first, and an intellectual level second. Musicians might appreciate Jacob's music cerebrally, whereas most everyone feels something emotionally primal when listening to gospel or classic rock/pop vocal performances. Why? Because there's a fundamental, universal connection to the lyrics and sound that Jacob just doesn't have. He's a middle class guy from a family of musicians, his life experience is neither interesting nor relatable. Again, let me reiterate - he is a phenomenal musician, the music world is better off for his contributions. The way he talks about music makes me think that he wants to convey emotions in the way I described. But right now, unless you 'understand' musically what he's doing, his stuff will leave you cold. But what do I know, I don't have 2 Grammys 😂
Wow this comment is amazing, you are correct emotion in singing comes from finesse and ease, without these ingredients a singer won't connect. I know this because I'm a singer like Jacob who struggles to draw an audience in for the same reasons he does.
I hear the emotional connection in the passion and joy he has for the overall project, and how much fun he seems to be having doing it. I just realised thanks to your comment that normally I would be with you on needing to hear an emotional connection to lyrics, etc, I'm a singer and to me lyrics and connection are so important, but it weirdly doesn't matter to me in his stuff. I think i feel the buzz of energy off of the whole thing first and resonate with his love of creative flow. It will be interesting to see if any of the things you mention come in later in life after he has had more experience just living. Interesting take , though, it made me think about what I listen to - appreciate your thoughts :-)
hm. thanks for phrasing my opinion so good. i just have listened Cranberries Tiny desk concert. I could cry on Dolores voice while Jacobs is like sterile. Not even comparable in a million years.
WHy the fuck not? You make music, you publish it publicly, you're going to be met with criticism whether good or bad. It happens to every artist. Why not Jacob? Is he just so holier than thou that he doesn't deserve any criticism? He's just a fucking god? LOL@@BecomingANaturalSinger
I feel as though a large part of the reason Jacob sings the way he does is because of the nature of his arrangements. His voice sounds kind of like a sine wave to me. All sound is fundamentally sine waves that are altered by the different overtones and harmonics it has. Thats what makes voices sound different from other voices and other instruments etc. His arrangements and songs have hundreds of his own voice stacked on top and if he were to sing with more overtones it would get incredibly muddy. That’s what happens if you stack JUST your own voice. Thats why the muddiness doesn’t happen with choirs cause everyone has a different voice. I think thats why he leans towards that sine wavish and pure tone verses most singer because his music demands that. Also I think his perfect pitch also plays a role in his style of singing
Very informative, coincidentally I'm a big fan of both Collier and McFerrin and now I really notice the disparity in the richness of their voices. Jacob has said in interviews that he pays attention to the "breathiness" of his voice when singing and recording harmony but I think when he's singing melody it's evident he defaults back dampening the overtones. I wish he could see this.
Ain't nothing fake about Jacob's voice. For crying out loud, all of us have a unique voice, and just because I can't sing exactly like Michael Buble, doesn't make my voice fake, it makes it unique and different.
It's so annoying ...like the dude is a genius ..probably the best mind in music right now ...but there's no way u can tell me that u don't notice that his voice is weird n can actually although very rarely sound rather offputing ...the fan base is annoying imagine if his voice was just a little better n to be fair ..I would say his voice has gotten better over the years but he already has the range if he could just improve his technique ..the harmonies would sound much better.....I mean even Bruno Mars can get better at singing ...but considering how young he is the fan base can't just encourage him to get better ..all they see is a GOD
I don't especially LIKE his voice, but that's not really the point! The uniqueness of his voice is his USP. How do you measure 'uniqueness'? One way, is his commercial success; so, I guess, we'll see.
Learned a lot from this video thanks! It’s funny you mention this, in real life, most people I know including musicians and students are very critical of jacob’s music, then I come online and it’s hard to find a bad word about him. Very broadly, a common criticism is that his music is interesting but not that enjoyable.
I don't know. When I hear Jacob, I don't really hear anything wrong with his voice. I actually find it very calming and warm. I don't understand the dislikes though, what the heck.
My criticism of him is more specific. There was a collab video he did with a bunch of people, many other voices, which started out very interesting. But less than 30 seconds in, it was ALL Jacob's cloned heads singing the harmonies. Dozens of Jacobs, no one else - all the original collab voices disappeared, and the rest of the video was just him. This was not a celebration of everyone else's voices - it was a replacement of everyone else with himself. That turned me off completely from his content. It just felt like "I'm better than everyone else, here's more of me!".
Man enjoy the music and dont try to understand a genious like Jacob. He is a free man. His music give me what I need. I feel free too when I listen and play to his music.
It is not a complicated issue at all. It's actually veeeery simple. He is very breathy. He needs to develop his chestvoice both in terms of core and depth. His voice is very atrophied because of singing so breathy all the time.
You’re right in all your points but as a fan of his I don’t really care. I’m gonna like his music whether or not he is singing properly. His stuff inspires me to practice and write and I find it all quite beautiful. Awesome video tho. Just subscribed
I really like your video, because you are generally right about that topic. However, I have one problem with your argumentation considering the soft pallet. I am a classical singer and you are right that your singing voice should start in a natural, neutral position. But a raised soft pallet does NOT take away the overtones. Especially when going to the high register it is so important to relax the larynx and to lift the soft pallet. This may be not the pop way, but if you have ever listend to good classical singing, doesn’t matter wether it is opera, oratory or Lied you will notice that all those singers sing very loud because they have a voice very rich, full of overtones. They achieve that because they raise their pallet(among other things). You will lose overtones, if you don’t connect your voice to your body, if you don’t support it properly. And this is not just me saying it. This is technical knowledge that has endured since the 1600’s probably even earlier! Classical singing needed a technique that creates the most possible overtones in every register because there haven’t always been microphones, to be heard over an orchestra. I don’t mean to criticize you, I just wanted to make clear, that a raised soft pallet it is not only possible, but actually the most healthy and effective way to create overtones in your voice. You need to do it right of course.
Anthony Walker Don’t think so. could you be more concrete what you think is „hot air“ about this. I said certain points where where I have a different opinion. Right now you are just saying some very empty, not constructive criticism, without any explanation why you think so. Maybe you fill your response with some meaning, argumentation and... well POINTS 😂. because right now you just sound like a teenager who wants to troll.
You know how I know you're a teenager? Bc you typed outa paragraph in defense it seems. I'm not wasting more time on this than I already have. Have a good day. You need to do it right of course.
I haven’t seen anyone say this yet, but he has talked about how he did some operas as a kid and that was how he was trained to sing, so that might have something to do with his singing. Idrk much about what that entails, it might be inconsequential to how he sings now. I personally like his voice though. I think it goes well with his style.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger I will say I think it’s pretty clear that he’s a bass singer and I think he sings the way he does so it sounds a bit lighter and gentler and to sing songs that usually are bit out of the bass range. I’m a pretty low alto and to sing higher more classical songs I’ve been taught to raise the soft palette.
I think Jacob is a genius but I don’t have a problem with him, I have a problem that people unconditionally praise him for every small thing he does just because he has been touted as a musical genius, people who are also not musicians and not music theorists praise him even more because what he says about music is absolutely beyond them because they don’t understand the fundamentals of music
It just feels like something cold and clinical written by a nerd sitting in a cold basement. Like yeah dude is probably a musical theory genius, but not a creative or soulful, or even tasteful one lol.
My opinion of Jacob is he’s got a TREMENDOUS amount of Talent, energy and passion for music. He’s capable to play an incredible range of genres and instruments at a near genius level. He has an exceptional ear and periphery of sound and VISION. That said, he IMHO doesn’t have an exceptional voice. Even so, he does a great job with the voice he does have and I imagine has worked hard to improve it. I mean if the WORST thing you could say about a guy is his voice isn’t impressive- that’s not too bad considering all the incredible gifts he DOES have🤔
Becoming a Natural Singer ps I’m a little jealous of anyone whose lucky enough to have a mother that is as capable and. LOVING as his mother CLEARLY IS.
The one thing I don't like about when certain music people blow up or gain any little bit of popularity online is that they become like a cult of personality and they get this cult-like following that believes that their person is perfect . Of course we all are guilty of this with certain people. Mine would definitely be Beyonce but like at a certain point you have to step back and realize that these people and their talents are not omnipotent and that they are not Exempt of fault or criticism Or being able to improve in some way because no one Is and no one is perfect
He is really fun to watch break down music however I just don't like his music. It's not because I'm a noRmiE wHo onLy likEs 4/4 sOngS wiTh 4 chOrds, it's just because his music doesn't sound good in my opinion. I know that this is gonna get a lot of hate so if you're gonna reply to me try to be constructive to the conversation and not just make baseless assumptions.
Hey man I totally get it, at first I didn't really like Jacob's music either (I was just fascinated by his acapella covers) but through repeated exposure and getting to know him as a person I am now a die-hard fan. If you're not opposed to trying to open yourself up to his music, I recommend listening to two of his more recent tracks, "All I Need" and "Time Alone with You" - they're much less show-off-y and less technically complex. They're also much easier to wrap your head around and, hell, even dance to.
I think it's similar to most very out there styles, where if you take the time to just deep dive into it and listen over and over you'll be able to appreciate it.. but more than appreciate it, you'll start to LOVE it. I felt the same listening to many other artists, it sometimes just takes a minute to learn the language of how they speak. It's understandable if you don't want to take the time listening to music you don't like, but I'd recommend that you do still.. Cause it's worth it.
His new album is something completely new. Some of the songs are super simple with brilliant melodies and beautiful lyricism. He's shown so much restraint for a guy with that many ideas haha. The 2nd track is kinda wack though
I'm not a vocal tutor but actually in the beginning there was always something bugging me with Jacob's voice. I suppose now it grew on me now and although I think what you're saying might be true (again, I'm missing some key knowledge about accents and vocal technique) and actually as I said myself it took me a while to get used to it, I can make 2 points for me: 1) if you compare his singing with 5-6 years ago he has improved vastly and maybe his tone didn't change a lot, but his delivery has matured. A LOT! He's a good story teller and this is something that isn't really easily taught. He know how to take you in a journey. This is where passion/talent/hard-hard-hard work kicks in. Which brings me to my second point 2) I don't want him to change tbh. I'm now comfortable with it and I know he is too. I know he can and will improve more but I don't think a conversation about his technique is gonna salvage the situation. No one is perfect and J, as all of us, has indeed his flaws. But, he does everything so naturally and I don't want this element to disappear. If the sacrifice is a couple people finding his voice dull I'm sure he can take the hit 😂
It just feels like something cold and clinical written by a nerd sitting in a cold basement. Like yeah dude is probably a musical theory genius, but not a creative or soulful, or even tasteful one lol.
@@Anewevisual It's not surprising that someone would think that but clearly you don't know his process or have seen him live (by the way he constantly does live streams etc so it's no secret how soulful and creative he is). I have no reason to "take sides" or anything but it's just so silly to call JC not creative or tasteful. By any standars he is those things.
Fascinating video. I’m a choir teacher and studied classical singing for many years, still do in fact. I’ve learned that although singers may not necessarily sing flat, the lack of overtones causes the pitch to be less defined. This comes across as flat to well trained ears.
Great video, but some comments you're having to deal with holy jesus... I'd say that Jacob's biggest problem is his fan base, this is some cult level stuff going on
It’s because he won some Grammys and they think if they say they like him it somehow makes them understand his music and music in general better than the rest of the world. For me he ruins most of the songs he covers...
I completely agree, you can not argue with the disciples. It is more like a cult to them so there is no point on saying ANYTHING contrary to their rules. This to me is not being open to criticism.
Chlorine Lori that's a spicy take phaha. Andyeah I feel like his cult-like super fans were getting out of bed doing their daily Jacob Collier youtube search to listen to his entire discography again and they saw this video and it ruined their day. I think he said it pretty well actually.
I am very much into music and play a few instruments and I am interested in theory and experiments.Jacob interests me in that sense, but yes, when I hear his voice I don't connect to it, and your explanation here sounds reasonable. I would guess that you are right to a great extent. Then whether this is how Jacob wants it to be or not, I of course don't know. It certainly could be that he wants to do it this way, that he wants to use his voice in this particular way.
I don't know if you can really argue that his voice is bad in any way. He has incredible pitch, a lovely vibrato, and great flexibility. This shift you're speaking of, if anything, would only increase the range of vocal textures available to him. The way he sings is not inherently wrong and to claim that it's the one thing keeping him from being a musical legend is preposterous. Many legendary composers gained their status without a singing voice at all. While I agree that his voice could improve, and that it would be a valuable improvement, I don't believe his voice is the sole thing keeping him from connecting to audiences. The biggest difference between Jacob Collier and a decent pop singer-songwriter is the style of music. I think most people who don't connect with Jacob's music simply don't enjoy his complex, unfamiliar style. But that style is also his appeal; there's a reason a large majority of his audience are musicians. TL DR: Jacob's already a great singer and his music is perfect for his audience so it's not THAT big of a deal for him to change his voice.
One other thing to keep in mind, since you (Carl John)made the comparison to Bobby McFerrin, is that McFerrin's first album didn't come out until he was 32. Jacob is 25. Give things time; he has already covered a huge amount of ground musically in his relatively short life.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger My other reply might have been a bit harsh, but as a musician that has played in many different genres, I find Jacob's command of musical ideas to be utterly amazing in the way he uses and combines style, and his harmonic command is superlative, and while he may not be the equal of the very best pianists, guitarists, bassists, etc., he has enough command to realize what he is setting out to do, which is no small feat at the level of arranging he is working at. His use of his voice is also quite amazing in his keen ear for harmonization, and in the broad way that he utilizes it through such a vast range of musical language. Do I hope that he develops his vocal technique more as he matures, and develops more color and focus? Of course; but let's not get too wrapped up in this single facet of this and remember that he is a 25 year old that is still growing musically with each passing year.
Thanks for initiating such an interesting topic. You know, someday it might not at all be a terrible idea for him to follow the course you prescribe. It would just be another tool in his insanely large toolbox. But first thing, most of the singing he does is with stacked, ultra rich choral voicings. To introduce buzzy tone to this would ruin most of that work. Not to mention render his microtonal work muddy and problematic. I can't imagine In The Bleak Midwinter or Moon River sung in the way you prescribe, it would be awful. Ditto for most of his masterpieces. He'd have to flip to your way of singing for solos, then flip back for the harmony work. Not impossible, but a bit Jeckl & Hyde... I just don't think he is interested. When he wants a rich voice he simply collaborates, Djesse albums are filled with the kind of singing you like, just with guest artists. I'm sure this will continue. I think the people who love him the most, like me, and who easily accept the upper class choir boy affectation, are the ones that see his work through the prism of just being interested in the music in Jacob's head. All these things, piano, bass, drums, voice, studio magic, etc, are really just conduits for the real juice, which is the ideas. Musical and conceptual. He has a peerless mind for musical construction, and executing those ideas with deep feeling and endless variety. That's the Jacob I have learned to love, and the fact that his tone is thin just shrivels to insignificance because it is not really what I am listening to. I'm listening to the historically original ideas.
Yes, thank you! I agree a hundred percent. A pleasure to read that fans can care about the feelings he puts into his music instead of only listening to the technical skills like unfortunately most people. Jacob is a storyteller and that's why I connect so much to his music and to him as an artist and human being.
You said it perfectly! I already commented about how he leans more towards a sine wave tone so his massive vocal stacks wouldn’t be muddy with all those clashing buzzes. I wish I saw this before I commented lol.
His harmonies (excluding some of the “just” & microtonals) are 99% based on Take 6. They not only worked with Stevie but are using the same jazz/gospel ideas with more extensions. I think their influence is overlooked. Would love JC to co-arrange an album with them. Also I think he should get into more Man Tran (offbeat of avenues/Brazil) harmony. To me, it would suit his vibe much more.
I maybe get an answer here. When I first listen the duo Jamie Cullum, and Jocob Collier, it was so obvious that Jamie Cullum voice was much better, and emotional. I feel like something more deep in his voice. So that is maybe the explanation !
I know that as a child he was classically trained singing-wise he sang in operas, I remember him talking about it. So I wonder if it's not something he chose to do consciously to sound different. Because I'm guessing if he took singing lessons someone told him about the sound of his voice. Although it can be off putting at first due to the nature of the unusually nature of the character of his singing.
My view is that it's the result of the poor instruction, without lessons or instruction he wouldn't have the clutter that inhibits his ability to connect.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger It would be really interesting to have Jacob's take on this matter. Because I'm guessing that hanging with Quincy Jones and all of his legendary friends a few of them must have pointed out his unusual vocal style (which I absolutely love, I personally really do connect with him).
Only discovered him yesterday but although blown away by his amazing musical prowess I too agree his voice lacks tonal resonance, I put it down to his failure to adopt an American accent, which much simpler put is I guess what you're saying, hence why we often find a American lilt so attractive in singing
I think that everyone has a different opinion of what makes a good singer. For many people the ability to use a voice to communicate whatever idea they have in their mind and feel completely free to do that is what makes them a great singer. Some people might value technical prowess the most highly; placement, resonation, control etc, and if you can do all of those things best you win. Or it might be all about conveying emotion through lyrics. For others they think that original tone rates more than those other factors, and if they can recognise an artist distinctly out of the masses of other voices out there they consider that the best. I was trying to figure out what was really bothering me about this reaction - I had to sit with it for awhile - and I guess part of it is people arguing about their opinions of what they value most and really believing they are more right than others without allowing multiple realities to exist and be okay with that. I was reading all of these comments and thinking, yup, sure, if that's where you are coming from, you are right. But so is he...and she...and people hate seeing people they love criticised....and want to criticise back, it's a base human instinct.....I looove Jacob because of his freedom to be himself and vulnerability in putting himself out there so fearlessly while being an imperfect/perfect genius. I found myself even getting squirrely and wanting to bite back at you while listening to your video because i am such an imperfect singer and I would really fear a criticism of myself done like this. But after I got past this I could hear the technical things you were saying. And once I settled my gut response I realised my highest opinion is that his imperfections don't need to be "fixed" unless he desires so. If not it really, really doesn't matter. From what I have seen young Mr. Collier seems really happy and relaxed being who he is being and doing what he is doing - much more than I ever was in my creative space when I was that age. Crikey! I guess I think that is the most important thing about being a singer, or artist, really, is enjoying yourself being art, or in his case, being the music. Phew - lucky, that! Well that was a late night rant but healing for me....
Jacob collier is unique however his voice may not appeal to some but when he sings his voice is sufficiently his own not to sound like everyone else. that after all is what any singer wan ts
Jacob makes music, not for his audience to enjoy, but for himself. He does not even want to become one of the top 40 artists. Listen to the podcast: This must be the gig. He explains his choices very well and he especially explains what he stands for. Music is in his blood and the joy is the most important part. Having it as a career is a huge bonus. So, if you like it that's great, if you don't, also fine. He is a storyteller and connects with music in ways I have never seen, happen before. If his voice doesn't touch you, his story definitely will if you are eager enough to listen closer.
If he’s not making music for his audience to enjoy, why is he making albums and doing live concerts, and posting multiple videos of himself online? Of course he’s doing it for his audience.
@@jazzyjake99 I mean it's not made to the audiences taste. It's made for his own taste and people like his music too so he accidentally became a musician/artist as a career. He even said that if he wasn't acknowledged for his music, he would still be making music because he still would have these ideas in his head.
Eline May Yeah, and I guess he just accidentally went to the trouble of editing numerous videos overdubbing himself with all the effects, just for himself. I guess he just accidentally had MIT engineers design a one man concert for him to perform for audiences. I guess he just accidentally submitted and promoted his music for Grammy review, so he could win awards for fame. If you think that’s all by accident, you’re delusional.
The information and the presentation of it absoLUTELY clicks and (here we go) resonates with me, I’m a huge vocal nerd and the way you speak about it got an INSTANT subscriber
I also think that Colliers type of music creates a division already and enjoying his voice is just a part of enjoying his composition. I mean look at Dirty Loops, they had insane arrangements AND a vocalist that was appealing but are nowhere NEAR as famous as Collier. I think you just have to accept that when you add THIS much theory, there will be a distance from the listener and the composer already. Like Mozart even to this day is way more appealing than somebody like Tchaikovsky, and it's because simplicity will sell more.
voice is just another instrument that if you are a broad musician you cant be so focused in that kind of perfection. It is his expression of voice. If you come to Brazil for example and listen tha best brasilian musicians like Tom Jobim, and many others from bossa nova and samba, it is quite normal to find artists that has their own way of singing and not always tuned or in perfect way like a professional singer.
The overtones, the altered position, the palate, it all makes sense, and resonated with an intuitive dislike for his music I couldn't quite grasp. Your explanation is convincing and cuts clearly like a laser through ice. It's also, as you said, not a criticism of Jacob Collier as an artist, just a criticism of his manieristic way of singing. His fans will argue that this particular altered voice just happens to be his means to reach an individualistic form of self-expression, like other singers with "weird" voices (Joanna Newsom, Devendra Benhart, even Bowie) have done; all of those singers have a lot of lovers and haters. I think this interpretation is open for debate, but I just don't "feel" it.
I actually think he's coming from a recording background where he is used to stacking his voices in 8-10-15 tone harmonies and producing extremely complex chords that way. I guess not having or developing his solo vocal technique to great extend was the price he was willing to pay at some point consciously or subconsciously to achieve the desired voice-stacking 100 vocal track harmonies he was able to achieve and win Grammys for (Moon River, The Flintstones, etc). But I think he's began developing his vocal technique recently, you can hear him sing live using his vocal mix, and singing high notes with power. Ofcourse, no exuberant thrills or timbre changes yet. But I think it's a matter of time. I think he's aware.
It's this, but another important point about stacking the vocals is that he DOESN'T WANT overtones. He already EQs and filter the vocal stacks heavily, so dealing with rich overtones would make it an unwieldy mess (and some would argue that it already IS).
Lyrics. That's always the weakness. If you land in the pocket where it's honest enough to feel true, simple enough to be relatable to lots of people, and smart enough to hold up to repeat listening... then you got something, and the voice is still important, but it becomes secondary. Look at Steve Balsamo-incredible, beautiful voice, great melodies... can't remember a lyric of his.
Your spot on about Colliers voice, also posh English accents don't work well vocally outside of operetta . I have to say his music leaves me cold although, yes, he's skilled obviously. And why is he always covering such great songs.? Wouldn't it be better to cover less well known material and make something interesting of it?
I really enjoy him talking about music and explaining things, but was surprised to find hie music the opposite; really boring... which made me think, a lot of good music and att is made from suffering and struggle.... and /or having something meaningful to say.about the human condition, however limited the range of their intentions.... which seems making from his lovely life (not wishing any suffering on him, but maybe his lane is educating and academic rather than artist) It was interesting to hear your professional explanation of how the mechanics of singing create the sound that creates that lack of resonance with the listener.
Interesting theory, I have also had issues connecting with Jacob's voice and you may have verbalised what I couldn't. His vocals sound almost insincere to my ears.
I get some of the points that you made. However, you should mention that this only applies to his "lead vocals". His way of singing harmony and blending all the notes in the chords (different timbre, distance from microphone, number of voices per note, etc.) is just incredible. He's not just a singer but creates entire songs with his voice. He 's got the ability to use his voice as different instruments and to serve different functions in a song that otherwise would need synthesizers, acoustic instruments, background singers, etc. By the way, he demonstrated using his voice more like the mainstream pop singers many times in his masterclasses, I think he just makes a musical choice not to sound like them. For myself, I can actually connect very well with his style of singing.
what i like about jacob singing is that he just seems to care about reaching the note, he doesn't care much how, and honestly neither do i, sounds good looks good and works for him.
Interesting what you said about the "soft palette". That really helps me do a better impression haha, i have a regional Scottish accent. Good luck with the channel.
Criticizing an over-the-horizon singer/musician/performer for his crisp clear voice - which clearly got professional attention and proper training - is a very slippy slope. Fantasizing about "fixing" his voice is not helping a bit. I am quiet confident that Jacob Collier is actively seeking to thrive and will consult whom ever he respects to improve in whatever instrument he chooses. I would delete this video. It is hitting back at you.
for all his incredible virtuosity and technical ability, his music doesn't come from his heart and has a sterile and showoff quality.. I would much rather listen to someone with far less musical chops but whose music is informed by their life experience and soul. There are many electronic musicians for instance who can barely play the keyboard but whose music is nevertheless beautiful and inspired. He seems like a person who hasn't had much pain in his life to draw from and just lacks the grit of a true artist.
An artist earns from his fans and learns from his critics. I appreciate his particular vocal sound in the various styles of music he makes. I don't think he should lose that. However, I think he would greatly benefit from taking time to really develop the particular sound of voice being described here. It would certainly be to his advantage to devote some focus on leveraging the one instrument that connects most with an audience. Aside from that, to there's no denying the brilliance of his musical genius and of his elaborate compositions.
I think people are sick of his generation trying to place him above the real greats .I heard him doing Somebody to love , By Queen , and a real singer Freddie Mercury. His version was awful , no soul to it . I can't sing , but I have good ears .
I never heard criticism towards him but I have noticed that exact problem but I didn't know the full explanation. Still think that he utilised that as a feature insead of a bug.
I came to this video because I was listening to a singer I had never heard before and thought "dayum that guy has a pretty singing voice" ...and then binged all his videos and came to wonder what it was I liked so much about his voice and what made it sound so good enough to get me so excited about it, because i usually care more about the song as a whole rather than just a pretty voice, from there ended up listening to a bunch of posts by vocal coaches just out of curiosity even though I have no aspiration to be a singer.. from there, I saw a lot of posts on my feed about Bridge Over Trouble Water....got curious about this jacob collier person...binged all the videos i could find about him...found him really interesting and really love a lot of his music, absolutely adore him as an artist and a person...but wondering why, although i hate to admit it...sometimes his voice makes me cringe. I have come full circle.
Problem with Jacob is he’s just copy pasting complex music theory into action. He’s not doing something innovative with all the theory he knows. Oh and he’s an awful songwriter. He has lots of talent tho, but should get WAY more creative and take songwriting classes.
Yeah he kind of does this thing where instead of sitting down to *write* a Songz he kinda just copy-pastes a hundred layers till it's just kind of slop and then says it's done. He doesn't have the "musician's tact" that a songwriter needs. Being a writer is about organizing notes, and when one can't do that they find ways to make it appear like they can and he does it through adding way too many things.
But the voice *is* Collier's original main "instrument": He started off singing in the opera as a young child, and first became famous for doing a-Capella arrangements on TH-cam.
This is a great video. Spot on! That plummy accent really comes through in his singing for sure. This bloke’s accent’s quite a lot like mine. Mate you from Herts?
@@BecomingANaturalSinger yeah dude, many times. But in this case, they're not. And if you're not happy with the "majority", then take the words of the members of Take 6 regarding how good a singer Jacob Collier is. Anyone who can stand at the helm of Take Six and lead them in a rendition of You and I by Stevie Wonder and hit those crazy riffs, perfect falsetto and key changes is a ridiculously good singer regardless of if they conform to your notions of propper technique. Don't be bitter because you can't do what he can, be better. I'm sure there's shit you can do that he can't. But if we're gonna skip on what the majority think, let's take the word of Snarky Puppy, Take 6, Steve Vai, Jules Buckley and Quincy Motherfucking Jones lol
I think it´s unnecessary to track someone down just to criticize them. Obviously his fans (me included) are going to say positive things about him. THAT IS THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF BEING A FAN, you like his music. Of course it isn´t for everyone but so be it, let us enjoy it.
I can tell you I've seen comment sections with a vast majority negative comments towards his voice. They came from people who weren't fans and were hearing his music for the first time. That doesn't happen a lot anymore, but it used to when he was first coming on to the scene. His fanbase is now well established, and it's primarily made up of trained musicians who experience his music differently to other people. I think it's fair to examine why some people don't like his voice as long as it comes with the understanding he doesn't necessarily need to cater to them.
i agree, ive always thought his voice is his achilles heel. ye its extremely on pitch, but its not really that pleasant. imagine someone with a beautiful voice AND jacob's composing. would truly be the sound of heaven. guess that's what moon river was for
I learned a heck of alot of how Jacob sets his voice to sing, and great info throughout the video. I feel alot of his "disposition" from singing has resulted from the vast amount of genres he puts himself through. I feel his voice settles well with acoustic ballads such as "Rest your weary head". I say he's well on his way to raising the bar of standards due to his vast musicianship in other areas.
I am an opera singer and i totally agree with you. The thing with opera singing is your vocal life depends on natural voice placement. Even though some accomplished singers do start the change their sound a bit, the foundation is there. Jacob sounds extremely artificial and for me its hard to listen to. I do feel that some of it also translates to his composition and general playing.
This topic has really split the like/dislikes so must be relevant. I love Jacob Collier. When I first heard PYT I thought, wow! Take 6, D’Angelo, Dilla, Herbie! All my faves. Take 6 are not only all virtuosos but the different textures and timbres create dimension. This can’t be done with one voice. Plus, they are all American and sing with US soul accents, not Leafy London ones. Id love to hear more instrumental from Jacob. He is an incredible talent!
My big complaint is that he stacks his own vocals instead of trying to create an ensemble with an ensemble sound, which I just think would be tops. I know he has explored some group vocals, and that the challenges of getting multiple voices together are many, but wow what a missed opportunity imo and one of the reasons why people read a “soulless” or “flatness” into his music. That’s one of my hot takes.
Great video - I do like Jacob but his vocals have always stood out to me for the wrong reasons. To me, hearing him sing, it always sounds like he's taking the p*ss, as though he's doing a mocking impression of someone singing, I'm forever waiting for him to drop the act and start singing for real. Despite that, I rate him very very highly as a musician overall.
There are a lot of famous singers who are not good singers but made millions and so will Jacob. He is passionate about music which includes vocals. You hear the passion when he sings. The more you listen to him the more you hear it which makes him a good singer.
It’s overproduction and the striving for “perfection” which all seems really inauthentic. You listen to like, The Glow Pt 2, which is all a lesson in authenticity and the simpleness and imperfection that gives people emotion. While it seems like Jacob Collier had a great idea, then he tacks another idea and another idea until it doesn’t even resemble the original idea. Along with really clean voice recording, which is impressive technically, but feels fake. When you sing everything like you are in a mega church, it’s hard to feel like this isn’t just to please an audience and not to please yourself, make art to show your feelings, not make art as a competition for who is the most talented. Because Jacob and like Charlie Puth would beat a lot of people that are considered some of the greatest musicians
For me the vocal is the least interesting part of most any music. His voice is pretty interesting tonally. He is a musician not a singer which for me is a good thing. I dont see this as a problem. Melody is king.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger Elvis is king. Haha couldn't resist. But really, personally for me, 90% of vocals (and vocalists) I could happily do without. And the ones I like tend to have a very unique, personal, raw sound, not a refined. For me, composition, arrangement, groove, harmony, and texture are all more king for me than vocals. I guess we're all entitled to our preferences.
Firstly, I can understand not liking his singing voice. I used to not. But now I love it. One of the reasons he sings the way he does is because of his songwriting style! Because he is layering SO MANY tracks, he is using a flatter tone so that he can be harmonically more dense with less clashing overtones. This is part of the “issue” for when he needs to sing solo. He has practiced so much of this round tone, that he has no “bite” in his sound. I think that it is less of a problem and more of an artistic choice. It’s like Nirvana. Not everyone liked the sound. But that was NOT the point. It was to make the music that they wanted to make. And with the sound that they wanted to use. In addition, I think it’s obvious that he wants to have this sound because he can hit microtonal notes to such an accurate degree, that clearly he could put in the vocal work if he so chose.
The funny thing is, Collier’s singing is actually the result of proper theory and exercise. He applies the basics of theatrical delivery and voice acting to singing, and used his voice akin to an instrument. It’s evident in how his lips move, as if he takes a lot of effort to pronounce more than regular. From where I’m looking, his voice has almost everything right; the depth, the vibrato, and questionably, everything that you said it’s not: rich and full of personality. I feel like it’s the visual aspect of it people don’t like primarily, and then you might pick on how unnerving and sometimes synthesised the a capella recording style sounds. Djesse Vol. 2 especially has tons of beautiful singing in it, from the simplicity of Make Me Cry to the adventure in Sky Above. I would even go out on a limb and say I find it extremely attractive. I would’ve understood if this was simply a technical criticism, but I find myself absolutely disagreeing with the statement you make, that his singing would make him less of a generational talent. I’m sorry, but that sounded completely absurd. I don’t need to preach about his achievements or his age or the circle of people that venerate him and are pushing and propelling him to become a household sensation. Eventually we will all go to church!
I can’t really enjoy Jacob Collier. Mainly because there is already so much music that already fills that Niche for me. Hellfire by Black MIDI, Yellow House by Grizzly Bear, Fatigue by L’rain. I could go on. But they all use weird (and some normal) harmony but in new contexts that feels much more fresh and interesting, even if technically it’s not as harmonically dense.
U shared that so elegantly & respectfully!!!! I love Jacob & have seen some of your vids..... this one made me subscribe! U were humble, pure hearted & I feel guided by GOD to make an already awesome Jacob transcend to another level if he takes your advice! I’ve been done n TH-cam since they started this channel & I’ve never heard any human deliver a message as well as u did this one!!! GOD bless u!!!! U r a giant in my eyes! That took real courage!!! Love u!!!! PS, I can sang sang & u sound exactly like my mother did as she taught us!!!! I pray any listener/viewer hears your heart!!!!!
Excellent video. You've articulated what I was feeling about his voice. I knew there was something about the "tone" that was off-putting for me. Jeez, he seems to have attracted a rabid, if niche following.
Jacob Collier is the Virgil Donati of out-there-composition. I listen to Colliers work when I want something new to chew on in regards to music theory, but there are very few full songs I listen to just for the enjoyment of the music. Same as Donatis work; pushes the technical boundaries.
I actually thought he was manipulating his voice electronically to sound that way, a vocoder is it? Now this tells me he his vocal qualities are studied and deliberate. It's hard to get by and, coupled with the sonic overload on his recordings, it's a tough listen. I'm no musician, let alone singer, but it's clear Mr Collier is super talented. Should he try to reign it all in or is this a future we will come to wonder at? I don't hate it, but I can't bring myself to be relaxed around it. I find myself analysing his music, rather than immersing myself in it, which i would prefer.
"Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art." - Claude Debussy Or like what Emperor Joseph II said to Mozart after the opera: “Too many notes” Story of Jacob Collier
I’ve always hear this in his voice but couldn’t put my finger on it. It keeps me from being able to listen to him for more than a few songs at a time but that works out because some of his stuff can be audibly exhausting after a while. Still an incredible musician!
His voice is a huge part of his appeal. I think people are possibly more turned off by his improvisational style because he's so free and exploratory with his runs. I'm a fan every thing Jacob does though.
The area of compromise is certainly also in hi piano playing. He’s really not a spectacular pianist. He wouldn’t even be accepted into an elite program with his technique.
Some people just don't like that kind of music. I for sure don't. I can appreciate his skills and knowledge, but does It mean I have to suck up his music because of it? Ofc not. Take John Lennon or Cobain for example; their music is nowhere near as complex in theory, structure or rhythm but it still resonates with milions and milions of people. I just don't get the same emotional response when I listen his music, it feels like a showoff kind of music. Emotional value is so underappreciated in music nowadays.
A very sincere and deep analysis. So we can all agree he is a genious musician, one of a kind, but a mediocre vocalist. But many great performers did/do not have the technic you are applying to and still can move you deeply. So in my opinion the reasons that could "filter" his performance are 1) overly using his digital program that transforms his keyboard (amazing) harmonies into harmonized choir - like voices. This in it self creates an un natural, almost auto tune like effect. Of course, it would be crazy to impossible for him to really record and sing all the different voices with such precision and sync (although possible). 2) He is intellectualy a genious but emotionally not deep enough. Very simple. That's why one is impressed by him rather than being deeply moved. But let's face it: how many singers with perfect technic can guarantee deep emotions? Being a great singer doesn't make you a great artist. So, I feel that while you are coming from a place of encouragement rather than of mean criticism the fact is that he does eventually touch many young people while approaching them to quality and sophisticated music which in itself is important with all the horrible music around. Of course, there is a risk that his special style and even his amazing arrangements could become a repetitive cliché. If I were him, I would go to a great vocal master (by the way, with all due respect, you are not the only one out there and money is not his problem...no offence) but when you have such a world success from such a young age one tends to consume it as fast as possible. In the end of the day we can find legitimate criticism in every artist. It is also a matter of taste. He is a passionate and original young genious, with an impressive vocal range (a part of the overtones and pallet) and that in itself is a gift to the world. Let's see how he developes. Kudos
tbh i think his voice is great, his deep notes are velvetty and soothing and his highs and the way he glides over from note to note have a distinct magic to them that i cant quite describe tho i guess i can see how some people would think its bland or weird
great vid! i never considered his posh accent as being an influence on the dark tone. however i feel like your point about the jack of all trades master of none argument might be a little flawed in the sense that prior to diversifying into other instruments, he was a boy soprano in a number of operas and i can't imagine that he didn't have vocal coaching at that point in his life. I also recall him saying at some point that he had never taken any music lessons except some vocal lessons when he was young though i can't find a source for that. i must admit though that i found the voice odd and grating when I initially discovered his music, though i've grown to love it, especially on djesse vol. 2
He lacks authenticity for me
He's sung gospel numbers with runs up and down the scale and it's all pretty and theoretically interesting but it feels like cosplay
Probably feels like cosplay because he doesn't believe in God
I feel it when you say "he lacks authenticity for me". Something very significant misses for me when I listen to his music. I don't find myself desiring more.
Feeling this comment.
@@placeholder8671 He doesn't..? Source?
@@lemoanfr "Jacob Collier on returning to India for his Solo Piano Tour in Mumbai, Delhi, Bengaluru" (2023 interview for the telegraph india), he stated: "I’m not a religious person but I do think a great deal about spirituality, in the sense of listening to the universe and tuning into what it’s saying. I believe everything and everyone on this planet is an equal expression of the same cosmic life force that brought us here. I don’t see a separation between the divine and the human spirit."
I criticize him for being so gifted and at the same time making such a boring pieces of music, I mean, seriously, they transmit no emotion, it's just a very well assembled set of harmony and technique without a meaningful message.
Try listening to his song, "In the Real Early Morning". Absolutely breathtaking, and such a lovely message.
I agree, but I don't think that's due to his voice. I think that's because he overproduces everything and doesn't leave enough space within the composition of his songs. If you listen to his first NPR concert, which contains somewhat stripped down version of a couple of his songs, I think you find a lot of emotion there. At least I wouldn't point out his voice as the problem. If not his production style, it's the songs themselves
Oh well, someone hasn't listened to djesse vol 2.
I have to disagree, he also produced some "meaningful" songs (I don't really know your definition of "meaningful").
I think this is massively subjetive.
Check his last NPR
I can see your point. He doesn’t use nasal resonance or barely does. However he blends his voice brilliantly in his productions and It just works. I as a singer myself use a fair amount of faringeal but l have 0 issues with Jacob’s vocal choices.
I never new he was criticized for anything.
People often refer to him as the 'singing vicar' for the reasons mentioned in this video.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger "People"? "Often"? Lol
Any art form can be broken apart and critically analyzed (look at Taylor swift and cardi b.) Breaking “fundamental” rules causes this thinking.
Knew
@@randydominguezmusic These "fundamental rules" are more of a result of popular culture, and western music standards. I definitely hope to see more acceptance for other cultural music styles
Jacob collier is so “eclectic” that he sounds 100% bland
I have been an immense fan of Jacob's music for years now, and I'll defend him, his wisdom and his creativity until the day I die. However, this guy truly knows what he's talking about or he wouldn't be making this video. I agree wholeheartedly that Jacob's vocal performances (especially in live settings) and sometimes even his lyrics could use a bit more work, but I think that Jacob's fanbase are more interested in the musical DNA/groove/melody/harmony of his songs rather than their vocal performances. I think Jacob might even be aware of this, which is why he has so many talented vocalists as features on his latest tracks!
Thanks dude, you're being very humble to say this.
I'll be honest, I don't have the ear but your probably right. And I totally agree. I'd consider Jacob as much a composer as i would a musician.
This 👆🏿 👆🏿
I'm surprised this is the only video on TH-cam actually critiquing Jacob's vocals. The guy is an out of this world musician for sure, no two ways about it. But I think his most common problem is emotional connection, and this is most evident in his voice.
Musicians (myself included) have a real issue with music snobbery, and forget that music is communication on an emotional level first, and an intellectual level second. Musicians might appreciate Jacob's music cerebrally, whereas most everyone feels something emotionally primal when listening to gospel or classic rock/pop vocal performances. Why? Because there's a fundamental, universal connection to the lyrics and sound that Jacob just doesn't have. He's a middle class guy from a family of musicians, his life experience is neither interesting nor relatable.
Again, let me reiterate - he is a phenomenal musician, the music world is better off for his contributions. The way he talks about music makes me think that he wants to convey emotions in the way I described. But right now, unless you 'understand' musically what he's doing, his stuff will leave you cold.
But what do I know, I don't have 2 Grammys 😂
Wow this comment is amazing, you are correct emotion in singing comes from finesse and ease, without these ingredients a singer won't connect. I know this because I'm a singer like Jacob who struggles to draw an audience in for the same reasons he does.
I hear the emotional connection in the passion and joy he has for the overall project, and how much fun he seems to be having doing it. I just realised thanks to your comment that normally I would be with you on needing to hear an emotional connection to lyrics, etc, I'm a singer and to me lyrics and connection are so important, but it weirdly doesn't matter to me in his stuff. I think i feel the buzz of energy off of the whole thing first and resonate with his love of creative flow. It will be interesting to see if any of the things you mention come in later in life after he has had more experience just living. Interesting take , though, it made me think about what I listen to - appreciate your thoughts :-)
@@carybiem4554 thank you!
Jacob has 4 Grammys
hm. thanks for phrasing my opinion so good. i just have listened Cranberries Tiny desk concert. I could cry on Dolores voice while Jacobs is like sterile. Not even comparable in a million years.
I'm a huge Jacob Collier fan but I still don't get the people who disliked the video
Many thanks :)
I guess people think this is pointless with all due respect.
WHy the fuck not? You make music, you publish it publicly, you're going to be met with criticism whether good or bad. It happens to every artist. Why not Jacob? Is he just so holier than thou that he doesn't deserve any criticism? He's just a fucking god? LOL@@BecomingANaturalSinger
I feel as though a large part of the reason Jacob sings the way he does is because of the nature of his arrangements. His voice sounds kind of like a sine wave to me. All sound is fundamentally sine waves that are altered by the different overtones and harmonics it has. Thats what makes voices sound different from other voices and other instruments etc. His arrangements and songs have hundreds of his own voice stacked on top and if he were to sing with more overtones it would get incredibly muddy. That’s what happens if you stack JUST your own voice. Thats why the muddiness doesn’t happen with choirs cause everyone has a different voice. I think thats why he leans towards that sine wavish and pure tone verses most singer because his music demands that. Also I think his perfect pitch also plays a role in his style of singing
More clutter = less overtones and a duller sound overall. Outside of Jacob, this is an issue not talked about enough or well understood by many.
Very informative, coincidentally I'm a big fan of both Collier and McFerrin and now I really notice the disparity in the richness of their voices. Jacob has said in interviews that he pays attention to the "breathiness" of his voice when singing and recording harmony but I think when he's singing melody it's evident he defaults back dampening the overtones. I wish he could see this.
Bobby is a real singer, Jacob is a learning, the trouble is playing 50 instruments has a cost.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger agree 100%. You can’t compare a real voice as Mc Ferrin with a fake voice
Ain't nothing fake about Jacob's voice. For crying out loud, all of us have a unique voice, and just because I can't sing exactly like Michael Buble, doesn't make my voice fake, it makes it unique and different.
It's so annoying ...like the dude is a genius ..probably the best mind in music right now ...but there's no way u can tell me that u don't notice that his voice is weird n can actually although very rarely sound rather offputing ...the fan base is annoying imagine if his voice was just a little better n to be fair ..I would say his voice has gotten better over the years but he already has the range if he could just improve his technique ..the harmonies would sound much better.....I mean even Bruno Mars can get better at singing ...but considering how young he is the fan base can't just encourage him to get better ..all they see is a GOD
Or maybe I like his voice now. He could learn to sing like the greats before him I'm sure but for me that would kill the reason I like him
Real hard not to sound like a snob when you criticize him lol
I don't especially LIKE his voice, but that's not really the point! The uniqueness of his voice is his USP. How do you measure 'uniqueness'? One way, is his commercial success; so, I guess, we'll see.
Learned a lot from this video thanks! It’s funny you mention this, in real life, most people I know including musicians and students are very critical of jacob’s music, then I come online and it’s hard to find a bad word about him. Very broadly, a common criticism is that his music is interesting but not that enjoyable.
I don't know. When I hear Jacob, I don't really hear anything wrong with his voice. I actually find it very calming and warm. I don't understand the dislikes though, what the heck.
I really don't like his voice. To me he sounds like someone doing vocal warm-ups two rooms across from where I am. Just blurry background jibberish.
Think outside of yourself
My criticism of him is more specific. There was a collab video he did with a bunch of people, many other voices, which started out very interesting. But less than 30 seconds in, it was ALL Jacob's cloned heads singing the harmonies. Dozens of Jacobs, no one else - all the original collab voices disappeared, and the rest of the video was just him. This was not a celebration of everyone else's voices - it was a replacement of everyone else with himself. That turned me off completely from his content. It just felt like "I'm better than everyone else, here's more of me!".
Man enjoy the music and dont try to understand a genious like Jacob. He is a free man. His music give me what I need. I feel free too when I listen and play to his music.
He is the most natural and delightful artist. I totally adore his singing. It's not good or bad. It is just delicious to my ear.
So it's good? 😂
@@TheRealBrandonMcDuff no, it's human and the harmonies he composes are no doubt the delicious part
In my opinion...
It is not a complicated issue at all. It's actually veeeery simple. He is very breathy. He needs to develop his chestvoice both in terms of core and depth. His voice is very atrophied because of singing so breathy all the time.
You’re right in all your points but as a fan of his I don’t really care. I’m gonna like his music whether or not he is singing properly. His stuff inspires me to practice and write and I find it all quite beautiful. Awesome video tho. Just subscribed
I really like your video, because you are generally right about that topic. However, I have one problem with your argumentation considering the soft pallet. I am a classical singer and you are right that your singing voice should start in a natural, neutral position. But a raised soft pallet does NOT take away the overtones. Especially when going to the high register it is so important to relax the larynx and to lift the soft pallet. This may be not the pop way, but if you have ever listend to good classical singing, doesn’t matter wether it is opera, oratory or Lied you will notice that all those singers sing very loud because they have a voice very rich, full of overtones. They achieve that because they raise their pallet(among other things). You will lose overtones, if you don’t connect your voice to your body, if you don’t support it properly. And this is not just me saying it. This is technical knowledge that has endured since the 1600’s probably even earlier! Classical singing needed a technique that creates the most possible overtones in every register because there haven’t always been microphones, to be heard over an orchestra. I don’t mean to criticize you, I just wanted to make clear, that a raised soft pallet it is not only possible, but actually the most healthy and effective way to create overtones in your voice. You need to do it right of course.
thanks for the feedback.
Lukas B this sounds like a wiki response and basically just hot air.
Anthony Walker Don’t think so. could you be more concrete what you think is „hot air“ about this. I said certain points where where I have a different opinion. Right now you are just saying some very empty, not constructive criticism, without any explanation why you think so. Maybe you fill your response with some meaning, argumentation and... well POINTS 😂. because right now you just sound like a teenager who wants to troll.
You know how I know you're a teenager? Bc you typed outa paragraph in defense it seems. I'm not wasting more time on this than I already have. Have a good day. You need to do it right of course.
Anthony Walker yup! Definitely a troll teenager! Good day for you too, I will do it right of course. :)
I haven’t seen anyone say this yet, but he has talked about how he did some operas as a kid and that was how he was trained to sing, so that might have something to do with his singing. Idrk much about what that entails, it might be inconsequential to how he sings now. I personally like his voice though. I think it goes well with his style.
Yep, bad coaching is worse than no coaching at all.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger I will say I think it’s pretty clear that he’s a bass singer and I think he sings the way he does so it sounds a bit lighter and gentler and to sing songs that usually are bit out of the bass range. I’m a pretty low alto and to sing higher more classical songs I’ve been taught to raise the soft palette.
I think Jacob is a genius but I don’t have a problem with him, I have a problem that people unconditionally praise him for every small thing he does just because he has been touted as a musical genius, people who are also not musicians and not music theorists praise him even more because what he says about music is absolutely beyond them because they don’t understand the fundamentals of music
Indeed people get to caught up in the hype, become emotionally involved and can no longer look at their heroes objectively.
It just feels like something cold and clinical written by a nerd sitting in a cold basement. Like yeah dude is probably a musical theory genius, but not a creative or soulful, or even tasteful one lol.
My opinion of Jacob is he’s got a TREMENDOUS amount of Talent, energy and passion for music. He’s capable to play an incredible range of genres and instruments at a near genius level. He has an exceptional ear and periphery of sound and VISION. That said, he IMHO doesn’t have an exceptional voice. Even so, he does a great job with the voice he does have and I imagine has worked hard to improve it. I mean if the WORST thing you could say about a guy is his voice isn’t impressive- that’s not too bad considering all the incredible gifts he DOES have🤔
Indeed, we are splitting hairs with this gifted god of music.
Becoming a Natural Singer ps I’m a little jealous of anyone whose lucky enough to have a mother that is as capable and. LOVING as his mother CLEARLY IS.
The one thing I don't like about when certain music people blow up or gain any little bit of popularity online is that they become like a cult of personality and they get this cult-like following that believes that their person is perfect . Of course we all are guilty of this with certain people. Mine would definitely be Beyonce but like at a certain point you have to step back and realize that these people and their talents are not omnipotent and that they are not Exempt of fault or criticism Or being able to improve in some way because no one Is and no one is perfect
So true.
He is really fun to watch break down music however I just don't like his music. It's not because I'm a noRmiE wHo onLy likEs 4/4 sOngS wiTh 4 chOrds, it's just because his music doesn't sound good in my opinion. I know that this is gonna get a lot of hate so if you're gonna reply to me try to be constructive to the conversation and not just make baseless assumptions.
You're right, trust those instincts they are there for a reason.
Hey man I totally get it, at first I didn't really like Jacob's music either (I was just fascinated by his acapella covers) but through repeated exposure and getting to know him as a person I am now a die-hard fan. If you're not opposed to trying to open yourself up to his music, I recommend listening to two of his more recent tracks, "All I Need" and "Time Alone with You" - they're much less show-off-y and less technically complex. They're also much easier to wrap your head around and, hell, even dance to.
@@matteyles3814 Jacob is amazing, no doubt about it.
I think it's similar to most very out there styles, where if you take the time to just deep dive into it and listen over and over you'll be able to appreciate it.. but more than appreciate it, you'll start to LOVE it. I felt the same listening to many other artists, it sometimes just takes a minute to learn the language of how they speak.
It's understandable if you don't want to take the time listening to music you don't like, but I'd recommend that you do still.. Cause it's worth it.
His new album is something completely new. Some of the songs are super simple with brilliant melodies and beautiful lyricism. He's shown so much restraint for a guy with that many ideas haha. The 2nd track is kinda wack though
I'm not a vocal tutor but actually in the beginning there was always something bugging me with Jacob's voice. I suppose now it grew on me now and although I think what you're saying might be true (again, I'm missing some key knowledge about accents and vocal technique) and actually as I said myself it took me a while to get used to it, I can make 2 points for me:
1) if you compare his singing with 5-6 years ago he has improved vastly and maybe his tone didn't change a lot, but his delivery has matured. A LOT! He's a good story teller and this is something that isn't really easily taught. He know how to take you in a journey. This is where passion/talent/hard-hard-hard work kicks in. Which brings me to my second point
2) I don't want him to change tbh. I'm now comfortable with it and I know he is too. I know he can and will improve more but I don't think a conversation about his technique is gonna salvage the situation.
No one is perfect and J, as all of us, has indeed his flaws. But, he does everything so naturally and I don't want this element to disappear. If the sacrifice is a couple people finding his voice dull I'm sure he can take the hit 😂
you make some great points here
It just feels like something cold and clinical written by a nerd sitting in a cold basement. Like yeah dude is probably a musical theory genius, but not a creative or soulful, or even tasteful one lol.
@@Anewevisual It's not surprising that someone would think that but clearly you don't know his process or have seen him live (by the way he constantly does live streams etc so it's no secret how soulful and creative he is). I have no reason to "take sides" or anything but it's just so silly to call JC not creative or tasteful. By any standars he is those things.
Fascinating video. I’m a choir teacher and studied classical singing for many years, still do in fact. I’ve learned that although singers may not necessarily sing flat, the lack of overtones causes the pitch to be less defined. This comes across as flat to well trained ears.
hey dude, yeah this stuff is probably uncommon knowledge in a sense but it's very real, peace 👍🏻
I totally understand why people dislike his voice, but I really like it. I prefer singers who don't "oversell" it if you know what I'm getting at it .
Great video, but some comments you're having to deal with holy jesus... I'd say that Jacob's biggest problem is his fan base, this is some cult level stuff going on
Hah, yes. I was very kind to Jacob and still get a lot of hate for it.
It’s because he won some Grammys and they think if they say they like him it somehow makes them understand his music and music in general better than the rest of the world. For me he ruins most of the songs he covers...
I don't think this is really in Jacob's control but it's still disappointing to see it happening.
I completely agree, you can not argue with the disciples. It is more like a cult to them so there is no point on saying ANYTHING contrary to their rules. This to me is not being open to criticism.
Chlorine Lori that's a spicy take phaha. Andyeah I feel like his cult-like super fans were getting out of bed doing their daily Jacob Collier youtube search to listen to his entire discography again and they saw this video and it ruined their day. I think he said it pretty well actually.
I am very much into music and play a few instruments and I am interested in theory and experiments.Jacob interests me in that sense, but yes, when I hear his voice I don't connect to it, and your explanation here sounds reasonable. I would guess that you are right to a great extent. Then whether this is how Jacob wants it to be or not, I of course don't know. It certainly could be that he wants to do it this way, that he wants to use his voice in this particular way.
If he could sing without the clutter he would do, he's an amazing artist regardless.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger I didn't get the impression we were talking about clutter here, but rather the lack of overtones in his voice, or?
I feel like this is when you type a letter on your phone then click the auto type words above the keyboard until you have a paragraph
I don't know if you can really argue that his voice is bad in any way. He has incredible pitch, a lovely vibrato, and great flexibility. This shift you're speaking of, if anything, would only increase the range of vocal textures available to him. The way he sings is not inherently wrong and to claim that it's the one thing keeping him from being a musical legend is preposterous. Many legendary composers gained their status without a singing voice at all. While I agree that his voice could improve, and that it would be a valuable improvement, I don't believe his voice is the sole thing keeping him from connecting to audiences.
The biggest difference between Jacob Collier and a decent pop singer-songwriter is the style of music. I think most people who don't connect with Jacob's music simply don't enjoy his complex, unfamiliar style. But that style is also his appeal; there's a reason a large majority of his audience are musicians.
TL DR: Jacob's already a great singer and his music is perfect for his audience so it's not THAT big of a deal for him to change his voice.
One other thing to keep in mind, since you (Carl John)made the comparison to Bobby McFerrin, is that McFerrin's first album didn't come out until he was 32. Jacob is 25. Give things time; he has already covered a huge amount of ground musically in his relatively short life.
@@jwinder2 great point.
I see where you're coming from, many thanks.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger My other reply might have been a bit harsh, but as a musician that has played in many different genres, I find Jacob's command of musical ideas to be utterly amazing in the way he uses and combines style, and his harmonic command is superlative, and while he may not be the equal of the very best pianists, guitarists, bassists, etc., he has enough command to realize what he is setting out to do, which is no small feat at the level of arranging he is working at. His use of his voice is also quite amazing in his keen ear for harmonization, and in the broad way that he utilizes it through such a vast range of musical language. Do I hope that he develops his vocal technique more as he matures, and develops more color and focus? Of course; but let's not get too wrapped up in this single facet of this and remember that he is a 25 year old that is still growing musically with each passing year.
He actually goes out of tune quite a bit. Or his pitch isn’t clearly defined.
Thanks for initiating such an interesting topic. You know, someday it might not at all be a terrible idea for him to follow the course you prescribe. It would just be another tool in his insanely large toolbox. But first thing, most of the singing he does is with stacked, ultra rich choral voicings. To introduce buzzy tone to this would ruin most of that work. Not to mention render his microtonal work muddy and problematic. I can't imagine In The Bleak Midwinter or Moon River sung in the way you prescribe, it would be awful. Ditto for most of his masterpieces. He'd have to flip to your way of singing for solos, then flip back for the harmony work. Not impossible, but a bit Jeckl & Hyde... I just don't think he is interested. When he wants a rich voice he simply collaborates, Djesse albums are filled with the kind of singing you like, just with guest artists. I'm sure this will continue. I think the people who love him the most, like me, and who easily accept the upper class choir boy affectation, are the ones that see his work through the prism of just being interested in the music in Jacob's head. All these things, piano, bass, drums, voice, studio magic, etc, are really just conduits for the real juice, which is the ideas. Musical and conceptual. He has a peerless mind for musical construction, and executing those ideas with deep feeling and endless variety. That's the Jacob I have learned to love, and the fact that his tone is thin just shrivels to insignificance because it is not really what I am listening to. I'm listening to the historically original ideas.
You make some great points here and yes for much of the recording he does his voice serves him very well.
Yes, thank you! I agree a hundred percent. A pleasure to read that fans can care about the feelings he puts into his music instead of only listening to the technical skills like unfortunately most people. Jacob is a storyteller and that's why I connect so much to his music and to him as an artist and human being.
You said it perfectly! I already commented about how he leans more towards a sine wave tone so his massive vocal stacks wouldn’t be muddy with all those clashing buzzes. I wish I saw this before I commented lol.
Only one space goes after a period.
His harmonies (excluding some of the “just” & microtonals) are 99% based on Take 6. They not only worked with Stevie but are using the same jazz/gospel ideas with more extensions.
I think their influence is overlooked. Would love JC to co-arrange an album with them.
Also I think he should get into more Man Tran (offbeat of avenues/Brazil) harmony. To me, it would suit his vibe much more.
I maybe get an answer here. When I first listen the duo Jamie Cullum, and Jocob Collier, it was so obvious that Jamie Cullum voice was much better, and emotional. I feel like something more deep in his voice. So that is maybe the explanation !
I know that as a child he was classically trained singing-wise he sang in operas, I remember him talking about it. So I wonder if it's not something he chose to do consciously to sound different. Because I'm guessing if he took singing lessons someone told him about the sound of his voice. Although it can be off putting at first due to the nature of the unusually nature of the character of his singing.
My view is that it's the result of the poor instruction, without lessons or instruction he wouldn't have the clutter that inhibits his ability to connect.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger It would be really interesting to have Jacob's take on this matter. Because I'm guessing that hanging with Quincy Jones and all of his legendary friends a few of them must have pointed out his unusual vocal style (which I absolutely love, I personally really do connect with him).
Only discovered him yesterday but although blown away by his amazing musical prowess I too agree his voice lacks tonal resonance, I put it down to his failure to adopt an American accent, which much simpler put is I guess what you're saying, hence why we often find a American lilt so attractive in singing
I think that everyone has a different opinion of what makes a good singer. For many people the ability to use a voice to communicate whatever idea they have in their mind and feel completely free to do that is what makes them a great singer. Some people might value technical prowess the most highly; placement, resonation, control etc, and if you can do all of those things best you win. Or it might be all about conveying emotion through lyrics. For others they think that original tone rates more than those other factors, and if they can recognise an artist distinctly out of the masses of other voices out there they consider that the best. I was trying to figure out what was really bothering me about this reaction - I had to sit with it for awhile - and I guess part of it is people arguing about their opinions of what they value most and really believing they are more right than others without allowing multiple realities to exist and be okay with that. I was reading all of these comments and thinking, yup, sure, if that's where you are coming from, you are right. But so is he...and she...and people hate seeing people they love criticised....and want to criticise back, it's a base human instinct.....I looove Jacob because of his freedom to be himself and vulnerability in putting himself out there so fearlessly while being an imperfect/perfect genius. I found myself even getting squirrely and wanting to bite back at you while listening to your video because i am such an imperfect singer and I would really fear a criticism of myself done like this. But after I got past this I could hear the technical things you were saying. And once I settled my gut response I realised my highest opinion is that his imperfections don't need to be "fixed" unless he desires so. If not it really, really doesn't matter. From what I have seen young Mr. Collier seems really happy and relaxed being who he is being and doing what he is doing - much more than I ever was in my creative space when I was that age. Crikey! I guess I think that is the most important thing about being a singer, or artist, really, is enjoying yourself being art, or in his case, being the music. Phew - lucky, that! Well that was a late night rant but healing for me....
Great thoughts, many thanks.
Jacob collier is unique however his voice may not appeal to some but when he sings his voice is sufficiently his own not to sound like everyone else. that after all is what any singer wan ts
Jacob makes music, not for his audience to enjoy, but for himself. He does not even want to become one of the top 40 artists. Listen to the podcast: This must be the gig. He explains his choices very well and he especially explains what he stands for. Music is in his blood and the joy is the most important part. Having it as a career is a huge bonus. So, if you like it that's great, if you don't, also fine. He is a storyteller and connects with music in ways I have never seen, happen before. If his voice doesn't touch you, his story definitely will if you are eager enough to listen closer.
If he’s not making music for his audience to enjoy, why is he making albums and doing live concerts, and posting multiple videos of himself online? Of course he’s doing it for his audience.
@@jazzyjake99 I mean it's not made to the audiences taste. It's made for his own taste and people like his music too so he accidentally became a musician/artist as a career. He even said that if he wasn't acknowledged for his music, he would still be making music because he still would have these ideas in his head.
I'm splitting hairs here, his music is great regardless.
Eline May Yeah, and I guess he just accidentally went to the trouble of editing numerous videos overdubbing himself with all the effects, just for himself. I guess he just accidentally had MIT engineers design a one man concert for him to perform for audiences. I guess he just accidentally submitted and promoted his music for Grammy review, so he could win awards for fame.
If you think that’s all by accident, you’re delusional.
@@jazzyjake99 Well that came with the music career.
He'd still be in his room, jamming out if things didn't go his way.
The information and the presentation of it absoLUTELY clicks and (here we go) resonates with me, I’m a huge vocal nerd and the way you speak about it got an INSTANT subscriber
Nice one Derek, welcome.
I also think that Colliers type of music creates a division already and enjoying his voice is just a part of enjoying his composition. I mean look at Dirty Loops, they had insane arrangements AND a vocalist that was appealing but are nowhere NEAR as famous as Collier. I think you just have to accept that when you add THIS much theory, there will be a distance from the listener and the composer already. Like Mozart even to this day is way more appealing than somebody like Tchaikovsky, and it's because simplicity will sell more.
Great comment.
voice is just another instrument that if you are a broad musician you cant be so focused in that kind of perfection. It is his expression of voice. If you come to Brazil for example and listen tha best brasilian musicians like Tom Jobim, and many others from bossa nova and samba, it is quite normal to find artists that has their own way of singing and not always tuned or in perfect way like a professional singer.
The overtones, the altered position, the palate, it all makes sense, and resonated with an intuitive dislike for his music I couldn't quite grasp. Your explanation is convincing and cuts clearly like a laser through ice. It's also, as you said, not a criticism of Jacob Collier as an artist, just a criticism of his manieristic way of singing. His fans will argue that this particular altered voice just happens to be his means to reach an individualistic form of self-expression, like other singers with "weird" voices (Joanna Newsom, Devendra Benhart, even Bowie) have done; all of those singers have a lot of lovers and haters. I think this interpretation is open for debate, but I just don't "feel" it.
cheers, great comment :)
I actually think he's coming from a recording background where he is used to stacking his voices in 8-10-15 tone harmonies and producing extremely complex chords that way.
I guess not having or developing his solo vocal technique to great extend was the price he was willing to pay at some point consciously or subconsciously to achieve the desired voice-stacking 100 vocal track harmonies he was able to achieve and win Grammys for (Moon River, The Flintstones, etc).
But I think he's began developing his vocal technique recently, you can hear him sing live using his vocal mix, and singing high notes with power. Ofcourse, no exuberant thrills or timbre changes yet. But I think it's a matter of time. I think he's aware.
It's this, but another important point about stacking the vocals is that he DOESN'T WANT overtones. He already EQs and filter the vocal stacks heavily, so dealing with rich overtones would make it an unwieldy mess (and some would argue that it already IS).
Lyrics. That's always the weakness. If you land in the pocket where it's honest enough to feel true, simple enough to be relatable to lots of people, and smart enough to hold up to repeat listening... then you got something, and the voice is still important, but it becomes secondary. Look at Steve Balsamo-incredible, beautiful voice, great melodies... can't remember a lyric of his.
Your spot on about Colliers voice, also posh English accents don't work well vocally outside of operetta . I have to say his music leaves me cold although, yes, he's skilled obviously. And why is he always covering such great songs.? Wouldn't it be better to cover less well known material and make something interesting of it?
I really enjoy him talking about music and explaining things, but was surprised to find hie music the opposite; really boring... which made me think, a lot of good music and att is made from suffering and struggle.... and /or having something meaningful to say.about the human condition, however limited the range of their intentions.... which seems making from his lovely life (not wishing any suffering on him, but maybe his lane is educating and academic rather than artist)
It was interesting to hear your professional explanation of how the mechanics of singing create the sound that creates that lack of resonance with the listener.
I love Jacob but agree with your point. He's not using his natural voice and would sound better if he would.
Different ≠ wrong
No inefficient and cluttered = people get bored.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger And that's why he's a successful vocalist...?
@@RaoulGordon bahaha, lil wayne is more successful then, you idiot. Such a Collier groupie.
hurt?
He'sna mediocre vocalist. No professional musician is worshipping him as a successful vocalist@@RaoulGordon
Interesting theory, I have also had issues connecting with Jacob's voice and you may have verbalised what I couldn't. His vocals sound almost insincere to my ears.
Precisly and the reasons I am talking about are exactly why.
Exactly! Couldnt agree more
I get some of the points that you made. However, you should mention that this only applies to his "lead vocals". His way of singing harmony and blending all the notes in the chords (different timbre, distance from microphone, number of voices per note, etc.) is just incredible. He's not just a singer but creates entire songs with his voice. He 's got the ability to use his voice as different instruments and to serve different functions in a song that otherwise would need synthesizers, acoustic instruments, background singers, etc. By the way, he demonstrated using his voice more like the mainstream pop singers many times in his masterclasses, I think he just makes a musical choice not to sound like them. For myself, I can actually connect very well with his style of singing.
great comment many thanks.
what i like about jacob singing is that he just seems to care about reaching the note, he doesn't care much how, and honestly neither do i, sounds good looks good and works for him.
I agree that he's really technically talented. He's just too much.
Interesting what you said about the "soft palette". That really helps me do a better impression haha, i have a regional Scottish accent. Good luck with the channel.
Thanks for sharing!!
Agreed. I've noticed exactly that.
Criticizing an over-the-horizon singer/musician/performer for his crisp clear voice - which clearly got professional attention and proper training - is a very slippy slope. Fantasizing about "fixing" his voice is not helping a bit. I am quiet confident that Jacob Collier is actively seeking to thrive and will consult whom ever he respects to improve in whatever instrument he chooses. I would delete this video. It is hitting back at you.
for all his incredible virtuosity and technical ability, his music doesn't come from his heart and has a sterile and showoff quality.. I would much rather listen to someone with far less musical chops but whose music is informed by their life experience and soul. There are many electronic musicians for instance who can barely play the keyboard but whose music is nevertheless beautiful and inspired. He seems like a person who hasn't had much pain in his life to draw from and just lacks the grit of a true artist.
It would connect more if he could sing with more freedom.
An artist earns from his fans and learns from his critics.
I appreciate his particular vocal sound in the various styles of music he makes. I don't think he should lose that. However, I think he would greatly benefit from taking time to really develop the particular sound of voice being described here. It would certainly be to his advantage to devote some focus on leveraging the one instrument that connects most with an audience.
Aside from that, to there's no denying the brilliance of his musical genius and of his elaborate compositions.
Literally he could be the GOAT if he spent a year or two working with Shelby Rollins.
I think people are sick of his generation trying to place him above the real greats .I heard him doing Somebody to love , By Queen , and a real singer Freddie Mercury. His version was awful , no soul to it . I can't sing , but I have good ears .
I never heard criticism towards him but I have noticed that exact problem but I didn't know the full explanation. Still think that he utilised that as a feature insead of a bug.
Just gave this dude red pill haha. This is reality
I came to this video because I was listening to a singer I had never heard before and thought "dayum that guy has a pretty singing voice" ...and then binged all his videos and came to wonder what it was I liked so much about his voice and what made it sound so good enough to get me so excited about it, because i usually care more about the song as a whole rather than just a pretty voice, from there ended up listening to a bunch of posts by vocal coaches just out of curiosity even though I have no aspiration to be a singer.. from there, I saw a lot of posts on my feed about Bridge Over Trouble Water....got curious about this jacob collier person...binged all the videos i could find about him...found him really interesting and really love a lot of his music, absolutely adore him as an artist and a person...but wondering why, although i hate to admit it...sometimes his voice makes me cringe. I have come full circle.
Problem with Jacob is he’s just copy pasting complex music theory into action. He’s not doing something innovative with all the theory he knows. Oh and he’s an awful songwriter. He has lots of talent tho, but should get WAY more creative and take songwriting classes.
He'd do well to sit down with someone like Ryan Adam's for a few weeks to get him back to basics and what's important in song writing.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger Agreed, it’d help him a lot!
Yeah he kind of does this thing where instead of sitting down to *write* a Songz he kinda just copy-pastes a hundred layers till it's just kind of slop and then says it's done. He doesn't have the "musician's tact" that a songwriter needs. Being a writer is about organizing notes, and when one can't do that they find ways to make it appear like they can and he does it through adding way too many things.
For me it is his constant attempt to try to impress with his abilities but it lacks emotion and sincerity
But the voice *is* Collier's original main "instrument": He started off singing in the opera as a young child, and first became famous for doing a-Capella arrangements on TH-cam.
Indeed he's a good example of the cost of bad information.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger Not sure I understand your reply. And by the way, I find his singing to be pretty good.
The problem with Jacob Collier is the lack of artistic talent. music theory on its own doesn't have any value within the context of culture.
This is a great video. Spot on! That plummy accent really comes through in his singing for sure. This bloke’s accent’s quite a lot like mine. Mate you from Herts?
"You'll notice a fair amount of negative comments in the comments"
Lol about less than 1% of the comments in Collier's videos are critical of him
Indeed, many times the majority are wrong.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger yeah dude, many times. But in this case, they're not.
And if you're not happy with the "majority", then take the words of the members of Take 6 regarding how good a singer Jacob Collier is. Anyone who can stand at the helm of Take Six and lead them in a rendition of You and I by Stevie Wonder and hit those crazy riffs, perfect falsetto and key changes is a ridiculously good singer regardless of if they conform to your notions of propper technique. Don't be bitter because you can't do what he can, be better. I'm sure there's shit you can do that he can't. But if we're gonna skip on what the majority think, let's take the word of Snarky Puppy, Take 6, Steve Vai, Jules Buckley and Quincy Motherfucking Jones lol
I think it´s unnecessary to track someone down just to criticize them. Obviously his fans (me included) are going to say positive things about him. THAT IS THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF BEING A FAN, you like his music. Of course it isn´t for everyone but so be it, let us enjoy it.
I can tell you I've seen comment sections with a vast majority negative comments towards his voice. They came from people who weren't fans and were hearing his music for the first time. That doesn't happen a lot anymore, but it used to when he was first coming on to the scene. His fanbase is now well established, and it's primarily made up of trained musicians who experience his music differently to other people. I think it's fair to examine why some people don't like his voice as long as it comes with the understanding he doesn't necessarily need to cater to them.
Always felt weird about his music despiste liking it. Never thought about this particular reason, but makes sense!
cheers!
i agree, ive always thought his voice is his achilles heel. ye its extremely on pitch, but its not really that pleasant. imagine someone with a beautiful voice AND jacob's composing. would truly be the sound of heaven. guess that's what moon river was for
Indeed it's a sad reality because with a great voice he would be the GOAT.
I learned a heck of alot of how Jacob sets his voice to sing, and great info throughout the video. I feel alot of his "disposition" from singing has resulted from the vast amount of genres he puts himself through. I feel his voice settles well with acoustic ballads such as "Rest your weary head". I say he's well on his way to raising the bar of standards due to his vast musicianship in other areas.
I am an opera singer and i totally agree with you. The thing with opera singing is your vocal life depends on natural voice placement. Even though some accomplished singers do start the change their sound a bit, the foundation is there. Jacob sounds extremely artificial and for me its hard to listen to. I do feel that some of it also translates to his composition and general playing.
This topic has really split the like/dislikes so must be relevant. I love Jacob Collier. When I first heard PYT I thought, wow! Take 6, D’Angelo, Dilla, Herbie! All my faves. Take 6 are not only all virtuosos but the different textures and timbres create dimension. This can’t be done with one voice. Plus, they are all American and sing with US soul accents, not Leafy London ones. Id love to hear more instrumental from Jacob. He is an incredible talent!
Americans have access to better vocal training / culture. On average singers from there tend to be of a higher skill level, Jacob is great.
My big complaint is that he stacks his own vocals instead of trying to create an ensemble with an ensemble sound, which I just think would be tops. I know he has explored some group vocals, and that the challenges of getting multiple voices together are many, but wow what a missed opportunity imo and one of the reasons why people read a “soulless” or “flatness” into his music. That’s one of my hot takes.
Great video - I do like Jacob but his vocals have always stood out to me for the wrong reasons. To me, hearing him sing, it always sounds like he's taking the p*ss, as though he's doing a mocking impression of someone singing, I'm forever waiting for him to drop the act and start singing for real. Despite that, I rate him very very highly as a musician overall.
Now this is a great comment and accurate.
There are a lot of famous singers who are not good singers but made millions and so will Jacob. He is passionate about music which includes vocals. You hear the passion when he sings. The more you listen to him the more you hear it which makes him a good singer.
Not actually true, I would say 99% of famous singers have very very good technique, Jacob is the exception not the rule.
It’s overproduction and the striving for “perfection” which all seems really inauthentic. You listen to like, The Glow Pt 2, which is all a lesson in authenticity and the simpleness and imperfection that gives people emotion. While it seems like Jacob Collier had a great idea, then he tacks another idea and another idea until it doesn’t even resemble the original idea. Along with really clean voice recording, which is impressive technically, but feels fake. When you sing everything like you are in a mega church, it’s hard to feel like this isn’t just to please an audience and not to please yourself, make art to show your feelings, not make art as a competition for who is the most talented. Because Jacob and like Charlie Puth would beat a lot of people that are considered some of the greatest musicians
For me the vocal is the least interesting part of most any music. His voice is pretty interesting tonally. He is a musician not a singer which for me is a good thing. I dont see this as a problem. Melody is king.
The vocal is king, no other instrument comes close.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger Elvis is king. Haha couldn't resist. But really, personally for me, 90% of vocals (and vocalists) I could happily do without. And the ones I like tend to have a very unique, personal, raw sound, not a refined. For me, composition, arrangement, groove, harmony, and texture are all more king for me than vocals. I guess we're all entitled to our preferences.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger very subjective statement bruh..
I appreciate Jacob’s skills, but i simply do not enjoy his singing voice.
Maybe it's the 19 vocal harmony of fucking Flinstones singing from tonsils.
Jacob can sound a bit like he has a cleft palate
Firstly, I can understand not liking his singing voice. I used to not. But now I love it. One of the reasons he sings the way he does is because of his songwriting style! Because he is layering SO MANY tracks, he is using a flatter tone so that he can be harmonically more dense with less clashing overtones. This is part of the “issue” for when he needs to sing solo. He has practiced so much of this round tone, that he has no “bite” in his sound. I think that it is less of a problem and more of an artistic choice. It’s like Nirvana. Not everyone liked the sound. But that was NOT the point. It was to make the music that they wanted to make. And with the sound that they wanted to use. In addition, I think it’s obvious that he wants to have this sound because he can hit microtonal notes to such an accurate degree, that clearly he could put in the vocal work if he so chose.
Kurt was a vastly better singer.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger Kurt Cobain better singer than Jacob collier?
@@abrahamromanmolinos9274 Yes much better.
@@BecomingANaturalSinger could you explain me why? Jacob collier sings more in tune and has a wider range. Kurt Cobain is often off key
The funny thing is, Collier’s singing is actually the result of proper theory and exercise. He applies the basics of theatrical delivery and voice acting to singing, and used his voice akin to an instrument. It’s evident in how his lips move, as if he takes a lot of effort to pronounce more than regular. From where I’m looking, his voice has almost everything right; the depth, the vibrato, and questionably, everything that you said it’s not: rich and full of personality. I feel like it’s the visual aspect of it people don’t like primarily, and then you might pick on how unnerving and sometimes synthesised the a capella recording style sounds. Djesse Vol. 2 especially has tons of beautiful singing in it, from the simplicity of Make Me Cry to the adventure in Sky Above. I would even go out on a limb and say I find it extremely attractive.
I would’ve understood if this was simply a technical criticism, but I find myself absolutely disagreeing with the statement you make, that his singing would make him less of a generational talent. I’m sorry, but that sounded completely absurd. I don’t need to preach about his achievements or his age or the circle of people that venerate him and are pushing and propelling him to become a household sensation. Eventually we will all go to church!
Most people agree with you, the majority are wrong on this one.
I agree with you.
I can’t really enjoy Jacob Collier. Mainly because there is already so much music that already fills that Niche for me. Hellfire by Black MIDI, Yellow House by Grizzly Bear, Fatigue by L’rain. I could go on. But they all use weird (and some normal) harmony but in new contexts that feels much more fresh and interesting, even if technically it’s not as harmonically dense.
U shared that so elegantly & respectfully!!!! I love Jacob & have seen some of your vids..... this one made me subscribe! U were humble, pure hearted & I feel guided by GOD to make an already awesome Jacob transcend to another level if he takes your advice! I’ve been done n TH-cam since they started this channel & I’ve never heard any human deliver a message as well as u did this one!!! GOD bless u!!!! U r a giant in my eyes! That took real courage!!! Love u!!!! PS, I can sang sang & u sound exactly like my mother did as she taught us!!!! I pray any listener/viewer hears your heart!!!!!
thank you!
Great video!!! Really help me understand my problem with Jacob.
Excellent video. You've articulated what I was feeling about his voice. I knew there was something about the "tone" that was off-putting for me. Jeez, he seems to have attracted a rabid, if niche following.
Cheers Craig all the best.
Jacob Collier is the Virgil Donati of out-there-composition. I listen to Colliers work when I want something new to chew on in regards to music theory, but there are very few full songs I listen to just for the enjoyment of the music. Same as Donatis work; pushes the technical boundaries.
I actually thought he was manipulating his voice electronically to sound that way, a vocoder is it? Now this tells me he his vocal qualities are studied and deliberate. It's hard to get by and, coupled with the sonic overload on his recordings, it's a tough listen. I'm no musician, let alone singer, but it's clear Mr Collier is super talented. Should he try to reign it all in or is this a future we will come to wonder at? I don't hate it, but I can't bring myself to be relaxed around it. I find myself analysing his music, rather than immersing myself in it, which i would prefer.
Never seen no one hating on Jacob. Also, I love his voice, in a weird way?
Eu não vejo razões para criticá-lo
"Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art." - Claude Debussy
Or like what Emperor Joseph II said to Mozart after the opera: “Too many notes”
Story of Jacob Collier
I’ve always hear this in his voice but couldn’t put my finger on it. It keeps me from being able to listen to him for more than a few songs at a time but that works out because some of his stuff can be audibly exhausting after a while. Still an incredible musician!
Yep a great musician, his weakest area is his voice which is why I highlighted it here though have got endless hate for doing so 😅
I agree with all this - the only track that his voice really works on for me is Little Blue
His voice is a huge part of his appeal. I think people are possibly more turned off by his improvisational style because he's so free and exploratory with his runs. I'm a fan every thing Jacob does though.
Jacob was in a TV production of The Christmas Carol
The area of compromise is certainly also in hi piano playing. He’s really not a spectacular pianist. He wouldn’t even be accepted into an elite program with his technique.
Some people just don't like that kind of music. I for sure don't. I can appreciate his skills and knowledge, but does It mean I have to suck up his music because of it? Ofc not.
Take John Lennon or Cobain for example; their music is nowhere near as complex in theory, structure or rhythm but it still resonates with milions and milions of people. I just don't get the same emotional response when I listen his music, it feels like a showoff kind of music. Emotional value is so underappreciated in music nowadays.
Indeed Cobain being a good example, doing a lot with little is often better than doing little with a lot.
Yeah, his voice is annoying, but I resent his privilege, deeply.
so i hate jacob's voice, it's the main reason I can't get into his music..this is a very interesting analysis.
Thank you :)
Jacob is an uber-talented musician, but he doesn't have a good voice at all.
His voice grew on me but I respect your opinion.
A very sincere and deep analysis. So we can all agree he is a genious musician, one of a kind, but a mediocre vocalist. But many great performers did/do not have the technic you are applying to and still can move you deeply. So in my opinion the reasons that could "filter" his performance are 1) overly using his digital program that transforms his keyboard (amazing) harmonies into harmonized choir - like voices. This in it self creates an un natural, almost auto tune like effect. Of course, it would be crazy to impossible for him to really record and sing all the different voices with such precision and sync (although possible). 2) He is intellectualy a genious but emotionally not deep enough. Very simple. That's why one is impressed by him rather than being deeply moved. But let's face it: how many singers with perfect technic can guarantee deep emotions? Being a great singer doesn't make you a great artist. So, I feel that while you are coming from a place of encouragement rather than of mean criticism the fact is that he does eventually touch many young people while approaching them to quality and sophisticated music which in itself is important with all the horrible music around. Of course, there is a risk that his special style and even his amazing arrangements could become a repetitive cliché. If I were him, I would go to a great vocal master (by the way, with all due respect, you are not the only one out there and money is not his problem...no offence) but when you have such a world success from such a young age one tends to consume it as fast as possible. In the end of the day we can find legitimate criticism in every artist. It is also a matter of taste. He is a passionate and original young genious, with an impressive vocal range (a part of the overtones and pallet) and that in itself is a gift to the world. Let's see how he developes. Kudos
tbh i think his voice is great, his deep notes are velvetty and soothing and his highs and the way he glides over from note to note have a distinct magic to them that i cant quite describe tho i guess i can see how some people would think its bland or weird
Hey thanks for comment 👍
Because Jacob Collier is overrated. He’s not a good singer. And he’s not an exceptionally great jazz pianist. He’s just okay. Standard. Internet hype
He’s being criticized because he’s African American. It’s so tragic because he’s such a talent.
great vid! i never considered his posh accent as being an influence on the dark tone.
however i feel like your point about the jack of all trades master of none argument might be a little flawed in the sense that prior to diversifying into other instruments, he was a boy soprano in a number of operas and i can't imagine that he didn't have vocal coaching at that point in his life. I also recall him saying at some point that he had never taken any music lessons except some vocal lessons when he was young though i can't find a source for that.
i must admit though that i found the voice odd and grating when I initially discovered his music, though i've grown to love it, especially on djesse vol. 2
also i've never seen so many massive paragraphs in the comment sections of any other video lmao good on ya for reading them all
Indeed, he's a 'jack of all trades master of most' would be a better description ;)