One thing that’s often completely overlooked as well is the stringing of the instrument as well as the composition of the hammers. Modern pianos are almost 99% over strung contrsuction.. pianos up until the late 19th century for the most part were straight strung (Steinway patented the over strung technology). The straight strung pianos had much more clarity because every registers had its own individual region, as opposed to over strung where the base and tenor strings overlap, muddying passages in this region with pedal use (in the moonlight sonata for example). This is why most pianist today are often told to “bring out the melody” as the harmony underneath is often muddied by the nature of over strung pianos. Also the composition of the hammers were much different and lighter, offering a much more nuanced tone. Piano hammers grew heavier and heavier to accomodate the loudness war to fill the concert hall which grew bigger. These factors as well as many others (wood choice, age, soundboard grain direction, string gauge etc etc) all contributed to these sonic differences.
Absolutely, you mention several good points about stringing, hammers, and construction that all contribute to the sonic differences. Ultimately, to keep the video more simple and direct, I decided to narrow the video to the basic comparison of pedal sustain on two very different pianos. That came at the cost of going into the many nuanced and interesting facets of piano development. Outside of Beethoven, I am also fascinated by the countless passages in later 19th-century music where you can achieve these long-pedal effects on a straight-strung instrument that are just not possible on a modern piano (possibly the subject of a later video).
@@IgglordGod I was a piano technician for quite some time and studied piano technology, composition, theory, you name it, so I know how piano technology has advanced while also losing some of its original qualities. Yes the pedal can have an effect on the sonorities extracted from the piano but there’s also other factors as well which contribute to this, and I was just stating that. Not trying to be mister know it all, just sharing what I know🤷🏽♂️
I would use half pedal and frequent slight pedal changes to simulate Beethoven piano's resonance. I just don't understand that some musicians always emphasize the importance to follow Beethoven's own pedal marking at those passages. I mean, come on, we are playing a totally different instrument nowadays...😂
The main takeaway for me is that we should pedal with our ears as well as our eyes (with a priority to the former)! Beethoven surely did so, at least as much as he could to a certain point.
@@PianoCurio Exactly. That's why I feel like teaching my students about pedaling are so difficult! They don't really listen or they don't know how to listen to what they played...
Honestly. It just sounds like the older piano didn’t hold the note for as long. It sounds like the sound of each string faded quicker on the older one. This is really the thing that’s going on here. Modern pianos hold the sound longer. But pieces of music composed for certain era of instruments typically sound better on their period instruments. Like the Netherlands Bach Society’s playing of Bach pieces sound better imo to modern recording (in terms of instruments used)
I don't believe that by "sempre senza sordino" Beethoven means never change the pedal. It just means all the notes should be played with the dampers raised. Czerny studied with Beethoven and said in his op. 500 ("On the proper performance of all Beethoven's works for the solo pianoforte") "The prescribed pedal must be re-employed at each note in the bass". I really think this whole "Beethoven asks you to hold the pedal down throughout the whole piece" is a misunderstanding.
That is my interpretation too, just like when a composer asks for pedal “throughout” a piece, it’s understood that you’ll change the pedal where appropriate and you always have to use your ears depending on the instrument you’re playing. Still, the older pianos allowed for longer pedals without making the texture too muddy, whereas the modern ones require more nuanced adjustments.
@@PianoCurio The real answer lies in fact that composers and musicians back in Beethoven's day were using the Whole Beat Metronome Practice, where two ticks of the metronome, that is, a full cycle left and right or vice versa, is one beat, instead of the modern single beat practice. Performers today often because of this misunderstanding strive to play pieces twice as fast as the composer meant them to be played, and many times they can't reach what they think is the speed the composer intended for them to play, because it's just humanly impossible. The recording here is double the speed that Beethoven intended. If the movement is played at it's proper speed, then even on modern grand pianos, the sustain pedal can be held down throughout the whole piece without any muddiness developing.
@@defaulttmc This is nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever for 'whole beat metronome practice' . It is a thoroughly debunked theory with no historical basis.
Dears, "senza sordino" doesn't mean "hold the pedal as long as possible", but exactly means "without moderator", without the felt between hammers and strings! The same means in Schubert's A minor Sonata. So, pianissimo, BUT WITHOUT nasal-sounds moderator.
If I could remake this video today, I would adjust my translation from "pedal as much as possible" to a more accurate phrase "pedal throughout." Pianists at the time would have played with a dryer sound by default, or with the mute/dampers on (knee lever down for fortepianos, or pedal up for modern instruments). It seems more likely to me that Beethoven is telling the pianist "don't play this dryly like a typical Mozart/Haydn/etc. sonata, remove the dampers throughout to create a more sustained effect." That kind of extended pedaling was unusual for the day, but became more common during the later 19th century. If Beethoven had meant "remove the moderator," then I'm not sure why he would go out of his way to express that in this piece. I also wonder how many pianos actually had moderators in 1802 to the point where Beethoven might have felt the need to tell people not to use it there.
Considerazione personale; preferisco il suono del pianoforte del 1812, avverto un colore più caldo sebbene meno rotondo del pianoforte moderno, preferisco quello antico. Grazie per questo magnifico video.
Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. Could you please explain the difference in how the pedals worked then and now please? Did they not just let the strings vibrate like it does now?
A piano technician (like the one who commented earlier, check it out below) could give you a better answer on this. But my understanding is that the design of the piano (size, shape, material, hammers, strings, etc), not necessarily the pedal, is what has developed most dramatically to produce a more resonant and sustained tone. Early 19th century pianos had a thinner sound that decayed very easily (low impedance) so that when they were sustained with the pedal, you had much less blending and blooming of the sound like on a modern piano. One long-term factor in this change was that these early pianos were often built for private use in smaller rooms, but larger pianos developed out of a need to project in the larger modern concert halls. Beethoven wasn’t performing his piano sonatas like Horowitz in a 2500-seat hall, they were more for private consumption. So, you didn’t need a huge Steinway, and they didn’t have the technology and design back then to make that possible anyway.
The early pianos did not sustain naturally nearly as modern do. The strings were made of brass in the bass and iron in the midrange and treble. Generally no wrapping like modern bass strings. The dampening systems were changing depending on country of origin and timeline. But early dampening was fairly effective at stopping the strings as the strings are not moving nearly as much. The leather covered small hammers cannot create heavy vibrations. There are generally more pedals on fortepianos. Una corda to play on one string (unlike modern piano una corda which is actually two) Damper pedal - self explanatory Moderator - putting a thin cloth between the hammer and string. Janissary - a special stop on some instruments to add percussion such as a drum (cloth covered hammer hitting the soundboard from underneath) and a set of bells. Bassoon - a piece of paper on an arm that lowers onto the lower register strings for a bright reedy buzz sound.
@@brandontuomikoski9282 Thank you for your answers, I really appreciate it. Now I really want to find an old style piano for my place. I have always been pretty frustrated with the first movement of the moonlight sonata. Without the pedal, it's very hard to get a good legato and sound. But with, it's just too much.
@@BruceRicard keep your eyes out. Depending on where you are they pop up from time to time. I got quite lucky and found 4 early English square fortepianos here in Las Vegas for an excellent bargain that I am restoring. From 1801 to 1829.
@@BruceRicard l would humbly suggest experimenting with different levels of pedal pressure when you play. I rarely, if ever, completely press the pedal. It's usually only slightly pushed down, a fraction.
For this one I believe I used the recording 3 preset (the one intended for classical genres), which has two close mics on top of the strings and two room mics. Copied and pasted that mic preset for the period piano to get a fair comparison. Thank you!
Comparing a=440 with 455 Hz is difficult. The Bösendorfer, with 455 Hz tuning, would sound much clearer, too, I guess. In general I don't like these high pitches, even if it's the right pitch historically for the related piano.
This is another interesting point that I didn’t fully emphasize in the video. Even the tuning itself creates a brighter, clearer sound in comparison to modern 440, regardless of the piano design. The tools musicians were working with two centuries ago had so many subtle differences from ours. How much those differences informed their compositional choices is a fascinating field of study.
It’s just the standard pedal display in Pianoteq (the instrument model I use), so you can program it to be anything you want like a felt strip, harmonic pedal, etc. Would be cool if it were like an eject pedal in case one is playing a bad concert or something!
(TH-cam ate my post -- trying 5th time) It is worth nothing that modern pianos have differences among them, judging from listening to recordings/videos of the actual acoustic instruments. Boesendorfer and Fazioli pianos are very resonant and will exacerbate the problem of muddying music written for earlier instruments(*), whereas Stuart pianos (at least the ones that were recorded in TH-cam videos in the 2000s) are much crisper despite having modern cross-stringing (I think it is due to their use of agraffes instead of standard bridges)(**); Steinways are somewhere in between(***). (*)Boesendorfer and Fazioli pianos fit best with music like that of Debussy. (**)Stuart pianos fit best with music of Beethoven (in particular his Emperor Concerto -- video floating somewhere around on TH-cam), Brahms, and Ravel. (***)Steinway pianos do a passable job with both types of music, but do not fit particularly well with either.
You bring up a good point - we still have so much variety today and this video is not a comprehensive demonstration of them all. At some point I would like to do a comparison of all of all the modern pianos in Pianoteq, and I hope they come out with a Fazioli model at some point.
@@PianoCurio Unfortunately, Steinway has had some success in driving the world to a monoculture (such as with their Steinway Artists program). They haven't succeeded all the way, but they're definitely on the way.
@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio true, they start influencing musicians when they’re young! “Steinway school” is a common selling point for conservatory-bound musicians (in the US at least), who are led to believe that it is the most desirable concert instrument out there.
What's evident IS the hubris of some close to entering in 2 much despair daring to call THE Master's way , Beethoven music himself ''muddy'' somehow thinking theY know better, but don't , since by their own works (opera lacking much 2) or rather lack there of you can easily know them , and SEE them coming a mile away...Shema!!!
Beethoven wouldn't have given two sh**s. He would congratulate you on your ability to hear the subtle clarity with which his piano compares to modern instruments, and then stuff your ears full of cloth and ask you how it sounded then.
Something about this comment reminded me that sometimes when I’m bored while driving I imagine Beethoven suddenly appearing in the passenger seat next to me and he starts to freak out because he’s never gone 80mph down a modern highway before and he points to the dash screen and is like “was ist das?” and I try to answer in the broken German I haven’t used in six years.
Beethoven was at the early stage of hearing failure in 1801 when this was composed. He would have been fully aware of the tonality in pedaling for the writing of this piece
One thing that’s often completely overlooked as well is the stringing of the instrument as well as the composition of the hammers. Modern pianos are almost 99% over strung contrsuction.. pianos up until the late 19th century for the most part were straight strung (Steinway patented the over strung technology). The straight strung pianos had much more clarity because every registers had its own individual region, as opposed to over strung where the base and tenor strings overlap, muddying passages in this region with pedal use (in the moonlight sonata for example). This is why most pianist today are often told to “bring out the melody” as the harmony underneath is often muddied by the nature of over strung pianos. Also the composition of the hammers were much different and lighter, offering a much more nuanced tone. Piano hammers grew heavier and heavier to accomodate the loudness war to fill the concert hall which grew bigger. These factors as well as many others (wood choice, age, soundboard grain direction, string gauge etc etc) all contributed to these sonic differences.
Absolutely, you mention several good points about stringing, hammers, and construction that all contribute to the sonic differences. Ultimately, to keep the video more simple and direct, I decided to narrow the video to the basic comparison of pedal sustain on two very different pianos. That came at the cost of going into the many nuanced and interesting facets of piano development.
Outside of Beethoven, I am also fascinated by the countless passages in later 19th-century music where you can achieve these long-pedal effects on a straight-strung instrument that are just not possible on a modern piano (possibly the subject of a later video).
Bro said glaze dawg your cooked get a life
@@IgglordGod I was a piano technician for quite some time and studied piano technology, composition, theory, you name it, so I know how piano technology has advanced while also losing some of its original qualities. Yes the pedal can have an effect on the sonorities extracted from the piano but there’s also other factors as well which contribute to this, and I was just stating that. Not trying to be mister know it all, just sharing what I know🤷🏽♂️
@@IgglordGod What an unnecessarily negative response.
You added depth and nuance to the topic. It is welcome and much appreciated 👍
I can't help but admire Beethoven's creativity as his hearing started going.
Pedal = more vibration
You touched on a very great point. Very good video I love these pianoteq videos you have been posting recently. 😀
Thank you, and glad to hear you’re enjoying them. Much more to come!
I lowkey need a fortepiano
I would use half pedal and frequent slight pedal changes to simulate Beethoven piano's resonance. I just don't understand that some musicians always emphasize the importance to follow Beethoven's own pedal marking at those passages. I mean, come on, we are playing a totally different instrument nowadays...😂
The main takeaway for me is that we should pedal with our ears as well as our eyes (with a priority to the former)! Beethoven surely did so, at least as much as he could to a certain point.
You need to find the right balance and adapt your playing to the instrument.
@@PianoCurio Exactly. That's why I feel like teaching my students about pedaling are so difficult! They don't really listen or they don't know how to listen to what they played...
Honestly. It just sounds like the older piano didn’t hold the note for as long. It sounds like the sound of each string faded quicker on the older one. This is really the thing that’s going on here. Modern pianos hold the sound longer. But pieces of music composed for certain era of instruments typically sound better on their period instruments. Like the Netherlands Bach Society’s playing of Bach pieces sound better imo to modern recording (in terms of instruments used)
I don't believe that by "sempre senza sordino" Beethoven means never change the pedal. It just means all the notes should be played with the dampers raised. Czerny studied with Beethoven and said in his op. 500 ("On the proper performance of all Beethoven's works for the solo pianoforte") "The prescribed pedal must be re-employed at each note in the bass". I really think this whole "Beethoven asks you to hold the pedal down throughout the whole piece" is a misunderstanding.
That is my interpretation too, just like when a composer asks for pedal “throughout” a piece, it’s understood that you’ll change the pedal where appropriate and you always have to use your ears depending on the instrument you’re playing.
Still, the older pianos allowed for longer pedals without making the texture too muddy, whereas the modern ones require more nuanced adjustments.
@@PianoCurio The real answer lies in fact that composers and musicians back in Beethoven's day were using the Whole Beat Metronome Practice, where two ticks of the metronome, that is, a full cycle left and right or vice versa, is one beat, instead of the modern single beat practice. Performers today often because of this misunderstanding strive to play pieces twice as fast as the composer meant them to be played, and many times they can't reach what they think is the speed the composer intended for them to play, because it's just humanly impossible.
The recording here is double the speed that Beethoven intended. If the movement is played at it's proper speed, then even on modern grand pianos, the sustain pedal can be held down throughout the whole piece without any muddiness developing.
@@defaulttmc This is nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever for 'whole beat metronome practice' . It is a thoroughly debunked theory with no historical basis.
defaulttmc. Bad news for you, but Wim Winters confirms in his videos that Beethoven was not a WBMP-musician. Want to know more?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 I'm intrigued - tell me more!
So interesting 😮
Dears, "senza sordino" doesn't mean "hold the pedal as long as possible", but exactly means "without moderator", without the felt between hammers and strings! The same means in Schubert's A minor Sonata. So, pianissimo, BUT WITHOUT nasal-sounds moderator.
If I could remake this video today, I would adjust my translation from "pedal as much as possible" to a more accurate phrase "pedal throughout." Pianists at the time would have played with a dryer sound by default, or with the mute/dampers on (knee lever down for fortepianos, or pedal up for modern instruments). It seems more likely to me that Beethoven is telling the pianist "don't play this dryly like a typical Mozart/Haydn/etc. sonata, remove the dampers throughout to create a more sustained effect." That kind of extended pedaling was unusual for the day, but became more common during the later 19th century. If Beethoven had meant "remove the moderator," then I'm not sure why he would go out of his way to express that in this piece. I also wonder how many pianos actually had moderators in 1802 to the point where Beethoven might have felt the need to tell people not to use it there.
Considerazione personale; preferisco il suono del pianoforte del 1812, avverto un colore più caldo sebbene meno rotondo del pianoforte moderno, preferisco quello antico.
Grazie per questo magnifico video.
Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. Could you please explain the difference in how the pedals worked then and now please? Did they not just let the strings vibrate like it does now?
A piano technician (like the one who commented earlier, check it out below) could give you a better answer on this. But my understanding is that the design of the piano (size, shape, material, hammers, strings, etc), not necessarily the pedal, is what has developed most dramatically to produce a more resonant and sustained tone. Early 19th century pianos had a thinner sound that decayed very easily (low impedance) so that when they were sustained with the pedal, you had much less blending and blooming of the sound like on a modern piano.
One long-term factor in this change was that these early pianos were often built for private use in smaller rooms, but larger pianos developed out of a need to project in the larger modern concert halls. Beethoven wasn’t performing his piano sonatas like Horowitz in a 2500-seat hall, they were more for private consumption. So, you didn’t need a huge Steinway, and they didn’t have the technology and design back then to make that possible anyway.
The early pianos did not sustain naturally nearly as modern do. The strings were made of brass in the bass and iron in the midrange and treble. Generally no wrapping like modern bass strings. The dampening systems were changing depending on country of origin and timeline. But early dampening was fairly effective at stopping the strings as the strings are not moving nearly as much. The leather covered small hammers cannot create heavy vibrations.
There are generally more pedals on fortepianos.
Una corda to play on one string (unlike modern piano una corda which is actually two)
Damper pedal - self explanatory
Moderator - putting a thin cloth between the hammer and string.
Janissary - a special stop on some instruments to add percussion such as a drum (cloth covered hammer hitting the soundboard from underneath) and a set of bells.
Bassoon - a piece of paper on an arm that lowers onto the lower register strings for a bright reedy buzz sound.
@@brandontuomikoski9282 Thank you for your answers, I really appreciate it.
Now I really want to find an old style piano for my place.
I have always been pretty frustrated with the first movement of the moonlight sonata. Without the pedal, it's very hard to get a good legato and sound. But with, it's just too much.
@@BruceRicard keep your eyes out. Depending on where you are they pop up from time to time. I got quite lucky and found 4 early English square fortepianos here in Las Vegas for an excellent bargain that I am restoring. From 1801 to 1829.
@@BruceRicard l would humbly suggest experimenting with different levels of pedal pressure when you play. I rarely, if ever, completely press the pedal. It's usually only slightly pushed down, a fraction.
Very good! Which preset do you use for the Bösendorfer instrument pack?
For this one I believe I used the recording 3 preset (the one intended for classical genres), which has two close mics on top of the strings and two room mics. Copied and pasted that mic preset for the period piano to get a fair comparison. Thank you!
@@PianoCurio Thanks for responding!
Comparing a=440 with 455 Hz is difficult. The Bösendorfer, with 455 Hz tuning, would sound much clearer, too, I guess. In general I don't like these high pitches, even if it's the right pitch historically for the related piano.
This is another interesting point that I didn’t fully emphasize in the video. Even the tuning itself creates a brighter, clearer sound in comparison to modern 440, regardless of the piano design. The tools musicians were working with two centuries ago had so many subtle differences from ours. How much those differences informed their compositional choices is a fascinating field of study.
Beethoven's decomposing now
In about 9,800 years he’ll be a fossil and some gatrillionaire will buy him at a Sotheby’s auction and display him in their bathroom
1812 and 455.4? 😮
How would it sound on a modern piano with half pedal?
Essentially the same as most modern recordings, that is, sustained without too much muddiness
Um… what does the 4th pedal of a Bosendorfer do? Lift the dampers on the extra low notes or something?
It’s just the standard pedal display in Pianoteq (the instrument model I use), so you can program it to be anything you want like a felt strip, harmonic pedal, etc. Would be cool if it were like an eject pedal in case one is playing a bad concert or something!
Erroll was an unique genious.
(TH-cam ate my post -- trying 5th time) It is worth nothing that modern pianos have differences among them, judging from listening to recordings/videos of the actual acoustic instruments. Boesendorfer and Fazioli pianos are very resonant and will exacerbate the problem of muddying music written for earlier instruments(*), whereas Stuart pianos (at least the ones that were recorded in TH-cam videos in the 2000s) are much crisper despite having modern cross-stringing (I think it is due to their use of agraffes instead of standard bridges)(**); Steinways are somewhere in between(***).
(*)Boesendorfer and Fazioli pianos fit best with music like that of Debussy.
(**)Stuart pianos fit best with music of Beethoven (in particular his Emperor Concerto -- video floating somewhere around on TH-cam), Brahms, and Ravel.
(***)Steinway pianos do a passable job with both types of music, but do not fit particularly well with either.
You bring up a good point - we still have so much variety today and this video is not a comprehensive demonstration of them all. At some point I would like to do a comparison of all of all the modern pianos in Pianoteq, and I hope they come out with a Fazioli model at some point.
@@PianoCurio Unfortunately, Steinway has had some success in driving the world to a monoculture (such as with their Steinway Artists program). They haven't succeeded all the way, but they're definitely on the way.
@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio true, they start influencing musicians when they’re young! “Steinway school” is a common selling point for conservatory-bound musicians (in the US at least), who are led to believe that it is the most desirable concert instrument out there.
@@PianoCurio Not only that, but they have been known to punish Steinway Artists who perform on pianos made by other manufacturers.
nah. its just fine on both instruments.
What's evident IS the hubris of some close to entering in 2 much despair daring to call THE Master's way , Beethoven music himself ''muddy'' somehow thinking theY know better, but don't , since by their own works (opera lacking much 2) or rather lack there of you can easily know them , and SEE them coming a mile away...Shema!!!
Beethoven wouldn't have given two sh**s. He would congratulate you on your ability to hear the subtle clarity with which his piano compares to modern instruments, and then stuff your ears full of cloth and ask you how it sounded then.
Something about this comment reminded me that sometimes when I’m bored while driving I imagine Beethoven suddenly appearing in the passenger seat next to me and he starts to freak out because he’s never gone 80mph down a modern highway before and he points to the dash screen and is like “was ist das?” and I try to answer in the broken German I haven’t used in six years.
Beethoven was at the early stage of hearing failure in 1801 when this was composed. He would have been fully aware of the tonality in pedaling for the writing of this piece
@@PianoCurio”Das ist die Autobahn. Wir haben fun, fun, fun an die Autobahn.”
@@gatesurfer beethoven: “ahhh ok”
I think equal temperament is broken.
??? They both sound fine to me.
Interesting, even the Moonlight excerpt? The other two examples are more subtle, but that one is way over-pedaled for my taste (on the modern piano).
Factor in the WBMP. Beethoven's pedaling works more or less fine that way. I tried. Including holding sustain throughout Moonlight 1st.
Oh no, there's the whole beat cult again
true!
@@wingcap1448calling it a cult is harsh. If you don't agree, leave it and move on. No one gets harmed.
@@teodorlontos3294 I'm calling it a cult because it exhibits cult-like behavior. I'm gonna be as harsh as I want, thank you sir.
@@wingcap1448 it's ridiculous to call it a cult. But you do you, sir.
Duh!