Beethoven’s original instruction to be played without dampers throughout is a KEY element in determining the tempo. If played on an old piano forte accordingly, the moment it starts sounding cloudy and blurred, it's being played too fast. So with 100% certainty, played twice as fast is ABSURD and just may cause Beethoven’s body to be resurrected; just so he can personally bitch slap you!
this made me laugh a lot. I love moonlight sonata. I consider it an immortal piece. Playing it fast and it still sounding good is a testament to how good it is. Clairdelune is also a banger, and Debussy did a phneomenal job, but playing it fast takes away the romance out of it.
I'm learning the First movement just now and have heard a few recordings. It is generally played too slowly, probably because of that unfortunate name connection. That's a handy point about the mud though!
It is worth noting that the sound of an undampened fortepiano still tapered faster than the modern piano, so it would still be played faster than many modern recording would be done, though perhaps not twice as fast.
If you mean the section where he played it fast, that was four times the speed most people play it, not double. That was indeed ridiculous and would make Beethoven punch you in the throat, but the slow tempo at the beginning of the video is also wrong.
At the section around 4:00 you mix up the different movements of a three-movement sonata with the three sections of the sonata form movement. The exposition, development and recapitulation refer to the three sections of one movement in sonata form, not the three movements of the sonata as a whole. That’s also rudimentary knowledge of musical form. Not to be unkind, but this is a really surprising error from a professionally-produced music channel. You would certainly never refer to a final fourth movement as a coda. A coda is the end section of a single movement. A passacaglia would also be a really unusual final movement in a Classical period sonata. Neither Mozart nor Beethoven wrote any passacaglias in any of their piano sonatas. By then the passacaglia was quite outdated and it wouldn’t be until Romanticism was well on its way that the form would enjoy a resurgence. It seems almost like you’re referring here to the Baroque Sonata de Chiesa, but that’s quite different to a classical period sonata. Sorry to point this out, but I recommend this channel to my students and clearly lots of young musicians use it to learn.
Oof... This is an interesting idea, but some of the statements about interpreting Beethoven are a bit wide of the mark. The first movement of a sonata is usually the only one in sonata form - the others (such as the 2nd movement of Moonlight itself) are in other forms. These other movements only rarely have anything to do with the form known as 'sonata form' - a notable exception being Liszt's Bm Piano Sonata, which has a first movement in sonata form which functions as the exposition of a larger sonata form spanning the whole work. Writing slow first movements was uncommon but not unheard of - Mozart does so in K282, and K331 gets rid of sonata form in the first mvt altogether (it starts with an andante theme which is used for variations). The comparison with Don Giovanni was made by the pianist Edwin Fischer, who apparently was shown a transcription of the Commendatore's murder, in Beethoven's hand, by a Viennese librarian. From this, Fischer drew the conclusion that Beethoven must have used the passage for inspiration - but Fischer himself plays Moonlight at around 58BPM, describing it as a solemn dirge. Beethoven's own student, Czerny, describes the piece as mournful and ghostly. I also think it's a little bit misleading to characterise the second mvt as 'pretty slow' - the version you played has a crotchet beat of about 192BPM, which is significantly faster than the c.156BPM of the 'amazingly fast' third mvt. Even if one 'feels' the 2nd mvt 'in one', it is still completely characteristic of a light, allegretto scherzo. What is true is that notation in the C18th & C19th was much more fluid and rubato, allowing space for expressive (occasionally wild) rubato and ornamentation at times. Robert Levin gives a very good lecture on ornamentation in Mozart piano sonatas, which I believe is available on TH-cam. A very interesting field to talk about, but to say things like 'Beethoven was revolutionary but not really' is just conjecture, which in this case is baseless.
You're mixing up the concepts of movements in an Opus with sections within a classical Allegro di Sonata movement. Thus mixing Sonata system of 3 movements with the sonata form usually used for the first movements of the Sonatas.
We should also keep in mind that modern pianos are so much more resonant than Beethoven's piano. I believe this justifies playing the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata at a slower tempo. ( but I've always secretly thought that there is a missing first movement to this Sonata
Everybody knows Beethoven, as he developed, started breaking away from Classical sonata form. He added an extra movement to the orchestral works (usually), and experiments with shifting around adagios and allegros for dramatic effects. That's what makes his music revolutionary, to say the least.
A good genre of music to explore tempos with is ragtime. Most performers play ragtime fast and lively. But slowed down to a moderate tempo, the syncopated accents are heard better, making the music fuller and more expressive. "Ragtime should never be played fast." ~ Scott Joplin
The "moonlight sonata" first movement is often played far too slowly because the time signature is not properly interpreted: it's an alla breve: two beats oer bar, not four.
@@benedictearlson9044Count the beats. You're right in that most interpretations (including the two from the video, the slow and fast one) sound like 4/4 regardless of the tempo. But you want two beats per bar, and that pulse cannot make sense if you play too slow.
It's interesting what you said about Beethoven at 5:29, considering he did actually pioneer a new form for sonatas, not once, but twice. Sonatas were nearly always three movements before Beethoven wrote his first one: usually fast-slow-fast, but sometimes with a scherzo instead of the slow movement. Beethoven's first four piano sonatas broke from this by using four movements, including both a scherzo, _and_ a slow movement, which was very uncommon at the time. His seventh followed a similar pattern, but with a second slow movement rather than a scherzo. His eighth piano sonata then broke _that_ pattern, returning to three movements not by removing the extra slow movement, but by dispensing with the first allegro movement, resulting in an at the time _very_ uncommon slow-slow-fast three movement form. This is also the form of the Moonlight Sonata, but it's definitely not typical of sonatas by other composers of the time. The slow tempo of the first movement was a deliberate decision by Beethoven, and the tempo at 5:59 is not even close to how he intended it to be played. This is not a typical allegro first movement that has been slowed down by performers. It's a slow movement that would typically be a _second_ movement, in a four-movement form that by then was becoming common in symphonies, (but not so much in chamber music), but in which Beethoven often opted to omit the first fast movement.
Guys, what was the point of this video? I’m not trying to be mean, but it was all over the place. The 1st movement of the Op. 27/2 should be played faster, but not for the reasons you mentioned. First of all, it’s an alla breve, so the pulse - so to speak - is on the half note, not the quarter notes. Second, In Beethoven’s time, the parallel-strung fortepiano had a smaller resonance chamber and a lighter action which facilitated faster tempi. The venues where these pieces were performed were salons and rooms with less echo. Czerny (a pupil of Beethoven) and Moscheles (a friend of his) indicate 60 bpm for the first movement. Also, the 2nd movement is “not slow”. It’s a minuet allegretto (originated by Haydn) which was played at a fairly brisk tempo back in the day (see the Haydn mechanical clock for reference): virtually all modern performers and conductors get this wrong.
The point of the video was to talk about how tempo affects how music feels, and to introduce people who are more familiar with DAWs than Classical music to a different way of thinking about tempo, and how this can relate to their own music. It’s 1/3 of 3 videos based around tempo and timing. The Beethoven example really gets people hot under the skin for some reason though 😅
Because the information is way way way wrong. Mixes concepts of movements and sections within a movement. And therefore makes little to no sense at all.@@alexlamymusic
@@zoundbiestudio4021 we released a follow up/correction video to this if you’re interested! Was a mistake we made, a product of script editing, but we have issued a correction 🙏
The tempo references, usually in Italian, have changed over time. In the past it was as slow as 80bpm. Today it is listed as 100 bpm. That’s a 25% difference!!!
Re op. 27 nr. 2: (1) Pls. remember "alla breve" - you count "one two" in a bar. Thats why it shouldn't be so "difficult" to play in a faster tempo ;) (2) The dotted rhythm indicates that this piece could be some kind of march, maybe a funeral march (op. 26). So you shouldn't march so slow ;). One more indicator that this piece may be played faster than many pianists did and do. Even if I play faster, I can still create delicacy ("delicatissimamente"), as indicated by the composer. Listen to Andras Schiffs lectures on Beethovens sonatas. "Beethoven wollte immer das Ganze gewinnen." So we would say in German. Therefore it is not necessary to play so slow, that you can establish an interpretation of each of the three notes of the triplets ;) I hope you get what I want to make clear. I have been playing und loving this movement for more than five decades now. Many years I prefered a slow tempo. In the meanswhile I like it more flently. Joachim Kaiser wrote: the older the pianists get, the more they take this movement in a more fluent way, most of them. I know there are exceptions like Gulda ... What do you think?
To be honest with respect, I prefer when I play the moonlight sonata alla breve with triplets that the piece is flowing I count 2 beats to the bar, that humbly sounds the right tempo, like when I play ragtime the maple leaf rag is played tempo di Marcia or march time, when I play I imagine a band marching if it was too slow they will lose the rhythm and if to fast the people in the band I envision will all collide into one another, keeping to the tempo is important when playing the piano 🎹, that is my humble opinion.
I think that we probably still play the old pieces very much like they were intended, because we never stopped playing them. So each orchestrator would have a memory of past performances to draw from.
You might want to become a little more familiar with the broad body of work of the last 300+ years, now collectively labeled 'classical'. Otherwise you'll run into many contradictions which invalidate the arguments you're making. Some interesting examination of pieces at different speeds, but regardless I find myself disagreeing with practically every conclusion drawn. As many others point out, the description of Sonata form is incorrect, and on top of that, Op. 27 No. 2 doesn't really follow the guidelines of exposition, development, and recapitulation anyway. Andante sostenuto is fairly clear even without a BPM marking, and as you yourself point out, that is inherently open to interpretation by the player. Additionally, the argument about not wanting to break with the tradition of movements as Fast, Slow, Fast is just not supported by pieces such as Mozart's String Quartet No. 19 (composed in 1785, 26 years earlier) which starts slow and builds tempo throughout.
Nicely done video. One of your comments could perhaps inspire some additional reflection, specifically at 8:52 where you say "...we find that the musical performance lives and breathes through tempo". Nothing inherently wrong with that statement, but it's also worth remembering that for much music, throughout history, and in most cultures, musical performance lives and breathes through *breath*. Recalling that traditionally so much music would be sung, or played on instruments that depend on human lung-power, reminds us that the nature and limits of performers' breathing did much to shape phrasing, and influence tempos and rhythm. And instruments that don't have that limitation of breath often still try to recreate the feeling of breathing in their phrasing. The phrasing of the Debussy and the Beethoven (and much music from the 'European art music' tradition) are also heavily influenced by the accompanying harmonies: the creation of tension and its release influences phrasing in a way that makes the music unsuitable for a "rhythmic grid". And on the general topic of tempo in Beethoven's music: you're opening up a can of worms, so to speak, that probably can't be 'resolved' within the range of the topic of this video. ;-) Cheers!
OK, that's true, we italians are really messy using the same word for at least three or four different things, but please correct the sonata form part! There's a misconception between "sonata form" - that leads to the organization of musical material in a movement - and "sonata" that's a musical piece in three or four sections. Apart from that, thank you for these project...love all your great and useful videos!
the way I feel it: Moonlight Sonata was written to express his disappointment in the world, that people go by class, and that they treated him like a maid to play music for them, like a servant. And of course, the servant should not marry the high class daughter. So if this is to write his life story, I don't think he'd follow the "regular form" or the "formula" of that era. He'd write it however he feels is proper to express the story.
It's possible, but the way I always heard Beethoven's life was that he was the first classical musician who could basically pick his patron. The ones before him were basically walking around with "will play for food" sandwich boards. Eroica was dedicated to Napolean, but when Napolean declared himself Emperor, Beethoven tore the dedication up. Lenin saw the Apposionata played live, but he came away from it saying "it reconciles you too much with this vile world." To me the Moonlight Sonata is just beautiful. I grew up in an apartment building, and when I was five, this 12-year-old used to come over and play our piano, and sometimes he'd play the first movement. I'd start to cry, so I'd hide in my room. It still freaks me out that music can move a child like that, absent any cultural references.
There is one genre of music where tempo preciseness is critical, and that's a snare line. If you have 10 snares all drumming unsync'd, it will sound like a muddy mess. But, sync'd and it will be tight and sound like a single drum. It is truly amazing to hear.
yess that's how the 3rd movement's rhythm machine makes me feel. i absolutely love it. it's seemingly so simple with not much action going on, but at a fast speed and high precision it sounds like something else entirely.
Since we are human...we are NOT by nature at rigid tempo....what changes this?.. Emotion! That is the escence of being human. Wide variey in any piece is emotion...that which makes music and not patterned sound...lifeless and rigid....DEAD. I'll take emotion and human variability (within scope of the music and NOT a parlor game by the performer) over ANY fixed meter marking. Variability gives LIFE, rigid meter is just sound....flat and lifeless....nonhuman in emotion.
I always liked playing the first part quickly, I liked how different the mood was than in the slow version. Even though my piano teacher didn't appreciate it - now I have an excuse :D
Hope this channel gets more attention, it's so useful, helpful and in many cases eye-opening - even for those of us who want to use these sampled instruments in a less traditional scoring way. It's amazing what these small, sometimes seemingly insignificant adjustments make to all our programming. Thanks!
@@virtual.orchestration I love playing the moonlight sonata on the piano, I first heard it on a drama called flame trees of thika, back in 1980 when I was 10yrs old, the music score says to play triplets on alla breve or cut common time so 2 beats to the bar, as common time is usually 4 beats to the bar, so it is to sound like it is flowing never to be played faster, I find when I play it this way alla breve it humbly speaking sounds right, greetings from wales uk 😀
We know there is a problem with subtitles in this video. We will try to find the reason for that, and may need Google's / TH-cam's help on that one. Thanks for letting us know.
Sonata form takes place in a single movement, not spread out over the entirety of a 3/4 movement piece. 😂 This video is a massive disservice to the study of musical form and I sincerely hope this channel will make a correction video. Correct definition of Sonata form: In short, ABA (plus an occasional Coda). More specifically, the Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation take place in a single movement, typically the first in a Sonata, but often in all movements of a Symphony. For those interested in more accurate information, check out Leonard Bernstein’s famous children’s concert explaining this form using Mozart’s Jupiter Symphony. Massive disappointment, guys. Do better.
I think one of the issues is that "sonata" (e.g. a piano sonata) can refer to a multi-movement work, but "sonata" (i.e. sonata *form*) refers to a single movement structured with exposition, development, and recapitulation sections. In quick succession, Alex uses the term sonata in both of these senses. What he's saying could've been clarified a bit better between these two uses of the term, but the problem stems from whoever made the accompanying diagram, which conflates the two uses of the term "sonata."
@@GalenDeGraf sorry, but the issue lies in the fact that they didn’t do their research before publishing video. You’ll recall I made no comment on an individual, but rather the production in general. However, you can clearly hear Alex referring to the Coda as a “movement” in that same diagram scene. So Im not sure he’s off the hook either. The entire premise of the video is that Moonlight Sonata is performed “wrong”, and to back that up they used a discussion of sonata form and tempo. However, they clearly misunderstood what “Quasi una fantasia” was referring to. A fantasia isn’t necessarily a strict musical form, but at this time would have been referring to the fact that it isnt a part of the typical “fast-slow-fast” structure of typical sonatas of the day. Regardless, the fact that the final movement “Presto agitato” is understood to be played so fast means that the two preceding movements should be played in a tempo in relation with it. In other words, since Allegretto (second movement) is quite slower than Presto and Adagio (first movement) is even slower, the idea that it should be played fast to fit into typical sonata form is laughable. If they’re going to make such a controversial statement, it’s best to back it up with a more solid argument. Hope that makes sense, man. Not trying to call anyone out personally, but Im shocked that an institution like Berklee would put their name on a video that contains so many fallacies….
@@zacharywhitney7295 It is an unfortunate issue to see from a degree-granting program. They should have consulted a music theorist for the video, but now that it's already been uploaded--and presuming they don't want to do a full re-shoot--I think they can at least do a quick update of the diagram at that spot. It doesn't solve all of their sonata issues, but would make that part a lot better. And @virtualorchestration, if you ever do want to consult a professional music theorist, feel free to reach out!
Hey @Galen De Graf and hey @Zachary Whitney. Yes, you both are right and we made a mistake, mixing up the structure of a sonata with the sonata form - which is the structure of only the first movement of a sonata. We will make a new video, talking about our mistake, and we might even reach out to you @Galen for some help in this regard. Please give us a little patience, as it takes time to script, plan, shoot and edit a new video on this behalf. Thank you for your criticism and pointing out this mistake in the video. Creating videos that are meant to be fun and provide some educational value at the same time can be challenging =)
Hello, we do not know what is wrong with the subtitles with this video and we're really sorry. Subtitles are turned on and we can see the transcription in the channel manager. They are not showing in the video though. Why ? We don't know. We are trying to get in touch with google / TH-cam what is technically going wrong here. Thank you for letting us know.
@@virtual.orchestration Thanks for the answer! It's totally true, there is some change on TH-cam because after the previous comment I made, I uploaded "movie trailers" to my channel 3 and I've been trying to make the subtitles work to this day. On the other hand, thank you very much for the videos that you upload. The video on the articulation of the cello was even very useful to me, just in the composition of the video that premiered on Friday, so thank you very much again!
No matter the truth if nobody knows for sure. But this is a fact that the slow tempo version is beautiful, if it's not ridiculously too slow of course. And let's face it: you have a piece in minor with a lot of sophisticated harmonic modulations, even dramatic dissonance spots, and the notation 'adagio sostenuto'...
Esto me recuerda que una vez Toscanini, se le ocurrió la brillante idea de intrepetar el bolero de Ravel bien rápido en frente del compositor. Y este quedó enojado con Toscanini.
The standard sonata form was fast and exiting, slow and relaxing, medium and "dancy", Beethoven created his original medium, slow, medium, fast form, but then he didn't stop, and made the Moonlight Sonata Mvts, slow, medium, fast. So music historians are wrong, because he did make note that he made the Sonata slow, medium, fast. The fact is, the first Mvt isn't played too slowly, it's played too fast
Automatic subtitles are not available in this video. It's a pity I can't understand it. Please activate them if possible, the previous ones if possible
Hey Jorge. We are sorry. It is a technical issue by TH-cam and we are trying to find the mistake here. Subtitles are turned on and we can see them in the channel manager... However they do not show up in the video. We will keep you updated and thank you for letting us know.
Thought provoking but I don't agree with you overall. Adagio Sostenuto is certainly on the slow side. Let's not over think it. It's very beautiful the way it's been played for 200 years. Remember the tempo played today came directly from Beethoven students, particularly Czerny, and down the line. Faster tempi are musically unsatisfying.
I read once an article about Beethoven getting the bpm all wrong when he started using them. Apparently because he didn't know how to read the metronome and used the bpm marked below the weight and not above... 😅 Doesn't contribute to the question what Andante sostenuto means in this case, but I found it very funny 🤭
Only thing I know is that some classical pieces are being played TOO Fast in today's era. Some of them I stop and ask myself if someone from the 1700s or 1800s would enjoy that noisy thing being played in a small room, with the Pianos of the time that couldn't keep in tune for more than some few minutes in some cases, like the early PianoFortes. And to be honest I think they wouldn't. They were too "fancy" to praise a guy who sits on a Piano and plays like he is runing from the police, with notes so fast that it becomes anoying to hear. Sometimes, when I face some of those pieces on the internet, I slow them down a little bit and they start to sound like a music piece from that era. And I ask myself: do we really know how the music from the 1700s and 1800s really sounded like, or are we misreading their tempo? A swear to god: some musics from that era are just a bunch of scales played too fast that it has no soul in it, can't bring no pleasure to the ears. I can't belive those great composers would produce those awful noises.
user-ye2sm… You overlook a part of human nature - the urge to compete. Already our kids want to compete: «Dad, are you as strong as me?» «Dad, shall we see who can run the fastest?» According to wikipedia, the Olympic Games are a tradition close to 3000 years old. Pianists + - 200 years ago also competed, not on the sport field, but on the piano. The keys were the pianists sports arena! The pianists did not always prioritise the deep musical expression, we understand this when we study the sheet music more closely. The composers used a number of Italian words for expressions in the slow movements. But in the etudes we find little such thing, there it was to be played very fast - the MM numbers tell us. In the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon, we read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and «revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». The book also says that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists. Many visited Beethoven at his home, and several describe his playing as virtuoso. When Beethoven, and other composers repeatedly write «Presto» and «Prestissimo» in their compositions, it further confirms the urge to impress with a dazzling technique, the urge to compete against other pianists/composers, as evidenced by the quote from the book. The competition between Liszt and Thalberg in 1837 is mentioned in old sources. Our private taste is worthless against ancient written sources. Bernhard Ruchti puts it this way: «I think that pros and cons should be concidered equally and honestly, and the historical facts should not be confused with personal taste».
Were there not many, many, many printed (eg:news) comments recognizing and seriously questioning his organization of this sonata. That would indicate that it was certainly slow. Why have you not cited these publications. Do these (then) contemporary publications not support your views. Why be objective?
Hmmm.... One and two and three and four and... versus One, two, three, four.... Modern "performance education" seems to be producing human player pianos, not piano players.
why not? I find the 3rd movement played at 155 bpm to sound perfectly beautiful. However, I see most people play the first movement and other songs like Für Elise a bit too fast. Everyone has his own taste in certain pieces. If you find everything to be too fast, i dunno what to tell you.
You could not be more INCORRECT!!! Let me explain: Tempo is not based on "time". It is based ... ON TASTE!!! Hence, you're ALWAYS wrong with these type of videos.
Bruh. Slow means slow. Everyone tries to do this with Moonlight Sonata and it’s always so embarrassing. You can’t compare tempo variations (rubato) found within Impressionist Music like Claire de Lune to the more traditionally rigid romantic style of Moonlight sonata. To say that one piece is meant to utilize rubato (an impressionist piece) somehow justifies going against obvious tempo markings within a romantic piece reeks of trying to justify your clickbait. Take this video down it’s unbelievably misleading.
It's kind of silly to say a certain tempo is wrong if the piece sounds good even at dramatically different tempos. For example, the famous song "Stardust" was originally conceived and composed by Hoagy Carmichael as a fast, jaunty tune. Only later was its tempo greatly decreased to become the slow, haunting, and beautiful dreamy piece that most people recognize.
Next time you analyze something, P, please use a real piano or at least a better piano sample as when you play it fast it sounds absolutely horrible and uncharacteristic of a piano sound
Beethoven’s original instruction to be played without dampers throughout is a KEY element in determining the tempo. If played on an old piano forte accordingly, the moment it starts sounding cloudy and blurred, it's being played too fast. So with 100% certainty, played twice as fast is ABSURD and just may cause Beethoven’s body to be resurrected; just so he can personally bitch slap you!
this made me laugh a lot. I love moonlight sonata. I consider it an immortal piece. Playing it fast and it still sounding good is a testament to how good it is. Clairdelune is also a banger, and Debussy did a phneomenal job, but playing it fast takes away the romance out of it.
It's literally a sonata.
I'm learning the First movement just now and have heard a few recordings.
It is generally played too slowly, probably because of that unfortunate name connection.
That's a handy point about the mud though!
It is worth noting that the sound of an undampened fortepiano still tapered faster than the modern piano, so it would still be played faster than many modern recording would be done, though perhaps not twice as fast.
If you mean the section where he played it fast, that was four times the speed most people play it, not double. That was indeed ridiculous and would make Beethoven punch you in the throat, but the slow tempo at the beginning of the video is also wrong.
At the section around 4:00 you mix up the different movements of a three-movement sonata with the three sections of the sonata form movement. The exposition, development and recapitulation refer to the three sections of one movement in sonata form, not the three movements of the sonata as a whole. That’s also rudimentary knowledge of musical form. Not to be unkind, but this is a really surprising error from a professionally-produced music channel. You would certainly never refer to a final fourth movement as a coda. A coda is the end section of a single movement. A passacaglia would also be a really unusual final movement in a Classical period sonata. Neither Mozart nor Beethoven wrote any passacaglias in any of their piano sonatas. By then the passacaglia was quite outdated and it wouldn’t be until Romanticism was well on its way that the form would enjoy a resurgence. It seems almost like you’re referring here to the Baroque Sonata de Chiesa, but that’s quite different to a classical period sonata.
Sorry to point this out, but I recommend this channel to my students and clearly lots of young musicians use it to learn.
Yes, this was a surprising mistake.
@@zzzaphod8507 Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.
I was quite surprised when he had messed this up. Should have been: (Mov. 1) Exp, Dev, Recap. (Mov. 2, 3) repeated structure
A really resounding howler!
Never be sorry for accuracy or truth.
Oof... This is an interesting idea, but some of the statements about interpreting Beethoven are a bit wide of the mark. The first movement of a sonata is usually the only one in sonata form - the others (such as the 2nd movement of Moonlight itself) are in other forms. These other movements only rarely have anything to do with the form known as 'sonata form' - a notable exception being Liszt's Bm Piano Sonata, which has a first movement in sonata form which functions as the exposition of a larger sonata form spanning the whole work. Writing slow first movements was uncommon but not unheard of - Mozart does so in K282, and K331 gets rid of sonata form in the first mvt altogether (it starts with an andante theme which is used for variations).
The comparison with Don Giovanni was made by the pianist Edwin Fischer, who apparently was shown a transcription of the Commendatore's murder, in Beethoven's hand, by a Viennese librarian. From this, Fischer drew the conclusion that Beethoven must have used the passage for inspiration - but Fischer himself plays Moonlight at around 58BPM, describing it as a solemn dirge. Beethoven's own student, Czerny, describes the piece as mournful and ghostly.
I also think it's a little bit misleading to characterise the second mvt as 'pretty slow' - the version you played has a crotchet beat of about 192BPM, which is significantly faster than the c.156BPM of the 'amazingly fast' third mvt. Even if one 'feels' the 2nd mvt 'in one', it is still completely characteristic of a light, allegretto scherzo.
What is true is that notation in the C18th & C19th was much more fluid and rubato, allowing space for expressive (occasionally wild) rubato and ornamentation at times. Robert Levin gives a very good lecture on ornamentation in Mozart piano sonatas, which I believe is available on TH-cam. A very interesting field to talk about, but to say things like 'Beethoven was revolutionary but not really' is just conjecture, which in this case is baseless.
You're mixing up the concepts of movements in an Opus with sections within a classical Allegro di Sonata movement. Thus mixing Sonata system of 3 movements with the sonata form usually used for the first movements of the Sonatas.
Indeed. We issued a correction in another video 👍🏻
We should also keep in mind that modern pianos are so much more resonant than Beethoven's piano. I believe this justifies playing the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata at a slower tempo.
( but I've always secretly thought that there is a missing first movement to this Sonata
Metronome value for the Moonlight Sonata of 60 provided by Czerny and Moscheles, reliable sources.
But not Beethoven!
@@ant7936 But check out Noorduin's thesis on Beethoven's tempo indications, they are consistent with Beethoven's metronome values for other works.
Cool. Thanks for sharing.
Everybody knows Beethoven, as he developed, started breaking away from Classical sonata form. He added an extra movement to the orchestral works (usually), and experiments with shifting around adagios and allegros for dramatic effects. That's what makes his music revolutionary, to say the least.
Thank You Very Much!
🙂🙏
Thank you for your appreciacion 💛
This was actually so helpful
this is very useful content. Thanks! 🎼
A good genre of music to explore tempos with is ragtime. Most performers play ragtime fast and lively. But slowed down to a moderate tempo, the syncopated accents are heard better, making the music fuller and more expressive. "Ragtime should never be played fast." ~ Scott Joplin
The "moonlight sonata" first movement is often played far too slowly because the time signature is not properly interpreted: it's an alla breve: two beats oer bar, not four.
Time signature and tempo are distinct aren't they?
@@benedictearlson9044Count the beats. You're right in that most interpretations (including the two from the video, the slow and fast one) sound like 4/4 regardless of the tempo. But you want two beats per bar, and that pulse cannot make sense if you play too slow.
It's interesting what you said about Beethoven at 5:29, considering he did actually pioneer a new form for sonatas, not once, but twice.
Sonatas were nearly always three movements before Beethoven wrote his first one: usually fast-slow-fast, but sometimes with a scherzo instead of the slow movement. Beethoven's first four piano sonatas broke from this by using four movements, including both a scherzo, _and_ a slow movement, which was very uncommon at the time. His seventh followed a similar pattern, but with a second slow movement rather than a scherzo. His eighth piano sonata then broke _that_ pattern, returning to three movements not by removing the extra slow movement, but by dispensing with the first allegro movement, resulting in an at the time _very_ uncommon slow-slow-fast three movement form. This is also the form of the Moonlight Sonata, but it's definitely not typical of sonatas by other composers of the time. The slow tempo of the first movement was a deliberate decision by Beethoven, and the tempo at 5:59 is not even close to how he intended it to be played. This is not a typical allegro first movement that has been slowed down by performers. It's a slow movement that would typically be a _second_ movement, in a four-movement form that by then was becoming common in symphonies, (but not so much in chamber music), but in which Beethoven often opted to omit the first fast movement.
Guys, what was the point of this video? I’m not trying to be mean, but it was all over the place.
The 1st movement of the Op. 27/2 should be played faster, but not for the reasons you mentioned.
First of all, it’s an alla breve, so the pulse - so to speak - is on the half note, not the quarter notes. Second, In Beethoven’s time, the parallel-strung fortepiano had a smaller resonance chamber and a lighter action which facilitated faster tempi. The venues where these pieces were performed were salons and rooms with less echo. Czerny (a pupil of Beethoven) and Moscheles (a friend of his) indicate 60 bpm for the first movement. Also, the 2nd movement is “not slow”. It’s a minuet allegretto (originated by Haydn) which was played at a fairly brisk tempo back in the day (see the Haydn mechanical clock for reference): virtually all modern performers and conductors get this wrong.
The point of the video was to talk about how tempo affects how music feels, and to introduce people who are more familiar with DAWs than Classical music to a different way of thinking about tempo, and how this can relate to their own music.
It’s 1/3 of 3 videos based around tempo and timing.
The Beethoven example really gets people hot under the skin for some reason though 😅
Because the information is way way way wrong. Mixes concepts of movements and sections within a movement. And therefore makes little to no sense at all.@@alexlamymusic
@@zoundbiestudio4021 we released a follow up/correction video to this if you’re interested!
Was a mistake we made, a product of script editing, but we have issued a correction 🙏
The Moonlight Sonata is high up on my list of "music I wish I had heard when it was first played". It must have blown minds.
The tempo references, usually in Italian, have changed over time. In the past it was as slow as 80bpm. Today it is listed as 100 bpm. That’s a 25% difference!!!
Re op. 27 nr. 2:
(1) Pls. remember "alla breve" - you count "one two" in a bar. Thats why it shouldn't be so "difficult" to play in a faster tempo ;)
(2) The dotted rhythm indicates that this piece could be some kind of march, maybe a funeral march (op. 26). So you shouldn't march so slow ;). One more indicator that this piece may be played faster than many pianists did and do.
Even if I play faster, I can still create delicacy ("delicatissimamente"), as indicated by the composer.
Listen to Andras Schiffs lectures on Beethovens sonatas.
"Beethoven wollte immer das Ganze gewinnen." So we would say in German. Therefore it is not necessary to play so slow, that you can establish an interpretation of each of the three notes of the triplets ;)
I hope you get what I want to make clear.
I have been playing und loving this movement for more than five decades now. Many years I prefered a slow tempo. In the meanswhile I like it more flently. Joachim Kaiser wrote: the older the pianists get, the more they take this movement in a more fluent way, most of them. I know there are exceptions like Gulda ...
What do you think?
To be honest with respect, I prefer when I play the moonlight sonata alla breve with triplets that the piece is flowing I count 2 beats to the bar, that humbly sounds the right tempo, like when I play ragtime the maple leaf rag is played tempo di Marcia or march time, when I play I imagine a band marching if it was too slow they will lose the rhythm and if to fast the people in the band I envision will all collide into one another, keeping to the tempo is important when playing the piano 🎹, that is my humble opinion.
I think that we probably still play the old pieces very much like they were intended, because we never stopped playing them. So each orchestrator would have a memory of past performances to draw from.
You might want to become a little more familiar with the broad body of work of the last 300+ years, now collectively labeled 'classical'. Otherwise you'll run into many contradictions which invalidate the arguments you're making. Some interesting examination of pieces at different speeds, but regardless I find myself disagreeing with practically every conclusion drawn.
As many others point out, the description of Sonata form is incorrect, and on top of that, Op. 27 No. 2 doesn't really follow the guidelines of exposition, development, and recapitulation anyway. Andante sostenuto is fairly clear even without a BPM marking, and as you yourself point out, that is inherently open to interpretation by the player. Additionally, the argument about not wanting to break with the tradition of movements as Fast, Slow, Fast is just not supported by pieces such as Mozart's String Quartet No. 19 (composed in 1785, 26 years earlier) which starts slow and builds tempo throughout.
Nicely done video.
One of your comments could perhaps inspire some additional reflection, specifically at 8:52 where you say "...we find that the musical performance lives and breathes through tempo".
Nothing inherently wrong with that statement, but it's also worth remembering that for much music, throughout history, and in most cultures, musical performance lives and breathes through *breath*.
Recalling that traditionally so much music would be sung, or played on instruments that depend on human lung-power, reminds us that the nature and limits of performers' breathing did much to shape phrasing, and influence tempos and rhythm. And instruments that don't have that limitation of breath often still try to recreate the feeling of breathing in their phrasing.
The phrasing of the Debussy and the Beethoven (and much music from the 'European art music' tradition) are also heavily influenced by the accompanying harmonies: the creation of tension and its release influences phrasing in a way that makes the music unsuitable for a "rhythmic grid".
And on the general topic of tempo in Beethoven's music: you're opening up a can of worms, so to speak, that probably can't be 'resolved' within the range of the topic of this video. ;-)
Cheers!
Wow!!! Very cool and helpful video!!! Thank you.
OK, that's true, we italians are really messy using the same word for at least three or four different things, but please correct the sonata form part! There's a misconception between "sonata form" - that leads to the organization of musical material in a movement - and "sonata" that's a musical piece in three or four sections. Apart from that, thank you for these project...love all your great and useful videos!
Please watch our episode that corrects the mistake 😊
@@alexlamymusic Sure, thank you! 😉
the way I feel it: Moonlight Sonata was written to express his disappointment in the world, that people go by class, and that they treated him like a maid to play music for them, like a servant. And of course, the servant should not marry the high class daughter. So if this is to write his life story, I don't think he'd follow the "regular form" or the "formula" of that era. He'd write it however he feels is proper to express the story.
It's possible, but the way I always heard Beethoven's life was that he was the first classical musician who could basically pick his patron. The ones before him were basically walking around with "will play for food" sandwich boards.
Eroica was dedicated to Napolean, but when Napolean declared himself Emperor, Beethoven tore the dedication up. Lenin saw the Apposionata played live, but he came away from it saying "it reconciles you too much with this vile world."
To me the Moonlight Sonata is just beautiful. I grew up in an apartment building, and when I was five, this 12-year-old used to come over and play our piano, and sometimes he'd play the first movement. I'd start to cry, so I'd hide in my room. It still freaks me out that music can move a child like that, absent any cultural references.
There is one genre of music where tempo preciseness is critical, and that's a snare line. If you have 10 snares all drumming unsync'd, it will sound like a muddy mess. But, sync'd and it will be tight and sound like a single drum. It is truly amazing to hear.
yess that's how the 3rd movement's rhythm machine makes me feel. i absolutely love it. it's seemingly so simple with not much action going on, but at a fast speed and high precision it sounds like something else entirely.
Since we are human...we are NOT by nature at rigid tempo....what changes this?.. Emotion! That is the escence of being human. Wide variey in any piece is emotion...that which makes music and not patterned sound...lifeless and rigid....DEAD. I'll take emotion and human variability (within scope of the music and NOT a parlor game by the performer) over ANY fixed meter marking. Variability gives LIFE, rigid meter is just sound....flat and lifeless....nonhuman in emotion.
I always liked playing the first part quickly, I liked how different the mood was than in the slow version. Even though my piano teacher didn't appreciate it - now I have an excuse :D
You never need an excuse! If you like playing a piece either quickly or slower, it should be because you like it! :)
Death of music comes when you play for your teacher, not for your own pleasure
Hope this channel gets more attention, it's so useful, helpful and in many cases eye-opening - even for those of us who want to use these sampled instruments in a less traditional scoring way. It's amazing what these small, sometimes seemingly insignificant adjustments make to all our programming. Thanks!
Wished it was music theoretically correct 🙄 see other comments
Hello guys!
Thank you so much for your fantastic lessons!
Regards, Yaroslav.
Our pleasure, Yaroslav! Thank you so much for your nice comments always and that you keep watching our videos.
@@virtual.orchestration I love playing the moonlight sonata on the piano, I first heard it on a drama called flame trees of thika, back in 1980 when I was 10yrs old, the music score says to play triplets on alla breve or cut common time so 2 beats to the bar, as common time is usually 4 beats to the bar, so it is to sound like it is flowing never to be played faster, I find when I play it this way alla breve it humbly speaking sounds right, greetings from wales uk 😀
Is there a reason for all the cuts to a different camera angle?
The first rule of tempo: percussionists always play at a different tempo to that being directed by the conductor. 😊
Well, are they playing faster or slower ? ;)
@Virtual Orchestration no one ever follows the conductor, that's why we need a percussion section ;)
A pity that subtitles are not activated in this video. For those of us who don't know much English, they would be very useful!!!!!!!.
We know there is a problem with subtitles in this video. We will try to find the reason for that, and may need Google's / TH-cam's help on that one. Thanks for letting us know.
Sonata form takes place in a single movement, not spread out over the entirety of a 3/4 movement piece. 😂 This video is a massive disservice to the study of musical form and I sincerely hope this channel will make a correction video.
Correct definition of Sonata form:
In short, ABA (plus an occasional Coda).
More specifically, the Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation take place in a single movement, typically the first in a Sonata, but often in all movements of a Symphony.
For those interested in more accurate information, check out Leonard Bernstein’s famous children’s concert explaining this form using Mozart’s Jupiter Symphony.
Massive disappointment, guys. Do better.
I think one of the issues is that "sonata" (e.g. a piano sonata) can refer to a multi-movement work, but "sonata" (i.e. sonata *form*) refers to a single movement structured with exposition, development, and recapitulation sections. In quick succession, Alex uses the term sonata in both of these senses. What he's saying could've been clarified a bit better between these two uses of the term, but the problem stems from whoever made the accompanying diagram, which conflates the two uses of the term "sonata."
@@GalenDeGraf sorry, but the issue lies in the fact that they didn’t do their research before publishing video. You’ll recall I made no comment on an individual, but rather the production in general. However, you can clearly hear Alex referring to the Coda as a “movement” in that same diagram scene. So Im not sure he’s off the hook either.
The entire premise of the video is that Moonlight Sonata is performed “wrong”, and to back that up they used a discussion of sonata form and tempo. However, they clearly misunderstood what “Quasi una fantasia” was referring to. A fantasia isn’t necessarily a strict musical form, but at this time would have been referring to the fact that it isnt a part of the typical “fast-slow-fast” structure of typical sonatas of the day. Regardless, the fact that the final movement “Presto agitato” is understood to be played so fast means that the two preceding movements should be played in a tempo in relation with it. In other words, since Allegretto (second movement) is quite slower than Presto and Adagio (first movement) is even slower, the idea that it should be played fast to fit into typical sonata form is laughable. If they’re going to make such a controversial statement, it’s best to back it up with a more solid argument.
Hope that makes sense, man. Not trying to call anyone out personally, but Im shocked that an institution like Berklee would put their name on a video that contains so many fallacies….
@@zacharywhitney7295 It is an unfortunate issue to see from a degree-granting program. They should have consulted a music theorist for the video, but now that it's already been uploaded--and presuming they don't want to do a full re-shoot--I think they can at least do a quick update of the diagram at that spot. It doesn't solve all of their sonata issues, but would make that part a lot better. And @virtualorchestration, if you ever do want to consult a professional music theorist, feel free to reach out!
Hey @Galen De Graf and hey @Zachary Whitney. Yes, you both are right and we made a mistake, mixing up the structure of a sonata with the sonata form - which is the structure of only the first movement of a sonata. We will make a new video, talking about our mistake, and we might even reach out to you @Galen for some help in this regard. Please give us a little patience, as it takes time to script, plan, shoot and edit a new video on this behalf. Thank you for your criticism and pointing out this mistake in the video. Creating videos that are meant to be fun and provide some educational value at the same time can be challenging =)
@@virtual.orchestration Great response - I was puzzled too!
Please enable automatic subtitles, a small click for the channel manager a big step for humanity.
thank you!
Hello, we do not know what is wrong with the subtitles with this video and we're really sorry. Subtitles are turned on and we can see the transcription in the channel manager. They are not showing in the video though. Why ? We don't know. We are trying to get in touch with google / TH-cam what is technically going wrong here. Thank you for letting us know.
@@virtual.orchestration Thanks for the answer! It's totally true, there is some change on TH-cam because after the previous comment I made, I uploaded "movie trailers" to my channel 3 and I've been trying to make the subtitles work to this day.
On the other hand, thank you very much for the videos that you upload. The video on the articulation of the cello was even very useful to me, just in the composition of the video that premiered on Friday, so thank you very much again!
2:51 😂
Hey these videos are great. Do not stop making these.
No matter the truth if nobody knows for sure. But this is a fact that the slow tempo version is beautiful, if it's not ridiculously too slow of course. And let's face it: you have a piece in minor with a lot of sophisticated harmonic modulations, even dramatic dissonance spots, and the notation 'adagio sostenuto'...
Is it still Archspire if we reduce the BPM by 20?
Esto me recuerda que una vez Toscanini, se le ocurrió la brillante idea de intrepetar el bolero de Ravel bien rápido en frente del compositor. Y este quedó enojado con Toscanini.
The standard sonata form was fast and exiting, slow and relaxing, medium and "dancy", Beethoven created his original medium, slow, medium, fast form, but then he didn't stop, and made the Moonlight Sonata Mvts, slow, medium, fast. So music historians are wrong, because he did make note that he made the Sonata slow, medium, fast. The fact is, the first Mvt isn't played too slowly, it's played too fast
i like Moonlight 1st mov faster, defitnitely !
I also heard his 5th symphony is supposed to be played twice as fast.
Automatic subtitles are not available in this video. It's a pity I can't understand it. Please activate them if possible, the previous ones if possible
Hey Jorge. We are sorry. It is a technical issue by TH-cam and we are trying to find the mistake here. Subtitles are turned on and we can see them in the channel manager... However they do not show up in the video. We will keep you updated and thank you for letting us know.
@@virtual.orchestration thank you very much!!
Thought provoking but I don't agree with you overall. Adagio Sostenuto is certainly on the slow side. Let's not over think it. It's very beautiful the way it's been played for 200 years. Remember the tempo played today came directly from Beethoven students, particularly Czerny, and down the line. Faster tempi are musically unsatisfying.
Wim Winter's enters the chat...
I read once an article about Beethoven getting the bpm all wrong when he started using them. Apparently because he didn't know how to read the metronome and used the bpm marked below the weight and not above... 😅 Doesn't contribute to the question what Andante sostenuto means in this case, but I found it very funny 🤭
Only thing I know is that some classical pieces are being played TOO Fast in today's era. Some of them I stop and ask myself if someone from the 1700s or 1800s would enjoy that noisy thing being played in a small room, with the Pianos of the time that couldn't keep in tune for more than some few minutes in some cases, like the early PianoFortes. And to be honest I think they wouldn't. They were too "fancy" to praise a guy who sits on a Piano and plays like he is runing from the police, with notes so fast that it becomes anoying to hear. Sometimes, when I face some of those pieces on the internet, I slow them down a little bit and they start to sound like a music piece from that era. And I ask myself: do we really know how the music from the 1700s and 1800s really sounded like, or are we misreading their tempo? A swear to god: some musics from that era are just a bunch of scales played too fast that it has no soul in it, can't bring no pleasure to the ears. I can't belive those great composers would produce those awful noises.
user-ye2sm… You overlook a part of human nature - the urge to compete. Already our kids want to compete: «Dad, are you as strong as me?» «Dad, shall we see who can run the fastest?» According to wikipedia, the Olympic Games are a tradition close to 3000 years old. Pianists + - 200 years ago also competed, not on the sport field, but on the piano. The keys were the pianists sports arena! The pianists did not always prioritise the deep musical expression, we understand this when we study the sheet music more closely. The composers used a number of Italian words for expressions in the slow movements. But in the etudes we find little such thing, there it was to be played very fast - the MM numbers tell us.
In the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon, we read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and «revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies».
The book also says that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists.
Many visited Beethoven at his home, and several describe his playing as virtuoso. When Beethoven, and other composers repeatedly write «Presto» and «Prestissimo» in their compositions, it further confirms the urge to impress with a dazzling technique, the urge to compete against other pianists/composers, as evidenced by the quote from the book. The competition between Liszt and Thalberg in 1837 is mentioned in old sources. Our private taste is worthless against ancient written sources. Bernhard Ruchti puts it this way: «I think that pros and cons should be concidered equally and honestly, and the historical facts should not be confused with personal taste».
Were there not many, many, many printed (eg:news) comments recognizing and seriously questioning his organization of this sonata. That would indicate that it was certainly slow. Why have you not cited these publications. Do these (then) contemporary publications not support your views. Why be objective?
Hmmm.... One and two and three and four and... versus One, two, three, four....
Modern "performance education" seems to be producing human player pianos, not piano players.
Sorry again, but RITARTDANDO is not slow down.
Please it's need to understand the meaning of latin words.
Personally, I long ago dispensed with all the rheory - and just enjoyed the music.
Sorry, but Allegro doesn’t mean just fast. Its meaning dances around- fresh, animated, awake and fast
I think everyone plays everything too way too fast.
why not? I find the 3rd movement played at 155 bpm to sound perfectly beautiful. However, I see most people play the first movement and other songs like Für Elise a bit too fast. Everyone has his own taste in certain pieces. If you find everything to be too fast, i dunno what to tell you.
Oh, yes...confusion between sonata as a form and as a genre...
You could not be more INCORRECT!!!
Let me explain:
Tempo is not based on "time".
It is based ... ON TASTE!!!
Hence, you're ALWAYS wrong with these type of videos.
Moonlight sonata is always played too fast.
It is NOT in traditional form! So much for your credibility!
Bruh. Slow means slow. Everyone tries to do this with Moonlight Sonata and it’s always so embarrassing. You can’t compare tempo variations (rubato) found within Impressionist Music like Claire de Lune to the more traditionally rigid romantic style of Moonlight sonata. To say that one piece is meant to utilize rubato (an impressionist piece) somehow justifies going against obvious tempo markings within a romantic piece reeks of trying to justify your clickbait. Take this video down it’s unbelievably misleading.
Good to see you've missed the point here 😅
I'm sure I did xd@@alexlamy6102
It's kind of silly to say a certain tempo is wrong if the piece sounds good even at dramatically different tempos. For example, the famous song "Stardust" was originally conceived and composed by Hoagy Carmichael as a fast, jaunty tune. Only later was its tempo greatly decreased to become the slow, haunting, and beautiful dreamy piece that most people recognize.
Next time you analyze something, P, please use a real piano or at least a better piano sample as when you play it fast it sounds absolutely horrible and uncharacteristic of a piano sound
Sorry, but clair is not Light.
Please do translate in a right way.
such a pointless video
Very interesting, thank you!
(But your guitar tone is just awful :D )
It was initially worse! I tried to fight for something to make it better, but I wasn't allowed 🤦🏻♂