Atheist Debates - The American Church in 1965
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- I stumbled across the July 27, 1965 edition of Look magazine at an antique store. The primary article talked about the state of the Protestant church after the Second Vatican Council. It's an interesting speculative take that got some things right and some wrong - but shows a dramatically different state of affairs from today.
_Look_ reminds me of this old thing:
"That's life."
"What's life?"
"It's a magazine."
"How much?"
"Ten cents."
"That's a lot."
"That's life."
I am mesmerized by Matt's tetragrammaton inspired, industrial grade microphone.
Great subject. The role that many American churches, especially the Southern Baptist Convention, had in America's institution of slavery including being on the wrong side of civil rights movement is rarely discussed.
That is depressing.
I'm Italian and Americans from outside seem to have completely lost their minds...
At the same time I fear that we are going in the same direction here.
Far right is rising in Europe as well.
I am scared.
I hope you all are and will stay well
I was raised to go to church, but I never believed no matter the force, shame, guilt, fear tactics that were used, but what worked to truly verify to my kid self was my mother standing up during mass to chastise a Catholic priest who had just yelled at a little boy for dropping his few coins for the collection plate. My mom gave him a loud and long lecture on Jesus and children. She left that church and found a more “modern” Catholic Church. One that allowed her to get communion because she was divorced. So I saw early on that clergy and their followers pick and choose what they will accept. My mother, still Catholic, but now in yet another Catholic Church that doesn’t follow the Vatican, is fine with so much horrible stuff, but harming children and belittling women she felt crossed lines. That always made me kinda roll my eyes because there is so much that’s awful still! It seems that this is the ebb and flow of religiosity.
Of course and u shouldn't believe catholism is from hell.
@@Mark-zd5dl i don’t believe in hell. Religions are from humans.
@@trishayamada807 yeah religion is man made Jesus never said be a Baptist Protestant Methodist Presbyterian Pentecostal whatever He said Follow Me. Hell is real literal place deep under the earth same as Heaven above the firmament.
@@Mark-zd5dl LoL. Cute story.
@@trishayamada807 ikr crazy part it's true and if u deny Jesus Christ and die in your sin without being born again enteral conscious torment awaits u were the feeling of guilt hopelessness and regret with be worse than the lava devouring u. ✌️
Voltaire started something beautiful in France in the 1700s, and his skeptical courage continues to reverberate through history.
@@carlhobson4083 Wow! Your knowledge and wisdom are f****** impressive. You are a TH-cam comment hero. Thank you so much for filling us plebes in.
Jeez-Louise, you ARE a gifted one, aren't you?
@@carlhobson4083 so, Carl, what is your better alternative? Christianity? God Drowning puppies and pregnant women, commanding rape, genocide and slavery, and rewarding honest reasoned dissent with eternal punishment?
@@carlhobson4083 The remains of Voltaire and Jean-Jacques Rousseau are in the Pantheon in Paris. The Revolution saw them as some of the great figures of the Enlightment.
There were some rumors that their tombs were profanated by the royalists, not because of french lives losses, but simply because they represented what they hated: equality, democracy...
Their tombs were open in 1897, to prove the rumor false. Their skeletons were actually intact.
@@carlhobson4083 Some historians also claim that millions of people died because Charlotte Corday (Marie-Anne Charlotte de Corday d'Armont) stabbed Jean-Paul Marat in the bathtub with a salami slicer. (You know that has to hurt.) Just because you don't know what you are talking about doesn't mean Voltaire was stupid.
@@carlhobson4083 I can't remember CNN ever telling the mob to kill so and so. They certainly never listed thousands and tried to get the mob to kill them, unlike Marat.
"some people say, like you? "
No, not me. I am not a historian. I never said she caused the Reign of Terror.
I don't know if insane is the proper term for Miss Corday, but she certainly had a skewed perception of reality. If anyone is the villain of the story, I would say Marat is, even though he is also a victim. If Corday hadn't stabbed him, he would have died of natural causes in a few months and there probably would have been less violence.
Been a while since I avidly tuned into your channel Matt. This was a great video to come back to! Thanks!
It's raining men.
Super fascinating- thanks for sharing, Matt!
So thankful for the prominent atheists who have large platforms now. I was one of those struggling Christians who could no longer see it as anything but a lie. Thankfully I found TH-cam videos like this to help me give myself the freedom to believe what I already knew.
The single event which truly united the Christendom of that era was the convenient emergence of the "Common Enemy" presented by the Stonewall Riot of Jun 28, 1969.
Fear of Other is a powerful cohesive - and profitable to boot.
I'd say moreso Roe v Wade
Yep and x cc
@@tph2010 Not quite as titillating though, and so - not quite as lucrative.
@@tph2010 actually, I think most protestant denominations supported abortion rights early on. I'm not sure when that flipped, though
In '65 I had just arrived at a U.S. Air Force base in the U.K. I had been an atheist five years or so. I was nearly 20 years old. Priests were merrily raping children and the Protestants I knew were still feeling secure and had seldom noticed others like me had flown the coop. Nor had apologists noticed they had stuff to apologize for. Christianity was more relaxed as I remember it, secure in the assumption that everyone would snuggle into their lie as they always had. When, in fact, birds like me were gone, never to return. Christianity is different now, more frantic, more insecure and desperately trying to drag its way back to the 19th Century. I agree that's where it belongs but unfortunately for everyone time doesn't flow that way.
Great comment. Thanks for sharing.
Whilst I am sure that we agree that one is one too many, how many priests do you know who were interfering with children?
I was born in Essex, England. I know of one priest (actually an Anglican vicar) who interfered with an adolescent male. I know of maybe a dozen women who were mis-used by US airmen. OK, so there were many thousands of US airmen and only a few score of priests, but it was wrong then, as it still is today, to tar everyone with the same brush.
@@harryfaber You are not wrong in your comment, IMO, however, the rapes by priests and clergy, of children, is so much worse because these “men of God” claim the moral high ground, preach about avoiding sin, spread guilt around normal sexuality, etc. They probably use the name of god and goodness to manipulate their victims into the rape and keeping quiet after. The hypocrisy is too much. I’m not saying priests have to be perfect, but when they use their priestly powers to cause such harm, the powers within their church needed to ensure it did not happen again and in this regard they failed horribly. If you claim the moral high ground but act so repugnantly, you don’t deserve respect. And I think you are under estimating the amount of abuse. How much is never reported due to shame and guilt? Even in sexual assaults not involving religion, their is much shame within the victim and way to little reporting of the crime. Add religion and I’m sure the numbers go down significantly.
@@learningisfun2108 Folk who study and understand the Bible will agree. 'Shepherds' are expected to be, if not perfect', as close as can be, and Christ (just accept briefly that He existed for this argument) was quite clear that 'it would be better for a man to be cast into the sea with a millstone than to harm a child'. So for a priest, preacher, minister or any other religious leader to abuse children or vulnerable people is truly awful. If you believe in Christ, and preach the Gospel, you simply have no excuse.
As a child, folk around me were various sorts of Protestants, and they told me all about Catholic priests abusing their position. In my recent years, since passing 55, I have read and researched much on that subject. Sadly, it isn't just a problem in the Catholic Church, predominantly men in various positions of authority and leadership find that their assorted powers and authorities can be used for many personal satisfactions, sexual abuse only being one of them. My understanding, which may be wrong, or maybe close to being right, is that in general, priests and clergy are not nearly as bad as some other groups. However, the press and media seem to highlight them more than doctors, teachers and so on.
@@harryfaber Thanks for replying but you really missed my point about clergy being moral standard bearers, moral judges, and may even claim to have tickets to heaven. Other people in positions of authority are not claiming that they are God’s representatives. IMO, that makes their crimes so much worse.
"Man cannot live without meaning" - and yet I've never felt a need for those ultimate "meanings". I'm thinking the people who think they can't think so because they've been conditioned to think that.
I was 5 when that came out.
Thanks for uploading these!
I've really missed these uploads of Matt; now we have 3 uploads in one day? He's spoiling us.
Loved this historical subject of the video Matt. I hope you can do more of these.
I spent some time helping a friend compile a collection of catalogues, books and other paper ephemera and was amazed at how little the public knows about the country. Much of the collection was donated to a local university.
It is dispiriting how little curiousity is permitted to thrive In the current culture.
Thanks to the prominent atheist speakers that Matt mentioned.
The end of religion won't occur though, sadly.
Some poisons can't be gotten rid of.
As recent as the 2011 census, Christianity was the largest religion in Scotland. In the 2011 census, 53.8% of the Scottish population identified as Christian (declining from 65.1% in 2001). I can't wait for the new census.
25% of the society being religious is way better than 50% being religious.
“ But mark this: There will be terrible times last days. People will be:
Lovers of themselves.
Lovers of Money.
Boastful
Proud
Abusive
Disobedient to parents.
Ungrateful
Unholy
Without love.
Unforgiving
Slanderous
Without self control.
Brutal.
Not lovers of the good.
Treacherous.
Rash.
Conceited.
Choosing love of pleasure of love of God.
Having a form of godliness but denying it’s power.
In the LAST DAYS.
@@thomasarmstrong2590
We've been hearing this nonsense from you lot for almost 2000 years. The current year is the Last days according to you lot.
@@suffist Oh sir. Please hear this.
“ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying ‘ where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2 Peter 3:3-4.
But a word of encouragement as well.
“ And ye shall seek me and find me, when you search for me with all your heart.”
Jeremiah 29:13
Great work once again! Would like to see more like this- historical research and integration into contemporary events. One very small thing for improvement - Camus; the last letter is silent.
Cammoo!
Even if I didn’t care, seeing someone excited about something like Matt in this vid would be worth the watch.
I enjoyed this. A little bit different. You said it best at the end. Kids have so much information at their fingertips these days, I really can't see religion surviving much longer.
As a former behavioral therapist for children, it's kind of amazing what just a bit of indoctrination and information control will do to make a child vehemently rebuke you for making a simple unintentional slight about their religion's god figure. Sadly I suspect the more we gain our voices as atheist and it becomes more clear just how numerous we are, the terribly desperate among the religious will push back in equal force as a means of not only self righteous indignation, but of self preservation. : /
But one can hope.
The year I was born.. And yes, I look just as haggered as that old magazine.. lol
The year I graduated from high school. The day before I turned 18. Being 18 and male in 1965 was, shall we say, involving.
That Camus quote was taken way out of context to give it a sort of Kierkegaard flair. Camus believed that religion was philosophical suicide and should be avoided, in the same way that physical suicide should be. The only way to beat the absurdity is to fully embrace it as such.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy. That is to say he doesn't end his life by killing himself or ignores the dread by believing in a fantasy. He knows he is rolling that rock up the hill daily and embraces the futility as absurd.
Sorry I have to be pedantic but at 19:25 Matt says it's been 53 years since July, 1965 when he means 55 years. Other than the small error, I loved the video! Make more like these!
I was 18, and already an atheist for over five years.
... People make the meaning.
Yes we give ourselves purpose, and that purpose can change anytime we like.
Matt tends to use the analogy: What purpose is a car, when its only to wind up in a scrap yard in the distant future.
We give the car viable and wanted purpose for us. A car does have a purpose, even if it doesn't go forever.
A very fascinating look at a critical moment in theological history. Coming from the dawn of the 80s and having been piecing together christianity's real history, not the whitewash I recieved, I too have wondered that same question on many a day.
Pastors are like used car salesman. We sprayed the engine to get rid of all the oil leaks and then tell you isn't this a great car just look how clean the engine is. There job is to sell the car, not to tell you hey check things out before you buy.
Plenty of life left. How 'bout a test drive?
A bit off topic, but Matt should do a video about antique shops and antiquing tips.
Matt is the best ! I'd rather listen to Matt than any of the great atheist academics with all of their big degrees.
Camus can do but Sartre is smartre!
This was a REALLY good one!!
🙏🏽❤️🙏🏽
I recently took a fancy collecting Norman Rockwell pictures, and was surprised he was not only making funny, heartwarming "cartoons", but also a picture like "The Problem we have to live with".
It is a strike of genius in its power by simplicity: A small black girl in a white dress, walking along a wall (where something is smeared on, and in front and after her are the bodies (heads not visible) of three FBI agents -
guarding the girl on her way to school.
I had not expected such social criticism from someone who otherwise depicts a cheesy ideal world of traditional values.
I just researched that painting. Very interesting. Thanks for your post.
@@learningisfun2108 Thanks.
There is another one: "Moving In (New Kids In The Neighborhood)"
What strikes me at his pictures is that he tells a story about the people in all his pictures.
I want to hear about the other Man From U.N.C.L.E.
I assume that's referring to Illya Kuriakin, as played by David McCallum...a very interesting character. A Russian communist as one of the good guys in a Cold War era American tv series.
I had the hots for Illya almost as bad as for George Harrison!
Matt 3.0 - Better with age, but still a young man. Love your smile. ❤️😀👍
Very thought provoking.
One small correction, your math was wrong. You said 53 years - it was 56 years since the article you found was written. As an engineer, it is what I focus on. Interesting and thought provoking addition.
10:57 "AL-burt KAM-iss." Whew. That's the most American pronunciation of Albert Camus I've ever heard.
I know this is an insignificant detail, but if my math is correct, isn’t it 56 years later? Not 53 years later.☺️
What did I miss-or did you leave out an explanation of what ministers and priests believed about God that was so different from what church members believed? Was it an abstract God vs. The Old Man in the Sky?
When that came out I was in my mid teens and already largely non-religious. I was turned off by the extent to which religion was used to control people - especially the "unwashed masses". Having grown up in Quebec I was especially disgusted by the extent to which the Roman Catholic church controlled the French Quebecois. When flying around Quebec you have no trouble spotting all the little towns - all are marked by massive churches with tall steeples built on the backs of folks who barely could feed their families. I could go on for hour. That was even before most of my science training.
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.
I'm so glad Matt has started doing asmr.
Lmao
That's about 7 years before I was born.
Camus isn't Cammus, he's Cammoo.
The Time magazine Is God Dead? cover was published in 1966. Seems like the theme increased.
Disrespecting Illya Kuryakin?
Hmph.
Think a lot of what happened was the group dynamics. More fundamentalist joins a group and the ones on opposite end ebb away. Do that to all the churches everywhere for a couple generations and you get a mess. The ones who would object to the worse stuff are no longer in those groups. Or if they are they are such a slim minority it does not matter. Even the average member may object to some stances, but would probably keep silent in a lot of cases. You lose that ability to argue from within group, and we all know that arguing with others usually solidifies their own positions. That is even more the case in a deep position.....Like your own self identity. These are the Christians who really take it seriously and are completely bound to what they believe. I don't think any of us atheists are really in the same boat.
God point regarding the moderates leaving and the radicals taking a larger majority. This has happened to the Republican Party under Trump to such a degree that to get his support you need to believe and preach that the last election was stolen from him. They are in a bind because Trump can raise so much money that a Republican incumbent will lose in a primary without Trump’s support. It may well mean the end of the party as it is now know because they may not be able to win elections as they become more radical. Do churches have the same problem? Is this a good thing?
@10:57: I hope that was merely a sarcastic mispronunciation of Camus.
Like the podcast format
Honestly sounds like a sales strategy seminar for a corporation.
Interesting talk
For perspectiveon Matt vs article... He was born around 1970. 5 years after publication. So his initial church years (age 5 - 18) were about1975 - 1988.
'fix their imagination' ... kinda says it all
The reason church attendance is on the decline is the same reason all other attendance is on decline: Screens.
People use to go to church because there was nothing better to do. Same with the circus, sports venues, etc.
Once TV was invented, all outside activities took a nosedive in attendance. Then came 24-hour TV, then cable, then Internet.
Now people have entertainmentin their own home. They no longer need to go outside to find it.
The other man from U.N.C.L.E: Ducky
very interesting.
Matt, ya shoulda been a preacher! A most excellent sermon, indeed.
Finding that Look magazine is a perfect example of serendipity, BTW.
Lovely piece, Matt. (ps Now tell parents exactly what they should tell their kids that they can't be when they grow up, and watch your putative limitations be exceeded.)
That's it exactly: "Why doesn't God correct this [the mess that is divided Christianity]? Why is it that these devout men of a multitude of different beliefs are floundering and arguing with each other and desperately trying to make their religious beliefs relevant to the public when God could come in and make it relevant to everyone instantly?" (12:18)
This is perfectly in tune with what ex-Evangelical atheist John Loftus has written in The End of Christianity: "If there is a God who wants us to believe in him, there would not be so much religious diversity spread around the globe. The probability that the Christian God exists is also inversely proportional to the amount of religious diversity that exists (i.e., the more religious diversity there is, then the less probable it is that God exists), and there is way too much religious diversity to suppose that he does" (p. 86).
That is one of the primary reasons I washed my hands of religion some 20 years ago. There was no making sense of it all.
My eyes rolled when the article's author related that activists involved in trying to resolve the crisis in religion believe that "we are at the dawn of a new reformation" (3:27). Tell me another! A new reformation could only end up the way the old one did: divided--precisely because there is no God.
I was born 6 months before the article came out.
I was 18 one day after the article came out. Think of the implications.
"Can the church survive?" (in 1965). If only the answer were clearly "NO!" at the time. I only hope this was a question had a time-lapsed answer and the time-lapse is short!
I was 1yo
Fantastic
Ah, the irony of people who believe they have a personal relationship with a God, telling atheists that they're arrogant. It always makes me shake my head
Takes one to know one, as an ex-christian.
I was five, in 1965 my parents took us to a Unitarian Church in Syracuse, NY, which was for me simply another Kindergarten , I never once heard about "God" until I was 8 . The idea of a God has never made any sense to me except as old mythic stories.
Even more Matt! Yay! 👍Oh, and why did the Romans feed their lions Christian meat? Uhh... low sodium? Gluten-free? lol 😁
There is a big difference between the church then and now.
Back then it was young children, and retired adults (I suspect it was grand parents taking their grandkids to church).
The ages of say 16 to 50, there was a HUGE gap in the church. These were the working class, and those who would rather drink beer on weekends or go for country drives, than attend any church.
Everyone knew the church was made only for the very young and the the very old (not that 50 is very old).
The in between ages were meant for the rebellious young at heart, career minded people, and of course academics. It was meant for the theatre and the real beginnings of night clubs, I mean disco fever was about to go full swing LOL
There is a difference between then and now. As now we see the church is cantered around middle age, with a lot of the oldies taking time to finally wake up to reality, and the youth being so busy with social media, sports, health, fun etc etc. Actually lets face it the youth have got it made these days. The church has changed, both young and old have left it behind as yesterdays news.
Camus is pronounced Kamoo.( that's the French for you!)
📣I felt it was my duty to announce that I was The 420 like 👍
Yes when you see evangelicals today they don't fallow the same christian faith that jesus preached .
Yet another proof of MAN CREATING GOD. The church has been redesigning and redefining god since the very beginning.
What does god want? What does god think? What does god expect of man?
Coincidentally, god ALWAYS ends up wanting, thinking and expecting what those who run the church want, think and expect.
Curious?!
there are as many gods, as, asses in pews.
Stanley Kubrick?!?
In California, religious folks aren’t very obnoxious for the reasons that you’re talking about for the most part.