I just love how they embrace at the start and finish. Nothing moves me more than two people who still care for each other deeply despite having differing opinions. This is how civil discourse should be done.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:01 *🌟 Introduction to Speakers and Background* - Ayaan Hirsi Ali's journey from Somalia to the Netherlands and her shift from Islam to atheism and then Christianity, - Richard Dawkins' prominence as an atheist and his public response to Hirsi Ali's conversion. 03:43 *😔 Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Personal Crisis and Conversion* - Hirsi Ali's struggle with depression and self-loathing leading to a turning point through prayer, - Her newfound faith in Christianity and the sense of connection and humility it brought. 06:53 *🤔 The Nature of Belief: Dawkins and Hirsi Ali* - Dawkins questions the literal belief in Christian doctrines such as the resurrection and virgin birth, - Hirsi Ali's perspective on faith as a choice and the wisdom she finds in Christianity's teachings. 12:02 *🌍 Christianity, Islam, and Western Civilization* - Hirsi Ali discusses Christianity's role in countering Islam and supporting Western values, - The difference between personal belief and societal impact of Christianity. 18:18 *🏛️ The Cultural and Moral Debate* - The consequences of secularizing society and the vacuum it creates, - Dawkins and Hirsi Ali explore the coexistence of reason and faith. 29:10 *🎻 The Role of Faith and Reason* - The discussion on how faith and reason can coexist and complement each other, - The impact of faith on human connection and civilization, and Dawkins' perspective on atheism's role. 31:17 *🌱 The Nature of Faith and Truth* - Discussion on the difference between comfort from faith and the truth of existential claims, - The debate on whether the comforting aspects of religion make its existential claims true. 33:46 *💭 Life After Death and Cultural Christianity* - Exploration of beliefs about life after death and the concept of a soul, - Dawkins' stance as a cultural Christian and the discussion on the utility of religion in society. 37:26 *⚖️ Islam, Christianity, and Societal Influence* - Hirsi Ali and Dawkins discuss the societal impact of Christianity and Islam, - Concerns about the influence of Islam in Western societies and the perceived decline of Christian influence. 42:08 *📜 Enlightenment and Secular Humanism* - Debate on the origins of secular humanism and its relationship with Christianity, - Discussion on the moral framework provided by religions versus secular humanism. 50:15 *🔍 Comparing Holy Books and Moral Teachings* - Comparison of the teachings of the Bible and the Quran, especially concerning morality, - Discussion on the unique characteristics of Jesus and Muhammad in their respective religions. 56:48 *🚨 Concerns About Radical Islam and Wokeism* - Shared concerns about the spread of radical Islamist ideologies in the West, - Discussion on the impact of these ideologies on university campuses and the response to global events. 01:00:22 *🌐 Clash of Civilizations* - Discussion on the idea of a clash of civilizations and the lack of a counter-message from secular or atheist humanism, - Concerns about the denial of cultural conflict and the rise of Islamist ideologies in Western societies. 01:02:47 *🛑 Muslim Rebellion and Reform* - Ayaan Hirsi Ali's outreach to Muslims and ex-Muslims, encouraging awareness of the dangers of Islamist ideologies, - Emphasis on the need to oppose totalitarian ideologies that exploit freedoms to promote their agendas. 01:05:19 *🚨 Warning Against Islamist Threats* - Ali's warnings about the potential consequences of Islamist ideologies gaining power, referencing groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Hamas, - A call to recognize and combat these threats to prevent the spread of barbaric practices. 01:06:21 *💉 Vaccination Metaphor for Ideological Combat* - Dawkins' metaphor of combating harmful ideologies with a "mild form of the virus" versus advocating for rationality and enlightenment, - The conversation concludes with this analogy, highlighting different approaches to addressing ideological threats. Made with HARPA AI
I've heard many Christian apologists and modern intellectuals speak about Richard Dawkins, but this was my first time actually listening to him. What struck me is that Dawkins seems to have a deeper understanding of the significance of God than many Christians. He even said it himself-if it were true, it would change everything. (22:30) If more Christians held such a profound view of God, the world would likely be a better place. May the Holy Spirit open Richard Dawkins' mind to the reality of God.
The world would be a better place if we can undo all the harm done to us by Heaven. Until then, if that time ever comes, we have been enslaved by heaven. First thing heaven did to us was => Deny us the tree of Life => Shorten our livespan => Afflict us with Territorial disputes Humans are trapped in a prison the bible tells us was designed by God of Heaven in self defence. The problem facing us, is that we don't even know where Heaven is, Astrologically. And we don't know what Heaven will do if we Foolishly show up to the gates of heaven unprepared.
Lol, are you trying to say that Christians are the problem in this world? Being a Christian doesn’t mean you will make the world better. If you are a Christian, you know that the Bible says Christians don’t belong to this earth, and according to Jesus, Christians will be hated by the world because of Him. It’s funny how you speak for Christians when you have zero knowledge about Christianity.
If Dawkins has a deeper understanding of God, then why is he still an atheist? And you said if Christians had a better understanding of God like Dawkins, the world would be a better place? You're making it look like the world is a mess because of Christians. Do you know this world belongs to Satan? Do you know Jesus said, 'They will hate you because of me?' Do you know Jesus said those who believe in him don't belong in this world? You are talking about the Bible on your channel, and you don't know all these? And do you know according to the Bible, the world will worsen?
1 Corinthians 1:18 in the Bible, wrote and i quote, *“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us(who believes) who are being saved it is the power of God."*
@rogernichols1124 Not if the son, was much as committed and an author of it. Jesus is God, same objective the method does not seem very comfortable to our human mind. But God is the one who death cannot limit.
@@rogernichols1124 What happened to Jesus was an act of justice and mercy for all of humanity. Had it been merely a human doing that to another human it would be different. But it wasn’t. And it couldn’t have been, because a human couldn’t raise another human from the dead. Jesus is alive and His life gives ALL who believe in Him; life. It’s not something that can be understood fully until you accept Him. Once you do and you’re filled with the Holy Spirit, He’ll speak to your heart from within. And all of a sudden all of the things that you didn’t understand before, you will understand. His love will overflow from your heart and you’ll understand why He did what He did. It was for you….
The obnoxious clapping when each side thinks their team has scored a point is annoying and a sign of the times. I’d be curious to know how many people in the crowd were actually open to having their mind changed that day or if they were there just to confirm their bias.
@@JuntusOrothonjust because you are the same, doesn't mean anyone else is! We're not all sheep! The sad thing is, Dawkins may have convinced her to leave Christianity in a months time and as she admitted it was the only thing that saved her life, will he, you and the other atheists be happy if she kills herself. Pathetic
Ayaan received faith by humility. It’s impossible to have faith with a heart of pride and arrogance but rather by a heart which is “clothed” with humility: “for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble”.
I went through the same journey like Ayaan, it’s a spiritual rebirth, humbling experience where like God introduced himself to me, just like how israelites saw God’s work by parting the red sea.
@@tommedia7742I think his point is that these debates aren’t meant to be for entertainment. It’s not a show. I agree that the clapping should be held at the end
@Von.NorthEnd claping on the end for both speakers will never show who get more support from the audience. Even the time of claping to favor one of them, will no prove that person was right or with better arguments.
@@Shaliaj7 The point is that its not important to know who convinced the audience there. The debate is not a democratic process thats decided by the non-random set of people attending.
I been praying for near 56 years now, baptized, went to church, I'm now 57 and finally have realized it was all BS lies! Now I have started to meditate and it helps me maintain a stable emotional state 56 years of God zero only pain
What a miserable existence to be you. My life keeps getting more and more full of joy. When you understand God's Word, you know that to live is Christ, to die is gain! God speaks to you through consistently reading scripture, you speak to God through prayer. I notice you didn't include "reading" in your "things I did" list. So basically for 56 years all you did was talk At God. You never talked With Him. And that's why you've had 56 years of pain. Please repent of your arrogance. Humble yourself, seek Him through His Word, and you will find joy beyond measure.
Nice! What finally woke you up? I would like to help deprogram / shatter the spell for as many religious people as possible and help them out of the web of lies But it isn't always easy to find what actually works or registers, lol
Thanks so much for organizing this conversation. And also big thanks to the man in the middle. Great questions. Exactly what I needed clarification on.
The test of a 'Christian' is not so much a theological or even a Christological assertion that can fit into a neat 'orthodoxy' , but that they can convey , somehow , the living Christ to another person , and this woman does that for me in an extraordinary and real way .
You clearly have some portion of conscience telling you how unintelligible and illogical are your assertions about the man god who can be crucified. I am baffled how humans can buy the most illogical thing to 'save himself' even if it's a false salvation. You're following Paul, not Jesus. Jesus taught that the highest command is Shema, i.e. Oneness of God and Jesus fell on his face to worship the Father in heaven just like Muslims do. Jesus gave the criteria for the true prophet as teachings about the God (Oneness and the Law of God) and he also said the true prophet will recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Now let's examine Paul's teachings. Yes, he claimed Jesus to be the Messiah but Paul out of nowhere claimed that the Law is abolished. Wasn't Jesus circumsized? Wasn't he doing sabbath? Wasn't Jesus avoiding pork? What about Paul? All the opposites! Now examine Islam. Islam recognises Jesus as the Messiah. Islam confirmed sabbath for the Jews and also introduced light version of prohibitive Laws for the whole mankind.
The "test" of a christian is that they believe in christianity and its foundational documents (the bible). Modify that to being a nice person as you seem to, then there is no need or justification for the religion itself.
A cake will always have a baker, but there are countless religions that lack one. You can appreciate the Mormons' family centric traditions without believing Joseph Smith
The only difference is that we can observe the baker’s contributions first hand. I’d say cultural Christianity is more analogous to enjoying a slice of cake with specific ingredients that you have been raised to be familiar with. There’s no inherent meaning or purpose behind it, but it is sentimental to you in it’s own way.
Am a synthetic biologist created first transgenic mosquito in Africa and yet am deep spiritual Christian who is 100% dedicated my life to jesus. No conflict!
Physician here trained and practicing in the united states. Highly educated in the maths and sciences and I agree completely. So many athiests are foolish thinking faith in Christ and reason are incompatible or believers must be uneducated idiots.
I can see how it could lead to depression and despair if a religion was your identity growing up and then suddenly you threw it all away without having something equivalent to take its place. That’s losing a big part of yourself.
I’m a former atheist that was raised secular without basically any religious background. I firmly believe that everyone has a God-sized emptiness inside their hearts that only He can fill. We don’t always tune into this - we’re busy with our everyday lives! But if you ever take a moment to really think about it, I think you will find the longing.
No, she is a political/social/psychological Christian. She joined Christianity because of her hour of weakness and because she is afraid of wokeness/Islam/China. It's the same as man joining Christianity on his deathbed.
i felt soo too but her spirituality also comes from recognising the spiritual quality from the moral foundation with which christianity has civilised the west. to lose this quality would create a spiritual void of the west, thereby causing a rise in Islam which from her experience is quite revolting. If christianity produces this quality, then Christ who embodies it is who she has decided to look up to, indeed looks like she has found her cross and will follow the Christ.
Of course when you first become a Christian it is purely a spiritual experience and then become theological and doctrinal as you mature. She’s accepted God spiritually and she’s been living a life of an atheist, science, and naturalism. Now there’s no doubt that God exist and she will discover God on a personal level and God will guide her in her theology and doctrine.
You mean she has no reason to believe what she believes. She does because it's expedient for her (makes her feel better) or she thinks it's expedient for western civilisation. Whether it is actually true or not doesn't seem to have much interest for her. In my opinion that's a dishonest intelectual stance.
Man, well done to the Christians who have met Dawkins and treated him with so much love and respect that he said, ' I've never met a vicar that I didn't like. They're always very, very nice people.' 16:50
She isn't She lied to her Dutch citizenship which was exposed She endorsed trump racism She supports wars against other people She wants western colonialism (funny how she Hates china which is atheist mind u ) She endorsed pragerU well known misinformation site She supports trump nonsense
@@ProjectCreativityGuy96 A discussion focuses on exchanging ideas or debating a specific topic, often with a goal in mind. A conversation is a more casual exchange of thoughts or information, often for connection or enjoyment.
@@ShawnMenchaca She rather confuses me: 1. Her Christianity is in relation to Islam, Not as an independently chosen option 2. Does it mean if She did not get to the bottom she surely would not have changes religion.!!?
Religious people still allergic to straightforward questions, lol. Dawkins: Virgin births, risen from the dead... real or not? Ayaan: I choose to believe, it's a personal decision... Dawkins: You're saying virgin births and miracles are a thing? please confirm Ayaan: I have accepted Jesus into my heart... Dawkins: For the love of God just answer the question, do you really think it is true that Jesus rose from the dead?!?! Do you seriously believe Jesus was born from a Virgin? True or false?! Jordan Peterson: Well... it depends on what you mean by "true" Where this man gets the patience, I will never know Cheers to Richard Dawkins
Love Ayaan’s point of view on how lost our young people are. Rational humanism. It van also be called a moral vacuum. If there is a vacuum in my soul, I can invite God in, or leave it to my own devices, and unwittingly I’m letting the devil in. As Ayaan says, it’s a choice. Yes Ayaan. I am a Christian. I will continue to pray for you, as you rely on your Savour to walk with you on this journey we call life: all the ups and downs and everything in between, and that God will use your talents and giftedness for His honour and glory. Amen.
Dawkins: I mock Christianity and that makes it false. Dawkins is the master of ad hominems. His books sound like a person who believes in God and is mad at Him.
Jesus is the highest act of moral ethics ever recorded by human history. Show me a most influential historial Ethic wave. Jesus by his acts rose to the category of God, since common homosapiens are so nasty, egoistic and cowards, that Jesus seems more of an evolution of the Sapiens. Certainly, we could say Jesus was the only true "Human" Ever, all the rest of us? Just mammals with fear to death, envy, and other trash.
@modernjosephus356 Right mockery doesn't prove truth it just shows ignorance. I can easily mock atheist does that mean atheism is false? The evidence of what we believe is the only thing that proves truth🙏
Its betrayal, Ayaan. Rationality is for common good but the selfish gene triumphed at the end. She dodged all the indefensibles and jumped track to emphasise personal feelings. The standard template all over again. Not sure if i am more angry or sad.
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14
Ayan is incompetent and sharing podium with Richard is even worse. She chose to believe- she chose not to believe and then chose to believe in Christ and who knows she returns back to her original faith, since she had a good break for 20 years.
It seems like he is saying to her "I can't believe you believe this. I don't get how someone I respect so much can change their mind" it is beautiful. As a Christian I fail to see God in front of me and treat God like a tv show or chore. There is a real struggle here and it is what I take for granted sometimes.
I read "Infidel" and loved it. I consider Ayaan a hero but, listening to her talk in this conversation, makes me think she has been infected by Jordan Peterson. Cannot give a straight answer to a simple question. Such a great conversation between two fantastic people.
"Come to me all who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me for I am gentle and humble in heart and you shall find rest for your soul." --Jesus Matthew 11:28-29
@@FinsUp22 ALL of "us"! ;) YOU, show US He hasn't done anything! LOL! (Christianity is the most persecuted Faith in History yet it is here. What Year is it?)
@@FinsUp22 Jesus Lives, I once prayed for God to raise my dead pup, and it didn't happen, that broke my tiny mind. But coming closer to God, He is real, so real that language is difficult to explain Him, a Spiritual God to whom nothing is impossible yet you cannot control and harness. Full of compassion and love and yer justice and truth. We have come a long way to be here.
@@FinsUp22 The bible is generally recognized as historical and accounts for the many miracles that he performed. In addition, there are many independent Roman Pagan and hostile Jewish accounts outside of the bible that document the miracles that Jesus performed (although they credit them as "magic") His character is verified across religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. Also, Jesus is the most influential person of all time spreading the message of Love, and saving peoples lives on earth and beyond, so he has some cred.
atheist abdoooools do not debate. They're like muslim abdooools lie all the time. It's not possible to debate a liar. And taqqyya is an intergal part of pdf file atheist religion as it is in islame. Actually, there's no obvious difference between atheist religion and islame. Mupedohammad or mao. No difference.
@@Shaliaj7 I was surprised that Dawkins put up with monologue! Christians seems to do the same thing under nonsensical discourse: evangelize. This is what Ayaan did. Wasted my time.
@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt but we’re talking about personal morals and their relation to what’s good/evil. Objective morality is something different which wasn’t the subject of my question. You can believe something is good and another evil, and base your morals around a personal opinion, but it doesn’t mean everybody will agree though. So I ask the question again : How can someone believe in morals, but doesn’t have a personal opinion on what’s good/evil ?
yeah its hard to reason with someone who has had a trumatic experience and their religion saved them reguardless if the religion is actaully true or not, its true to them. Imo theres was no point in her coming on a pannel with dawkins as it was a personal experience and she litterally says to the audience its all subjective. im not taking away from her story she deserves a platform just not this one
As a Christian, I find Ayaan Hirsi Ali talking about her conversion to Christianity cringe and a little frustrating. I'm surprised that so many other commenters on this video, even atheist ones, are supporting her here. Dawkins is on point here. You can't become a Christian because you like the society or think it's the only solution to the world's problems--you have to believe, not choose to believe, in the Trinity, that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles during his ministry and rose bodily from the dead. One should come to that belief, like I have, on an EVIDENTIAL basis, not on the basis of liking the society. I have always liked, for instance, the Christian ethos and the teachings of Jesus, but I'm a Christian (having been an atheist) because I think we have fantastic historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection and reliability of the New Testament. Christianity, for someone who considers themself Christian, should be considered FACT as well as faith.
I actually used to think these way. However, I am African who witnessed real travails and sufferings, of others, not necessarily my own, I had to rethink on this. People came to Christ then and now for different reasons, such as healing, hunger, desperation and also for love. Even his disciples all deserted him but still came back. And he told Peter, feed my sheep. In Africa, food is an issue to many and offering food, medical help, job, education etc. could be an act of great love. Or protection from violence and terrorism. People have different paths to God. My journey into Christianity was more of a personal quest for truth and then a realization of God's immense power and love for humanity. But consider this, Jesus taught that many are called, but few are chosen, that there will be a sorting, and also we need to discipline ourselves and build on our faith. We should be welcoming and open. Many come to the faith by many means and for different reasons, but what matters is the enduring as the end of the matter is better than it's beginning. Further, how did we help win and retain souls for God. He who is not scattering is with me, let him be.
@@JohnBarten-e4c Yes. Trying to base a civilization on "Cultural Christianity" is disingenuous and faulty. Especially if you're professing belief cynically for expedient reasons. Reason is sufficient for almost everyone, but divine authority is only good enough for those that believe in it, and if they stop believing it you will have to justify everything with reason anyway, so you're only kicking the can down the road when deciding how your society's laws should work.
Dawkins shows 1)Christianity becomes nobler than Islam because of the contribution and the acceptance of science 2) Political Christians are as deadlier as the Islam… Ayaan shows 1) Religion is a choice of medicine for the problems of civilization (depression) 2) Christianity is a subjective hallucination that can improve the quality of life. Fascinating….
@@kerhabplays never did she utter the word indeed but it seems she has a divine solution for a political problem like hallucination though known as biological abnormality
@@kerhabplays A person made that up. Maybe they had a dream...or maybe they just imagined it. whatever. It was effective propaganda for primitive people....and still is apparently.
Freddy thank you for bringing this to it. Very refreshing to listen to an intelligent and passionate conversation. You did a superb job of facilitating this. I do agree that we can be spiritual bankrupt, I lean more to eastern experience to follow myself. Both individuals are tempting me to read their books! love those red chairs
This shouldn't have been a debate at all. Cause from hearing Ali become Christian it is a way more personal thing to her than her actually being able to prove the existence of God. It saved her. As an aethist Am always of the opinion if you belive something saved your life who dafuq am l to tell you not to believe in that.
Ayan you've put the conversation back 20 years. You think you say something new. But you just sound like all the other religious people atheists have debated with before.
and where is society now? have we achieved some moral enlightenment? Atheism, to her point, offers no solutions - only a rational critique of religion through the biases of human 'scientific' and hyper-rational understanding.
@chaigasho775 is your point that you are right, the majority of the world is not as smart as you, and an intelligent person succumbing to a view different from yours is setting back the advance of the truth that you are right and if everyone was more like you the world would be a better place? Your comment does suggest that but maybe I have misunderstood.
@@HikeySus I believe theists are abused, confused and deluded. Just read all the Conflicting claims like Flying chariots in the bibble and Flying horses in the Kor'an
Ayaan declares that her faith is a "choice". She spends a lot of time explaining her fears that Islam might fill in the gap of moral poverty of a declining western civilization - much more than explaining the essence of her new-found faith. This is not true faith, it's rather fear and anxiety. It isn't a shame that she turned towards religion for comfort, that is how all religions have been established.
But you dont know abut islam. Without lies islam dies. The real islam teaching is in quran. The real islam make muslim being radical. Islam spread by violance and genocide to christian, jews, even pagans since muhammad, islamnlike kilafat. if you are not radical, it means you are not islam radical muslim is a snake, moderate muslim is grass who hide snakes.
@@cathyaldridge4550 The stretch is calling genocide Israel response to Hamas attacks. Shows you were never targeted for elimination for just who you are like what was done to Jews, Armenians, Herero, Tutsi, Amerindians. Show you don’t even know the founding documents of Hamas.
Very fragile belief. She startled when Richard challenged her about the nonsense of God has biological son!!!! She answered that is my choice??? No logic..would intellectual smart experienced person give such answer??
Because the supernatural doesn’t obey the rules of physics. God is above the rules you have to play by. And if you’re a true atheist, why have morals at all? Why not just eat and do drugs till it’s over! Why not just think of yourself and just have fun at other’s expense? An atheist’s life is one of bitterness! An atheist is typically the most angry and bitter human you will ever meet! And I know one thing, why would anyone ever trust an atheist? They have no true fear of being immoral, so why would you ever trust an open atheist?
@@masti733 You could say that about anything Did you do the dishes? "I choose to believe I did" Did you walk the dog? "I choose to believe so" Did the Civil War happen? "No, and that's my personal choice to believe that" lmao
@@InlaudatusProphetahe won’t believe you unless you convince him. Because believing is not a choice for him. Like the concept of choosing to love is alien to him because you don’t choose to love but you fall in love.
Ayan is out of her depth. As a new Christian she shouldn’t be engaging in these discussions because she can’t ground her belief in doctrine. I don’t think she’s even read the bible.
She actually admits that she is young in the faith...let her bear witness...remember the samaritan woman after meeting with Jesus? She could not help but testify of this Man who had told her all she had ever done( immediately) ...Maybe there is an audience God will reach here.
@@jonmartin3220 I’m not saying you need to be an expert in the bible, or even have read the entire thing to be a Christian. But if you are an intellectual engaging in Christian apologetics, that’s literally the bare minimum.
Ayan said that modern secular rationalist society is itself a product of Christianity because it appear in the West and not anywhere else, this is itself a false Christian narrative. Most eastern religions including Confucianism in China, Japan are more modern and secular and arose far before western society get out of dark age at the least. In India Hinduism may have many issues today but the core philosophies have many atheistic rationalist secular philosophies, like Buddhism where enlightenment itself means the existence of God is not important at all for humanity. Similarly there are Hindu charvaka philosophy that denies there's any god or afterlife and lay importance on making present life better for everybody. There are a few more Hindu sects which are essentially atheistic, all of them before Christianity ever left Europe. I'm not saying this as a Hindu atheist tired of western narrative of inventing everything by renaming it in English, but as a secular rationalist who genuinely believes that religions has hijacked moral values ingrained in the human psyche, twisting and reselling them to us again... Just like Christianity has stolen pagan culture like Christmas. So people being "cultural Christian" is more like being cultural pagan. Also since Ayaan seems so impressed by Christianity I must throw some more light on its effect in India. India doesn't have any shortage of its own problem from casteism to perpetual poverty, but Christian missionaries (including "Mother" Teresa) taking people money collected for charity and sending it to Vatican all the while torturing sick and helpless to promote suffering - that's what Christianity brings to India. So are bishops sexually assaulting children and nuns and getting away with it with the influence of the pope. Also the few Christian majority states of India are markedly more religious extremists than non-Christian states... So much for Christian secularism. Since Ayaan has become such a proponent for Christianity missionaries over rationality she's also inadvertently responsible for this...
I didn't hear a point. Just obsfucation and avoiding answering the question. To say she "chooses to believe" the resurrection myth is unhelpful when steel-manning a belief in God. It's too subjective and a bit rude to the questioner
So she chose to believe... belief is not voluntary, unless you're willingly trying to deceive yourself because it feels good and it's comforting. Better to accept a harsh truth than a reassuring tale.
You can choose to believe especially events of the past. I choose to believe dinosaurs existed, I have never examined the evidence myself. If I'm sick I can choose to believe I will get better in spite of the evidence. Etc etc
when you are that depressed and something uplifts you, it can really put rose tinted glasses on you. Many years ago I was on the edge of ending it and while driving, put a drum and bass podcast on which unexpectedly truly did make me turn the car around that day. I have a deep love from drum and bass now and especially that record label that was hosting the podcast. So I sort of understand how the brain connects and bonds with something that saves it and how it is possible to delude yourself to give yourself comfort.
You can choose to believe things by choosing to trust things. I haven't conducted a scientific experiment in defence of the claim that the earth is round, but I choose to believe that the earth is round because I have another type of evidence: the accumulation of dozens of people showing me the experiments that other people have done and taking other people's word for it; I trust them. Similarly, you can choose to believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead without having looked through all the archeological evidence that is for and against the event (a lot of that evidence being destroyed). If you trust that the people who wrote the gospels and the epistles aren't lying to you, or if you choose to trust that the prophecies written in the Old Testament (such as Isaiah 53) hundreds of years prior to the life of Jesus are about Jesus, then you can choose to believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead.
I live in Sweden. Known to be one of the world's most secular countries. Sweden's society from preschool to top political debates teach and talk about moral all the time. I am sure it is the same with the rest of the secular world. There is no gap in moral teachings and discussions in a secular world. It is the spiritual gap that is more liberal to fill in whatever you like, from birdwatching to catholicism.
I hope that's true. I don't know much about what they teach at school these days. But I do see a lot of evidence of mind virus infections, and "morality" seems to come in the distorted ignorant form of "be kind" (which is ignorant because it's not about critical thinking, it's about letting everyone get whatever they want, not objecting, not offending anyone, and also expecting everyone else to indulge you). It's the woke mind virus. And I work alongside young people just out of school, and I've yet to meet any of them that have the first clue about critical thinking.
Your reason can only take you so far. There are things which are unknowable and unprovable but which we must consider in our lives. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, you cannot be genuinely sure, so it is up to you whether you believe or do not believe. Belief, and faith, are each a choice that you are able to make. You can consciously choose or reject it. Doubt does not contradict faith. It really boils down to what kind of life and what kind of existence you want.
@@chadhogan4979 Since christianity is based on the bible, and many things in the bible are not physically possible, doesn't that call into question the whole thing?
This is what a person says when they simply don't want to keep asking important questions because it really is tiring and often overwhelming. It's a I'm gonna take a break position. Take a break from intense scrutinizing of beliefs, hopes, and big ideas. And maybe they'll resume the questions later in life or maybe never at all again.
@@chadhogan4979Some of us don't have that level of control over our minds. I'm incapable of just choosing to believe something. Either I believe it (which for me is the same as knowing it), or I don't, OR I don't know for sure. With Christianity, I don't know if it's true, but I doubt it for several reasons. Therefore, I'm unable to convince or tell my brain to ignore my lack of knowledge and the presence of doubts, and just choose to believe it.
I don't see why Dawkins's and Ali's perspectives aren't compatible. We keep our scientific/rationality perspective when it comes to addressing factual matters about the world, and we can take the moral/spiritual (call it what-you-will) wisdom from religions and other fictions. The major mistake religions made was their attempt at trying to make people believe their irrational, unscientific claims about reality were literally true as opposed to mythological, symbolic and allegorical. There's a lot of allegorical/symbolic interest in the mythology of Genesis, but anyone who takes it as literally true is a fool. What people need to learn is that just because there's a great deal that's outdated in religions that doesn't mean there isn't also a great deal of value and worth. The problem is that most people aren't intelligent and want to simplify everything to "durrr, either it's literally true and I have to accept it all or it's literally false and I have to reject it all." Once you get past that it's clear the only sensible thing to do is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Ali and Dawkins are essentially the same; both are cultural Christians, it's merely that Ali wants to embrace more of the "Christian" side and Dawkins wants to embrace more of the "culture" side. It's not day and night, and it's day and later that day.
Yet, by endorsing Christianity, a lot of the ignorant parts unfortunately piggyback with the good part and Ali is unable to filter those by promoting the whole package.
@@frankxu4795 The "ignorant parts" can only "piggyback with the good parts" if people let them. That's what the "separating the wheat from the chaff" part of my post addressed. Is Ali "promoting the whole package?" I've yet to hear her comment on, say, any of the laws of the OT.
@@twntwrs First, science and reason have nothing to say about morality. Science can tell you how things are, not how they should be; reason can only insure that your moral systems are consistent, not that they're good. Second, science and reason don't create stories that mimic the patterns and resonate with the experiences of people's lives. People do not live by fact and reason alone, they live by values and metaphors and emotions/feelings and, yes, fictions; "manifold illusions" as Yeats called them, and we can't live without them. Without them all is nihilism.
@@jonathanhenderson9422 Take away all the reasons why something may be good and you would be left with something that may well be pure evil and you won't know it.
I wish I could use her rationale in my own life. ..."The dishes aren't done yet..." Me: "I respect your choice to believe that." ..."You said you were going to do the dishes." Me: "I choose to believe that I did."
This lady Ayaan was lost and depressed, she exchanged one lie with another, she desperately needs to "belong" as majority of humans do, because for centuries we are born into it. She still seems depressed to me, the "Christian faze" may not last, she is very poor and fragile in this discussion, Dawkins is really trying to be a gentleman here, as if he did not want to upset her. For human kind to accept that there is no god and there has never been is to fall of a pedestal, is to stop worshipping themselves, something that egoistic, animal like human nature will never do! .... Did god and religion has ever changed anything for the better ! absolutely zero! quite the opposite!
This conversation is making me think of Jordan Peterson's discussions about Christianity. I think JP would say that the fact that Christianity provides comfort is significant, real and demonstrates a form of truth.
The comfort may be “real” and “true” and a person is welcome to that. The real question of what is “true” is whether there was a global flood and all animals crammed in an ark, whether the sun stood still in the sky so Joshua could finish a battle and whether God sacrificed 1/3 of himself to pay the price of malfunctions he created in the system.
It was a nice and polite discussion, and Dawkins was a gentleman. However, he knows that the moral equivalence he grants between Islam and Christianity is not true. He rationalizes his position by saying that the only thing significantly different between the two is that Christians don’t take Christianity seriously. The two religions differ greatly at their points of origin and have produced far different fruit because of their differences. He knows this.
It will never cease to astonish me how very intelligent people (much more intelligent than I am) can in the stretch of a single sentence utter a blatant contradiction that I can see as clear as water whereas they seem totally unable to even suspect it's there.
And the answer to your wonderment continues to elude you? Perhaps your self appraisal is well founded. We are human. We are not automatons. Bar the human brain that has impairment to its emotional capacity, we are never purely or wholly rational. If we were truly a rational species, there is no need for indoctrination, propaganda, cajoling, national campaigns, civil activism, and the like. There is no need for advertising. Why would grownups not listen to reason, you may wonder? We don't make decisions purely by reason. There are many variables, known and unknown to us, that influence us when we make decisions. There is cognitive bias. There is motivated reasoning. So many. Do you assume that atheists are more rational than theists? It is face-palming to witness people who claim to not believe in God because of the lack of evidence but go on to get hoodwinked by pseudoscience and new age rubbish. It is very common in the UK.
@TheSpoovy When somebody says that religion is nonsense, they are really saying, as Ayan pithily emphasizes, that "there's nothing." That we come from nothing, that the entire universe comes from nothing and, therefore, there's nothing in store for us. That alone is a monumental nonsense. If you add to that that the basis for your conviction is science, you are implying that *nothing can be true unless scientifically proven.* Of course, this statement cannot be true either-unless it's scientifically proven. Henceforth, a long chain of contradictions ensues, one more bizarre than the previous.
The Lady and her husband make their living by talking, talking and talking. She has choosen a topic that resonates with lots and people and its controversial.... She is not convincing to me at all. Weak arguments
Athiests can NOT categorically condemn gRapists, PDFfiles, thief's, liars, deceivers etc etc...why? Because who gives you the moral standpoint? If not God? You think humans have evolved into being 'righteous' mamals? You think that humans have evolved from nuclear and matter in the atmosphere to now being what we are? Do you think we were monkeys? 😂😂😂 atheist are more brain 💀 than anyone in the religious sector.
lol I love her, but she’s bullsh*itting everyone lol… If you were listening to her podcast in the last 4 years, u know she’s just playing a political game.
@@citizenghosttownright she’s playing chess and everyone is playing checkers. She wants to have more of a cultural influence, and in the long run she’s gonna have a huge influence
@@sanra167 Maybe, but I'm not so sure. What made Ayaan Hirsi Ali interesting (and a minor celebrity) was her personal narrative and apostasy from Islam. If she's now just another Christian on the Political Right -- well, those are a dime a dozen. There may also be a simpler reason for her conversion. She has two children now and along with her husband (another atheist who values "cultural" Christianity) she embraces the utility of Christianity in raising them.
It is faith based on evidence. Faith finds meaning from the Object it is placed upon. Faith by itself is useless. It is the object of faith that gives that faith validity and value.
@@IfeanyiJohn-cw8otOf course, why would you need to "have faith" in something that has empirical evidence? Do you have "faith" that you have two hands or do you "Know" that you have them?
How does a sighted person describe color spectrum to a blind person? How can you explain to an atheist the depth of rationality to Christianity? The Holy Spirit must lead the way.
I’m not a Christian, but I understand the teachings of Christianity and I respect it. I see parallels with all religions. I used to be an atheist, and came to my own belief in god after my own “rock bottom”. I do not see atheists as lesser than at all. I see them as brave to be able to venture through life without a torch. I myself, needed that “helping hand” from the Holy Spirit or whatever you want to call it. We need scepticism, and what atheists do is challenge the aspects of religion that have become corrupt. They are very much needed for our soul growth. Jesus never judged anyone. He would break bread with everyone. He described us all as children of god. The kingdom of heaven is not a private club where you need a special membership to get in; it’s there for you, if you need it or not. Just like how a truly loving mother is there for you, only in moments where you truly need her. I needed god, but many others don’t, and I respect them as well.
@@janicedobis6490 I believe children should choose their way - to be or not to be atheists. I never told my kids that god does not exist. I teach them what is right and wrong , good or bad according to common sense and the well-being of society. If you claim that only religion/God can provide morality to society, you are wrong, and here is why - since there are many religions contradicting each other, humanity has come to national legislations, suitable for all citizens . I dont see life in grey or black - imagination and creativity bring colors to our lives
What is she talking about ?? . .. "I choose to believe" ... we dont choose to believe in anything . Belief isnt a choice . We humans are either convinced of something , or we aren't. Thats it .
If you study the matter thoroughly, you do come to the point of knowing that you can neither prove nor disprove Christianity. Not in the most rigorous sense. So, we do, at that level, make a choice regarding what to believe.
Why does scientific evidence = rigor? "Rigor" would imply thoroughly examining all evidences. The scientific method excludes certain evidences because it has no means of evaluating them. I would argue the scientific method is one of the worst methods of examining reality when used alone. A person who employs the scientific method alone, neither examines the inherent presuppositions nor provides scientific evidence for those presuppositions.
When willingly and fullheartly search God with a humbling heart and mind, you will find him, but not through external means but internally, from the heart and mind.
But you can prove that many of the things in the bible are not physically possible. If even part of the bible can be disproven then you have succeeded in disproving the existence of the christian god, as the bible is supposed to be the literal word of god.
This is a touching exploration from both sides of the spectrum. I respect Ayaan's conclusion and I appreciate her courage in sharing her very personal story. As an atheist, I struggle with understanding. I always go back to it being a choice between comforting lies and the uncomfortable truth. I think some people struggle with the reality that this is it. It can be a dark and dreadful transition if you are accustomed to the idea that there is some comforting entity out there that cares for you. I was raised Christian, so I do understand how the transition can be difficult, but to deny facts, to deny the absence of evidence is ultimately psychologically unhealthy.
As a meditator I can say Dawkin made more sense to me. I can totally understand what Aayan went through but she filled that hole with something ‘comforting’. But in reality she just fell into another hole, giving up on self belief and seeking refuge in something external, that’s the false path to spiritual growth and freedom, the trap we all fall into, clinging to our own beliefs and concepts.
Dawkin believes the world came from nothing and offered nothing in his presentation. In his attempt to offer “something” he run to one the emanated from Christianity which Ayaan clearly exposed him. His obsession with the word “nonsense” is the take away from this. Atheists offer nothing, including “sense”
She says the protesters are unwittingly accepting the framework of Islamism and promoting it (while still being atheists, perhaps wilfully blindly so).
My most ambitious goal came about after believing for 70 years that the universe was created ... to change my system of belief to the scientific theory that in one form or another, the universe and energy always existed ... no creator ... no plan ... and to believe that suffering of all forms of life ... is natural. If people believe they can't be moral unless they have religion in their lives ... that is a sad statement about the mentality of humans in general. It's as though you are saying ... "I can't be moral unless I fear that a god is going to punish me if I'm not moral." I am almost 85 years of age now ... and I believe that if I treat each situation with as much kindness as it deserves ... I can't DO better than my best ... and "let the chips fall where they may."
You now believe that the universe did not begin, but always was? Is there any science pointing to that conclusion rather than it having a beginning? If suffering is natural why seek to remedy it or restrict it? Who decides what is and is not moral? What if I disagree with you? What authority do you have to tell me I'm wrong when we are each equally the creations of a random process of chance in the context of meaningless chaos all around since always? If there is bad and good, then there is God, because God is, by definition, the highest good. If there is no good and no bad, how do you even know what kindness is? How do you make a moral judgement on your conduct? Relative to what?
@@chadhogan4979 There isn't any "remedy" for suffering on planet earth ... and according to those in religions ... suffering in the hereafter continues for wicked, EVIL souls for eternity. As an Atheist, I believe that suffering ends when the bodies die, as it does for all forms of life when their bodies die. Personally ... world over ... each one of us decides what is and what is not moral ... and it's plain that because we are selfish beings ...we all break our own and other people's concepts of moral codes. As an Atheist I don't have any authority to tell you that you are wrong ... I just have the freedom to debate with you that I believe your system of belief is wrong ... from my personal point of view. I suggest that you try leaving your religious cult to join a different religious cult and see how fast you are shunned by the people who now think you are evil and of the devil. Those in religions are not kind, if you try to leave them and their theology behind. They might even kill you ... while reminding you that you should not have insulted "GOD" by leaving HOLY TRUTH for EVIL LIES. When it pertains to the age-old theories of whether the universe was created or whether it always existed ... that can't be known by scientists or by those in religion. All we have is faith in our own theories ... and I went from investing my faith in the theory that a god created the universe ... to the scientific theory that the universe always existed. We can also put our faith in the theory that the universe started with a BIG BANG ... but no matter which theory we choose ... it's all theory and nothing other THAN theory. Thanks for the chance to converse with you, and I wish you the best no matter which theory you choose to believe.
@@junevandermark952 as you said, no one can know for sure if the universe began or has always been, but logically it makes more sense that it had begun. So there is a choice to believe in something greater than yourself, or nothingness. What one do you think is good and which one is evil?? Considering all we have are choices, which one is the path towards the greater good of existence?
(In my opinion) and in Dawkins’ view also, anyone who claims to hear a voice in their head or ‘sees the light’ is delusional. Richard was being polite to his co speaker, compared to similar exchanges in previous debates. The idea of someone guiding you from within is often based on little more than narcissistic solipsism. To have a moral code and to adhere to what is ‘right’ does not require one to be Christian or follow any other religion for that matter.
@@NEELZE99 Define common sense. You just assume I'm going to agree with you. Well your athiest common sense and my Christian common sense are not the same thing. So explain to me, how can the average person arrive to your definition of common sense? Aren't athiests supposed to be more logical than Christians? So why are you struggling to define basic words?
@@alisterrebelo9013 If you'll pardon me, I'll define common sense to you. It's the evolved knowledge of experience passed on and accepted as true by humanity as a whole. And if you'll pardon me again, why do you struggle to show any evidence that your god created the universe beyond you read it in a book with a talking donkey in it?
@@TonyEnglandUK I can't answer your question, because a) I haven't made a claim about the existence of God and b) we don't agree epistemologically, on what 'evidence' means and why you arbitrarily insist on defining it in, purely in a materialist scientific sense. "Evolved knowledge of experience passed on an accepted as true by humanity as a whole" Using your definition as quoted, humanity has, as a whole, for the history of humanity considered the existence of God as common sense. This is not my claim, merely an observation based on your definition. My turn, what scientific evidence can bring forth to conclusively prove the existence of a universal logic that you are currently appealing to, as well as is assumed to be true when conducting scientific experiments?
13 mins - Dawkins says that “Mary had to free of sin” and that is why the conception of Jesus had to be immaculate. Please note that Mary was fully human and was absolutely not without sin.
That's actually even more to the point of religion being man made. Men in this era would believe a superior being would never arrive through female reproductive parts. And as others have pointed out, Jesus is one of several religious figures born of a virgin. This is more evidence of the man made nature of Christianity
Are these things fundamental to Christian or Catholic belief?...I don't think so. To me, one can be a good Christian even without believing in the immaculate conception, virgin birth and even resurrection. The core of Christianity is Jesus and the love and compassion as personified in him.
Respect to both these people for having such a mutually respectful discussion. We need more of their approach. Dawkins seems a highly intelligent man who genuinely wants to know the truth. But he keeps coming back to her beliefs being ‘obvious nonsense’ without explaining why it is obvious. If you start with an assumption that there is no God and no supernatural, then of course anything that requires a supernatural God is going to be ‘obvious nonsense’. However, given his assumption his conclusions are self-fulfilling. Once she accepted there might be a God then supernatural events stopped being obvious nonsense. Basically she has an open mind and he has a closed mind that self-fulfils his pre-determined, non-negotiable, assumption. She might still be wrong. Science can’t prove, or even seriously inform, whether there is or isn’t a God. However her choosing to believe there is since there is no proof there is not is equally rational and equally likely to be factually correct, and also much more consistent with her experience that belief in God leads to greater personal happiness and her social view that genuine Christianity (ie the one Jesus taught, not the dramatically modified version some churches have promoted that is inconsistent with Jesus) is better for society that Islam, atheism or any other alternative.
He also makes an error saying Christianity grew up from the Middle Ages. Actually medieval Christianity’ was so different from the teaching of Christ it wasn’t Christian. What modern Christianity has done is returning to believing the teaching of Christ whereas medieval Christianity was a superstition with almost no teaching of Christ in it.
He also makes an error saying Christianity grew up from the Middle Ages. Actually medieval Christianity’ was so different from the teaching of Christ it wasn’t Christian. What modern Christianity has done is returning to believing the teaching of Christ whereas medieval Christianity was a superstition with almost no teaching of Christ in it.
Where is the data that backs up this claim that atheism has left a whole generation with a moral vacuum? This debate makes no sense without that claim substantiated properly. Personally, I feel much more fulfilled without the grips of religion on my thoughts. I am able to, without fear, learn and question things that I was too afraid to when I was a Christian.
Questioning biological realities like male and female. Tranxition surgeries. Destranxition surgeries. Happies for Palestine The above are examples of moral confusion that come about on this side of the year 2000, in the years following the success of the new athiest movement and declining religiosity.
She had wrong skewed observation and built false claim on top of it, people in university support Palestinian cause not Hamas, how being Christian would prevent you from supporting Palestinians right to have a state on their land! only thing would make a Christian support Israel is the prophecy of Jesus coming back and that's approve why Dawkins is hell right in refusing her nonsense.
The 'data' of a moral vacuum is provided by the prominent atheists themselves. Dawkins, Krauss, Harris, Shermer, Coyne, Fry etc ALL support Israel even now. Moral depravity.
As a Christian, I was taught to always question everything, including my faith. Not to question is not to care what you believe in. Being afraid to question implies you didn't really understand the moral foundations of Christianity and how the love of the G(o)od based on objetive moral principles cannot lead to a blinkered approach to anything. Subjective moral principles, as I'm sure you are aware, lead to such hells on earth as the cold and calculated destruction of millions upon millions of innocent children's lives. God save us from such fearlessness.
maybe ask how do you even measure the data you are asking for. Who gets to define it? What if their definition does not suit yours? How do you get the data? I am afraid, you experienced false Christianity. Real Christianity is a relationship with God and it is not a religion. Thomas doubted and questioned and Jesus showed him evidence.
These are not two equals. Dawkins is a brilliant scientist, so listening how his brilliant mind reaches conclusions, is always worth the time. Ayaan - while I have no doubt that she a decent person and of ok intelligence - doesn't have the same fertile and interesting background. She spent her life, mostly, talking about herself and her biography. And while that has some importance and value on the background of the dangers of Islam and Islamism, it is entirely irrelevant when it comes to any other religion of her choosing. Jains and Christians won't become more mellow because of her "insight", she cannot warn the world of the dangers of Christianity as she knows nothing of it. So I honestly don't care - she's 100% irrelevant in that field. I guess that Dawkins endured this painful session because he is a kind man and wanted to show his support to her but he was clearly suffering. He'll accept that he was just wrong Ayaan was never an atheist, she was always a temporarily confused believer.
Right after she told him she was having thoughts of self-deletion and severe depression, he calls Christianity "B*&ls^%t". Yes he was so supportive. Edit - Also, lovely use of the no true Scotsman fallacy, I almost missed it.
@@alisterrebelo9013 of course his support of her doesn't extend to supporting superstition. What did you expect? Ah yes, you have problems with the definition of the True Scotsman fallacy. That's why.
It is a shame such a " brilliant scientist" cannot seem to have any insight into his own "fundamentalist atheistic assuptions" which he hides behind as he continues to assert his moral purity in only being committed to "truth". Materialistic determinism and the nihilism it spawns took Ayaan to the edge of the horrible abyss. Thank God Richard is still a good enough friend to care and be glad she didn't fall over like many desperate people have. So glad to see Ayaan humbly and powerfully pointing people Jesus and Hope.
@@ruthoates7137 I don't know what "atheistic assuptions" are but my money is you not understanding what atheism means. I think you confound atheism for antitheism or positive atheism here. There is also no "materialistic determinism", at least not anymore. That was a vague objections of religious folks against classical physics and it too is based on a lack of understanding. And finally, it couldn't have driven Ayaan to the abyss, as she is neither a scientist nor was she a true unbeliever. She just had a fall out with Islam.
"we are more than material" That's a bold claim, for which there is no evidence, and indeed there can be no evidence. So it's a nonsense. I expect better from someone trying to interact with Dawkins.
In fact you will find many physicists explaining that matter is an illusion and the apparently material world is effectively an illusion. Everything is energy and about energy we still have so much to learn.
Yes Jesus came for everyone including the Muslims. Have you ever stopped to consider why: - Mariam (Mary), the mother of Isa (Jesus) is the ONLY named woman in the Quran (literal speech of Allah) - Mariam is the only sinless woman in the Quran (Quran 3:42) - Isa (Jesus) is the only sinless man in the Quran (Quran 19:19) - Isa creates life in the way Allah created life by breathing into it (Quran 5:110) - The followers of Isa will be made superior to the unbelievers (Quran 3:55) - Muhammed's father is in hell (Sahih Muslim 203, Book 1, #408) - Muhammed' mother is in hell (Sahih Muslim 976a, Book 11, #134 and Quran 9:113) - Muhammed sins 70 times per day (Sahih Jami` at-Tirmidhi Book 47, Hadith 311)
A.man of his age who cusses out, that says a lot about his beliefs. How does anyone even listens to him. On the contrary this well educated woman, so humble yet articulate, non confrontational, it is amazing.
This man understands more about religion than any of you blind worshippers. He views the universe in a more profound way and that is with Science and therefore discards GOD and so should everyone in this world.
If Christopher Hitchens was alive, he would have demolished Ayaan absolutely- compulsory love, scapegoating which is core to Christianity is disgusting
I admire Richard for his honesty, in saying his beliefs may or may not be true. As well Ayaan's honesty is commendable. Knowing there is a God (an intelligent consciousness behind all this), is not a matter of reason, or feeling, or faith. The yogi's of India teach a technique whereby direct perception of God can be had, beyond reason, feeling, or faith. Learning to control the life force within the body by use of anciently developed psychophysiological techniques of meditation, in which the breath and heart action can be stilled by the decarbonisation of blood, leads to direct perception of our soul and its oneness with the Source (God), which is supreme joy, wisdom. We continue to live even without the props of the body - breath and heart beat - they have shown. There are many teachings of Jesus in the Gospels that refer to the fact that he also understood this and taught such things to his close disciples. "The light of the body is in the eye. If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light" (Matthew 6;22-29), is one. The Bible says, "Be still and know that I am God", and "The Kingdom of God is within you" refers to proof being evident by an inward searching - with spine straight and eyes focused at the point between the eyebrows (the spiritual eye), going deeper than reason, feeling, or faith. Anyway, Freddie, as usual, does a great job as mediator, in my opinion. Thank you Freddie...
@@twntwrs It's a Paramahansa Yogananda kind of woo. A true and beautiful woo at that. By devotional and rigorous perseverance using the scientific technique of Kriya Yoga meditation, or a similar one, over many years (or lifetimes if necessary), anyone can realise the truth - that we are a spark of the Infinite (a soul wave on the ocean of Spirit). As the guru has stated - "Through use of the Kriya key, persons who cannot bring themselves to believe in the divinity of any man, will behold, at last, the full divinity of their own selves."
@@johndeighan2495 I would expect nothing less than that comment from one who has yet to let in the light. [Not that I claim anything other than a willingness to put in some effort in an attempt to validate this awesome ancient truth].
@@deancooling3480 I've already put in whatever effort is needed to know that Jesus Christ wasn't an Indian yogi disguised as a Jewish preacher. Not much effort is needed to know that. But a lot of effort, a lot of lies and self-deception, is required to believe it.
I totally understand Ayaan. There has to be a good balance of faith and reason. Apply reason to faith such that it doesn’t make you act like a virus but rather use the faith to enhance your inner being and to be a good force for others .
Did she say that the history of western civiliation is mainly Christian!? Does she think, that before we started counting, Europeans was just cave men? I wonder where words like science, democracy and psychology come from.
She means the spiritual philosophy which underlies the development of western civilization. Of course science is part of it but that is not the religion/philosophy.
@yidiandianpang how condescending to suggest that a proposed intellectual like Hirsi Ali does not know "history" from "spiritual philosophy". And also, this tell me that you haven't bothered to research Christian philosophy outside of theology, because then you'd discover that most of it is based on stoicism which is *tadaah* a roman philosophy, which not only was very popular in the early days of the roman empire and became increasingly popular with Marcus Aurelius, but it also has deep roots in *tadaah* the Greek antiquity tradition of thought. The fundament of Christian philosophy is heathen. If not, it would probably never have caught on amongst Romans in the years of Constantine. And the claim that Christian philosophy underlines the development of Western civilization, is just flat out wrong. It has had a great and devastating influence on a Western civilization, which we have tried to come to terms with several times, first during the renaissance (which got It's name from the rebirth of antiquity) and later in the Age of Enlightenment. Both periods were influenced by the rediscovering of ancient Greek and roman philosophy, and modern science, reason, politics, and scepticism have developed IN SPITE of christianities' attempts to undermine these things. We would have been so much more advanced by now if the Romans had not seen a potential political benefit in Christianity in the 300s AD.
I work with people trying to quit drug addiction, many of whom turn to religion. On the surface it makes religion seem good but it becomes a crutch distracting them from the allure of drugs while the cravings are still present.
I just love how they embrace at the start and finish. Nothing moves me more than two people who still care for each other deeply despite having differing opinions. This is how civil discourse should be done.
So true. Brought me to tears.
Yes ❤
Yeah
Soy
違いは...👧👦🧠 #SantaClausing🎅or not...👧👦🧠#Control🎤👩🤺 #SelfControl🌀🏄🌊#Resilience🔥♰🐨💉👧🧠＃ScienceMatters📺#反科学🤺＃Education🍑🎣🌊#学際的✨🌏🌎🌍🌤☄🦕🌌⌛🔭
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:01 *🌟 Introduction to Speakers and Background*
- Ayaan Hirsi Ali's journey from Somalia to the Netherlands and her shift from Islam to atheism and then Christianity,
- Richard Dawkins' prominence as an atheist and his public response to Hirsi Ali's conversion.
03:43 *😔 Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Personal Crisis and Conversion*
- Hirsi Ali's struggle with depression and self-loathing leading to a turning point through prayer,
- Her newfound faith in Christianity and the sense of connection and humility it brought.
06:53 *🤔 The Nature of Belief: Dawkins and Hirsi Ali*
- Dawkins questions the literal belief in Christian doctrines such as the resurrection and virgin birth,
- Hirsi Ali's perspective on faith as a choice and the wisdom she finds in Christianity's teachings.
12:02 *🌍 Christianity, Islam, and Western Civilization*
- Hirsi Ali discusses Christianity's role in countering Islam and supporting Western values,
- The difference between personal belief and societal impact of Christianity.
18:18 *🏛️ The Cultural and Moral Debate*
- The consequences of secularizing society and the vacuum it creates,
- Dawkins and Hirsi Ali explore the coexistence of reason and faith.
29:10 *🎻 The Role of Faith and Reason*
- The discussion on how faith and reason can coexist and complement each other,
- The impact of faith on human connection and civilization, and Dawkins' perspective on atheism's role.
31:17 *🌱 The Nature of Faith and Truth*
- Discussion on the difference between comfort from faith and the truth of existential claims,
- The debate on whether the comforting aspects of religion make its existential claims true.
33:46 *💭 Life After Death and Cultural Christianity*
- Exploration of beliefs about life after death and the concept of a soul,
- Dawkins' stance as a cultural Christian and the discussion on the utility of religion in society.
37:26 *⚖️ Islam, Christianity, and Societal Influence*
- Hirsi Ali and Dawkins discuss the societal impact of Christianity and Islam,
- Concerns about the influence of Islam in Western societies and the perceived decline of Christian influence.
42:08 *📜 Enlightenment and Secular Humanism*
- Debate on the origins of secular humanism and its relationship with Christianity,
- Discussion on the moral framework provided by religions versus secular humanism.
50:15 *🔍 Comparing Holy Books and Moral Teachings*
- Comparison of the teachings of the Bible and the Quran, especially concerning morality,
- Discussion on the unique characteristics of Jesus and Muhammad in their respective religions.
56:48 *🚨 Concerns About Radical Islam and Wokeism*
- Shared concerns about the spread of radical Islamist ideologies in the West,
- Discussion on the impact of these ideologies on university campuses and the response to global events.
01:00:22 *🌐 Clash of Civilizations*
- Discussion on the idea of a clash of civilizations and the lack of a counter-message from secular or atheist humanism,
- Concerns about the denial of cultural conflict and the rise of Islamist ideologies in Western societies.
01:02:47 *🛑 Muslim Rebellion and Reform*
- Ayaan Hirsi Ali's outreach to Muslims and ex-Muslims, encouraging awareness of the dangers of Islamist ideologies,
- Emphasis on the need to oppose totalitarian ideologies that exploit freedoms to promote their agendas.
01:05:19 *🚨 Warning Against Islamist Threats*
- Ali's warnings about the potential consequences of Islamist ideologies gaining power, referencing groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Hamas,
- A call to recognize and combat these threats to prevent the spread of barbaric practices.
01:06:21 *💉 Vaccination Metaphor for Ideological Combat*
- Dawkins' metaphor of combating harmful ideologies with a "mild form of the virus" versus advocating for rationality and enlightenment,
- The conversation concludes with this analogy, highlighting different approaches to addressing ideological threats.
Made with HARPA AI
I've heard many Christian apologists and modern intellectuals speak about Richard Dawkins, but this was my first time actually listening to him. What struck me is that Dawkins seems to have a deeper understanding of the significance of God than many Christians. He even said it himself-if it were true, it would change everything. (22:30) If more Christians held such a profound view of God, the world would likely be a better place. May the Holy Spirit open Richard Dawkins' mind to the reality of God.
Many do. The problem is evil. You should know this.
The world would be a better place if we can undo all the harm done to us by Heaven. Until then, if that time ever comes, we have been enslaved by heaven. First thing heaven did to us was
=> Deny us the tree of Life
=> Shorten our livespan
=> Afflict us with Territorial disputes
Humans are trapped in a prison the bible tells us was designed by God of Heaven in self defence.
The problem facing us, is that we don't even know where Heaven is, Astrologically. And we don't know what Heaven will do if we Foolishly show up to the gates of heaven unprepared.
Lol, are you trying to say that Christians are the problem in this world? Being a Christian doesn’t mean you will make the world better. If you are a Christian, you know that the Bible says Christians don’t belong to this earth, and according to Jesus, Christians will be hated by the world because of Him. It’s funny how you speak for Christians when you have zero knowledge about Christianity.
And then he said it’s all BS.
If Dawkins has a deeper understanding of God, then why is he still an atheist? And you said if Christians had a better understanding of God like Dawkins, the world would be a better place? You're making it look like the world is a mess because of Christians. Do you know this world belongs to Satan? Do you know Jesus said, 'They will hate you because of me?' Do you know Jesus said those who believe in him don't belong in this world? You are talking about the Bible on your channel, and you don't know all these? And do you know according to the Bible, the world will worsen?
1 Corinthians 1:18 in the Bible, wrote and i quote, *“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us(who believes) who are being saved it is the power of God."*
The message of the cross is a cruel distortion of a father-son relationship. God is an abusive parent.
@rogernichols1124
Not if the son, was much as committed and an author of it. Jesus is God, same objective the method does not seem very comfortable to our human mind. But God is the one who death cannot limit.
@@rogernichols1124 What happened to Jesus was an act of justice and mercy for all of humanity. Had it been merely a human doing that to another human it would be different. But it wasn’t. And it couldn’t have been, because a human couldn’t raise another human from the dead. Jesus is alive and His life gives ALL who believe in Him; life. It’s not something that can be understood fully until you accept Him. Once you do and you’re filled with the Holy Spirit, He’ll speak to your heart from within. And all of a sudden all of the things that you didn’t understand before, you will understand. His love will overflow from your heart and you’ll understand why He did what He did. It was for you….
@@rogernichols1124Not when both are eternal - the same in essence and death couldn't hold the Son and the Son returned to the Father.
@@rogernichols1124 Its interesting that you assume you have an intelligence unseen in all of human history.
The obnoxious clapping when each side thinks their team has scored a point is annoying and a sign of the times. I’d be curious to know how many people in the crowd were actually open to having their mind changed that day or if they were there just to confirm their bias.
You're exactly the same. Don't pretend you aren't 🙄
They also both had hilarious WWE intro music, guess it was just that kind of debate
@@JuntusOrothonjust because you are the same, doesn't mean anyone else is! We're not all sheep!
The sad thing is, Dawkins may have convinced her to leave Christianity in a months time and as she admitted it was the only thing that saved her life, will he, you and the other atheists be happy if she kills herself.
Pathetic
Well that's what happens when raised in a SuperBowl frenzy culture
@@wesleytilley I stand corrected 👍🏼
Ayaan received faith by humility. It’s impossible to have faith with a heart of pride and arrogance but rather
by a heart which is
“clothed” with humility: “for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble”.
And all those 'humble' inquisition enablers then? Learn your history!
I went through the same journey like Ayaan, it’s a spiritual rebirth, humbling experience where like God introduced himself to me, just like how israelites saw God’s work by parting the red sea.
Even wounded animals seek out their enemies for help.
This only shows that faith is born from an egocentric will to live.
@@awcuiper1725 currently damned for their sins and blasphemy.
@@awcuiper1725Here we are talking about Christ, though there are many pitfalls with many followers.
people in debates like this should be banned from clapping and cheering
That is something called freedom of expression , the only way to express yourself in a very structured debate as audience.
@@tommedia7742I think his point is that these debates aren’t meant to be for entertainment. It’s not a show. I agree that the clapping should be held at the end
@Von.NorthEnd claping on the end for both speakers will never show who get more support from the audience. Even the time of claping to favor one of them, will no prove that person was right or with better arguments.
In your use of the injunction "should" reveals you are an extremist just like all followers of religion!
@@Shaliaj7 The point is that its not important to know who convinced the audience there. The debate is not a democratic process thats decided by the non-random set of people attending.
I been praying for near 56 years now, baptized, went to church, I'm now 57 and finally have realized it was all BS lies! Now I have started to meditate and it helps me maintain a stable emotional state 56 years of God zero only pain
What a miserable existence to be you. My life keeps getting more and more full of joy. When you understand God's Word, you know that to live is Christ, to die is gain! God speaks to you through consistently reading scripture, you speak to God through prayer. I notice you didn't include "reading" in your "things I did" list. So basically for 56 years all you did was talk At God. You never talked With Him. And that's why you've had 56 years of pain. Please repent of your arrogance. Humble yourself, seek Him through His Word, and you will find joy beyond measure.
How do you know for 100 percent fact that it's a lie?
Nice! What finally woke you up?
I would like to help deprogram / shatter the spell for as many religious people as possible and help them out of the web of lies
But it isn't always easy to find what actually works or registers, lol
قرآن بخوان عیسی مسیح خدا نیست یک انسان و پیامبر است مثل محمد رسول الله خدا یکی است خالق است
Thanks so much for organizing this conversation. And also big thanks to the man in the middle. Great questions. Exactly what I needed clarification on.
The man in the middle interjected unnecessarily. I wish he stayed quiet in order for these two people to find their OWN way.
The test of a 'Christian' is not so much a theological or even a Christological assertion that can fit into a neat 'orthodoxy' , but that they can convey , somehow , the living Christ to another person , and this woman does that for me in an extraordinary and real way .
Correct. The cerebral athiest has little capacity for appreciating another way of experiencing world.
You clearly have some portion of conscience telling you how unintelligible and illogical are your assertions about the man god who can be crucified. I am baffled how humans can buy the most illogical thing to 'save himself' even if it's a false salvation.
You're following Paul, not Jesus. Jesus taught that the highest command is Shema, i.e. Oneness of God and Jesus fell on his face to worship the Father in heaven just like Muslims do. Jesus gave the criteria for the true prophet as teachings about the God (Oneness and the Law of God) and he also said the true prophet will recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Now let's examine Paul's teachings. Yes, he claimed Jesus to be the Messiah but Paul out of nowhere claimed that the Law is abolished. Wasn't Jesus circumsized? Wasn't he doing sabbath? Wasn't Jesus avoiding pork? What about Paul? All the opposites!
Now examine Islam. Islam recognises Jesus as the Messiah. Islam confirmed sabbath for the Jews and also introduced light version of prohibitive Laws for the whole mankind.
@@alisterrebelo9013 Perfectly put!
The "test" of a christian is that they believe in christianity and its foundational documents (the bible). Modify that to being a nice person as you seem to, then there is no need or justification for the religion itself.
@@alisterrebelo9013 Typical religious nonsense trying to criticize knowledge and critical thinking.
“Cultural Christianity” is akin to enjoying a slice of cake while refusing to believe in a baker.
A cake will always have a baker, but there are countless religions that lack one. You can appreciate the Mormons' family centric traditions without believing Joseph Smith
The only difference is that we can observe the baker’s contributions first hand. I’d say cultural Christianity is more analogous to enjoying a slice of cake with specific ingredients that you have been raised to be familiar with.
There’s no inherent meaning or purpose behind it, but it is sentimental to you in it’s own way.
@@AntosteIIa BINGO!
No it isn’t. Accepting and living by the moral code that Christianity teaches and a belief in a god are separate things.
One day it will be time for all of us to meet our baker
Am a synthetic biologist created first transgenic mosquito in Africa and yet am deep spiritual Christian who is 100% dedicated my life to jesus. No conflict!
Thanks for sharing. May I ask how your faith informs the mechanics of what you do in the lab?
Physician here trained and practicing in the united states. Highly educated in the maths and sciences and I agree completely. So many athiests are foolish thinking faith in Christ and reason are incompatible or believers must be uneducated idiots.
That's good how can you dedicate your life to Jesus when never had himself a woman
Why do you even do transgenetic biology while Jesus himself is transgenetic. Just study Jesus 😂 in the lab
Been a beat. But I’d studied evolutionary biology, entomology. More details on mosquito’s please? I’m intrigued.
I can see how it could lead to depression and despair if a religion was your identity growing up and then suddenly you threw it all away without having something equivalent to take its place. That’s losing a big part of yourself.
I think it was much later when the depression came, not when she i initially lost her Muslim faith.
I’m a former atheist that was raised secular without basically any religious background. I firmly believe that everyone has a God-sized emptiness inside their hearts that only He can fill. We don’t always tune into this - we’re busy with our everyday lives! But if you ever take a moment to really think about it, I think you will find the longing.
I think that it specifically was while she was an atheist.
@@mrscharmless
How can you claim everyone
has a God sized emptiness
when no one knows the size
of any of the Gods.
@@FoursWithin God is eternal.
It seems like to me that she’s more of a “spiritual christian” than a “theological/doctrinal christian”.
No, she is a political/social/psychological Christian. She joined Christianity because of her hour of weakness and because she is afraid of wokeness/Islam/China. It's the same as man joining Christianity on his deathbed.
i felt soo too but her spirituality also comes from recognising the spiritual quality from the moral foundation with which christianity has civilised the west.
to lose this quality would create a spiritual void of the west, thereby causing a rise in Islam which from her experience is quite revolting.
If christianity produces this quality, then Christ who embodies it is who she has decided to look up to, indeed looks like she has found her cross and will follow the Christ.
Yes.
Of course when you first become a Christian it is purely a spiritual experience and then become theological and doctrinal as you mature. She’s accepted God spiritually and she’s been living a life of an atheist, science, and naturalism. Now there’s no doubt that God exist and she will discover God on a personal level and God will guide her in her theology and doctrine.
You mean she has no reason to believe what she believes. She does because it's expedient for her (makes her feel better) or she thinks it's expedient for western civilisation. Whether it is actually true or not doesn't seem to have much interest for her. In my opinion that's a dishonest intelectual stance.
Thanks Freddy.
What a respectful & pleasant discussion between 2 great thinkers with such opposing views.
I wouldn't be surprised one day Richard Dawkins can become a Christian. It would shock the whole world.
Man, well done to the Christians who have met Dawkins and treated him with so much love and respect that he said, ' I've never met a vicar that I didn't like. They're always very, very nice people.' 16:50
She isn't
She lied to her Dutch citizenship which was exposed
She endorsed trump racism
She supports wars against other people
She wants western colonialism (funny how she Hates china which is atheist mind u )
She endorsed pragerU well known misinformation site
She supports trump nonsense
Vicars are generally cowards.
It’s not a debate just a conversation.
What's the difference?
@@ProjectCreativityGuy96Do some research please.
@@ProjectCreativityGuy96 A discussion focuses on exchanging ideas or debating a specific topic, often with a goal in mind. A conversation is a more casual exchange of thoughts or information, often for connection or enjoyment.
Im not religious but Ayaan made a lot of sense.
No she didn't. She didn't want to start from scratch. She just made a quick choice, and said now it makes sense because she has a predisposition.
@@ShawnMenchaca like dawkins has one for his reason to actually tell him reasonable outcome.
@@ShawnMenchaca this
I am concerned that this was your take away from her words
@@ShawnMenchaca She rather confuses me:
1. Her Christianity is in relation to Islam, Not as an independently chosen option
2. Does it mean if She did not get to the bottom she surely would not have changes religion.!!?
Religious people still allergic to straightforward questions, lol.
Dawkins: Virgin births, risen from the dead... real or not?
Ayaan: I choose to believe, it's a personal decision...
Dawkins: You're saying virgin births and miracles are a thing? please confirm
Ayaan: I have accepted Jesus into my heart...
Dawkins: For the love of God just answer the question, do you really think it is true that Jesus rose from the dead?!?! Do you seriously believe Jesus was born from a Virgin? True or false?!
Jordan Peterson: Well... it depends on what you mean by "true"
Where this man gets the patience, I will never know
Cheers to Richard Dawkins
Love Ayaan’s point of view on how lost our young people are. Rational humanism. It van also be called a moral vacuum. If there is a vacuum in my soul, I can invite God in, or leave it to my own devices, and unwittingly I’m letting the devil in. As Ayaan says, it’s a choice. Yes Ayaan. I am a Christian. I will continue to pray for you, as you rely on your Savour to walk with you on this journey we call life: all the ups and downs and everything in between, and that God will use your talents and giftedness for His honour and glory. Amen.
As always:
Dawkins: This is superstitious
Religious person: I am emotional and I like it
Aethism is the most emotional when it comes to evidence of their supposed claims
Thesis: Empiricism
Antithesis: Spirit
Synthesis: 2 spheres of existence to 1 underlying reality.
Dawkins: I mock Christianity and that makes it false.
Dawkins is the master of ad hominems. His books sound like a person who believes in God and is mad at Him.
Jesus is the highest act of moral ethics ever recorded by human history. Show me a most influential historial Ethic wave. Jesus by his acts rose to the category of God, since common homosapiens are so nasty, egoistic and cowards, that Jesus seems more of an evolution of the Sapiens. Certainly, we could say Jesus was the only true "Human" Ever, all the rest of us? Just mammals with fear to death, envy, and other trash.
@modernjosephus356 Right mockery doesn't prove truth it just shows ignorance.
I can easily mock atheist does that mean atheism is false?
The evidence of what we believe is the only thing that proves truth🙏
Its betrayal, Ayaan.
Rationality is for common good but the selfish gene triumphed at the end.
She dodged all the indefensibles and jumped track to emphasise personal feelings. The standard template all over again.
Not sure if i am more angry or sad.
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14
Ayan is incompetent and sharing podium with Richard is even worse. She chose to believe- she chose not to believe and then chose to believe in Christ and who knows she returns back to her original faith, since she had a good break for 20 years.
Choosing your beliefs like you choose your clothes, lol
religious people are crazy XD
This was an awesome conversation between 2 friends. I wish we could get more of these types of debates
@@thomaswashington2127 Check out Alex O’Connor for more content like this.
"Why would the universe have the obligation to offer your anything?"
I love this quote from Dawkins.
It seems like he is saying to her "I can't believe you believe this. I don't get how someone I respect so much can change their mind" it is beautiful. As a Christian I fail to see God in front of me and treat God like a tv show or chore. There is a real struggle here and it is what I take for granted sometimes.
I read "Infidel" and loved it. I consider Ayaan a hero but, listening to her talk in this conversation, makes me think she has been infected by Jordan Peterson. Cannot give a straight answer to a simple question. Such a great conversation between two fantastic people.
"Come to me all who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me for I am gentle and humble in heart and you shall find rest for your soul."
--Jesus
Matthew 11:28-29
God doesn't exist. The Bible is a lie.
- me
Show me one shred of evidence Jesus ever did anything for anyone.
@@FinsUp22 ALL of "us"! ;)
YOU, show US He hasn't done anything! LOL! (Christianity is the most persecuted Faith in History yet it is here. What Year is it?)
@@FinsUp22 Jesus Lives, I once prayed for God to raise my dead pup, and it didn't happen, that broke my tiny mind. But coming closer to God, He is real, so real that language is difficult to explain Him, a Spiritual God to whom nothing is impossible yet you cannot control and harness. Full of compassion and love and yer justice and truth. We have come a long way to be here.
@@FinsUp22 The bible is generally recognized as historical and accounts for the many miracles that he performed. In addition, there are many independent Roman Pagan and hostile Jewish accounts outside of the bible that document the miracles that Jesus performed (although they credit them as "magic") His character is verified across religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. Also, Jesus is the most influential person of all time spreading the message of Love, and saving peoples lives on earth and beyond, so he has some cred.
This was more of an emotional monologue than debate.
Emotional from Dawkins?
atheist abdoooools do not debate. They're like muslim abdooools lie all the time. It's not possible to debate a liar. And taqqyya is an intergal part of pdf file atheist religion as it is in islame. Actually, there's no obvious difference between atheist religion and islame. Mupedohammad or mao. No difference.
@@Shaliaj7 I was surprised that Dawkins put up with monologue! Christians seems to do the same thing under nonsensical discourse: evangelize. This is what Ayaan did. Wasted my time.
@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasntquick question, how does one can believe in morals but not in good/evil ? Isn’t morality defined by what’s good and bad ?
@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt but we’re talking about personal morals and their relation to what’s good/evil. Objective morality is something different which wasn’t the subject of my question. You can believe something is good and another evil, and base your morals around a personal opinion, but it doesn’t mean everybody will agree though.
So I ask the question again : How can someone believe in morals, but doesn’t have a personal opinion on what’s good/evil ?
This isn't a debate about "God".... Or Christianity, or religion really whatsoever
😊
Good to know. Wont be watching it
It was at first but at end of debate it turned israeli lobby propaganda
Are You on the wrong video? You must be!
yeah its hard to reason with someone who has had a trumatic experience and their religion saved them reguardless if the religion is actaully true or not, its true to them. Imo theres was no point in her coming on a pannel with dawkins as it was a personal experience and she litterally says to the audience its all subjective.
im not taking away from her story she deserves a platform just not this one
As a Christian, I find Ayaan Hirsi Ali talking about her conversion to Christianity cringe and a little frustrating. I'm surprised that so many other commenters on this video, even atheist ones, are supporting her here. Dawkins is on point here. You can't become a Christian because you like the society or think it's the only solution to the world's problems--you have to believe, not choose to believe, in the Trinity, that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles during his ministry and rose bodily from the dead. One should come to that belief, like I have, on an EVIDENTIAL basis, not on the basis of liking the society. I have always liked, for instance, the Christian ethos and the teachings of Jesus, but I'm a Christian (having been an atheist) because I think we have fantastic historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection and reliability of the New Testament. Christianity, for someone who considers themself Christian, should be considered FACT as well as faith.
I actually used to think these way. However, I am African who witnessed real travails and sufferings, of others, not necessarily my own, I had to rethink on this.
People came to Christ then and now for different reasons, such as healing, hunger, desperation and also for love. Even his disciples all deserted him but still came back. And he told Peter, feed my sheep. In Africa, food is an issue to many and offering food, medical help, job, education etc. could be an act of great love. Or protection from violence and terrorism.
People have different paths to God. My journey into Christianity was more of a personal quest for truth and then a realization of God's immense power and love for humanity.
But consider this, Jesus taught that many are called, but few are chosen, that there will be a sorting, and also we need to discipline ourselves and build on our faith. We should be welcoming and open. Many come to the faith by many means and for different reasons, but what matters is the enduring as the end of the matter is better than it's beginning. Further, how did we help win and retain souls for God. He who is not scattering is with me, let him be.
Relax… she’s a baby Christian by her own admission.
I wonder if Ayaan Hirsi Ali has heard about what happens to houses that are built on a foundation of sand...
Of course.
Hers was.
You mean materialism?
@@cvrki7 of course.
you mean religion as the sandy foundation?
@@JohnBarten-e4c Yes. Trying to base a civilization on "Cultural Christianity" is disingenuous and faulty. Especially if you're professing belief cynically for expedient reasons. Reason is sufficient for almost everyone, but divine authority is only good enough for those that believe in it, and if they stop believing it you will have to justify everything with reason anyway, so you're only kicking the can down the road when deciding how your society's laws should work.
Dawkins shows 1)Christianity becomes nobler than Islam because of the contribution and the acceptance of science
2) Political Christians are as deadlier as the Islam…
Ayaan shows
1) Religion is a choice of medicine for the problems of civilization (depression)
2) Christianity is a subjective hallucination that can improve the quality of life.
Fascinating….
Never heard her say it's a "Hallucination"
@@kerhabplays never did she utter the word indeed but it seems she has a divine solution for a political problem like hallucination though known as biological abnormality
I cant think of much more depressing than Christianity being real.
@@LusciousTwinkle ofc you should be. Scared of hell fire?
@@kerhabplays A person made that up. Maybe they had a dream...or maybe they just imagined it. whatever. It was effective propaganda for primitive people....and still is apparently.
Freddy thank you for bringing this to it. Very refreshing to listen to an intelligent and passionate conversation. You did a superb job of facilitating this. I do agree that we can be spiritual bankrupt, I lean more to eastern experience to follow myself. Both individuals are tempting me to read their books! love those red chairs
This shouldn't have been a debate at all. Cause from hearing Ali become Christian it is a way more personal thing to her than her actually being able to prove the existence of God. It saved her. As an aethist Am always of the opinion if you belive something saved your life who dafuq am l to tell you not to believe in that.
Praise The Lord🙌 May The Lord protect Ayaan and bless her to influence many young people, in the name of The Lord Jesus🙏🙌
She has made more atheists and ex-Muslims than anyone on Earth. Which is a huge step forward
Yes, fine, take her but also make jezus pay for her since we no longer want to.
Ayan you've put the conversation back 20 years. You think you say something new. But you just sound like all the other religious people atheists have debated with before.
and where is society now? have we achieved some moral enlightenment? Atheism, to her point, offers no solutions - only a rational critique of religion through the biases of human 'scientific' and hyper-rational understanding.
@chaigasho775 is your point that you are right, the majority of the world is not as smart as you, and an intelligent person succumbing to a view different from yours is setting back the advance of the truth that you are right and if everyone was more like you the world would be a better place? Your comment does suggest that but maybe I have misunderstood.
I choose to believe in Zeus. Therefore Zeus exists.
Yah, it is her rationality, but she believes in emotional things
“I choose to believe there is no God, therefore God does not exist.”
@@DanielTravieso-d3i you say that but you don’t really believe it. I dare you to say a truth claim that you really believe in and provide proof
@@HikeySus Jordan Peterson defense: well, it depends on what you mean when you say "truth" XD
@@HikeySus I believe theists are abused, confused and deluded. Just read all the Conflicting claims like Flying chariots in the bibble and Flying horses in the Kor'an
Ayaan declares that her faith is a "choice". She spends a lot of time explaining her fears that Islam might fill in the gap of moral poverty of a declining western civilization - much more than explaining the essence of her new-found faith. This is not true faith, it's rather fear and anxiety. It isn't a shame that she turned towards religion for comfort, that is how all religions have been established.
I am surprised how calm she is given that Richard rubbished, with argument, her claims.
Being anti genocide, Ayaan, does not mean you're pro Islam. What a stretch that is.
But you dont know abut islam. Without lies islam dies. The real islam teaching is in quran. The real islam make muslim being radical. Islam spread by violance and genocide to christian, jews, even pagans since muhammad, islamnlike kilafat. if you are not radical, it means you are not islam radical muslim is a snake, moderate muslim is grass who hide snakes.
Indeed, nor does it mean that you're an antisemite.
@@lettersquashnor does it mean you're islamophobic
Abortion is also not allowed in Islam. It’s strictly prohibited 🚫
@@cathyaldridge4550 The stretch is calling genocide Israel response to Hamas attacks. Shows you were never targeted for elimination for just who you are like what was done to Jews, Armenians, Herero, Tutsi, Amerindians. Show you don’t even know the founding documents of Hamas.
Very fragile belief. She startled when Richard challenged her about the nonsense of God has biological son!!!! She answered that is my choice??? No logic..would intellectual smart experienced person give such answer??
Logic Is of course very valuable. It is, however, not always the correct tool.
She did answer it. You either didn't understand her answer or didn't pay attention to it
Because the supernatural doesn’t obey the rules of physics. God is above the rules you have to play by. And if you’re a true atheist, why have morals at all? Why not just eat and do drugs till it’s over! Why not just think of yourself and just have fun at other’s expense? An atheist’s life is one of bitterness! An atheist is typically the most angry and bitter human you will ever meet! And I know one thing, why would anyone ever trust an atheist? They have no true fear of being immoral, so why would you ever trust an open atheist?
It never ceases to amaze me lol
@@masti733 You could say that about anything
Did you do the dishes? "I choose to believe I did"
Did you walk the dog? "I choose to believe so"
Did the Civil War happen? "No, and that's my personal choice to believe that"
lmao
I think Ayan is a political opportunist. She did not answer the basic question about her believe .
I agree, just needed to be a Cristian for a position in the Usa
She said choose to belive. Nobody choose to believe. People gets convinced . To believe is not a choose
Believing in something can be a choice bro what are you even talking about
@@InlaudatusProphetahe won’t believe you unless you convince him. Because believing is not a choice for him. Like the concept of choosing to love is alien to him because you don’t choose to love but you fall in love.
@@HikeySus nicely described 👌
So to disbelieve is also not a choice?
@@matthewmorrison9255yes
Ayan is out of her depth. As a new Christian she shouldn’t be engaging in these discussions because she can’t ground her belief in doctrine. I don’t think she’s even read the bible.
She actually admits that she is young in the faith...let her bear witness...remember the samaritan woman after meeting with Jesus? She could not help but testify of this Man who had told her all she had ever done( immediately) ...Maybe there is an audience God will reach here.
@@jonmartin3220 I’m not saying you need to be an expert in the bible, or even have read the entire thing to be a Christian. But if you are an intellectual engaging in Christian apologetics, that’s literally the bare minimum.
Ayan said that modern secular rationalist society is itself a product of Christianity because it appear in the West and not anywhere else, this is itself a false Christian narrative.
Most eastern religions including Confucianism in China, Japan are more modern and secular and arose far before western society get out of dark age at the least.
In India Hinduism may have many issues today but the core philosophies have many atheistic rationalist secular philosophies, like Buddhism where enlightenment itself means the existence of God is not important at all for humanity.
Similarly there are Hindu charvaka philosophy that denies there's any god or afterlife and lay importance on making present life better for everybody.
There are a few more Hindu sects which are essentially atheistic, all of them before Christianity ever left Europe.
I'm not saying this as a Hindu atheist tired of western narrative of inventing everything by renaming it in English, but as a secular rationalist who genuinely believes that religions has hijacked moral values ingrained in the human psyche, twisting and reselling them to us again...
Just like Christianity has stolen pagan culture like Christmas. So people being "cultural Christian" is more like being cultural pagan.
Also since Ayaan seems so impressed by Christianity I must throw some more light on its effect in India. India doesn't have any shortage of its own problem from casteism to perpetual poverty, but Christian missionaries (including "Mother" Teresa) taking people money collected for charity and sending it to Vatican all the while torturing sick and helpless to promote suffering - that's what Christianity brings to India.
So are bishops sexually assaulting children and nuns and getting away with it with the influence of the pope.
Also the few Christian majority states of India are markedly more religious extremists than non-Christian states... So much for Christian secularism.
Since Ayaan has become such a proponent for Christianity missionaries over rationality she's also inadvertently responsible for this...
I agree, Dawkins is being nice to her, Ayaan has fallen from pedestal since she believes hers only hers is the truth.
@@VikramKumar-oy8gqwhere did she say that? Your being arrogant and didn’t get the point
Confucianism is not a religion. Get your shit together or you will get Sharia Law, than your gonna get stoned or worse if unlucky
I didn't hear a point. Just obsfucation and avoiding answering the question. To say she "chooses to believe" the resurrection myth is unhelpful when steel-manning a belief in God.
It's too subjective and a bit rude to the questioner
Well said. High time Ayaan is shown the mirror abt Christianity in poorer countries. Her white man version of Christianity aint fooling no one
Dawkins here is willingly pliant. He is wilfully giving her elbow space. He is not as aggressive as he is in other shows.
Wow what a woman with such brilliance and humility!! Great debate!
She was ignorant.
No you are @@ShawnMenchaca
@@ShawnMenchaca not ignorant. She's a liar and stupid
So she chose to believe... belief is not voluntary, unless you're willingly trying to deceive yourself because it feels good and it's comforting.
Better to accept a harsh truth than a reassuring tale.
Beautifuly said
Jesus Is the TRUTH
You can choose to believe especially events of the past. I choose to believe dinosaurs existed, I have never examined the evidence myself. If I'm sick I can choose to believe I will get better in spite of the evidence. Etc etc
when you are that depressed and something uplifts you, it can really put rose tinted glasses on you. Many years ago I was on the edge of ending it and while driving, put a drum and bass podcast on which unexpectedly truly did make me turn the car around that day. I have a deep love from drum and bass now and especially that record label that was hosting the podcast. So I sort of understand how the brain connects and bonds with something that saves it and how it is possible to delude yourself to give yourself comfort.
You can choose to believe things by choosing to trust things. I haven't conducted a scientific experiment in defence of the claim that the earth is round, but I choose to believe that the earth is round because I have another type of evidence: the accumulation of dozens of people showing me the experiments that other people have done and taking other people's word for it; I trust them. Similarly, you can choose to believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead without having looked through all the archeological evidence that is for and against the event (a lot of that evidence being destroyed). If you trust that the people who wrote the gospels and the epistles aren't lying to you, or if you choose to trust that the prophecies written in the Old Testament (such as Isaiah 53) hundreds of years prior to the life of Jesus are about Jesus, then you can choose to believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead.
I live in Sweden. Known to be one of the world's most secular countries. Sweden's society from preschool to top political debates teach and talk about moral all the time. I am sure it is the same with the rest of the secular world. There is no gap in moral teachings and discussions in a secular world.
It is the spiritual gap that is more liberal to fill in whatever you like, from birdwatching to catholicism.
I hope that's true. I don't know much about what they teach at school these days. But I do see a lot of evidence of mind virus infections, and "morality" seems to come in the distorted ignorant form of "be kind" (which is ignorant because it's not about critical thinking, it's about letting everyone get whatever they want, not objecting, not offending anyone, and also expecting everyone else to indulge you). It's the woke mind virus. And I work alongside young people just out of school, and I've yet to meet any of them that have the first clue about critical thinking.
People always mock what they don't understand 🙏🏻
' I choose to believe...' What the hell does that even mean?!?!
Your reason can only take you so far. There are things which are unknowable and unprovable but which we must consider in our lives.
The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, you cannot be genuinely sure, so it is up to you whether you believe or do not believe. Belief, and faith, are each a choice that you are able to make. You can consciously choose or reject it. Doubt does not contradict faith. It really boils down to what kind of life and what kind of existence you want.
That truth is irrelevant for her.
@@chadhogan4979 Since christianity is based on the bible, and many things in the bible are not physically possible, doesn't that call into question the whole thing?
This is what a person says when they simply don't want to keep asking important questions because it really is tiring and often overwhelming.
It's a I'm gonna take a break position. Take a break from intense scrutinizing of beliefs, hopes, and big ideas.
And maybe they'll resume the questions later in life or maybe never at all again.
@@chadhogan4979Some of us don't have that level of control over our minds. I'm incapable of just choosing to believe something. Either I believe it (which for me is the same as knowing it), or I don't, OR I don't know for sure. With Christianity, I don't know if it's true, but I doubt it for several reasons. Therefore, I'm unable to convince or tell my brain to ignore my lack of knowledge and the presence of doubts, and just choose to believe it.
I don't see why Dawkins's and Ali's perspectives aren't compatible. We keep our scientific/rationality perspective when it comes to addressing factual matters about the world, and we can take the moral/spiritual (call it what-you-will) wisdom from religions and other fictions. The major mistake religions made was their attempt at trying to make people believe their irrational, unscientific claims about reality were literally true as opposed to mythological, symbolic and allegorical. There's a lot of allegorical/symbolic interest in the mythology of Genesis, but anyone who takes it as literally true is a fool.
What people need to learn is that just because there's a great deal that's outdated in religions that doesn't mean there isn't also a great deal of value and worth. The problem is that most people aren't intelligent and want to simplify everything to "durrr, either it's literally true and I have to accept it all or it's literally false and I have to reject it all." Once you get past that it's clear the only sensible thing to do is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Ali and Dawkins are essentially the same; both are cultural Christians, it's merely that Ali wants to embrace more of the "Christian" side and Dawkins wants to embrace more of the "culture" side. It's not day and night, and it's day and later that day.
Yet, by endorsing Christianity, a lot of the ignorant parts unfortunately piggyback with the good part and Ali is unable to filter those by promoting the whole package.
What is there of "value and worth" in religion that cannot be gained from reason and the scientific method?
@@frankxu4795 The "ignorant parts" can only "piggyback with the good parts" if people let them. That's what the "separating the wheat from the chaff" part of my post addressed. Is Ali "promoting the whole package?" I've yet to hear her comment on, say, any of the laws of the OT.
@@twntwrs First, science and reason have nothing to say about morality. Science can tell you how things are, not how they should be; reason can only insure that your moral systems are consistent, not that they're good.
Second, science and reason don't create stories that mimic the patterns and resonate with the experiences of people's lives. People do not live by fact and reason alone, they live by values and metaphors and emotions/feelings and, yes, fictions; "manifold illusions" as Yeats called them, and we can't live without them. Without them all is nihilism.
@@jonathanhenderson9422 Take away all the reasons why something may be good and you would be left with something that may well be pure evil and you won't know it.
She is blowing my mind with her eloquent explanations. That alone is beautiful.
She said I made a choice. And that's a choice. Gtfoh 😂
and thus god exist
Are you touched by her voice or the context of her speech? Because she made shallow arguments
What exactly did she say that blew your mind?
I wish I could use her rationale in my own life.
..."The dishes aren't done yet..."
Me: "I respect your choice to believe that."
..."You said you were going to do the dishes."
Me: "I choose to believe that I did."
This lady Ayaan was lost and depressed, she exchanged one lie with another, she desperately needs to "belong" as majority of humans do, because for centuries we are born into it. She still seems depressed to me, the "Christian faze" may not last, she is very poor and fragile in this discussion, Dawkins is really trying to be a gentleman here, as if he did not want to upset her. For human kind to accept that there is no god and there has never been is to fall of a pedestal, is to stop worshipping themselves, something that egoistic, animal like human nature will never do! .... Did god and religion has ever changed anything for the better ! absolutely zero! quite the opposite!
This conversation is making me think of Jordan Peterson's discussions about Christianity. I think JP would say that the fact that Christianity provides comfort is significant, real and demonstrates a form of truth.
The comfort may be “real” and “true” and a person is welcome to that. The real question of what is “true” is whether there was a global flood and all animals crammed in an ark, whether the sun stood still in the sky so Joshua could finish a battle and whether God sacrificed 1/3 of himself to pay the price of malfunctions he created in the system.
The host gave waaaaaay too much time to Ayanni.
It was a nice and polite discussion, and Dawkins was a gentleman. However, he knows that the moral equivalence he grants between Islam and Christianity is not true. He rationalizes his position by saying that the only thing significantly different between the two is that Christians don’t take Christianity seriously. The two religions differ greatly at their points of origin and have produced far different fruit because of their differences. He knows this.
Yup
If Islam is cancer then Christianity is diabetes
Kudos to the exemplary moderator! An exemplary debate! Thank you!
Perhaps we should stop calling Christianity a religion but a personal belief or spiritual relationship with God the Creator.
That’s still a religion per the definition.
No stop watering this down until it’s a million different little religions
@@Sikandros Too late.
It will never cease to astonish me how very intelligent people (much more intelligent than I am) can in the stretch of a single sentence utter a blatant contradiction that I can see as clear as water whereas they seem totally unable to even suspect it's there.
And the answer to your wonderment continues to elude you? Perhaps your self appraisal is well founded.
We are human. We are not automatons. Bar the human brain that has impairment to its emotional capacity, we are never purely or wholly rational.
If we were truly a rational species, there is no need for indoctrination, propaganda, cajoling, national campaigns, civil activism, and the like. There is no need for advertising.
Why would grownups not listen to reason, you may wonder?
We don't make decisions purely by reason. There are many variables, known and unknown to us, that influence us when we make decisions. There is cognitive bias. There is motivated reasoning. So many.
Do you assume that atheists are more rational than theists? It is face-palming to witness people who claim to not believe in God because of the lack of evidence but go on to get hoodwinked by pseudoscience and new age rubbish. It is very common in the UK.
0uu88888hgg😊
0:24
Example?
@TheSpoovy When somebody says that religion is nonsense, they are really saying, as Ayan pithily emphasizes, that "there's nothing." That we come from nothing, that the entire universe comes from nothing and, therefore, there's nothing in store for us. That alone is a monumental nonsense. If you add to that that the basis for your conviction is science, you are implying that *nothing can be true unless scientifically proven.* Of course, this statement cannot be true either-unless it's scientifically proven. Henceforth, a long chain of contradictions ensues, one more bizarre than the previous.
The Lady and her husband make their living by talking, talking and talking. She has choosen a topic that resonates with lots and people and its controversial.... She is not convincing to me at all. Weak arguments
Her husband has worked to open the Uni of Austen, Texas.
Yes, ‘weak’ was the word i thought of during the whole conversation.
A person who's definition of evidence is defined in a materialist, scientific sense, will view anything outside that definition as "weak".
And what have achieved in life ? You sound like bitter jealous human .
Her “talk “has empowered millions and what have you done to compare ?
:) This lady is more of anti Islam than is faithful about christianity.
Many religions have stories of virgin births, including Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and ancie.
My take is Aayan has realised that not everybody is intelligent enough to live as an Atheist. And she is offering Christianity as an alternative. .
😂
Hahaha 🤣🤣
That is the only alternative is christ and that alone
Athiests can NOT categorically condemn gRapists, PDFfiles, thief's, liars, deceivers etc etc...why? Because who gives you the moral standpoint? If not God? You think humans have evolved into being 'righteous' mamals? You think that humans have evolved from nuclear and matter in the atmosphere to now being what we are? Do you think we were monkeys? 😂😂😂 atheist are more brain 💀 than anyone in the religious sector.
lol I love her, but she’s bullsh*itting everyone lol… If you were listening to her podcast in the last 4 years, u know she’s just playing a political game.
Agreed. When someone says "I choose to believe" it sounds a lot like "I'm choosing to act as if is true". After all, belief isn't really a choice.
@@citizenghosttownright she’s playing chess and everyone is playing checkers. She wants to have more of a cultural influence, and in the long run she’s gonna have a huge influence
@@sanra167 Maybe, but I'm not so sure. What made Ayaan Hirsi Ali interesting (and a minor celebrity) was her personal narrative and apostasy from Islam. If she's now just another Christian on the Political Right -- well, those are a dime a dozen. There may also be a simpler reason for her conversion. She has two children now and along with her husband (another atheist who values "cultural" Christianity) she embraces the utility of Christianity in raising them.
Fantastic moderation of the discussion, wow
Ali, faith. Dawkins, truth.
"Faith offers you something but it doesn't make it true" I agree with Richard Dawkins
Are you sure
It is faith based on evidence. Faith finds meaning from the Object it is placed upon. Faith by itself is useless. It is the object of faith that gives that faith validity and value.
@@IfeanyiJohn-cw8otOf course, why would you need to "have faith" in something that has empirical evidence? Do you have "faith" that you have two hands or do you "Know" that you have them?
@@PoliticsCurrentEvents-kk2020No, Faith in any Religion is a belief without any Imperical Evidence .
How does a sighted person describe color spectrum to a blind person? How can you explain to an atheist the depth of rationality to Christianity? The Holy Spirit must lead the way.
It's vice versa. You get blind when you are told what to believe in.
You believe stuff you were indoctrinated to believe, it truly is a disease when you cant question your own beliefs :) atheism wins!
I’m not a Christian, but I understand the teachings of Christianity and I respect it. I see parallels with all religions. I used to be an atheist, and came to my own belief in god after my own “rock bottom”.
I do not see atheists as lesser than at all. I see them as brave to be able to venture through life without a torch. I myself, needed that “helping hand” from the Holy Spirit or whatever you want to call it. We need scepticism, and what atheists do is challenge the aspects of religion that have become corrupt. They are very much needed for our soul growth.
Jesus never judged anyone. He would break bread with everyone. He described us all as children of god. The kingdom of heaven is not a private club where you need a special membership to get in; it’s there for you, if you need it or not. Just like how a truly loving mother is there for you, only in moments where you truly need her. I needed god, but many others don’t, and I respect them as well.
@@user-victoriouscenturion I would that be true for the child raised to be an atheist?
@@janicedobis6490 I believe children should choose their way - to be or not to be atheists. I never told my kids that god does not exist. I teach them what is right and wrong , good or bad according to common sense and the well-being of society. If you claim that only religion/God can provide morality to society, you are wrong, and here is why - since there are many religions contradicting each other, humanity has come to national legislations, suitable for all citizens . I dont see life in grey or black - imagination and creativity bring colors to our lives
What is she talking about ?? . .. "I choose to believe" ... we dont choose to believe in anything . Belief isnt a choice . We humans are either convinced of something , or we aren't. Thats it .
Amazing debate🙏🏻💕🙏🏻
Dawkins is so right when he said Christianity has moved from total blind faith which Islam is not able to do!!
Because Muslims don't have blind faith..... It is purely rational sensible and experienced.....
@@muneebahmadmohsin-jj8bg how hijab is rational?? How women forced to stay un educated is rational?? These kind of things changed in Christianity
@@NageswaraRaoPerivelago educate yourself first and not what your godi media and whatsapp university taught you ✌️❤️
@@NageswaraRaoPerivelaits unnatural for your society my friend...not for Muslims
How is he right?
Fantastic to see a good old debate with 2 sensible people
If you study the matter thoroughly, you do come to the point of knowing that you can neither prove nor disprove Christianity. Not in the most rigorous sense. So, we do, at that level, make a choice regarding what to believe.
Why does scientific evidence = rigor? "Rigor" would imply thoroughly examining all evidences. The scientific method excludes certain evidences because it has no means of evaluating them.
I would argue the scientific method is one of the worst methods of examining reality when used alone. A person who employs the scientific method alone, neither examines the inherent presuppositions nor provides scientific evidence for those presuppositions.
We can disprove that the bible isn't the product of either omniscience &/or omnibenevolence, likewise the earth wasn't created in 6 days & so forth.
You can neither prove nor disprove the iliads, rig vedas, book of the dead...heck you can neither prove or disprove harry potter either.
When willingly and fullheartly search God with a humbling heart and mind, you will find him, but not through external means but internally, from the heart and mind.
But you can prove that many of the things in the bible are not physically possible. If even part of the bible can be disproven then you have succeeded in disproving the existence of the christian god, as the bible is supposed to be the literal word of god.
This is a touching exploration from both sides of the spectrum. I respect Ayaan's conclusion and I appreciate her courage in sharing her very personal story. As an atheist, I struggle with understanding. I always go back to it being a choice between comforting lies and the uncomfortable truth. I think some people struggle with the reality that this is it. It can be a dark and dreadful transition if you are accustomed to the idea that there is some comforting entity out there that cares for you. I was raised Christian, so I do understand how the transition can be difficult, but to deny facts, to deny the absence of evidence is ultimately psychologically unhealthy.
As a meditator I can say Dawkin made more sense to me. I can totally understand what Aayan went through but she filled that hole with something ‘comforting’. But in reality she just fell into another hole, giving up on self belief and seeking refuge in something external, that’s the false path to spiritual growth and freedom, the trap we all fall into, clinging to our own beliefs and concepts.
Dawkin believes the world came from nothing and offered nothing in his presentation. In his attempt to offer “something” he run to one the emanated from Christianity which Ayaan clearly exposed him. His obsession with the word “nonsense” is the take away from this. Atheists offer nothing, including “sense”
She just equated white western atheist Gaza protesters as being Islamist? I think I know what she’s all about now.
Yeah, she's only a 'Christian' because new atheism didn't oppose Islam enough for her.
She says the protesters are unwittingly accepting the framework of Islamism and promoting it (while still being atheists, perhaps wilfully blindly so).
My most ambitious goal came about after believing for 70 years that the universe was created ... to change my system of belief to the scientific theory that in one form or another, the universe and energy always existed ... no creator ... no plan ... and to believe that suffering of all forms of life ... is natural.
If people believe they can't be moral unless they have religion in their lives ... that is a sad statement about the mentality of humans in general. It's as though you are saying ... "I can't be moral unless I fear that a god is going to punish me if I'm not moral."
I am almost 85 years of age now ... and I believe that if I treat each situation with as much kindness as it deserves ... I can't DO better than my best ... and "let the chips fall where they may."
You now believe that the universe did not begin, but always was? Is there any science pointing to that conclusion rather than it having a beginning?
If suffering is natural why seek to remedy it or restrict it? Who decides what is and is not moral? What if I disagree with you? What authority do you have to tell me I'm wrong when we are each equally the creations of a random process of chance in the context of meaningless chaos all around since always?
If there is bad and good, then there is God, because God is, by definition, the highest good.
If there is no good and no bad, how do you even know what kindness is? How do you make a moral judgement on your conduct? Relative to what?
@@chadhogan4979 There isn't any "remedy" for suffering on planet earth ... and according to those in religions ... suffering in the hereafter continues for wicked, EVIL souls for eternity.
As an Atheist, I believe that suffering ends when the bodies die, as it does for all forms of life when their bodies die.
Personally ... world over ... each one of us decides what is and what is not moral ... and it's plain that because we are selfish beings ...we all break our own and other people's concepts of moral codes.
As an Atheist I don't have any authority to tell you that you are wrong ... I just have the freedom to debate with you that I believe your system of belief is wrong ... from my personal point of view.
I suggest that you try leaving your religious cult to join a different religious cult and see how fast you are shunned by the people who now think you are evil and of the devil. Those in religions are not kind, if you try to leave them and their theology behind. They might even kill you ... while reminding you that you should not have insulted "GOD" by leaving HOLY TRUTH for EVIL LIES.
When it pertains to the age-old theories of whether the universe was created or whether it always existed ... that can't be known by scientists or by those in religion. All we have is faith in our own theories ... and I went from investing my faith in the theory that a god created the universe ... to the scientific theory that the universe always existed.
We can also put our faith in the theory that the universe started with a BIG BANG ... but no matter which theory we choose ... it's all theory and nothing other THAN theory.
Thanks for the chance to converse with you, and I wish you the best no matter which theory you choose to believe.
@James-872 Thank you. Your support is much appreciated.
@@chadhogan4979 perfectly said!
@@junevandermark952 as you said, no one can know for sure if the universe began or has always been, but logically it makes more sense that it had begun.
So there is a choice to believe in something greater than yourself, or nothingness. What one do you think is good and which one is evil?? Considering all we have are choices, which one is the path towards the greater good of existence?
(In my opinion) and in Dawkins’ view also, anyone who claims to hear a voice in their head or ‘sees the light’ is delusional. Richard was being polite to his co speaker, compared to similar exchanges in previous debates.
The idea of someone guiding you from within is often based on little more than narcissistic solipsism.
To have a moral code and to adhere to what is ‘right’ does not require one to be Christian or follow any other religion for that matter.
Personal stories vs logic, evidence
Glad you mentioned logic.
What is the scientific evidence that conclusively proves a) logic exists and b) logic is true?
@@alisterrebelo9013common sense. But y'all just ranting about definitions.
@@NEELZE99 Define common sense. You just assume I'm going to agree with you. Well your athiest common sense and my Christian common sense are not the same thing.
So explain to me, how can the average person arrive to your definition of common sense?
Aren't athiests supposed to be more logical than Christians? So why are you struggling to define basic words?
@@alisterrebelo9013 If you'll pardon me, I'll define common sense to you. It's the evolved knowledge of experience passed on and accepted as true by humanity as a whole. And if you'll pardon me again, why do you struggle to show any evidence that your god created the universe beyond you read it in a book with a talking donkey in it?
@@TonyEnglandUK I can't answer your question, because a) I haven't made a claim about the existence of God and b) we don't agree epistemologically, on what 'evidence' means and why you arbitrarily insist on defining it in, purely in a materialist scientific sense.
"Evolved knowledge of experience passed on an accepted as true by humanity as a whole"
Using your definition as quoted, humanity has, as a whole, for the history of humanity considered the existence of God as common sense. This is not my claim, merely an observation based on your definition.
My turn, what scientific evidence can bring forth to conclusively prove the existence of a universal logic that you are currently appealing to, as well as is assumed to be true when conducting scientific experiments?
13:34 man i love richard man, hes gonna tell it how it is!
He had very little to say.
13 mins - Dawkins says that “Mary had to free of sin” and that is why the conception of Jesus had to be immaculate. Please note that Mary was fully human and was absolutely not without sin.
That's actually even more to the point of religion being man made. Men in this era would believe a superior being would never arrive through female reproductive parts. And as others have pointed out, Jesus is one of several religious figures born of a virgin. This is more evidence of the man made nature of Christianity
It’s a Catholic doctrine that Mary was conceived without original sin and was free from personal sin
@@AChickandaDuckYeah the Immaculate conception was of Mary not of Jesus. Mary was conceived without son right from the get go, that’s the idea.
Are these things fundamental to Christian or Catholic belief?...I don't think so.
To me, one can be a good Christian even without believing in the immaculate conception, virgin birth and even resurrection. The core of Christianity is Jesus and the love and compassion as personified in him.
@@georgekuttygeorge8247 then you are just a good person not a faithfully adhering catholic.
Yeah he can't all of a sudden call her stupid. He knows she's not. I love that part.
Kudos Ayaan, Jesus Christ will protect you, Amen
Can someone please timestamp when the debate begins.
Unfortunately, it never does. I'm off to watch some classic Hitchslaps.
Love and respect Ayaan, please stay safe, please stay strong.
Respect to both these people for having such a mutually respectful discussion. We need more of their approach. Dawkins seems a highly intelligent man who genuinely wants to know the truth. But he keeps coming back to her beliefs being ‘obvious nonsense’ without explaining why it is obvious. If you start with an assumption that there is no God and no supernatural, then of course anything that requires a supernatural God is going to be ‘obvious nonsense’. However, given his assumption his conclusions are self-fulfilling. Once she accepted there might be a God then supernatural events stopped being obvious nonsense. Basically she has an open mind and he has a closed mind that self-fulfils his pre-determined, non-negotiable, assumption. She might still be wrong. Science can’t prove, or even seriously inform, whether there is or isn’t a God. However her choosing to believe there is since there is no proof there is not is equally rational and equally likely to be factually correct, and also much more consistent with her experience that belief in God leads to greater personal happiness and her social view that genuine Christianity (ie the one Jesus taught, not the dramatically modified version some churches have promoted that is inconsistent with Jesus) is better for society that Islam, atheism or any other alternative.
He also makes an error saying Christianity grew up from the Middle Ages. Actually medieval Christianity’ was so different from the teaching of Christ it wasn’t Christian. What modern Christianity has done is returning to believing the teaching of Christ whereas medieval Christianity was a superstition with almost no teaching of Christ in it.
He also makes an error saying Christianity grew up from the Middle Ages. Actually medieval Christianity’ was so different from the teaching of Christ it wasn’t Christian. What modern Christianity has done is returning to believing the teaching of Christ whereas medieval Christianity was a superstition with almost no teaching of Christ in it.
Where is the data that backs up this claim that atheism has left a whole generation with a moral vacuum? This debate makes no sense without that claim substantiated properly.
Personally, I feel much more fulfilled without the grips of religion on my thoughts. I am able to, without fear, learn and question things that I was too afraid to when I was a Christian.
Questioning biological realities like male and female.
Tranxition surgeries.
Destranxition surgeries.
Happies for Palestine
The above are examples of moral confusion that come about on this side of the year 2000, in the years following the success of the new athiest movement and declining religiosity.
She had wrong skewed observation and built false claim on top of it, people in university support Palestinian cause not Hamas, how being Christian would prevent you from supporting Palestinians right to have a state on their land! only thing would make a Christian support Israel is the prophecy of Jesus coming back and that's approve why Dawkins is hell right in refusing her nonsense.
The 'data' of a moral vacuum is provided by the prominent atheists themselves. Dawkins, Krauss, Harris, Shermer, Coyne, Fry etc ALL support Israel even now. Moral depravity.
As a Christian, I was taught to always question everything, including my faith. Not to question is not to care what you believe in. Being afraid to question implies you didn't really understand the moral foundations of Christianity and how the love of the G(o)od based on objetive moral principles cannot lead to a blinkered approach to anything. Subjective moral principles, as I'm sure you are aware, lead to such hells on earth as the cold and calculated destruction of millions upon millions of innocent children's lives. God save us from such fearlessness.
maybe ask how do you even measure the data you are asking for. Who gets to define it? What if their definition does not suit yours? How do you get the data?
I am afraid, you experienced false Christianity. Real Christianity is a relationship with God and it is not a religion. Thomas doubted and questioned and Jesus showed him evidence.
These are not two equals. Dawkins is a brilliant scientist, so listening how his brilliant mind reaches conclusions, is always worth the time. Ayaan - while I have no doubt that she a decent person and of ok intelligence - doesn't have the same fertile and interesting background. She spent her life, mostly, talking about herself and her biography. And while that has some importance and value on the background of the dangers of Islam and Islamism, it is entirely irrelevant when it comes to any other religion of her choosing. Jains and Christians won't become more mellow because of her "insight", she cannot warn the world of the dangers of Christianity as she knows nothing of it. So I honestly don't care - she's 100% irrelevant in that field.
I guess that Dawkins endured this painful session because he is a kind man and wanted to show his support to her but he was clearly suffering.
He'll accept that he was just wrong Ayaan was never an atheist, she was always a temporarily confused believer.
Right after she told him she was having thoughts of self-deletion and severe depression, he calls Christianity "B*&ls^%t". Yes he was so supportive.
Edit - Also, lovely use of the no true Scotsman fallacy, I almost missed it.
@@alisterrebelo9013 of course his support of her doesn't extend to supporting superstition. What did you expect?
Ah yes, you have problems with the definition of the True Scotsman fallacy. That's why.
It is a shame such a " brilliant scientist" cannot seem to have any insight into his own "fundamentalist atheistic assuptions" which he hides behind as he continues to assert his moral purity in only being committed to "truth".
Materialistic determinism and the nihilism it spawns took Ayaan to the edge of the horrible abyss. Thank God Richard is still a good enough friend to care and be glad she didn't fall over like many desperate people have. So glad to see Ayaan humbly and powerfully pointing people Jesus and Hope.
@@ruthoates7137 I don't know what "atheistic assuptions" are but my money is you not understanding what atheism means. I think you confound atheism for antitheism or positive atheism here.
There is also no "materialistic determinism", at least not anymore. That was a vague objections of religious folks against classical physics and it too is based on a lack of understanding.
And finally, it couldn't have driven Ayaan to the abyss, as she is neither a scientist nor was she a true unbeliever. She just had a fall out with Islam.
Christianity take all or nothing, watch the space Richard is coming.
"we are more than material"
That's a bold claim, for which there is no evidence, and indeed there can be no evidence.
So it's a nonsense.
I expect better from someone trying to interact with Dawkins.
In fact you will find many physicists explaining that matter is an illusion and the apparently material world is effectively an illusion. Everything is energy and about energy we still have so much to learn.
@@chelseapoet3664life is in consciousness, that thing scientists know nothing about
You do not believe “we are more than material”? Your thoughts? Emotions? Those are material? Surely you can’t believe we understand everything?
Dawkins uses human logic which is BEYOND HUMAN LOGIC as revealed by the bible..
Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I was once lost but now I'm found... Was blind but now I see♥️
“Christianity is about love”…for 1.5B Muslims as well?
There is no hate like Christian love.
@@keithhunt5328allahu akhbar!
Relax, I was just kidding
Yes Jesus came for everyone including the Muslims.
Have you ever stopped to consider why:
- Mariam (Mary), the mother of Isa (Jesus) is the ONLY named woman in the Quran (literal speech of Allah)
- Mariam is the only sinless woman in the Quran (Quran 3:42)
- Isa (Jesus) is the only sinless man in the Quran (Quran 19:19)
- Isa creates life in the way Allah created life by breathing into it (Quran 5:110)
- The followers of Isa will be made superior to the unbelievers (Quran 3:55)
- Muhammed's father is in hell (Sahih Muslim 203, Book 1, #408)
- Muhammed' mother is in hell (Sahih Muslim 976a, Book 11, #134 and Quran 9:113)
- Muhammed sins 70 times per day (Sahih Jami` at-Tirmidhi Book 47, Hadith 311)
@@alisterrebelo9013Simple. Religions plagiarise each other.
A.man of his age who cusses out, that says a lot about his beliefs. How does anyone even listens to him. On the contrary this well educated woman, so humble yet articulate, non confrontational, it is amazing.
The natural man does not understand the things of the spirit of God, neither can he understand them because they're spiritually discerned.
@@disgusted3191 🙏
This man understands more about religion than any of you blind worshippers. He views the universe in a more profound way and that is with Science and therefore discards GOD and so should everyone in this world.
If Christopher Hitchens was alive, he would have demolished Ayaan absolutely- compulsory love, scapegoating which is core to Christianity is disgusting
I admire Richard for his honesty, in saying his beliefs may or may not be true. As well Ayaan's honesty is commendable. Knowing there is a God (an intelligent consciousness behind all this), is not a matter of reason, or feeling, or faith. The yogi's of India teach a technique whereby direct perception of God can be had, beyond reason, feeling, or faith. Learning to control the life force within the body by use of anciently developed psychophysiological techniques of meditation, in which the breath and heart action can be stilled by the decarbonisation of blood, leads to direct perception of our soul and its oneness with the Source (God), which is supreme joy, wisdom. We continue to live even without the props of the body - breath and heart beat - they have shown. There are many teachings of Jesus in the Gospels that refer to the fact that he also understood this and taught such things to his close disciples. "The light of the body is in the eye. If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light" (Matthew 6;22-29), is one. The Bible says, "Be still and know that I am God", and "The Kingdom of God is within you" refers to proof being evident by an inward searching - with spine straight and eyes focused at the point between the eyebrows (the spiritual eye), going deeper than reason, feeling, or faith. Anyway, Freddie, as usual, does a great job as mediator, in my opinion. Thank you Freddie...
Now THAT is a fine example of what Dawkins called "theological bullsh*t".
Jorpak Choprason grade woo...
@@twntwrs It's a Paramahansa Yogananda kind of woo. A true and beautiful woo at that. By devotional and rigorous perseverance using the scientific technique of Kriya Yoga meditation, or a similar one, over many years (or lifetimes if necessary), anyone can realise the truth - that we are a spark of the Infinite (a soul wave on the ocean of Spirit). As the guru has stated - "Through use of the Kriya key, persons who cannot bring themselves to believe in the divinity of any man, will behold, at last, the full divinity of their own selves."
@@johndeighan2495 I would expect nothing less than that comment from one who has yet to let in the light. [Not that I claim anything other than a willingness to put in some effort in an attempt to validate this awesome ancient truth].
@@deancooling3480 I've already put in whatever effort is needed to know that Jesus Christ wasn't an Indian yogi disguised as a Jewish preacher. Not much effort is needed to know that. But a lot of effort, a lot of lies and self-deception, is required to believe it.
I totally understand Ayaan. There has to be a good balance of faith and reason. Apply reason to faith such that it doesn’t make you act like a virus but rather use the faith to enhance your inner being and to be a good force for others .
th-cam.com/users/liveFWpqqqZn7Kg?si=sFQlm1SiIRNl8DwP
Faith in god and reason are not compatible.
That's makes absolutely no sense.
Did she say that the history of western civiliation is mainly Christian!? Does she think, that before we started counting, Europeans was just cave men? I wonder where words like science, democracy and psychology come from.
She means the spiritual philosophy which underlies the development of western civilization. Of course science is part of it but that is not the religion/philosophy.
@yidiandianpang how condescending to suggest that a proposed intellectual like Hirsi Ali does not know "history" from "spiritual philosophy". And also, this tell me that you haven't bothered to research Christian philosophy outside of theology, because then you'd discover that most of it is based on stoicism which is *tadaah* a roman philosophy, which not only was very popular in the early days of the roman empire and became increasingly popular with Marcus Aurelius, but it also has deep roots in *tadaah* the Greek antiquity tradition of thought. The fundament of Christian philosophy is heathen. If not, it would probably never have caught on amongst Romans in the years of Constantine.
And the claim that Christian philosophy underlines the development of Western civilization, is just flat out wrong. It has had a great and devastating influence on a Western civilization, which we have tried to come to terms with several times, first during the renaissance (which got It's name from the rebirth of antiquity) and later in the Age of Enlightenment. Both periods were influenced by the rediscovering of ancient Greek and roman philosophy, and modern science, reason, politics, and scepticism have developed IN SPITE of christianities' attempts to undermine these things. We would have been so much more advanced by now if the Romans had not seen a potential political benefit in Christianity in the 300s AD.
@@Signebperry And may Constantine be tortured in hell for all eternity.
I work with people trying to quit drug addiction, many of whom turn to religion. On the surface it makes religion seem good but it becomes a crutch distracting them from the allure of drugs while the cravings are still present.
None of what you said makes sense. Just so you are aware.
@cupra2Jock. Which part? The fact that many use religion to avoid drug addiction? It's quite common.