my uncle was murdered in november and i’m 110% with josh on this one. the killer only got 6 years and my family is angry everyday, i don’t understand how people in similar situations can forgive
I’m with Josh. Would you allow a “rehabbed” murderer alone with your child? Once you cross the taboo of killing someone can you ever really be trusted?
Depends. I saw a case on this man named Clark who was S.A’d for years by his Boy Scout leader, afterwards he descended into dysfunction in his own life but he hadn’t hurt a fly. However after seeing the Boy Scout leader years later with another young boy knowing what he was probably doing he snapped and went with a friend to his house later that night and killed the guy. He says he regrets it and now speaks about his story all over the world. I don’t think he’s a bad man at all (from what I know) and I don’t think I’d mind him around my kids if he was someone I personally knew.
@@OLALALA1019anyone who S.A any person especially a child doesn't deserve to breath we should use chomos for clinical trials instead of rats the rat deserves life more then the chomo
I LOVE Josh even more now!!! 100000% agree with him! I don’t think people realize that sociopathy is not something that can be cured. A personality is beginning to be solidified in the teen years and yes, there can be some changes with age, but a complete lack of remorse means something is missing in the person’s brain that can never be fixed.
100% agreed with Josh on his take of people being rehabilitated, young adults being charged as adults for brutal crimes like this, and families of victims being the ones having the final say on if person is released or not. However, I agreed with Kendall on it being a case by case thing.
As a Brit one of the worst parts of this is that when they are released, they’ll more than likely be given new identities and won’t have to face the social ramifications of their actions at all.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood? I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@Kelsey0652call the police run away to a neighbor a family member tell someone you thinking about killing your abuser idk lol but ppl barley get a pass bc someone has sa them . Even though I sympathize I rather run then kill .
I know this may be controversial, but I don't feel someone in a state of grief and seeking retribution should be in any position deciding the fate of someone else. A board of informed psychologists and legal experts should be making these kinds of decisions ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS.
At this stage, I think most of us have lost trust in so-called “experts”. They are just as prone to bias as the rest of us. Leave the judgment to ordinary people (in the form of a jury) and God.
Ummmm, so you think people stop grieving? How long is the grief stage? *asking for someone who loss their father from an illness. FAMILY CHOICE = Life/ the chair!!!
I’m with Josh on this one. You do the crime, including rape, you should do a LONG time. Don’t care how old they are!!!! As for proven killers, and child molesters, in my opinion, they should get the death penalty, if possible.
This is such a tough topic and I love that you guys openly debated it and didn’t shy away from disagreeing on each others opinions. Say what you mean Josh! Your honesty is extremely comforting because this world can be brutal. Such a great episode!
i’m diagnosed with borderline personality disorder- it doesn’t always come from severe childhood trauma. my psychiatrist explained to me a lot of the time it can be developed when you have a parent/parents who don’t know how to regulate their own emotions and therefore can’t teach their child the right tools/ become neglectful to the child’s emotions/feelings.
Same for me! My parents were dismissive of my emotions and I never saw my mom cry until I was 21 at my dad’s funeral. So it can def come from neglect and a lack of emotional regulation from the parental figures.
But that is childhood trauma if your parent isn't able to even regulate their own emotions around you. Having to deal with caregivers that cont handle their own stuff then a child is around that and not taught how to do it themselves. That def a form of neglect/abuse, emotional and psychological. That kind of abuse has developed murderers because they weren't able to learn appropriate regulation of emotions.
I agree with Josh on this one.. I feel like if you premeditate brutal murder no matter what your age is you forfeit your freedom. You took the time to plan that and it’s your time to do the time for your actions.
I’d love to get a little more screen time for Janelle talking about psychology!!! it’s so interesting- I know she’s busy but maybe a small series focusing on the psychology of these killers would be SO interesting.
There's tons of channels out there with board certified forensic psychologists breaking down these cases. Theyre amazing videos, just gotta search for em
@zooeyzanger3318 she planned it out and had her boyfriend do it.. Yes gypsy rose shouldn't get out I, unfortunately, live in Springfield and am familiar with the gypsy rose case.. She tricked that poor kid into murdering her mother.
I love how passionate Josh is and how considered Kendall and Janelle are when they explore topics like this. A terrible case, but a really great discussion this week guys.
I love how perfectly Kendall and Josh balance each other out. They do such a good job of stating their own opinions and listening to each other even if they don’t agree. By far my favorite podcast.
SA should be treated equally to murder💯 Yet in America it's viewed as "oh well-happens to all women" Males could never understand-it legit happens to all women. If not actual SA, every single woman has at least been harassed or made uncomfortable by a male.
My dad's stepdad was brutally murdered by 4 teens because he wouldn't give them a cigarette. All 4 of those teens have been released from prison and are living their lives, and I don't think it's right. It burns my dad up inside because they took away the only positive father figure in his life because he wouldn't give them a cigarette. My dad even said at the sentence hearing that they should all receive the maximum sentence, and it was completely disregarded because "they were young" and "made a mistake"... I'm with Josh on this one
I agree with Josh on this one. If you commit a horrible crime like this and show no remorse you don’t deserve to be released to live your life, and honestly, I think she is worse than him. He wouldn’t of killed her family if she hadn’t pulled the strings. So if anything he is more likely to be rehabed than her. They may not have been “adults” but at their age they know right from wrong. So they shouldn’t get a “pass” because they weren’t technically adults.
I liked the debate you guys had in this episode, very thought-provoking. Ultimately I agree with Josh's side, premeditated first-degree murder and brutal attacks against the defenseless should be life in prison or death. Both of my parents work in the prison system, some people should never get out. There are not enough resources in the USA to properly rehabilitate the number of these kinds of criminals that we have. In other less serious cases, I think rehab is possible. Some people are just too broken and too harmful. I love to hear y'all's discussions, I look forward to every podcast Kendall, Josh, and the team put together, and I listen to each new episode the day it comes out while I work. Keep up the great work.
Team Kendall all the way. Should be case by case. Kim was being punched in the face at 6 years old by mom and her dad was absent. This is detrimental to a child’s psychological development. We can act surprised by this behavior but she learned violence as a coping skill from mom. Still overall a tragic situation. My heart goes out to this family.
I'm glad you brought this up because hearing this made me do a double take. It's fairly obvious this mum had her golden child and the scapegoat (Kim). Obviously you can't go around murdering people, but I'm not too surprised violence bred a violent outcome.
As a society, it would be beneficial if we looked at how and why we have such a desire to “punish” people. In the US anyway, rehabilitation for people who commit crimes - not just murder - isn’t even a thing. Objectively evil killers rotting away, yeah, I can see, but there’s so many things that happen in life that lead to crime happening, murder included, that blanket statements and punishments can’t really be applied. I totally agree with Kendall.
I am a mother of a victim, I wish him hell and back. Kendall I usually agree with you but this time I am with Josh. I used to work in a place that have to interact with felons very often, rehabilitation is a mirage in most cases. In reality if they are given the opportunity in similar circumstances they will do it again. What she is going to do the next time something gets in her way? In all seriousness evil do exist. One thing I will always ask myself is; how I will feel if this person was next to my children? Compassion have to be given with caution.
I absolutely agree. Especially in situations of serious crimes (ei. Murder) You don’t know the pain of having to see your loved ones killer walk around freely until you experience it all yourself
I wish we did an eye for an eye and not an eyelid after 5 lives and 30 years. Let me pull the switch, or trigger (whichever a family prefers because it should be up to them after a verdict, not up to a judge)!
I LOVE how Kendall included what happened to the dog as well, that just shows how thoughtful she is and how much she does her best to include any, every, and all details ❤
I love hearing Janelle speak from the psychological lens! It’s too common now to have people speak on things that they have not truly researched or studied, so hearing her speak so knowledgeably and be able to provide context to the case is so helpful and unique to this podcast. You guys are top tier when it comes to representing victims and speaking from a place of education and action. Much love ❤
I 1000% agree with Josh. The Vince Li case happened where I live and people have such different viewpoints on it. He lives a normal life and people DO run into him at the grocery store. I know the victim’s family is absolutely crushed by this fact and I think it’s absolutely pathetic the sentences that are given in Canada. We are NOT hard enough on people here for brutal, senseless crimes. I know of someone who was faced with her friend’s murderer when she went over to her grandparents house. They had (unknowingly) hired the company he works for, only a year after the murder took place. I can tell you, you would absolutely be UPSET by this. The families of victims absolutely need to be considered. That is JUSTICE. It’s completely despicable that these people live in our society alongside us after the horrible things they have done. My heart breaks for the families that have not only the reminder of what they have lost every day, but also have to coexist with the person responsible.
I spoke w my wife who unfortunately has both a murdered family member and a murderer for a family member and we 10000% agree w josh!! I loved the debate tho and can totally see where janelle and kendal we're coming from!
I agree with Kendall & Janelle! Should be determined case by case. I definitely believe Charlie Tan should be free. I do believe in rehabilitation, but if someone is showing zero remorse for such a disgusting crime they should not be released.
My dad was murdered & I was left with panic attacks, depression, and great emptiness, and the killer was roaming free, so I’m also with Josh on this one, no one has the right to take a life. And if you do the crime you have to do the time, in my case, my dads killers was actually killed a few months after, so either way he paid with his life. As for killers, if you can kill someone as close as your family, you need serious help, because if you can take the lives of the people that care for you, you clearly don’t care about anything and will 100% do it again to people you don’t even know
I agree with Josh . Putting myself in the victim family’s shoes, I don’t think people deserve 2nd chances with murder . It’s so easy to be looking at it from the outside and say they need rehabilitation and another chance but until it hits close home then you can’t really know what you’d want.
i’m with Josh. these people can’t be rehabilitated. that’s just fantasy most of the time. the innocent citizens and victims family deserves to continue their lives and feel safe.
I love Kendall. I have a lot of experience with the prison system and kids. I do think these two are in extreme case and lack emotion and empathy but in other cases in a lot of states in America, we have sold our children to the prison system, children that mostly come from bad homes that if somebody cared their lives would’ve been different.
Absolutely! And we don't fully understand the workings of the brain and how things can change with the right support e.g. love, education, optimal nutrition to support brain health etc. Some people act out and do horrific things due to poor nutrition causing use to become biological slaves to an unhealthy brain. I'm NOT saying that people shouldn't be Heald accountable, simply that many factors need to be addressed when such young people are involved since the brain is still developing and can be drastically changed.
You should talk about the case of "Wilma" from Sweden. A 17-year-old girl who disappeared. She was murdered by her boyfriend, and the police found her head in his closet in a suitcase, but the rest of the body is gone. It happened here in my hometown Uddevalla. It's worth talking about!
Wilma Andersson to clarify... such a heart breaking and devastating case. My heart goes out to her family what a damned monster her boyfriend was... they found her head in a suitcase in his closet. Absolutely brutal
I remember this case so well..just awful. The sentencing for violent crimes in the Uk is ridiculously poor, our prison overcrowding shouldnt be an excuse...we have one of the lowest rates of time served for murder in the world, which is shameful , and utterly disrespectful to victims. Regardless of their youth, they weren't children, they knew exactly what they were doing & their sentences should have reflected that,its shameful.
I was involved on a professional level with a similar case some years ago. The whole community was up in arms against the 14 year old girl and her boyfriend who was also 14 at the time. What wasn’t made public was her history of being removed by child protective services at least three times during her childhood. This doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Both were sentenced to 20 years. I was torn at the time about how fair this was. Not an easy choice.
Love love LOVE Kendall and Janelle both, but I 100000% agree with Josh on this one- some people and certain crimes cannot be rehabilitated from, no matter WHAT the age is
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood? I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
I’m with josh in this one. There are so many cases of where they let these violent people out on “good behavior” that re-offend and peoples lives could have been saved just by them doing the time they deserve. The way i see it is when I was in my teen years I couldn’t even imagine doing this crime let alone going through with it and having so many chances to stop what was happening and didn’t.
Yeah the problem is right now we aren't set up for rehabilitation...so anyone getting out right now isn't being rehabilitated. So until our jails are set for it, of course they reoffend. They didn't get any help yet.
I agree with Kendall. While victims' feelings should be taken into account, there's a reason the criminal justice system is meant to be handled by a neutral third party. Victims' families and their desires should be one important factor in sentencing, but not the only one. How likely is the person to reoffend? Was there trauma that caused them to snap? Are they an ongoing danger to society? Etc. All of these things should be taken into consideration as well. It's meant to be a justice system, not a revenge/vigilante system.
The issue with Josh's logic is the number of innocent people who are convicted of crimes they did not commit. Our criminal justice system is not perfect, and more mistakes than not are made daily.
True, I agree with most of what Josh said but I think it should only apply to crimes where it's been proven without any doubt that the person being convicted really did commit the crime.
I'm with Josh! I'm a Canadian, we have been fighting my brothers death and the Canadian justice system is a complete joke ! I miss my brother , he was my only sibling ! His death litteraly broke my entire family! And the law keeps breaking us more
I'm so sorry for you and your family. Losing a sibling to crime it's so much more horrible. And I know how the justice system here is broken and protect the criminal, not the victim. My thoughts is with you.
My thoughts are with you. I hope your brother and your family get the justice they deserve and that you may find some semblance of peace in the future and receive closure. I am so sorry for your loss ❤❤️
Thanks to each an one of yous for your kind loving words ! I am at a complete loss without him it's been a little over a yr an the pain never went away from the very night . I pray one day his killers pay the price and end up in jail for a long ass time ! And I'll be there to stand strong an tall for my brother fighting til that day comes !
Josh said it perfectly, you took someone else’s life you forfeit yours. As a child I knew right from wrong. I knew hitting someone was wrong. Murder is a whole other level of evil.
I agree with Josh 10,000%. “Rehabilitating” someone who already has that mindset and has such hate isn’t going to “fix” anything. It’s way past that. You did the unthinkable that the average person wouldn’t do. In my book, you’re done and need to be accountable for your own actions. Throw away the key!
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood? I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@Kelsey0652 Josh said specifically first degree, premeditated murder, with thought and planning. Snapping and killing someone who has been hurting you over and over since childhood would be more considered second degree, aka in the heat of passion. This discussion is supposed to be for people who take days, weeks, or months to plan a cold blooded murder and get away with it
Considering how much content y’all put out in almost a production company sense with how many channels and topics you go through, no one should be inconsiderate of the time and effort you put in. Always respect the amount of work y’all put in. Every channel and post has thought and factual content worth mentioning in a way that’s easy to digest. Keep doing you, it’s great!
You guys are seriously the best at debating topics both so respectful and both bring up such good points (and janelle too!) I was like “ya Josh is right” and then Kendal would say something and I’d be like “hmmmm ok now that is a very good point” (talking about rehabilitation) y’all genuinely want to learn from one another. I personally would love to see more of this on the podcast it was so entertaining as well as educational. Love you guys and all the shows/channels
I'm shocked so many people agree with Josh wholeheartedly. I'm with Kendall, I think it's more complicated than "an eye for an eye," so to speak. The judicial system has to balance the rights of the victims, obviously, those are given the most weight-but also, *the offenders too.* They're still citizens, they still have rights, they're still humans. If they've completed all the requirements for release... Some people are monsters who truly deserve to rot forever, but... kids? I don't know, that's much harder. It feels like it truly does have to be case-by-case, weighing the severity of the crime, any rehabilitation (or lack thereof) they've had, and the victims' feelings on the matter. There's no ONE right answer.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood? I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@foreverwild9298I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. They just want to say that it’s case by case, and there’s a lot of nuance in every single one of them.
I think I used to think i was full of forgiveness. But I was permanently damaged by a drunk driver last year and even tho my injuries could've been way worse than they are, it stillbothets me that the drunk driver was never caught (they ran off on foot). I don't know the right answer either, but it really bothers me that they are out, free, living life unbothered, whilst I am forever changed.
I agree with josh, a life for a life. I also think this couple should spend life in prison. The fact that they killed her mum and sister at such a young age is just as bad as an adult doing it, and honestly way more scary in my opinion. I don’t believe you can rehab someone for such a horrific act.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood? I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@Kelsey0652 That’s where It starts to get complicated….but at the end of the day no one has the right to take someone else’s life, regardless of the circumstances. Horrible and unfair things happen in life but you choose how you react.
@@AnnieMorris94Yeah but he said specifically that we're only speaking about first degree, planned cold blooded murder. Snapping and killing someone that has been sexually violating or physically abusing you, that would be second degree murder. That would be more along the lines of heat of passion defense. Josh said that he was not talking about anything other than calculated planned murder
@@strawbemojiYeah but he said specifically that we're only speaking about first degree, planned cold blooded murder. Snapping and killing someone that has been sexually violating or physically abusing you, that would be second degree murder. That would be more along the lines of heat of passion defense. Josh said that he was not talking about anything other than calculated planned murder
life imprisonment for minors is so complicated. it’s really a case by case basis. the book just mercy by bryan stevenson really gave me perspective on the matter.
I live in Medicine Hat, AB, Canada and we had a murder in 2006 where a 12 year old girl and her 23yr old boyfriend killed her parents and her little brother- she was sentenced to 10 years and spent 4 of them in psychiatric hospital. She was granted a name change when she got out and was provided with an education and has since been completely released into society- we don't hear much about her now, but according to her doctors and the courts she would be your "poster child" for what the goal of rehabilitation is meant to do in these sorts of cases.
I agree with Josh. Even with kids, yes, they aren’t developed, but it’s honestly even more disturbing to me at that point because if they are that rotten to the core at such a young age, that isn’t just going to get better. Jail is more likely to further corrupt than to rehabilitate. For the majority of cases, young or not, if it’s premeditated and you have taken a life, you have no right to be out in society
I really agree with Josh about the sentencing under 18. I don’t think it matters. I don’t care if your 14 with an undeveloped brain; if you cold blooded plan your mothers and sisters murder, feel no remorse and have the audacity to smirk at your sister…you don’t even deserve to live your life. Rehabilitation for murders, I believe don’t work. The only exception are self defence killings or for instance killing your abuser, but other than that…no. Lock them up and throw away the key, even if they’re minors. At 15 you may be stupid, immature and young but you are old enough to know murder isn’t okay.
What a horrific, thoughtless and brutal case. I just have to say, it’s so nice to see a couple having a discussion with opposite opinions, on such a heavy topic, in a healthy way. Agreeing to disagree and moving on. You can tell you two have a strong and healthy relationship and it’s so refreshing to see.
In Finland, there was a case of three teenage boys who bullied and abused their ”friend” to death. It is one of the most brutal cases that I have ever heard of, and there was mental, physical and sexual abuse involved. They enjoyed the murder and had texted about how they wanted to hurt the poor boy, none of them showed any remorse during or after the act. They were all sentenced but will only serve a couple of years, and one of them is already out living his life like nothing happened. I honestly think that some things can not be excused just because of young age. Some things are just too brutal to ever be forgiven.
I could see them being tried as adults but in a lot of cases I do believe minors that commit murders end up being remorseful and changing. It’s so hard with kids because a lot of them grew up in very unfit environments
1:10:33 something to think about is how these two killers asked another kid about the sentence of those teens that murdered his father and some did get a lighter sentence. So these two took that into account fully knowing the “possible” punishment options. That shows awareness of actions. It also, imo, shows that when someone else gets away with a shorter sentence it encourages others to possibly take the chance because they may get a lighter sentence. Whereas if our sentences were stiffer and harder then people might think twice about committing crimes.
I think Josh is very thoughtful here. I used to work with teenagers and I will say the way they perceive the world is a bit “skewed” for lack of a better term. There is impulsivity. There is puberty and hormones and unchecked emotions. Not to say those things aren’t valid or a real experience…I was a chaotic teenager. I understand. But working with them as an adult gave me a very different perspective on that time in my life. They are in a different place mentally, emotionally and developmentally. Great pod y’all!
Don't back down Josh..you are 100% right. Menendez brothers murdered their parents and then said they were abused. They planned it out and accused them after they were dead and couldn't defend themselves.. They were murderers and should never get out. These two kids should never get out. You murder someone...you lose your life and freedom... PERIOD
I lean toward Kendall’s opinion on the debate, but I gotta say I love to hear the open discussion and I respect josh and his opinion along with people who share that opinion. I’m glad you guys keep disagreements in the show, it’s real and it really makes me think!
Please look at Norway’s recidivism rates! I am realllly with Kendall on this one. Unpopular opinion apparently.. if someone kills their abuser (even if it is premeditated), they absolutely should NOT get life with no parole IMO. That’s a bit insane I think.. I think we have to take a lot of emotion out of this topic and base our opinion on what is best for society at large.
I agree. Norway is a great example! I studied the Canadian judicial system, visited federal establishments, worked with social workers who help people on parole and I have to say I'm also with Kendall.
@@NaturalhairwithTati for some murders, I totally agree that some people should get life with no parole, but Josh was saying that he thinks this should be the case for “ALL premeditated murders”
I pray that baby doggy is happy and living a free life somewhere full of love and treats. I pray the same for the rest of the family, I hope yall have the best lives yall can.
I dont think people who kill in brutal ways can be rehabilitated. I find it creepier in one sense that someone really young can do that. I definitely remember being impulsive and dramatically as a teen and lots of people have family issues. Most people would never even consider killing. I hate the thought of murderers being free and youd never know. I think if people take a life they shouldn't be free. Its different in manslaughter cases/self defence etc
I know this isn’t relevant to the case, I haven’t started it yet. But i just want to say how generous they are to their employees and making sure everyone is taken care of and has time to themselves and stuff. How people treat their employees shows a lot about their character. I’ve been watching Kendall for YEARS and the podcast since each came out. You can tell they are genuine and good people, that’s part of the reason they’ve kept me as a viewer. I love y’all! Thank you for being you!
I definitely agree that cases w/ child perps are a lot more complex. Not just because of their brains being underdeveloped, but also taking the trauma/ mental health concerns into account. I think it just makes it so much more complicated because kids, are basically little sponges of their environment, and when kids show such concerning behavior... it's tough determining how much is nurture, and how much is nature:/
I love the discussion, opinions shared, and respect during it all. One of the biggest reasons I watch this show. It’s very important to have these topics discussed. Rest in peace to Elizabeth and Katie. Such a sad, sad situation.
I agree with Josh on the whole rehabilitation thing. Total and complete rehabilitation of a serious criminal is rare. So many times we hear about someone being released for some heinous crime only to go and do it again or worse. If you plan to murder someone for fun or to make your life easier, then show no remorse, that kind of person cant be rehabiliated, they will forever be dangerous in my opinion.
I'm so glad you brought up Vince Lee. I'm from Canada and live not far from where the greyhound was stopped. The fact that HES ALLOWED to be out on the streets and HES ALLOWED to change his name so he can function in society without having to deal with what he did makes me furious. He should have never been allowed out
i agree with josh. i think the accountability for intentional violent crimes should be held to the highest standard of the law. i think victim impact statements should include victims family and that should HEAVILY be taken into account in sentencing, particularly with the use of paroling.
I love the dialogue between Josh and Kendall in this episode. It is a very philosophical question and the debate between the two was so civilized and calm.
It’s wild to even conceive of actually murdering someone as a child, let alone your parent. They’re right where they belong. Imagine what these people are capable of as adults. Scary.
I love this episode so much! The debate is something that should be discussed more. I honestly agree with Josh, the base of the topic is can they be rehabilitated if it was pre meditated and honestly I don’t think that’s possible. I understand having an abuser especially sexual abuse as me and many other women have been abused however I never killed my abuser. I think once you take a life knowingly and have had it planned out I don’t think you can bounce back from that.
Being older now with kids of my own, I realized my parents just wanted the best for me growing up as I do with my kids. I remember there were times I packed my bags and wanted to run away, but to hurt either of my parents never crossed my mind. In today's society, it's a lot more scary and harsh. Those I once knew have hit rock bottom, and some of them have kids, and they're just so carefree and in and out of jail, etc.. I'm grateful my parents cared enough to set boundaries for me and made sure I had morals and enough respect for ppl around me, especially myself.
I honestly just appreciate that you guys debated and discussed the topic of sentencing and rehabilitation. Its hard to talk about tough, emotional subjects and showing that people can have difficult conversations without name calling and hissy fits is super important. Kudos to you guys and/or kudos to your editors 😅😅😅 ❤
I fully stand with Josh regarding violent crimes and “rehabilitation”. As someone who had a family member brutally murdered- I completely understand and agree. He is a lucky mf that he offed himself after slaughtering my family member. Had he god forbid ever been released, someone in my family would have taken him out- 1000%. He deserves to rot in prison or hell- and I find peace that he is probably in the second place. And I can say with 1000% confidence that if I, or any family member, saw him out and about (had he hasn’t killed himself), we would be irate. If it were up to the victims family, we would confidently push the DP.
I think rehabilitation is honestly a case by case situation. With kids this young, they obviously had a lot of issues and mental health problems. Neither has perfect or even great childhoods. With years of therapy and possible medication (if needed) I can see these two possibly getting rehabilitated. It's hard bc I've never been in this situation with a family member. I can't say as a surviving victim if I'd feel differently. I think some people are born evil, some need help and don't get it, and others snap but aren't necessarily 'murderers'. It's so hard and I don't think there should be a blanket outcome for everyone. It needs to be case by case and I also think, especially with minors, the case and their mental health needs to be evaluated every 5-10 years to see how they're doing. Are they better? Bc Kristen (me) living with my mom was a very different Kristen living with my dad and I had a pretty great childhood and no abuse or CPS involvement etc. So even under great circumstances, as a minor living at home, you can have very different outcomes with life.
I totally agree with Josh. Another thing you have to think about is how Would you feel if the person moved next door to you. Would you feel comfortable? Even though they say they were rehabilitated. I know I wouldn't.
My best friends brother was murdered and she is facing the possibility of the "ran into the murderer" scenerio! I can tell you that she NEVER wants that to be a possibility and she says she knows how awful it will feel and how angry she will be to see him living his life while her brother is dead.
Agree with Josh! I believe that there would be less killings as well if murders that commit this crime know that the consequences are their life on the line.
Unfortunately we don’t fully develop our pre-frontal cortex fully until we are around 24, that’s the part of the brain that allows us to make rational thought. 😢 I can totally remember thinking “jeez when am I gonna be able to make my own decisions!” And now yes as a 39yr old adult I’m always thinking life is going way to fast!! You guys are amazing!
When I think about rehabilitation for prisoners involved in violent crimes, I think about how I would feel if it were a family member or friend of mine and I say I would never want them to see the light of day again.
Sorry Kendall and Janelle, but im totally with Josh on this. If someone deliberately takes a life, they lose theirs. Also its quite known that a lot of these people end up reoffending again. Lock them up and throw away the key. If they want they can choose freedom in the after life
What if you were kidnapped and held in a bunker and the only way to get it was killing the guy who held you captive? Do you think you deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison for that?
@lilythhansen6961 NO.. because that would be self defense. This case from what I remember was not a self defense case. For example.. if I just decided to kill my husband because I didn't want to be with him anymore - I'd deserve jail. Using a current situation, if one of the hostages being held in Gaza managed to kill one of the terrorists holding them captive so to free themselves - NO jail. SELF DEFENSE is an entirely different situation..
I really appreciate Janelle’s input related to psychology/mental illness/disorders/etc. People that commit murders are clearly suffering from some sort of mental illness, I don’t think anyone would argue that fact. So when she brings in her perspective from someone that has studied that field it seems to elevate the conversation, imo. Although stop saying “idk,” Janelle!! Haha. You didn’t work your butt off to obtain that Masters and get through that internship to end up saying “idk” after dropping correct information onto us lol. Love Kendall, Janelle, and all the girlies from all the shows! (Syd, Karelly, Julia!) Have a great day, team! 💜🙏
I appreciate that Josh takes a stand on something and gives his opinion. I know everyone else is probably worried about being cancelled so they don't give an opinion either way, but Josh creates a discussion with his views. We don't all have to agree, but it gives some content to talk about.
my uncle was murdered in november and i’m 110% with josh on this one. the killer only got 6 years and my family is angry everyday, i don’t understand how people in similar situations can forgive
Omg 6 yrs for murder??? that is criminal in itself. I am so sorry.I hope somehow your family can heal and find peace.
So so sorry to hear about your uncle. That’s horrific the killer only got 6 years… 💔
0% chance your uncle was murdered in November and the trial has already concluded, or even started. Why do you make things up?
My sister was murdered and the guy only got 3 years
@@katiegomness4827 omg I’m so sorry 😞
I admire how you two can have a debate with differing opinions but still remain respectful to each other
I’m with Josh. Would you allow a “rehabbed” murderer alone with your child? Once you cross the taboo of killing someone can you ever really be trusted?
Depends. I saw a case on this man named Clark who was S.A’d for years by his Boy Scout leader, afterwards he descended into dysfunction in his own life but he hadn’t hurt a fly. However after seeing the Boy Scout leader years later with another young boy knowing what he was probably doing he snapped and went with a friend to his house later that night and killed the guy. He says he regrets it and now speaks about his story all over the world. I don’t think he’s a bad man at all (from what I know) and I don’t think I’d mind him around my kids if he was someone I personally knew.
Nope..not a cold blooded intentional murder
Yeah I’m agree with Josh. I wouldn’t ever trust them with my kids no matter how much they’ve so called redeemed themselves. Just my opinion
What if it was in self defense?? I say I’d never kill someone but if someone I love is at risk of dying, I’ll absolutely kill to protect them.
@@OLALALA1019anyone who S.A any person especially a child doesn't deserve to breath we should use chomos for clinical trials instead of rats the rat deserves life more then the chomo
I LOVE Josh even more now!!! 100000% agree with him! I don’t think people realize that sociopathy is not something that can be cured. A personality is beginning to be solidified in the teen years and yes, there can be some changes with age, but a complete lack of remorse means something is missing in the person’s brain that can never be fixed.
100% agreed with Josh on his take of people being rehabilitated, young adults being charged as adults for brutal crimes like this, and families of victims being the ones having the final say on if person is released or not.
However, I agreed with Kendall on it being a case by case thing.
As a Brit one of the worst parts of this is that when they are released, they’ll more than likely be given new identities and won’t have to face the social ramifications of their actions at all.
yep...and let's not forget they have no conscience so who knows what they'll be capable of later..
That's F@$!#÷!
Wow
Yea that's BS. I don't know why criminals are protected so much.
Wow! I didn’t know that. So alarming to know people who have taken life away from family members get to have a fresh start again. Wow.
I’m with Josh. Let them rot. You take a life, you lose yours. Period.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood?
I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
Yes! The minute you commit this type of crime, you forfeit your own human rights 👏
I agree but do you think there should be an exception for parents that kill their child’s murderer, children who kill their abuser, etc?
@@Kelsey0652call the police run away to a neighbor a family member tell someone you thinking about killing your abuser idk lol but ppl barley get a pass bc someone has sa them . Even though I sympathize I rather run then kill .
@@Mariamaria-bb9mnsome people don’t have any of those options unfortunately.
I know this may be controversial, but I don't feel someone in a state of grief and seeking retribution should be in any position deciding the fate of someone else. A board of informed psychologists and legal experts should be making these kinds of decisions ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS.
At this stage, I think most of us have lost trust in so-called “experts”. They are just as prone to bias as the rest of us. Leave the judgment to ordinary people (in the form of a jury) and God.
@@ohwellwhateverr except that there’s no proof that God actually exists.
Ummmm, so you think people stop grieving? How long is the grief stage? *asking for someone who loss their father from an illness.
FAMILY CHOICE = Life/ the chair!!!
Most rational comment on this thread
I’m with Josh on this one. You do the crime, including rape, you should do a LONG time. Don’t care how old they are!!!!
As for proven killers, and child molesters, in my opinion, they should get the death penalty, if possible.
YES!!!
agreed, for some reason SA suspects tend to be given the most lenient sentences
I love that you broke out the DSM 5 Janelle! I love that you represented the community of mental health professionals and gave your perspective ❤️
This is such a tough topic and I love that you guys openly debated it and didn’t shy away from disagreeing on each others opinions. Say what you mean Josh! Your honesty is extremely comforting because this world can be brutal. Such a great episode!
Haha..except Josh will be sleeping on the couch tonight...jk
I actually love that they can have such different opinions while still respected the others opinion!
I agree! They could have cut this out and they left it! TY for the transparency!!
I so agree, they were children. Parents must take some accountability.
Where the heck were they
@@michelleshephard9690 I guess the parents were busy being murdered...
i’m diagnosed with borderline personality disorder- it doesn’t always come from severe childhood trauma. my psychiatrist explained to me a lot of the time it can be developed when you have a parent/parents who don’t know how to regulate their own emotions and therefore can’t teach their child the right tools/ become neglectful to the child’s emotions/feelings.
Same for me! My parents were dismissive of my emotions and I never saw my mom cry until I was 21 at my dad’s funeral. So it can def come from neglect and a lack of emotional regulation from the parental figures.
But that is childhood trauma if your parent isn't able to even regulate their own emotions around you. Having to deal with caregivers that cont handle their own stuff then a child is around that and not taught how to do it themselves. That def a form of neglect/abuse, emotional and psychological. That kind of abuse has developed murderers because they weren't able to learn appropriate regulation of emotions.
I agree with Josh on this one.. I feel like if you premeditate brutal murder no matter what your age is you forfeit your freedom. You took the time to plan that and it’s your time to do the time for your actions.
Me too. They were old enough to know what they were doing.
Idk what about gypsy rose
@@jessies_doodles_9876she was a victim tho
I’d love to get a little more screen time for Janelle talking about psychology!!! it’s so interesting- I know she’s busy but maybe a small series focusing on the psychology of these killers would be SO interesting.
YESSSS
There's tons of channels out there with board certified forensic psychologists breaking down these cases. Theyre amazing videos, just gotta search for em
I agree with Josh... Perfectly said, "You took somebodies life, you forfeit yours."
Gypsy Rose case?
@zooeyzanger3318 she planned it out and had her boyfriend do it..
Yes gypsy rose shouldn't get out
I, unfortunately, live in Springfield and am familiar with the gypsy rose case..
She tricked that poor kid into murdering her mother.
@@foreverwild9298do you know how abusive her mother was to her? go through what she went through and lmk
The no remorse thing males me no trust them.
What about in war? Thays the first thing that came to mind. Soldiers kill innocents with no remorse often
I agree with Josh. I don't think that murderers should ever be let loose in society.
I love how passionate Josh is and how considered Kendall and Janelle are when they explore topics like this. A terrible case, but a really great discussion this week guys.
Definitely a very intense and complex topic. We appreciate you watching!
I totally agree with this comment such a good debate probably one of the best ones❤❤❤ each of them gave so many good points 👌
I love how perfectly Kendall and Josh balance each other out. They do such a good job of stating their own opinions and listening to each other even if they don’t agree. By far my favorite podcast.
Gotta agree with josh here. SA and murder can’t be redeemed or rehabilitated.
Same! I agree with Josh all the way.
Same he did not get his point across very well, but after clarification and not generalizing he is right. You can not rehabilitate everyone!
Along with animal cruelty. Josh is right
I would have to agree with one exception; self defence
SA should be treated equally to murder💯 Yet in America it's viewed as "oh well-happens to all women" Males could never understand-it legit happens to all women. If not actual SA, every single woman has at least been harassed or made uncomfortable by a male.
My dad's stepdad was brutally murdered by 4 teens because he wouldn't give them a cigarette. All 4 of those teens have been released from prison and are living their lives, and I don't think it's right. It burns my dad up inside because they took away the only positive father figure in his life because he wouldn't give them a cigarette. My dad even said at the sentence hearing that they should all receive the maximum sentence, and it was completely disregarded because "they were young" and "made a mistake"... I'm with Josh on this one
I agree with Josh on this one. If you commit a horrible crime like this and show no remorse you don’t deserve to be released to live your life, and honestly, I think she is worse than him. He wouldn’t of killed her family if she hadn’t pulled the strings. So if anything he is more likely to be rehabed than her. They may not have been “adults” but at their age they know right from wrong. So they shouldn’t get a “pass” because they weren’t technically adults.
I totally agree with Josh. I can’t fathom someone taking another persons life and then eventually getting to freely live their life at any point.
I liked the debate you guys had in this episode, very thought-provoking. Ultimately I agree with Josh's side, premeditated first-degree murder and brutal attacks against the defenseless should be life in prison or death.
Both of my parents work in the prison system, some people should never get out. There are not enough resources in the USA to properly rehabilitate the number of these kinds of criminals that we have. In other less serious cases, I think rehab is possible. Some people are just too broken and too harmful.
I love to hear y'all's discussions, I look forward to every podcast Kendall, Josh, and the team put together, and I listen to each new episode the day it comes out while I work. Keep up the great work.
Team Kendall all the way. Should be case by case.
Kim was being punched in the face at 6 years old by mom and her dad was absent. This is detrimental to a child’s psychological development. We can act surprised by this behavior but she learned violence as a coping skill from mom.
Still overall a tragic situation. My heart goes out to this family.
Right. And I do not believe for 2 seconds that she punched a 6 year old in the face over tv and that it never happened again.
I'm glad you brought this up because hearing this made me do a double take. It's fairly obvious this mum had her golden child and the scapegoat (Kim). Obviously you can't go around murdering people, but I'm not too surprised violence bred a violent outcome.
My dad was murdered by his brother and he got away with it so I side with Josh on this one and my heart goes out to Mary
That’s awful. I’m sorry about the loss of your father. 🖤
What happened if that's okay If I ask
@@queens552 my uncle shot my dad 12 times and claimed self defense and got away with it
As a society, it would be beneficial if we looked at how and why we have such a desire to “punish” people. In the US anyway, rehabilitation for people who commit crimes - not just murder - isn’t even a thing. Objectively evil killers rotting away, yeah, I can see, but there’s so many things that happen in life that lead to crime happening, murder included, that blanket statements and punishments can’t really be applied. I totally agree with Kendall.
I am a mother of a victim, I wish him hell and back. Kendall I usually agree with you but this time I am with Josh. I used to work in a place that have to interact with felons very often, rehabilitation is a mirage in most cases. In reality if they are given the opportunity in similar circumstances they will do it again. What she is going to do the next time something gets in her way? In all seriousness evil do exist. One thing I will always ask myself is; how I will feel if this person was next to my children? Compassion have to be given with caution.
I absolutely agree. Especially in situations of serious crimes (ei. Murder) You don’t know the pain of having to see your loved ones killer walk around freely until you experience it all yourself
I wish we did an eye for an eye and not an eyelid after 5 lives and 30 years. Let me pull the switch, or trigger (whichever a family prefers because it should be up to them after a verdict, not up to a judge)!
@@beckyjbarkerAmen!
I would be interested to see why in some countries they genuinely are able to rehabilitate people though.
America doesn't rehabilitate. So how is it a mirage when we don't even do it? You can't claim it doesn't work when we don't even have it implemented.
I LOVE how Kendall included what happened to the dog as well, that just shows how thoughtful she is and how much she does her best to include any, every, and all details ❤
I love hearing Janelle speak from the psychological lens! It’s too common now to have people speak on things that they have not truly researched or studied, so hearing her speak so knowledgeably and be able to provide context to the case is so helpful and unique to this podcast. You guys are top tier when it comes to representing victims and speaking from a place of education and action. Much love ❤
Thank you so much!
Me too!
I 1000% agree with Josh. The Vince Li case happened where I live and people have such different viewpoints on it. He lives a normal life and people DO run into him at the grocery store. I know the victim’s family is absolutely crushed by this fact and I think it’s absolutely pathetic the sentences that are given in Canada. We are NOT hard enough on people here for brutal, senseless crimes.
I know of someone who was faced with her friend’s murderer when she went over to her grandparents house. They had (unknowingly) hired the company he works for, only a year after the murder took place. I can tell you, you would absolutely be UPSET by this. The families of victims absolutely need to be considered. That is JUSTICE. It’s completely despicable that these people live in our society alongside us after the horrible things they have done.
My heart breaks for the families that have not only the reminder of what they have lost every day, but also have to coexist with the person responsible.
Was Vince li the bus case?
Yes!@@anastasiahudson2919
I spoke w my wife who unfortunately has both a murdered family member and a murderer for a family member and we 10000% agree w josh!! I loved the debate tho and can totally see where janelle and kendal we're coming from!
I agree with Kendall & Janelle! Should be determined case by case. I definitely believe Charlie Tan should be free. I do believe in rehabilitation, but if someone is showing zero remorse for such a disgusting crime they should not be released.
My dad was murdered & I was left with panic attacks, depression, and great emptiness, and the killer was roaming free, so I’m also with Josh on this one, no one has the right to take a life. And if you do the crime you have to do the time, in my case, my dads killers was actually killed a few months after, so either way he paid with his life. As for killers, if you can kill someone as close as your family, you need serious help, because if you can take the lives of the people that care for you, you clearly don’t care about anything and will 100% do it again to people you don’t even know
I’m so sorry . I agree with you
I agree with Josh . Putting myself in the victim family’s shoes, I don’t think people deserve 2nd chances with murder . It’s so easy to be looking at it from the outside and say they need rehabilitation and another chance but until it hits close home then you can’t really know what you’d want.
i’m with Josh. these people can’t be rehabilitated. that’s just fantasy most of the time. the innocent citizens and victims family deserves to continue their lives and feel safe.
I love Kendall. I have a lot of experience with the prison system and kids. I do think these two are in extreme case and lack emotion and empathy but in other cases in a lot of states in America, we have sold our children to the prison system, children that mostly come from bad homes that if somebody cared their lives would’ve been different.
Absolutely! And we don't fully understand the workings of the brain and how things can change with the right support e.g. love, education, optimal nutrition to support brain health etc. Some people act out and do horrific things due to poor nutrition causing use to become biological slaves to an unhealthy brain. I'm NOT saying that people shouldn't be Heald accountable, simply that many factors need to be addressed when such young people are involved since the brain is still developing and can be drastically changed.
@@LumiSisuSusiyes!!! I agree with you!! Well stated.
America really doesn't do rehabilitation or a successful prison system well
You should talk about the case of "Wilma" from Sweden. A 17-year-old girl who disappeared. She was murdered by her boyfriend, and the police found her head in his closet in a suitcase, but the rest of the body is gone. It happened here in my hometown Uddevalla. It's worth talking about!
What the actual hell, omg I hope they talk about this. My heart goes out to her family ♥️
Yes I remember this I’m also from sweden and I remember the search for her and everything it was so horrible
Why do you sound excited about that.
Wilma Andersson to clarify... such a heart breaking and devastating case. My heart goes out to her family what a damned monster her boyfriend was... they found her head in a suitcase in his closet. Absolutely brutal
@@WhoKnowsCAshe doesn't?
I remember this case so well..just awful. The sentencing for violent crimes in the Uk is ridiculously poor, our prison overcrowding shouldnt be an excuse...we have one of the lowest rates of time served for murder in the world, which is shameful , and utterly disrespectful to victims. Regardless of their youth, they weren't children, they knew exactly what they were doing & their sentences should have reflected that,its shameful.
The victims families should have a say at any parole hearings. Their opinions should be counted towards the ultimate decision.
I agree. In some cases when they can have a character witness for parole it should be the same with a victim witness
I love that Josh and Kendall can disagree and not have a fight over it
Also with Josh 100% on this one. I don't care if its a minor. Taking a life, in cold blood, is unforgivable. Life without parole.
I was involved on a professional level with a similar case some years ago. The whole community was up in arms against the 14 year old girl and her boyfriend who was also 14 at the time. What wasn’t made public was her history of being removed by child protective services at least three times during her childhood. This doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Both were sentenced to 20 years. I was torn at the time about how fair this was. Not an easy choice.
Love love LOVE Kendall and Janelle both, but I 100000% agree with Josh on this one- some people and certain crimes cannot be rehabilitated from, no matter WHAT the age is
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood?
I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@Kelsey0652that is a different situation obviously those would be excluded at least in my opinion
@@Kelsey0652that’s not the type of situation they meant and you know it
@Kelsey0652 they did say "and certain crimes" this would be one of those crimes, I'd say! 👌
I completely agree with Josh. I don’t understand how that is hard for the girls to understand that.
I’m with josh in this one. There are so many cases of where they let these violent people out on “good behavior” that re-offend and peoples lives could have been saved just by them doing the time they deserve. The way i see it is when I was in my teen years I couldn’t even imagine doing this crime let alone going through with it and having so many chances to stop what was happening and didn’t.
Yeah the problem is right now we aren't set up for rehabilitation...so anyone getting out right now isn't being rehabilitated. So until our jails are set for it, of course they reoffend. They didn't get any help yet.
Agree with Josh. There is no rehabilitating this level of evil and darkness. This isn’t a simple theft or running away… this is beyond the pale.
I personally think it was more depersonalization after trauma than sociopathy/psychopathy.
I agree with Kendall. While victims' feelings should be taken into account, there's a reason the criminal justice system is meant to be handled by a neutral third party. Victims' families and their desires should be one important factor in sentencing, but not the only one. How likely is the person to reoffend? Was there trauma that caused them to snap? Are they an ongoing danger to society? Etc. All of these things should be taken into consideration as well. It's meant to be a justice system, not a revenge/vigilante system.
It's such a hard matter when minors are involved that may not understand or have critical thinking skills and a under development frontal lobe.
I agree, and this is the most educated answer!
The issue with Josh's logic is the number of innocent people who are convicted of crimes they did not commit. Our criminal justice system is not perfect, and more mistakes than not are made daily.
Great point !
True, I agree with most of what Josh said but I think it should only apply to crimes where it's been proven without any doubt that the person being convicted really did commit the crime.
I'm with Josh! I'm a Canadian, we have been fighting my brothers death and the Canadian justice system is a complete joke ! I miss my brother , he was my only sibling ! His death litteraly broke my entire family! And the law keeps breaking us more
I'm so sorry for you and your family. Losing a sibling to crime it's so much more horrible. And I know how the justice system here is broken and protect the criminal, not the victim. My thoughts is with you.
My thoughts are with you. I hope your brother and your family get the justice they deserve and that you may find some semblance of peace in the future and receive closure. I am so sorry for your loss ❤❤️
I can only imagine the pain you are going through. Sending love ❤️
I'm sorry for your loss :(
Thanks to each an one of yous for your kind loving words ! I am at a complete loss without him it's been a little over a yr an the pain never went away from the very night . I pray one day his killers pay the price and end up in jail for a long ass time ! And I'll be there to stand strong an tall for my brother fighting til that day comes !
Josh said it perfectly, you took someone else’s life you forfeit yours. As a child I knew right from wrong. I knew hitting someone was wrong. Murder is a whole other level of evil.
I agree with Josh 10,000%. “Rehabilitating” someone who already has that mindset and has such hate isn’t going to “fix” anything. It’s way past that. You did the unthinkable that the average person wouldn’t do. In my book, you’re done and need to be accountable for your own actions. Throw away the key!
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood?
I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@Kelsey0652 Josh said specifically first degree, premeditated murder, with thought and planning. Snapping and killing someone who has been hurting you over and over since childhood would be more considered second degree, aka in the heat of passion. This discussion is supposed to be for people who take days, weeks, or months to plan a cold blooded murder and get away with it
Considering how much content y’all put out in almost a production company sense with how many channels and topics you go through, no one should be inconsiderate of the time and effort you put in. Always respect the amount of work y’all put in. Every channel and post has thought and factual content worth mentioning in a way that’s easy to digest. Keep doing you, it’s great!
You guys are seriously the best at debating topics both so respectful and both bring up such good points (and janelle too!) I was like “ya Josh is right” and then Kendal would say something and I’d be like “hmmmm ok now that is a very good point” (talking about rehabilitation) y’all genuinely want to learn from one another. I personally would love to see more of this on the podcast it was so entertaining as well as educational. Love you guys and all the shows/channels
I'm shocked so many people agree with Josh wholeheartedly. I'm with Kendall, I think it's more complicated than "an eye for an eye," so to speak. The judicial system has to balance the rights of the victims, obviously, those are given the most weight-but also, *the offenders too.* They're still citizens, they still have rights, they're still humans. If they've completed all the requirements for release... Some people are monsters who truly deserve to rot forever, but... kids? I don't know, that's much harder. It feels like it truly does have to be case-by-case, weighing the severity of the crime, any rehabilitation (or lack thereof) they've had, and the victims' feelings on the matter. There's no ONE right answer.
Dork
I agree with Josh..murderers should never get out.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood?
I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@Kelsey0652 so you believe it's ok to take the law into your own hands?
Vigilante?
No, that's why we have courts.
@@foreverwild9298I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. They just want to say that it’s case by case, and there’s a lot of nuance in every single one of them.
@Sophiem6m
Murder is murder..
Unless it's accidental or in self defense..it's murder
@@Kelsey0652that’s not murder it’s self defense
I think I used to think i was full of forgiveness. But I was permanently damaged by a drunk driver last year and even tho my injuries could've been way worse than they are, it stillbothets me that the drunk driver was never caught (they ran off on foot). I don't know the right answer either, but it really bothers me that they are out, free, living life unbothered, whilst I am forever changed.
I'm so sorry you had to go though that, your pain is valid even if it could've been worse❤ sending love❤
I agree with josh, a life for a life. I also think this couple should spend life in prison. The fact that they killed her mum and sister at such a young age is just as bad as an adult doing it, and honestly way more scary in my opinion. I don’t believe you can rehab someone for such a horrific act.
But what if someone kills their parent who SA since childhood?
I agree with you but I believe it should be case by case for the reason above. I think if a abuser gets killed they had what was coming to them.
@@Kelsey0652 That’s where It starts to get complicated….but at the end of the day no one has the right to take someone else’s life, regardless of the circumstances. Horrible and unfair things happen in life but you choose how you react.
@@Kelsey0652 Exactly! The "eye for an eye" mentality solves nothing.
@@AnnieMorris94Yeah but he said specifically that we're only speaking about first degree, planned cold blooded murder. Snapping and killing someone that has been sexually violating or physically abusing you, that would be second degree murder. That would be more along the lines of heat of passion defense. Josh said that he was not talking about anything other than calculated planned murder
@@strawbemojiYeah but he said specifically that we're only speaking about first degree, planned cold blooded murder. Snapping and killing someone that has been sexually violating or physically abusing you, that would be second degree murder. That would be more along the lines of heat of passion defense. Josh said that he was not talking about anything other than calculated planned murder
life imprisonment for minors is so complicated. it’s really a case by case basis. the book just mercy by bryan stevenson really gave me perspective on the matter.
Janelle just whipping out the DSM V was absolutely hilarious.
Had to dust her off!
I live in Medicine Hat, AB, Canada and we had a murder in 2006 where a 12 year old girl and her 23yr old boyfriend killed her parents and her little brother- she was sentenced to 10 years and spent 4 of them in psychiatric hospital. She was granted a name change when she got out and was provided with an education and has since been completely released into society- we don't hear much about her now, but according to her doctors and the courts she would be your "poster child" for what the goal of rehabilitation is meant to do in these sorts of cases.
SA survivor here. Thank you Josh, throw away the keys. Let them rot.
Same and ditto
I agree with Josh. Even with kids, yes, they aren’t developed, but it’s honestly even more disturbing to me at that point because if they are that rotten to the core at such a young age, that isn’t just going to get better. Jail is more likely to further corrupt than to rehabilitate. For the majority of cases, young or not, if it’s premeditated and you have taken a life, you have no right to be out in society
I really agree with Josh about the sentencing under 18. I don’t think it matters. I don’t care if your 14 with an undeveloped brain; if you cold blooded plan your mothers and sisters murder, feel no remorse and have the audacity to smirk at your sister…you don’t even deserve to live your life. Rehabilitation for murders, I believe don’t work. The only exception are self defence killings or for instance killing your abuser, but other than that…no. Lock them up and throw away the key, even if they’re minors. At 15 you may be stupid, immature and young but you are old enough to know murder isn’t okay.
What a horrific, thoughtless and brutal case. I just have to say, it’s so nice to see a couple having a discussion with opposite opinions, on such a heavy topic, in a healthy way. Agreeing to disagree and moving on. You can tell you two have a strong and healthy relationship and it’s so refreshing to see.
In Finland, there was a case of three teenage boys who bullied and abused their ”friend” to death. It is one of the most brutal cases that I have ever heard of, and there was mental, physical and sexual abuse involved. They enjoyed the murder and had texted about how they wanted to hurt the poor boy, none of them showed any remorse during or after the act. They were all sentenced but will only serve a couple of years, and one of them is already out living his life like nothing happened.
I honestly think that some things can not be excused just because of young age. Some things are just too brutal to ever be forgiven.
Good God that is absolutely horrifying 😢
yeah, but in finland you will get as and adult not that much for a murder either. And for rape it is 2-5 years tops usually.
@@mrsmerily Yeah all nordic countries have pretty short sentences.
Unfortunately the same in the Netherlands
I could see them being tried as adults but in a lot of cases I do believe minors that commit murders end up being remorseful and changing. It’s so hard with kids because a lot of them grew up in very unfit environments
1:10:33 something to think about is how these two killers asked another kid about the sentence of those teens that murdered his father and some did get a lighter sentence. So these two took that into account fully knowing the “possible” punishment options. That shows awareness of actions. It also, imo, shows that when someone else gets away with a shorter sentence it encourages others to possibly take the chance because they may get a lighter sentence. Whereas if our sentences were stiffer and harder then people might think twice about committing crimes.
This...
I think Josh is very thoughtful here. I used to work with teenagers and I will say the way they perceive the world is a bit “skewed” for lack of a better term. There is impulsivity. There is puberty and hormones and unchecked emotions. Not to say those things aren’t valid or a real experience…I was a chaotic teenager. I understand. But working with them as an adult gave me a very different perspective on that time in my life. They are in a different place mentally, emotionally and developmentally. Great pod y’all!
Don't back down Josh..you are 100% right.
Menendez brothers murdered their parents and then said they were abused.
They planned it out and accused them after they were dead and couldn't defend themselves..
They were murderers and should never get out.
These two kids should never get out.
You murder someone...you lose your life and freedom...
PERIOD
How can Kendall disagree with Josh???
She obviously has never been affected by murder
@@foreverwild9298because there's always going to be a case that's the exception to the rule
@zooeyzanger3318 doubtful. If it's planned out, there is no exception. If it's self defense..your life or theirs..then that's possibly an exception
I lean toward Kendall’s opinion on the debate, but I gotta say I love to hear the open discussion and I respect josh and his opinion along with people who share that opinion. I’m glad you guys keep disagreements in the show, it’s real and it really makes me think!
Please look at Norway’s recidivism rates! I am realllly with Kendall on this one. Unpopular opinion apparently.. if someone kills their abuser (even if it is premeditated), they absolutely should NOT get life with no parole IMO. That’s a bit insane I think.. I think we have to take a lot of emotion out of this topic and base our opinion on what is best for society at large.
I agree. Norway is a great example! I studied the Canadian judicial system, visited federal establishments, worked with social workers who help people on parole and I have to say I'm also with Kendall.
Completely agree! Was shocked more people weren’t saying it. People who kill their abusers are victims.
But Josh was speaking on people who commit horrendous murders, not so much this type of scenario
@@NaturalhairwithTati for some murders, I totally agree that some people should get life with no parole, but Josh was saying that he thinks this should be the case for “ALL premeditated murders”
Absolutely agree!
I pray that baby doggy is happy and living a free life somewhere full of love and treats. I pray the same for the rest of the family, I hope yall have the best lives yall can.
I dont think people who kill in brutal ways can be rehabilitated. I find it creepier in one sense that someone really young can do that. I definitely remember being impulsive and dramatically as a teen and lots of people have family issues. Most people would never even consider killing. I hate the thought of murderers being free and youd never know. I think if people take a life they shouldn't be free. Its different in manslaughter cases/self defence etc
I know this isn’t relevant to the case,
I haven’t started it yet. But i just want to say how generous they are to their employees and making sure everyone is taken care of and has time to themselves and stuff. How people treat their employees shows a lot about their character. I’ve been watching Kendall for YEARS and the podcast since each came out. You can tell they are genuine and good people, that’s part of the reason they’ve kept me as a viewer. I love y’all! Thank you for being you!
I definitely agree that cases w/ child perps are a lot more complex. Not just because of their brains being underdeveloped, but also taking the trauma/ mental health concerns into account. I think it just makes it so much more complicated because kids, are basically little sponges of their environment, and when kids show such concerning behavior... it's tough determining how much is nurture, and how much is nature:/
I love the discussion, opinions shared, and respect during it all. One of the biggest reasons I watch this show. It’s very important to have these topics discussed. Rest in peace to Elizabeth and Katie. Such a sad, sad situation.
I agree with Josh on the whole rehabilitation thing. Total and complete rehabilitation of a serious criminal is rare. So many times we hear about someone being released for some heinous crime only to go and do it again or worse. If you plan to murder someone for fun or to make your life easier, then show no remorse, that kind of person cant be rehabiliated, they will forever be dangerous in my opinion.
I'm so glad you brought up Vince Lee. I'm from Canada and live not far from where the greyhound was stopped. The fact that HES ALLOWED to be out on the streets and HES ALLOWED to change his name so he can function in society without having to deal with what he did makes me furious. He should have never been allowed out
i agree with josh. i think the accountability for intentional violent crimes should be held to the highest standard of the law. i think victim impact statements should include victims family and that should HEAVILY be taken into account in sentencing, particularly with the use of paroling.
does anyone else find the mothers behavior concerning? this whole situation is devastating.
Yes
I love the dialogue between Josh and Kendall in this episode. It is a very philosophical question and the debate between the two was so civilized and calm.
It’s wild to even conceive of actually murdering someone as a child, let alone your parent. They’re right where they belong. Imagine what these people are capable of as adults. Scary.
I agree with Josh… these two knew exactly what they were doing.
I love this episode so much! The debate is something that should be discussed more. I honestly agree with Josh, the base of the topic is can they be rehabilitated if it was pre meditated and honestly I don’t think that’s possible. I understand having an abuser especially sexual abuse as me and many other women have been abused however I never killed my abuser. I think once you take a life knowingly and have had it planned out I don’t think you can bounce back from that.
Being older now with kids of my own, I realized my parents just wanted the best for me growing up as I do with my kids. I remember there were times I packed my bags and wanted to run away, but to hurt either of my parents never crossed my mind. In today's society, it's a lot more scary and harsh. Those I once knew have hit rock bottom, and some of them have kids, and they're just so carefree and in and out of jail, etc.. I'm grateful my parents cared enough to set boundaries for me and made sure I had morals and enough respect for ppl around me, especially myself.
Same, my strict parents were the protection from this crazy world I’m so grateful
Yes 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
I honestly just appreciate that you guys debated and discussed the topic of sentencing and rehabilitation. Its hard to talk about tough, emotional subjects and showing that people can have difficult conversations without name calling and hissy fits is super important.
Kudos to you guys and/or kudos to your editors 😅😅😅 ❤
I fully stand with Josh regarding violent crimes and “rehabilitation”. As someone who had a family member brutally murdered- I completely understand and agree. He is a lucky mf that he offed himself after slaughtering my family member. Had he god forbid ever been released, someone in my family would have taken him out- 1000%. He deserves to rot in prison or hell- and I find peace that he is probably in the second place.
And I can say with 1000% confidence that if I, or any family member, saw him out and about (had he hasn’t killed himself), we would be irate. If it were up to the victims family, we would confidently push the DP.
I think rehabilitation is honestly a case by case situation. With kids this young, they obviously had a lot of issues and mental health problems. Neither has perfect or even great childhoods. With years of therapy and possible medication (if needed) I can see these two possibly getting rehabilitated. It's hard bc I've never been in this situation with a family member. I can't say as a surviving victim if I'd feel differently. I think some people are born evil, some need help and don't get it, and others snap but aren't necessarily 'murderers'. It's so hard and I don't think there should be a blanket outcome for everyone. It needs to be case by case and I also think, especially with minors, the case and their mental health needs to be evaluated every 5-10 years to see how they're doing. Are they better? Bc Kristen (me) living with my mom was a very different Kristen living with my dad and I had a pretty great childhood and no abuse or CPS involvement etc. So even under great circumstances, as a minor living at home, you can have very different outcomes with life.
I totally agree with Josh. Another thing you have to think about is how Would you feel if the person moved next door to you. Would you feel comfortable? Even though they say they were rehabilitated. I know I wouldn't.
My best friends brother was murdered and she is facing the possibility of the "ran into the murderer" scenerio! I can tell you that she NEVER wants that to be a possibility and she says she knows how awful it will feel and how angry she will be to see him living his life while her brother is dead.
Agree with Josh! I believe that there would be less killings as well if murders that commit this crime know that the consequences are their life on the line.
Unfortunately we don’t fully develop our pre-frontal cortex fully until we are around 24, that’s the part of the brain that allows us to make rational thought. 😢 I can totally remember thinking “jeez when am I gonna be able to make my own decisions!” And now yes as a 39yr old adult I’m always thinking life is going way to fast!! You guys are amazing!
When I think about rehabilitation for prisoners involved in violent crimes, I think about how I would feel if it were a family member or friend of mine and I say I would never want them to see the light of day again.
I loved janelles input on the psychology part… It was very interesting to hear that aspect of the case
Sorry Kendall and Janelle, but im totally with Josh on this. If someone deliberately takes a life, they lose theirs. Also its quite known that a lot of these people end up reoffending again. Lock them up and throw away the key. If they want they can choose freedom in the after life
What if you were kidnapped and held in a bunker and the only way to get it was killing the guy who held you captive? Do you think you deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison for that?
@lilythhansen6961 NO.. because that would be self defense. This case from what I remember was not a self defense case. For example.. if I just decided to kill my husband because I didn't want to be with him anymore - I'd deserve jail. Using a current situation, if one of the hostages being held in Gaza managed to kill one of the terrorists holding them captive so to free themselves - NO jail. SELF DEFENSE is an entirely different situation..
I really appreciate Janelle’s input related to psychology/mental illness/disorders/etc. People that commit murders are clearly suffering from some sort of mental illness, I don’t think anyone would argue that fact. So when she brings in her perspective from someone that has studied that field it seems to elevate the conversation, imo. Although stop saying “idk,” Janelle!! Haha. You didn’t work your butt off to obtain that Masters and get through that internship to end up saying “idk” after dropping correct information onto us lol. Love Kendall, Janelle, and all the girlies from all the shows! (Syd, Karelly, Julia!) Have a great day, team! 💜🙏
I WAS NOT EXPECTING HER TO PULL OUT THE DSM 5 😭
When they were talking about her behavior I was like man I wonder if this would fit many criteria in the DSM5
I love you guys so much, and the way Kendall built up to this announcement I was terrified. As long as you still put out a show idc what day it is tbh
I appreciate that Josh takes a stand on something and gives his opinion. I know everyone else is probably worried about being cancelled so they don't give an opinion either way, but Josh creates a discussion with his views. We don't all have to agree, but it gives some content to talk about.
I just need to say.. how in the hell isn't this channel at 1 million yet?! subscribe to them people! they deserve it so so much! ❤