Really appreciate you being aware of your ability to drive impulse purchasing. There’s nothing wrong with gamers being excited, taking in that sweet dopamine hit, and buying a game. But sometimes people do it not realizing (or just thinking clearly enough to be aware that) the game is not actually for them or won’t actually get played. I think reviewers should actually spend more time to be very clear who they think would or would not enjoy a game. For me, I thought Gloomhaven was really fun and I respect the hell out of it, but I also know I only played 2-3 scenarios and will never actually see Frosthaven hit the table. So the bit at the end saved me from getting too hyped up. The game isn’t for me, and thats okay.
The Boneshaper loses 2 health when summoning a skeleton? Just like Cultists! I love how vibrant the abilities and world feel to me simply because of the names and actions on the cards.
My 2 favorite improvements on the combat side are the unique standees for character summons, and the scenario only revealing the first room, until you open a door then it tells you which page to turn to in order to see what comes next.
@@MadassSoerensen it is one of the reasons I find very annoying, Also having to create an entire different loot deck for EACH scenario, and then each Scenerio having a huge section of special rules?? You have to be taking 3 tables of copium everyday to say that this game is "better than Gloomhaven in every way"
Super fun "not review discussion thing". This is definitely a game I wish I could get into, but it kind of ties into that massive amount of content; I never managed to finish gloomhaven. It's a super fun game, but my friends and I can only meet up a bit less than once a week-and we want to play more than one game for the rest of our lives. I mean hell, it took us like six to eight months to finish pandemic legacy, which only has 12-24 scenarios instead of like...150.
This was a fantastic video that happened to not be a review while still being approximately as informative as one. I love how much focus there was on the aspects that are more new compared to what gloomhaven offers( how unlocks work , the narrative and the outpost as a whole)
Look, I usually agree with you guys and feel like your critiques are well thought out. But I just can't endorse your radical negative opinions on Tony Chocolonely.
Seriously, though, I mainly like their milk chocolate. Oh, and their dedication to ending slave labor that is all too often how chocolate is made. But they do have too many "salted" varieties in my opinion. I was over the whole putting extra salt on/in chocolate about a decade ago.
Thank you for this. The issue I had with gloomhaven is as fun as it is, it felt repetitive. Awesome mechanics but I couldn’t get sucked into it’s World, which made it more of a problem solving experience rather than an immersive one which I cared about the characters or the story.
This is always a problem with original IP's. No pre knowledge of background and local history. You can't really identify with any person or place. Some people are comfortable with creating and filling in their own version of a world. Identifying and feeling immersed in the game world is what makes or breaks a game like this. Something you know well and feel comfortable in succeeds. Something completely unfamiliar where you have to imagine everything also succeeds. Something half way in-between goes down in flames. For me the mid ground is Marvel Champions. I know nothing about 70% of the characters. But I can't create my own version of them or the world in which they exist because it is a well defined universe. It is a very good game but I don't feel involved in what is going on. I bought a Marvel Encyclopedia and that only made things worse.
@@robertthurman9866 Have you played Aeon Trespass: Odyssey? It got delivered last week and the game is Into The Unknown's first big game, and oh boy, it's the best game I've played in a long time. It is one of the most thematic games I've ever played, with gameplay to match (and exceed most other games I've played), and the story ... it's brilliant.
Yes I absolutely agree with this. I have had plenty of games where I can immersive myself into their “world” even when it’s not narrative driven or even a campaign game. I guess a lot for me at least, really comes down to the aesthetic preference. I know it’s a really weak point. I guess I would have much preferred a shorter campaign with each scenario feeling more different and rewarding. Gloomhaven for me, could have been a better experience if it was 1/2 or even 1/3 the length.
One of Gloomhaven's biggest issues was the uninteresting story. Combine that with nearly every scenario being "slaughter everything", and that put all the weight on the combat. It's a solid, engaging combat mechanism; but the only thing that made the amount of content enjoyable was retirement. It meant that even though the puzzle remained mostly the same, the dynamic to tackle the puzzle would change. Well, until the uneven retirement stuck with a class for too long. I enjoyed Gloomhaven, but even with this review I question if there'll be more immersion with Frosthaven or if the town is just some new levers to pull.
"After 4 or 5 play sessions you probably have about four different quest lines, with a side quest or two spicing things up." God no, on our fifth session we were on our second (unsuccessful) attempt to get through the second scenario, which had narratively upped the ante from "fight bandits in a crypt" to "fight bandits in a crypt except now there is also a skellington."
Really sounds like they improved the weakest part of the game. I'm very excited to get my teeth into the story and see how it's improved over Gloomhaven's.
Still finishing Gloomhaven with my party, and viewing this for the 325th time because I really really want to get this thing started. And trying to upvote this video 325th time as well. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the review of that yellow therma pen. Easily the best instant read digital thermometer on the market. That's for the video, I love your guys content, happy holidays. Hopefully I get my copy soon.
I'm glad you showed some of the outpost tiles, I don't think they've been shown on videos before even though they are quite innocuous. I hope the city management aspect of FH is well integrated into the scenario combat,
From early reports and the draft rulebook that got circulated back around February or so, there's limited direct connection between the two - you'll never need to check the city map during a scenario, and vice versa. Where the two connect is that the Outpost Phase is where you set yourself up for success in scenarios - gaining levels, crafting gear and potions, in some cases building new forms of transport in order to unlock access to scenarios, and so on. In the other direction, at least early on, the need for resources in order to upgrade the outpost pushes you to take more risks during scenarios, and can even nudge you toward picking one scenario over another - need wood? maybe head for a forest; metal? maybe the mountain caves... So there is a feedback between the two and a degree of chasing emergent goals rather than just attempting preset objectives. In a way, it reminds me of the early XCOM games - every tactical mission had the same official victory condition: kill/incapacitate all aliens with minimal casualties - but you'd often have specific additional aims depending on how the campaign was going - capture a certain enemy type for research, or secure certain items intact (rather than tossing high explosive around and taking everything out that way) - that often rewarded higher risk behaviour.
I always get Tony Chocolonely! They're actually better than fair trade. Worth looking into, and the only reason I get it (because yes, the chocolate itself is average). Also yay Frosthaven.
Wait you guys designed 126? We did that mission last weekend in my group what a coincidence! Loved bum rushing the objectives there, coming off the back of a 5 hour mission it was a fun, short romp! Thank you!
Orrrr oooorrr !.... You could give your honest review AND clearly disclaim that you were involved with the project and are friends with Isaac. I know, crazy thought!
I flipping love this channel, you two are amazing! I didn't enjoy gloom haven and have little interest in frost haven but im here for that sweet sweet efka & elaine energy!
I kid, of course. This was a really helpful video for me in understanding what was new and different about this entry in the series. Also, great narrative flourishes and excellent B-roll, well done!
Wow... A video with a proper disclaimer at the start providing us with all the information we need to consider the views offered... (s) It looked so hard to do. No wonder more boardgame reviewers don't do it (/s)
Thank you for this review. You've reminded me of what I disliked in Gloomhaven and why I much prefer Oathsworn and have no interest in Frosthaven. I'm glad I didn't back it and this reinforces that I'm missing nothing.
Tractor-forming Mars? ...that actually sounds pretty good. Do the different tractors get different stats? Can I collect them? Is there a prize for helping my prettiest tractor win the martian tractor beauty competition? How involved are the critical hit location tables for tractor combat?
This was an exceptionally good video, and that's not even surprising. I'm trying NOT to imagine being a board game vlogger who decides, at end of year, to do a video about the ten best board game videos of the year. This person thinks a bit and starts to shudder. "No, no, I can't make a top ten list that's half full of 'no Pun Included' videos. That's not fair! Wait, I have an idea! What if I ignore imagination, depth, and good scripting. Ah, now I can just choose a few of them." - toby
The compromise I found for my Gloomhaven experience was playing it on PC while mirroring my actions on the board game. Actually helped tighten things up a lot more as I could play the game without having to employ brainpower into what the monsters were doing. It was a complete faff, but really enjoyable.
You hit the nail on the head with quantity over quality. Never understood the hype around Gloomhaven, Terraforming Mars, Wingspan, etc. Good games, but not even close to top tier for me. But I love me some Concordia, Ancients, Cyclades or, dunno, Puerto Rico if taking it even more back in time.
I am really enjoying Frosthaven (haven’t played original Gloomhaven, but I played most of Jaws of the Lion solo and enjoyed it). I didn’t love terraforming mars (I don’t hate it, but it didn’t do anything particularly amazing for me). I like wingspan, and am happy to have wingspan Asia as a great 2 player game for me and my hubs. Puerto Rico is one of my favorite games of all time. I hadn’t played it for a few years and just got a play in a couple of months ago… and it’s just so good. I had it back when it used to be #1 on BGG… probably 10+ years ago?
I've played about two hours of Gloomhaven... I really liked it.. But it's such a big game and so much set up and not repayable, that I'm too intimidated to even attempt playing it.. It's sitting on my shelf.. And been there since i got it.. It's like starting a 500,000 piece puzzle that you don't want to start because you don't have the room or time to invest into it. If i had neighbours who were into it, I'd love to restart the game again.
Im Less than 3 minutes in... and I already know this is going to be a great review... despite the bias.... pretty sure you two got me to buy gloomhaven, and I've been hooked ever since. *Edit* 4 Minutes in.... its not a review!!! *Edit*
I would really love to see these folks work on an rpg with lots of legacy elements to support a GM. Playing Gloomhaven for a few months, even with apps, the gameplay just felt like too much of a logic problem to be fun - but the unlocks, stickers, closed packages are always wonderful just don’t think the adventuring ever feels worthwhile for the time investment
I played through Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion, but was disappointed by the difficulty curve that felt very wonky. Now one of my fellow players will receive this game very soon-ish and has asked me to join the campaign. I really hope that the Frosthaven campaign is bit better structured without any weird spikes in difficulty (looking at you, scenario 15 of JotL).
This should be less of a problem with Frosthaven because it is much less linear in scenario progression. That allows you to go off and do something else (and improve your character) while avoiding the difficult encounter.
@@ChadUrsoMcDaniel Problem is, to me, that you don't know ahead of time. So you might end up spending a whole game night (which might be fairly rare in themselves if you're an adult with responsibilities) getting curbstomped by unbalanced scenarios and either not finding the scenario that's appropriate for your group, or telling yourself you're meant to attempt scenarios two, three or even four times. Things like that really, really suck the fun out of the game, especially something as mentally draining as Gloomhaven. Having to try multiple times is a video game staple, but failure in those typically sets you back a few minutes, not an hour or several multiplied by a whole group of people. I've played many group-oriented online video games which _do_ potentially make you more or less waste an entire evening because you can't kill the last boss or whatever the goal was, and it makes people (understandably if you ask me) very upset and demoralized.
@@TaramiBedona I see your point. Fail-states in games (board and video) often feel like barriers to enjoyment. Some games (mostly rogue-likes) integrate this smoothly into the gameplay, while others (mostly coops like this) create the slog effect you describe when you fail. I like how games such as Lands of Galzyr and Sleeping Gods use a constant forward progression in their skill tests. I also think the Pandemic Legacies do a good job of handling fail-states with retries.
@@ChadUrsoMcDaniel Yes, I feel like it would enhance a game like Gloomhaven to have your success rated on a scale. Start with 10 victory points, for every failed objective you lose one VP, that sort of thing. If you do really well, you get some extra reward (not one that necessarily improves your character, since that risks spiraling out of control) and if you do poorly, you get a different plot development but the campaign keeps going. Maybe it could be an option to replay the scenario, but not expected. That would let players just accept defeat and move on to something hopefully more fun.
Thanks for your great review. As long as i am forced to drop abilities/cards in the fighting/movement system however, i can´t recommend or even enjoy it. Abilities and skills should have a cooldown not a "forget about it" effect imho...;-)
The problem with this game is that I feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of content. I still haven't gotten past scenario two in jaws of the lion so I doubt I'll ever tackle this unless I fall into a gaming group that will drive it.
I love me a milked joke, so believe me when I say I got many laughs from the many... many's (manys? manies)? That was offset by the gut wrenching regret I endured for the rest of the revi... design analysis... as I didn't back it.
I ADORE Gloomhaven. But I’m happy to admit that the town phase was light to the point of weightlessness and that the scenarios could be a bit repetitive - to me they’re the charming faults that make you love something more. Part of the fun of playing is when my group gets a road event, hears the ’choice’ and races to chant “do the thing, do the thing” My only concern with Frosthaven is that it’s going to be _too_ perfect. Any slight objections here, I’m fine with. Complicated characters? I’ve played all the official characters, several from Crimson Scales and tested more unofficial ones. A long campaign? Great, I’m playing my favourite game system with my best friends - if it takes 5 years, that’s fine. I hope it’s as good as it seems, and that there’s still some of the bizarre quirks we loved about Gloomhaven. Roll on January, I can’t wait to put my back out picking it up
I feel overwhelmed by this game by simply watching the video. I would play it solo, but feel this isn't really possible for me, to do all that bookkeeping alone. I feels like a chore.
Yep admin of all the modifiers solo socks the fun out of it. Gloomhaven, Frosthaven need a regular group of 3 or 4 in my opinion. Even then, I can only tolerate it in bursts otherwise feels to samey
Lol I appreciate your honesty about bias towards this game. Honestly GH is probably one of the most popular games that absolutely did not hit for me. Interested to see what FH does differently but I can’t imagine it being for me unless they completely retooled the mechanics of GH(which they wouldn’t do).
So, of these many many many many kill all monster scenarios in the game: how did you guys do it differently? How did you go about designing against the grain?
@@NoPunIncluded will most certainly do :-) but am also genuinely interested in the design process itself (should you need ideas for a new video)! Thanks!
One great thing they added to Frosthaven is the ability to switch characters whenever. So you can “save” your current character if you want and switch to another one, purchasing some basic gear to begin with. It’s a great system!
I like Gloomhaven, but it has an overwhelming hatred for me. Misses on my big attacks, Crits when I just want to push an enemy into a trap, cultists summoning skeletons first round of combat. I feel like Charlie Brown kicking a ball. Still backed Frosthaven.
Sounds like a lot of improvement on the story and City side. But I don't care at all about those new characters which seem majorly complicated 🤷♂️ and some, like the bannerman, not well playable with only two players. So still not sure if I'm going to get this... 🤔
Bannerspear is definitely playable in 2p. It has its own reusable Summon to make the formations. Bannerspear is arguably the strongest class of all GH except for 3 Spears.
And to add on to the person above me, the summon is completely controllable by you, so you don't have to rely on ai summon movement to plan your attacks.
I am interested on your thoughts about the puzzle book my group has felt is was the worst part of the game and were all over the place when it came to difficulty and solving method. Also being needed to "beat" the game.
I've stopped buying games that I know I -probably- definitely won't complete. Especially when they take up so much shelf space and are so onerous to set-up/tear-down. Which is kind of a shame, because I like Gloomhaven... but it just sits there on the shelf taking up space. So much time and space.
Really appreciate you being aware of your ability to drive impulse purchasing. There’s nothing wrong with gamers being excited, taking in that sweet dopamine hit, and buying a game. But sometimes people do it not realizing (or just thinking clearly enough to be aware that) the game is not actually for them or won’t actually get played. I think reviewers should actually spend more time to be very clear who they think would or would not enjoy a game. For me, I thought Gloomhaven was really fun and I respect the hell out of it, but I also know I only played 2-3 scenarios and will never actually see Frosthaven hit the table. So the bit at the end saved me from getting too hyped up. The game isn’t for me, and thats okay.
The Boneshaper loses 2 health when summoning a skeleton? Just like Cultists! I love how vibrant the abilities and world feel to me simply because of the names and actions on the cards.
My 2 favorite improvements on the combat side are the unique standees for character summons, and the scenario only revealing the first room, until you open a door then it tells you which page to turn to in order to see what comes next.
That sound slightly annoying having to go multiple placed to setup a scenario, but i guess to each their own
@@MadassSoerensen it is one of the reasons I find very annoying, Also having to create an entire different loot deck for EACH scenario, and then each Scenerio having a huge section of special rules?? You have to be taking 3 tables of copium everyday to say that this game is "better than Gloomhaven in every way"
Super fun "not review discussion thing".
This is definitely a game I wish I could get into, but it kind of ties into that massive amount of content; I never managed to finish gloomhaven.
It's a super fun game, but my friends and I can only meet up a bit less than once a week-and we want to play more than one game for the rest of our lives.
I mean hell, it took us like six to eight months to finish pandemic legacy, which only has 12-24 scenarios instead of like...150.
This was a fantastic video that happened to not be a review while still being approximately as informative as one. I love how much focus there was on the aspects that are more new compared to what gloomhaven offers( how unlocks work , the narrative and the outpost as a whole)
Look, I usually agree with you guys and feel like your critiques are well thought out. But I just can't endorse your radical negative opinions on Tony Chocolonely.
Seriously, though, I mainly like their milk chocolate. Oh, and their dedication to ending slave labor that is all too often how chocolate is made.
But they do have too many "salted" varieties in my opinion. I was over the whole putting extra salt on/in chocolate about a decade ago.
@@mahna_mahna @1
My wife and I just recently fell in love with Tony's!
It’s fine.
It's an ok chocolate. Nothing special
Thank you for this.
The issue I had with gloomhaven is as fun as it is, it felt repetitive. Awesome mechanics but I couldn’t get sucked into it’s World, which made it more of a problem solving experience rather than an immersive one which I cared about the characters or the story.
This is always a problem with original IP's. No pre knowledge of background and local history. You can't really identify with any person or place. Some people are comfortable with creating and filling in their own version of a world.
Identifying and feeling immersed in the game world is what makes or breaks a game like this. Something you know well and feel comfortable in succeeds. Something completely unfamiliar where you have to imagine everything also succeeds. Something half way in-between goes down in flames.
For me the mid ground is Marvel Champions. I know nothing about 70% of the characters. But I can't create my own version of them or the world in which they exist because it is a well defined universe. It is a very good game but I don't feel involved in what is going on. I bought a Marvel Encyclopedia and that only made things worse.
@@robertthurman9866 Have you played Aeon Trespass: Odyssey? It got delivered last week and the game is Into The Unknown's first big game, and oh boy, it's the best game I've played in a long time. It is one of the most thematic games I've ever played, with gameplay to match (and exceed most other games I've played), and the story ... it's brilliant.
Yes I absolutely agree with this.
I have had plenty of games where I can immersive myself into their “world” even when it’s not narrative driven or even a campaign game. I guess a lot for me at least, really comes down to the aesthetic preference. I know it’s a really weak point. I guess I would have much preferred a shorter campaign with each scenario feeling more different and rewarding. Gloomhaven for me, could have been a better experience if it was 1/2 or even 1/3 the length.
One of Gloomhaven's biggest issues was the uninteresting story. Combine that with nearly every scenario being "slaughter everything", and that put all the weight on the combat.
It's a solid, engaging combat mechanism; but the only thing that made the amount of content enjoyable was retirement. It meant that even though the puzzle remained mostly the same, the dynamic to tackle the puzzle would change. Well, until the uneven retirement stuck with a class for too long.
I enjoyed Gloomhaven, but even with this review I question if there'll be more immersion with Frosthaven or if the town is just some new levers to pull.
I didn’t like Gloomhaven, mainly because I didn’t think there were many interesting choices.
Thanks for taking your time to make this video. Was entertaining and engaging to watch. I'm excitedly waiting for my copy to arrive!
lmao I love this, thank you so much and love your energy on this. "What if I didn't like Gloomhaven?" "That's just very silly" lol
had me rolling!
Best game review videos on the internets! Even when you aren’t making a review video, it’s still better than 99% of review videos out there.
A miniature R. Knizia existing INSIDE of the Frosthaven world - is insane. and funnnnny. :)
Efka and Axenut, you two are amazing.
"After 4 or 5 play sessions you probably have about four different quest lines, with a side quest or two spicing things up." God no, on our fifth session we were on our second (unsuccessful) attempt to get through the second scenario, which had narratively upped the ante from "fight bandits in a crypt" to "fight bandits in a crypt except now there is also a skellington."
i dont know nofink about no skellingtons
Really sounds like they improved the weakest part of the game. I'm very excited to get my teeth into the story and see how it's improved over Gloomhaven's.
This not-a-review is very informative.
If only there were many scenarios 😄
Still finishing Gloomhaven with my party, and viewing this for the 325th time because I really really want to get this thing started. And trying to upvote this video 325th time as well. Keep up the good work.
you two are an absolute joy to view! Love your videos! Great work!
Thanks for the review of that yellow therma pen. Easily the best instant read digital thermometer on the market. That's for the video, I love your guys content, happy holidays. Hopefully I get my copy soon.
Thanks for a great review. Others cover the differences between it and GH but you really explain how those changes affect the game play. Well played.
I feel like with the added "palpable" dimension of the buildings and seasons, frosthaven is basically a full-featured X-com board game.
Separation Sunday on vinyl in the background. Nice!
Like the cover and insides of the box 📦 👌
Always informative AND entertaining!
fond memories shall be made! The adventures of spear person and sword guy
Loved this. Thanks, you two!
I'm glad you showed some of the outpost tiles, I don't think they've been shown on videos before even though they are quite innocuous. I hope the city management aspect of FH is well integrated into the scenario combat,
From early reports and the draft rulebook that got circulated back around February or so, there's limited direct connection between the two - you'll never need to check the city map during a scenario, and vice versa. Where the two connect is that the Outpost Phase is where you set yourself up for success in scenarios - gaining levels, crafting gear and potions, in some cases building new forms of transport in order to unlock access to scenarios, and so on. In the other direction, at least early on, the need for resources in order to upgrade the outpost pushes you to take more risks during scenarios, and can even nudge you toward picking one scenario over another - need wood? maybe head for a forest; metal? maybe the mountain caves...
So there is a feedback between the two and a degree of chasing emergent goals rather than just attempting preset objectives. In a way, it reminds me of the early XCOM games - every tactical mission had the same official victory condition: kill/incapacitate all aliens with minimal casualties - but you'd often have specific additional aims depending on how the campaign was going - capture a certain enemy type for research, or secure certain items intact (rather than tossing high explosive around and taking everything out that way) - that often rewarded higher risk behaviour.
I always get Tony Chocolonely! They're actually better than fair trade. Worth looking into, and the only reason I get it (because yes, the chocolate itself is average). Also yay Frosthaven.
You should check out the purple one (dark milk chocolate with pretzels), it's amazing!
@@namrevo84 oooo I haven't tried that one yet!
Truly the BEST review that I have seen thus far. You guys are terrific and entertaining. Well done.
Great video. I'll be waiting for 'Jaws' release of this, that one was perfect for me.
Wait you guys designed 126? We did that mission last weekend in my group what a coincidence!
Loved bum rushing the objectives there, coming off the back of a 5 hour mission it was a fun, short romp! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Tony!!! Amazing video, especially handling bias sooo well 🤩🙌
Thank you for not just making reviews.
Orrrr oooorrr !.... You could give your honest review AND clearly disclaim that you were involved with the project and are friends with Isaac. I know, crazy thought!
Missed your great videos. Thank you.
Super, thanks for this. Now I cannot sleep until my box is here.
I flipping love this channel, you two are amazing! I didn't enjoy gloom haven and have little interest in frost haven but im here for that sweet sweet efka & elaine energy!
That‘s just very silly ;) 1:46
It's the best game that I'd never find a proper group or enough time to play. Hopefully work is already begun on the digital iteration.
Congrats on receiving your copy! I'm still waiting =)
Thank you for this fantastic, albeit rambling, review of Tony's Chocolonely.
I kid, of course. This was a really helpful video for me in understanding what was new and different about this entry in the series. Also, great narrative flourishes and excellent B-roll, well done!
Wow... A video with a proper disclaimer at the start providing us with all the information we need to consider the views offered... (s) It looked so hard to do. No wonder more boardgame reviewers don't do it (/s)
Thank you for this review. You've reminded me of what I disliked in Gloomhaven and why I much prefer Oathsworn and have no interest in Frosthaven. I'm glad I didn't back it and this reinforces that I'm missing nothing.
Only problem with Oathsworn is it's too short.
@@Heidelmann Hmmm... Too short you say? For me, this is not a problem!
I love design analysis videos, keep these up
Frosthaven kickstarter arrived today, didn't stop me from buying two other boardgames :-)
I am not interested in Frosthaven.... but this Review was a joy nonetheless.
And I may now get the Gloomhaven PC game on the next Sale🤣
Tractor-forming Mars?
...that actually sounds pretty good. Do the different tractors get different stats? Can I collect them? Is there a prize for helping my prettiest tractor win the martian tractor beauty competition? How involved are the critical hit location tables for tractor combat?
Very much enjoyed this non-review. Cheers both.
Great video! You two are hilarious. Love it!
Loving Elaine's hair
This was an exceptionally good video, and that's not even surprising. I'm trying NOT to imagine being a board game vlogger who decides, at end of year, to do a video about the ten best board game videos of the year. This person thinks a bit and starts to shudder. "No, no, I can't make a top ten list that's half full of 'no Pun Included' videos. That's not fair! Wait, I have an idea! What if I ignore imagination, depth, and good scripting. Ah, now I can just choose a few of them." - toby
Brilliant video! ❤
In summary, more pieces, more parts, more box, and more game. Where Gloomhaven was Partshaven, this game could have been titled Morehaven!
Ant and Tony...
I'm liking this video but I shouldn't just for that 🤣
The compromise I found for my Gloomhaven experience was playing it on PC while mirroring my actions on the board game. Actually helped tighten things up a lot more as I could play the game without having to employ brainpower into what the monsters were doing. It was a complete faff, but really enjoyable.
Nothing better than watching guy from Shining reviewing the game. Exciting !
You hit the nail on the head with quantity over quality. Never understood the hype around Gloomhaven, Terraforming Mars, Wingspan, etc. Good games, but not even close to top tier for me.
But I love me some Concordia, Ancients, Cyclades or, dunno, Puerto Rico if taking it even more back in time.
I am really enjoying Frosthaven (haven’t played original Gloomhaven, but I played most of Jaws of the Lion solo and enjoyed it). I didn’t love terraforming mars (I don’t hate it, but it didn’t do anything particularly amazing for me). I like wingspan, and am happy to have wingspan Asia as a great 2 player game for me and my hubs.
Puerto Rico is one of my favorite games of all time. I hadn’t played it for a few years and just got a play in a couple of months ago… and it’s just so good. I had it back when it used to be #1 on BGG… probably 10+ years ago?
I've played about two hours of Gloomhaven... I really liked it.. But it's such a big game and so much set up and not repayable, that I'm too intimidated to even attempt playing it.. It's sitting on my shelf.. And been there since i got it..
It's like starting a 500,000 piece puzzle that you don't want to start because you don't have the room or time to invest into it. If i had neighbours who were into it, I'd love to restart the game again.
Im Less than 3 minutes in... and I already know this is going to be a great review... despite the bias.... pretty sure you two got me to buy gloomhaven, and I've been hooked ever since.
*Edit* 4 Minutes in.... its not a review!!! *Edit*
Such an amazing review with very great writing quality!
Wish they'd do a jaws of the lion style box for frosthaven
Ngl, was hoping FH would be the LAST BG I ever needed lol. Been saying that about gloomhaven since I got it
700 TRACTORS ?!?!?!
That’s unheard of!
(Not anymore, he just said it)
I would really love to see these folks work on an rpg with lots of legacy elements to support a GM. Playing Gloomhaven for a few months, even with apps, the gameplay just felt like too much of a logic problem to be fun - but the unlocks, stickers, closed packages are always wonderful just don’t think the adventuring ever feels worthwhile for the time investment
I played through Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion, but was disappointed by the difficulty curve that felt very wonky. Now one of my fellow players will receive this game very soon-ish and has asked me to join the campaign. I really hope that the Frosthaven campaign is bit better structured without any weird spikes in difficulty (looking at you, scenario 15 of JotL).
This should be less of a problem with Frosthaven because it is much less linear in scenario progression. That allows you to go off and do something else (and improve your character) while avoiding the difficult encounter.
@@ChadUrsoMcDaniel Problem is, to me, that you don't know ahead of time. So you might end up spending a whole game night (which might be fairly rare in themselves if you're an adult with responsibilities) getting curbstomped by unbalanced scenarios and either not finding the scenario that's appropriate for your group, or telling yourself you're meant to attempt scenarios two, three or even four times. Things like that really, really suck the fun out of the game, especially something as mentally draining as Gloomhaven.
Having to try multiple times is a video game staple, but failure in those typically sets you back a few minutes, not an hour or several multiplied by a whole group of people. I've played many group-oriented online video games which _do_ potentially make you more or less waste an entire evening because you can't kill the last boss or whatever the goal was, and it makes people (understandably if you ask me) very upset and demoralized.
@@TaramiBedona I see your point. Fail-states in games (board and video) often feel like barriers to enjoyment. Some games (mostly rogue-likes) integrate this smoothly into the gameplay, while others (mostly coops like this) create the slog effect you describe when you fail.
I like how games such as Lands of Galzyr and Sleeping Gods use a constant forward progression in their skill tests. I also think the Pandemic Legacies do a good job of handling fail-states with retries.
@@ChadUrsoMcDaniel Yes, I feel like it would enhance a game like Gloomhaven to have your success rated on a scale. Start with 10 victory points, for every failed objective you lose one VP, that sort of thing. If you do really well, you get some extra reward (not one that necessarily improves your character, since that risks spiraling out of control) and if you do poorly, you get a different plot development but the campaign keeps going. Maybe it could be an option to replay the scenario, but not expected. That would let players just accept defeat and move on to something hopefully more fun.
Ain't nobody got time for dat.
I'll be waiting for the app.
You should start with “jaws of the knizia”
God I want this game.
The hold steady!
Thanks for your great review. As long as i am forced to drop abilities/cards in the fighting/movement system however, i can´t recommend or even enjoy it. Abilities and skills should have a cooldown not a "forget about it" effect imho...;-)
You get them back next fight. So you didn’t forget them, you’re just too exhausted to use that crazy move again!
After seeing that box I have to ask myself... if the height ever exceeds the width does the height now become the width?
The problem with this game is that I feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of content. I still haven't gotten past scenario two in jaws of the lion so I doubt I'll ever tackle this unless I fall into a gaming group that will drive it.
I love me a milked joke, so believe me when I say I got many laughs from the many... many's (manys? manies)?
That was offset by the gut wrenching regret I endured for the rest of the revi... design analysis... as I didn't back it.
Whaaaaaaaat?! It's here!!!
Efka! How dare you slander the great name of Tony’s Chocoloney!
Bangin hair Elaine. The review is good too.
I ADORE Gloomhaven. But I’m happy to admit that the town phase was light to the point of weightlessness and that the scenarios could be a bit repetitive - to me they’re the charming faults that make you love something more. Part of the fun of playing is when my group gets a road event, hears the ’choice’ and races to chant “do the thing, do the thing”
My only concern with Frosthaven is that it’s going to be _too_ perfect. Any slight objections here, I’m fine with. Complicated characters? I’ve played all the official characters, several from Crimson Scales and tested more unofficial ones.
A long campaign? Great, I’m playing my favourite game system with my best friends - if it takes 5 years, that’s fine.
I hope it’s as good as it seems, and that there’s still some of the bizarre quirks we loved about Gloomhaven.
Roll on January, I can’t wait to put my back out picking it up
i didnt like gloomhaven, too. i also will prob not buy frosthaven. but trying for sure! thank you guys for your great review
Yep. Still not here in Canada.
You beautiful nerds! 😂
Supporting comment. Thx alot
I feel overwhelmed by this game by simply watching the video.
I would play it solo, but feel this isn't really possible for me, to do all that bookkeeping alone. I feels like a chore.
Yep admin of all the modifiers solo socks the fun out of it. Gloomhaven, Frosthaven need a regular group of 3 or 4 in my opinion. Even then, I can only tolerate it in bursts otherwise feels to samey
@@SL1M73
I feel some dice to randomize atracks would solve the issue.
If you have an average pc: you could get the gloomhaven game on steam too.
Lol I appreciate your honesty about bias towards this game. Honestly GH is probably one of the most popular games that absolutely did not hit for me. Interested to see what FH does differently but I can’t imagine it being for me unless they completely retooled the mechanics of GH(which they wouldn’t do).
So, of these many many many many kill all monster scenarios in the game: how did you guys do it differently? How did you go about designing against the grain?
Scenario #126, give it a spin, tell us what you think!
@@NoPunIncluded will most certainly do :-) but am also genuinely interested in the design process itself (should you need ideas for a new video)! Thanks!
Appreciate the enthusiasm, but we're probably just about the two least qualified people to speak about game design.
What game are you showing and talking about at 3:21?
Love the Schrodinger cat approach.
Can you give us a video covering the different characters as seems scary - I'm worried about choosing the wrong one for me
One great thing they added to Frosthaven is the ability to switch characters whenever. So you can “save” your current character if you want and switch to another one, purchasing some basic gear to begin with. It’s a great system!
First thing I noticed: Bendy bent boards of bending. 😢
Why didn’t they take the set-up from JOTL (scenario maps in a book)?. I really enjoyed this non-review by the way
They also have a version of the scenario book that you can get where they put the maps in the booklet JotL style.
@@LevelTUV2 that’s just what I needed to hear, thanks
I like Gloomhaven, but it has an overwhelming hatred for me. Misses on my big attacks, Crits when I just want to push an enemy into a trap, cultists summoning skeletons first round of combat. I feel like Charlie Brown kicking a ball.
Still backed Frosthaven.
After over a year of playing Frosthaven I can confidently say that Outpost Phase was too much.
Buy the video game, got it.
23:30 to be fair. The best scenarios were always those where you could just wack some monsters around than those with overcomplicated mechanics
*quickly hides scenario 126*
Sounds like a lot of improvement on the story and City side. But I don't care at all about those new characters which seem majorly complicated 🤷♂️ and some, like the bannerman, not well playable with only two players. So still not sure if I'm going to get this... 🤔
Bannerspear is definitely playable in 2p. It has its own reusable Summon to make the formations. Bannerspear is arguably the strongest class of all GH except for 3 Spears.
And to add on to the person above me, the summon is completely controllable by you, so you don't have to rely on ai summon movement to plan your attacks.
I am interested on your thoughts about the puzzle book my group has felt is was the worst part of the game and were all over the place when it came to difficulty and solving method. Also being needed to "beat" the game.
Ok but is the Knizia part a bit or not because I could genuinely see him being in this (or at least contributing a scenario).
It's a bit, sorry.
Do they have a "Helper App" out for this yet? Or something similar like everyone used for GH.
There's an officially licensed one by Lucky Duck Games
@@NoPunIncluded cool. Thanks for the quick reply. Hope the app is good!
3:20 what game is that?
th-cam.com/video/cphK0L8swQI/w-d-xo.html
I've stopped buying games that I know I -probably- definitely won't complete.
Especially when they take up so much shelf space and are so onerous to set-up/tear-down.
Which is kind of a shame, because I like Gloomhaven... but it just sits there on the shelf taking up space.
So much time and space.
Elaine, as an aside, you hair looks nice, but I will listen to this NPI (non) review as I value your insight as a gaming group
How many scenarios are there again?
some
Good video.