Socata TBM-850 crashes during approach at Buffalo | Near Corfu, NY
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2020
- Socata TBM-850 performing flight from Manchester to Buffalo was enroute at FL280 when somehow lost radio contact with Boston Center.
The pilot managed to contact Buffalo Approach which instructed the pilot to initiate descent into Buffalo. The aircraft suddenly began a steep right turn and fast descent until radar contact was lost.
Audio source: www.liveatc.net
![[REAL ATC] Brickyard E170 BOTH ENGINES FAILED enroute | Diverts to Nashville!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bCkdZq4nfYE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] Brickyard E170 BOTH ENGINES FAILED enroute | Diverts to Nashville!](/img/tr.png)
Kudos to all Buffalo and Boston controllers who did their best trying to get ahold of 5DM during more than 20 minutes and guide them into Buffalo.
Rest in Peace.
Very sad. Not to nit-pick, but I believe this was a TBM-700?
@@terrymeadows2384 yes it was...very odd ending!..crashed in the woods about 30 Miles from me.
@@terrymeadows2384 According to Aviation Safety Network's listing for this crash, the 700N and 850 are the same.
I was praying the whole time aloud. 😔
@@silmarian yes...but 850 SHP vs 700.
When the controller feels compelled to ask if everything is alright, it isn’t.
That's right...
Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate -- "Everything is fine" isn't communicating.
TBM: (Probably) Squawking 7600 RF, Also TBM: "everything is fine"
Yes, that's mostly true, but he can't teleport himself into the cockpit, But he maybe could've expedited the approach. At the same time, maybe he was thinking, lets give this guy a few minutes to get it together. That said, he might have suspected an O2 issue and just given lower, to the thicker air. I know 10,000 is fine, but, not if you're in O2-deprivation already.
After watching a few of these videos, I feel like there ought to be a rule that if a controller asks you if everything is all right, you put on your oxygen mask regardless.
Steve Barnes, the pilot, ran a firm I used to work for. Great guy who gave a shit about his staff. We lost a good person in this.
well, nice to hear something positive about a successful personal injury lawyer. They are mostly ambulance chasers. Not all, of course as this man may have been a really helpful person. Too bad he died that way and took his niece with him.
The only problem is he was way over his head in flying a Socata TBM turboprop aircraft. He didn't know what he was doing.
@Dominick Smith , oh no! This was no way an ATC fault. I mean, even in the beginning, the pilot had no radio contact. Yet Boston & Buffalo ATCs had no problem communicating with other pilots. I'm hoping hard that the ATC guy comes out okay.... Except I just came from Blancolirio... You're right... Poor ATC guy!!
Very mysterious. Rest in peace.
not mysterious at all.
because?
Maybe some sort of electrical failure took out his instrumentation. Could be his radio issues were linked to that?
Nothing mysterious. The PIC botched his approach, too high and too close. He was way behind the aircraft. Didn’t understand he was being boxed around. Exceeded airframe speed in a rapid decent.
@@TheBeingReal there's more to it than that.
Victor, you really picked up on this. Thanks. Great job in a tragic circumstance.
@VASAviationb thank you for taking the time to put these videos together. I am disabled after having several accidents. I cannot get out of the house to often right now. So your vidoes help me pass the time. I am learning how to produce videos and know how much time and effort you put into these videos. Just wanted to let you know of myt appreciation.
Hope you get well soon and agree that this guy deserves the appreciation for this kind of work.
Juan Browne over on blancolirio channel mentions you often, Victor. I love it when a consummate professional gives a shoutout to another up-and-coming consummate pro! Two of my favorite Aviation go-to guys.
RIP the barrister and his niece. NTSB is on the scene and can be trusted to do a very thorough job with this tragic crash.
“Radar contact lost” gets you in the feels. Ugh.
Juan and Victor are some of the greatest assets the aviation community has.
I think Juan has given a few shutouts to VASAviation!
NTSB will not be on the scene due to COVID. FAA will be on the scene.
In the US a barrister is a lawyer. This guy seemed to be what were defined as ambulance chasers. Got rich that way but not smart enough to fly safely. Sorry about that but the truth hurts.
@@linanicolia1363 OK thanks for the update, Mr. Know-it-all.
That was Steve Barnes of Cellino and Barns firm and his niece that died in this crash. RIP.
How awful, seems the TBM was piloted by the well-known lawyer Stephen Barnes and his niece.
Rest in peace to them both.
www.nytimes.com/2020/10/02/nyregion/stephen-barnes-dead-plane-crash.html
does it matter the pilot was a well known lawyer ? makes no difference, he is dead now. Why fly at 28 000 feet when getting close to your destination ? did he get distracted ? Gees....time flies.....???
Every village has a lina nicolia
@@linanicolia1363 he lost radio contact with Boston Center before they handed him off to Cleveland Center around Syracuse - by that point they would have cleared him to lower altitudes in steps for descent - but because he finally gave up trying to contact Boston, he switched his radio over to Buffalo Approach west of Rochester to get permission to start his descent who said to descend from 28,000 to 8,000 feet. His rate of descent was within limits of the aircraft, but his air speed was higher than the limits for the aircraft which caused him to lose control and crash.
@@lesterawilson3 very sad.
RIP to the individuals. Not saying this is the case, but if ATC asks you if somethings wrong, it could be an indication they see something you don't. Don't let your pride kill you. Be forthright about where you are in that exact moment and accept any help that is offered.
Specially after losing contact with him already and the response being kinda very nonchalant
Rip and thought and prayers to the family.
Not a good moment for the controller, hang in there bro, for the TBM RIP.
as a prior controller it is the sickest feeling in the world. in my time I lost 2 aircraft on frequency, not because of my actions but both due to catastrophic failures
Paul Hood - I guess we walked the same trail.
@@rubenvillanueva8635 I worked at Zweibrucken and KMER with the USAF...California was wild, everyone flew
Paul Hood 🌬sending healing vibes to u
My deepest respects to all Air Controllers. You are the most precious asset to any pilot, and a friend to all that taste the freedoms of flight
So tragic.
Rest in peace.
Hola tremendas gracias por su trabajo. saludos Iberian
Thanks for sharing this with Juan Brown over at the Blancholirio channel. Hope to see you guys do a collab video someday, or maybe a flight together.
RIP Steve and Elizabeth Barnes. If you're from NY, you know Steve Barnes of Cellino & Barnes (injury attorneys).
Injury attorney of local respect?
🎶Cellino and Barnes🎶, injury attorneys🎶 call 454-2020🎶 (or of recent, 888-8888).
Jesus... I’m in California and I’ve heard their ads.... that was them?
@@AviationJeremy yes
MSMs reported it was a TBM7 SERIES that he crashed in. They got it incorrect?
Prayers and Condolences for the Family and the Lawyer's Practice :(
Prayers to the lost and to their family.
Also prayers to the ATC to have strength and peace.
You did all you could and did an excellent job at that.
RIP
Thank you 😊 always the best alerts.
TFW you see TBM-850 and you scroll the comments before the video to make sure it's not steveo1kinevo. Whew!
I'm local to the Buffalo area Steve Barnes the reported pilot is a household name in the Buffalo area due to his Cellino and Barnes lawyer advertising on TV. RIP
@Jim M yeah he's a well-known local injury lawyer. His face is plastered over billboards and television advertising for well over a decade.
@Guss Ruffee 😂
Their ads were all over Western NY for at least a good 20 years. I met the guy once when I was working for Hodgson Russ. RIP.
@Guss Ruffee Takes chasing an ambulance in a different direction.
How awful.. doesn’t look like a rudder hard over like the description makes it seems but that just deepens the mystery of what happened . Rest In Peace pilot and hopefully a cause can be determined
Life can change in the twinkling of an eye....RIP
Last radio comm is at about 2:20 in the vid, where he acknowledges the controller comm about rerouting him. He's still at FL280 at that point, and we never hear him again. Radar shows a descent to about FL200, and then an abrupt right turn.
seems like hypoxia, may be electrical fire
The flight track info from flightaware is crazy. RIP.
Cap. Adam do you have the link?
Joseph Dale If you go on FlightAware or FlightRadar24 and type in the tail number it will show up
Last radar contact was at FL110. Then nothing. Thats straight down.
GoldenAce57 Thanks bro. Tragic.
@@AreeyaKKC or an in-flight breakup
Don’t want to speculate, but I have found at least 3 other TBM-700 total loss accidents that all involved a sharp right hand turn and steep descent (in one case at 25,000 fpm) just before crashing. One in France, one in Canada, and one here. Most 700s aren’t equipped with FDRs and accident reports really don’t come to any conclusions other than a “loss of control for undetermined reasons.” Would be nice to see NTSB recommend that all 700s have FDRs installed. RIP to the aviator, the passenger, and thoughts and prayers to their families.
This is an 850 however
@@justanotheraviator2357 700
@@justanotheraviator2357 no it is not
you may have something there, but this guy was too high in terms of his descend to Buffalo. Maybe he tried to rush it down and ended up with a power on stall. Strange he could not recover. He certainly had the altitude to do so !
Mike Benjamin This is an 850, it’s written on the side of the airplane. Also:
«The TBM 850 is the production name for the TBM 700N, an improved version of the aircraft powered by a single Pratt & Whitney PT6A-66D engine, which is flat rated at 850 shp... »
-Wikipedia
(I'm ATC and a CFI, the opinions are my own, and are NOT official FAA positions) It is way too early to speculate about this one. Doesn't sound at all like hypoxia, and nothing else jumps out at me as obvious unless maybe the pilot "fell behind the airplane" because of the late descent after probably getting on a wrong frequency earlier. There are cases where pilots are trying to play catch-up when something unexpected happens, though it's not clear if that's what happened here. Good job to the BUF approach controller trying to get the pilot to just level the wings at any altitude once something was clearly wrong. If -- if -- the pilot fell behind, it's a reminder to all pilots to Aviate first, then Navigate, then Communicate.
Well, the NTSB released a statement that they should have a report ready in 7 to 10 days.
@@jackielinde7568 it is a preliminary report. It will just confirm the aircraft crashed, where, how many souls onboard, fatal, and aircraft type and tail number.
It will be about 1 year before the final report, which will attempt to explain what happened. This TBM should have onboard data recording, so if the memory survived, there is a possibility, but not likely.
The aircraft are not equipped with "Black Boxes."
@Copter Cop aircraft is rated for 320 kts maximum cruise - he went from 252 kts at 28,000 feet cruise altitude and hit 315 to 345 while descending, lost control around 18,000 feet (probably lost his elevator), veered sharply off course, hit 446 kts at 11,000 feet before radar contact was lost. Large area of wreckage reported by local law enforcement indicates breakup in flight.
@@lesterawilson3 Any idea what the "Never Exceed" speed for the aircraft was? Even though it was rated for 320 knots maximum cruise, it was probably built to withstand far higher speeds. Admittedly, 446 kts probably exceeded the structural limits.
@@lesterawilson3 true, but flightaware had him briefly at 400 kts in the middle of cruise. If true, remarkable he made it that far. If not, makes you wonder about the flight data output. The airspeed readouts on Flightaware are like nothing I've seen before.
From Buffalo, rest in piece. I hope you landed safe, though.
Heartbreaking to listen to. The controller knew something was not right which is why he asked the question. So many possibilities for what went wrong, at this point it's not even worth speculating. So, let's begin the speculation.
Yes, very odd. Even in the pilots voice you could tell something wasn't quite right.
According to a new article on the story, the NTSB thinks they'll have a report on the accident ready in 7 to 10 days. I guess we wait and see.
😂
You are right. At this point it is not worth speculating.....
So I think it may have been "snakes on a plane"
@@jackielinde7568 That will be the preliminary report. It will only briefly list known facts about the incident, it won't include any analysis or conclusions. That final report will take months if not a year or more.
Flying at 28,000 feet and cleared directly down to 8,000 feet. That is one heck of a single altitude reduction. Maybe the pilot didn't realize (or didn't hear due to comms problem) that the controller intended to direct him past the airport and then into a left downwind approach to give him time and space to descend. Is it possible in trying to lose the altitude before reaching the airport he got into too steep a rate of descent and was unable to recover?
Something seemed wrong for sure. Very Sad. RIP : (
Very strange and mysterious, and sad nothing could be done to stop this. Rest in peace.
This is sad. One of the worst years for aviation incidents. Blancolirio must be losing his mind.
Accidents like this are going to destroy GA! (Insurance) stby for an update...Juan Thanks Victor for posting!
Yes like he do not already have enough on his plate , lucky he wife must really love him !!
I live in the BUF area too and according to FA the planes speed was all over the place at FL280. From 200kts to over 400, then dropped from 280 to the crash at over 400 knots.
Probably just an ADS-B anomaly.
@@MikeCris Looks like he was having comms issues on his return flight to Buffalo. The Buffalo to Manchester flight was using ATC data for tracking. But the return flight was MLAT which estimates positions (the final 'ping' in FlightAware is well north of the actual crash site). This explains the speed variances with MLAT flight tracking. flightaware.com/adsb/mlat/
Buffalo to Manchester flight data - you'll see the logged flight speeds are much smoother...
flightaware.com/live/flight/N965DM/history/20201002/1115Z/KBUF/KMHT/tracklog
i hear no distress in stevens voice and he sounds very confident what the hell happened? rest in peace. i hope there was a black box on that aircraft
RIP Steve Barnes and his niece
That's sad. Can you give an update on this later on?
With a William Matter ad before it starts. Wow.
1:59 and 2:01 what are those beeps?
Are there earlier communications with Boston Center?
Whatever happened had to happen in the air...did the plane break up in flight?
Real heart stopper when the radar disappears. Very unusual situation. Acts like hes impaired but didn't sound like it.
I’m reminded of a video posted on this channel of a pilot in Australia who was out of it but sounded ok. Eventually he was shepherded to a safe landing bur was resistant at first.
You got mentioned on NY POST
Very sad. His niece was on the plane and they were headed to a birthday celebration for his mom. I don't know how many hours he had or his IFR experience but it doesn't appear these were terrible IMC conditions. I'm think with the loss of communication there may have been some other technical issue and the reason he asked for vectors to the ILS approach. Hopefully there is enough of the controls and instrumentation to piece together what happened.
My guess: after he was instructed to start the descent he loaded and activated the approach. The plane immediately turned right and started heading for the initial approach fix. Seeing this the pilot scrambled to correct the planes course back to the airport probably by turning off the auto pilot and manually using the control wheel. Somewhere in there he got messed up.
ianh That’s just a guess. The reason that that’s my guess as to what easily could’ve happened is because I’ve seen it many times. I made that mistake myself when I was first learning advanced avionics. There is training out there on how to go up and down the levels of automation with the auto pilot. For instance you don’t necessarily just shut it off. If things aren’t working out better to put it in heading an altitude hold them to shut it off while you’re trying to figure out what’s wrong and fix it. Anyway we’ll see what happens after the investigation.
Exactly, he lost it setting up a new approach into the flight director.
When i read TBM-850 i thought nooooooooo. For those who know steveo1kinevo but still sad r.i.p
this one was a 700 model. Not as powerful.
Does anyone know what happened here?
The 2 people on board were Steve Barnes of Cellino and Barnes and his neice. May them Rest In Peace 🕊
Aren’t you supposed to switch on 7700 if in trouble? Doesnt that work despite radio interruptions? Newbie here.
Correct.
7500 hijack
7600 comm problems
7700 emergency
He wasn't having any mechanical or inflight problems other than radio issues (or user error) . In that case the correct squawk code would be 7600. Also,.. if you lose comms with a controller, you can always dial in 121.5 on com radios and say who you are, where you are, what altitude, and ask for a frequency. You will be amazed how quickly people respond.
Was this day or night, IMC or VMC? (Edit, 1145 am local time)
The UTC is by nature the worldwide time clock for all aviation messages and notes such as crash times. Just to ensure that all aircraft are aware of each other's activity and to coordinate cargo loads.
@@martintheiss4038 It was 1145 local, thus it was a daylight crash. For UTC, add 4 hours.
Why is the red "RF" [Radio Failure?] displayed throughout video when there is radio communication?
It may have been tagged by ATC
Simulated tagged by ATC
Because this is a snippet of a longer scene. They had been trying to communicate with him. He clearly had some radio issues before they finally contacted him. So why wouldn’t they tag it RF??
I can never remember, from videos to videos, RF SQUAWK is 7200, 7600 or 7700??
7500 is hijacking
7600 is lost comms
7700 is emergency
@@garty2 Thank you!
75 taken alive
76 need a fix
77 goin to heaven
I live in buffalo and it sucks to hear about this. Last major crash here was the cologan air.
Asking for reasonable speculation for POSSIBLE causes. I think pilot incapacitation would have to be very high on the list. Possibly hypoxia. Chances of that after comm failure? Possible indication of an electrical or control problem with the aircraft?
Possible spatial disorientation as well, or unreliable airspeed indicators.
@@AEMoreira81 I almost wonder if he didn't understand what KBUF was going to do to get him on the ILS and got "Getdownitis" and aggressively headed for the deck and pulled the wings off of it or otherwise got too behind to recover.
If I read the screen correctly the aircraft was flying at 11.300 ft when the contact was lost. How do you lose contact at that altitude? Transponder failure?
In-flight breakup?
Very sad! Very close to me in NY.
Hmmm....another TBM, another issue at altitude. Be interesting to see if another cabin pressurization issue happened here.
Problem with the TBM is that pilots let them get around on them. They are high performance and ride the envelope. Its like owning a Ferrari you can't take your off it for a second or it will kill you. I've flown a TBM-900 second seat doing the landing and running the radios for a friend and it is touchy but a lot of fun. The amount of power in it is insane however as my friend was telling me when we did preflight it can go from fun to death in a split secnd.
Makes me second guess on buying one. I'm in the process of doing so within this next couple months.
Is there a CVR on the Socata TBM 700N?
Negative
@@VASAviation cvr black box should be mandatory on this kind of planes. Pilatus 12 has 3 hypoxia alert systems, hard not to notice. Same here?
Hypoxia, definitely.
They were in a fughe, dream-like state due to lack of oxygen at altitude. There had to have been a cabin pressurization issue. As the plane descended and/or he acclimated partially to the environment he regained consciousness briefly enough to make radio contact, but he was definitely not in his right mind. Scary.
I'm not hearing that...just heavier breathing, at times, than would seem normal.
@@robinc4605 its the lack of response, his not responding to radio calls. He didn't sound sharp when he was comminicating.
For a guy who was purported to be an experienced pilot I would think he'd normally be more on the ball. He sounded confused.
My guess is he had lost consciousness for an extended period of time and was totally disoriented when he came to because to him he still should have been 90 miles or more away. He hadn't realized something had happened to him. This is quite common with hypoxia.
@@briansavage932
The lack of response can easily be explained as some sort of system failure/issue instead. This could've been indicative of bigger problems on board, which the pilot seemed unaware of during communication with ATC. Both theories are good but I'm leaning toward system failure. Please let me know if you hear any updated information on the cause of crash findings.
@@robinc4605 as somebody said, seems hypoxia fl28 to fl20 over batavia while most are at fl10 over batavia.
maybe. How can the NTSB find anything conclusive with the conditions of these remains ? did it burn also ?
That must have been horrifying for the controller! I wonder what happened there. Rest in peace.
Everything okay? That was odd. Everything was not....
Single pilot in the wx. Requires lots of proficiency. Throw in being waaaay to high and misunderstanding the left base to an ILS comment. That rate of descent = gobs of speed. Large crater with widely spread debris field sounds like an inflight breakup with the engine going straight in to form a crater.
I tried to see a video of the crash site but found nothing. A crater ? they were completely mangled for sure. Bits and pieces to find in that crash. Something the families have to further suffer ; no real bodies there.....No fun for the NTSB either.
power on stall ? Maximum velocity aggravated by the engine still running. Had to be Hell in there ,for an eternity as just seconds may feel , it will never end....Hope they passed out. ..
@@linanicolia1363 I read that part of plane burrowed down to 15 feet.
Looks, sounds, and feels like spatial disorientation. Sad 😕
@Kevin R Time is irrelevant if you have instrument failure(s) in IFR conditions - what was weather at 11:45am in this location?
@@jamie_ar I would assume IMC since you can hear a flight call "airport in sight" but that's just a guess.
Probable explanation is a rapid depressurization, as far as I can tell. He dropped it almost 11,000 ft per minute from flight level 280
@@jamie_ar i live near by 20 miles or so. It was raining all day Friday
@@justanotheraviator2357 wouldnt be 1st time a TBM lost pressurization. Remember few years ago the one flying from ROC crashed outside Jamaica or Cuba because of hypoxia
This plane was just on my ramp at the FBO I work at a month ago
Just goes to show.
You never know what might happen to the planes you see or deal with.
Cheers, fellow a/c tech.
Decompression issue?
Im just speculating but one of my thoughts is a electrical short which first caused radio issues and let to a pressure system fail with instant decompression and therefore loss of consciousness
One would think that a pressurization system would fail in the not-kill-people setting with a loss of power.
Tech Gorilla one would think that a short can be devastating regardless of what settings the system is in. (eg. TWA800)
Radar shows them essentially dropping out of the sky from FL280...exceeding 11K FPM.
Wow!!!
Could this aircraft type experience a flat spin? Other than than a nose-down dive, I don't know how an aircraft could fall so quickly.
Spins don’t descend particularly fast. Maybe 5 or 6 thousand fpm.
Could have been medical but the prior radio failure coincidence is the most relevant clue available for investigation.
Suggests electrical to me.
Maybe an electrical fire or short. Electrical problems can cause very confusing gremlins to spread through the systems very quickly.
Loss of attitude reference, in IMC does tend to result in a very rapid, and catastrophic descent, often with structural failure prior to impact.
Purely speculative, obviously, but hey, it’s only youtube.
@@normannutbar424 This one is a mystery and might remain that way, at least for a while, because the NTSB decided they would not investigate it due to concerns with sending investigators to travel during the pandemic.
He didn't read back the altitude instruction given even when he was in contact so he was distracted or not comprehending.
I know you do just about everything VAS but if you could also state the time of day somewhere would be good. Thanks as always.
He does top left UTC time at the beginning of the video
It's in the top left corner
Just see the UTC clock
1526Z
VASAviation - ah right at the start. Apologies. Cheers.
Could someone kindly explain to me (someone with little knowledge of ATC:
1. why did ATC says at 1:50 "descend and maintain 8,000 ft"? Would this indicate that ATC wanted him to descend to 8,000ft starting at that time?
2. At 2:41, it looks like the plane is at 16,800 ft, but ATC tells him to maintain 10,000 ft. Am I misreading this? Was there something going wrong at this time, and ATC notice it?
3. Why did ATC ask "where are you headed"? Is it because the plane was over flying the airport runway, and he shouldn't be? Or was it the rate of descent of the plane that worried ATC?
Thank you.
1. Yes, but the controller also said they were going to have him fly a lap around the airport to give him more time to come down safely; seems like the pilot missed that and initiated a [much too] rapid descent trying to get to 8000 before trying to intercept the ILS
2. The controller was likely aware of the large rate of descent, and wanted to get him stabilized to shed speed; below 10,000 you have to be below 250 knots unless cleared to bust the speed limit. 10,000 is a common height for planes to hold during approach. The pilot also would have needed time to level out, which is why they didn't give him say 15,000 or 12,000
3. ATC saw the plane turning right on their scope when not instructed, as well as their rate of descent, and likely put it together that the pilot missed the instruction to fly a lap around the field. It is unclear though if the right turn was initiated by the pilot, because he was actually trying to go for the ILS, or if the right turn was an artifact of the steep dive, comments above have noted similar right turns in multiple TBM crashes, it is possible that it is easier to stall the right wing than the left wing on these aircraft, meaning when a stall occurs, it ALWAYS happens on the right first, making that wing start to drop, which is the same as banking the plane and initiating a turn.
Deep condolence from me 😢
Did that seem like suicide? Because how can he have radio failure at the same time as mechanical failure or spatial disorientation?
What? How can he? If he’s having radio failure he could be having other electrical failures. Could be many flight control problems. I’m not sure why from this, that you are jumping to that conclusion
@@damedusa5107 I didn't jump to a conclusion. I was a question.
For whatever reason hypoxia keeps coming to mind, although it really didn't sound like that was the case.
Hey there was a crash at KAPA on 10/2/2020 at about 10am? I was lined up for runway 17L in an archer when I heard a Mooney declare an emergency. Basically he didn't have an indication that his gear was down so he flew by the tower and asked the controllers to spot for him. The controller said his gear "appeared" to be down, so he tried to make the landing. I didn't see the landing personally, but I saw the aftermath as ground had us refile back in line as they had to shutdown the whole runway. From what I could tell, the plane most likely had the gear down, but the right main wasn't locked in position, therefore collapsing on landing.
Luckily no fire broke out and it seems like everyone was alright.
Do you know UTC and reg? What was your reg?
@@VASAviation Oh yeah my bad. Denver, Colorado, United States, about 16:00 UTC? Happened at Centennial Airport (KAPA). Tower: 118.9 Ground: 121.8
It's very sad... but clearly when he said everything is fine, yet no readback, and no explanation for coms failure, everything was not fine.
They have some sort of issues :( , i don't like the silencens :(
Pilot is not hand flying at 28000 feet. Perhaps the electrical issue with his radio eventually affected the autopilot. The pilot's tone sounded like he was dealing with a problem, despite his denial.
Wow, that's a strange case. Nordo, then the pilot sounds normal, then nordo and out of control.
Does one have any clues about the reason? A plane doesn‘t fall from the sky like that if the pilot just said „everything is fine“ before, does it?
Sounds like power glitch for me. Radio coming on and off intermittiently, pilot thinks its only the radio and says "everything is fine", then suddenly a short somewhere and since the plane is fly-by-wire (later models) it just dies and becomes uncontrollable despite having belt-driven alternator + battery as backup.
Possible they lost control of the aircraft due to engine failure or control issues
I suspect a loss of electric power. There is an alternate source with limited time as the primary source. What that fails everything is gone leading to loss of control by the pilot.
@@sebastiannielsen power glitch doesn't make the wings stop making lift
The NTSB investigation may or may not tell us more eventually, for now all we can do is guess.
Where did I read it was a 700 model ? I guess it was wrong info. It was a powerful engine that flew right into the ground. Such a shame. Poor people and their family. Bad enough to lose loved ones but that way is even worse.
Good evening from St John Parish, Louisiana 06 Oct 20.
I'm not 100% sure what I heard. Do I have this much correct?
#1: A long period of time where ATC could not reach the airplane on radio.
#2: Then the pilot speaks and says "everything is fine".
#3: Then a long period of time where ATC could not reach the pilot again.
#4: Then a weird right-hand turn.
#5: And altitude started to fall rapidly.
Did I miss something or get something wrong? If not, I would find it odd if the pilot was having radio or mechanical problems that he was aware of before he said "everything is fine" (or equivalent).
Which implies to me something the pilot was not aware of ... which implies low O2 to me. However, if that's the reason for all that happened, the pilot sounded much more alert and normal when he said "everything is fine" (or equivalent). But ... I can't think of anything else that makes sense.
If the pilot had any hint that he was having O2 problems, I would have expected him to put his airplane on autopilot with slow descent as a precaution. But apparently he didn't, so that adds to the confusion or uncertainty for me. Very odd indeed. I guess it could have been a health issue, and he did not want to admit this on the radio and thereby risk having his medical pulled.
RIP * 2.
It is an unfortunate fact that O2 depletion will also reduce/eliminate your ability to notice your symptoms of O2 depletion.
But O2 depletion doesn't make a lot of sense here.
The speech is not slurred as expected.
No muffled sound of a mask.
I'm not thinking loss of pressure or O2 starvation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash
Looks like he had presence of mind to put transponder on the No Radio setting. (or did ATC flag the transponder code he was using?)
Got in range of destination and dialed the local and got contact back? Or got closer to the ATC and thus regained voice radio?
Started the descent following directions then suddenly high speed descent and a turn. That looks to me like a heart attack and slumping onto the column.
What happened here?
bummer. rip.
Is it just me or does the TBM seem to be involved with quite a few fatal crashes and general aviation pilots?
Their checkbooks kill them.
It is why an investigation is needed besides eliminating foul play/sabotage.
@@linanicolia1363 isn't that a given for the NTSB and fatal collisions
Is FL 28 high for a relatively short flight?
No, it's OK
VASAviation - Appreciate the reply.
FL 280 would be normal en-route altitude for this flight. FL 280 is NOT normal 30 mi from destination airport. His descent should have started somewhere around Syracuse/Rochester... - waw -
The pilot sounded as if he was out of breath or struggling with something. Wonder if he was having a medical episode or lack of o2 or high co2 for some reason.
I didn't get that impression at all, he sounded alert and in control when the radio worked. He made sensible requests and acknowledged atc comms quickly.
@@homomorphic Listen at 1:57, the way he responds is odd to me, it could only be due to stress, but still weird
@@gaberthesnipergaming8335 what is weird about responding "yes sir, everything's fine" immediately to the controllers enquiry as to whether everything is OK?
He'd previously acknowledged that he'd had communication issues with Boston which points to a legitimate radio failure.
@@gaberthesnipergaming8335 Stressed?
I'm honestly not sure.
Focused and attentive?
Also not sure. And I'll explain what makes me draw that conclusion.
He was responding to audio with seemingly perfect competance.
However, that does not mean full sensory competance.
I don't know if this happens to other people. But when I get (what i can only assume is) dangerously dehydrated, i start experiencing a weird form of light-headedness. It mainly messed with my eyes, and i started feeling like the world was shifting around me. I did not feel sick to my stomach. But i did start experiencing a cold center-chest and what felt like heart palpitations, though my pulse was perfectly normal.
I never lost my sense of balance. And i did not at all lose my ability to communicate. Even a tinge. However, i had a *very* hard time focusing on something and staying psychologically oriented.
It was like dizziness but only on the eyes. Ive only ever experienced it once but long story short after 2 IVs of water i was back to normal.
I wonder if something like that was happening to this man... *Dehydration*
@@homomorphic Listen at the tone of voice, compared to how he was responding earlier, he sounds different, but then again it might just be me
A group of us here at BUF had theorized that the TBM may have lost pressurization causing hypoxia and eventually slumped over into the controls, causing the sharp turn and subsequent dive... We came to that conclusion due to the aircraft still flying at 19,000 feet over Batavia... usually aircraft coming into KBUF are under or around 10,000ft at that point if they're landing on Runway 23... but if he was able to make some attempt at contact with BUF Approach... that would almost completely throw out the hypoxia theory unless he was going in and out of consciousness...
sounds like a valid theory.
id like to hear what steveo has to say
start practicing with psychics/mediums and remote viewers. It is do-able; maybe not right now but in a few days.
@Bagheera bah.....humbug.
@@linanicolia1363 You negative nini...
@@linanicolia1363 He is talking about steveo1kinevo . TH-camr who flies a TBM
@@segredosdotiosam9989 But Steveo is a professional pilot, not a part time pilot.
This is near me. When did this happen?!
Not that I am an expert, but a plane being at 28,000 feet when it is supposed to land at an airport that less than 30 miles away is unusual. As a person who has flown into and out of Buffalo Niagara (Buf) Airport, the descent usually begins 15 to 20 minutes prior to landing (though jets travel faster than propeller driven small aircraft).
Unusual but not difficult for the controller. All that’s needed is to give the pilot “a ride”. Just like the BUF controller was planning overfly the airport and a left 270 for the left downwind. It is easy as long as there isn’t any weather or a high level of traffic density.
Spacial Awareness comes to mind.
The loss thereof.
You've got to trust your autopilot
What was the cause of the crash?
Condolences to his family, may they Rest In Peace. Hope the ATC is ok :(
It appears he lost radio contact for a while, contacted the airport when he got close. The Airport told him to go from FL280 to 8000' and it appears as if he attempted (probably in error of settings of autopilot) to descend very quickly to go straight into the airport, instead of missing the airport and descending at a reasonable rate.
The airplane went overspeed and control could not be maintained.
What caused him to ask if everything was ok?
Long radio silence
@@phapnui ahh, makes sense
Probably because he squawked 7600
@@Biggunkief I wasn't clear on whether the pilot squawked 76 or if that was ATC tagging them
not getting a reply is the first clue.
So sad. ☹️
Just my 2 cents. It would appear that he missed his handoff. Then spent too much time and effort trying to resolve that issue delaying his desent. Now rattled after recontacting ATC accepted a steep desent clearance that looks like it turned into a spiral that blew through Vne with the ultimate bad ending.
There was no handoff
Any idea then why he didn't follow procedures for lost communications?
Sad story and the lose of life. it looked like he was over his head.
Why’s that? You have no idea what happened.
his last response sounds groggy..he had to have passed out ..dehydration etc...
Descent into a death spiral? Was he in hard IFR and out of practice or was it a failure? It would be really interesting to find out. He was certainly very short on his responses, I've had ATC ask me a couple times if everything was alright during some "sporty" instrument approaches before. Thankfully I was proficient enough to execute them without incident.
I'd have thought you'd fly a TBM on auto pilot until final, especially as a single pilot, in IMC. Something really strange was going on here.
@@realulli agree ifr fly autopilot and this kind of plane will land by itself. Seems hypoxia or electrical failure or both
I wonder why he asked if he was okay. Mist have suspected something
Why wouldn’t he ask? They couldn’t communicate with him for quite a while, with no reason actually stated.
yup, looks like medical episode, spatial disorientation, or both - medical contributed to SD, perhaps.
Sorry for all on board, family and involved.
e ski maybe hypoxia? Problems started at 28k.
@@joelbosso1331 thought in 2mn would be passed out
@@joelbosso1331 plausible. very possible, has happened before. Didn't get a chance to see weather conditions; i'm still thinking medical episode...but thats highly speculative..
@@jeanpaulbuffon1655 time of useful consciousness varies in individual and altitude...
I'm not a pilot and don't have any expertise, so please excuse this question if it is dumb. How could it be spatial disorientation if he is IFR?
*The loss in comms & the ATC guy having some sort of 'sense' asking "Is everything alright up there" are both curious happenings (no idea what if anything they meant). I am upstate NY not terribly far from the incident (about and hour) and I can say that it is this week that I've had first sightings of migrating geese this season. Perhaps the comms/ATC sense are unrelated to the event and it was a sudden goose strike w/loss of control. Anyway, thought I'd mention that geese, in the relative area, are as of this week migrating in large flocks.*