Aluminum Feeds & Speeds: Testing Lathe Insert! WW148
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2017
- Testing 2024, 6061, and 7075 Aluminum with a CCGT Lathe insert to analyze different depths of cut and speeds in order to maximize tool life, material remove and ensure good chip formation!
Thanks to Paul from Debolt Machine: bit.ly/2iFGiKr
Lathe Insert: bit.ly/2r8zWYr
Slow Motion Camera: amzn.to/2rS3RVN
Music: Bar Crawl - JR Tundra • Bar Crawl - JR Tundra
SFX: PLOP - Sound Effects from: SoundClips by / soundbankhd 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
John, this is a good guy to hang out with! Make him all the 5axis CNC milled goodies he can stand!
Great discussion/instruction/demonstration......taught me so much! Thanks to Paul for his time and to you John for sharing!
Most informative video I have seen in very long time! Thank you! Thank you!
This is one of the best chip formation videos that I have seen so far. Thank you John.
The knowledge from Mr. Debolt is great! thanks John and Mr. Debolt.
This guy knows his business. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to show us some tips and tricks for getting better results.
Hello John this video transported me to my years in technical school. Paul reminded me of my teacher Mr. Castiglione, and I thank him for all he thought me, and for a good, not grate 44 minutes. Keep up the good work I know People watch you all the way down in Argentina and Uruguay.
I am new to vids like these. Real world working opinions. I like it when people are allowed to say, "I prefer to do it this way for this project." There is no beating of the chest trying to put other's choices down. I learned a great deal listening to what to look out for and how to correct simple issues. Keep it up.
Perhaps one of the most useful videos to me you've done so far. Thank you!
Thank you John and Paul! Really great video! This hit on a subject that I've been hoping to see forever that seems to never get covered, which is the properties, machinability and characteristics of different types and grades of materials, also where and why to use them on practical projects. A guy could make a channel on just that one subject alone I believe. Its amazing how much you can learn in just 40 edited mins from someone like Paul if you really listen. Man I wish we could talk Paul into starting a channel! He's obviously a great teacher and it would be so great to have one more guy like Tom, Robin and Abom to cover more of the advanced topics of manual machining and it sounds like Paul could also cover some more advanced CNC topics which are so far and few between on YT, especially CNC lathe. Thanks again guys, really enjoyed it.
that guy is an amazing teacher a d wealth of knowledge. I like the way he ask a question to make you think of why something was happening or designed a certain way.
great video
Again, again a great video, in fact one of the best along with the steel speeds and feeds. Very good educational content. Thank you both.
That's some really useful info John and Paul, thanks for sharing!
Excellent video John with good content that can help folks think about inserts. Thanks for doing it. For clarity, the insert is not coated.
Thanks a lot for these informative videos! I really appreciate the work you're doing. Keep it up!! Best wishes!!
Thanks John! This will def help me out with that new toy!
Love that guy, what a cool a good dude, bet he is an amazing teacher at the school too.
Best chip breaker video! You changed my life dude!
Most interesting info on speeds & feeds for turning aluminum! I had gotten advice from numerous "machinists" (with opposite opinions) but never could get their advice to perform as claimed.
On my small Lathe (12X36) I will try some of Paul's suggestions scaled down to the capacity of my lathe and see how things work.
Thanks for sharing!
informative, really enjoyed the vid, thanks to you and Paul.
wow that really simplified things to a level I could understandthanks for taking the time to make this
Very interesting and, best of all, very educational. Thanks for sharing, John.
Some great info on chip control/breaking with the reasons why and how SF/M and DoC effect it.
Neat bit of editing you pulled off there with the material on the roughing pass.
Very interesting. Learned a lot about chips and horsepower. I didn't know about needing more HP for carbide and larger nose radius.
paul thank u for sharing your knowledge
ur the type of person u can realy learn something from
greatly apriciated
Great video John! One of my favorites yet. And I'm not even much of a lathe guy either.
Something about a sharp tool cutting through metal sounds so satisfying
One of your best and MOST informative... What a guy to have as a "consultant" What John 47 Said also....!
Great video John! I just wish you had shown a recipe for better surface finish on 6061. I'm trying to make small parts on my Tormach 15L, so a .1 DOC is out of the question.
Love me sine chip control! Speaking of which you ever try that positive insert I gave you on your Tormach lathe? The other advantage of using the 120deg side on the diamond shaped inserts is the radius is huge and it will really take a pounding, perfect for roughing or hard intermittent cuts.
This was super informative. Thanks!
really good video I am just learning would like to see video with info like this one but show what you do when you get down and start your finish cuts what to do on feeds and speeds then
beautiful hands on teaching through trial
For my threading on my 14x40 atlas lathe, my inserts (seko) i feed straight in, just take small cuts on my small lathe that 3-10 thou per pass.
Great video! Wondering what a higher SFM (more like 1800 or so) and lower feed rate would produce. That would also depend on the max RPM of the lathe though.
Very nice and informative video!
Can I say I was surprised that the indexing he did was the side of the holder and not the tip of the tool. Repeatable DOC seems just as important (if not more so) than simply being perpendicular to the work.
On another note, when I need to turn a tube, I make sure I have a stub turned to it's inside diameter to make support when I clamp down on the tube. No deformation at all.
Great video guys!
This was a really neat show!! I enjoyed listening to what he had to say, smart guy! Just a bummer, 99.99% of this info doesn't help me on my little 7/8th HP lathe, lol... Really, it does, Just makes me desire a larger machine, So I can turn steel like the big boys can... The past several video have been super informative. Thank you and all that are involved to allow this to happen, for the little guys like myself. Thank you, Drew
Another great video, thanks John.
You mentioned you only work in 6061 and are not very familiar with 2024 or 7075. Here's my $.02 on aluminum alloy selection:
6061:
Pros: *Low cost *Availability-lots of sizes from suppliers everywhere *Good corrosion resistance *Welds well *Anodizes well
Cons: Moderate strength- 35 to 40 Ksi yield strength.
7075:
Pros: High strength- 75-80Ksi yield strength.
Cons: *Roughly 2X the cost of 6061, fewer sizes available from fewer suppliers. *Doesn't weld as well as 6061.
2024:
Pros: *Medium strength, Yield strength is 40-50 Ksi *Good strength at elevated temperatures, above 300 degrees F the strength is higher than 7075. *Good fatigue strength for applications where the load is cycled on/off repeatedly.
Cons: *Roughly 2X the cost of 6061, fewer sizes available from fewer suppliers. *Doesn't weld as well as 6061.
In summary: If the part needs to be really strong use 7075, if it needs to operate at higher temperatures or is subjected to high cyclic loads use 2024. Everything else use 6061.
I consider 6061 to be the "pot metal" of the aluminum world.
Basically used for anything that needs to look pretty but has no other real functionality. It does buff up pretty but that's about it.
Occams Sawzall ya I would agree, its the general go to for basic things that you need aluminum for but are not picky on any specific qualities
"They're called bird's nests."
"Oh, I'm familiar with the term."
Hahaha
We call them Brillo Heads.
Boy Paul is a wealth of knowledge. I wish he lived near me.
Hey John, great video. This guy is the real deal, I felt like I learned a mountain of information just from you guys shootin the shit. Awesome! Just opened the mailbox, beautiful job on the mini pallet. I'm afraid to scratch it.
Great video! A LOT of valuable info from someone who sure knows their stuff. My only grip is that you stated you hoped what we got from this video was setup, understanding and reading the chip which I think I did (I have to watch it again and put it to use) BUT I got a lot of doubt that if I don't have a 20"x60" or 14"x40" and a lot of torque and rigidity, I am not gonna be able to make the proper chips. You said we would use this info and it would relate to if we had as small as a Sherline to as big as a Monarch but thats not what I got from it.
Great video & info.
Great timing, I am working on tuning my speeds and feeds on my first product on the CNC lathe. I switched to 2024 because of issues I had around deep drilling small diameters where the bit was gumming up. 2024 fixed that. I found I can not buy 1" or 1.5" thick walled tube, I can only find solid 2024. I don't think 2024 is easy to weld as 6016. 7075 does weld and machine nice but even pricier. I am still sorting out what aluminum's welds, which anodize and which don't, which has better properties for different applications etc.
What about small cuts with sharp radius features, how do you eliminate birds nesting on those finer profiles etc? I have 11 HP and 6000 RPM with flood coolant to work with, not sure which knob to turn yet for those situations.
Thanks John (and Paul) I learned a lot agian. Mainly that my lathe is not powerfull enough for the stuff I want to do! You are talking about 10 or 15 hp (7,5/12Kw) I have a measly 0.25Kw or 0.33 Hp
Oh well, that one can be put on the wishlist for the future!
Muito bom o seu trabalho ,Awesome
very informative, thank you
Seems like when I'm ever curious about something you have a video on it.
Well spoken wealth of knowledge.
I hope you do a lathe video with Abom or a video in general
SFM is wrong on the second cut because the diameter changed :P Most CNC lathes have a constant surface footage setting which allows you to set your desired SFM and maximum RPM and it will automatically adjust the RPM (up to your specified max) to match the SFM as the diameter changes. 785 SFM is actually a bit slow for carbide in aluminum. 1000 is my baseline going up with higher quality inserts. I would regularly run a 2" bar of 6061 at 3000 RPM roughing which is 1570 SFM. We limited our ST-20Y to 3000 RPM because 4k on an 8" 3 jaw is terrifying especially if you look at the clamping pressure chart.
Great video as usual! :)
Agreed, I will often run at around 2000 SFM in aluminum, provided there is enough cooling to limit expansion, and run a high DOC with a Finer feed. By using tools intended for .010 feed and a .250-.500 (closer to .500 in aluminum) radial cut, I get a smoother finish and keep my removal rate high with the deep cut. Depending on the lathe, you can also drop the RPM if you have to get more mechanical reduction and more torque, which lets you take a deeper at the expense of high SFM.
Wow... so much valuable information about inserts and aluminium (
Great video
Ha! Alro is my supplier for all my plastic and stainless plates. Good people.
Good information. I have a 7.5hp lathe, I’m struggling with long strings. I’ll increase feed. I’ve been going 600 RPM, 3.5” 6061 with a wimpy .012” feed.
We are going to change that!
I need to find the right insert too.
A lot to this stuff
Thanks John.
I suggest an iscar cnmg I’ve found that it doesn’t take much to get them to chip some 6061 GOOOOOOD
aluminum feed and speed: fast as she goes and fast as she goes ;-)
Great video, for us home gamers with 1-2 hp lathes, what should be our take away? Which material would be best, which insert, etc?
Adventures in Fabrication
Id be using inserts with the smallest nose, that causes less feed pressure.
I use vnmg 431 and dnmg.
I would tend to suggest the use of HSS ground tooling rather than carbide for a hobby lathe, as you don't have the RPMs, horse power, or machine rigidity to get into the efficient cutting range for carbide. You will just end up with either birds nests, or metal dust, instead of properly formed chips.
Thanks
please do this for steel!
great!
This is my favourite video of yours so far! Would love more in-depth studies with experts like Paul. But please get some better mics! Or even hire a sound guy with a boom.
really cool and informitive video, you should make steel or hard metal feeds and speeds vid. thanks!
We are! More of that stuff coming at www.nyccnc.com/speeds-feeds/
i always use a small radius for a nice finish (15 radius for finish)and (30 radius for roughing).On any material thats pretty standard -at least on a cnc it it is.
Much appreciated.
You mentioned that Brian Block uses a different tool holder that uses all 4 edges of the insert. I can't find that youtube vid. Can you please show us the link? Thanks in advance
Lessons learned: Don't eat a doughnut while filming.
We did a study with a rocket powered cutting edge to determine how fast you can cut aluminum. Turns out you can go super fast in aluminum, basically as fast as you want. The doc was very thin mind you.
in my opinion people dont talk enough about 6 yaw chucks. they have the easy chucking of a 3 yaw but with the same or more holding power than a 4 yaw.
24:00 = GOLD !!!!!
John, You should probably point out some other important differences in 2024, 7075, and 6061. There are different tempers of each one that greatly influences their mechanical and machining characteristics. 7075 is the strongest (highest tensile strength), but also more brittle and can't be welded. You might be able to get a weld bead to form, but it will most certainly fail under stress. Be sure you select the grades for the job and not just how easy they machine.
Good information, by the time you get to those last cuts you are nowhere near 785 sf since rpm never changed. Only the first pass was 785 then it declines rapidly, i know you know this but others may not.
One thing they didn't discuss was the effect of coatings on the tool. Any coating that contains aluminum (Aluminum Titanium Nitride (AlTiN) or Titanium Aluminum Nitride (TiAlN) will have issues with aluminum welding to the cutting surface. Titanium Diboride is the ideal coating for aluminum it has a very low affinity for aluminum.
so hes saying the glass scales for the DRO are getting in the way of capacity, plus those are expensive...
wonder if it would be possible to make a DRO that used a laser array projected from above the head stock to measure a reflector placed on the tool post? interesting idea, would be cheaper if it could be accurate enough.
X axis it wouldnt affect.
On cross slide and tail stock it wil get in the way at best. There are alternative mountings so far only ever seen it done correct twice and recent in the last two weeks. What you do see 99.99% of the time are people just fitting them for ease and not for usage!
You may have forgot the qualichem videos in the cards.
He will put them in, he may have to do it after the vid is uploaded as nobody has them up on a brand new vids. It's also possible the vid he was talking about isn't even out yet.
On a side note, 2024 aluminum in its annealed state is stronger than annealed 6061.
When it comes to aluminum, I'm a believer that it's best to just machine it and run it!
This video doesn't have enough likes or views!
I also watched the one for steel too.. I'd have liked to see more of how the speed affects the chip, because especially for people with smaller lathes, if you can slow it down a little you can increase the feed.
My thinking when I'm getting a birdsnest is it's too hot.. Hot material is more flexible than cold material.. How do you reduce the heat? a slower speed will do it, a faster feed puts the same heat into a heavier chip (a bit cooler) and a deeper DOC does it a little bit as well, though that chipbreaking effect comes more from the insert geometry
YESSSSSS. I finally got here early lol
Shout out for the great videos John, keep em coming!
Why do people say things like this and "first"? Is there some prize or reward for watching immediately I'm not privy to? If so please let know I want in on the loot.
Steve just Steve
I wonder that too. I've never been first so I dunno about the prize either... maybe these are the people who actually win that new iPhone the flashy adverts always tell me I have a chance to win...
In all honesty, I primarily did it because in a few hours this place was bound to be full of comments and what not and by then, and all you have to do is read them to know what the videos about. "Don't read em then." I'm just another human who can't help but to read em.
Uh....huh?
+Occams Sawzall +Steve just Steve
It's one of those things on the internet that just, is. People do it to troll, to feel like they are important, because they have never been a top post, they find it funny, etc etc... I wouldn't over think.
I’ve never machined aluminium in my life until last year, and now I’m doing heaps of it for one customer, and man it’s hard to get it looking good compared with steel and stainless.
It would be great to see a comparison video on speeds and feeds for steel on the same lathe at Debolt :-)
NYC CNC
Good spread of steels would be 1018, 4140, and 17-4 PH.
Those are the 3 most common people would run across. Along with 304 and 316 stainless.
NYC CNC well I've noticed we seem to use different grades of steel here in the UK. .but free cutting steel is very popular for turning..some of our popular steel grades are En3B En8 En1A, En1A leaded with some lead content also.
Arrow Racing Products
What standard is that? None of those are on any of my conversion charts 😆
What country are you from?
Uk ;-)
www.steelexpress.co.uk/engineeringsteel/index.html
what is the purpose of a seat under the insert? #beginner
Oh my dear John, I fodere you out, can you break plastic chips ...? Because this is rocket sicence.... !!!Good luck wish you Paul from Germany :D
It really depends on the Plastic. PMMA is super easy to break but POM or PA no chance. Those you just have to manage the chipstream.
Der Wissenskiosk
Yes you can. Plastic tends to function opposite of metals when cutting though. You want to minimize the amount of heat generated in the chip. When it heats, it quickly melts and becomes stringy.
I find myself around mild steel speeds and feeds for most plastics.
After successfully getting the chips to look like flat spaghetti, intermittent feed is the way to go. You have to avoid rat's nests. DNMG helps with keeping the chips from rubbing against the part.
how come never considered the rpm?
put to a cnc lathe i do 4mm cut deapth (8mm diameter)
3000rpm
cuttingfeed 360 and fees 0.35mm per turn with a nose radius of 0.8😉 no prob😊
John, you mention the Lathe size [20 x 60] but never say what brand it is, would you post that please?
It ´s written in pretty big letters on the Machine.
It's a Birmingham, says so right on the side.
if I have tons of metal removal I can get 10-30x the tool life using coolant on any material.
I ONLY buy inserts on ebay. It's a phase, I'm sure but I'm liking the performance and price quite a bit
People say that 6061 is aerospace grade aluminum... The truth is that about the only place on an airplane that 6061 is used is in lavs and galleys... The properties are horrible... 7050 and 7075 has mechanical properties and yield strength compairible to steel with a way better strength to weight ratio. Any machined structural part made from aluminum in aerospace will be 7050 or 7075. 2024 is used mostly for sheet products, and only occasionally machined (In Aero).
31:13, 31:28 :D
Mmmhmmm!
I never see 6061 or 2024. 7075 is more common for aircraft stuff I guess.
Can I use my GI Bill to take his class? I would drain that brain of everything it had to offer. It is old school guys like him that you want to learn from.
BTW, you know you are in a true shop when the plan for days jobs is being discuss over donuts and one guy is in bib overalls (so comfy!!!).
om nom...
The sound is on some points way to high...
2011 aluminum is even easier cutting... but it's leaded. It's rated at 800 fpm with HSS and can be cut at 2000+ fpm with carbide.
Yep... about 0.4% lead. Machines like a dream with none of the problems you had in the video. It was made for automatic screw machines which are even pickier about stringy chips than CNC or manual machines. It's not as common as an alloy as it used to be. It's an alloy related to 2024 but with lead and less Copper.
NYC CNC theres lots of different alloy types.
It gets pretty cool once you can understand the metallurgy behind different materials.
Like the 16 or so types of stainless steel that I know of.
Some alloy elements will take heat without softening, others allow impact resistance, some allow you to machine it, or im sure you know, anodized parts can be affected on the alloy with aluminum.
This is all the welding part, like 5356 filler vs 4043 filler material to get tensile strength vs an even anodizing coating
Or stainless with the 308, 308L 309, 316 and 316L fillers that are common.
There are hundreds of different stainless steels. The most common can be maybe 20 different alloys. Most of the others are used for specialized purposes.... There are even leaded stainless steels...
just eatin a donut y'all :)
I've tried the 29 degree and straight in method. Can't see any advantage to 29 degree. More fooling around, waste of time. I don't understand the why. If you had a perfect 30 degree, maybe. At 29+- the back side is probably not going to be cutting if the tool isn't absolutely sharp. For sure not with carbide. That means it will be rubbing more than cutting, heating, dulling. Nice lathe! 500rpm max with that 4 jaw?? That means if he is turning smaller diameter, feeds have to get much faster to maintain chip load so they will break.
16:00 isnt this very dangerous? look at the handle
ipadize its only feed? What could go wrong
handle grabbing the pocket of your pants, sure you will stop the feed with the hand that is the control, but not the most fun thing to happen anyway, maybe this machine has a slip clutch somewhere in there for safety, but my 1957 USSR made milling machine doesn't, learned to be really careful engaging power feeds on that one the hard way...
So I decided to do the calculations on how fast I need to turn for my 30mm round bar.
Let's say it's about 1.5x faster than my hobby lathe's top gear.
Ouch
never eat on camera. never
such a waste of time clocking that tool in
Man I wish you spoke english... 21 though, 5 thou... FFS.... this is the 21st century!!!