In firearms people often say a .22 or 380 is ineffective ... but you can never find anyone willing to stand in front of either and take a shot to certain parts of the body
.380 is actually incredibly effective with hollowpoints, that said I still prefer 9mm but I am smart enough to know .380 isn't low powered. A bullet is a bullet; after all.
@@PigeonHoot My favorite is a .22 mag. hollow point, semi-copper clad. Four of them fit in my ol' Freedom Arms pocket derringer-type thingie. It's been my "last ditch" for more than 40 years now. Obviously, it's a "neck and belly" gun. Works best up close and personal.
As a rapier fanatic i cannot express how necessary this video is. Specially to people who treat it as a modern epee and make big sweeping parries that are able to block a wild thrust but leave the fencer open for a cut or a disengagement from a more experienced fencer. It saddens me that i have met some rapier "teachers" who did not cared about getting hit by a cut since they believed the blade was unable to cut, even though the old masters teach proper cutting techniques. I think spanish rapier students can get this concept faster than students of italian rapier, don't really know why. I had to get direct access to the italian manuals to understand that rapiers are not "typical" and have a really complete system. Your video might help a lot of people m8. Thanks!
Ohship former sip These are two very different styles of fighting. The Spanish seem to be more open about dynamic fighting, while the Italians seem to have forgotten it. Whether this is through evolution of the form, or evolution of the attitude is unknown, at least to me. There may be clearer answers, but unfortunately I do not have them.
I was taught to fight with a rapier under the school of he Spanish Sword, and it is definitely a cutting weapon. It may not be a hacking weapon, but it will definitely deliver nasty cuts. A good example is the rapier master depicted in Rob Roy, and the kinds of damage he delivers with his rapier. Tho he is using a sort of wimpy rapier. th-cam.com/video/ERmM5l2ceoY/w-d-xo.html
Ohship former sip some rapiers can cut. I believe historical examples were designed for both but primarily cutting th-cam.com/video/WM1_ITty-ZI/w-d-xo.html
I blame this on the trend that focuses on being the most right and trying to force things into black and white roles. Just because something is not optimized to perform a role does not mean it can't fulfill that role.
This is pretty much exactly the case. This "trend" is also dumb because suprising your opponent with something he doesn't expect you to do is a very good way to win. Being narrow minded is the worst thing you can be as a fighter. Edit: Suprising someone with something he doesn't expect.. yea, well how else could you suprise someone.. dumb me. >.>
Completely agree. This concept particularly pisses me off in RPGs and MMO's where you're forced into an "optimized" class that can't cover any of its weak spots.
Sideswords, rapiers, broadswords and smallswords. Variations of the same kind of sword. A cut to the face or throat would be quite dangerous for the recipient.
Whole different ball game when you factor in the types of armors that they wore. Those cuts or thrusts won't mean anything depending on which type of armor thats being used.
To be fair, none of them could cut through plate and most could hit unarmoured areas against a partially armoured opponent. VS armour I would recommend a billhook, halberd or at least a longsword. All but the broadswords were often used in civilian life and the broadswords where from a time where even the heavy cavalry rarely had more than a cuirass.
angelowl89 The thing is, they were civilian weapons. Rapiers were good for thrusting through gaps in plate armour, even covered in mail, but it wasn't used for that much after guns took power. You wouldn't go into a battle with a backsword or rapier ready to cut a knight or whatnot because they were designed to stab people in no armour or cut them.
vs armor, don't use a billhook or a longsword. Using a halberd with a hammer or pick, a warhammer or mace however, would be quite smart. Blunt force is the key to rattling an armored opponent. (I'm assuming we're talking about renaissance plate armor)
The last official "sword challenge" Between two gentlemen happened in france, with rapiers and the fight was stopped because one of the guys had two DEEP CUTS. And wasn't able to fight anymore.
"You say rapiers can't cut as if you dictate the blade your opponent uses" is a wonderful argument that everyone needs to hear, and not just about this topic, either!
Similar shit with early medieval swords and the misconception that they were meant only for cutting, while some of them actually have quite pointy ends. And even if they don't, hell what is stoping me from thrusting?
This annoys me to no end in games like Dungeons & Dragons. Why can't I just stab things with it? Why is it blunted and why can't a half decent swordsmith sharpen the point?
Haha who needs a swordsmith when every sane person with a sword would have a sharpening stone, or could find one in a river, (if its just a bit blunt).
Same applies to curved swords actually. Yes, inefficent and in some cases -depending on sword type the curve can be way too big that you need to make a really odd movement with your arm (forward-angled for example). But look at damn messer or kilij or sabre or yatagan or shashqua, those can poke nicely if you want it!
Well, one thing you might want to consider is if the structure of the blade will withstand thrusting and if the material you're thrusting into risks breaking the tip off of your blade or even breaking it at the foible or the fuller. Despite what he's saying about rapiers, all swords are not the same and some are made to stand up better to different uses than others. Steel quality and design dictate heavily as to how the sword will hold up to certain kinds of abuse. Will the sword hold up to weapon-weapon contact, will it pierce armor, will the tip break easily when trying to pierce mail, will it stand up to shield blocking, is it made to be most effective at slicing the way a katana is, etc. etc. Even early European blades were varied and were designed with certain uses over others in mind, that's why there's different kinds.
@@irontemplar6222 yeah there is, multiple weapons are versitile and can do both or give its damage (if its unsuited) as a different dice role in the weapons list) say, 1D8 piercing, 1D4 slashing or 1D6
@@elgostineVersitile just means wielding it with two hands, and it goes up a damage die. Longsword goes from 1d8 slashing to 1d10 slashing their is no trait in base D&D that convays what you mean.
@@elgostine not I base d&d as far as I remmber. Their are weapons that you can use Dex or strength, but nothing that changes the damage type from one to the other
As someone who has accidentally cut himself on a rapier, I can say with certainty that rapiers can indeed cut. Just because it's good at thrusting doesn't mean that blade is dull.
Interesting talk. Matt Easton also called rapiers cut and thrust swords. In his opinion, there might be better cutters, but the rapier still is capable to cut. I guess the teachers sometimes know it best :)
Rapiers aren't sabres, but hey ARE sharp. Rapier tactics employ DRAWING CUTS, as opposed to 'slicing' or 'slashing'. The blade is 39 - 45" in length. If you can PULL that back across an opponent after a parry... It can unzip something quite nicely.
@Vapor do you have some kind of evidence of this? I am trying to learn a lot about swords and these kind of swords are really interesting so If you could share a few sources with me I would really appreciate it.
Thanks for this video! Rapiers seem to be really misunderstood swords. Something that I think would help people's understanding is if there were more test cutting videos with high quality rapier reproductions. There are few videos of sharp rapiers in use at all, and in many of those only thrusts are demonstrated.
This is spot on. I've been telling people this, and having it fall on deaf ears for years now. What really demonstrates it for me is to show the collection of rapiers in the Army Museum in Paris. All from around the same period, all VERY different in size and shape of the blade, all classified as just 'sword.'
Excellent and perfect narrative. Totally right on about rapier and "sword" classification and use. Positioning and timing is always key. If you position yourself corretly and time it perfectly you can kill somebody with a razor blade even if they're carrying a broadsword
Really good breakdown. How you use what you are using makes a lot of real world sense. Good arguement angle about gettng past limiting how I think about any one blade and how it may be used.
Great video and very well done agreed on cutting and range of motions makes a difference and if it is possible to do wile in combat due to your opponents action.
Yes older style Rapiers can cut, while not particularly meant for cutting many of the older ones technically could primarily a stabbing weapon but still able to cut to a degree. Love the video though ^^ I just had to give a answer to the obvious rhetorical question though ^^. A bit of dry humor though, next people will be saying a katana can't thrust lol.
one thing i'd note and i suspect you'd agree is that, while all swords that do small motion cuts will cut weaker than big cuts, i suspect that due to the fact rapiers usually have a lot less tip and blade mass than say,, a dussak that smaller motion is going to ensure that those cuts will still be weaker since they compromise much more heavily in favour of thrusting
Sure they can cut, just not as well as a sword that is optimized for cutting because they are for thrusting. Rapiers are optimized for thrust and length because that is what was useful for fighters at the time/place of use. Something like a katana can cut better, but can't thrust as well and has shorter reach. Against armor, I'd rather have a rapier than a katana because cutting though steel with steel is a waste of time and effort. Its about the right weapon for the right job. (And no, before anyone makes claims, a katana cannot cut through plate armor. Don't trust anime)
Tbh, I still wouldn't take a rapier against plate. I'd take something like a spear, ax or the mix between the two being a Halberd, or even a mace despite my distaste for them. The amount of force you can generate with a light one handed sword is somewhat limited, so you'd need a ton of precision to hit the weak points or really put your weight behind the blow with a rapier to properly punch through plate. Although I do agree, a rapier is much better against plate than a katana, and this is coming from a katana guy.
Arcus Diabolus You’ll never punch through plate with any weapon, besides the polearm and maces. The benefit of long rapiers against plate is that you can rely on the blade to skate across the surface and slip between the joints. The chain mail isn’t really a problem as the rapier is optimized to break the ringlets, and pierce the flesh beneath.
I would take a katana any day against a rapier if I was going against someone in plate harness, rapiers are too long and plate harness to good for the rapier to be effective. Rapiers were meant to be used against people wearing cloth armor.... They were made during the renaissance, the late end of the renaissance when people weren't wearing plate harness anymore. Of course I would prefer a nice roundel dagger, or perhaps a trefoil blade over either of those (roundel dagger for getting close and stabbing thru a weak point, upward into the neck, thru the armpits, groin, or the visor.. The Trefoil blade, cuz those can thrust well. At Everyone THe purpose of mace and polearms is not to punch thru armor as good luck against gothic plate harness. THe purpose of polearmors and maces is you hit them and you hurt them thru the armor due to the shear amount of force you transfer, rattling their brain against their head, shattering ribs etc... You don't actually break the armor though. The only way to really do that is with a 1000+ pound horse and a lance.
@Anti-Federalist 1776 Who said anything about using the katana as a hammer? I would half sword it and go through the the armpits, elbows, and groin, as a rapier is a little on the long-side for half-swording. Its also a little too thin to properly halfsword. A katana can go through mail with the thrust. While I will give you that you "can" pierce gothic armor using the spiky bit, I think you are underestimating how much harder it is to go straight through the plate when someone is wearing and moving around in the thing, and it takes more then one solid wack in the same place to get anywhere. But killing someone by slamming their brain against the back of the skull? way easier to manage.
In Spanish destreza you mostly do cut (hands and arms) and only stab if you see a clear opening to the throat, face etc. Yet you usually reach the position to use the thrust by using the blade to parry your oponents blade to one side and even grab his wrist/arm to force an opening. So of course there made to cut.
I like your point that not all swords were the same length, and that the manuals covered what to do in all the combinations of cases. It's like boxing a shorter/taller opponent, there's tricks for both sides and things that generally happen. It's cool they covered it in melee to. The idea of "perfect blade length" is a lot like barrel length in firearms. People debate endlessly about which is the best trade off, optimum, why, etc. I think it's important to know how to use them all, so one can make the most informed choice for themselves and know how they're used by others plus be able to use "battlefield pickups" if SHTF. I've found you can tell a lot about someone by what they consider to be the "best," and especially why they think that it is. And or by what they prefer.
Many examples of rapiers or rapier-like swords, such as Hernan Cortes' Espada Ropera, are great for cutting as well as thrusting, hence the classification of "cut-and-thrust rapiers"
A museum I've been to that displays the military history of Norway features quite a lot of swords with a label such as "Rapir" and "Korde" (Both mean rapier, but the ones labelled "Korde" weren't military weapons and only had a point), and the example swords were always in groups of four or five with varying shapes and dimensions.
Saw this video a couple of times, i dismissed it but decided to find the context. I know there are videos with contradicting titles as a way of saying a message. Im glad this is one of those videos
Very interesting. I imagine that in conjunction with a long dagger for defence, one could have more freedom for stronger cutting motions with a rapier type sword.
That Rapier guard is really interesting. I know that they come in every which shape (possibly even more so than the blade), but from what I can tell, the finger ring's under the blade. If anyone knows who made it, or just more images of it, I'd love to hear.
the problem about long rapiers (long weapons in general) is that if you miss the strike and the opponent charges at you to get in your face, there is really not much you can do. You need to have really good footwork to prevent that and even then, going forward is always faster then sidestepping and going backwards.
Maybe a bit drawn out but well said. Weapons, although they may be more specialized for one sort of attack, may still be able to deliver a whole swathe of other attacks. A Katana for instance, though primarily designed for slashing, can still be used in thrusting and stabbing motions as well, even if it isn't as geared towards it as say an Estoc, and vice versa, if the Estoc has sharp edges.
Wonderful point! Meyer's rapier (due to the times and place) was used with mostly the same kind of cuts you would expect from the dusack, so how could it be that ALL can't cut? Where is that rapier from? I noticed that it has its finger ring under the guard, similar to Mair's
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SpecArch96 Meyer's "Rappir" is a "Seitschwert" or "Spada da Lato" as the Italians called it.
Bastian Koppenhöfer By modern terms it would be classified as a sidesword, but Meyer himself, in his own day, refered to it as the rappier, which is just a result of less standerdised spelling systems back in the day, so I still call it a rapier. I don't recall the term sidesword (spada de lato) being used to refer to a specific type of sword which was a breed of its own, rather that a sidesword was just a sword that wore in your day to day life, which would've been something of an arming sword with a more protective hilt, basically what a rapier was, minus the 'museum' idea of a super thin, super long blade.
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SpecArch96 The word "Rapier" is derived from "epee rapière" which is derived from "espada ropera" which we would call a "side sword". A cut and thrust weapon as you said, for everyday use.
Bastian Koppenhöfer Thank you for clearing up the etymology :D It really makes it easier to understand that a rapier is a weapon with a lot of potential variations in design, all with the same name.
I’ve seen rapiers cut before. It’s actually quite frightening since they can be moved so fast. Sure it may not cut a man in half, but I’ve seen the flap of flesh that was left over from a quick flick of the wrist. If rapiers and small swords have any advantage it’s that their length makes them very very easy to maneuver
Sorry no then it wasn’t a rapier. Rapiers aren’t that fast, a 1 1/2 handed sword is way faster. Well if the grip section is long enough you can use a rapier with 2 hands and be much faster because of the relatively close balance point. But still a rapier is just as heavy as a long sword weighing around 1.2kg to 1.4kg and in one hand it’s not really that fast and I love rapiers, my favorites. I prefer rapiers with enough space for both hands - make it more versatile against different kind of swords. Don’t confuse rapiers with regular fencing swords who have slimmer blades and are way lighter. However a highly sharpened rapier cuts very well but it’s not the intended use for a rapier of course. But used as a 1 1/2 handed sword and against someone with regular clothes and no a armor, the cuts can be devastating to the body of the other person.
I'm new to western swordsmanship and I'm looking into rapier for hema the blade you have in this vid is far more meaty then the rapier I've seen I really like it what is it a specific type of rapier?
I saw the title and got annoyed. Much happier after watching the video.Well thought out and simple explanation that doesn't delve into deep minutae that's going to loose the listener.
Good point....sorta. Yes there are lots of different styles of "rapier"...but many things that might be called "rapier" by some are called "side sword" or simply "sword" which adds to the confusion. Generally speaking, the .75-1.0" (1.9-2.5cm) wide doubled edged blades of what are commonly known as "rapiers" are really not very good at cutting (issues with weight and width of blade) and merely adequate at slashing....as long as your opponent is wearing little to no thickness of even cloth, let alone actual armor. This is why now the 1.5+" (3.75+ cm) wide, complex hilt swords often get called "side swords" because they look a lot like a "rapier", but actually have the heft and width of blade to be decent cutters in a double edge format. Of course, the question for the "rapier uber alles" crowd...why is it that when you see military style swords that actually saw use during the black powder era you tend to see single edged cutters with heft (but can still use all the "rapier" moves) rather than the progressively skinnier and lighter progression of "rapier" to "small sword" to "foil" that would tend to fail (or have a higher chance of failing) against any kind of even light armor? Or culturally were designed to deal with fights resolved by "first blood rather than the rigors of actual warfare?
i also think people confuse rapiers (sword with a slender and sharply-pointed two-edged blade) and a estoc (tuck in English, grip for two-handed use and a straight, edgeless, but sharply pointed blade) both work great with leo ring tho
Kuro Chan a torso stab will almost instantly disable an enemy and very likely kill him in minutes or even seconds. A sharpened wooden stick can kill with one stab, you don't even need 2 strikes.
What manuscript speaks of how to do use one sized sword against a different sized sword? I want to read this . We use alot of diff sized swords in my group so it would be good knowledge
Cut as well as X, sure a big bagua saber, large messer, a kopis or falcata, one of longer La Tene Swords all might be able to cut better. But better is this case is a matter limb gone, instead of a large, often deep cut.
The way I have been thinking about it recently has to do with the drawing nature of the cut. Essentially, since all cuts to be effective have to have some kind of draw thru the target, the more a sword is like what would be considered a traditional rapier, the less you can rely on the momentum of the blade to do the draw for you. Meaning that you have to pull a rapier thru a target where you may just be able to let a saber follow its natural flow, making the cut less "natural" for a "traditional rapier". Thoughts?
When you're holding out a blade and cutting, it normally isn't directly in line with your arm - it's lagging behind a little bit. Look at the way the blade is positioned in relation to Dave's forearm at 4:02 and on. This angle means that it's naturally drawn through the target enough to cut. Deliberately pulling it through yourself isn't necessary, and tends to in fact make your cut less effective.
What about chopping blows? I imagine a rapier can draw-cut as well as any sword with a sharp blade, but what of its hacking potential? I'm just curious, as I wouldn't know; my impression is that they wouldn't chop quite as well as a heftier sword, but I also understand that rapier's aren't necessarily as light as people think, so that could be very wrong.
A rapier isn't necessarily that much lighter than a broadsword. They trade blade width for blade length, but it's often about the same amount of metal. You *can* chop with one, but the extra length combined with keeping the balance point near the hilt makes it so that the center of percussion usually comes out somewhere within first third of the blade, as opposed to near the halfway point for a broadsword or out at the end for a dedicated chopper like a falchion. Depending on the style of rapier it may or may not be sharpened so close to the hilt. A blunt edge doesn't get worn down as quickly when parrying and most parries are executed with the first third of the blade. If you're close enough to chop your opponent with a rapier it's probably more efficient to punch them in the face with the knucklebow.
Its not the robostness as much as the center of balance, hacking requires a center of mass near the tip. while thrusting prefers the center of balance to be closer to teh hand. to be good at one you must be bad at the other.
I guess people define rapier as mostly a long, thrusting sword? I think if you take away a specific blade type as a part of the description it becomes less useful and more vague. We could call all swords just swords but that means more explaining. So for me it's a question of typology and speech economy.
this, the dude has a made a video where he argues semantics, idk if he just wants to say that back then rapier could refer to several kind of swords that were used in the rapier fighting style/system. but i think that is what he actualy made a point about. which is semantics, as we who click the video are here for the long thruste sword with complex hiltguard.
regardless it’s still a big metal stick with an edge and wether or not the blade you have is suited for making a deep cut if you are put into the opportunity to strike where the cutting arc is the most efficient action you will
I feel like some of this comes from the popular misconception, typically by some sport fencers or popular culture, that all rapiers are like foils I.e. small, fragile, light things that can only really thrust. While smallswords are like that, the typical 17th century Rapier typically has cutting power and is a cut and thrust sword.
I think the very term 'cutting' needs to be clarified. Chopping is what Axes do, and something like a Kilij sabre widens out towards the tip to make it more choppy. Cutting is what knives do, and saws use a similar motion. You hold the blade tangent to the surface, and draw it along that line. Slashing is what sabers do, and how guillotines work. The force of the strike pulling the blade along the surface. Draw cuts are closer to a move where the user, instead of just blade geometry, moves in a way that transitions between the above categories. Did I bungle that up? Are there even more precise terms? You tell me.
I would say the classification is correct in that most people hear rapier and they automatically think long thrusting sword, whereas if someone says basket hilt sword a number of blade types jump to mind from the schiavona to the mortuary sword imo the taxonomy is correct as most rapiers other than early forms where almost exclusively basket hilted thrusting swords yet the schiavona was more of a true cut and thrust weapon in comparison.
Same debate that comes up in regards to katanas and that they can't puncture and can only cut. Katana in educated hands can stab an opponent through but it is not really what it was designed for. I am more a Sabre man myself. Great vid
I knew the answer before the video. In Spain they did use cuts, not as a lethal strike but more to be annoying and cause wounds to weaken your opponent.
In Swedish a rapier is split into their uses but their common term is Värja and they can be a thrusting and cutting. And the only feature that makes a rapier in our terms different from a saber is that they are 1. Straight and have long blades 2. They can have more than one edge 3. They were generally thinner this is of course when talking about the cutting type while the one most people think about is considerd a thrusting one. Apperently the thrusting one had up to 3 edges and that sounds crazy to me but there must have been a function for it so the edge must have been almost like a pyramid just thinking about it boggles my mind.
I would be interested to see sum test cutting against a dead pig or sum test cutting analog with a rapier . I know that they still retain sum cutting ability ,but it would interesting to see the actual damage.
If i was going into battle i would pick this a rapiers over all other swords because it has many more killing options. Fast double edge pointy trusty single handed sword vs any other blade including single edge swords.
Well- when it comes to types of cuts RECOMMENDED by masters in treatises there is very little space to argue- you cut from wrist of elbow. They do not say you CAN NOT do those large, powerful cuts (those are mentioned)- they just describe why it is not recommended by them and they tend all to agree on that. While one can incorporate them- it hardly makes much sense to put emphasis on those, because they are hardly most effective rapier tactic. That's not how Italian school utilizes the blade, that's not how Spanish school utilizes the blade.
Moral of the story:
A sharp piece of metal, by any other name, can still cut.
"Weren't designed for cutting" and "can't cut" are two very different things.
Exactly
It's like comparing apples with oranges.
Somebody gives a medal to him
Yeah but there are a lot of people who don't believe rapiers can have very effective cuts, which is the misconception this guy cleared up.
Exactly i mean sharpeners werent supposed to be used to cut iykyk👀
In firearms people often say a .22 or 380 is ineffective ... but you can never find anyone willing to stand in front of either and take a shot to certain parts of the body
.380 is actually incredibly effective with hollowpoints, that said I still prefer 9mm but I am smart enough to know .380 isn't low powered. A bullet is a bullet; after all.
And then what type of .22
@@PigeonHoot My favorite is a .22 mag. hollow point, semi-copper clad. Four of them fit in my ol' Freedom Arms pocket derringer-type thingie. It's been my "last ditch" for more than 40 years now. Obviously, it's a "neck and belly" gun. Works best up close and personal.
@@yepiratesworkshop7997 kinda feel that that you fear for your safety so much you have to carry guns everywhere.
Polnareff: **laughs in Stardust**
S I L V E R
C H A R I O T
*Laughs in Destructive Power*
SILVERY CHARIOTSU
He has a foil though that’s not a rapier
@@werewolftapus7630 same difference
As a rapier fanatic i cannot express how necessary this video is. Specially to people who treat it as a modern epee and make big sweeping parries that are able to block a wild thrust but leave the fencer open for a cut or a disengagement from a more experienced fencer. It saddens me that i have met some rapier "teachers" who did not cared about getting hit by a cut since they believed the blade was unable to cut, even though the old masters teach proper cutting techniques.
I think spanish rapier students can get this concept faster than students of italian rapier, don't really know why. I had to get direct access to the italian manuals to understand that rapiers are not "typical" and have a really complete system. Your video might help a lot of people m8. Thanks!
Ohship former sip These are two very different styles of fighting. The Spanish seem to be more open about dynamic fighting, while the Italians seem to have forgotten it. Whether this is through evolution of the form, or evolution of the attitude is unknown, at least to me. There may be clearer answers, but unfortunately I do not have them.
Thats bc Destreza, the Spanish school.
I was taught to fight with a rapier under the school of he Spanish Sword, and it is definitely a cutting weapon. It may not be a hacking weapon, but it will definitely deliver nasty cuts.
A good example is the rapier master depicted in Rob Roy, and the kinds of damage he delivers with his rapier. Tho he is using a sort of wimpy rapier.
th-cam.com/video/ERmM5l2ceoY/w-d-xo.html
Ohship former sip some rapiers can cut. I believe historical examples were designed for both but primarily cutting th-cam.com/video/WM1_ITty-ZI/w-d-xo.html
Love your "violent gentleman" style!
The Sword's Path
chivalry? It is awesome and I like the boxer briefs he put on the manakin
brandon kehl Mannequin
Whaaaat? Dave is obviously a berzerker.
He's like a gentleman rogue.
@Dee Vee my cousin is now in jail cause he is a rapier
I blame this on the trend that focuses on being the most right and trying to force things into black and white roles.
Just because something is not optimized to perform a role does not mean it can't fulfill that role.
This is pretty much exactly the case. This "trend" is also dumb because suprising your opponent with something he doesn't expect you to do is a very good way to win. Being narrow minded is the worst thing you can be as a fighter.
Edit: Suprising someone with something he doesn't expect.. yea, well how else could you suprise someone.. dumb me. >.>
Completely agree. This concept particularly pisses me off in RPGs and MMO's where you're forced into an "optimized" class that can't cover any of its weak spots.
The first 30 seconds I was just distracted by his mustache....
Holyterrio check your pockets
I don't understand what you mean by that.
Holyterrio I was distracting you to pickpocket you:)
Oh so Urban Dictionary was right, I just assumed it was a reference I wasn't getting.
Yeah he looks like a gangs of new york reject
Sideswords, rapiers, broadswords and smallswords. Variations of the same kind of sword. A cut to the face or throat would be quite dangerous for the recipient.
Whole different ball game when you factor in the types of armors that they wore. Those cuts or thrusts won't mean anything depending on which type of armor thats being used.
To be fair, none of them could cut through plate and most could hit unarmoured areas against a partially armoured opponent.
VS armour I would recommend a billhook, halberd or at least a longsword.
All but the broadswords were often used in civilian life and the broadswords where from a time where even the heavy cavalry rarely had more than a cuirass.
angelowl89 The thing is, they were civilian weapons. Rapiers were good for thrusting through gaps in plate armour, even covered in mail, but it wasn't used for that much after guns took power. You wouldn't go into a battle with a backsword or rapier ready to cut a knight or whatnot because they were designed to stab people in no armour or cut them.
vs armor, don't use a billhook or a longsword. Using a halberd with a hammer or pick, a warhammer or mace however, would be quite smart. Blunt force is the key to rattling an armored opponent. (I'm assuming we're talking about renaissance plate armor)
Small swords can't cut, the triangular blade doesn't allow it :/
The last official "sword challenge" Between two gentlemen happened in france, with rapiers and the fight was stopped because one of the guys had two DEEP CUTS. And wasn't able to fight anymore.
"You say rapiers can't cut as if you dictate the blade your opponent uses" is a wonderful argument that everyone needs to hear, and not just about this topic, either!
Similar shit with early medieval swords and the misconception that they were meant only for cutting, while some of them actually have quite pointy ends. And even if they don't, hell what is stoping me from thrusting?
This annoys me to no end in games like Dungeons & Dragons. Why can't I just stab things with it? Why is it blunted and why can't a half decent swordsmith sharpen the point?
Haha who needs a swordsmith when every sane person with a sword would have a sharpening stone, or could find one in a river, (if its just a bit blunt).
lol Hey even a blunted weapon if stabbed hard enough will hurt like no ones business and if used on flesh might actually pierce it.
Same applies to curved swords actually. Yes, inefficent and in some cases -depending on sword type the curve can be way too big that you need to make a really odd movement with your arm (forward-angled for example).
But look at damn messer or kilij or sabre or yatagan or shashqua, those can poke nicely if you want it!
Well, one thing you might want to consider is if the structure of the blade will withstand thrusting and if the material you're thrusting into risks breaking the tip off of your blade or even breaking it at the foible or the fuller. Despite what he's saying about rapiers, all swords are not the same and some are made to stand up better to different uses than others. Steel quality and design dictate heavily as to how the sword will hold up to certain kinds of abuse. Will the sword hold up to weapon-weapon contact, will it pierce armor, will the tip break easily when trying to pierce mail, will it stand up to shield blocking, is it made to be most effective at slicing the way a katana is, etc. etc. Even early European blades were varied and were designed with certain uses over others in mind, that's why there's different kinds.
Dear D&D GM... Raiper also do slashing damage. *shows video XD
Technically sword do all slashing, bludgeoning and piercing. but theirs no way to represent that.
@@irontemplar6222 yeah there is, multiple weapons are versitile and can do both
or give its damage (if its unsuited) as a different dice role in the weapons list)
say, 1D8 piercing, 1D4 slashing or 1D6
@@elgostineVersitile just means wielding it with two hands, and it goes up a damage die. Longsword goes from 1d8 slashing to 1d10 slashing
their is no trait in base D&D that convays what you mean.
@@irontemplar6222 no but there are weapons that are listed as being able to do both slashing and piercing
@@elgostine not I base d&d as far as I remmber. Their are weapons that you can use Dex or strength, but nothing that changes the damage type from one to the other
As someone who has accidentally cut himself on a rapier, I can say with certainty that rapiers can indeed cut. Just because it's good at thrusting doesn't mean that blade is dull.
I've never heard a man with a mustache as majestic as yours say "what's your fucking matter". Here, have my sub
I’m researching rapier stuff just for my D&D character lmao
Yo me too!
Do you own a bowler hat?
I have a suspicion you have one.
Interesting talk. Matt Easton also called rapiers cut and thrust swords. In his opinion, there might be better cutters, but the rapier still is capable to cut. I guess the teachers sometimes know it best :)
Rapiers aren't sabres, but hey ARE sharp. Rapier tactics employ DRAWING CUTS, as opposed to 'slicing' or 'slashing'.
The blade is 39 - 45" in length. If you can PULL that back across an opponent after a parry... It can unzip something quite nicely.
@Vapor do you have some kind of evidence of this? I am trying to learn a lot about swords and these kind of swords are really interesting so If you could share a few sources with me I would really appreciate it.
@@christopherjackson3455 thank you for sharing this.
this
I do like the quick thrust opportunities the short cuts can set up. Love the range of movement for footwork in a small space. Thank you
Thanks for this video! Rapiers seem to be really misunderstood swords.
Something that I think would help people's understanding is if there were more test cutting videos with high quality rapier reproductions. There are few videos of sharp rapiers in use at all, and in many of those only thrusts are demonstrated.
You look like a old master from the past. I get the feeling that you would give me a quest or start a revolution.
This is spot on. I've been telling people this, and having it fall on deaf ears for years now. What really demonstrates it for me is to show the collection of rapiers in the Army Museum in Paris. All from around the same period, all VERY different in size and shape of the blade, all classified as just 'sword.'
Excellent and perfect narrative. Totally right on about rapier and "sword" classification and use. Positioning and timing is always key. If you position yourself corretly and time it perfectly you can kill somebody with a razor blade even if they're carrying a broadsword
Really good breakdown. How you use what you are using makes a lot of real world sense. Good arguement angle about gettng past limiting how I think about any one blade and how it may be used.
Great video and very well done agreed on cutting and range of motions makes a difference and if it is possible to do wile in combat due to your opponents action.
I'd love to see you guys do some rapier testing.
Jim Giant
If we acquire a good rapier we shall most certainly test it to the fullest!
Jim Giant me too, if people send me sharp Rapiers, right up for it;).
Yes older style Rapiers can cut, while not particularly meant for cutting many of the older ones technically could primarily a stabbing weapon but still able to cut to a degree. Love the video though ^^ I just had to give a answer to the obvious rhetorical question though ^^. A bit of dry humor though, next people will be saying a katana can't thrust lol.
one thing i'd note and i suspect you'd agree is that, while all swords that do small motion cuts will cut weaker than big cuts, i suspect that due to the fact rapiers usually have a lot less tip and blade mass than say,, a dussak that smaller motion is going to ensure that those cuts will still be weaker since they compromise much more heavily in favour of thrusting
Sure they can cut, just not as well as a sword that is optimized for cutting because they are for thrusting. Rapiers are optimized for thrust and length because that is what was useful for fighters at the time/place of use. Something like a katana can cut better, but can't thrust as well and has shorter reach. Against armor, I'd rather have a rapier than a katana because cutting though steel with steel is a waste of time and effort. Its about the right weapon for the right job. (And no, before anyone makes claims, a katana cannot cut through plate armor. Don't trust anime)
Tbh, I still wouldn't take a rapier against plate. I'd take something like a spear, ax or the mix between the two being a Halberd, or even a mace despite my distaste for them. The amount of force you can generate with a light one handed sword is somewhat limited, so you'd need a ton of precision to hit the weak points or really put your weight behind the blow with a rapier to properly punch through plate. Although I do agree, a rapier is much better against plate than a katana, and this is coming from a katana guy.
Tim3shark this rapier can cut, swords are made for both, rapiers are swords
Arcus Diabolus You’ll never punch through plate with any weapon, besides the polearm and maces. The benefit of long rapiers against plate is that you can rely on the blade to skate across the surface and slip between the joints. The chain mail isn’t really a problem as the rapier is optimized to break the ringlets, and pierce the flesh beneath.
I would take a katana any day against a rapier if I was going against someone in plate harness, rapiers are too long and plate harness to good for the rapier to be effective.
Rapiers were meant to be used against people wearing cloth armor.... They were made during the renaissance, the late end of the renaissance when people weren't wearing plate harness anymore.
Of course I would prefer a nice roundel dagger, or perhaps a trefoil blade over either of those (roundel dagger for getting close and stabbing thru a weak point, upward into the neck, thru the armpits, groin, or the visor..
The Trefoil blade, cuz those can thrust well.
At Everyone
THe purpose of mace and polearms is not to punch thru armor as good luck against gothic plate harness. THe purpose of polearmors and maces is you hit them and you hurt them thru the armor due to the shear amount of force you transfer, rattling their brain against their head, shattering ribs etc...
You don't actually break the armor though.
The only way to really do that is with a 1000+ pound horse and a lance.
@Anti-Federalist 1776 Who said anything about using the katana as a hammer?
I would half sword it and go through the the armpits, elbows, and groin, as a rapier is a little on the long-side for half-swording.
Its also a little too thin to properly halfsword. A katana can go through mail with the thrust.
While I will give you that you "can" pierce gothic armor using the spiky bit, I think you are underestimating how much harder it is to go straight through the plate when someone is wearing and moving around in the thing, and it takes more then one solid wack in the same place to get anywhere.
But killing someone by slamming their brain against the back of the skull? way easier to manage.
In Spanish destreza you mostly do cut (hands and arms) and only stab if you see a clear opening to the throat, face etc. Yet you usually reach the position to use the thrust by using the blade to parry your oponents blade to one side and even grab his wrist/arm to force an opening. So of course there made to cut.
damn he looks exacly like a guy that would wield a rapier
"Rapiers cant cut." was unsure how this video was going to go when i clicked it haha. interesting way to think about swords tho, glad i watched.
"Well fuck it you fought with a sword against a sword"
I like your point that not all swords were the same length, and that the manuals covered what to do in all the combinations of cases. It's like boxing a shorter/taller opponent, there's tricks for both sides and things that generally happen. It's cool they covered it in melee to. The idea of "perfect blade length" is a lot like barrel length in firearms. People debate endlessly about which is the best trade off, optimum, why, etc.
I think it's important to know how to use them all, so one can make the most informed choice for themselves and know how they're used by others plus be able to use "battlefield pickups" if SHTF. I've found you can tell a lot about someone by what they consider to be the "best," and especially why they think that it is. And or by what they prefer.
Many examples of rapiers or rapier-like swords, such as Hernan Cortes' Espada Ropera, are great for cutting as well as thrusting, hence the classification of "cut-and-thrust rapiers"
A museum I've been to that displays the military history of Norway features quite a lot of swords with a label such as "Rapir" and "Korde" (Both mean rapier, but the ones labelled "Korde" weren't military weapons and only had a point), and the example swords were always in groups of four or five with varying shapes and dimensions.
Saw this video a couple of times, i dismissed it but decided to find the context. I know there are videos with contradicting titles as a way of saying a message. Im glad this is one of those videos
I like how he goes Oxford speech, Oxford speech, Oxford speech, fuck fucking fuck it, Oxford speech again... :D
Very interesting. I imagine that in conjunction with a long dagger for defence, one could have more freedom for stronger cutting motions with a rapier type sword.
beautifully informative and well explained, subscribed
This video sold me. Subscribed.
RAPIER CAN SLASH OR CUT IT JUST HAS DIFFERENT PATTERN OF CUTTING
I agree but it’s Made to mostly thrust rather then slash
i saw two videos where a man cuts tatami mats clean with a rapier in quick succession. granted tatami rolls didnt have bones in it -i hope-.
Nice moustache, the world needs a lot of people with big moustaches
That Rapier guard is really interesting. I know that they come in every which shape (possibly even more so than the blade), but from what I can tell, the finger ring's under the blade.
If anyone knows who made it, or just more images of it, I'd love to hear.
the problem about long rapiers (long weapons in general) is that if you miss the strike and the opponent charges at you to get in your face, there is really not much you can do. You need to have really good footwork to prevent that and even then, going forward is always faster then sidestepping and going backwards.
Maybe a bit drawn out but well said.
Weapons, although they may be more specialized for one sort of attack, may still be able to deliver a whole swathe of other attacks.
A Katana for instance, though primarily designed for slashing, can still be used in thrusting and stabbing motions as well, even if it isn't as geared towards it as say an Estoc, and vice versa, if the Estoc has sharp edges.
Test cutting emulating the big sweeping rapier cuts would be interesting to see.
The scars on my hand and forearm would agree with your assessment 😅
In any other context I would completely hade on the mustache... but for a hema practitioner - it works ;)))
Very well said! Very educational
You _can_ sharpen the sides of a rapier and slash with it, it won't be as good as a dedicated slasher but it'll still cut things.
Wonderful point! Meyer's rapier (due to the times and place) was used with mostly the same kind of cuts you would expect from the dusack, so how could it be that ALL can't cut?
Where is that rapier from? I noticed that it has its finger ring under the guard, similar to Mair's
SpecArch96 Meyer's "Rappir" is a "Seitschwert" or "Spada da Lato" as the Italians called it.
Bastian Koppenhöfer By modern terms it would be classified as a sidesword, but Meyer himself, in his own day, refered to it as the rappier, which is just a result of less standerdised spelling systems back in the day, so I still call it a rapier.
I don't recall the term sidesword (spada de lato) being used to refer to a specific type of sword which was a breed of its own, rather that a sidesword was just a sword that wore in your day to day life, which would've been something of an arming sword with a more protective hilt, basically what a rapier was, minus the 'museum' idea of a super thin, super long blade.
SpecArch96 The word "Rapier" is derived from "epee rapière" which is derived from "espada ropera" which we would call a "side sword". A cut and thrust weapon as you said, for everyday use.
Bastian Koppenhöfer Thank you for clearing up the etymology :D
It really makes it easier to understand that a rapier is a weapon with a lot of potential variations in design, all with the same name.
Exactly! 😀
That mustache is so cool
So controversial, yet so bold, I'm a fan.
I’ve seen rapiers cut before. It’s actually quite frightening since they can be moved so fast. Sure it may not cut a man in half, but I’ve seen the flap of flesh that was left over from a quick flick of the wrist.
If rapiers and small swords have any advantage it’s that their length makes them very very easy to maneuver
Sorry no then it wasn’t a rapier. Rapiers aren’t that fast, a 1 1/2 handed sword is way faster. Well if the grip section is long enough you can use a rapier with 2 hands and be much faster because of the relatively close balance point. But still a rapier is just as heavy as a long sword weighing around 1.2kg to 1.4kg and in one hand it’s not really that fast and I love rapiers, my favorites. I prefer rapiers with enough space for both hands - make it more versatile against different kind of swords. Don’t confuse rapiers with regular fencing swords who have slimmer blades and are way lighter.
However a highly sharpened rapier cuts very well but it’s not the intended use for a rapier of course. But used as a 1 1/2 handed sword and against someone with regular clothes and no a armor, the cuts can be devastating to the body of the other person.
Came for the mustache, stayed for the information
That blade with that cross guard and take away all the other hand guard bits and that looks like an Arming Sword to me.......
I'm new to western swordsmanship and I'm looking into rapier for hema the blade you have in this vid is far more meaty then the rapier I've seen I really like it what is it a specific type of rapier?
rapiers have an evident cutting edge, therefore they're perfectly capable to cut, that shold tell enough.
I saw the title and got annoyed.
Much happier after watching the video.Well thought out and simple explanation that doesn't delve into deep minutae that's going to loose the listener.
Found this video after watching him talk about Jedi videos
Dude got jacked over the past few years
really awesome video
great video as always brother! what practice sword is this?
This is some book of five rings wisdom here
Who's the maker of the rapier you are wielding? It looks great!
Nice vid as always.
Great video, great mustache
Good point....sorta. Yes there are lots of different styles of "rapier"...but many things that might be called "rapier" by some are called "side sword" or simply "sword" which adds to the confusion. Generally speaking, the .75-1.0" (1.9-2.5cm) wide doubled edged blades of what are commonly known as "rapiers" are really not very good at cutting (issues with weight and width of blade) and merely adequate at slashing....as long as your opponent is wearing little to no thickness of even cloth, let alone actual armor.
This is why now the 1.5+" (3.75+ cm) wide, complex hilt swords often get called "side swords" because they look a lot like a "rapier", but actually have the heft and width of blade to be decent cutters in a double edge format.
Of course, the question for the "rapier uber alles" crowd...why is it that when you see military style swords that actually saw use during the black powder era you tend to see single edged cutters with heft (but can still use all the "rapier" moves) rather than the progressively skinnier and lighter progression of "rapier" to "small sword" to "foil" that would tend to fail (or have a higher chance of failing) against any kind of even light armor? Or culturally were designed to deal with fights resolved by "first blood rather than the rigors of actual warfare?
your argument is supported by historically the "battle rapiers" tended to have wider blades.
Meyer's material certainly uses a lot of cuts, but those were early transitional rapiers
i also think people confuse rapiers (sword with a slender and sharply-pointed two-edged blade) and a estoc (tuck in English, grip for two-handed use and a straight, edgeless, but sharply pointed blade) both work great with leo ring tho
I wanna hear more rants, so I'll sub.
I've been looking for a rapier with a broad blade like yours, where did you get yours?
god id love to come and learn the long sword at the club
That is a beautiful blade, where would a person obtain one?
even a smal cut to the right Place can be leathal,
even paper cuts :v
If you can reach your rapier opponent before you are 2 feet into the blade then yeah, hack'em like mince meat.
Kuro Chan a torso stab will almost instantly disable an enemy and very likely kill him in minutes or even seconds. A sharpened wooden stick can kill with one stab, you don't even need 2 strikes.
yeah but can you do it while dealing with the superior reach
also they arent (or shouldnt be) 'wobbly'
What manuscript speaks of how to do use one sized sword against a different sized sword? I want to read this . We use alot of diff sized swords in my group so it would be good knowledge
I don’t know why I’m here but I am. And I love it.
Cut as well as X, sure a big bagua saber, large messer, a kopis or falcata, one of longer La Tene Swords all might be able to cut better.
But better is this case is a matter limb gone, instead of a large, often deep cut.
The way I have been thinking about it recently has to do with the drawing nature of the cut. Essentially, since all cuts to be effective have to have some kind of draw thru the target, the more a sword is like what would be considered a traditional rapier, the less you can rely on the momentum of the blade to do the draw for you. Meaning that you have to pull a rapier thru a target where you may just be able to let a saber follow its natural flow, making the cut less "natural" for a "traditional rapier". Thoughts?
The angle of the blade with your forearm basically takes care of that for you. Cleaving cuts work just fine.
Could you clarify?
When you're holding out a blade and cutting, it normally isn't directly in line with your arm - it's lagging behind a little bit. Look at the way the blade is positioned in relation to Dave's forearm at 4:02 and on.
This angle means that it's naturally drawn through the target enough to cut. Deliberately pulling it through yourself isn't necessary, and tends to in fact make your cut less effective.
What about chopping blows? I imagine a rapier can draw-cut as well as any sword with a sharp blade, but what of its hacking potential? I'm just curious, as I wouldn't know; my impression is that they wouldn't chop quite as well as a heftier sword, but I also understand that rapier's aren't necessarily as light as people think, so that could be very wrong.
A rapier isn't necessarily that much lighter than a broadsword. They trade blade width for blade length, but it's often about the same amount of metal. You *can* chop with one, but the extra length combined with keeping the balance point near the hilt makes it so that the center of percussion usually comes out somewhere within first third of the blade, as opposed to near the halfway point for a broadsword or out at the end for a dedicated chopper like a falchion. Depending on the style of rapier it may or may not be sharpened so close to the hilt. A blunt edge doesn't get worn down as quickly when parrying and most parries are executed with the first third of the blade. If you're close enough to chop your opponent with a rapier it's probably more efficient to punch them in the face with the knucklebow.
Rapiers definitely don’t chop as well. Slashing and slicing cuts are more the rapiers alley. Hacking and chopping requires a more robust blade.
Its not the robostness as much as the center of balance, hacking requires a center of mass near the tip.
while thrusting prefers the center of balance to be closer to teh hand. to be good at one you must be bad at the other.
Can you comment on how techniques that involve grabbing your opponent's blade work?
Richie Demo here you go th-cam.com/video/tXz5wI5AEvc/w-d-xo.html
I guess people define rapier as mostly a long, thrusting sword? I think if you take away a specific blade type as a part of the description it becomes less useful and more vague. We could call all swords just swords but that means more explaining. So for me it's a question of typology and speech economy.
this, the dude has a made a video where he argues semantics, idk if he just wants to say that back then rapier could refer to several kind of swords that were used in the rapier fighting style/system. but i think that is what he actualy made a point about.
which is semantics, as we who click the video are here for the long thruste sword with complex hiltguard.
Love this
regardless it’s still a big metal stick with an edge and wether or not the blade you have is suited for making a deep cut if you are put into the opportunity to strike where the cutting arc is the most efficient action you will
Sir your mustache and your sword are both fabulous! Can I ask where you bought that rapier?
I feel like some of this comes from the popular misconception, typically by some sport fencers or popular culture, that all rapiers are like foils I.e. small, fragile, light things that can only really thrust. While smallswords are like that, the typical 17th century Rapier typically has cutting power and is a cut and thrust sword.
He never tried to cut the mannequin...
I think the very term 'cutting' needs to be clarified.
Chopping is what Axes do, and something like a Kilij sabre widens out towards the tip to make it more choppy.
Cutting is what knives do, and saws use a similar motion. You hold the blade tangent to the surface, and draw it along that line.
Slashing is what sabers do, and how guillotines work. The force of the strike pulling the blade along the surface.
Draw cuts are closer to a move where the user, instead of just blade geometry, moves in a way that transitions between the above categories.
Did I bungle that up? Are there even more precise terms? You tell me.
I would say the classification is correct in that most people hear rapier and they automatically think long thrusting sword, whereas if someone says basket hilt sword a number of blade types jump to mind from the schiavona to the mortuary sword imo the taxonomy is correct as most rapiers other than early forms where almost exclusively basket hilted thrusting swords yet the schiavona was more of a true cut and thrust weapon in comparison.
The master gentleman
Stingrays should've been named Rapier-fish.
Monstrous Monk had a nice tatami cutting video in youtube with Windlass Musketeer rapier.
Swords that can't cut are either pointy metal clubs or extremely short one-handed spear
Same debate that comes up in regards to katanas and that they can't puncture and can only cut. Katana in educated hands can stab an opponent through but it is not really what it was designed for. I am more a Sabre man myself. Great vid
I knew the answer before the video. In Spain they did use cuts, not as a lethal strike but more to be annoying and cause wounds to weaken your opponent.
In Swedish a rapier is split into their uses but their common term is Värja and they can be a thrusting and cutting. And the only feature that makes a rapier in our terms different from a saber is that they are 1. Straight and have long blades 2. They can have more than one edge 3. They were generally thinner this is of course when talking about the cutting type while the one most people think about is considerd a thrusting one. Apperently the thrusting one had up to 3 edges and that sounds crazy to me but there must have been a function for it so the edge must have been almost like a pyramid just thinking about it boggles my mind.
I would be interested to see sum test cutting against a dead pig or sum test cutting analog with a rapier . I know that they still retain sum cutting ability ,but it would interesting to see the actual damage.
Sum
Oh wow is that Spring Mustachio?
If i was going into battle i would pick this a rapiers over all other swords because it has many more killing options.
Fast double edge pointy trusty single handed sword vs any other blade including single edge swords.
Well- when it comes to types of cuts RECOMMENDED by masters in treatises there is very little space to argue- you cut from wrist of elbow. They do not say you CAN NOT do those large, powerful cuts (those are mentioned)- they just describe why it is not recommended by them and they tend all to agree on that. While one can incorporate them- it hardly makes much sense to put emphasis on those, because they are hardly most effective rapier tactic. That's not how Italian school utilizes the blade, that's not how Spanish school utilizes the blade.
To be fair when looking at a Marco Danelli piece describing it as perfect is completely valid.
I had to subscribe when all the cursing began. 😁
It's almost like everyone confuses rapiers with the estoc