A REAL Antique 17th century RAPIER: Will it CUT?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2023
- Many rapiers can cut, to some degree, despite being specialised thrusting swords. However, some will not. Here we look at an original antique 17th century sword.
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Well the reason you sharpen every rapier regardless of cross-section is because you need to be able to scratch the 'Z' on your opponent before you tip your hat and take your leave.
The Fox ! ( EL ZORRO , the bane of Sgt. Garcia and Beloved by the people !)
Don't forget that you need to cut high splits in women's skirts!
I think you mean a '2'
That grip is absolutely incredible, the craftsmanship is truly timeless. I wish the artisan(s) who made these swords could know their work is still being admired hundreds of years later.
Yeah, the grip really stood out to me.
👍🍻🇿🇦
i thought the same thing. it’s altogether a very beautiful piece but that grip is incredible. -and in silver nonetheless!
On 17th century weapons, not only are they rare, but got reused into 18th century weapons so much. My son was given the chance to carry an original small sword that the owner thought was 18th century. He thought it was pretty, but didn't know much about it. I had a look at it....sure enough it had a 17th century maker marked (I forget the maker off the top of my head) rapier blade. My son handed it back, he wanted no part in accidentally damaging it.
i know for a fact that in italy there's a massive amount of stuff hidden in private collections, not necessarily of experts or even enthusiasts of the topic. i wonder what amazing artefacts are just sitting there taking dust, or maybe well kept, yes, but ignored and forgotten. not only swords and weapons but jewelry, tools, armors, clothes...!
also the church owns ALOT of pieces, so there's that too. i just wish they make them public, take and share some pictures at least..
@@hic_tus in the US we had a lot of Victorian business folks and old wealthy colonial families who bought up stuff and then their ancestors inherited it with no idea what any of it is. I used to work antique stores and auctions. There was so much randomness with sadly little provenance.
Was it a smallsword, or a rapier?
Do you think he wants to sell it
In South Tyrol, belonging since end of wwl to Italy, there is a castle/ Burg , where a lot of medieval/renaissance armour is shown, but no weapons. Why? During 1809 there was a great rebellion against the french led by Andreas Hofer. For HRE unusual, the Tyrolians had die to 1515 a law similar to , second adment' of USA. This meant, Andreas Hofer could mobilize 36000 Schützen and 42000 men Landsturm without firearms. For arming the Landsturm men, all kind of dangerous tools, selfmade weapons, for example spiked clubs, and of course every old weapon remaining in castles or weapons Chambers.
I always get distracted by the cool stuff hanging on the wall 😂
Me too!
Rada says in his manuscript of the early 1700s that with those narrow "verduguillo" blades if you cut with the last third of the blade you can cut the tendons of the hand or incapacitate an opponent with a cut to the head. You won't chop the head of but the blood and pain of the cut will be enough to finish the duel. Those kind of later XVII century rapiers are the ones that we simulate in our sala de armas
At that point you're basically whipping them with the tip of your sword so it still has merit.
People usually think of a specific example of weapon as being representative for that entire weapon type.
People say "the" rapier and, obviously, think of a specific kind of rapier.
I had the same problem in discussions about longswords, where people tell me what a longsword can or can't do, or what it does well and what it does poorly - and then get upset when I give them examples of longswords that contradict that.
There is no such thing as "the" rapier, "the" longsword etc.
There are rapiers and longswords, and both weapons have a tremendous amount of variation within that nomenclature.
This is probably why the word in use simply translates to "sword" regardless of geography. Different users have different preferences, and while they may follow the contemporary fads or style to one degree or another, they still ordered a "sword" from the smith with specific design criteria. I would be very interested in a discussion about what was driving sword designs, particularly increased blade lengths, in the 16th century in Europe.
And then there's linguistics definition differences, such as in Swedish, where a distinction is usually made between stabbing rapiers (Stickvärja) and chopping rapiers (huggvärja) as sub-categories of the generic rapier (värja)
To say 'rapier' is like saying 'sports car' in the modern world. We know what a sportscar is, but that can be everything from a super 7 to a zonda.....
That is a very good -- and I think -- quite accurate assessment, regarding "what was driving sword designs." I've also found that to be true with century old and older tools as well. It amazes me how many "swords" weren't very sharp at all -- such as cutlasses, Napoleonic, and Civil War (USA) examples that I've seen and or own. "Butterknife sharp," seems to be more the rule rather than the exception. But even a bluntish edge will cause a cut or a rip of the flesh when the sword is swung with the speed or force that would have been used in combat.@@theeddorian
@@yepiratesworkshop7997 In weapons employed on battlefields, one critical consideration tactically is not necessarily to kill, but to disable enemy troops. An injured trooper requires rescue, treatment, and retrieval off the battlefield. That has both tactical and morale effects among the opposition troops. Tactically, their strength is reduced as much as if the individual were killed, but the injured troopers tie up other personnel, often two or more, in actions that are not involved in opposing you. At the same time concerning morale, where a death may enrage opposition, injuries are more personal and frightening. Look up the original lyrics of the Irish version of When Johnny Comes Marching Home, or Stan Rogers' Barrett's Privateers. Or simply regard Donald Trump's distaste for the presence of permanently injured survivors of battles.
I suspect the perforations are a trade-off rather than a straight advantage-disadvantage. Both catching and deflecting are circumstantially preferable other the other, and weight reduction is its own benefit.
Yes, the scrollwork is lovely.
Yes I don't really have any strong opinions on the perforations, but I do get asked about them quite often.
It may be an advantage : an opponent will look twice and avoid to hit it, to make sure that his blade does not get stuck or damaged.
The entangle weapons may slow him down only for a heartbeat, but the surprise may be enough to unsettle him, force him to stop his attack to free his blade, and give the opportunity to counterattack.
@@chefchaudard3580 While yes, it also restricts the movement of your own weapon.
@@nevisysbryd7450 sure enough. Parrying with that cup can lead to unexpected results and render your counterattack impossible if it takes your opponent blade.
But if you were surprised by the attack, you can take back the initiative or it gives you time to retreat. Which is better than your opponent evading, pushing his attack, and his blade through you.
In the first case, the fight goes on. In the second case, you are dead.
Even if there is a slight disadvantage in combat, I'm sure that there were plenty of rich people that would have chosen the look over straight functionality.
in italian the rapier is called "stocco", very close to the french name. also "stoccare" means to hit with a thrust. even in sardinian language we still say "stoccadu" when someone is poked with a knife in a rather unplesant way. so there we go a little linguistic add on, if you like😁
btw, to me the decorated cup and hilt are very much for showing off. imagine when you show up at the party and all the ladies see your beautifully decorated sword with even a silver wired handle, oh my goodness! 😆
Yes, "stocco" is definitely the most popular Italian specific term for rapiers, but actually it isn't the only one: there are also "striscia", "spada a striscia" and "spada da lato a striscia", which are all names specifically used to refer to the rapier in "sword context".
What a gorgeous piece. It would be awesome if you could make digital copies of these artefacts before selling them on, if only for future historical reference. If you have an iPhone it's easy to do with the built in lidar scanner.
Or better yet, sell or lend it to Wndlass to make replicas of it.That cup hilt is really beautifully made and, in my opinion, is a close to a text book example of a cup hilt rapier as you can get and I think accurately made replicas of it would sell very well.
Spot on. As usually I think point of view on rapier is clear, interesting and well documented. Glad to learn you took up rapier more regularly! Would love to spar if we have the occasion !
Yeah that would be great! I hope to be back at Dijon in 2024, at last.
I've seen a number of pierced cups and they're all beautiful. Exceptional workmanship.
Awesome find! Thanks for sharing.
That LKChen rapier is perfect 🙂
I started learning to use single edged katana then double edged cut and thrust arming swords and longswords so I prefer cut and thrust swords to point-centric ones these days. Could do with some styling around the guard though, maybe make it a french shell hilt with some silver or platinum 😋
Cool sword. Thank you for another excellent presentation.
Thanks for watching!
@@scholagladiatoria My absolute pleasure, sir. Best wishes to you. Cheers!
Beautiful mate!
I'm so glad you exist.
Thanks again Matt.
A rapier like the LK Chen rapier is my favourite type of sword. I just find the curves of the hilt beautiful to look at
Lovely addition Matt
Congrats
Such a work of art.
That's a beauty of a find. Well done.
That is a very beautiful sword lucky to have that in your collection
Beautiful sword! :)
Thanks, Matt.
My pleasure!
Really nice looking rapier. I have to say with my layman’s opinion that growing up I always thought of rapiers as the type of sword you show here, with a sharp point meant mainly for thrusting. I do like the rapier types with slightly wider blades now but it was new info to me just a few years ago that those were classified as rapiers.
@Matt: How do they keep the corners of the blade getting shaved & knicked to the point where it cuts? I've got a few stripes on my forearms from cuts left by fencing sabers and epees (kids playing errol flynn with uncle's fencing gear they found in the attic - we're lucky to have all our eyes.)
Hi Matt, I recently was able to tour Coburg Castle, the Hereditary home of the Sax-Coburg royal family. It has immense war armoury, hunting armoury, and various other trophies/displays from wars against the Swedish and Ottomans throughout. Everything from early middle ages to 19th century. If you get the chance, you might want to check it out.
"I don't know, but It's a thing" --Matt Easton, Sword Expert
The more you know.....
I remember a cup hilted rapier my father bought from PCL back in the '60s: it had a slightly similar elaborately pierced cup (straight quillons, though), and a similar squareish blade. My late brother inherited it: I'm not certain whether my sister-in-law still has it. (I got the other sword from that purchase, a 17th c. smallsword: that has some minor cutting possibility, due to its much flatter blade cross-section).
In my reading I’ve come across warnings to destreza practioners about the neapolitan fencer’s incredibly fast lunge. This weapon would be totally lethal in the hands of anyone with good point control and a quick lunge.
Lovely sword 😊
Fantastic
Zorro was one of my childhood heroes. I believe the Disney tv series? Was his sword a fantasy?
I have never seen a 'real' one looking exactly like his.
Very interesting vid again 👍
The swords in the various versions of Zoro have got better 🙂
The Zoro in the 90s series was a modern fencing epee with a canted grip and a big dish guard I think, easier for the actor to not cut or poke anyone too hard 🙂
The newer one with Banderas used a beautiful kind of cut and thrust blade on a perforated more smallsword hilt with quillons, odd choice for the period and the choreography but still pretty 😋
@@valandil7454 : Thank you! Appreciate it a lot 👍
The point you make about the hilt decoration catching weapons was also made in Edo period Japan, about the sukashi of tsuba. Some recommended smaller holes (either for weight reduction, or possibly helping with vibrations during impact?), because larger holes would catch thrusts or even let a blade through.
That grip wrap is great, and I can't figure out a good way of doing it.
Good stuff. (I just got a Pappenheimer rapier with a blade very similar to that bad boy at 04;09, very much like a medieval arming sword, so much so that I'm hesitant to call it a rapier. Maybe a "swept hilt" broadsword?). that said, is "rapier" a misnomer? Are we just talking about hilts, or blades, or useage? Mind you, for battlefield use, I'd definitely want a stouter blade than that gorgeous cup-hilted one you have there.
What's the weight on this antique, Matt? I'd also be very interested just to know the specs in general!...
Beautiful rapier! Looks to me more like 18th century piece tho, very likely Italian. It looks a bit short and narrow for 16/17th century to me. No point debating if 'rapiers' can cut or not, its kind of obvious which blades are made for cutting and which aren't. This isn't one of those. Given a choice i would use a non-cutting blade and just 'cut' with the tip - any blade is good for a face cut.
Love your rapier videos.
One question, how would moder Caribbean machete fighting hold up compared to historical unarmored sword fights?
Andrew Bottomley has one listed that is somewhat similar to this (though with a different blade type and I think the grip and pommel on his are replacements so mostly going by the cup here).
I'm curious Matt, on yours is the foible at all noticeably flexible? Been reading about the Spanish/Toledo style and how a springy foible (but in a different way than a HEMA rapier) was desired as a sign of good heat treat. That COULD help potentially narrow down at least where the blade was made, although its likely others tried to copy it.
Beautiful, beautiful weapon, indeed.
In German accademic fencing, the ,Schläger' mostly have a basket hilt, rarer a cup hilt, the blades are used only for cutfencing, no tip, but first third is sharp. According to fencers of this style, i, Brittas boyfriend am no accademic, it happens sometimes that doing an unpropper cut, the flat side of light blade hits the face. For being light, the blade doesn' t break face bones, but it makes pain and gives a blue stripe to the face.
Speaking of the antiques, I haven't seen anything but some British sabers on your website for quite some time now. Any chance your going to get some more stock anytime soon? Particularly in the budget/restoration category?
“… Spanish with an Italian twist.”
See what you did there ;-)
Also I just did a video where we mentioned a passage from di Grassi talking about catching a rapier tip in a (custom?) buckler and potentially snapping the tip. Not sure if that would relate to the perforated cups, but I am curious about how durable you feel your square section blade is in the extreme foible.
It looks as though the aperture in the cup for the blade is wider and larger than it needs to be. Could this suggest the sword has been re-bladed at some point? Transitioning from a wider blade with cutting potential into the square section blade it currently has? Would I be right in thinking that fashion moved that way, from cut and thrust, to almost entirely thrust?
Can't wait for the LK review.
Watching your hand as you flicked it around, I wondered, did anyone make a rapier hilt to confuse the opponent as to how the hand is orientated or rotated. Maybe with a symmetrical plain hilt or a pattern that confuses. Or maybe decorations designed to make the hand look rotated further that one would first think. Is there any evidence of this or do you think it would be effective?
Zorro carried one like that and he cut stuff all the time. Case closed.
Can't help but feel that like any other weapon there were variations on a theme/adaptations.
what oils or products do you use to keep your swords from rusting?
Do you reoil your stuff after every practice, demonstration, and such or do you just oil them when their time comes?
I only really touch blades in videos sometimes, and then I give them a quick wipe with an oily cloth afterwards. Generally I try to avoid touching blades otherwise, and yes I just give them an oil and rub down occasionally.
@@scholagladiatoria Would I need to reoil a part if I were to touch it with a leather glove?
When we were kids, my cousin slapped me in the back with a car antenna and it hurt real bad. I imagine getting whacked with one of these would feel something like that but worse 😂
I collect 17th-20th century arms, i only have a single thing from the 17th century. I picked up a 19th century japanese sword the other day, what a beauty of a wakizashi
Id love a rapier like this, but the next thing on my list is a blücher sabre
To my very untrained eye, that second example of a rapier looked like a napoleon era heavy cavalry sword. What are the differences to look out for to distinguish between a rapier/longsword and a straight bladed saber?
Beautiful rapier.
How would you carry something that long? I can't imagine how you would get it in and out of a scabbard easily and where would it hang on the body?
After seeing several of your videos on rapier and their long length my question is how did they draw them?? Especially in a hurry.
It's not really that hard. Several manuals describe the action. Thibault in particular, who advises the use of a rather long (though proportional to each individual) rapier, give explicit instruction on the when and how to draw.
Eh, if you have to have a instruction manual on how to draw your blade, it might not be hard in absolute terms but hard in relative terms compared to other sword types.
How hard would be to use the tip to reap of skin?
That hole absolutely looks like battle damage and if so that makes this gorgeous item all the more beautiful to me. How many historical swords were just belt hangers and fashion pieces that never saw any real use? To have one that potentially SAW active dueling is incredible and very captivating to me. If metal could speak, right Matt? XD
Dear Matt Easton, why do we see passing footwork(when the lead foot changes) in stick fighting, longsword and some rapier systems. But we don’t see it in military saber?
Many systems (late rapier, smallsword, sabre, a lot of backsword etc) are dominant foot forward systems, and sabre works on the lunge and recover footwork system, like modern fencing (foil etc). If you are lunging to attack, then it makes sense to keep the dominant foot forward. However, we DO see passing footwork sometimes in sabre - when doing grabs, disarms, traverses, slipping the leg from an attack, closing moves, against bayonet etc.
14:41 There you can see that the original blade did not have that shape, it was probably modified a posteriori to give it a more sporty use and more similar to a "estoque"
Would a sword such as that have been used mainly for training, or for dress, or would it have been used for military or dueling? Or did they use the same sword for everything?
I'd think that such a narrow point would gouge pretty well. Not likely anything remotely lethal unles one gets quite unluck perhaps in the throat, but certainly enough to draw blood.
It seems like with a smallsword blade, there would be similar mechanical properies and mass if the blade was made as a narrow Y rather than the traditional broad Y and have a lot more cutting potential.
Actually in Italian there are some names specific to the rapier, some times it is called "stocco", "striscia", "spada da lato a striscia" or "spada a striscia". These are all terms specific for what the English call "rapier". Especially "Stocco" is a pretty common term to describe these swords between swords enthusiasts.
Tecnically, "stocco" should refer to medieval pointy swords (like tipe xv or such), not rapiers (striscia), I think that this traduction is more due to dnd 😅 (although in poetry "stocco" is used for "sword", and we can debate that a rapier is a sword, so.. 🤔)
It is thought that the term 'rapier' is corruption of Espada Ropera, or a 'sword of the robes,' ie, a weapon worn by a civilian, not a soldier, although certainly, some officers carried broad-bladed weapons with the characteristic rapier hilt into combat. Some cite the Spanish and German terms raspar or rappen - to scratch or tear. There is also he term “rapier”, first noted in 1474 in a French document as an epee rapiere, thought to be derivative of the Spanish term, although it is correct that most historical documents simply refer to this design (in a multitude of variations) as simply a Spada such as Di Grassi’s His True Art of Defence of 1594.
If Matt Easton fell into a cloning machine and had to fight himself, one with the antique and one with the replica, I wonder who would win? The replica looks fearsome but the antique looks faster, and there only need be one lucky thrust to finish the job. Whatever the outcome, Matt would be the winner (there can be only one).
Beautiful piece. Was it very expensive?
I believe there were duel rapiers like this one. Then war swords. And rapiers for all-day self-defense, suitable for cut and thrust, more ornate than war swords, certainly shorter than dueling swords, so they could be drawn quickly and worked in the streets.
I would like to see you do that famous movie trick where in one slash, you cut the wicks off of seven candles and the wicks are still burning in mid-air before they drop. :)
Looking at the demonstration of how nimble the rapier is, it is a wonder anymore survived duels. Looks like double hits would be the norm.
Coolest grip I've seen
It could still benefit from being edged just to make in potentially dangerous to grab. It doesn't take much to lacerate the inside of a person's palm.
That sword looks like it needs to be in museum horribly one-of-a-kind 🤯
Look into the forgeries in Ripoll, nowadays nortyern Spain in Catalonia. Naples and Sicily had been Catalan since the 1300s, and in Catalan a rapier is an estoc (litterally a tap/touch "es toc"). I'd bet a wage or two that Catalans created that.
First of, they wrote "Women" wrong on your mic,
second of, its adding a lot of white noise that hasnt been there in older video,
third of :This is a really nice rapier, thanks for showing us and sharing your knowledge
Thanks, I'll reset the mics and see if that fixes it.
That wide bladed rapier is nice
I wanna see that LK Chen Rapier review
And then there's linguistics definition differences, such as in Swedish, where a distinction is usually made between stabbing rapiers (Stickvärja) and chopping rapiers (huggvärja) as sub-categories of the generic rapier (värja)
Archetypes rather than definitions. I feel like we are looking at two different archetypes of how rapiers function and are getting stuck because it's only one word. Of course, it's a spectrum, so we you could in theory come up with infinitely many rapier archetypes if enough people paid enough attention, but if, for practicality's sake, you wanted to classify a certain manual's style of fighting, you could either call it (more or less) "thrust rapier" or "cut rapier", or something similar. Kind of like they called long swords "longswords" and broad swords "broadswords" back in the day; not by some strict definition of what long and broad were but by comparisons to some pre-existing archetype of "sword" that was obvious to the people they were speaking to.
While archetypes frustrate the hell out of academics, they work great for getting the point across (no pun intended) in everyday circumstances because the people you are communicating with can see and experience for themselves what you are talking about (unlike academics).
This is why most of the ideas we have about things are archetypes and not definitions, and why definitions are hard to know by heart. It's much easier for our brains to adapt and recognise things as belonging to a pattern if our concepts are fuzzy rather than hard.
Hm, i find a lot of rapier manuals have cuts as you exit after a parried thrust and they often target the face, neck, and hand/wrist. If you slashed with the tip shallow to a face or exposed hand you could seriously diminish their effectiveness as a fencer. It would be a very tippy cut but in the same way later manuals cut with small swords and the like. Not big hacking cuts but tip cuts to vulnerable areas.
Also, is the blade originap on that. The rectabgular opening in the cup doesnt look like it was made tp line up much with the current blade. Maybe just bad angle in the video or a case of not caring if it looked good.
I'm not sure about these 17th century cuphilts, but a lot of Bilbao style rapiers / broadswords have these s-shaped quillons.
I'm really unconvinced that we should measure the blade up to the crossguard, and not to the cup. While holding a rapier, especially in Spanish and some Italian styles, the index and middle fingers as well as the thumb are above the crossguard and in the cup. The ricasso is effectively part of the grip, and not at all part of the usable blade.
Why don’t we see perforated bucklers? Both for weight reduction and trapping points?
We do see ribbed and ridged bucklers, with designs to trap points. They became even more popular in the age of the rapier.
@@scholagladiatoria I was thinking more along the lines of lighter weight bucklers, that also have an advantage with points. Seems like a missed opportunity
There is an obvious difference between "splitting skin" and "cutting skin". Even a round bar of iron or rod of hardwood with small circumference can split open human skin if whipped against the skin hard enough (And if there is bone under the skin rather than something that will absorb energy.). Pretty sure this rapier would split your cheek wide open if one of those 'corners' hit clean and hard. BUT that is not a 'cutting' action, no sharpened edge is required to split skin by brute force. Such a wound is hardly going to decide a sword fight and so seems like it would be a bad idea to consider it as a strategy.
Does anyone know if the Spanish style teacher (Dave Rling? ) has a TH-cam channel?
www.youtube.com/@LondonLongsword
I guess this Rapier is more a "dress" sword of a gentleman/noble when not on campaign, while the ones with a broader blade and made for both cut and thrust are more for War.
I have one I use for "Dress" and that is also more for thrusting, another one, cut and thrust I use for "War" in re-enactment.
if a swordsman slashed with the sharp tip across a foes neck with force the tip alone would cut due to speed and mass and the fight would be over . likewise on any unprotected body part. at the end of the day if a leather whip can lacerate bare flesh, i am sure this long, fast moving , pointy iron bar can in the right evil hands . it aint lopping off arms and heads but it will cut you open enough to not want to fight anymore
Is the zoro signature Z slice possible?
Depends on what they mean by cut that tip would give a nasty scratch.
12:21 very nice sword!
You say uncontroversially a rapier, but I'm going to bet a whole quid that someone out there will call it a cup-hilted single-handed estoc, just like how some call the LK Chen rapier a cup-hilted arming sword/sidesword.
11:30 i think the Italian word you are looking for is - Stocco.
Am I right in thinking that the 17th century Rapier is kind of like a European version of the Chinese Dao?
Also, what if you you made the blade of that flatted diamond rapier serrated? Just a weird thought.
Probably more like the Jian
Matt, my question is not about the rapier, but about the antique metal. You had one video on the channel about the care of antiques, which was quite interesting. But in many museums, I've seen people not even touching this kind of blade with their hands without white gloves. Is it possible to take such old blades without gloves? Do you wipe them with a dry cloth in any way immediately after shooting the videos?
Looking at the LKChen rapier, my fantasy gamer says that's a D&D longsword if I've ever seen one...
Buen video
Thanks for the video 👍🏻 but personally I don't like rapiers or even some small swords ⚔️
Hi Matt, have you seen the movie Alatriste with Viggo Mortensen? If you have, I'll love to know your comments. Thanks.
3:37 OOOFF, OOOFF!
How much would it be worth at the time it was made? Would you need to own a massive estate?