I will just give you one example: the most unique and arguably most enjoyable aspect of Quake compared to other FPS is the movement. Quake Champions launched with absolutely zero explanation for a new player as to how the movement works, let alone a defrag mode with special maps, tutorials and achievements. The worst part of it is that the movement is very important if you want to play the rest of the game, otherwise you are at a major disadvantage.
@@EndpointQuake Not exactly, not in the traditional sense of a tutorial or a guide. It needs gameplay modes/maps that make use of the movement mechanics and teach new players how each mechanic works while they are actively playing a game mode that has objectives/achievements for completing the map or sections of the map. When you can complete the map, you can compete for the fastest completion time like defrag in previous Quakes, or jump maps in Team Fortress 2, or surf maps in Counter-Strike. Quake Live had a tutorial map like this, but it was very basic and didn't do much explaining and there was nothing left to do after completing it.
@@EndpointQuake Quake needs an IN-DEPTH and BUILT-IN tutorial, in addition to practice defrag maps. If casual players can't learn the movement tech then either the game has to properly teach them or not have the movement tech at all. Part of why Quake is so beloved is due to its unique movement, so it would be best that a new entry in the series properly explains these mechanics to new players. Even if the game has to hold a player's hand in order to teach strafe-jumping, so be it. As long as it gets the job done.
They hired a studio from St. Petersburg to make the game, probably because it was cheap and they had their own engine that they knew, and that's the whole secret.
Yeah I think the Saber contribution that is now cut off likely explains a lot of the issues with the game. Maybe that doesn't explain EVERYTHYING but its an obviously huge "elephant in the room" factor.
@@EndpointQuake this often happens when games are outsourced since it might take up to a year for another studio to get familiar with a different engine.
@@EndpointQuake Simple as that. Bring in the possibility of Tim Willits having outside relations with the founders of Saber (Andrey Iones & Matthew Karch in this case) and it will start to make a lot of sense why they went with saber in the first place (i.e they were known to be an incredibly cheap studio with some solid talent that could make games insanely quickly). It also makes a lot of sense why both Tim Willits and Todd Hollenshed left id software and joined Saber roughly 2 years after running QC firmly into the ground (Qc released as early access mid 2017 to the masses, saber then got pulled off of qc in late 2018, Todd and Tim left id and joined saber in august of 2019). In my opinion it's very weird more or less setting the entire game on fire and then immediately leaving, but that's just me.
The reason for the specific engine decisions made in Quake Champions was the need for a technology with no motion blur. If you remember, id tech 6 had serious issues with the TAA introducing blur and "gridlines" in certain parts of the image (for example Doom 2016). A multiplayer game like Quake needs a pristine image in rapid motion. TAA was added to QC later, but even with TAA its not the same level of blurring as id tech 6 or even idtech 7. I think the decision to use Saber's specific take on the tech was motivated by this above all.
@@Wobbothe3rdbut now its too late 😂 potential new players are not gonna stick around, they gonna download the game because of hype, and if it sucks they will most likely delete it and move on from it forever today the market is full of games, nobody wants to waste time
I started playing multiplayer in 1997ish, playing QW and Q2 and then attending a few LANs for Q3. In this day and age, if Quake returns and wants to have a successful multiplayer/esports I believe it needs to do something a bit different - have a mode that is like Quake Wars. Some sort of high player count mode, big maps, objectives, etc,. That's what players like these days and would give them an introduction to the game that isn't getting smashed in CTF/duel.
also would be interesting to see a mode with headshots with increased dmg, but this would probably have to revaluate whole health/armor pool. Or maybe a new champion (if Q6 will be champion oriented) with headshot passive or ulti. I mean not 1 shot 1 kill headshot, but increased dmg rewarding head aiming. Casyal players do not play duels nowadays, this is almost dead mode, casuals want to hop in and have some team shooting to relax, so yeah, I agree that we need new modes. I think they should also consider different wpn damage in different game modes, or it will hard to balance. And rail is OP in QC, this should change, I would love to see more tracking aim oriented fights, not camping rail shots. but this is maybe just me ;)
Yo, Avek and Veng. Thx for the awesome-possum shows and your thoughts, guys, really appreciate your efforts, brother's love to you. I think that all Quakes were successful because each of them was next level shit. In terms of gameplay, setting up new genres, the engine, everything. Until Quake Champions wasn't. A copycat of somebody else's gameplay (hero shooter) and a really out-dated engine. So for Quake 6 we simply need next level shit again. Hire some geniuses. Bring back the intense Lovecraftian horror atmosphere. Multiply it by 10x. Show us some crazy engine that would make Unreal engine suck poodle's ass. Focus on single player, build the best levels and monsters that were ever made, that would drag millions of noobs potentially. Make the gameplay really scary and intense, let the player's model scream in agony so fucking desperate it would turn yours hair gray. Bring much, much more horror into it, horror is the key ingredient to differentiate from vanilla shooters and CHILD GAMES. Quake is the Mortal Combat of FPS. Just build a beautiful astonishing yet violent unique cyber-gothic world for it and let people enjoy fucking their rivals with their ripped-off backbones. That's all we fucking ask.
u know why doom 2016 was popular and QC was not, its because they put alot more effort into doom than quake.. they made doom on their inhouse idtech engine, and they invested into an story mode campaign.. while they outsourced QC to some other dev team and made it a f2p shooter with no story mode.. they gotta go the Q4 route, and make a good story campaign and then on top of it add a multiplayer.. that way they get people to buy the game, and invested into the single player and then eventually they check out multiplayer, and if its a good game and its fun, people will naturally stick around
4:50 SyncError has since confirmed the concept of QC vastly pre-dates the entire hero shooter craze. He shared a picture where the first design document (codenamed Quake Live Arena X) is dated 2013.
I think the biggest thing about Quake being hard to get into for new players, is that there are a lot of things that you need to learn, and if you don't learn them all (movement, weapon usage/switching, timing of items, placement of items and weapons, etc...), basically even a mediocre player will still destroy you easily, in pretty much all game modes. So, a new player to Quake needs to have some motivation and commitment, which the average person trying a new game absolutely doesn't have. I think a tutorial is not enough. Plus, most people don't like tutorials, they try to rush through them, they just want to play for real. I think Quake needs a game that has both a single player campaign (where you will be able to learn the strafejumping, the weapons, etc... You will have a lot of time to practice) and a multiplayer mode. If it costs too much to make a full campaign, just do like the Battlefield games did. Make a very short campaign, that lasts 2 to 4 hours.
7:50 from what I can deduce is that they had a small budget for QC, plus they wanted to make a joint venture with Saber/test the water with them (don't forget Tim Willits is at Saber now). From what Sync said if I'm not mistaken there is 0 Saber code in the engine right now (they removed it).
> From what Sync said if I'm not mistaken there is 0 Saber code in the engine right now (they removed it). What??? This is just impossible, you've definitely misunderstood him.
Sync definitely has not said that. But due to sanctions it is likely that Saber has not contributed anything to the game since at LATEST 2022, more likely since the game started. Also the ruble was very low at the time of development so it made business sense to id.
@@Wobbothe3rd Zenimax "fired" Saber in (IIRC) late 2018. Before that, we've been promised that demo recording will be added, many new champs were somewhat ready to be added, etc. But it all fell victim to hilarioursly unprofessional management (PR included) from Zenimax.
I mean, many people blame Saber's engine for being bad, while that is not true - it's not bad, it's just basically stalled. Saber could work on it and polish to perfection, add many highly requested features and etc., if not for poor Zenimax's administration.
@@oratrovovortaro it's probably more of a technical problem then. Adding features like demo recording would take actual access to the engine. It would be like adding features to Quake 1 if John Carmack left id in June of 1996. Code is really hard to understand from a new POV, especially C++
I've been hearing quake is dying since 2002, but as long as there's new development it's not going anywhere. Now, once the support for quake champions ends and there's no new quake on the horizon, after a year you'll have what unreal tournament is now.
yeah, we had Tresh winning Ferrari somewhere around this year, and now quake pros win 100 USD for a tournament :) it's developing for sure :) I dare to say that 80% player base is old timers old enough to soon start naturally passing away from multiple factors, I wonder who will play quake when those players will start to fade away.
I thought the topic around 17:00 is interesting. The other big competitive esport games like Dota 2 and CS2/CSGO has a much bigger playerbase even though they also got a steep learning curve. Maybe it's because the ranked mode of QC is duel, a 1 vs 1 mode? Perhaps without teammates to rely on (and blame), the mental toll of duel is too much for the average casual player. Speaking from experience, I know duel can get toxic or negative. It isn't always that way, and duels can be fun if you don't worry too much about losing, but it is still a very personal experience that can quickly get frustrating. Now that I think about it, I think QC does suffer from a lack of casual game modes. I don't think CTF is that popular (but maybe it should be), and CA is not very well implemented IMO. Sacrifice is a cool mode, but I don't think most casual players play that a lot either. I might be wrong as I don't queue the mode myself, but it seems TDM is the most popular mode for casual play. My guess at why the more objective game modes don't get queued as much as TDM is because it requires more balanced teams, or at least communication, which is hard when the game is throwing random players into a server (albeit with some algorithm for balance). Part of the solution might just be having community servers again, and another solution might be a more simpler objective mode that randoms can somehow work together in. Or maybe rather than objective team modes, QC can have fun but simple team modes. I never played freeze tag but I hear that was pretty fun. Something similar to Diabotical's wipeout can also be tuned to be a simple but fun game mode in a future Quake game (hopefully 2GD won't mind his idea being borrowed).
Hey Avek just a suggestion as an interviewer, let the guest take a breath to respond q bit, elaborate their answer, and don't talk over him that hard raising your voice, is disrespectful sometimes. Hope you don't mind the criticism, maybe I'm wrong but it is what I perceived watching, and wanted to respectfully let you know.
@@maciejkrzykowski6757 I think what helps is to listen to understand, rather than waiting to say what you want to say. It can make for a better conversation. Always great to see your continued passion for Quake in your content!
I played Quake 3 Arena when we all had 60hz crt monitors but I had cable speeds to play on. That put me in a category of LPB low ping players that got to test some mod development servers that existed labeled 'LPB ONLY' So single digit pings. I have a few thoughts about it as just another fan of the game and where it's going. Quake was to modding fps games as Bethesda was for modding it's rpg games. Imaging Quake with creation club. In other words I think the lack of community modding stumped it's growth. Players got more excited when they knew they could get a model not just a skin. But then again that did get out of hand with some games so.. well a decision was made. They gave the champions introduced in Quake 3 Arena more lore and voices so the game has introduced story writing in it more than ever before and I don't think the original ID was used to that haha.. But yes I can see how Quake Champions got labeled as a Hero Shooter as it's the first big lore expiation of Quake. I own the Champions Pack yet disappointed no Sarge, Xearo or Klesk and others yet to appear. I don't think the engine is terrible. I think the perception of the Quake we've known going into wider ratios with small area locations that are full of choke points tries to make this game more of a wobble shooter in many places. In some areas you get a lot of vertical heights and the different champs speed dynamics spice up the odds some especially in a good clan arena match. But my laser vision I once had has faded and I need glasses usually now :p Still got enough muscle memory bwahaha If the next Quake cannot handle mods like defrag or excessive+++ ++ +++ then I will not be impressed. (heh) The anti-cheats don't seem to work for very long. However the most important part of that to us og Quake 3 players was what the lagometer was showing, and cheats can dupe that but it usually catches a red spike in between the frames if you watch for it. I think knowing about that is or was an important tool in recognizes a fair game verse a tampered game. In the end, Quake Champions does seem to be an Art and Lore project on the Quake Universe. When you think about it, why open it up to modding and map building if you haven't finished creating your games lore before modders take it again. Anyway, that's how I see it. My QC tag is crazy eyes Always keep and eye out for what the lagometer is showing o.0
I largely agree that the lack of user control of servers and modding is a problem, but it should be noted that Quake Live didn't support custom mods in its early years either. Like QC, it incorporated popular things that modders did. QL didn't really get "opened up" until years later. Also, don't underestimate how confusing and intimidating a server browser is to a new player, especially players used to the convenience of connecting in most free-to-play games.
Doom actually has a lot of potential in multiplayer too. Check Doom Eternal's Slayer vs Slayer mod. It's pretty hard to find in TH-cam but there is alot of similar things going on just like in quake
Doom literally INVENTED THE DEATHMATCH. It's ridiculous and frankly disrespectful of Doom's Legacy that id hasn't supported multiplayer with Doom. I could understand that that was not the focus with Doom 3, but even Doom 3 had a bare-bones Deathmatch! Seeing no Slayer vs Slayer in Doom Eternal broke my heart.
not Overwatch my friends u forgot about Team Fortress, which was before Overwatch. Overwatch made the Genre popular with their amazing marketing. Single player campaign allow more people to play the game and maybe try it out online.
Overwatch was not the first "hero shooter", Team Fortress maybe. I dont know, if there were earlier games or modes that did involve some type of heroes, but Team Fortress does for sure.
Things Champions should have had from the get go and possibly reasons its dying are, Continuous public servers, where players and their conversations are kept together after each match, gives stronger sense of community, something that helped Quake 3 thrive for so long. Proper 1st person Spectator mode in public games, with work arounds to prevent aiding an enemy team although that barely works for that purpose to begin with, spectating allows new players to watch better players and learn. And Avek touched on one important feature previous Quakes had and thats the Console. I'd like to narrow that down further to the Call Vote system. In Quake 3 if we had rampant cheaters that enough players agreed needed to go, or just a toxic player in general spamming chat with gross stuff, we could /callvote kick the player, now this didnt prevent them from reconnecting but it didnt prevent us from calling the vote again and again, the change I would make is once a player is kicked by vote they cannot rejoin the match until the match is over, this would make the game very boring for cheaters and probably force many to quit which is a win for the community. Lately there has been alot of them, often confirmed by pro players, not to mention ridiculous stats and the accounts having very low clocked in game hours, meaning they are making new accounts because their previous accounts are probably banned. As for a new game and the QC Engine being terrible, I dont know, it still has potential if hit registry can be further addressed, the zero damage direct hit rockets still seem to be a thing, as well as teleporters cancelling CPMA movement when you go through them at higher pings. Further balancing of champs would still be an ongoing battle, as would balancing weapons, as the super shotgun seems ruined for me, but I'm also often getting one shot from it by others from 20 feet away at full spawn health, so its basically very jank now. A new game would be great, but seems super unlikely now that Doom is getting a new game, one that treads on the esthetics of the original Quake unfortunately. For me Doom Eternal felt aweful, from the engine to the weapon system, to the item and health drops from enemies and lack of normal item pickups forcing a player to use glory kill, chainsaw, and flame burp way too often, and recycling the cheesy animated cut scene from each way too often, just doesnt feel like an ID title to me. Hopefully we are surprised with either a new Quake or some drastic upgrades and budget increases to Quake Champions like more devs added and whatnot and a return of Pro League, I wont hold my breath though. I'd just be happy with Instagib Ranked Duels being a thing, as Instagib Duels were one of the most popular duel modes in Quake 3 arena for many many years, complete with rail jump.
If you'd have an option for multiplayer mode without strafe jumping, where newbees wouldn't be instantly demolished by seasoned players, that would revive the game. This way newer players would have SOME feeling of accomplishment. And then they would be tempted to compete in the big leages with strafe jumping.
While I agree to an extent that having access to strafe jumping is such a big advantage experienced players have over newbies, I feel like part of Quake's identity is that you can strafe jump. Without strafe jump Quake's multiplayer might look really similar to Doom 2016 or UT. If Quake 6 does release sometime in the future, I think they need a fun, interactive, and very user friendly strafe jump tutorial, even better than the old strafe jump guide that QC had and the one QL has. QL's strafe jump tutorial map is good for showing the different movement techniques in a step-by-step fashion, but it's not exactly fun. Maybe set up an obstacle course where players can go for a high score time, something like that movement practice mission in Titanfall 2. Also maybe they can borrow some ideas from Diabotical's development and include that onscreen hud that assists with strafe jumping.
No, the entire point of quake Champions is the different physics for the different characters, like Sorlag's air control. The movement is a huge part of the depth of the game, and if anything the strafe jumping advantage in QC is LESS than previous Quakes!
@@Wobbothe3rd I said "an Option". Seasoned players could still choose the strafe jump multiplayer. Gotta make some compromises here. And to me It's not even a compromise, because I'd choose the multiplayer with strafe jumping. Otherwise Quake Champions is probably the last Quake game we had. If there's no audience, there is no money for tournaments. And if there's no money for tournaments, we'll have less and less of those.
@@DA-lt9tg dividing the playerbase in a multiplayer game is an EXTREMELY BAD IDEA, for obvious reasons. You can't make core gameplay elements "optional." Strafe jumping isn't even that big of a deal anyway, there are veteran players who do well in QC who don't know how to bunny hop. This is definitely not a major reason for QC not being embraced by more people.
@@Wobbothe3rd If you don't change something, nothing will change. And further more, While Quake is dying now, It will be dead soon. If you don't lure new players into the game, one way or another, that would have been the last Quake game. And when Quake is dead, there will be no live servers as well to play vs other players. And when it come to deviding the player base, there is almost no player base to devide. So at least let new player pay for the servers and the next Quake game. And I can garanty, that at least 10% of new players would try to player the game in it's intended form. I think, with this option you get more than you lose.
is it a month old video? 3:05 "qukecon 2 months away". I mean, all those assumptions in discussion, is this like NEWEST information on quakecon, doom etc. or month old now?
It makes no sense comparing Quake (or any computer game) with Formula 1. Of course in F1 there would be a lot more people watching. Compare quake to other games. Many people watch CS for example is because they find it fun and play it. If you play it, it is more likely that you would watch it. It is logical.
creating "elitist" esport imho is not a good idea, you need an influx of players, and a structure behind it to get them and if you have no player base u cant get more pro players. F1 exists only because of the ammount of money that is flowing through it. If you want Quake or arena FPS to become "elite type of esport" like F1, find a couple of billionaires that will love to spend their money on you and slap their ads on your in game models (kinda like intel was doing with QL back in the days with Q3DM6 Intel map). The problem arrives with the influx of New players. Better comparison would be MMA sports, Elite fighter is an elite fighter but reality is that there is a whole bunch of new fighters at the bottom trying to make it to the top, where in F1 they appear out of nowhere, usually from other car sports with a lot of sponsors behind them. summarising if we want to compare to the real sports, Imho: MOBA / Battle Royale = Football, Arena FPS/ RTS = MMA / Boxing. now you want to make ArenaFPS like tennis / golf or F1 like (rich man's sports) and imho that won't work.
The sponsorship model for QL failed, that's why id software abandoned it and moved to a subscription model - which also failed - then they just made it a one time fee.
it's all empty words sorry, because looking how fail qc nobody at near future will spend millions $$$ for new quake, "nothing personal only business sorry" - publishers speaking to all quake fans. all we need we alredy have - immortal classic, quake1234, ut99-2017, other indie afps, semilive qc;) We need to be happy that we have now) Have fun)
Nonsense. IPs are the single most valuable thing to a video game publisher now, when everything is oversaturated. The Quake IP is worth millions right now, it's an INEVITABILITY that Microsoft will eventually develop another one with or without id. The whole essence of id software and ESPECIALLY Quake is pushing forward with new technology. And for the record, id software claims they made money on QC - by your own logic that isn't a "fail" unless you think they're lying.
Replays of demos. Essential for cybersport feature
What I loved about qc was movement mix from other quakes
I will just give you one example: the most unique and arguably most enjoyable aspect of Quake compared to other FPS is the movement. Quake Champions launched with absolutely zero explanation for a new player as to how the movement works, let alone a defrag mode with special maps, tutorials and achievements. The worst part of it is that the movement is very important if you want to play the rest of the game, otherwise you are at a major disadvantage.
So Quake 6 needs a tutorial?
@@EndpointQuake Not exactly, not in the traditional sense of a tutorial or a guide. It needs gameplay modes/maps that make use of the movement mechanics and teach new players how each mechanic works while they are actively playing a game mode that has objectives/achievements for completing the map or sections of the map. When you can complete the map, you can compete for the fastest completion time like defrag in previous Quakes, or jump maps in Team Fortress 2, or surf maps in Counter-Strike. Quake Live had a tutorial map like this, but it was very basic and didn't do much explaining and there was nothing left to do after completing it.
@@EndpointQuake Quake needs an IN-DEPTH and BUILT-IN tutorial, in addition to practice defrag maps. If casual players can't learn the movement tech then either the game has to properly teach them or not have the movement tech at all. Part of why Quake is so beloved is due to its unique movement, so it would be best that a new entry in the series properly explains these mechanics to new players. Even if the game has to hold a player's hand in order to teach strafe-jumping, so be it. As long as it gets the job done.
They hired a studio from St. Petersburg to make the game, probably because it was cheap and they had their own engine that they knew, and that's the whole secret.
Simple as that?
Yeah I think the Saber contribution that is now cut off likely explains a lot of the issues with the game. Maybe that doesn't explain EVERYTHYING but its an obviously huge "elephant in the room" factor.
@@EndpointQuake this often happens when games are outsourced since it might take up to a year for another studio to get familiar with a different engine.
@@EndpointQuake Simple as that.
Bring in the possibility of Tim Willits having outside relations with the founders of Saber (Andrey Iones & Matthew Karch in this case) and it will start to make a lot of sense why they went with saber in the first place (i.e they were known to be an incredibly cheap studio with some solid talent that could make games insanely quickly).
It also makes a lot of sense why both Tim Willits and Todd Hollenshed left id software and joined Saber roughly 2 years after running QC firmly into the ground (Qc released as early access mid 2017 to the masses, saber then got pulled off of qc in late 2018, Todd and Tim left id and joined saber in august of 2019).
In my opinion it's very weird more or less setting the entire game on fire and then immediately leaving, but that's just me.
The reason for the specific engine decisions made in Quake Champions was the need for a technology with no motion blur. If you remember, id tech 6 had serious issues with the TAA introducing blur and "gridlines" in certain parts of the image (for example Doom 2016). A multiplayer game like Quake needs a pristine image in rapid motion. TAA was added to QC later, but even with TAA its not the same level of blurring as id tech 6 or even idtech 7. I think the decision to use Saber's specific take on the tech was motivated by this above all.
Single Player campaign also teaches the mechanics of the game. even Quake 3 had Single Player
I agree, but QC does have local bot play now.
@@Wobbothe3rdbut now its too late 😂 potential new players are not gonna stick around, they gonna download the game because of hype, and if it sucks they will most likely delete it and move on from it forever
today the market is full of games, nobody wants to waste time
I started playing multiplayer in 1997ish, playing QW and Q2 and then attending a few LANs for Q3. In this day and age, if Quake returns and wants to have a successful multiplayer/esports I believe it needs to do something a bit different - have a mode that is like Quake Wars. Some sort of high player count mode, big maps, objectives, etc,. That's what players like these days and would give them an introduction to the game that isn't getting smashed in CTF/duel.
also would be interesting to see a mode with headshots with increased dmg, but this would probably have to revaluate whole health/armor pool. Or maybe a new champion (if Q6 will be champion oriented) with headshot passive or ulti.
I mean not 1 shot 1 kill headshot, but increased dmg rewarding head aiming.
Casyal players do not play duels nowadays, this is almost dead mode, casuals want to hop in and have some team shooting to relax, so yeah, I agree that we need new modes.
I think they should also consider different wpn damage in different game modes, or it will hard to balance. And rail is OP in QC, this should change, I would love to see more tracking aim oriented fights, not camping rail shots. but this is maybe just me ;)
Yo, Avek and Veng. Thx for the awesome-possum shows and your thoughts, guys, really appreciate your efforts, brother's love to you.
I think that all Quakes were successful because each of them was next level shit. In terms of gameplay, setting up new genres, the engine, everything. Until Quake Champions wasn't. A copycat of somebody else's gameplay (hero shooter) and a really out-dated engine.
So for Quake 6 we simply need next level shit again. Hire some geniuses. Bring back the intense Lovecraftian horror atmosphere. Multiply it by 10x. Show us some crazy engine that would make Unreal engine suck poodle's ass. Focus on single player, build the best levels and monsters that were ever made, that would drag millions of noobs potentially. Make the gameplay really scary and intense, let the player's model scream in agony so fucking desperate it would turn yours hair gray. Bring much, much more horror into it, horror is the key ingredient to differentiate from vanilla shooters and CHILD GAMES.
Quake is the Mortal Combat of FPS. Just build a beautiful astonishing yet violent unique cyber-gothic world for it and let people enjoy fucking their rivals with their ripped-off backbones. That's all we fucking ask.
u know why doom 2016 was popular and QC was not, its because they put alot more effort into doom than quake..
they made doom on their inhouse idtech engine, and they invested into an story mode campaign..
while they outsourced QC to some other dev team and made it a f2p shooter with no story mode..
they gotta go the Q4 route, and make a good story campaign and then on top of it add a multiplayer.. that way they get people to buy the game, and invested into the single player
and then eventually they check out multiplayer, and if its a good game and its fun, people will naturally stick around
hows doom multiplayer? did people naturally sticked around to it?
@@Turned2Ice nah people played it for a little bit and then left
but doom multiplayer is not as sophiaticated as quake, its mediocre at best
Very well done with many topics but well covered!
Our boys cover everything 😎
Open the game. The community will bring it to its greatness 🔥
sweet dreams, but the audience playing community content will be like 5% of existing one
4:50 SyncError has since confirmed the concept of QC vastly pre-dates the entire hero shooter craze. He shared a picture where the first design document (codenamed Quake Live Arena X) is dated 2013.
I think the biggest thing about Quake being hard to get into for new players, is that there are a lot of things that you need to learn, and if you don't learn them all (movement, weapon usage/switching, timing of items, placement of items and weapons, etc...), basically even a mediocre player will still destroy you easily, in pretty much all game modes.
So, a new player to Quake needs to have some motivation and commitment, which the average person trying a new game absolutely doesn't have.
I think a tutorial is not enough. Plus, most people don't like tutorials, they try to rush through them, they just want to play for real. I think Quake needs a game that has both a single player campaign (where you will be able to learn the strafejumping, the weapons, etc... You will have a lot of time to practice) and a multiplayer mode.
If it costs too much to make a full campaign, just do like the Battlefield games did. Make a very short campaign, that lasts 2 to 4 hours.
7:50 from what I can deduce is that they had a small budget for QC, plus they wanted to make a joint venture with Saber/test the water with them (don't forget Tim Willits is at Saber now). From what Sync said if I'm not mistaken there is 0 Saber code in the engine right now (they removed it).
> From what Sync said if I'm not mistaken there is 0 Saber code in the engine right now (they removed it).
What??? This is just impossible, you've definitely misunderstood him.
Sync definitely has not said that. But due to sanctions it is likely that Saber has not contributed anything to the game since at LATEST 2022, more likely since the game started. Also the ruble was very low at the time of development so it made business sense to id.
@@Wobbothe3rd Zenimax "fired" Saber in (IIRC) late 2018. Before that, we've been promised that demo recording will be added, many new champs were somewhat ready to be added, etc. But it all fell victim to hilarioursly unprofessional management (PR included) from Zenimax.
I mean, many people blame Saber's engine for being bad, while that is not true - it's not bad, it's just basically stalled. Saber could work on it and polish to perfection, add many highly requested features and etc., if not for poor Zenimax's administration.
@@oratrovovortaro it's probably more of a technical problem then. Adding features like demo recording would take actual access to the engine. It would be like adding features to Quake 1 if John Carmack left id in June of 1996. Code is really hard to understand from a new POV, especially C++
I've been hearing quake is dying since 2002, but as long as there's new development it's not going anywhere. Now, once the support for quake champions ends and there's no new quake on the horizon, after a year you'll have what unreal tournament is now.
yeah, we had Tresh winning Ferrari somewhere around this year, and now quake pros win 100 USD for a tournament :) it's developing for sure :)
I dare to say that 80% player base is old timers old enough to soon start naturally passing away from multiple factors, I wonder who will play quake when those players will start to fade away.
I thought the topic around 17:00 is interesting. The other big competitive esport games like Dota 2 and CS2/CSGO has a much bigger playerbase even though they also got a steep learning curve. Maybe it's because the ranked mode of QC is duel, a 1 vs 1 mode? Perhaps without teammates to rely on (and blame), the mental toll of duel is too much for the average casual player. Speaking from experience, I know duel can get toxic or negative. It isn't always that way, and duels can be fun if you don't worry too much about losing, but it is still a very personal experience that can quickly get frustrating.
Now that I think about it, I think QC does suffer from a lack of casual game modes. I don't think CTF is that popular (but maybe it should be), and CA is not very well implemented IMO. Sacrifice is a cool mode, but I don't think most casual players play that a lot either. I might be wrong as I don't queue the mode myself, but it seems TDM is the most popular mode for casual play. My guess at why the more objective game modes don't get queued as much as TDM is because it requires more balanced teams, or at least communication, which is hard when the game is throwing random players into a server (albeit with some algorithm for balance). Part of the solution might just be having community servers again, and another solution might be a more simpler objective mode that randoms can somehow work together in.
Or maybe rather than objective team modes, QC can have fun but simple team modes. I never played freeze tag but I hear that was pretty fun. Something similar to Diabotical's wipeout can also be tuned to be a simple but fun game mode in a future Quake game (hopefully 2GD won't mind his idea being borrowed).
After making the whole diabotical like a big copy of quake live im sure he will not mind :)
Hey Avek just a suggestion as an interviewer, let the guest take a breath to respond q bit, elaborate their answer, and don't talk over him that hard raising your voice, is disrespectful sometimes. Hope you don't mind the criticism, maybe I'm wrong but it is what I perceived watching, and wanted to respectfully let you know.
Im aware of it, sometimes I dont know exactly when I can get in ! So im sliding in very unexpected manner !
@@maciejkrzykowski6757 I think what helps is to listen to understand, rather than waiting to say what you want to say. It can make for a better conversation.
Always great to see your continued passion for Quake in your content!
I played Quake 3 Arena when we all had 60hz crt monitors but I had cable speeds to play on. That put me in a category of LPB low ping players that got to test some mod development servers that existed labeled 'LPB ONLY' So single digit pings. I have a few thoughts about it as just another fan of the game and where it's going.
Quake was to modding fps games as Bethesda was for modding it's rpg games. Imaging Quake with creation club. In other words I think the lack of community modding stumped it's growth. Players got more excited when they knew they could get a model not just a skin. But then again that did get out of hand with some games so.. well a decision was made. They gave the champions introduced in Quake 3 Arena more lore and voices so the game has introduced story writing in it more than ever before and I don't think the original ID was used to that haha.. But yes I can see how Quake Champions got labeled as a Hero Shooter as it's the first big lore expiation of Quake. I own the Champions Pack yet disappointed no Sarge, Xearo or Klesk and others yet to appear.
I don't think the engine is terrible. I think the perception of the Quake we've known going into wider ratios with small area locations that are full of choke points tries to make this game more of a wobble shooter in many places. In some areas you get a lot of vertical heights and the different champs speed dynamics spice up the odds some especially in a good clan arena match. But my laser vision I once had has faded and I need glasses usually now :p Still got enough muscle memory bwahaha
If the next Quake cannot handle mods like defrag or excessive+++ ++ +++ then I will not be impressed. (heh)
The anti-cheats don't seem to work for very long. However the most important part of that to us og Quake 3 players was what the lagometer was showing, and cheats can dupe that but it usually catches a red spike in between the frames if you watch for it. I think knowing about that is or was an important tool in recognizes a fair game verse a tampered game.
In the end, Quake Champions does seem to be an Art and Lore project on the Quake Universe.
When you think about it, why open it up to modding and map building if you haven't finished creating your games lore before modders take it again.
Anyway, that's how I see it.
My QC tag is crazy eyes
Always keep and eye out for what the lagometer is showing o.0
I largely agree that the lack of user control of servers and modding is a problem, but it should be noted that Quake Live didn't support custom mods in its early years either. Like QC, it incorporated popular things that modders did. QL didn't really get "opened up" until years later. Also, don't underestimate how confusing and intimidating a server browser is to a new player, especially players used to the convenience of connecting in most free-to-play games.
Doom actually has a lot of potential in multiplayer too. Check Doom Eternal's Slayer vs Slayer mod. It's pretty hard to find in TH-cam but there is alot of similar things going on just like in quake
It has a massive potential in Coop. That's about it. The combat loop isn't fit for 1v1.
Doom literally INVENTED THE DEATHMATCH. It's ridiculous and frankly disrespectful of Doom's Legacy that id hasn't supported multiplayer with Doom. I could understand that that was not the focus with Doom 3, but even Doom 3 had a bare-bones Deathmatch! Seeing no Slayer vs Slayer in Doom Eternal broke my heart.
not Overwatch my friends u forgot about Team Fortress, which was before Overwatch. Overwatch made the Genre popular with their amazing marketing. Single player campaign allow more people to play the game and maybe try it out online.
Overwatch was not the first "hero shooter", Team Fortress maybe. I dont know, if there were earlier games or modes that did involve some type of heroes, but Team Fortress does for sure.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts...
It's what they're for!
Things Champions should have had from the get go and possibly reasons its dying are, Continuous public servers, where players and their conversations are kept together after each match, gives stronger sense of community, something that helped Quake 3 thrive for so long. Proper 1st person Spectator mode in public games, with work arounds to prevent aiding an enemy team although that barely works for that purpose to begin with, spectating allows new players to watch better players and learn.
And Avek touched on one important feature previous Quakes had and thats the Console. I'd like to narrow that down further to the Call Vote system. In Quake 3 if we had rampant cheaters that enough players agreed needed to go, or just a toxic player in general spamming chat with gross stuff, we could /callvote kick the player, now this didnt prevent them from reconnecting but it didnt prevent us from calling the vote again and again, the change I would make is once a player is kicked by vote they cannot rejoin the match until the match is over, this would make the game very boring for cheaters and probably force many to quit which is a win for the community. Lately there has been alot of them, often confirmed by pro players, not to mention ridiculous stats and the accounts having very low clocked in game hours, meaning they are making new accounts because their previous accounts are probably banned.
As for a new game and the QC Engine being terrible, I dont know, it still has potential if hit registry can be further addressed, the zero damage direct hit rockets still seem to be a thing, as well as teleporters cancelling CPMA movement when you go through them at higher pings. Further balancing of champs would still be an ongoing battle, as would balancing weapons, as the super shotgun seems ruined for me, but I'm also often getting one shot from it by others from 20 feet away at full spawn health, so its basically very jank now. A new game would be great, but seems super unlikely now that Doom is getting a new game, one that treads on the esthetics of the original Quake unfortunately. For me Doom Eternal felt aweful, from the engine to the weapon system, to the item and health drops from enemies and lack of normal item pickups forcing a player to use glory kill, chainsaw, and flame burp way too often, and recycling the cheesy animated cut scene from each way too often, just doesnt feel like an ID title to me. Hopefully we are surprised with either a new Quake or some drastic upgrades and budget increases to Quake Champions like more devs added and whatnot and a return of Pro League, I wont hold my breath though. I'd just be happy with Instagib Ranked Duels being a thing, as Instagib Duels were one of the most popular duel modes in Quake 3 arena for many many years, complete with rail jump.
You have a lot of thoughts clearly!
If you'd have an option for multiplayer mode without strafe jumping, where newbees wouldn't be instantly demolished by seasoned players, that would revive the game. This way newer players would have SOME feeling of accomplishment. And then they would be tempted to compete in the big leages with strafe jumping.
While I agree to an extent that having access to strafe jumping is such a big advantage experienced players have over newbies, I feel like part of Quake's identity is that you can strafe jump. Without strafe jump Quake's multiplayer might look really similar to Doom 2016 or UT.
If Quake 6 does release sometime in the future, I think they need a fun, interactive, and very user friendly strafe jump tutorial, even better than the old strafe jump guide that QC had and the one QL has. QL's strafe jump tutorial map is good for showing the different movement techniques in a step-by-step fashion, but it's not exactly fun. Maybe set up an obstacle course where players can go for a high score time, something like that movement practice mission in Titanfall 2.
Also maybe they can borrow some ideas from Diabotical's development and include that onscreen hud that assists with strafe jumping.
No, the entire point of quake Champions is the different physics for the different characters, like Sorlag's air control. The movement is a huge part of the depth of the game, and if anything the strafe jumping advantage in QC is LESS than previous Quakes!
@@Wobbothe3rd I said "an Option". Seasoned players could still choose the strafe jump multiplayer. Gotta make some compromises here. And to me It's not even a compromise, because I'd choose the multiplayer with strafe jumping. Otherwise Quake Champions is probably the last Quake game we had. If there's no audience, there is no money for tournaments. And if there's no money for tournaments, we'll have less and less of those.
@@DA-lt9tg dividing the playerbase in a multiplayer game is an EXTREMELY BAD IDEA, for obvious reasons. You can't make core gameplay elements "optional." Strafe jumping isn't even that big of a deal anyway, there are veteran players who do well in QC who don't know how to bunny hop. This is definitely not a major reason for QC not being embraced by more people.
@@Wobbothe3rd If you don't change something, nothing will change. And further more, While Quake is dying now, It will be dead soon. If you don't lure new players into the game, one way or another, that would have been the last Quake game. And when Quake is dead, there will be no live servers as well to play vs other players. And when it come to deviding the player base, there is almost no player base to devide. So at least let new player pay for the servers and the next Quake game. And I can garanty, that at least 10% of new players would try to player the game in it's intended form. I think, with this option you get more than you lose.
is it a month old video? 3:05 "qukecon 2 months away". I mean, all those assumptions in discussion, is this like NEWEST information on quakecon, doom etc. or month old now?
yeah recorded around mid june
It makes no sense comparing Quake (or any computer game) with Formula 1. Of course in F1 there would be a lot more people watching.
Compare quake to other games.
Many people watch CS for example is because they find it fun and play it. If you play it, it is more likely that you would watch it. It is logical.
creating "elitist" esport imho is not a good idea, you need an influx of players, and a structure behind it to get them and if you have no player base u cant get more pro players. F1 exists only because of the ammount of money that is flowing through it. If you want Quake or arena FPS to become "elite type of esport" like F1, find a couple of billionaires that will love to spend their money on you and slap their ads on your in game models (kinda like intel was doing with QL back in the days with Q3DM6 Intel map). The problem arrives with the influx of New players. Better comparison would be MMA sports, Elite fighter is an elite fighter but reality is that there is a whole bunch of new fighters at the bottom trying to make it to the top, where in F1 they appear out of nowhere, usually from other car sports with a lot of sponsors behind them. summarising if we want to compare to the real sports, Imho: MOBA / Battle Royale = Football, Arena FPS/ RTS = MMA / Boxing. now you want to make ArenaFPS like tennis / golf or F1 like (rich man's sports) and imho that won't work.
The sponsorship model for QL failed, that's why id software abandoned it and moved to a subscription model - which also failed - then they just made it a one time fee.
Ye ye ye Quake is death, syncerror killed this game
it's all empty words sorry, because looking how fail qc nobody at near future will spend millions $$$ for new quake, "nothing personal only business sorry" - publishers speaking to all quake fans.
all we need we alredy have - immortal classic, quake1234, ut99-2017, other indie afps, semilive qc;) We need to be happy that we have now) Have fun)
Nonsense. IPs are the single most valuable thing to a video game publisher now, when everything is oversaturated. The Quake IP is worth millions right now, it's an INEVITABILITY that Microsoft will eventually develop another one with or without id. The whole essence of id software and ESPECIALLY Quake is pushing forward with new technology. And for the record, id software claims they made money on QC - by your own logic that isn't a "fail" unless you think they're lying.