@4:39 That doesn't sound right. You said the late nineteen _eighties_ and *not* the late nineteen _seventies_ yeah? The Watergate scandal was the early 1970s ('72-'74?) while the conflict in Vietnam officially ended in 1975. No, you're not wrong about the timeframe of Gruenwald's run: *Mark Gruenwald wrote Captain America from 1985 to 1995.* I didn't get into comics until near the end of that run *and* I was an X-Men fanboy, so I wasn't reading it. Well, maybe an issue or two semi-randomly? (Cap Wolf?) Even when I started to read some related stuff, U.S. Agent was already an established character over in _West Coast Avengers_ and Steve Rogers was back to being Captain America... and I mistakenly assumed the backstory to all of that was from the late 70s at the most recent a.k.a. only a _little_ slow. *Why does it bother me that it is from the 1980s?* Before the full-on malaise of the 1990s, I recall the USA being fairly patriotic. Not post 9/11 "Are you sure that's patriotism?" fervor, but the 1980s is when stuff like _G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero_ was selling big and President Ronald Reagan served two full terms with his Vice President George H.W. Bush getting a single term that was likely Reagan's third term in many voters minds. *What I'm saying is,* I gotta press (X) to doubt. Because, if you couldn't sell Americans a patriotic hero during the Reagan era, something seems _wrong._ Could just be me and my own personal biases, I get it. While I was alive for this, like I said, I was *not* reading Captain America comics. Or is it perhaps the other way around? Are most of the folks praising this run doing so because they were *not* happy with the Reagan Administration? There's no problem with that, but citing events from the early and mid 1970s as "inspiration" for a comic run that went from 1985 through 1995... again, what am I missing? *Addendum:* Which does _not_ mean the Gruenwald run was bad. Again, I haven't read it! Just, if the direction he went was in response to stuff from the 70s, that was likely him or some editors above him, *not* how most of his comic book reading audience was leaning. Unless Cap's books were already hyperfocused on Gen Xer readership, which I suppose it _could_ have been...
I appreciate the POV from someone who was around at the time to experience the culture firsthand. Admittedly I was born in '99 so all I have to work with are articles written after the fact and my own American history classes. I used Watergate and Vietnam because despite being events in the 70s rather than the 80s, they were the best examples I could think of that viewers would most likely know of that were at least close enough to this time, that did quite a lot of damage to peoples' faith in their government. And stuff like Watergate was a factor in Captain America comics at the time, even having Steve become Nomad *because* of the Nixon scandal, which in turn influenced Gruenwald's run later. And while stuff like GI Joe did sell well, that's mainly aimed at young kids who most likely aren't paying attention to the local politics at the time, though like I said I was born more than a decade after the fact so I could very well be wrong, but I did my best with the information I had at my disposal. But whatever the case may be, for one reason or another a lot of people seemed to just want an edgier Captain America because there were a *ton* of letters requesting as much after that cover of Cap with the Uzi I mentioned.
@@majordisaster ...I appreciate your response but you're assuming way too much. I know you were probably just answering my comment to be nice, and I'm still naive enough to hope you'd want me to explain. Moreover, you said enough wrong in your response I feel I _have_ to explain for the others who weren't around at this time. Still, feel free to ignore me if it appears I'm just trolling or unreasonably arguing or whatever. ... When it comes to American politics, you can argue *not* trusting the government *is* patriotic. No, I'm not being glib or mistaking "modern politics" for the politics of the past, but am thinking about the American Revolution. Always be careful not to assume things are either the same or different from the present day. There was a *heavy* overlap between the action-figure buying and comic book reading demographics in the 80s and 90s. Not only did the _G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero_ comic book from Marvel launch alongside the Hasbro toyline, it was Marvel who created the storyline behind the toys. That comic book lasted 155 issues, from 1982 to 1994 so it seems pretty relevant to this time period. Consult Wikipedia about G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (the franchise) and you'll get a better idea of the overlap What you should understand from the modern day is to recognize political bias in reporting and education. That's probably why you thought the 1980s weren't especially "patriotic" for Americans when *they were.* Not post-9/11 2000s, but more so than in the present day. The 80s were the last gasp of the Cold War, with the Soviet Union officially falling in 1991. How well kids, be they younger kids, tweens, or teens understood politics of the day, I can't tell you. Odds are good most *didn't.* *So why did they want an edgier Captain America?* Because that was the style of the time. Don't _force_ a connection that isn't there. Well, isn't there for the readership. Marvel Comics creative teams were mostly left-of-center or actual leftwing back then. That didn't actually change until the 2010s, when *most* were leftwing or far left by American political standards. *The readers weren't* Cable, the Punisher, etc. just made the bulk of the comic book reading audience think that "Guns are kewl!" and so they wanted almost everyone to start using guns! To become _edgier._ Which could have been done without forcing a further wedge between Steve Rogers and the U.S. government. I mean, Captain America is a *literal* super-soldier; the only reason he probably wasn't using firearms was a combination of the Comics Code Authority and the politics of either the writers or the editors. *However,* I do want to stress that I have _not_ read Mark Gruenwald's run but *have* heard good things about it. I just think it was less "people are becoming less patriotic" to so much as "grim and gritty without soiling Steve". *How does this tie into the video?* It actually strengthens you primary thesis; Walker was always meant to "fail" as Captain America, and by making the "grim and gritty" Cap unlikeable, Marvel wanted to preserve Steve Rogers' Cap. A lot like Az-Bats versus Bruce Wayne.
@@KamisamanoOtaku So really the cause for people wanting someone like Walker as Captain America was no different than the majority of the other characters featured here. I appreciate you opening my eyes to a huge mistake I made during my research and I'll go ahead and pin this thread so other viewers can get all the correct facts, so thank you for the correction. Hope you have a good rest of your day/night, whichever it is for you.
I’m glad someone else has finally mentioned that the entire point of AzBat is that he’s a pisstake on edgy hyper violent anti heroes of the 90s which is funny in hindsight considering how modern Batman is portrayed.
I feel Batman comics from New 52 onward skims over Bruce's humanity and philanthropy. They only focus on his anger and brooding side. I also think that this ommission of Bruces character is why I enjoyed Tom Taylors Nightwing run. I felt he gave him Bruces missing traits.
@@big_lolo_01 This the funny part, people see modern Batman as an anti hero while in 90s he wasn’t really all that edgy which is ironic considering that was the decade of edgelords
Right, like I love Az as much as the next person but him as Batman just isn't good. Batman is supposed to be grounded, especially since he has a whole family now. Batman crusade isn't just about justice but about never letting another child see his parents gunned down in an alley and without that concept Batman just becomes a edgy bat bro
Someone in DC hates Stephanie Brown, for some reason. It's like every project involving her is canceled, or shows how much a failure she is. I was loving her time as Batgirl and it was canceled for the nu52
It's so bizarre just how consistently Steph gets screwed over, like the shit with Young Justice where I think even her nameless cameo somehow got cut after airing or something. I remember her being a favorite with fans too. My theory is that Steph was drawing in a lot of female fans, which some big name at DC didn't like.
Azbat is unironically one of my favorite Azrael stories, it doesn’t portray him as a villainous lunatic with zero redeeming qualities but as a victim of horrible prior trauma who was given a role he kind of knew he wasn’t ready for
11:25 Between trying to kill nightwing, ruining beast machines, ending the DC/Marvel crossovers, identity crisis, this happening to Stephanie Brown, it is insane to me how much shit that I hate in nerd media can be traced back to Dan Didio. The guy is a Supervillian.
13:07 Jason didn’t really become super edgy until later. He initially started as just a clone of Dick personality wise which people hated and became a bit more rude later on but modern comic fans for some reason like to act like he was a psycho edgelord as robin when in reality he was actually super nice but of course dc retconned that so his red hood transformation made more sense I guess
He was a circus boy like Dick in his first appearance, it was essentially a clone...The edginess happened when they retconned everything, which he was reintroduced stealing a batmobile tire (it wasnt because of red hood, that happened YEARS later)
Thank you for bringing this up. This isn't talked about enough. Really the only way he was different Pre-Crisis is the person who killed his parents being a different guy.
I'd go as far as to guess that even if Dennis O'Neil and Jim Starlin didn't like the concept of Robin, Jason Todd was never intentionally set up to fail. They probably just overcorrected the problem of being too similar to Grayson and it rubbed a lot of readers the wrong way...If anything, he may have been set up to SUCCEED, given Death in the Family is a momentous occasion and Red Hood was an instant success...But I know these two events weren't planned from the beginning, so Todd just caught a massively lucky break...Aside from all the trauma, anyway.
Keep in mind that Jason dying was a call-in thing. He would have been taken off the table for awhile either way, and there were alternate pages where Jason is severely injured, but not dead. In fact, O’Neil even voted for Jason to survive.
I haven't kept up with DC in a while but when the hell did Harley join the Bat-Family? She's literally murdered children how is she part of the Bat-Family?
@@callmejacob3234 she was for a very short period of time. It’s dumb and further assassination of a character in the hopes of turning her into a role model for little girls instead of a tragic warning. Because nothings more empowering than a mass murderer suddenly deciding to be a goofy superhero that follows another male. “Who can we sell to little girls as their hero? I know! Harley Quinn! She’s the perfect choice!” - DC and WB
Call me crazy, but I think Dan Slott in terms of story ideas and concepts, has done the best job of any writer on the mainline story’s in recent years. I really want to see a better version of the Red Goblin story though. It needs better writing and to be fleshed out more. I wish there was an animated movie for it
Well, making the best job with ASM isnt that hard considering how often they screw things...Slott problem is his obsession with sidekicks and the whole spiderverse concept
I always liked this concept. For a while another character takes up the mantle and just doesnt have what it takes to live up to it. But imo i think Azrael is better. Love superior spiderman but Azrael turning into the main antagonist of the second part of knightfall was a genius move cause he doesnt want to give up the power and went nuts with it
Funny thing about Jason, someone made a tread on Reddit asking if anyone on the site was among the callers for Jason's death, and a decent number of people admitted to voting for him to die, not expecting DC to have the guts to kill a Robin. At this point the only Robin that avoids death (no elseworld story) is somehow Tim Drake.
They did it with Batman again during the Superheavy storyline. Y'know, the one where Jim Gordon becomes the mecha-Bat or whatever. I actually really really liked that storyline....the moment Bruce "returns" gave me "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" vibes. He's him. He's always been him. He will always be him.
Superheavy didnt last as long as KnIghtfall or Reborn, it felt like a short story about what a police sanctioned batman would look like and how would Bruce be happy, it was really good (although i didnt like the bat rabbit armor) Reborn was the best way to approach this legacy thing, to the point that i wasnt happy when Bruce returned (batman inc was also....not Morrison best idea)
For me, the problem with Superior Spider-Man is that it went on too long. It had already made its point several times over by the time it finally wrapped up.
There's also all the Captain Marvels, and I'm talking about just the Marvel Comics versions. Carol Danvers is the 6th Captain Marvel, and the 3rd female one.
The 2 that come to mind, and probably my personal favorite captain marvels were the brainwashed skrull double agent who took the role during secret invasion and had a rather good identity crisis and questioning of loyalties before dying as a hero. And the original Marr'vell's son whose arc was handled as a tragedy where he drove himself insane trying to fill his father's shoes and eventually went full villain trying to remake the universe.
9:20 To be fair, she also became Robin because she thought Tim cheated on her. Of course, Bruce is an adult and really should know better. A lot of nameless civilians died in order to make Tim Drake jealous. Sometimes comics are stupid in a funny way.
To also be fair, this was the second time Bruce screwed with Stephanie like this. The first time having promised to train her so he could keep in contact with Tim (long story) and when that was resolved he not too long after dumped her and started getting everyone to stop talking to her. Just if you weren't aware they'd been doing this for a while.
Gotta say, though, they've definitely done some cool stuff with Jason and Steph in Wayne Family Adventures on Webtoon. Seriously, the current arc has the Joker show up again, and Jason has to leave Gotham because Joker killing him had that big of an effect on him. Regardless, Jason still finds a way to help beat Joker without actually being in Gotham, which is a REALLY good way to use his character.
I think John Walker is one of the more interesting characters and comics and loved him in FatWS and hated the amount of hate Wyatt Russel got for playing a fantastic character
Superior isn't decent. It requires all of Peter's friends (Super and normal) to never question anything about his personality shift. Basically all it really did was ruin Peter's life more
The only decent part was seeing Otto's character development. Other than that it was abhorrent when remembering this is _the mian universe_ for marvel and utterly decimating Peter's "friendships". ("With friends like these who needs enemies?".)
Superior Spider-Man is unironically my favorite legacy Spider-Man even over miles and I love miles don’t get it twisted but I love villains getting redemption arcs, Otto’s went up and down but i enjoyed the ride
They also did with Superman and Thor more than once. With Thor, they originally bonded with Dr. Donald Blake but during the Walter Simonson run, Blake was out then they bonded him with another human (can't remember his name) who was an EMS then he became a character called Thunderstrike then during Jason Aaron's Thor run when the jackass that was Nick Fury made Thor unworthy of his hammer then Jane Foster became Thor until she died from both her cancer and the beating from the Mangog, she is now the only Valkyrie. With Superman, it started when Doomsday killed him and 4 new Supermen appeared (Steel, Superboy, The Eradicator, and Hank Henshaw) while 3 of them were okay people Henshaw was evil, so when Superman came back he defeated Henshaw while the rest stayed part of his group, the next time Superman was replaced wasn't too long ago, when Superman went to Warworld to depose Mongul and an off shoot of Kryptonians, Superman's son Jon Kent took his place but when Superman came back from space, him and Jon kept the name Superman. But to me Clark Kent is Superman and Thor Odinson is the Mighty Thor!
8:37: Stephanie Brown appears in Young Justice Outsiders and Phantoms as the heroine, Spoiler, though mostly as a background character with few lines and involved in a few missions. You could've used scenes from that as well.
Bruce made Jason Robin while Dick was still being Robin as leader of the Teen Titans in New York while he was attending Hudson University and not talking to Bruce much. It was a sore subject. Jason had already been doing the gig for a while before Dick became Nightwing during the "Judas Contract" saga. Jason was at Terra's funeral. I'm sure the overlap also irritated readers.
@@SorceressHeart Yeah, Hippolyta pretty much set up Artemis for failure back then because of a prophecy that would potentially get Diana killed. Artemis was a great warrior but a HORRIBLE Wonder Woman. She lacked Diana's heart and compassion for mankind. She got banned from the Watchtower, was too aggressive, and straight up insulted a woman who was a victim of domestic abuse!
It's ironic current Batman is just like AzBat. What made Bruce Wayne special was that he wasn't only seeking vengeance on criminals, but he also made sure a kid like him is no more for good.
I love how Dennis O'Neil made a story to show a Batman who's all about Power, brutalising everyone in his path, including his friends, and having weapons and gadgets up all over him, etc. Would be considered "bad" for Batman through a Story, and it was loved for 20 years. Only for after those 20 years, we have Batman doing everything that the 90s fans wanted Batman to be. If you say anything against modern Batman, you're quickly casted as "Hating Fun" Modern Batman is the equivalent of a Drunkard who beats everyone including his friend, and tries to do something he thinks will be great, but brings trouble to everyone including himself. You can't let go of him, because your past memories of him were great, and all you wish is for him to revert to his best self... But his Friends who love drinking call you someone who hates fun.
Marvel would be so different if they chose Sam to replace Steve in the 80s. I'd like to see how Sam would have evolved through the 90s ans 2000s if he was Captain America alongside Steve instead of being his sidekick.
As a big Azrael fan I detest and love his run as Azbats. In his own eponymous mini series by the end he was actively working to control "The System" that had been ingrained into his mind. With the mandate he be essentially the broken Batman, his progress was halted. So while I actually like the Azbats design(well the more streamlined one opposed to Quesada's all out knight armor) and being trusted to undertake the mantle in the first place, I was disheartened the story didn't let him step down learning...well anything. He just realized he wasn't Bruce....but still left just as messed up mentally. I did appreciate the nose thumbing at readers who wanted bloodthirsty Batman getting what they wanted and back peddling immediately seeing how bad an idea it was. On a related note I like Walker too, because he is a good person, he just couldn't handle the power and ironically freedom being Cap gave him.
I'm gonna be entirely honest, I think Scarlet Spider Ben Reilly is probably my favorite Spiderman Legacy Character. I wasn't born when the run started for the Clone Saga (98 Kid) but when I started reading the storyline in 7th Grade I liked the storyline and didn't quite understand the hate for the run at the time, now with a bastardization of Ben, being much older, being online and seeing peoples thoughts good and bad, and having reread it, I understand why people hated it so much. But I feel with retrospect, it's not as bad as readers of the time thought and it's unfortunate that behind the scenes they had to kill him off despite having a really good arc with Peter. Am I biased with nostalgia? There's a very high chance, and I won't deny it. But I feel personally that "What If Peter had/is a Clone?" as a storyline is far tamer than a number of Marvel storylines and hiccups.
I think he could have used some footage of Spoiler on Young Justice to avoid looping that scene so much. Anyway, great take about Cap and Batman, I really liked Steph's part too.
I dont really think of Jon Stewart as a legacy character. While they definitely considered having him take over, he was never really anything nore than Hal's sidekick. Even after Jon took over for a bit, Hal was still a very present character. If anything, Kyle is the legacy green lantern.😊
What were you talking about with "audience reactions" to Walker being Captain America on social media? The common consensus amongst most fans then and now were that the show was terrible at making him out to be a villain. The majority of talk I have seen over the years is about how the writers failed to make people dislike Walker and fail to see why he was a bad Captain.
I ditched Spider-Man after OMD, and it was the Superior Spider-Man story that got me back in. I knew it was only going to be temporary because... of course it was. I wanted to see how the story was gonna play out and how Slot was going to bring Peter back.
The impact that Frank Miller did with those graphics novels can still be felt now (lots of people heard about it or didnt read those sequels) Not even Miller got Carrie to continue as Robin, but she was iconic because TDKR was really dark and edgy and shock everyone
Jesus the Stephanie torture stuff is exactly what I hate in comics. Just nerds who think they’re writing something mature when really all they’re doing is sticking a woman in a fridge for shock value. And don’t even get me started on identity crisis
@@minenamedothJeffeth The worst part is the panels I used are relatively tame, it got way worse but I just didn't want to subject any viewers to it. Agreed with Identity Crisis, just awful for the sake of being awful.
@@majordisaster thank you for not showing more but also sad to know there was worse 😔 but amazing video I’m binge watching all your stuff rn and can’t wait for more!
Dick would have answered any call to help Bruce, especially if it was needed to take Bruce's place as Batman. Dick himself admitted it that in Prodigal's finale. Bruce's ego didn't allow him to make that call in the first place.
John Walker always gets screwed, comics and MCU. In the comics he killed the people who killed his parents and in the MCU he killed a terrorist who killed his best friend and was trying to kill him. Not exactly an unhinged lunatic vigilante making his own rules.
Lee price's origin issue was actually my first introduction to venom outside of the lego games and my first comic ever so I have a bit of a soft spot for him
Lee Price was awesome and gave me Parker Robbin vibes based on following the villain's story. Hopefully, Al Ewing does him justice for his current return.
Umm the Black Panther fighting crime in the "bad part" of Wakanda is either still going on or just ended. Basically T'Chala got exiled from Wakanda but he is hiding in his father's city. As in it's named after his dad and is based on Chicago. It's a thing.
As much as people hate AzBat, or as i call him Knightfall Batman, i live him! To me, he was a fusion of a predator and Batman combined! He was badass, took out bane, and though he handled things in an unhinged way, his methods were effective . Even Bruce couldn't take him on as he had to morally defeat him as he knew he couldn't touch him physically!❤️💪😆
I actually really liked John Walker in the Falcon series. Sure, he killed terrorists. So? Firstly, they killed his friend, Battlestar/Lemar, and secondly, they were trying to kill him as well. What was he supposed to do? Play cards with them? Your enemy cannot kill you and yours if they're dead. It's a basic principle that soldiers live and die by, and unlike Steve Rogers, whose military training was in the context of WW2, John Walker is a modern soldier.
Sam Wilson took on the Cap's mantle all the way back in the 70s. Also, I read that Cap run at the time, and I think it was better than Batman's Azreal thing. Frankly, Walker's enemies in the panels you show had it coming. Steve did no different to the Nazis of WW2.
Colorism is a serious issue but no black person is calling a light skin black person "Kasper". My family has the entire gambit of black people's akin colors and at most, my light skinned family members were either called "yellow skinned" maliciously.
You know I am Curious when we hear about perfect civilizations and dc or marvel It makes me wonder what their street Street level crime is Or just crimes in general and there and not just a text to the country like in LA, veria, what Conda It would definitely make the societies. Feel more realistic than just, they're more advanced than any of us. Buster shining Beacon in yadait makes the Philippines actually a struggle from. To be this beaconof technological or spiritual advancements Like does kung lun have any problems who knows
The reception to John Walker in the show was really weird, not only had he done absolutely nothing to deserve it at first, he(imo) never did anything to deserve it at all, genuinely trying his best to live up to the mantle, with the scene meant to show he shouldn't have the title just making him more likable and sympathetic in my eyes. and on the topic of Sam, while racism against him taking the mantle is a big thing both in and out of universe, i think the main issue is that...he's kind of an ass? he never gives Walker a chance to prove himself, and seems to treat the terrorists(because that's what they are, by definition) with more respect than they deserve.
@4:39 That doesn't sound right. You said the late nineteen _eighties_ and *not* the late nineteen _seventies_ yeah? The Watergate scandal was the early 1970s ('72-'74?) while the conflict in Vietnam officially ended in 1975.
No, you're not wrong about the timeframe of Gruenwald's run: *Mark Gruenwald wrote Captain America from 1985 to 1995.* I didn't get into comics until near the end of that run *and* I was an X-Men fanboy, so I wasn't reading it. Well, maybe an issue or two semi-randomly? (Cap Wolf?) Even when I started to read some related stuff, U.S. Agent was already an established character over in _West Coast Avengers_ and Steve Rogers was back to being Captain America... and I mistakenly assumed the backstory to all of that was from the late 70s at the most recent a.k.a. only a _little_ slow.
*Why does it bother me that it is from the 1980s?* Before the full-on malaise of the 1990s, I recall the USA being fairly patriotic. Not post 9/11 "Are you sure that's patriotism?" fervor, but the 1980s is when stuff like _G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero_ was selling big and President Ronald Reagan served two full terms with his Vice President George H.W. Bush getting a single term that was likely Reagan's third term in many voters minds.
*What I'm saying is,* I gotta press (X) to doubt. Because, if you couldn't sell Americans a patriotic hero during the Reagan era, something seems _wrong._ Could just be me and my own personal biases, I get it. While I was alive for this, like I said, I was *not* reading Captain America comics. Or is it perhaps the other way around? Are most of the folks praising this run doing so because they were *not* happy with the Reagan Administration? There's no problem with that, but citing events from the early and mid 1970s as "inspiration" for a comic run that went from 1985 through 1995... again, what am I missing?
*Addendum:* Which does _not_ mean the Gruenwald run was bad. Again, I haven't read it! Just, if the direction he went was in response to stuff from the 70s, that was likely him or some editors above him, *not* how most of his comic book reading audience was leaning. Unless Cap's books were already hyperfocused on Gen Xer readership, which I suppose it _could_ have been...
I appreciate the POV from someone who was around at the time to experience the culture firsthand. Admittedly I was born in '99 so all I have to work with are articles written after the fact and my own American history classes. I used Watergate and Vietnam because despite being events in the 70s rather than the 80s, they were the best examples I could think of that viewers would most likely know of that were at least close enough to this time, that did quite a lot of damage to peoples' faith in their government. And stuff like Watergate was a factor in Captain America comics at the time, even having Steve become Nomad *because* of the Nixon scandal, which in turn influenced Gruenwald's run later. And while stuff like GI Joe did sell well, that's mainly aimed at young kids who most likely aren't paying attention to the local politics at the time, though like I said I was born more than a decade after the fact so I could very well be wrong, but I did my best with the information I had at my disposal. But whatever the case may be, for one reason or another a lot of people seemed to just want an edgier Captain America because there were a *ton* of letters requesting as much after that cover of Cap with the Uzi I mentioned.
@@majordisaster ...I appreciate your response but you're assuming way too much. I know you were probably just answering my comment to be nice, and I'm still naive enough to hope you'd want me to explain. Moreover, you said enough wrong in your response I feel I _have_ to explain for the others who weren't around at this time. Still, feel free to ignore me if it appears I'm just trolling or unreasonably arguing or whatever.
...
When it comes to American politics, you can argue *not* trusting the government *is* patriotic. No, I'm not being glib or mistaking "modern politics" for the politics of the past, but am thinking about the American Revolution.
Always be careful not to assume things are either the same or different from the present day. There was a *heavy* overlap between the action-figure buying and comic book reading demographics in the 80s and 90s. Not only did the _G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero_ comic book from Marvel launch alongside the Hasbro toyline, it was Marvel who created the storyline behind the toys. That comic book lasted 155 issues, from 1982 to 1994 so it seems pretty relevant to this time period. Consult Wikipedia about G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (the franchise) and you'll get a better idea of the overlap
What you should understand from the modern day is to recognize political bias in reporting and education. That's probably why you thought the 1980s weren't especially "patriotic" for Americans when *they were.* Not post-9/11 2000s, but more so than in the present day. The 80s were the last gasp of the Cold War, with the Soviet Union officially falling in 1991. How well kids, be they younger kids, tweens, or teens understood politics of the day, I can't tell you. Odds are good most *didn't.*
*So why did they want an edgier Captain America?* Because that was the style of the time. Don't _force_ a connection that isn't there. Well, isn't there for the readership. Marvel Comics creative teams were mostly left-of-center or actual leftwing back then. That didn't actually change until the 2010s, when *most* were leftwing or far left by American political standards. *The readers weren't* Cable, the Punisher, etc. just made the bulk of the comic book reading audience think that "Guns are kewl!" and so they wanted almost everyone to start using guns! To become _edgier._
Which could have been done without forcing a further wedge between Steve Rogers and the U.S. government. I mean, Captain America is a *literal* super-soldier; the only reason he probably wasn't using firearms was a combination of the Comics Code Authority and the politics of either the writers or the editors. *However,* I do want to stress that I have _not_ read Mark Gruenwald's run but *have* heard good things about it. I just think it was less "people are becoming less patriotic" to so much as "grim and gritty without soiling Steve".
*How does this tie into the video?* It actually strengthens you primary thesis; Walker was always meant to "fail" as Captain America, and by making the "grim and gritty" Cap unlikeable, Marvel wanted to preserve Steve Rogers' Cap. A lot like Az-Bats versus Bruce Wayne.
@@KamisamanoOtaku So really the cause for people wanting someone like Walker as Captain America was no different than the majority of the other characters featured here. I appreciate you opening my eyes to a huge mistake I made during my research and I'll go ahead and pin this thread so other viewers can get all the correct facts, so thank you for the correction. Hope you have a good rest of your day/night, whichever it is for you.
@@majordisaster I just thank you for listening!
I will say GI Joe ARAH (the comic not so much the cartoon) was pretty crirical of US foreign policy and not so jingoistic as you might think.
I’m glad someone else has finally mentioned that the entire point of AzBat is that he’s a pisstake on edgy hyper violent anti heroes of the 90s which is funny in hindsight considering how modern Batman is portrayed.
I feel Batman comics from New 52 onward skims over Bruce's humanity and philanthropy. They only focus on his anger and brooding side. I also think that this ommission of Bruces character is why I enjoyed Tom Taylors Nightwing run. I felt he gave him Bruces missing traits.
@@big_lolo_01 This the funny part, people see modern Batman as an anti hero while in 90s he wasn’t really all that edgy which is ironic considering that was the decade of edgelords
@@MILDMONSTER1234 I think there is a confusion between what is a vigilante and what is a anti-hero.
Shouldn't white tiger be bronze tiger since she's suppose to be a Latina.
Right, like I love Az as much as the next person but him as Batman just isn't good. Batman is supposed to be grounded, especially since he has a whole family now. Batman crusade isn't just about justice but about never letting another child see his parents gunned down in an alley and without that concept Batman just becomes a edgy bat bro
Listen Azrael might be a complete psychopath but he has some fine drip. No matter what Batman always has the finest drip. That's why he's the goat.
Someone in DC hates Stephanie Brown, for some reason. It's like every project involving her is canceled, or shows how much a failure she is. I was loving her time as Batgirl and it was canceled for the nu52
Someone in WB and DC hates DC. up and down the ladder
Yeah, Stephanie Brown is DC's punching bag. Or the Batfamily's punching bag. Wally West is DC's punching bag.
It's so bizarre just how consistently Steph gets screwed over, like the shit with Young Justice where I think even her nameless cameo somehow got cut after airing or something. I remember her being a favorite with fans too. My theory is that Steph was drawing in a lot of female fans, which some big name at DC didn't like.
Sont forget they made her boyfriend gay out of nowhere,and she was written to be fine with it.
@@rachetmarvel931bi
Azbat is unironically one of my favorite Azrael stories, it doesn’t portray him as a villainous lunatic with zero redeeming qualities but as a victim of horrible prior trauma who was given a role he kind of knew he wasn’t ready for
Out of all the alternate stores in this lineup, Superior Spider-Man is the one that caught my intrest the most
Superior Spider-Man was in the main marvel universe for a bit
@@kakashihatake4698 when?
@@pinkiprime7877 like when the character came out, he was part of the 616 continuity
@@pinkiprime7877for like 2 years, that was the main Spider-man
The only thing I didn't like about The Superior Spider-Man run was the treatment of black cat during and after the whole thing.
Superior Spider-Man is genuinely my favourite storyline in all of comics but they did him so dirty
It’s a Spider-Man thing to be done dirty
If that's your favorite story in all of comics, you need to read more comics.
@@BaithNa or maybe I just like something more than you do??
It’s only a good storyline because he was destined to lose. There’s a reason Peter Parker is Spider-Man
@@superjlk_9538 hard disagree
11:25 Between trying to kill nightwing, ruining beast machines, ending the DC/Marvel crossovers, identity crisis, this happening to Stephanie Brown, it is insane to me how much shit that I hate in nerd media can be traced back to Dan Didio. The guy is a Supervillian.
Wait, what did he do to end the DC/Marvel crossovers?
13:07 Jason didn’t really become super edgy until later. He initially started as just a clone of Dick personality wise which people hated and became a bit more rude later on but modern comic fans for some reason like to act like he was a psycho edgelord as robin when in reality he was actually super nice but of course dc retconned that so his red hood transformation made more sense I guess
He was a circus boy like Dick in his first appearance, it was essentially a clone...The edginess happened when they retconned everything, which he was reintroduced stealing a batmobile tire (it wasnt because of red hood, that happened YEARS later)
Thank you for bringing this up. This isn't talked about enough. Really the only way he was different Pre-Crisis is the person who killed his parents being a different guy.
I'd go as far as to guess that even if Dennis O'Neil and Jim Starlin didn't like the concept of Robin, Jason Todd was never intentionally set up to fail. They probably just overcorrected the problem of being too similar to Grayson and it rubbed a lot of readers the wrong way...If anything, he may have been set up to SUCCEED, given Death in the Family is a momentous occasion and Red Hood was an instant success...But I know these two events weren't planned from the beginning, so Todd just caught a massively lucky break...Aside from all the trauma, anyway.
Keep in mind that Jason dying was a call-in thing. He would have been taken off the table for awhile either way, and there were alternate pages where Jason is severely injured, but not dead. In fact, O’Neil even voted for Jason to survive.
@@charlievoiceact I didn't know O'Neil voted to keep Jason alive. Very sporting of him, considering he never liked giving Batman a sidekick.
Out of everyone here, AzBats has the most "We trained him wrong, as a joke!" energy.
I feel like Azrael should be part of batfamily and not Harley
He kinda is but kinda isn’t at the same time
He is more often than Harley is.
He's on the latest detective comics run with his 90's batsuit
I haven't kept up with DC in a while but when the hell did Harley join the Bat-Family? She's literally murdered children how is she part of the Bat-Family?
@@callmejacob3234 she was for a very short period of time. It’s dumb and further assassination of a character in the hopes of turning her into a role model for little girls instead of a tragic warning.
Because nothings more empowering than a mass murderer suddenly deciding to be a goofy superhero that follows another male.
“Who can we sell to little girls as their hero? I know! Harley Quinn! She’s the perfect choice!” - DC and WB
Lightskin black panther is a joke the boondocks would make
I really liked how Superior Spiderman was tied into the Spider-verse event
Call me crazy, but I think Dan Slott in terms of story ideas and concepts, has done the best job of any writer on the mainline story’s in recent years. I really want to see a better version of the Red Goblin story though. It needs better writing and to be fleshed out more. I wish there was an animated movie for it
Should be called the Hemogoblin first of all
@@ratatouilledrinksclorax9897 Hmm, I think that could work too.
Well, making the best job with ASM isnt that hard considering how often they screw things...Slott problem is his obsession with sidekicks and the whole spiderverse concept
I always liked this concept. For a while another character takes up the mantle and just doesnt have what it takes to live up to it. But imo i think Azrael is better. Love superior spiderman but Azrael turning into the main antagonist of the second part of knightfall was a genius move cause he doesnt want to give up the power and went nuts with it
Funny thing about Jason, someone made a tread on Reddit asking if anyone on the site was among the callers for Jason's death, and a decent number of people admitted to voting for him to die, not expecting DC to have the guts to kill a Robin.
At this point the only Robin that avoids death (no elseworld story) is somehow Tim Drake.
Jason Todd was one of the best comic books characters added to the batman franchise.
They did it with Batman again during the Superheavy storyline. Y'know, the one where Jim Gordon becomes the mecha-Bat or whatever. I actually really really liked that storyline....the moment Bruce "returns" gave me "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" vibes. He's him. He's always been him. He will always be him.
Superheavy didnt last as long as KnIghtfall or Reborn,
it felt like a short story about what a police sanctioned batman would look like and how would Bruce be happy, it was really good (although i didnt like the bat rabbit armor)
Reborn was the best way to approach this legacy thing, to the point that i wasnt happy when Bruce returned (batman inc was also....not Morrison best idea)
Stephanie did get dirty by the sounds of it, I’m a fan of the bat family webcomic, and that FAN COMIC did her way better
For me, the problem with Superior Spider-Man is that it went on too long. It had already made its point several times over by the time it finally wrapped up.
i LOVE Superior Spider-Man, both in the comics and whenever it happens in any of the cartoons.
The issue with Snyder's Batman is that he operated like John Paul Valley.
If War Games has zero haters I am DEAD. Stephanie is such an interesting character is like basically how people think Jason was as a Robin
There's also all the Captain Marvels, and I'm talking about just the Marvel Comics versions. Carol Danvers is the 6th Captain Marvel, and the 3rd female one.
The 2 that come to mind, and probably my personal favorite captain marvels were the brainwashed skrull double agent who took the role during secret invasion and had a rather good identity crisis and questioning of loyalties before dying as a hero. And the original Marr'vell's son whose arc was handled as a tragedy where he drove himself insane trying to fill his father's shoes and eventually went full villain trying to remake the universe.
Lee Price could've been a fire Punisher villain
9:20 To be fair, she also became Robin because she thought Tim cheated on her. Of course, Bruce is an adult and really should know better. A lot of nameless civilians died in order to make Tim Drake jealous.
Sometimes comics are stupid in a funny way.
To also be fair, this was the second time Bruce screwed with Stephanie like this. The first time having promised to train her so he could keep in contact with Tim (long story) and when that was resolved he not too long after dumped her and started getting everyone to stop talking to her.
Just if you weren't aware they'd been doing this for a while.
@@xl9079 Oh, I didn't know that part. Bruce's pettiness will never cease to amuseme.
I love how most of these could be summed up with publishers pushing a bad idea that the writers know for a fact won’t work.
That Jason Todd was one of the first I read. It rocked my world. I was used to Superfriends and the 1960s series.
Artemis as Wonder Woman is probably the best example of this phenomenon, right?
Gotta say, though, they've definitely done some cool stuff with Jason and Steph in Wayne Family Adventures on Webtoon. Seriously, the current arc has the Joker show up again, and Jason has to leave Gotham because Joker killing him had that big of an effect on him. Regardless, Jason still finds a way to help beat Joker without actually being in Gotham, which is a REALLY good way to use his character.
I think John Walker is one of the more interesting characters and comics and loved him in FatWS and hated the amount of hate Wyatt Russel got for playing a fantastic character
Superior isn't decent. It requires all of Peter's friends (Super and normal) to never question anything about his personality shift. Basically all it really did was ruin Peter's life more
The only decent part was seeing Otto's character development. Other than that it was abhorrent when remembering this is _the mian universe_ for marvel and utterly decimating Peter's "friendships". ("With friends like these who needs enemies?".)
Superior Spider-Man is unironically my favorite legacy Spider-Man even over miles and I love miles don’t get it twisted but I love villains getting redemption arcs, Otto’s went up and down but i enjoyed the ride
i adore superior spidey so much he is so cool!
Based
They also did with Superman and Thor more than once. With Thor, they originally bonded with Dr. Donald Blake but during the Walter Simonson run, Blake was out then they bonded him with another human (can't remember his name) who was an EMS then he became a character called Thunderstrike then during Jason Aaron's Thor run when the jackass that was Nick Fury made Thor unworthy of his hammer then Jane Foster became Thor until she died from both her cancer and the beating from the Mangog, she is now the only Valkyrie. With Superman, it started when Doomsday killed him and 4 new Supermen appeared (Steel, Superboy, The Eradicator, and Hank Henshaw) while 3 of them were okay people Henshaw was evil, so when Superman came back he defeated Henshaw while the rest stayed part of his group, the next time Superman was replaced wasn't too long ago, when Superman went to Warworld to depose Mongul and an off shoot of Kryptonians, Superman's son Jon Kent took his place but when Superman came back from space, him and Jon kept the name Superman. But to me Clark Kent is Superman and Thor Odinson is the Mighty Thor!
8:37: Stephanie Brown appears in Young Justice Outsiders and Phantoms as the heroine, Spoiler, though mostly as a background character with few lines and involved in a few missions.
You could've used scenes from that as well.
Bruce made Jason Robin while Dick was still being Robin as leader of the Teen Titans in New York while he was attending Hudson University and not talking to Bruce much. It was a sore subject. Jason had already been doing the gig for a while before Dick became Nightwing during the "Judas Contract" saga. Jason was at Terra's funeral. I'm sure the overlap also irritated readers.
I would've also added the time where Artemis became Wonder Woman back in the 90s. But overall, great video!
That was one of the first trade paperbacks I ever read in the 90s. Even without greater context I saw that Artemis got screwed
@@SorceressHeart Yeah, Hippolyta pretty much set up Artemis for failure back then because of a prophecy that would potentially get Diana killed. Artemis was a great warrior but a HORRIBLE Wonder Woman. She lacked Diana's heart and compassion for mankind. She got banned from the Watchtower, was too aggressive, and straight up insulted a woman who was a victim of domestic abuse!
It's ironic current Batman is just like AzBat. What made Bruce Wayne special was that he wasn't only seeking vengeance on criminals, but he also made sure a kid like him is no more for good.
I love how Dennis O'Neil made a story to show a Batman who's all about Power, brutalising everyone in his path, including his friends, and having weapons and gadgets up all over him, etc. Would be considered "bad" for Batman through a Story, and it was loved for 20 years.
Only for after those 20 years, we have Batman doing everything that the 90s fans wanted Batman to be. If you say anything against modern Batman, you're quickly casted as "Hating Fun"
Modern Batman is the equivalent of a Drunkard who beats everyone including his friend, and tries to do something he thinks will be great, but brings trouble to everyone including himself. You can't let go of him, because your past memories of him were great, and all you wish is for him to revert to his best self... But his Friends who love drinking call you someone who hates fun.
Marvel would be so different if they chose Sam to replace Steve in the 80s. I'd like to see how Sam would have evolved through the 90s ans 2000s if he was Captain America alongside Steve instead of being his sidekick.
This is absolutely amazing keep up the great work can’t wait to see more 🔥! 😊
As a big Azrael fan I detest and love his run as Azbats. In his own eponymous mini series by the end he was actively working to control "The System" that had been ingrained into his mind. With the mandate he be essentially the broken Batman, his progress was halted. So while I actually like the Azbats design(well the more streamlined one opposed to Quesada's all out knight armor) and being trusted to undertake the mantle in the first place, I was disheartened the story didn't let him step down learning...well anything. He just realized he wasn't Bruce....but still left just as messed up mentally. I did appreciate the nose thumbing at readers who wanted bloodthirsty Batman getting what they wanted and back peddling immediately seeing how bad an idea it was. On a related note I like Walker too, because he is a good person, he just couldn't handle the power and ironically freedom being Cap gave him.
I'm gonna be entirely honest, I think Scarlet Spider Ben Reilly is probably my favorite Spiderman Legacy Character. I wasn't born when the run started for the Clone Saga (98 Kid) but when I started reading the storyline in 7th Grade I liked the storyline and didn't quite understand the hate for the run at the time, now with a bastardization of Ben, being much older, being online and seeing peoples thoughts good and bad, and having reread it, I understand why people hated it so much. But I feel with retrospect, it's not as bad as readers of the time thought and it's unfortunate that behind the scenes they had to kill him off despite having a really good arc with Peter.
Am I biased with nostalgia? There's a very high chance, and I won't deny it. But I feel personally that "What If Peter had/is a Clone?" as a storyline is far tamer than a number of Marvel storylines and hiccups.
I think he could have used some footage of Spoiler on Young Justice to avoid looping that scene so much.
Anyway, great take about Cap and Batman, I really liked Steph's part too.
I dont really think of Jon Stewart as a legacy character. While they definitely considered having him take over, he was never really anything nore than Hal's sidekick. Even after Jon took over for a bit, Hal was still a very present character. If anything, Kyle is the legacy green lantern.😊
These are all my favourite characters.
Jesus fucking christ im so fucking cooked
What were you talking about with "audience reactions" to Walker being Captain America on social media? The common consensus amongst most fans then and now were that the show was terrible at making him out to be a villain. The majority of talk I have seen over the years is about how the writers failed to make people dislike Walker and fail to see why he was a bad Captain.
The black panther section was genuinely cursed
@@Venom_eddie123 Reading that storyline took years off my lifespan.
The actually drew that Black Panther comic lighter and brighter in color just to make a point. That's an epic level of spite right there.
Good video!!
"The amount of issues with her in the mantle can be counted on one hand"
Nooooo. Missinv fingers foils me again.
falcon goated
My favorite female robin isn't even called robin she's called Sparrow and she's darkclaw's side kick
9:15 as DC will say (at any given chance)
Because he’s Batman
You should do one with Totally Awesome Hulk,Dakens Wolverine and Linda Danvers Supergirl
Good video. Why do you have no rizz tho?
They didn't want to make Sam Wilson a villain. That's why he wasn't Cap
I've never heard of Stephanie Brown, but based on just what I see in that clip of her as Batgirl, I love it.
I ditched Spider-Man after OMD, and it was the Superior Spider-Man story that got me back in. I knew it was only going to be temporary because... of course it was. I wanted to see how the story was gonna play out and how Slot was going to bring Peter back.
For a bit i didnt think Scarlet Spider would go away. He's the Spider-Man who is in many famous comics from the 90s
Just a question, Why does everyone seem to like Robin Carrie as much as they like Nightwing?
The impact that Frank Miller did with those graphics novels can still be felt now (lots of people heard about it or didnt read those sequels)
Not even Miller got Carrie to continue as Robin, but she was iconic because TDKR was really dark and edgy and shock everyone
TDKR meat riding
I was hoping you would mention wonder woman and Artemis.
Walker was liked when everyone wanted to hate him
Even the adaptation does it wrong
At this point just make walker the sidekick to falcon
Jesus the Stephanie torture stuff is exactly what I hate in comics. Just nerds who think they’re writing something mature when really all they’re doing is sticking a woman in a fridge for shock value. And don’t even get me started on identity crisis
@@minenamedothJeffeth The worst part is the panels I used are relatively tame, it got way worse but I just didn't want to subject any viewers to it. Agreed with Identity Crisis, just awful for the sake of being awful.
@@majordisaster thank you for not showing more but also sad to know there was worse 😔 but amazing video I’m binge watching all your stuff rn and can’t wait for more!
Bro i was reading the current venom run and i totally forgot how lee price died it happened so fast lol
Dick would have answered any call to help Bruce, especially if it was needed to take Bruce's place as Batman. Dick himself admitted it that in Prodigal's finale. Bruce's ego didn't allow him to make that call in the first place.
Superior Spider-Man is my favorite run to this day, and it was actually my introduction to the 616 universe
10:52 You should’ve called this Harry Potter looking MF Dylan Horcrux.
If I had a nickel every time someone gamed a poll in an attempt to screw Jason, I’d have 2 nickels
It happened twice?
Jeeze I thought Kaspar Cole was some half remembered fever dream...
John Walker always gets screwed, comics and MCU. In the comics he killed the people who killed his parents and in the MCU he killed a terrorist who killed his best friend and was trying to kill him. Not exactly an unhinged lunatic vigilante making his own rules.
They wanted to kill a character off with AIDs and they elected jimmy olsen is so wild😭
Whose hateboner is bigger, Dan Didio's for Stephanie Brown and Wally West or Brina Micheal Bendis' for Tigra and Hawkeye
Lee price's origin issue was actually my first introduction to venom outside of the lego games and my first comic ever so I have a bit of a soft spot for him
Lee Price was awesome and gave me Parker Robbin vibes based on following the villain's story. Hopefully, Al Ewing does him justice for his current return.
20:07 umm, didn’t something happen when Flash was on the Guardians of the Galaxy and when he was a Space Knight?
Steph case is one of the saddest one
Hey, Doc Oc got Peter a Doctorate.
superior spiderman is so cool i can't see why people hate it doc oc becoming good is so cool and especially his gadgets
his dad isn't even dark!
???
I know right?
@@ThePaperKhan what part of this is unclear? by black people standards, kasper's dad is on the lighter end of the spectrum
Stephanie brown got the Spider-Man treatment
Superior Spider-Man is a great run.
Umm the Black Panther fighting crime in the "bad part" of Wakanda is either still going on or just ended. Basically T'Chala got exiled from Wakanda but he is hiding in his father's city. As in it's named after his dad and is based on Chicago. It's a thing.
It’s really funny that I still see people calling az-bat bad and edgy and just another 90’s mistake. Very funny
Great video and great topic. Funny enough Superior is my fave Spider-Man and I loved Azbat haha I have problems
Bro he literally is superior as spiderman though 😂
I actually didnt realize that Lee was the alt skin for venom in fortnite
As much as people hate AzBat, or as i call him Knightfall Batman, i live him! To me, he was a fusion of a predator and Batman combined! He was badass, took out bane, and though he handled things in an unhinged way, his methods were effective . Even Bruce couldn't take him on as he had to morally defeat him as he knew he couldn't touch him physically!❤️💪😆
I actually really liked John Walker in the Falcon series.
Sure, he killed terrorists. So? Firstly, they killed his friend, Battlestar/Lemar, and secondly, they were trying to kill him as well. What was he supposed to do? Play cards with them?
Your enemy cannot kill you and yours if they're dead. It's a basic principle that soldiers live and die by, and unlike Steve Rogers, whose military training was in the context of WW2, John Walker is a modern soldier.
Jhon Paul batman desgin is baddass and thats my opinion the gold does really work with batman though thats something that a few people agree with.
Walker did nothing wrong. He is my captain America
19:48
Venom is for the streets
It’s funny how deliberately horrible John Walker was loved by fans, but mcu John Walker was hated when he hadn’t even done anything wrong
Surprised you didn’t mention the irredeemable Ant-Man Eric O’Grady
Sam Wilson took on the Cap's mantle all the way back in the 70s. Also, I read that Cap run at the time, and I think it was better than Batman's Azreal thing. Frankly, Walker's enemies in the panels you show had it coming. Steve did no different to the Nazis of WW2.
Colorism is a serious issue but no black person is calling a light skin black person "Kasper". My family has the entire gambit of black people's akin colors and at most, my light skinned family members were either called "yellow skinned" maliciously.
like & sub earned!!
You know I am Curious when we hear about perfect civilizations and dc or marvel It makes me wonder what their street Street level crime is Or just crimes in general and there and not just a text to the country like in LA, veria, what Conda It would definitely make the societies. Feel more realistic than just, they're more advanced than any of us. Buster shining Beacon in yadait makes the Philippines actually a struggle from. To be this beaconof technological or spiritual advancements Like does kung lun have any problems who knows
The reception to John Walker in the show was really weird, not only had he done absolutely nothing to deserve it at first, he(imo) never did anything to deserve it at all, genuinely trying his best to live up to the mantle, with the scene meant to show he shouldn't have the title just making him more likable and sympathetic in my eyes.
and on the topic of Sam, while racism against him taking the mantle is a big thing both in and out of universe, i think the main issue is that...he's kind of an ass? he never gives Walker a chance to prove himself, and seems to treat the terrorists(because that's what they are, by definition) with more respect than they deserve.