The next video up on the channel will be a bit of a part 2 to this…. It will be a data video getting into super shoe efficiently and how I gauge what is working best for me and why…. Stay tuned.
Can you also mention the best shoe given the pace? Eg does an alpha fly 3 make sense for a 9min mile runner or you need to be at at least eg 8 min per mile to leverage its potential? And which would be a good shoe for a 9 min mile runner?
@@chemicalfrankie1030 there’s some older studies by saucony that found most of the older carbon plated models (2019-2020 ish) were only really effective at paces around 7 minutes per mile. Not to say they didn’t “feel” good at slower paces, but to see an increase in running economy it took on average 6’56 per mile before there was a benefit over other shoes
I’m definitely going through data in the next video, though it’s my data… but I’ll break down what I’m looking for and why… hopefully that helps you interpret your own data.
I’ve read this before as well. However… I do think all paces can benefit from carbon plated super shoes…. Though it’s diminishing returns after a certain point. Especially in 2024 where there is a range of options, many that have geometries to work with the plate as well…. Those older studies were done mostly on Vaporfly 4%.
I would put the Adios Pro 3 as the best all round super shoe. The mix of weight, speed, comfort and durability is almost unmatched. Nike might feel faster, it does for me, however i always seem to run best in the adidas. The fact that they easily last 800km+ with minimal wear means this is the super shoe i run in more than any other.
It’s a great shoe but too much shoe for anything under a 5k. Even at 5k it’s too much shoe. It’s a shoe optimized for the marathon, which it doesn’t the expertly. There is a reason the Takumi Sen exists.
Agree, I sometimes take my Prime X2 Strung to parkruns without issue - the Pro 3 is much lighter and smaller so it suits pretty much all distances. I find my Takumi Sen to be crazy narrow - I don't like running 5km in them (above that it makes your feet numb) and I'd say it doesn't suit most distances for most people.
So many things you describe, explain etc is so valuable. Weight, stability, type of foot strike, etc etc etc. In my opinion the very very best channel to get information on shoes ! Unmatched and unrivaled!
This is an absolutely fantastic video. Thank you for making it! I am about to start my training block for my first marathon; Dubai in January. As a heavier runner (90kg), I will be choosing either the AP3 or EP4 as my race shoe as a result of this video. I was considering the Edge Paris but given my weight I think these may be better so I can benefit most from the foams on these two shoes.
I bought the Takumi Sen 10 after seeing so many raving reviews and I'm currently focusing on 5ks and 10ks. After 14 miles of testing the TS10 was way too narrow for me and is definitely a firm shoe. I had bad blisters after a 6.5 mile tempo run. Ended up returning and picking up the vaporfly 3. No regrets, feels like a faster more comfortable shoe at any distance to me.
The TS10 is more of an old school racing flat with modern materials...where the VF3 is a super shoe all around. Both work well and are fast, they just emphasis different types of running dynamics. I love the TS10 as they remind me alot of the old Nike Streaks...
I started running with a Nimbus 25 (felt dead and slow), then got a Boston 12 (mind blown then the heal Lightstrike 2.0 foam collapsed early), then the Novablast 3 (lovely daily trainer), then the Adios Pro 3 ( a fantastic shoe for faster longer runs/races). Then Prime X Strung 2 (they return energy like trampolines). Im a huge fan of Adidas Lightstrike Pro Foam, firm, bouncy, impact absorbing and lasts long.
LSP is an acquired taste...but once it clicks for you (it took me a while) it is magic and becomes one of your favorite foams...it is very very good. Fully agree.
Wow cannot believe someone made a video who actually knows what they're talking about. Especially on the endorphin 4 and vaporfly 2. Keep it up and I can't wait to see more.
I had fun guessing the answer (correctly) for each category, minus the insole because I know nothing about that. It’s funny because this video reminded me of the running influencer “which super shoe am I going to run my race in?” And it’s like, of course it’s the Vaporfly 2 or alphafly. Come on now. I can’t wait to make such a video for the marine corp marathon and pump fake 3 shoes before picking the alphafly 3
I did that video last fall form NYC... hopefully this one helped non run influencers skip straight to the head of the line with 1 or 2 solid picks! I look forward to your jokes and angry shouting as you choose the AF3 as well.
I can totally agree with the super shoes for heavier runners: Adios Pro is really good, Cielo X1 is superb for me, I used it for all my races this year + a good amount of training miles all between 04:20 and 04:50, but I think is brilliant at even slow paces like 05:30 for daily miles or easy days.
Thank you for another fantastic video! Super informative and a great resource for any runner! As a heavier runner (90 kg and 186 cm) I have personally found the following anecdotal evidence in regards to super shoes: For some context, as a South African and Comrades runner, we tend to do (between Jan - June) aprox 6/7 40+ km runs, 4/5 50+ km runs and a 60 km longrun. Most are done at an easier effort (so no plated shoes), but quite a few are done at a medium/higher effort and for all those I go plated. For longer runs and a Down Comrades I would definitely go with the Alphafly. I had the AF1 and it might be my favorite all around shoe of all time. The AF3 launched too late for me this year, but it was a very popular option at this year’s Comrades and I have heard just great things about the shoe. I love the VF, had the Next 4% and about 5 pairs of the VF 2, did a lot of marathon and ultra distances in them, always a great shoe, but for a heavier runner I prefer the AF. This year I went with the Asics Metaspeed Sky for Comrades and I was super impressed with the result. For me, it is not as fast as the AF or VF, but it is super light and runs effortless. So for more hilly runs, like the Up run, I find it to be a fantastic option for a heavier runner. I recently bought the Adidas Prime Strung V2 on sale, fun shoe and a good training shoe, but does not have the performance of the above plated shoes. But might also be an option for the heavier runner. Have a few heavier friends who run in the Adizero Pro 3 and they all rave about the shoe, so as you mentioned in the video this might also be a fantastic option for the heavier runner. Sorry, this reply got way too long 😂 But again, thank you for the great videos!
Think about if I had t tackle Comrades... it would come down to the AF3 or the Superblast 2 for me...it would really depend on how prepared I felt for it. I've done ALOT in Vaporflys...but I don't think my beloved VF3 would make the short list of race shoes for Comrades.... That is an amazing race for sure. Some very unique needs in it as well. Thank you for watching as always!
I am enjoying the TS 10 and AP3. The AP3 is particularly remarkable because it’s so not new. For reference I put 650km into my first AP3 before retiring them because a couple of the rods were broken which made them wonky. They were mellowed out but still really good until the end. 90+ kg runner. I think there is exactly one super shoe in the trail category: the adidas Terrex Speed Ultra. It’s the first trail shoe that really seems like it took the learnings of road super shoes and used that tech to build a trail race shoe from first principles. It very much seems to be related to the Adios Pro 3 and Takumi Sen 10.
The story around the Terrex Speed Ultra is that Tom Evans wanted a Boston 12 for the trail...but then they gave him and AP3 for the trail and he agreed that was better. It definitly seems like the most "super" of the trail shoes at the moment. Whether that is a a good thing or not...the trail community is still debating. We will see how time gets on at UTMB this year...I'm curious. The Terrex Speed Ultra is one of the few trail shoes I want to try...but it's not sold here in Taiwan. I'll be in the US in Sept...it's a shoe I'm going to look for.
The AP3 is a good, durable shoe but I think it is on the heavier side for a super shoe and requires good form to get the best performance out of it. The VF3 is lighter and much more forgiving when you start to fatigue - the plate/Zoom X combination really gets you up on your toes even when you’re tired.
I agree. You need to remember the AP3 is over 2 years old, its development is over 3. It’s an old shoe right now and 2 generations behind the VF3, AF3 and Evo 1. It speaks to the quality of the shoe they it is STILL relevant right now. As fast as things change in running shoes, not only is it relevant, it’s one of the top 2 or 3 super shoes still. Adidas knows they need to get the AP4 right… so far it looks good…. I cannot wait to test them.
AP4 needs to shave a bit of weight without changing the ride too much and have a better upper that works for more people. Lose the stupid, pointless loops and use normal eyelets. I don't think it needs to radically change the foam technology to the bespoke EVO 1 technology to be successful.
I do not think adidas need to change to a different plastic midsole material or the really exotic carving the midsole from a blank technique in order to achieve a lower weight. Firstly I believe there are lighter textiles that adidas can use for the upper. There is potential to remove material from underneath the midfoot without changing much of anything. They can also scalop the top and bottom foam like with the Terrex Speed Ultra. Rubber is the heaviest material on the shoe. There is thicker rubber than necessary on the AP3 outsole. These are a race shoe and the rubber is completely fine after 650km on mine. The limiting factor is breaking the rods. A few grams here and a few grams there and you have dropped 20, 30, 40 grams.
I am a “heavier runner” @ 90kg. Probably my most beloved shoe is the Vaporfly Next% in which I’ve put 700km thus far @ 4’53” average pace - not blistering, but decent. Incredible performance and tremendous durability! For sure, the shoe is close to expiry now, and I wouldn’t do any run > 10km in it at this stage of its life cycle, but I am going to try to get up to 800km. I’ll use it for shorter threshold sessions. I have an unboxed pair of Vaporfly Next% 2 waiting… Hopefully it’ll give me the same performance and durability as the Next%. Like your shoe talk btw.
Wow, that's impressive. I assume that is in the VF1 or 2? You must be light on your feet, which is a good trait for a runner...durability like that in a VF, even for a 70kg runner, is impressive. Thank you for watching the content!
For shorter races I recommend Saucony Sinister. No plate, but healthy stack of super foam and super light. You can achieve max cadence possible in them.
My first super shoe was actually a Super-trainer. The Nike Zoom Fly 2 Flyknit. Got it as a Christmas gift in 2019. used it for my first ever half marathon in 2023. It has been through 400km prior to retirement.
@@SagasuRunning I still miss it to this very day! I broke the sub 7:15 mile in those shoes. Currently in the Boston 12 but it still doesn't hit the same :(
@@SagasuRunning I have around 540kms in these shoes, love them but its just not as exciting as the zoom flys... took the b12s on a 40km LSD run too, and even some steep hill repeats for a 10k..250m total EG rip
On race day I’m reaching for the Alphafly 3, I will say though of all of the brands the build quality on adidas is the best. I’ve run 7-800ks in my Boston 12s and like you I always clean my shoes. They look almost brand new still. Any Nike shoes that I’ve had that creep over 250-300ks look like they were in the titan sub when it imploded. I’ve had to shoe glue multiple pairs of Nike shoes. Have had no such experience in any of my adidas from the adios pro 3, Boston 12s and the prime x strung 2 which I use for long runs. That being said Nikes feel faster and better fresh. For training I think it’s hard to beat adidas
Adidas has great build quality, especially in their 2024 shoes. The TS10 is remarkably constructed and finished. I look forward to the AP4! Nike's build quality has come a long way in the past 3 years...but still has issues here and there. The AF3 feels so fragile as far as build quality...but it is proving it is not.
Very very useful, a section for toe box width could help, for ex endo are quite accommodating also Hope a similar video for super trainers, daily trainers, max cushioned etc will follow :D
I already have one for Daily Trainers, linked in the video description. My focus on the channel moving forward will be primarily on daily trainers and super shoes, the occasional performance trainer...trail shoes and some track spikes....
Adios Pro 3 for me. I actually find it much less fiddly lacewise than the Boston 12. And I love the Boston 12. Adore it. Adios Pro 3 blows it into the weeds. Heavy runner who's been at it since '78.
About the heavier runner case: Yes, Supershoes are not designed for heavier runners but as a heavy runner, I find that they do work for me as well. I am heavier but I am not as fast as those runners so forces the foam experience is similar in the end. Agree though some shoes work better than others and durability might be different so heavier runners should curb the lifetime expectations vs a light runner. I have my 10K and HM PR in Vaporfly 2 and Marathon PR in Alphafly 1. 5K in Takumi Sen 8.
Denser foams will standup to heavier runners better...but the high resiliency of super foams also will reward all of that force a heavier runner is putting into the shoe, very well. It's jsut durability will supper fast, especially in the more compressive super foams like ZoomX.
@@SagasuRunning Yeah, I guess we agree on the durability. It is still usable for heavier runners but shoe might not last as long before foam goes flat or even outsole rubber wears out.
Great content! I though for sure you would pick the endorphin pro for the best all around! My 8th grade son is runs cross country and is on the faster end, usually placing top 3. He found the vaporfly 3 wayyy too unstable for cross country. He loved the 2's so we assumed the 3's would be great. He transitioned to the endorphin pro 4' and those work better for him while running cross country.
I know the VF2 and Vf3 are popular XC (California) options...but the idea of running XC in them makes my ankles hurt and I've run in VFs for a LONG time. Though if you can't wear spikes and have alot of hard surfaces in the XC courses there aren't many better options. Running XC in EP4s though. That's alot of shoe for that. Glad he found what is working for him! Thank you for the kind words on the content. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
@SagasuRunning yes! We are in PA hilly and grassy, looking back I think the best option would have been tracking down another pair of VF 2, those are his all time favorite shoes
Interesting. Is he not allowed to run in spikes? Or are the courses mixed surface? What are the other kids on the team running in? I grew up in upstate NY and know those conditions well.
@SagasuRunning yes he does have spikes! But quite a few of the courses are mixed terrain. He asks his coaches opinion when they walk the course if he should use spikes or not. It's usually 50/50
Got it. I’m glad the EP4 works for him. I’d personally pick the VF3 for anything on a mixed surface as the waffle forefoot outsole has great grip off-road (for a super shoe).
Currently training for my 2nd marathon this coming Nov. As a bigger runner, I always prefer something soft and comfortable that gives me lots of protection over a longer time on feet. At the moment, I have a Hoka Cielo X1 I am planning to race with. But am also looking for the possibility to try a pair of New Balance SC Elite V4.
If anyone is in the Charlotte, NC area: at Charlotte Running Company, we do an event every year called “Let’s Go Fast” and all the major brands come with demo’s of their racing models. We just had this years, but next summer we will be back!
@@SagasuRunning takes a lot of coordination with the local reps and brands to get them all here on the same day for a few hours with a full set of demo shoes. Diadora had to overnight their set. We had Nike, Adidas, Saucony, NB, Mizuno, Asics, Diadora, Altra, Hoka, Brooks and On!
Love your reviews and the technical aspect you add to the reviews. Hope you going to review the new Puma Nitro Elite 3? The Puma I chose it over the Nike Alphafly 3 and the Asics Edge Paris - a good allrounder for various paces, similar plate placement to the Asics edge paris. I would chose the Saucony Pro 3 over the Saucony Pro 4's, seemed a little more responsive than the newer version.
As I talked about in this video, I won't eb picking up the DNE3. I did go try it on and it's very much not for me. Not remotely in the same league as the Vaporfly 3, Alphafly 3 or Takumi Sen 10 in use case, foam, fit or feel on foot. I enjoyed the VN3 alot...but think I'm done with Puma for 2024...I'll see if they change anything in 2025... The thing that makes the EP4 so good to be is the inclusion of PWRRUN HG. PWRRUN PB, on it's own, is a decent performance training foam...but isn't up to par with the top three super foams currently, PWRRUN HG is. I don't understand why Saucony abandoned it su quickly in the Endorphin Elite 2.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks for the feedback. The puma takes awhile to break in. I have read a few reviews where they say its close to their top carbon plated shoe. I suppose different shoes suit different people (foot strike, pace, weight etc) :)
At Age 68 in Ironman Kona 2022 I ran a 4:14 marathon in the Alpha Fly 1with no quad pain although I did notice calf and hamstring tension at the end. After a recent 1/2 marathon in my Saucony endorphins, 6 mile downhill, my quads are painful. Does the Alpha fly 3 have similar cushioning to the alpha fly 1?
I am rotating my race shoes between the Adidas Pro3,(a local half marathon and a 10K), VP3 (Chicago marathon, Kyoto marathon), Saucony Pro3 ( Hong Kong standard Chartered half marathon and some 10K)and Asics metaspeed Edge Paris (Boston Marathon). It is hard to say which is bad. because they are all GREAT! I feel the Pro3 and the Metaspeed Edge Paris are faster than the other two.Saucony Pro 4 is the most comforter and versatile (also the best looking) among 4. The VP3 can do everything well but I hope Nike could reinforce the insole on the toe part so I can have more bounce and protection to my fore foot.
We do have a ton of great options out there in super shoes (my next video will touch on this)...It more comes down to what you feel more comfortable in. The MSEP is definitely the fastest shoe of 2024.
I definitely had a good laugh seeing the best stable shoe was the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4, followed by the best for custom orthotics being the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4, and then the best for heel strikers was also the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4. If you're a heel striker that needs a stable shoe and uses custom orthotics, the stars have aligned for you!🤣 As for me, the AP3 is doing great in my tempo runs and leave me feeling I could run longer still (little wonder as it's built for that and I'm definitely underusing it😄). Mighty curious what Adidas will do with the AP4.🤞
What can I say? Saucony has built a "everyman" supershoe, that ticks alot of boxes that other super shoes don't. I actually think your scenario above isn't that uncommon out there....therefore EP4. I'm curious if the AP4 will have the durability and utility of the AP3... it all depends on how much Evo 1 DNA they bring into it... 🧐
Vaporfly 2 is for me the only super shoe I would class as a cheat shoe, and the one I compare new shoes against! At 450km it's toast but still holds up against my Takumi Sen 9 at 5k which has just stole the pb from VF2. I must be a more minimal, nimble supershoe fan too.
I think the EP4 will also be the answer to this due to it being able to accommodate a larger volume. But what would be the friendliest supershoe for wide footers?
Likely, the EP4...haha. It's not a wide shoe but is the widest option in super shoes. Again, super shoes are race fits and narrow...but wide foot friendly. Altra does make a carbon shoe now, that is supposed to be ok...but beyond that Saucony will be you best bet.
@@colinbclark I did touch on it in the heavier runner area. Super shoes are race shoes and are simply not meant for endless running. If I get 150mi of racing out of a pair I’m happy…. Then another 150-200+ of training…. All good.
Great video! The only type of shoe you didn't review is for the runner who cares purely about enjoyment. Not speed, not durability, but just a "fun" shoe. I assume it would probably be something a la Prime X, Cielo X1, etc.
Honestly, for me...it's the Vaporfly 3. I've run (extensively) in every version of the Vaprofly and I STILL get butterflies when i put them on because I know I'm going to have an amazing run/workout/race. The AF3 is a close second followed by the Takumi Sen 10 right now....for similar reasons.
I don't think you need it...if the B12 has life left in it. However, if there are deals on the AP3 that you see...it's worth picking up as it's a shoe you will likely love given the SL2/B12 combo...
Fantastic video, thank you! I'm actually enjoying the adios pro 3 even if they crash my toes a bit 🤣 Where would you position or to whom would you recommend the NB sc elite v3? Thank you!
The upper and the fit of an Adizero shoe can be problematic. I've had all the problems with the AP3 upper, but crushed toes is not one of them (and that is usually the main issue I have with race uppers). Where would I position the NB SC Elite v3? I wouldn't. It's not evne in the conversation. Nor is the v4.
Well, the only correct answer is: get them all! I'm really splitted which shoe I will wear for the upcoming Berlin Marathon... the EP4 is too boring, the feidian ultra 4 is too aggressive and gets unstable if you cant maintain the form anymore, but still nice... xtep 160x 3.0 Pro too aggressive... SC Elite v4 doesnt feel fast at all but is very pleasent, Vaporfly 3 is a close contender ... Adios Pro 3 has the worst fit of all shoes... like every shoe its the only shoe I run regular blisters or get midfootpain after a longer time in the shoe, but the midsole is a dream... Edge Sky Paris is also a close contender... Endorphin Elite is super super stable even more than the EP4 but its so insanely firm... I ran it for a 10k last week, got my PR in the Elite but daaaamn thats such a firm shoe! So basically... Vaporfly 3, Edge Sky Paris, Feidian Ultra 4 or SC Elite v4 for comfort. When I hear you talking about the Vaporfly 3 I cant go wrong.? But is it good for slower paces like down to 6min/km? (you never know what happens maybe I break and have to go super slow) Edge Sky Paris will arrive next week, is it much firmer than the Vaporfly 3? thank you
Well...yes...get them all...but at the same time I'm trying to be more focused on what I like over here...🤣 It sounds like you may want to try the EE2... I've ehard that firmness is now gone with their "incredifoam" (or whatever they call it). The VF3 has a BIG sweet spot. As long as it's cushioned enough for you (especially at the end of the marathon, ZoomX is a soft foam) you'll be good. It handles a range of paces well, including 6:00/km just fine. As I said...BIG sweet spot.
@@SagasuRunning I already tested the elite 2 its not only soft, its basically like a sponge. Compared to it New balance 1080 is firm. But then it snaps back like Lightstrike pro, basically a super soft Lightstrike pro. They really cooked something with that foam. It wont help I will have to take the vf3 out for 30k run to decide... But its so beautiful in its volt color... I just want to admire it and dont ruin it 🥺
@Chungdol I’m hearing all sorts of things about the new Saucony foam… mostly from big Saucony fans and it’s mixed at best. I don’t really get their product strategy at the moment. It seems like they are throwing darts at a board and hoping for the best… 🤷🏼♂️ The Volt AF3/VF3 don’t do it for me at first… but seeing them in person really changed that.
@@SagasuRunning exactly! I got it for free from tech rep as written on insta, really really Thank you again it was your words and knowledge 🤗 But in perso it looks amazing. As I ran the elite 2 in preorder I was surprised... But its not for me, I like it soft but not that softness I also have huge durability concerns. Same with tech rep from ON running drops "well around 150-200km" as it would be the most normal thing on this planet... Weird time
150-200km is even a low durability expectation for me…. And I’m ok with a shoe only being good for 250km… Saucony 2025 will be interesting (and disappointing) for many based on what I have seen. Again, some very strange product choices over there.
Nobody breaks down subject matter like you do. You state your opinion then back it up with facts. I have yet to disagree with any of your views on shoes. It’s very helpful when making a purchase decision. I’m grateful.
I have four of them and want to use all of them, so for 5k, I use takumi sen 10, for 10K, I use vaporfly 3, for half marathons, Adios Pro 3, for marathons, Alphafly 3 :D
Very thoughtful video as usual! One question: Would you choose the AF3 over the AF1 (fresh pair) for a flat marathon (Berlin) and why? I've ran my last 5-6 marathons all in the AF1 and PB'd in every one of them. But the AF3 is intriguing to me. I especially hope that I can benefit from the higher drop and stability in the later miles.
100% yes…. But I never liked the AF1. The AF3 would be my first choice for a course like Berlin, without a doubt in my mind. I’ll have my review of them up on the channel in the next week or two.
Thanks for the great insight, I was aiming to get my first super shoe for the Cape Town Marathon in October and this narrowed it down perclfectly. One question of you don't mind answering with regards to shoe choice for my case ? It might be over my budget at the time for a supershoe, what would you recommend as a cheaper alternative for the marathon distance (First choice would be the Pro 3) ? I'm aiming for just under 5min/km, mid foot striker, 73kg. Running in the SL2 now, love them but destroys ankle bone with the high collar, i wont make the distance in them with the pain on the ankle. Previously had Novablast 3, meh felt like I had to heelstrike a lot more and I slap the ground with my forefoot. Boston 11, too hard and dull, knee issues. Gliderides, great. Thanks!
Shoes and other kit is expensive down South. Is it tariffs or VAT, I don’t understand it. Anyway, if you the AP3 is too expensive then maybe the Saucony Speed would be a good option.
The best budget alternative is going to be a shoe you already have that is comfortable, whatever that is. However the short list for me would be the AP3 and EP4 from the sounds of it...likely the EP4 (since you find the B13 dull).
For Saucony endorphin pro vs the Nike alphafly, would the endorphin pro be significantly slower than the alphafly in the marathon distance for somebody in the 3:15-3:30 range?
If you can hold your form in the last 10k the AFV3 will reward you, but if you start to fight the pods, it can get clunky (landing behind the pods). That's where the user friendly nature of the Endo Pro would shine. I've run 3:30 in the AF V1 (last 5-6k was torture on the calves), 3:23 in the AF V2 (last 10k I really felt the bulk of the shoe), Sub 3:15 in the AF V3 and I didn't think about my feet once! Got my 1st negative split and BQ. Now part was stacking marathon blocks and lack of injuries, but the AF V3 is magical if you can hit the pods without trying.
The AF3 is the better and faster shoe in most cases…. But the AP3 is not fan behind, especially for a two year old shoe…. And it’s easier to find and buy. Thank you for the kind words on the content. Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
2 Questions: Whats the most durable supershoe? And could you fit costum insoles into the vaporfly 3, the metaspeed sky paris or the puma deviate nitro elite 3?
EP4 or the AP3 are more durable. Custom insoles in the VF3 may work if you can manage to get the insole out without destroying the shoe. No go in the MSEP due to the volume of the upper. The DNE3 is doable.
If I was given the choice to have an unlimited amount of shoes from this list: 1) Adios Pro 3 for M 2) VF3 HM and down. 3) I have the AF 3, there is magic in that shoe. I need more than 2 runs in it to figure out its true placing.
Good list. I wish the AP3 was actually faster for me...though i expect the AP4 to be that. The VF3/AF3 combo is outstanding and you can't go wrong. magic in both of them.
I'm kinda curious about your take on the endorphin elite. I tried it on foot a few days ago and it felt amazing. The endorphin pro certainly seems to be less pure performance oriented, the comfort is amazing, but the elite has some next level foam.
I have tried on the EE1 and think PWRRUN HG is a great foam. However, the geometry of the shoe felt way off for me (jogging in store and on a treadmill briefly) and the upper is awful (that midfoot band doesn't work for my high volume foot). I don't like shoes with extreme rocker in them and the EE1 definitely has that. I've not seen or held the EE2, but have discussed it with a local Taiwanese run infuencer, who is a fan of the brand, and based on his comments (SUPER soft!, more than ZoomX) I was intrigued in their new foam but doubt I'll try it as he said the upper and fit is very similar. Ultimately though, I'm never going to race in a Saucony and have no need for it. Saucony seems to be developing in odd directions right now, especially with their foams. PB is a tank, HG is very good...do they need another foam? I thought HG was the end-all-be-all? It feels like grasping at straws to me. 🤷🏼♂️ The EP4 works so well because it's a "normal" shoe fundamentally. The combo of PWRRUN PB and HG is well done and it's a great mix of performance, durability and ease of use.
Hi Chris! Great work as always! One question, please: I’m running Valencia marathon in December, and I’m trying to do it under 3h30m. My height is 1m85cm and I weight roughly 82kg, and I’m a heel striker. My plan was to run with the Ascis Superblast 2, because as you told, I consider it a super shoe as well. Do you consider that for my pace and physical structure I should look at any other super shoe?
I’d look into the Adios Pro 3, or maybe the Adios Pro 4 (which should be out my then in some form). You will appreciate the carbon and lighter shoe in the last 15-10k of the marathon. The SB2 is likely OK… but I would try some carbon shoes… and see how they feel.
Have you tried the Endorphin Elite? Being a Saucony fanboy at my roots I was all in for this shoe but turned out to aggravate an existing injury. I recently switched to Asics just because they work for me best as a heavy supinator and any shoe that would be biased laterally would give me pain especially these with mild pronation support
I’ve only tried it on in the store and jogged in place but knew it wasn’t for me. I don’t like the upper fit, especially twit midfoot band and I REALLY don’t like the extreme toe rocker. The only other shoe I can think of with a more extreme forefoot rocker is the old Metaspeed Sky +… I’m not a fan of overly rockered shoes. I do like the foam though. PWRRUN HG is the magic that makes the EP4 work as well as it does .
I’m not a fan. There is a reason I don’t cover NB on this channel. Trying on the SC Elite v4 and Rebel v4 earlier this eye was enough for me to write the brand off until they have massive design and engineering changes… I’ve discussed it in a handful of videos, mostly my shoe talk videos.
Thanks for this shoe review. May I know is this shoe good for flat feet overpronation. I am using Soucenny endorphin pro 3 now. If not what do you recommend? Pace is 5.30. Running FM. Thanks in advance.
My question is about the Takumi Sen. I have the Takumi Sen 8 that I bought for $80 a little while ago. I love the shoe and have run many races from 5k to half marathon in them. I have never run a marathon, though plan to next summer. I know an Adios Pro 3 would be a better shoe for the full marathon, but I am curious about your thoughts as to the biggest drawbacks of a Takumi Sen at a full marathon distance. Though I know the durability is high on the Pro 3, the $250 seems hard to justify for a running shoe in my current situtation. I am also not overly concerned about maximizing every ounce of performance out of my shoe on race day. With how marathon racing shoes were just a few years ago, the Takumi Sen can't be that bad as long as I have run long distances in the shoe while training and made sure I'm comfortable in it right?
If you are comfortable in them and have the durability in your body for the distance you'll be totally fine. The Takumi Sen is basically a racing flat of old with modern materials. I actually find the TS10 very effective and comfortable for marathon pace running.
I had 2 pair of the Takumi Sen 8 and only just recently retired the second. (I never had the 9.) The upper is kinda like a plastic bag but they were really good. I mostly used them for speed work but did do up to half marathon in them. The Takumi Sen 10 is better than the 8: the upper is better and the full-length fish spatula rods make the 10 more stable than the 8. I used to run marathons and ultras in the Nike Streak 6 and 7 before the Vaporfly 4%. The TS 8 is more cushioned than Streak that but what I found limiting about the TS 8 is that unless the road is really pristine it makes my lower leg stabilizing muscles get tired which eventually is a problem. I wish I still had the Vaporfly 4% to revisit because I wonder how different that really was from the reimagined Takumi Sen from the 8 through 10.
It’s awful. See the video linked in the description for nearly 20mins of me complaining about it. However…. The midsole… is so good. If you find the right sock (which I did) and a strategically placed band-aid or two…. Then you can get around the awful upper. The good thing is the Evo 1 upper is excellent, and the AP4 upper looks very sinker to it. So 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻
I run exclusively in zero drop shoes with a wide toebox. My daily trainers are the Escalante 4 and ST-5. For very long runs I use the vanish tempo. I’m looking for a super shoe with a wide toe box. It doesn’t need to be zero drop but I would like it to be 5 mm or less. I’m looking for the shoe that will provide the maximum benefit to my running economy over the marathon distance. What do you recommend?
The Vanish Carbon is really your only current option for that. Nothing else is out there. I’m not a fan of wide toe boxes (I want a more race like fit, especially on a super shoe)…. So by a super shoes’s nature they have a more constraining race fit. That being said I will be covering and interesting product line, starting in September, that is a natural shaped shoe. I’m quite excited about them. There will be a racer in the family (eventually)… all I can say at the moment. I come from barefoot running and strongly believe ins thing feet and natural flex in shoes… but not the fit of them.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the quick reply! Do you think the vanish carbon really provides enough of an improvement in running economy to be competitive with the top super shoes and worth the high price? The SC Elite v4 has a relatively low drop and I’ve read that the toebox is relatively wide for a super shoe… do you think it could be a good option? Excited to hear about the new product line that you’ll be covering in September!
I like Vanish Carbon a lot. The foam reminds me of LSP. I don’t race with it though. I’m not strong enough for zero drop shoes. I use the VC for short distances to train to get stronger with them.
Honestly, no. It’s not in the same league. I know it has its fans, but it’s not anywhere near the top tier super shoes, even the mid tier. The NB SCEv4 is way too wide (midsole and contact patch), way too soft and has a sloppy fitting messy upper…. That is wide, for a super shoe, but overall the shoe is not great (IMO). It is a better shoe than the Vanish Carbon though…. But that isn’t saying much.
I'm a big fan of the Peg Plus (lots of content on it on the channel) and while it CAN compete with a proper super shoe (see my supershoe efficiency data video) it's not a super shoe. It has become my go-to workout shoe though...excellent shoe.
I would never race in the PX2S…. Not that it matters but I choose to respect the 40mm stack height rule. It’s also WAY more shoe than I want to run in as well. However, people make it work… there is no rule saying you can’t as a non-elite runner… run it what works for you and feels the best.
@@SagasuRunning I'm concerned about the weight leading fatigue in race conditions. I also have the superblast but I prefer the lightstrike foam so much more! :(
This is regarding the hoka cielo x1. I know you stated that it would be great for heavier people as I am over 200lbs. Would it be a great option for heavy person and heel striker at the same time?
Yes, there is a lot of heel in that shoe. There will be some instability to get used to in them initially, its a massive stack of foam, but the transition will be quick.
about 70% of the elites are heelstrikers, only 3 % forefoot strikers (study at 2017 world marathon championships). you make it sound like they would not have "performance" or an "efficient stride". I never tried the Cielo X but I own or have tried all the others (some in previous versions) and my heel striking has never been an issue. The upper of the VF 2 was too tight (but v1 and 3 are fine), the Adios Pro 3 has heel slip and gives me blisters (v2 was fine) but the medial bias helps for my stability needs while it may be too much for supinators, the AF hurts in my arch, there are so many factors that the best shoe is always very individual and will vary greatly between individuals.
I'm painting broad brush strokes with these videos...but they are definitely strong starting points for people to begin to find what works from them. Heel strikers can run in any super shoe (as I said)...it is less about performance and more about durability...which is a massive factor for many in a expensive super shoe.
@SagasuRunning you are actually relatively fine in your stroke, amongst the shoetubers I follow I would say only Alex Filiti differentiates even more in some videos, and I appreciate you going into different factors. I would just add that at the end of the day its a combination of many factors that determine the individually best shoe. Maybe that is just my perception but what put me off a little was that I felt an underlying theme of inferiority of heelstrike, that is quite common (and others show it much more, I didn't perceive that from you previously), which is just not scientifically funded and wrong, but also leads some runners to injury risk by forcing themselves into a strike that is unnatural for their anatomy.
Hi! How would you test which one is the best for a marathon? I have the AF1, the AP3, TS10 and VF2. I ran my first full in the AF1 and ran a couple of half marathons in the AP3 and VF2. I am 195lbs (89kg), aiming for 4h, middle to forefoot striker. I fear the VF2 is a bit too mushy and unstable so I am keeping it for 10km races and below. TS10 would be too thin for my weight. So I am left with AF1 and AP3. Would you have an idea how to pick the best for the races? Specifics long run testing? Video analysis? Thanks,
My next video will be a data video around super shoe efficiency and how I judge what is “fastest”. Stay tuned. I’d go with the AP3 if I was in your shoes…. However, go with what feels fastest on your long runs.
@SagasuRunning thanks for the reply, and I am looking forward to your next video. I had looked at my form on a treadmill with a physical therapist, and he concluded that the AF1 were better as my feet were going higher on the kick back. I did however got a noticeably higher cadence with the AP3. I will test them at marathon pace in long run sessions and see! Thanks again.
I own Endorphin pro 1 and I don’t feel any help during fast running as compared to Alphafly 1! Is Endorphin pro 4 much better in terms of getting a kick back when compared to pro 1?
I just ran a 5k pr in the asics magic speed 3, which is the only carbon plated shoe I've used. Bought them recently for $100 on sale. I suspect the carbon plate in a true super shoe would be stiffer and the foam slightly more responsive than the magic speed, yes? Would I notice a difference as a 80kg 17 min 5k runner? The foams in these shoes today are incredible compared to shoes from when I last ran marathons a decade ago.
The Magic Speed 3 2as a great shoe. The CF plate in there is actually nearly the same as what is in a Metaspeed, very stiff. The difference is the foam. FFBlast+ is a trianing foam, far from a super foam. But the ride of that shoe was fast and very good. You would notice a proper super foam if you stepped up to a Metaspeed Paris. The shoe will be even lighter and even more responsive. Yes, foams and running shoes have changed quite a bit in the past 10 years, especially in the past 7.
How much better would you say the AF3 is over the EP4 for the marathon distance? Deciding on getting one of those for a marathon or waiting for the Endorphin Elite 2
Alot...the EP4 is great but Lightstrike Pro is a much better foam with much more performance, something that you would notice in the final 10k of a marathon. It really comes down to which one is more comfortable. The upper on the AP3 is awful and can really be rough on your feet, but it's work troubleshooting because the midsole is that good.
Well then…. The AF3 is better in every single way… better foam (even better than LSP) better upper and fit and much more propulsive, especially on fatigued legs. I’ll have my 50mile review of the AF3 up on eqrly’osh Sept.
I just moved to an area that I’ll be running a lot on light packed dirt trails/road to light trail. Would you still consider the vaporfly and/or endorphin pro 4 for that kind of surface transition?
For a super shoe… yes, the VF3 over the EP4… though saving the super shoes for the hard surfaces and the trainers for everything else is the better way.
If u happen to have Nike tempo next% it will be literally miles better for heelstrikers. Firm heel is the key. I have 3.06 in tempo, then 3.25 in Sauc ep3, 3.26 in vf2. This year under 3h is very likely. I have tested Sauc. EE and. PrimeX1 and I am convniced the Tempo is 15min faster on race day. 259g is no drawback compared to the insane benefit. My bet for 2nd best would be an Adidas LSP shoe. How i wish that Tempo would make a comeback for us all. Durability is not great, I have destroyed 5 pairs of them. 2 flat air pods under 500km, and forefoot Zoomx layer in shreds And rubber splits before 800kms. If u have em, save that treasure for race day.
The Tempo is nearly 4 years old now and was never intended as a race shoe. It's not relevant in a 2024 conversation. Though, I agree...it was a tank for heel strikers.
Possibly. I find PWRRUN HG, the foam in that shoe, rather soft and it could be unstable for some foot strikes. Also the forefoot geometry is rather extreme in that shoe and could cause problems for some. Lastly the upper fit is very race fit and does not offer any extra room. The may all be fine for some heavier runners but in general I thing the EP4 is a much better and more consistent option. The EE2 is absolutely not for a heavier runner. The foam is way too soft and unstructured and likely won’t last at all.
@@SagasuRunning I thought HG is firmer than PB? I don’t have EE so I don’t know. I’m just going off of reviews. Anyway, rockers tend to benefit heavy runners for faster turnover because they don’t benefit from the same propulsion as lighter runners, although they can bend the carbon with more force to get that pop. I thought the rocker is one of the reasons AP3 is recommended for heavy runners. It has pretty pronounced rocker, it’s a late rocker though compared to Speed Roll which arches earlier.
@alainmaiquez7475 HG feels softer and much of resilient to my feet, in the EP4. I’ve tried the EE on and found it medium firmness, but definitely softer than PB. Saucony has confirmed that many times. The engineering on the midsole of the EE makes it feel firm, but once it breaks in (and HG does breaking) it softens out quite a bit. You are right about the AP3 rocker. It is very late. However the rocker in the EE is almost like a cliff, similar to the Metaspeed Sky+…. It’s very extreme and not for everyone. Even if you are ok with the foam and rocker…. The fit of the shoe is very much a standard super shoe race fit. So it’s unlikely that will work. The AP3 works much better for more people.
I am a 210 lbs heel striker. I am running a marathon for the second time this year and paid close attention. But I fall in between 2 categories i'm heavy and a heel striker. Trying to hit sub 4 😢. Should I go endorphin or adidas adios?
The EP4 will give you a but more support and structure in the heel while the AP3 is a better foam and ultimately will likely last you longer and give better performance. The AP3 upper is a bit problematic though...the EP4 fits well though. I'd try them on if I could...
'ring ring"...."this is New Balance calling,....you know us, we're only second to Nike and have 13% of the running shoe market in the U.S., what did we do to you?"
The 2024 New Balance design and engineering is all that needs to be said. That’s what they did. Until things change drastically…. I won’t be paying much attention to the brand.
They can break… but it’s rare. LIghtstirke Pro is a dense material and protects them mostly. Obviously, you will put alot of loading them over time so overall turbidity will be lower than a lighter runner. But the performance will be there.
Definitely. I'm 6'2" & a teeny bit heavier than you. Boston 12 makes me grin like the Village Idiot. I changed the way I lace them because I have a ridiculously high instep. Heel locked with a runners knot & the shoe just disappears on my foot. Always happy to reach for the B12. Pair it with the Adios Pro 3 + you'll be golden..
“Bad” is relative. You can’t escape the forces of running, high stack shoes just transfer them up the legs (to the knees and hips mainly). Also running only in high stack shoes will change your stride to some degree. It’s best to mix a range of shoes to make sure you are giving your body a range of training stimulus.
That’s a decent range. You could do worst. Specially the Nimbus and Superblast… there is a lot of overlap there. Something like an Adidas SL2 and Superblast world be a better, more well rounded combo.
@@SagasuRunning my current rotation are puma deviate 2 , gel nimbus 26 and noosa tri 16 Planning on only 2 shoes Superblast 2 and noosa tri 16. I wanna ditch plated shoes in the future though
😂😂😂 Saucony has really made the “Everyman” super shoe…. And they have done it brilliantly with just enough tech to make it perform while still feeling “normal”. I don’t give Saucony props often… but they deserve it here.
Neither wise nor narrow feet… but I do have high developed arches and a high volume foot. Across the board all the 2024 NB have sloppy fitting uppers, poor material choices and wonky last built on top of midsoles that are WAY too wide and soft.
@io-rj6sk It included all NB shoes. I will not be covering them the rest of the year and unless there is a major shift in their design and engineering (which is unlikely) also not in 2025.
The one that is the most comfortable. But if you are looking to buy one I'd start with the EP4 if you are going for a PR or the SB2 if you are looking to complete it comfortably.
I agree that the Endo Pro series is a great shoe for training and racing at a lower entry cost for a cabin plated race shoe. I put over 350 miles on the EP2, relegated for only treadmill use now, and 75 on my EP3. Very durable shoes and a nice balance of comfort to go with the performance. The Endo Pro 3 is much faster than v2 and holds my 10K PR, even over the Sen 8.
@@SagasuRunning I tested a pair on the treadmill at my local running store and they felt great. The one issue in the short rest were the overly stretchy laces.
Ya, the laces suck and the bootie upper is not my favorite thing. I replaced the places with a non stretch pair from an old Metaspeed…. Night and day difference in lockdown. Those are the laces you actually see on the shoe in the video.
Nope, I'm not a fan...too wide, too mushy, sloppy fitting upper...overall a total mess. So much so it's one of the two NB shoes (Rebel v4 is the other) that have caused me to ignore the brand until they make some massive design and engineering changes.
Not sure if it qualifies as a super shoe because of its heavy weight and its illegal, but the Adidas Prime X 2.0 is another good option for heavy marathon runners. The thick lightstrike pro midsole soaks up impacts but the two carbon plates add a lot more stability than you would expect from such a tall shoe. My only gripes are the upper isn't very comfortable, the heel is pretty narrow for a heel-striker, and it feels a little sketchy making tight turns.
I have called that shoe a "hyper shoe" or, more recently a "Performance max trainer", either way, definitely not a super shoe. It's a not a sure designed for racing. It's a tech platform for Adidas and a trainer. Though, if you can get around the weight and height of the shoe...I agree it can be a valid option for heavier runners for training.
The next video up on the channel will be a bit of a part 2 to this…. It will be a data video getting into super shoe efficiently and how I gauge what is working best for me and why…. Stay tuned.
Can't wait for Part 2
Can you also mention the best shoe given the pace? Eg does an alpha fly 3 make sense for a 9min mile runner or you need to be at at least eg 8 min per mile to leverage its potential? And which would be a good shoe for a 9 min mile runner?
@@chemicalfrankie1030 there’s some older studies by saucony that found most of the older carbon plated models (2019-2020 ish) were only really effective at paces around 7 minutes per mile. Not to say they didn’t “feel” good at slower paces, but to see an increase in running economy it took on average 6’56 per mile before there was a benefit over other shoes
I’m definitely going through data in the next video, though it’s my data… but I’ll break down what I’m looking for and why… hopefully that helps you interpret your own data.
I’ve read this before as well. However… I do think all paces can benefit from carbon plated super shoes…. Though it’s diminishing returns after a certain point. Especially in 2024 where there is a range of options, many that have geometries to work with the plate as well…. Those older studies were done mostly on Vaporfly 4%.
I would put the Adios Pro 3 as the best all round super shoe. The mix of weight, speed, comfort and durability is almost unmatched. Nike might feel faster, it does for me, however i always seem to run best in the adidas. The fact that they easily last 800km+ with minimal wear means this is the super shoe i run in more than any other.
It’s a great shoe but too much shoe for anything under a 5k. Even at 5k it’s too much shoe. It’s a shoe optimized for the marathon, which it doesn’t the expertly. There is a reason the Takumi Sen exists.
I would agree it it was not for the upper hopefully they fix it in the 4
I stopped the video to guess which one he was going to say, and my bet was the AP3.
Agree, I sometimes take my Prime X2 Strung to parkruns without issue - the Pro 3 is much lighter and smaller so it suits pretty much all distances. I find my Takumi Sen to be crazy narrow - I don't like running 5km in them (above that it makes your feet numb) and I'd say it doesn't suit most distances for most people.
Halfway in and already blown away by the amount of quality information you deliver with every sentence. Awesome as always Chris!
Thank you. 🙏🏻
I have a marathon this Sunday! wish me a good luck folks.
Good luck! Which shoes are you going to run in?
Good luck. VF3?
Good luck what shoe you thinking of using? And what is your goal time?
@@SuperMrMojito Thank you! I have VF3 for race day. To break my PB I need to complete by 3:55. Anything above is added bonus.
@@SagasuRunning YES!
Love the endorphin pro 4, the "every man's" super shoe 🤙
Very much! 🤙🏻
So many things you describe, explain etc is so valuable. Weight, stability, type of foot strike, etc etc etc. In my opinion the very very best channel to get information on shoes ! Unmatched and unrivaled!
I appreciate the kind words. Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
As a heavy forefoot striker, the Alphafly v1 and v3 works magic for me as a high plate configuration. Vaporfly v1 and v3 is also great for me.
The AF3 is the real deal…. For sure. The decoupled forefoot/heel in the AF1/2 was not my thing.
This is an absolutely fantastic video. Thank you for making it! I am about to start my training block for my first marathon; Dubai in January. As a heavier runner (90kg), I will be choosing either the AP3 or EP4 as my race shoe as a result of this video. I was considering the Edge Paris but given my weight I think these may be better so I can benefit most from the foams on these two shoes.
What is your foot strike? Have you run in anything ZoomX before?
Thank you for watching. This one has been in the works for a while.
@@SagasuRunning I'd say I'm a mid-foot striker. No ZoomX yet but I am considering looking into Nike shoes in the future.
I bought the Takumi Sen 10 after seeing so many raving reviews and I'm currently focusing on 5ks and 10ks. After 14 miles of testing the TS10 was way too narrow for me and is definitely a firm shoe. I had bad blisters after a 6.5 mile tempo run.
Ended up returning and picking up the vaporfly 3. No regrets, feels like a faster more comfortable shoe at any distance to me.
The TS10 is more of an old school racing flat with modern materials...where the VF3 is a super shoe all around. Both work well and are fast, they just emphasis different types of running dynamics. I love the TS10 as they remind me alot of the old Nike Streaks...
I started running with a Nimbus 25 (felt dead and slow), then got a Boston 12 (mind blown then the heal Lightstrike 2.0 foam collapsed early), then the Novablast 3 (lovely daily trainer), then the Adios Pro 3 ( a fantastic shoe for faster longer runs/races). Then Prime X Strung 2 (they return energy like trampolines). Im a huge fan of Adidas Lightstrike Pro Foam, firm, bouncy, impact absorbing and lasts long.
LSP is an acquired taste...but once it clicks for you (it took me a while) it is magic and becomes one of your favorite foams...it is very very good. Fully agree.
Wow cannot believe someone made a video who actually knows what they're talking about. Especially on the endorphin 4 and vaporfly 2. Keep it up and I can't wait to see more.
The EP4 is the sleeper super shoe of 2024, it's so very good. The VF2 is a classic now...for a reason.
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
As a 85 kg runner, I confirm for the Adios pro 3 but only for race < as half marathon
The AP3 is a tank...LSP makes it a performance tank.
I had fun guessing the answer (correctly) for each category, minus the insole because I know nothing about that. It’s funny because this video reminded me of the running influencer “which super shoe am I going to run my race in?” And it’s like, of course it’s the Vaporfly 2 or alphafly. Come on now. I can’t wait to make such a video for the marine corp marathon and pump fake 3 shoes before picking the alphafly 3
I did that video last fall form NYC... hopefully this one helped non run influencers skip straight to the head of the line with 1 or 2 solid picks! I look forward to your jokes and angry shouting as you choose the AF3 as well.
I can totally agree with the super shoes for heavier runners: Adios Pro is really good, Cielo X1 is superb for me, I used it for all my races this year + a good amount of training miles all between 04:20 and 04:50, but I think is brilliant at even slow paces like 05:30 for daily miles or easy days.
Great to hear! Enjoy them. 🤙🏻
Thank you for another fantastic video!
Super informative and a great resource for any runner!
As a heavier runner (90 kg and 186 cm) I have personally found the following anecdotal evidence in regards to super shoes:
For some context, as a South African and Comrades runner, we tend to do (between Jan - June) aprox 6/7 40+ km runs, 4/5 50+ km runs and a 60 km longrun.
Most are done at an easier effort (so no plated shoes), but quite a few are done at a medium/higher effort and for all those I go plated.
For longer runs and a Down Comrades I would definitely go with the Alphafly. I had the AF1 and it might be my favorite all around shoe of all time. The AF3 launched too late for me this year, but it was a very popular option at this year’s Comrades and I have heard just great things about the shoe.
I love the VF, had the Next 4% and about 5 pairs of the VF 2, did a lot of marathon and ultra distances in them, always a great shoe, but for a heavier runner I prefer the AF.
This year I went with the Asics Metaspeed Sky for Comrades and I was super impressed with the result. For me, it is not as fast as the AF or VF, but it is super light and runs effortless. So for more hilly runs, like the Up run, I find it to be a fantastic option for a heavier runner.
I recently bought the Adidas Prime Strung V2 on sale, fun shoe and a good training shoe, but does not have the performance of the above plated shoes. But might also be an option for the heavier runner.
Have a few heavier friends who run in the Adizero Pro 3 and they all rave about the shoe, so as you mentioned in the video this might also be a fantastic option for the heavier runner.
Sorry, this reply got way too long 😂
But again, thank you for the great videos!
Lekker lekker lekker, mate.
South African races are the best.
Think about if I had t tackle Comrades... it would come down to the AF3 or the Superblast 2 for me...it would really depend on how prepared I felt for it. I've done ALOT in Vaporflys...but I don't think my beloved VF3 would make the short list of race shoes for Comrades....
That is an amazing race for sure. Some very unique needs in it as well.
Thank you for watching as always!
Quality content that us mere mortals needed 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Def recommend the Takumi Sen 10. Ran a 5k PB on Sunday in it
Congratulations! 💪🏻
@@SagasuRunningthank you!
I am enjoying the TS 10 and AP3. The AP3 is particularly remarkable because it’s so not new.
For reference I put 650km into my first AP3 before retiring them because a couple of the rods were broken which made them wonky. They were mellowed out but still really good until the end. 90+ kg runner.
I think there is exactly one super shoe in the trail category: the adidas Terrex Speed Ultra.
It’s the first trail shoe that really seems like it took the learnings of road super shoes and used that tech to build a trail race shoe from first principles. It very much seems to be related to the Adios Pro 3 and Takumi Sen 10.
The story around the Terrex Speed Ultra is that Tom Evans wanted a Boston 12 for the trail...but then they gave him and AP3 for the trail and he agreed that was better. It definitly seems like the most "super" of the trail shoes at the moment. Whether that is a a good thing or not...the trail community is still debating. We will see how time gets on at UTMB this year...I'm curious.
The Terrex Speed Ultra is one of the few trail shoes I want to try...but it's not sold here in Taiwan. I'll be in the US in Sept...it's a shoe I'm going to look for.
Anecdata: David Roche set a Leadville 100 course record in the Speed Ultra last weekend.
The AP3 is a good, durable shoe but I think it is on the heavier side for a super shoe and requires good form to get the best performance out of it. The VF3 is lighter and much more forgiving when you start to fatigue - the plate/Zoom X combination really gets you up on your toes even when you’re tired.
I agree. You need to remember the AP3 is over 2 years old, its development is over 3. It’s an old shoe right now and 2 generations behind the VF3, AF3 and Evo 1. It speaks to the quality of the shoe they it is STILL relevant right now. As fast as things change in running shoes, not only is it relevant, it’s one of the top 2 or 3 super shoes still.
Adidas knows they need to get the AP4 right… so far it looks good…. I cannot wait to test them.
AP4 needs to shave a bit of weight without changing the ride too much and have a better upper that works for more people. Lose the stupid, pointless loops and use normal eyelets. I don't think it needs to radically change the foam technology to the bespoke EVO 1 technology to be successful.
Adidas will have to change the foam to get the weight down, I think. They can’t reduce the outsole thickness without compromising durability.
I do not think adidas need to change to a different plastic midsole material or the really exotic carving the midsole from a blank technique in order to achieve a lower weight.
Firstly I believe there are lighter textiles that adidas can use for the upper.
There is potential to remove material from underneath the midfoot without changing much of anything. They can also scalop the top and bottom foam like with the Terrex Speed Ultra.
Rubber is the heaviest material on the shoe. There is thicker rubber than necessary on the AP3 outsole. These are a race shoe and the rubber is completely fine after 650km on mine. The limiting factor is breaking the rods.
A few grams here and a few grams there and you have dropped 20, 30, 40 grams.
Agree
Great video! I haven’t tried many shoes in this category but I found the hoka rocket x2 to be more than stable and supportive enough for me
Hoka Rocket x2 is a tank as far as stability goes.
I am a “heavier runner” @ 90kg. Probably my most beloved shoe is the Vaporfly Next% in which I’ve put 700km thus far @ 4’53” average pace - not blistering, but decent.
Incredible performance and tremendous durability! For sure, the shoe is close to expiry now, and I wouldn’t do any run > 10km in it at this stage of its life cycle, but I am going to try to get up to 800km.
I’ll use it for shorter threshold sessions.
I have an unboxed pair of Vaporfly Next% 2 waiting… Hopefully it’ll give me the same performance and durability as the Next%.
Like your shoe talk btw.
Wow, that's impressive. I assume that is in the VF1 or 2? You must be light on your feet, which is a good trait for a runner...durability like that in a VF, even for a 70kg runner, is impressive.
Thank you for watching the content!
Puma is definitely the shoe for me as a 4 hour marathoner.
I'm glad you found your shoe. Often a huge challenge. 👍🏻
For shorter races I recommend Saucony Sinister. No plate, but healthy stack of super foam and super light. You can achieve max cadence possible in them.
Great option… but the Adios 9 will be a more well rounded option. The Sinister is really a track flat… but a fast shoe if you can handle it.
@@SagasuRunning is it already out? the Adios 9
Great video. Clear concise explanations. Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words and for watching! 🤙🏻
Thumbs up for this, great content 👍
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
My first super shoe was actually a Super-trainer. The Nike Zoom Fly 2 Flyknit. Got it as a Christmas gift in 2019. used it for my first ever half marathon in 2023. It has been through 400km prior to retirement.
That was the last great Zoom Fly. I spent plenty of time in that one, even raced a 10k and a 10miler in them way back when. Found memories.
@@SagasuRunning I still miss it to this very day! I broke the sub 7:15 mile in those shoes. Currently in the Boston 12 but it still doesn't hit the same :(
I have to admit I prefer the B12…. But ya, it’s not the same at all.
@@SagasuRunning I have around 540kms in these shoes, love them but its just not as exciting as the zoom flys... took the b12s on a 40km LSD run too, and even some steep hill repeats for a 10k..250m total EG rip
On race day I’m reaching for the Alphafly 3, I will say though of all of the brands the build quality on adidas is the best. I’ve run 7-800ks in my Boston 12s and like you I always clean my shoes. They look almost brand new still. Any Nike shoes that I’ve had that creep over 250-300ks look like they were in the titan sub when it imploded. I’ve had to shoe glue multiple pairs of Nike shoes. Have had no such experience in any of my adidas from the adios pro 3, Boston 12s and the prime x strung 2 which I use for long runs. That being said Nikes feel faster and better fresh. For training I think it’s hard to beat adidas
Adidas has great build quality, especially in their 2024 shoes. The TS10 is remarkably constructed and finished. I look forward to the AP4!
Nike's build quality has come a long way in the past 3 years...but still has issues here and there. The AF3 feels so fragile as far as build quality...but it is proving it is not.
Very very useful, a section for toe box width could help, for ex endo are quite accommodating also
Hope a similar video for super trainers, daily trainers, max cushioned etc will follow :D
I already have one for Daily Trainers, linked in the video description. My focus on the channel moving forward will be primarily on daily trainers and super shoes, the occasional performance trainer...trail shoes and some track spikes....
Adios Pro 3 for me. I actually find it much less fiddly lacewise than the Boston 12. And I love the Boston 12. Adore it. Adios Pro 3 blows it into the weeds. Heavy runner who's been at it since '78.
Agree… the AP3 blows the B12 out of the water in all ways.
About the heavier runner case: Yes, Supershoes are not designed for heavier runners but as a heavy runner, I find that they do work for me as well. I am heavier but I am not as fast as those runners so forces the foam experience is similar in the end. Agree though some shoes work better than others and durability might be different so heavier runners should curb the lifetime expectations vs a light runner. I have my 10K and HM PR in Vaporfly 2 and Marathon PR in Alphafly 1. 5K in Takumi Sen 8.
Denser foams will standup to heavier runners better...but the high resiliency of super foams also will reward all of that force a heavier runner is putting into the shoe, very well. It's jsut durability will supper fast, especially in the more compressive super foams like ZoomX.
@@SagasuRunning Yeah, I guess we agree on the durability. It is still usable for heavier runners but shoe might not last as long before foam goes flat or even outsole rubber wears out.
Great content! I though for sure you would pick the endorphin pro for the best all around! My 8th grade son is runs cross country and is on the faster end, usually placing top 3. He found the vaporfly 3 wayyy too unstable for cross country. He loved the 2's so we assumed the 3's would be great. He transitioned to the endorphin pro 4' and those work better for him while running cross country.
I know the VF2 and Vf3 are popular XC (California) options...but the idea of running XC in them makes my ankles hurt and I've run in VFs for a LONG time. Though if you can't wear spikes and have alot of hard surfaces in the XC courses there aren't many better options.
Running XC in EP4s though. That's alot of shoe for that.
Glad he found what is working for him!
Thank you for the kind words on the content. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
@SagasuRunning yes! We are in PA hilly and grassy, looking back I think the best option would have been tracking down another pair of VF 2, those are his all time favorite shoes
Interesting. Is he not allowed to run in spikes? Or are the courses mixed surface? What are the other kids on the team running in?
I grew up in upstate NY and know those conditions well.
@SagasuRunning yes he does have spikes! But quite a few of the courses are mixed terrain. He asks his coaches opinion when they walk the course if he should use spikes or not. It's usually 50/50
Got it. I’m glad the EP4 works for him. I’d personally pick the VF3 for anything on a mixed surface as the waffle forefoot outsole has great grip off-road (for a super shoe).
Currently training for my 2nd marathon this coming Nov. As a bigger runner, I always prefer something soft and comfortable that gives me lots of protection over a longer time on feet. At the moment, I have a Hoka Cielo X1 I am planning to race with. But am also looking for the possibility to try a pair of New Balance SC Elite V4.
The Cielo x1 is a big bouncy handful of a shoe… but such a great option for bigger runner.
If anyone is in the Charlotte, NC area: at Charlotte Running Company, we do an event every year called “Let’s Go Fast” and all the major brands come with demo’s of their racing models. We just had this years, but next summer we will be back!
Sounds like a great event. Getting to try shoes, especially super shoes, is excellent.
Good to know. I’ll keep an out for future events.
@@SagasuRunning takes a lot of coordination with the local reps and brands to get them all here on the same day for a few hours with a full set of demo shoes. Diadora had to overnight their set. We had Nike, Adidas, Saucony, NB, Mizuno, Asics, Diadora, Altra, Hoka, Brooks and On!
For slow runner like me with race pace between 4:30 - 5:00 min/km, the racer can't be too narrow in the mid section.
EP4 is your shoe….
@@SagasuRunning Yep, I am running with EP3 at the moment.
Excellent information. The information I wanted
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
Love your reviews and the technical aspect you add to the reviews. Hope you going to review the new Puma Nitro Elite 3?
The Puma I chose it over the Nike Alphafly 3 and the Asics Edge Paris - a good allrounder for various paces, similar plate placement to the Asics edge paris.
I would chose the Saucony Pro 3 over the Saucony Pro 4's, seemed a little more responsive than the newer version.
As I talked about in this video, I won't eb picking up the DNE3. I did go try it on and it's very much not for me. Not remotely in the same league as the Vaporfly 3, Alphafly 3 or Takumi Sen 10 in use case, foam, fit or feel on foot. I enjoyed the VN3 alot...but think I'm done with Puma for 2024...I'll see if they change anything in 2025...
The thing that makes the EP4 so good to be is the inclusion of PWRRUN HG. PWRRUN PB, on it's own, is a decent performance training foam...but isn't up to par with the top three super foams currently, PWRRUN HG is. I don't understand why Saucony abandoned it su quickly in the Endorphin Elite 2.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks for the feedback. The puma takes awhile to break in. I have read a few reviews where they say its close to their top carbon plated shoe.
I suppose different shoes suit different people (foot strike, pace, weight etc) :)
I’ll be curious how well the DNE3 does on the world major marathon stage over the next 6 races. That will be telling how “good” the shoe actually is.
At Age 68 in Ironman Kona 2022 I ran a 4:14 marathon in the Alpha Fly 1with no quad pain although I did notice calf and hamstring tension at the end. After a recent 1/2 marathon in my Saucony endorphins, 6 mile downhill, my quads are painful. Does the Alpha fly 3 have similar cushioning to the alpha fly 1?
Similar, yes… but a higher drop (AF1 = 4mm, AF3 = 8mm)… and less aggressive than the AF1…. But related for sure.
I am rotating my race shoes between the Adidas Pro3,(a local half marathon and a 10K), VP3 (Chicago marathon, Kyoto marathon), Saucony Pro3 ( Hong Kong standard Chartered half marathon and some 10K)and Asics metaspeed Edge Paris (Boston Marathon). It is hard to say which is bad. because they are all GREAT! I feel the Pro3 and the Metaspeed Edge Paris are faster than the other two.Saucony Pro 4 is the most comforter and versatile (also the best looking) among 4. The VP3 can do everything well but I hope Nike could reinforce the insole on the toe part so I can have more bounce and protection to my fore foot.
imo EP3 is best shoe after og VF; have MSP in box
We do have a ton of great options out there in super shoes (my next video will touch on this)...It more comes down to what you feel more comfortable in. The MSEP is definitely the fastest shoe of 2024.
I definitely had a good laugh seeing the best stable shoe was the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4, followed by the best for custom orthotics being the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4, and then the best for heel strikers was also the Saucony Endorphin Pro 4. If you're a heel striker that needs a stable shoe and uses custom orthotics, the stars have aligned for you!🤣 As for me, the AP3 is doing great in my tempo runs and leave me feeling I could run longer still (little wonder as it's built for that and I'm definitely underusing it😄). Mighty curious what Adidas will do with the AP4.🤞
What can I say? Saucony has built a "everyman" supershoe, that ticks alot of boxes that other super shoes don't. I actually think your scenario above isn't that uncommon out there....therefore EP4.
I'm curious if the AP4 will have the durability and utility of the AP3... it all depends on how much Evo 1 DNA they bring into it... 🧐
You do great job keep it up 👍👍
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
Vaporfly 2 is for me the only super shoe I would class as a cheat shoe, and the one I compare new shoes against! At 450km it's toast but still holds up against my Takumi Sen 9 at 5k which has just stole the pb from VF2. I must be a more minimal, nimble supershoe fan too.
The VF2 is definitely special… but the VF3 and TS10 are worthy updates.
I think the EP4 will also be the answer to this due to it being able to accommodate a larger volume. But what would be the friendliest supershoe for wide footers?
Likely, the EP4...haha. It's not a wide shoe but is the widest option in super shoes. Again, super shoes are race fits and narrow...but wide foot friendly. Altra does make a carbon shoe now, that is supposed to be ok...but beyond that Saucony will be you best bet.
One thing that would have been nice to touch on is the durability of the shoes. I love my Vaporfly's, but they are only good for
@@colinbclark I did touch on it in the heavier runner area. Super shoes are race shoes and are simply not meant for endless running. If I get 150mi of racing out of a pair I’m happy…. Then another 150-200+ of training…. All good.
I too recommend Adios Pro 3 for heelstrikers. But they should avoid vaporfly/alphafly.
Agree.
agree
My favorite is still the endorphin pro3.
We all have our favorites. Enjoy them.
Great video! The only type of shoe you didn't review is for the runner who cares purely about enjoyment. Not speed, not durability, but just a "fun" shoe. I assume it would probably be something a la Prime X, Cielo X1, etc.
Honestly, for me...it's the Vaporfly 3. I've run (extensively) in every version of the Vaprofly and I STILL get butterflies when i put them on because I know I'm going to have an amazing run/workout/race. The AF3 is a close second followed by the Takumi Sen 10 right now....for similar reasons.
Thanks for this
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
My current line-up:
Daily: SL 2
Plated Trainer: Boston 12
Racing: Sky Paris
What do you think? I plan to swap the Boston 12 for the Adios Pro 3.
I don't think you need it...if the B12 has life left in it. However, if there are deals on the AP3 that you see...it's worth picking up as it's a shoe you will likely love given the SL2/B12 combo...
Fantastic video, thank you! I'm actually enjoying the adios pro 3 even if they crash my toes a bit 🤣 Where would you position or to whom would you recommend the NB sc elite v3? Thank you!
The upper and the fit of an Adizero shoe can be problematic. I've had all the problems with the AP3 upper, but crushed toes is not one of them (and that is usually the main issue I have with race uppers).
Where would I position the NB SC Elite v3? I wouldn't. It's not evne in the conversation. Nor is the v4.
Well, the only correct answer is: get them all!
I'm really splitted which shoe I will wear for the upcoming Berlin Marathon... the EP4 is too boring, the feidian ultra 4 is too aggressive and gets unstable if you cant maintain the form anymore, but still nice... xtep 160x 3.0 Pro too aggressive... SC Elite v4 doesnt feel fast at all but is very pleasent, Vaporfly 3 is a close contender ... Adios Pro 3 has the worst fit of all shoes... like every shoe its the only shoe I run regular blisters or get midfootpain after a longer time in the shoe, but the midsole is a dream...
Edge Sky Paris is also a close contender... Endorphin Elite is super super stable even more than the EP4 but its so insanely firm... I ran it for a 10k last week, got my PR in the Elite but daaaamn thats such a firm shoe!
So basically... Vaporfly 3, Edge Sky Paris, Feidian Ultra 4 or SC Elite v4 for comfort.
When I hear you talking about the Vaporfly 3 I cant go wrong.? But is it good for slower paces like down to 6min/km? (you never know what happens maybe I break and have to go super slow)
Edge Sky Paris will arrive next week, is it much firmer than the Vaporfly 3?
thank you
Well...yes...get them all...but at the same time I'm trying to be more focused on what I like over here...🤣
It sounds like you may want to try the EE2... I've ehard that firmness is now gone with their "incredifoam" (or whatever they call it).
The VF3 has a BIG sweet spot. As long as it's cushioned enough for you (especially at the end of the marathon, ZoomX is a soft foam) you'll be good. It handles a range of paces well, including 6:00/km just fine. As I said...BIG sweet spot.
@@SagasuRunning I already tested the elite 2 its not only soft, its basically like a sponge. Compared to it New balance 1080 is firm.
But then it snaps back like Lightstrike pro, basically a super soft Lightstrike pro. They really cooked something with that foam.
It wont help I will have to take the vf3 out for 30k run to decide...
But its so beautiful in its volt color... I just want to admire it and dont ruin it 🥺
@Chungdol I’m hearing all sorts of things about the new Saucony foam… mostly from big Saucony fans and it’s mixed at best. I don’t really get their product strategy at the moment. It seems like they are throwing darts at a board and hoping for the best… 🤷🏼♂️
The Volt AF3/VF3 don’t do it for me at first… but seeing them in person really changed that.
@@SagasuRunning exactly! I got it for free from tech rep as written on insta, really really Thank you again it was your words and knowledge 🤗
But in perso it looks amazing.
As I ran the elite 2 in preorder I was surprised... But its not for me, I like it soft but not that softness I also have huge durability concerns.
Same with tech rep from ON running drops "well around 150-200km" as it would be the most normal thing on this planet...
Weird time
150-200km is even a low durability expectation for me…. And I’m ok with a shoe only being good for 250km…
Saucony 2025 will be interesting (and disappointing) for many based on what I have seen. Again, some very strange product choices over there.
Great video
Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
Nobody breaks down subject matter like you do. You state your opinion then back it up with facts. I have yet to disagree with any of your views on shoes. It’s very helpful when making a purchase decision. I’m grateful.
I’m glad to hear this and thank you for the kind words. I do try to back everything up or simply state my opinion clearly. Thank you for noticing. 🤙🏻
I have four of them and want to use all of them, so for 5k, I use takumi sen 10, for 10K, I use vaporfly 3, for half marathons, Adios Pro 3, for marathons, Alphafly 3 :D
You have everything covered there. 🤙🏻
Very thoughtful video as usual! One question: Would you choose the AF3 over the AF1 (fresh pair) for a flat marathon (Berlin) and why? I've ran my last 5-6 marathons all in the AF1 and PB'd in every one of them. But the AF3 is intriguing to me. I especially hope that I can benefit from the higher drop and stability in the later miles.
100% yes…. But I never liked the AF1. The AF3 would be my first choice for a course like Berlin, without a doubt in my mind.
I’ll have my review of them up on the channel in the next week or two.
Thanks for the great insight, I was aiming to get my first super shoe for the Cape Town Marathon in October and this narrowed it down perclfectly.
One question of you don't mind answering with regards to shoe choice for my case ? It might be over my budget at the time for a supershoe, what would you recommend as a cheaper alternative for the marathon distance (First choice would be the Pro 3) ? I'm aiming for just under 5min/km, mid foot striker, 73kg.
Running in the SL2 now, love them but destroys ankle bone with the high collar, i wont make the distance in them with the pain on the ankle. Previously had Novablast 3, meh felt like I had to heelstrike a lot more and I slap the ground with my forefoot. Boston 11, too hard and dull, knee issues. Gliderides, great.
Thanks!
Shoes and other kit is expensive down South. Is it tariffs or VAT, I don’t understand it. Anyway, if you the AP3 is too expensive then maybe the Saucony Speed would be a good option.
I love Cape Town!
The best budget alternative is going to be a shoe you already have that is comfortable, whatever that is. However the short list for me would be the AP3 and EP4 from the sounds of it...likely the EP4 (since you find the B13 dull).
I also agree..the ES4 might be a shoe worth looking at as well.... though if you can swing it the EP4 will have better performance.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks, appreciate it!
For Saucony endorphin pro vs the Nike alphafly, would the endorphin pro be significantly slower than the alphafly in the marathon distance for somebody in the 3:15-3:30 range?
If you can hold your form in the last 10k the AFV3 will reward you, but if you start to fight the pods, it can get clunky (landing behind the pods). That's where the user friendly nature of the Endo Pro would shine. I've run 3:30 in the AF V1 (last 5-6k was torture on the calves), 3:23 in the AF V2 (last 10k I really felt the bulk of the shoe), Sub 3:15 in the AF V3 and I didn't think about my feet once! Got my 1st negative split and BQ. Now part was stacking marathon blocks and lack of injuries, but the AF V3 is magical if you can hit the pods without trying.
My next video will be a data video talking about super shoe efficiency and my thoughts on all of this. Stay tuned.
Well said and fully agree.
Awesome, informative and thoughtful video as always Sagasu. Would you say there’s much difference in performance between the AP3 vs AF3?
The AF3 is the better and faster shoe in most cases…. But the AP3 is not fan behind, especially for a two year old shoe…. And it’s easier to find and buy.
Thank you for the kind words on the content. Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
2 Questions: Whats the most durable supershoe? And could you fit costum insoles into the vaporfly 3, the metaspeed sky paris or the puma deviate nitro elite 3?
EP4 or the AP3 are more durable. Custom insoles in the VF3 may work if you can manage to get the insole out without destroying the shoe. No go in the MSEP due to the volume of the upper. The DNE3 is doable.
If I was given the choice to have an unlimited amount of shoes from this list:
1) Adios Pro 3 for M
2) VF3 HM and down.
3) I have the AF 3, there is magic in that shoe. I need more than 2 runs in it to figure out its true placing.
Good list. I wish the AP3 was actually faster for me...though i expect the AP4 to be that. The VF3/AF3 combo is outstanding and you can't go wrong. magic in both of them.
I'm kinda curious about your take on the endorphin elite. I tried it on foot a few days ago and it felt amazing.
The endorphin pro certainly seems to be less pure performance oriented, the comfort is amazing, but the elite has some next level foam.
I have tried on the EE1 and think PWRRUN HG is a great foam. However, the geometry of the shoe felt way off for me (jogging in store and on a treadmill briefly) and the upper is awful (that midfoot band doesn't work for my high volume foot). I don't like shoes with extreme rocker in them and the EE1 definitely has that.
I've not seen or held the EE2, but have discussed it with a local Taiwanese run infuencer, who is a fan of the brand, and based on his comments (SUPER soft!, more than ZoomX) I was intrigued in their new foam but doubt I'll try it as he said the upper and fit is very similar.
Ultimately though, I'm never going to race in a Saucony and have no need for it.
Saucony seems to be developing in odd directions right now, especially with their foams. PB is a tank, HG is very good...do they need another foam? I thought HG was the end-all-be-all? It feels like grasping at straws to me. 🤷🏼♂️
The EP4 works so well because it's a "normal" shoe fundamentally. The combo of PWRRUN PB and HG is well done and it's a great mix of performance, durability and ease of use.
Hi Chris! Great work as always! One question, please: I’m running Valencia marathon in December, and I’m trying to do it under 3h30m. My height is 1m85cm and I weight roughly 82kg, and I’m a heel striker. My plan was to run with the Ascis Superblast 2, because as you told, I consider it a super shoe as well. Do you consider that for my pace and physical structure I should look at any other super shoe?
I’d look into the Adios Pro 3, or maybe the Adios Pro 4 (which should be out my then in some form). You will appreciate the carbon and lighter shoe in the last 15-10k of the marathon. The SB2 is likely OK… but I would try some carbon shoes… and see how they feel.
Have you tried the Endorphin Elite? Being a Saucony fanboy at my roots I was all in for this shoe but turned out to aggravate an existing injury. I recently switched to Asics just because they work for me best as a heavy supinator and any shoe that would be biased laterally would give me pain especially these with mild pronation support
I’ve only tried it on in the store and jogged in place but knew it wasn’t for me. I don’t like the upper fit, especially twit midfoot band and I REALLY don’t like the extreme toe rocker. The only other shoe I can think of with a more extreme forefoot rocker is the old Metaspeed Sky +… I’m not a fan of overly rockered shoes. I do like the foam though. PWRRUN HG is the magic that makes the EP4 work as well as it does .
Thanks for sharing. Would you have any experience with New Balance SC Elite V4? Keen to know your thoughts on this shoe.
I’m not a fan. There is a reason I don’t cover NB on this channel. Trying on the SC Elite v4 and Rebel v4 earlier this eye was enough for me to write the brand off until they have massive design and engineering changes… I’ve discussed it in a handful of videos, mostly my shoe talk videos.
Thanks for this shoe review. May I know is this shoe good for flat feet overpronation. I am using Soucenny endorphin pro 3 now. If not what do you recommend? Pace is 5.30. Running FM. Thanks in advance.
Saucony is going to your best bet here. Triumph 22, Endorphin Speed 4 and Pro 4...all great options. Brooks GTS models are also a place to look.
My question is about the Takumi Sen. I have the Takumi Sen 8 that I bought for $80 a little while ago. I love the shoe and have run many races from 5k to half marathon in them. I have never run a marathon, though plan to next summer. I know an Adios Pro 3 would be a better shoe for the full marathon, but I am curious about your thoughts as to the biggest drawbacks of a Takumi Sen at a full marathon distance. Though I know the durability is high on the Pro 3, the $250 seems hard to justify for a running shoe in my current situtation. I am also not overly concerned about maximizing every ounce of performance out of my shoe on race day. With how marathon racing shoes were just a few years ago, the Takumi Sen can't be that bad as long as I have run long distances in the shoe while training and made sure I'm comfortable in it right?
If you are comfortable in them and have the durability in your body for the distance you'll be totally fine. The Takumi Sen is basically a racing flat of old with modern materials. I actually find the TS10 very effective and comfortable for marathon pace running.
I had 2 pair of the Takumi Sen 8 and only just recently retired the second. (I never had the 9.) The upper is kinda like a plastic bag but they were really good. I mostly used them for speed work but did do up to half marathon in them.
The Takumi Sen 10 is better than the 8: the upper is better and the full-length fish spatula rods make the 10 more stable than the 8.
I used to run marathons and ultras in the Nike Streak 6 and 7 before the Vaporfly 4%. The TS 8 is more cushioned than Streak that but what I found limiting about the TS 8 is that unless the road is really pristine it makes my lower leg stabilizing muscles get tired which eventually is a problem.
I wish I still had the Vaporfly 4% to revisit because I wonder how different that really was from the reimagined Takumi Sen from the 8 through 10.
Great comment. Also… I’ve been thinking this same thing about the 4%…. I’d love to have a pair to compare to the TS10…
Racing a half marathon tomorrow. Using vp3
Good luck with your race! 🤙🏻
What’s your opinion on the upper on the adios pro
It’s awful. See the video linked in the description for nearly 20mins of me complaining about it.
However…. The midsole… is so good. If you find the right sock (which I did) and a strategically placed band-aid or two…. Then you can get around the awful upper.
The good thing is the Evo 1 upper is excellent, and the AP4 upper looks very sinker to it. So 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻
I run exclusively in zero drop shoes with a wide toebox. My daily trainers are the Escalante 4 and ST-5. For very long runs I use the vanish tempo. I’m looking for a super shoe with a wide toe box. It doesn’t need to be zero drop but I would like it to be 5 mm or less. I’m looking for the shoe that will provide the maximum benefit to my running economy over the marathon distance. What do you recommend?
The Vanish Carbon is really your only current option for that. Nothing else is out there. I’m not a fan of wide toe boxes (I want a more race like fit, especially on a super shoe)…. So by a super shoes’s nature they have a more constraining race fit.
That being said I will be covering and interesting product line, starting in September, that is a natural shaped shoe. I’m quite excited about them. There will be a racer in the family (eventually)… all I can say at the moment.
I come from barefoot running and strongly believe ins thing feet and natural flex in shoes… but not the fit of them.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the quick reply! Do you think the vanish carbon really provides enough of an improvement in running economy to be competitive with the top super shoes and worth the high price? The SC Elite v4 has a relatively low drop and I’ve read that the toebox is relatively wide for a super shoe… do you think it could be a good option? Excited to hear about the new product line that you’ll be covering in September!
I like Vanish Carbon a lot. The foam reminds me of LSP. I don’t race with it though. I’m not strong enough for zero drop shoes. I use the VC for short distances to train to get stronger with them.
Honestly, no. It’s not in the same league. I know it has its fans, but it’s not anywhere near the top tier super shoes, even the mid tier.
The NB SCEv4 is way too wide (midsole and contact patch), way too soft and has a sloppy fitting messy upper…. That is wide, for a super shoe, but overall the shoe is not great (IMO). It is a better shoe than the Vanish Carbon though…. But that isn’t saying much.
Wish they would bring back the Prime X Strung V1
The ship has sailed on that one. I’m curious what comes next for the PX platform… zero leaks have been seen as of yet.
The most recent shoe that's good for me is the pegasus plus
I'm a big fan of the Peg Plus (lots of content on it on the channel) and while it CAN compete with a proper super shoe (see my supershoe efficiency data video) it's not a super shoe. It has become my go-to workout shoe though...excellent shoe.
Is running a marathon in Prime x Strung 2 vs a supershoe a silly decision? I'm 85kgs
I would never race in the PX2S…. Not that it matters but I choose to respect the 40mm stack height rule. It’s also WAY more shoe than I want to run in as well. However, people make it work… there is no rule saying you can’t as a non-elite runner… run it what works for you and feels the best.
@@SagasuRunning I'm concerned about the weight leading fatigue in race conditions. I also have the superblast but I prefer the lightstrike foam so much more! :(
This is regarding the hoka cielo x1. I know you stated that it would be great for heavier people as I am over 200lbs. Would it be a great option for heavy person and heel striker at the same time?
Yes, there is a lot of heel in that shoe. There will be some instability to get used to in them initially, its a massive stack of foam, but the transition will be quick.
about 70% of the elites are heelstrikers, only 3 % forefoot strikers (study at 2017 world marathon championships). you make it sound like they would not have "performance" or an "efficient stride". I never tried the Cielo X but I own or have tried all the others (some in previous versions) and my heel striking has never been an issue. The upper of the VF 2 was too tight (but v1 and 3 are fine), the Adios Pro 3 has heel slip and gives me blisters (v2 was fine) but the medial bias helps for my stability needs while it may be too much for supinators, the AF hurts in my arch, there are so many factors that the best shoe is always very individual and will vary greatly between individuals.
I'm painting broad brush strokes with these videos...but they are definitely strong starting points for people to begin to find what works from them.
Heel strikers can run in any super shoe (as I said)...it is less about performance and more about durability...which is a massive factor for many in a expensive super shoe.
@SagasuRunning you are actually relatively fine in your stroke, amongst the shoetubers I follow I would say only Alex Filiti differentiates even more in some videos, and I appreciate you going into different factors. I would just add that at the end of the day its a combination of many factors that determine the individually best shoe. Maybe that is just my perception but what put me off a little was that I felt an underlying theme of inferiority of heelstrike, that is quite common (and others show it much more, I didn't perceive that from you previously), which is just not scientifically funded and wrong, but also leads some runners to injury risk by forcing themselves into a strike that is unnatural for their anatomy.
6”2 220 hopefully not a heavy runner for to long. But my big issue is I have a high arch doesn’t cave size 12 2E I have a hard time finding a shoe
Brooks, as a brand, in general will be your best bet here.
any Vapour Fly 3 fans here?
🙋🏼♂️
here
no
Hi! How would you test which one is the best for a marathon? I have the AF1, the AP3, TS10 and VF2. I ran my first full in the AF1 and ran a couple of half marathons in the AP3 and VF2. I am 195lbs (89kg), aiming for 4h, middle to forefoot striker. I fear the VF2 is a bit too mushy and unstable so I am keeping it for 10km races and below. TS10 would be too thin for my weight. So I am left with AF1 and AP3.
Would you have an idea how to pick the best for the races? Specifics long run testing? Video analysis?
Thanks,
My next video will be a data video around super shoe efficiency and how I judge what is “fastest”. Stay tuned.
I’d go with the AP3 if I was in your shoes…. However, go with what feels fastest on your long runs.
@SagasuRunning thanks for the reply, and I am looking forward to your next video.
I had looked at my form on a treadmill with a physical therapist, and he concluded that the AF1 were better as my feet were going higher on the kick back. I did however got a noticeably higher cadence with the AP3.
I will test them at marathon pace in long run sessions and see! Thanks again.
I own Endorphin pro 1 and I don’t feel any help during fast running as compared to Alphafly 1! Is Endorphin pro 4 much better in terms of getting a kick back when compared to pro 1?
EP4 definitely has more pronounced rocker (speedroll)...but still not as propulsive as the AF1.
I just ran a 5k pr in the asics magic speed 3, which is the only carbon plated shoe I've used. Bought them recently for $100 on sale. I suspect the carbon plate in a true super shoe would be stiffer and the foam slightly more responsive than the magic speed, yes? Would I notice a difference as a 80kg 17 min 5k runner? The foams in these shoes today are incredible compared to shoes from when I last ran marathons a decade ago.
The Magic Speed 3 2as a great shoe. The CF plate in there is actually nearly the same as what is in a Metaspeed, very stiff. The difference is the foam. FFBlast+ is a trianing foam, far from a super foam. But the ride of that shoe was fast and very good.
You would notice a proper super foam if you stepped up to a Metaspeed Paris. The shoe will be even lighter and even more responsive.
Yes, foams and running shoes have changed quite a bit in the past 10 years, especially in the past 7.
Everything you ever wanted to know about which super shoe is right for you but were afraid to ask.
Maybe not everything...but hopefully most things.
@@SagasuRunning 👍
How much better would you say the AF3 is over the EP4 for the marathon distance? Deciding on getting one of those for a marathon or waiting for the Endorphin Elite 2
Alot...the EP4 is great but Lightstrike Pro is a much better foam with much more performance, something that you would notice in the final 10k of a marathon. It really comes down to which one is more comfortable. The upper on the AP3 is awful and can really be rough on your feet, but it's work troubleshooting because the midsole is that good.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the reply. Meant to compare the EP4 against the Alphafly 3
Well then…. The AF3 is better in every single way… better foam (even better than LSP) better upper and fit and much more propulsive, especially on fatigued legs. I’ll have my 50mile review of the AF3 up on eqrly’osh Sept.
I just moved to an area that I’ll be running a lot on light packed dirt trails/road to light trail. Would you still consider the vaporfly and/or endorphin pro 4 for that kind of surface transition?
For a super shoe… yes, the VF3 over the EP4… though saving the super shoes for the hard surfaces and the trainers for everything else is the better way.
If u happen to have Nike tempo next% it will be literally miles better for heelstrikers. Firm heel is the key. I have 3.06 in tempo, then 3.25 in Sauc ep3, 3.26 in vf2. This year under 3h is very likely. I have tested Sauc. EE and. PrimeX1 and I am convniced the Tempo is 15min faster on race day. 259g is no drawback compared to the insane benefit. My bet for 2nd best would be an Adidas LSP shoe. How i wish that Tempo would make a comeback for us all. Durability is not great, I have destroyed 5 pairs of them. 2 flat air pods under 500km, and forefoot Zoomx layer in shreds And rubber splits before 800kms. If u have em, save that treasure for race day.
The Tempo is nearly 4 years old now and was never intended as a race shoe. It's not relevant in a 2024 conversation. Though, I agree...it was a tank for heel strikers.
I have the magic Paris sky and alphafly both are so narrow in the arch
Which has the widest? Pro 4 saucony?
Race shoes, by design, are narrow in the midfoot (race fit)… but the Saucony EP4 or the Brooks Hyperion Elite 4 will be your best bets.
I heard the Endorphin Elite is the other good supershoe for heavy runners. Do you agree?
Possibly. I find PWRRUN HG, the foam in that shoe, rather soft and it could be unstable for some foot strikes. Also the forefoot geometry is rather extreme in that shoe and could cause problems for some. Lastly the upper fit is very race fit and does not offer any extra room. The may all be fine for some heavier runners but in general I thing the EP4 is a much better and more consistent option.
The EE2 is absolutely not for a heavier runner. The foam is way too soft and unstructured and likely won’t last at all.
@@SagasuRunning I thought HG is firmer than PB? I don’t have EE so I don’t know. I’m just going off of reviews. Anyway, rockers tend to benefit heavy runners for faster turnover because they don’t benefit from the same propulsion as lighter runners, although they can bend the carbon with more force to get that pop.
I thought the rocker is one of the reasons AP3 is recommended for heavy runners. It has pretty pronounced rocker, it’s a late rocker though compared to Speed Roll which arches earlier.
@alainmaiquez7475 HG feels softer and much of resilient to my feet, in the EP4. I’ve tried the EE on and found it medium firmness, but definitely softer than PB. Saucony has confirmed that many times. The engineering on the midsole of the EE makes it feel firm, but once it breaks in (and HG does breaking) it softens out quite a bit.
You are right about the AP3 rocker. It is very late.
However the rocker in the EE is almost like a cliff, similar to the Metaspeed Sky+…. It’s very extreme and not for everyone. Even if you are ok with the foam and rocker…. The fit of the shoe is very much a standard super shoe race fit. So it’s unlikely that will work.
The AP3 works much better for more people.
How about xtep 160x 5.0 pro? It was used in the olympic marathon
I did see a few Xtep, LiNing and Anta I believe….
i have Endorphin Pro 3. im light runner at 139 lbs. Adidas Pro 3 vs AlphaFly 3 or Endorphin Pro 4 for next half marathon race shoes?
Given how soft the EP3 is, I might look at the AF3 first. The AP3 is much MUCH firmer.
Without watching the video, just wanted to say that it’s the Cielo X1
Haha…. You might want to watch the video. 🤫
I am a 210 lbs heel striker. I am running a marathon for the second time this year and paid close attention. But I fall in between 2 categories i'm heavy and a heel striker. Trying to hit sub 4 😢. Should I go endorphin or adidas adios?
The EP4 will give you a but more support and structure in the heel while the AP3 is a better foam and ultimately will likely last you longer and give better performance. The AP3 upper is a bit problematic though...the EP4 fits well though. I'd try them on if I could...
'ring ring"...."this is New Balance calling,....you know us, we're only second to Nike and have 13% of the running shoe market in the U.S., what did we do to you?"
The 2024 New Balance design and engineering is all that needs to be said. That’s what they did. Until things change drastically…. I won’t be paying much attention to the brand.
😂
im heavy runner my self 95 kilos ! always skipped adios pro 3 because heard that rods break easily on heavy load !...im confused
They can break… but it’s rare. LIghtstirke Pro is a dense material and protects them mostly. Obviously, you will put alot of loading them over time so overall turbidity will be lower than a lighter runner. But the performance will be there.
90kg/1,93 m. Is the Boston 12 as well for heavier runners?
It will work well. Make sure to pair it with a non-plated trainer though.
Definitely. I'm 6'2" & a teeny bit heavier than you. Boston 12 makes me grin like the Village Idiot. I changed the way I lace them because I have a ridiculously high instep. Heel locked with a runners knot & the shoe just disappears on my foot.
Always happy to reach for the B12. Pair it with the Adios Pro 3 + you'll be golden..
Are high stacked shoes like supervlast and gel nimbus bad for legs for long term??? I dont want any plated shoes
“Bad” is relative. You can’t escape the forces of running, high stack shoes just transfer them up the legs (to the knees and hips mainly). Also running only in high stack shoes will change your stride to some degree. It’s best to mix a range of shoes to make sure you are giving your body a range of training stimulus.
@@SagasuRunning 40mm stack 8 drop
And 28mm 6 drop is good??? I only want 2 shoes
That’s a decent range. You could do worst.
Specially the Nimbus and Superblast… there is a lot of overlap there. Something like an Adidas SL2 and Superblast world be a better, more well rounded combo.
@@SagasuRunning my current rotation are puma deviate 2 , gel nimbus 26 and noosa tri 16
Planning on only 2 shoes
Superblast 2 and noosa tri 16.
I wanna ditch plated shoes in the future though
@nanezferrer3565 If you don’t want plated shoes anymore the Superblast 2 is a good option.
Theme of the video: Stick to your Endorphin Pros, you heel striking plebs!😂
Can't argue with it, I do love my EP3.
😂😂😂
Saucony has really made the “Everyman” super shoe…. And they have done it brilliantly with just enough tech to make it perform while still feeling “normal”. I don’t give Saucony props often… but they deserve it here.
hav u tried the nb sc elite v4?
I have and not a fan, too wide, too soft, sloppy fit...there is a reason I'm not covering NB on this channel at the moment...
@@SagasuRunning do u have narrow or normal width feet?
Neither wise nor narrow feet… but I do have high developed arches and a high volume foot. Across the board all the 2024 NB have sloppy fitting uppers, poor material choices and wonky last built on top of midsoles that are WAY too wide and soft.
@@SagasuRunning oh dang, does that include the nb sc pacer v2 if u tried it?
@io-rj6sk It included all NB shoes. I will not be covering them the rest of the year and unless there is a major shift in their design and engineering (which is unlikely) also not in 2025.
I've tried the Adidas adios pro 2 and have never ever run in a less stable shoe. I assume the 3 is better
Night and day differences between the AP2 and AP3... can't even compare.
What is the best shoe for a 4-5h marathon 95kg runner
The one that is the most comfortable. But if you are looking to buy one I'd start with the EP4 if you are going for a PR or the SB2 if you are looking to complete it comfortably.
I agree that the Endo Pro series is a great shoe for training and racing at a lower entry cost for a cabin plated race shoe. I put over 350 miles on the EP2, relegated for only treadmill use now, and 75 on my EP3. Very durable shoes and a nice balance of comfort to go with the performance. The Endo Pro 3 is much faster than v2 and holds my 10K PR, even over the Sen 8.
The EP4 adds PWRRUN HG under the foot which really gives the shoe an extra edge... the mix of foams work so well there.
@@SagasuRunning I tested a pair on the treadmill at my local running store and they felt great. The one issue in the short rest were the overly stretchy laces.
Ya, the laces suck and the bootie upper is not my favorite thing. I replaced the places with a non stretch pair from an old Metaspeed…. Night and day difference in lockdown. Those are the laces you actually see on the shoe in the video.
No NB SC Elite 4?
Nope, I'm not a fan...too wide, too mushy, sloppy fitting upper...overall a total mess. So much so it's one of the two NB shoes (Rebel v4 is the other) that have caused me to ignore the brand until they make some massive design and engineering changes.
Not yet thinking
to get super shoes.
Every runner is always thinking about the next pair of running shoes...always.
@@SagasuRunning my 2 trainers velocity & novablast are practically new
All the same…. Running shoes are always N+1 (n = number of shoes).
Not sure if it qualifies as a super shoe because of its heavy weight and its illegal, but the Adidas Prime X 2.0 is another good option for heavy marathon runners. The thick lightstrike pro midsole soaks up impacts but the two carbon plates add a lot more stability than you would expect from such a tall shoe. My only gripes are the upper isn't very comfortable, the heel is pretty narrow for a heel-striker, and it feels a little sketchy making tight turns.
I have called that shoe a "hyper shoe" or, more recently a "Performance max trainer", either way, definitely not a super shoe. It's a not a sure designed for racing. It's a tech platform for Adidas and a trainer.
Though, if you can get around the weight and height of the shoe...I agree it can be a valid option for heavier runners for training.