You really cannot categorize Law to be as "simplified". With Law, if his core was shaped like an octogon in T7, they removed 5 sides of his core, making his core a triangle' in T8. Even though transitition to DC/DSS has been made to one direction ie Forward, the time it takes for it come out is the same as B,B,F. And since it doesn't have precise or just frame execution, it can be interupted or sidewalked or take damage 99% of time making it almost pointless. The removal of transition of DC/DSS from certain moves also reduces the efficiancy of Law. The same applies for the simplification of the slide; can be lowparried, full launched when blocked, and can be side walked. Law needs to be realigned after every move. It is not easy to rank and collect wins with Law on any rank when going against intermediate to pro level players. Jin is OP level simplified. Dragunouv is the Blue Print of how Every Tekken Character should be with Heihachi (Law 2.0) coming in a close second.
You really cannot categorize Law to be "simplified"; if Law's core was octagonal in shape in T7, the devs removed 5 sides of his core, changing his core into a "Triangle". Even though the transition into DC has been reduced to one direction i.e. Forward, the time it takes for Law to transistion to DC is the same as previous DSS i.e Back, Back, Forward. And because of the transition lacks of "just frames" execution, it can be interupted, sidestepped or receive recoverable damage 99% of the time making the simpliification almost pointless. The same applies for Law's slide that can be full launched on block, low parried, and sidestepped. This doesn't allow Law to win and go up in ranks when going against intermediate/legacy players of other characters. Jin is simplified to be OP. Dragunov... is the Blue Print of how all Characters should play in T8, with Heihachi (or Law 2.0) coming in a close second.
I think most characters in Tekken 8 have benefited from simplification of executions of moves. Law benefited by making him more accessible to players in a mid level. Even now you don't come across too many Law players at high level. Even in blue ranks coming across a Law player is far and few in-between. Prior Tekken games there were 2 levels of Law players...the noobs and the extremely good who had time to master DSS and fundamentals. The ease of use going into the new Dragon Charge allows players to learn fundamentals without having to smash their controller into pieces because of execution with DSS. Also let's not forget DSS wasn't always the same execution in any given scenario. WS4 DSS was a whole next level to it. But for legacy players, the OG input is still there, just with less reward.
It just hurts so much when you practiced ws4 dss for three years and suddenly it's not in the game anymore, while df2 pewgf, tju and all lee justframes are still there
This .... I spent a year of my early tekken time in practice mode. Starting with legend kick combo ender, then ws4 dss. Then t8 hits and that year is pointless, very disappointing :/
@@zmogray The first time i confirmed my ws4 ch into 3+4 in a ranked match, then in a tournament, will never forget that feeling. Such a pointless change
Agreed….same way as a beginner (coming straight from tekken 3) in tekken 7 I picked steve as main and lee and bryan as subs….took 3 yrs to reach emperor with steve and I guess raijin with lee..mastered shiro combo from both sides…in tekken 8 can’t bear the sight of crappy version of steve..lee is better but still not that good compared to rest of the roaster….*so I now main law😈*
Exactly and when the hardcore fans finally have had enough and move on because the game completely lost its identity the developers and lead directors are going to be looking stupid.
their 70$ are worth the same as your 70$ unfortunately. maybe with time they will throw the veterans a bone. i dont expect anything in the first 3 years of this game.
@@DespairMagic i am having fun playing DOa5 survival mode or older 3d beat em ups like Urban Reign. on the weekends im getting matches in T7 quick match as well.
what hurts me most about law is that you could simply have both. you could just give perfect frames and blue sparks only for legacy input dss. it would be a minuscule change for casual players but MASSIVE for law mains. you would still be able to do a lot with the character, but you would have back that almost unlimited ceiling for optimization and execution with just a tiny change
Omg..this is actually a huge fix and they really need to bring it...this is coming from a law player who greatly benefited from the simplification of dss in t8..bring legacy input back please, was one thing that made marshall so cool and when a high level playe had that execution it was nothing but respectt 😎
Oh I was crying about it in beta alot But then later moved on. Edit-Nvm I went back to t7 law today still stuck at 43 dss legend kick ender. Could not land one in Infinite stage. Tho doing combos with akuma was fun. But he is never going to be in t8 sed.
@@neowo7378 you can use the legacy input but it works exactly the same. you have no incentive to be technical and precise. and it doesn't work because the game tracks the legacy input, it works because a perfectly timed dss ends with tapping or holding foward, which is the same as the modern input anyways. it's like doing a kickflip and just landing on a skateboard and both being recognized as the same because it ended in the same way
I think most people don't understand the depth and value in high execution. It adds another layer in how you approach an opponent: "I know this guy's an execution monster and will always go for the hardest setups and combos" or "This guy doesn't have the execution for these setups, he will try them rarely if ever". It makes the moments when they pull off something nasty way more hype and memorable, like in sports, only the top athletes are able to pull off this kind of thing consistently or even at all. Instead, if we streamlined execution, you wouldn't have a valid reason for ever not doing the optimal stuff, just look at how differently knee and jimmyjtran play, one plays a more fundamental and grounded tekken, with some taunt setups, meanwhile jimmyjt goes for the jetuppers constantly and is playing very unorthodox. All of this, without impacting the casual player in any way; People forget what it really means to be casual, they have no clue what optimal combos are or what the hell a set up is, it's not what's stopping them from enjoying fighting games casually
I guess it makes sense that they dumbed Jin down a lot since they really wanted to emphasize him as the main character of the game and be more accessible to everyone, but damn I miss Tekken 7 Jin. He was the apex version of the character and hella cool to play
Dumb down. Ok i wanna see you spamming out advanced electrics and electric uppercut combos with 70+ damage than we can talk. It's still a huge different to see an advanced Jin player like Devilster, Book or CBM compared to regular purple Jins in online matches. Huge different. When people say easy to play they obviously show how little they even know about this game. Alisa or Victor are even much simpler to play than Jin but yeah "dumbed down"
@@Mentis-de I think it's insane people like you still exist when Jin has shit like scourge, insane demon paw and a borderline homing heat smash (along with improved range and execution removal) and claim that he wasn't dumbed down from his Tekken 7 version Jin still having some execution and Jin being dumbed down and made simpler than his Tekken 7 version are not mutually exclusive. No one in their right mind would claim that Jin is still as difficult and complex as he was in Tekken 7 if not at least marginally easier to play and understand
You are all dumbed down and arguing about things you would actually agree with if not for being argumentative. Jin has a much lower barrier for entry and he also still has a very high ceiling. Pretty simple but yall wna argue Also tekken 8 Jin is literally more complex than tekken 7, idk where that claim comes from. Ig if we wna debate the complexities of a winning gameplan with less... but he literally has more tech/tools at his disposal than before.
Tekken 7 jin still is cool from my memory, his moves and combos seemed so cool compared to now, now he just feels like your typical big buff dude thats gonma beat you up with nonstop aggression, with a hint of anime emo powers 🤣
@@Mentis-de the thing is you don't need to do that when you play Jin. He is dumb af and you get great results with him but you can take him to really obscene levels still but you just don't need to which sucks
ppl overlook other legacy characters like king and nina just to mention JIN, like, i think we all know he is easy to pilot and popular in ranked we get it, tell us something new lol
The damage is actually weaker when you mash the chain grab, also it’s much more easier to break now since you only need to hold the button needed to break the grab
King's chain grabs are simpler at a low level, but still require execution if you want the most out of them. Doing the inputs gives more damage, and iirc gives better okie
The input is so dumb that you can spam ki charge after grabbing a dude into a screwdriver and game will confirm every button cuz ki charge has all 4 of them
1. Jin was simplified to the point where he was to portrayed as the protagonist of the series and was made to be accessible to everyone and no longer being used by specialists. 2. Law was changed to the point where his DSS stance transition was simplified where anyone else can do it by holding forward. 3. As for Dragunov he considered the worst version of the character and end of Tekken 7 in season 4, until Tekken 8 he was completely reworked to the point where he like play to win character with no weakness.
feels like literally every character lol edit: kazuya ff2 is so obscenely busted that it removed most of the difficulty from the character ( actually playing neutral) lol
Na they just chose a few for noobs. Steve, devil jin etc are still hard. Kaz released weaker than tekken 7. They buffed him after lot of conplaints so now he hits like a truck. But again high risk high reward playstyle like typical mishimas.
@@omegaweapon116 That's all mishimas. That's also been in place for a long time before tekken 8. Mishimas have wave dash/leg sweeps or electric launch. It's one or the other. That's part of their kit. Tekken 7 had defensive 50/50. Back dashing was very strong in tekken 7. So yeah they made it more aggressive which is "easier" for noobs as fighting games people usually spam hence it seems more apparent.
Kazuya was already simplified during T7 with moves like FF4 or WS 1+2, plus his combos are easy, consistent and very damaging save doing a PWEFG from df2 which is not a requirement and it still gives a lesser combo. Come T8, he has the better demon paw, patricide fist, some busted shit in devil form AND even heat gimmicks and new scrubby laser moves to catch opponets off guard, and yet people only find it in themselves to complain about Jin bcs of d2 and samsara, which become dogshit as you climb lol
@@hyunka2756 it is very true that many ppl have shamed jin for being so easy and “braindead” while we are all just going to give kazuya a pass because he is so “hard to pilot” lol not to mention that kazuya/ mishima bros are the loudest when it comes to trashing on jin. yes, from the start, kazuya was bugged and his combo utility was garbage that made him bottom tier but he has been fixed and is very strong and tournament viable yet ppl ignore how privileged he actually is lmao
Just wanted to say: NO, Jin being simplified wasn't a good idea just bc he is the protagonist, Mishimas are so hard bc they are so strong, if you keep the strength but take away the difficulty the game becomes broken. To me it looks like the developers never played a Tekken game.
i never thought i would see mishima and strong in one sentence, sure they are hard to play but its because they're honest character. and tekken developer never play tekken? bruh harada plays tekken, there's no way he doesn't have a say during development 😂
As someone who actually started with Tekken 8 as their first traditional fighter, I can't lie and say I don't understand where veterans of the series are coming from. Tekken being difficult to play was apart of it's identity and made it so rewarding when you finally got the hang of it. But at the same time Tekken 8 made me a fan of this series it made me wanna check out the older titles because I really enjoyed what I played in 8. Tekken 8 helped make me appreciate this series but I won't deny the fact it Alienated a lot of older players.
You just explained it yourself you started with tekken 8 so you wouldn’t know why veterans hate the game being dumbed down but tekken 8 isn’t even dumbed down thats the funny part
A lot of these arguments and shit are like a tekken only debate from the outside looking in tekken is still extremely hard. Even a “easy” character like Jin is hard if you’ve literally never played a tekken game
@@Gekkoukitsune9 no it isnt its still the same difficult game you still have characters with execution you need to learn the new moves on character that were added gotta learn the heat moves which ones are engagers and which are not.
They are hurting their dedicated players to please casuals who don't even care about the series and aren't even gonna stick around for it anyway. The ironic thing about it is that casuals don't care how hard a character is to play, they are CASUALS. They don't understand the game on a deep enough level nor care anyway. The worst part about it is how they always make easy characters the most broken as well so they're not only easy but ruin the game for everyone. It's a slap in the face in my opinion.
I’m a casual. I didn’t become a full on Tekken fan until T8 because I had a bad experience with T7. To say that I’m not gonna stick around with this game for long to me is disingenuous. I’ve been hyping this game up since the earlier character trailers. I’ve been playing this game since May of this year and have been enjoying it ever since. Despite all the controversy around it, and the fact that I’m not that great at Tekken anyways, I still have fun with the game and will continue learning it. I’m with this game till the end. The dedicated players aren’t all gonna leave but the ones that will or already did, imo, they’re the gatekeepers who don’t want a franchise like this to expand its audience. To bring in newcomers who want to enjoy these games. I’m sorry if that’s how you feel. But I’m not just gonna drop this game like you said. For the folks that have dropped this game, well, they never were excited for this game to begin with.
@@JcgLoungeto be honest, I don't have a problem with new players like you just the problem with how they made the game beginner friendly and because of it they made it a game where if someone mashes they can win from it where as other people take months to learn the game mechanics only too lose because of new players who spam time and time again, like this week alone, I've demoted and promoted between the same rank 6-7 times due to spammers
@@JcgLoungeI play Jin, and I've been playing him since T5, so I don't mash, I still play how I played him in T5 and up, and taht was defensively and to be honest that's my mistake because now they made the game to only support pressure but even then, all the other chars have better plus frames and better move set that cancels Jins out
I dont agree that it was even a good "business" decision to make anything easier because all that does is make veteran players and even new players who are at least semi competent start to resent the developers for treating them like they were children who could never learn to tie their shoelaces. Its like when the class knows who the stupid people are and then those same stupid people start trying to act smart. Everyone knows the teacher is specifically teaching certain methods because the massive idiots cant cope with proper challenge. Making a competitive activity easier does not actually increase the level of fair competition in my opinion, regardless of the cope people will use to say that newer players deserve an easier time getting into it. Because what happens when those newer players become seasoned? Do we expect them to never understand or figure out the depth that we say and have said to be there?
Well yeah people today have smaller attention span (and most gamers are still children) so they need to make games into dopamine dispensers. You can't really do that when you have "Step 1: Movement, Step 2: Attack Buttons, Step 3: Transcendence into higher plane of being"
I think a lot of people forget how different the entirety of tekken 8 is from any iteration. It’s like mw3 , people didn’t like it at first and went back to mw2 and other cods. But for all and intents and purposes mw3 is definitively the better game. We weren’t ready for such a switch up and refinement of the franchise that we just have a real problem mentally adjusting.
Steve got it too. I Couldn't do massage punches as an ender in 7 because it required very fast and precise alternating inputs between 1 and 2. If you fucked up the timing he would stop, and without the full string, it wasn't worth doing. NOW in t8 you can literally just mash 1+2 binded and it will 100% consistently do the input. Sounds weird, but I DONT DESERVE TO DO IT. If I can't do it. Ya know?
@@Notwedsquid you can bind 1+2 in tekken 7 yes. But the massage punch string does not come out consistently if you use that for the input. In 8 it does. That's my point. I don't hate tekken 8 steve. But he is undeniably easier to play than tekken 7 steve. I don't mean from a strength or match up perspective. I mean mechanically it is much easier to DO steve stuff in 8. Than it is in 7.
@@oliverclothezoff3361 i don’t agree at all if anything tekken 8 steve is way harder they took a decent amount of his tools he had in 7 he’s supposed to be the counter hit character but he’s just not king literally took his role steve is undeniably way harder in 8 then 7 but both are still difficult
@@edgelord121 to give you a little perspective on why i believe this is the only issue i have, T7 jin was the first mishima i decided to learn and getting a whiff punish with hook vs electric was night and day. this removal of skill expression hurts. normal mishimas have always launched with a botched electric, jin hasn't done so since T3. T7 Jin was executionally heavy but his electric was perfect, CH hook, launch electric, makes sense for a bastardized mishima style. in other news wind god fist never always launched, T4 ELECTRIC was a CH launch
@@drakonicaegis8868 I know but that was too long ago. In the last 10 years atleast, normal wgf has been a launcher. Also, who tf even considers electric a skill expression, it was literally the easiest thing about tekken 7 jin anyway. What actually made him a hard char was zero okizeme, bad range on key pokes, disfunctional sidestep, arsenal of highly specific and situational moves moves which was hard to keep in mind at all times.
Saying that your main character in a fighting game has to be easy to play, or at least accessible is crazy Virtua Fighter erasure. The three prospective protagonists, Akira, Jacky, and Sarah, are all fairly technical. Akira is the official poster boy, as well as the toughest fighter to get a hang of. Then again, I guess leaving VF out of a discussion is something I should blame SEGA for.
The game didn’t need all of this dumbing down for it to succeed, TK has always been known as the hardest fighting game that was its identity, people literally went to go play TK because of its complexity and now they’re just removing it just so some dude who was hard stuck Green rank in 7 can get to Blue ranks, there is logical reasoning behind Dumbing these characters down, it had to be a investors choice because Harada isn’t this stupid, the main characters on the cover of this game were arguably the hardest characters in the game and that’s what made the game stand out, they’re won’t even be just framed in tekken 9, easy mode electrics for every NPC
Green rankers in T7 are now in high ranks in T8 because you don't have to win 50% of your matches anymore, not because the characters are easy. AND you get 1/3 of a rank buffer when you promote. Also the game is now full of brain dead +17 50/50's where you HAVE to guess with no counter play.
@@Kittysune12SF will always have better numbers than tekken, it’s been like that for like 30 years now, no point of changing now, they’re just making the game have less dexterity by dumbing these characters, Just look at all of the new characters to franchise, all of them including reina are extremely streamlined, Reinna has way too many generic tools to be considered a Mishima to me, her wave dash and electric isn’t needed to play that character
The game is so full of stuff that they needed to make the characters easier so you can focus more on the more aggressive gameplay of the opponent, remember how to use heat etc..
@@sneakerreview4397 actually tekken consistently outsells street fighter, but street fighter brings in a greater revenue. i think the simplification of all the characters is due to the gaming worlds shift toward accessibility in general.
Nina was also simplified a little bit, now you can just mash the chain throws without doing the actual input (you still can do the actual input if you want the extra damage though) and evil mist has a lot more simpler input now
My opinion on simplifying Jin is kind of mixed. Yes, if you wanted to play him optimally he used to be very difficult but the learning curve to get to that point never felt too steep. No new player immediately uses every move in a characters arsenal and you did not need to know every move to start playing Jin. In the beginner ranks you could get by with basically d 3+4 as a 15f launch, d4 and db4 for low poking, df1, b 2,1 or f4 for mid pokes and standing 4 as an easy ch launch for basic frame traps and 2,4 as a good punish + a few strings here and there. From there you could keep adding new tools as you progressed through the skill levels. It always felt natural. Sure, it took a while before you could utilise the character to his full potential but no beginner cares about that. I feel like the Tekken 8 changes target a really, REALLY, casual audience that is unlikely to stick with the game for long anyway, when all it took was better learning tools, maybe character specific tutorials (or something like that) to slowly easy players that are willing to learn and spend time with the game into playing more advanced characters. Don't get me wrong I still like playing Jin in T8, I just think that some of the changes made were unnecessary. That's just my take tho, thx for reading ✌️
I think any discussion on these grounds have to attack the misunderstanding that lies at the center of it all: A "simplified" character is not the same as a "streamlined" character. Simplified describes the gradual progression of input requirements in Street Fighter or Guilty Gear. Even ignoring the most recent, dramatically different entries in both franchises, the somewhat obtuse, obscure inputs required to play at a competent level have been reduced. This effectively reduces the skill floor, but not the potential skill ceiling. Hell, SF2 is often considered the most fulfilling and worthwhile FG experience (by boomers) due to the impressive level of skill expression and tactical nuance you can see during gameplay. This has very little to do with execution. Personally, my biggest issue with all of these changes, especially to Jin, is that it incentivizes thoughtless moment to moment gameplay. When I'm playing Jin, why and how his kit is designed and put together doesn't matter. The new key moves they gave him are so overbearing and powerful, that I don't NEED to consider any other aspect of his kit. I can dominate opponents without even noticing that Jin has a stance. I can win without using some of Jin's more atypical punishment tools. Pokes like 2,1 and 2,1,4 can be thrown out with reckless abandon because there are few proactive ways to stop it. Stopping most forms of offense in T8 forces you to make major commitments, now that I think about it. This is what I would consider streamlining, and you see it across the board for many members of the roster. Effective tactics look similar regardless of who you are playing. Most of it leans heavily upon the Heat System, which piles rewards and momentum on players with easily abusable tools to enter it, and the effects of using Heat look the same regardless of who you are playing, additional quirks be damned. At the end of the day, this makes Tekken 8 seem very narrowly designed and somewhat limited.
i am not against jin, who has been my main since tekken 7, being simplified as well as other characters in the game. as you said, being accessible to everyone is the main reason. tekken isn't and shouldn't be catered to just "legacy" players as i am sure the majority of people who play ranked are not going to spend hours and hours of their day playing. imo everyone has been "dumbed down" the fgc needs to take a good look because all of the characters are strong and you can rank up easily with everyone. also... reina being "difficult" is still the funniest thing i keep hearing. it truly is
Great point. They act like jin is the most egregious character in the game. Take away d2 and you have a different character imo. Nobody talks abt how they OP'd kazuya and I know he is a little hard to polite but damn lol
Zen cancel is still in the game, it’s just much harder to do and not worth it. And therein lies with Jin’s design in 8. He’s less streamlined and instead given 3-4 overtuned moves to the point you don’t have to think or use more of his tool set. Why use db 4 or hellsweep when d2 does everything for you? Why learn to whiff punish or side punish when Demon paw does everything for you? Oh and a stupid heat smash that wallsplats. I do agree Jin should be easy, but not in how he’s been implemented l. He should’ve been a character who can teach you aspects of the game, similar to Claudio or Paul. A character who teaches you the fundamentals of the game with a set kit that is strong but each move serves a different fundamental purpose rather than one move doing everything or one move doing one very specific thing.
Great video, man. I like how you explain it concisely. I could listen to your discussions all day long. When Tekken 8 came out, I immediately played Jin and loved how his zen moves flow throughout his combos. It felt good to land those hits especially online. I then took a long break, just checking out news about tekken here and there. Then when I saw how people played Hehihachi, I bounced at the chance of playing him and I am having a lot of fun playing him online. I am losing a lot because from my short time of playing him, I can tell he is a hard character to be good at. I get happy when I punish something or execute a combo during an online match. Though I am far far away from at least being decent with him, I am having a lot of fun along the way. To me, whether a character is simple to play or execution-heavy depends on the person's mindset when playing the game and I believe that most players get the wrong mindset that you have to be good from the get-go. Simply, this is not the case.
Jin might be for beginners now but tbh why not? I know some veterans hate this but if you put it like this he should be played like a new comer character so for me they did a good job
cause imagine he was already top five and then they buffed him and made him way easier. from a legacy point of view, it doesnt make sense or could be considered bad game design.
Nah that shit is wack, making your main character hard to play would seperate your game from the pack and having the main character of Tekken teach you fundamental Tekken to use him is thematically cool asf. This whole “making Jin easy to play would be better for business” is moot since the game is doing ass right now even with an easier Jin
Simplifying inputs is a good thing. Because of nostalgia and preference, people will complain, but the game largely remains the same. Knowledge, muscle memory and reading the game are still the most important parts. Maybe simplifying inputs can make learning the game easier for newcomers.
Ive seen that as we’ll never played lee in tekken 7 or really much at all but i did notice hes alot easier cause of the tools they have him and some easier combos
Re: Jin changes being good Strong disagree. He wasn't as hard to play as he's made out, not even close. He was hard to master, he had a high skill ceiling, sure, but you could do okay while still learning. And you were rewarded for learning. Now his kit is simplified to the point of d2, ff2, and f4 being all you need and just about all you see. He was my main in 7 and I've stopped playing him entirely because they lobotomized him. The idea of "well if you don't like him, play another Mishima" is misguided because he wasn't really a strict Mishima and you were severely limiting yourself if you played T7 Jin in that way. He was, by my understanding, supposed to be a sort of jack of all trades/master of none, so if you liked a certain element of his game play you'd know what direction to go in picking another character. The balance of the game is being sacrificed to make the protagonist of the Tekken story (lol) a bit more accessible to people who don't care enough about the game to learn how to do a crouch dash, so why the hell would they stick around when the next new game comes out? The franchise slammed its dick in a car door with this game, and Jin is a poster child for this.
It would be nice if you named the pro players that hate the dss change because RIP himself said he didn't care about the change, in fact he welcomed it since that wiggle motion can get tiresome
Hot take. I am BEYOND HAPPY that Jin has been simplified. He is, after all, one of the mascots of Tekken now. Literally the LEAD CHARACTER in this game. The main protagonist. He should be easier for newcomers. He shouldn’t have to be as complicated as Kaz or Heihachi. Much like Ryu from SF is the all-rounder, basic beginner friendly character. He has all the right tools for new players and doesn’t excel at any particular era. I’m glad he’s been simplified.
you talking about how it's surprising it took this long to simplify a mishima makes me miss Kazumi. I know she won't come back but i liked how she really felt like a "mishima for beginners" i wanted to play Heihachi back then but was intimiddated. Then in T8 Reina came about and i've been happy ever since.
2:07 WHF also launches in Tekken 5 DR but first after inputing b1+2 you have to hold 1+2 and input down up back and then forward (if not wrong) then you'll get the spark version that launches on normal hit
4:00 This move is the grifter check. If you whine about this move, you've never played Jin and your opinions are probably copied from other people. It's the worst powercrush move in the game. Not only does it come out of stance (so it's very predictable) it's also the slowest when it absorbs hits. It's so slow that another Jin can do f4 and deal chip damage while you're in armor then have the zen evade the high and punish you with samsara. All other characters can just do df1 to check all your other moves then once they see it get absorbed by your powercrush, they can just quickly fuzzy duck the high and then ws punish you for half of your health.
Allow me to talk alien language here... Yes, I main Ganryu primarily in Tekken. Me and 2 other people on the entire planet. So, I can bestow upon you guys some hidden and obscure knowledge about this character. Hahaha In all seriousness, Ganryu underwent this process already in Tekken 7 and I would even go as far as saying it didn't even start in the "seventh" installment. For starters, he has a handsweep, df+2+3. This move has a small range, but it used to launch on normal. But that's not the most interesting thing about this one. It's the fact that it required the player to do a crouch cancel upon hit confirming it, so they could convert into a decent combo (yeah, you could always do a follow-up from a crouching status which did less damage, but also required the player to start crouching as soon as they confirmed the launch. You would get a mini combo from that). In T7, Bamco changed the behavior of the receiver on hit by changing the animation. The only follow-up you could get now was a FC d1+2 against the wall. So, very situational. As a result, nobody used that one anymore. Sad thing, because I practiced that crouch cancel so much in my life. The second example is his famous df+2. You remember that in previous installments, df+2 didn't launch vertically. It would launch diagonally. To convert it, you would have to do a very strict-timed dash in order to pick up the opponent with "freight train combo" (df+1, 4, 1) in order to keep the juggling going. You could also, of course, do a df+2, 1 and that would leave you in a better situation to claim a combo but with less damage. Another thing I practiced like crazy to do. In short, with exceptions like the follow-up on CH b1+2 > f3+4, he was made easier to use overall. My conclusion: I wouldn't mind the changes if that meant people would pick him up more, but that didn't happen at all. He was still one of the least picked characters online. So, he got dumbed down all for nothing. I can tell you, some characters were already in this silent process way before T8. At least Ganny for me!
I’ve been subscribed to you since T8 dropped. You’re one of my favorite creators. I can’t wait for you to get your flowers and shift to full time content creation!!!
I'm glad Jin is simplified because I think he should be easy to pick up; takes time to master type of character. And as you've already said Kazuya exists for the harder to pick up poster boy.
As someone who has played and mained Jin since Tekken 3, I don't mind the changes to the character, I just think it's a matter of keeping those tools as potentially complex as they were before. I don't mind Jin being simpler, so long as I still have to think about my options the way I used to. I think that's what's important to me. Some things got axed for no good reason imo, like Zen cancelling, I'm not gonna say i'm good at it, i'm not, but it's nice to have. Why get rid of that when a casual probably wouldn't even bother with the mechanic. Same with the old Law dss. So I agree with you, the changes are fine, but they shouldn't be broken even if I benefit off him being insanely strong. The philosophy of the character design should be the same, Jin should be using all the tools available to him because that's the essence of the character, so those tools shouldn't all be god buttons. That's just my personal opinion.
ima keep it real dragunov is by no means easier to play compared to previous installments , however he is easier to win with due to his insane amount of insane moves added in this game and ways for him to enter sneak. Playing him though is mechanically harder than 7 like i played 1300 hours of drag in T7 and the only thing u need to learn is sneak cancelling everything else has always been very easy for him it was simply put "hard to win" cause there was no lows which is why he has a full throw game. But yeah i 100% agree with jin and most of the mishimas for that matter. Free electrics in heat , df 2 on jin giving free electrics and stance mix ups albeit u can beat it with a simple df1 but yeah.
With Law it's a bummer that it's hard to tell the difference between a high level Law and a scrub. However he still needs timing on his CH dss confirms like ch ws4 into dss f1 or the even harder ch ss3 into dss f1 which many people don't talk about. He STILL has execution because you can't mash these confirms
The thing i mained jin for was the parry, parry is everything to me, i mastered that shit hard in 6, i have so many strings from almost every character memorized just so i can parry them, but in 8 its so unreliable and annoying, at first i thought it was a skill issue but turns out its been made slower and has so many caviats, i dont even mind the shorter window, thats totally fine. But i hate that they simplified my guy so much without letting me keep the thing i love the most.
I keep saying this. I used to love fighting Jin because, even though he was still difficult to face, I always knew how to beat him and had a really good win streak against him... with Eddy... yeah... Now in Tekken 8, I dread fighting any Jin player and I never want to see him ever again. The dude got all his weaknesses removed and he is just destruction personified. He feels extremely cheap😢
I guess you forgot to mention or didn't realize that Law's execution is still incentivized in this game. Doing the old execution on his DSS moves gives you additional damage (as indicated by some blue sparks). So, yeah, they still honor your ability to do the old execution by giving you additional damage. This applies to King and a bunch of other characters as well.
Good thing about law, I still doing back forward for dragon stance and it works as it was before in takken 7, mostly happy about new moves that he has now, like junkyard mid option 😊 and nunchaku or insta glide options
Us legacy players sure got shafted with T8 simplification. Not just because of the feeling to lose something special you trained for hundreds of hours ( or more) but also losing satisfaction in the game overall. As DVJ main I enjoyed the fundamental battles vs Kazuya, Heihachi, Jin and Bryan a lot in T7. But that is basically all gone. Neutral between these characters is almost unrecognizable. Kazuya especially lost the most respect. He didnt lose his strong df2 CH ( panic tool) but only gained demon paw ( the best version) and the new mid from CD. Heat gives him the most brainded "parry"/powercrush to ever exist in the game. He also got new df1 extensions. While it was a super enjoyable skill matchup in T7, it is really sad how pathetic average Kazuya gameplay looks like now. Bryan stayed the most like his T7 self with his new high +5 on block beeing the only big exception. Still very cool matches. Except DVJ is now a worse fundamental version of his T7 self. Worse pokes ( worst df1 in the game) , lack of CH launchers, worse Hellsweep, no wall splat from the high laser canon option etc. He has moved towards becoming a gimmick character where as in T7 he was pure fundamentals. So he became much less satisfying. Heihachi lol, dont get me started. Reina is doing her own thing, hybrid mishima but still very fun because she is the fastest Mishima ever in terms of how many buttons you get to press.
I understand your point. But: why should strong tools and esp. moves be locked behind an executional barrier so that only veterans can pull them off? Why is it bad to give all players the same tools and see how they implement them into their strategy, see who plays better tekken? For the same reason street fighter intruduced shortcuts to special inputs. And i do of course not deny that dragunov is too strong - the chars need better balancing.
I played T7 6 and tag 2, and perhaps I'm 1 of the few that enjoy these simplified chars, easy-to-play vibe in T8 make me enjoy the game more when you can do all those crazy stuffs more fluently now. Hard or easy, we still enjoy the game, don't need to complain about it. It's true that games are more fun when no one stuck in your ears tell it suck xD.
Grinding law just to hit tht high execution law combos was so much satisfying , its the reason i loved playing law. But all this satisfaction is now gone because of law baby mode
As somebody new to tekken but familiar with fighting games. I always felt like execution in old Tekken games were hard but in an unintuitive way. It felt more inconsistent than difficult
It is important to adjust the tracking in Dragunov's b+4 strings, b+4,3 cannot be walked by even Lili or Alisa and he has a lot of reward from just doing the move.
Law is my secondary in Tekken 8, and I never even considered playing him in Tekken 7. But if you ask top Law players, they probably appreciate him more now. The execution barrier before was just absurd. He was the only character with an overly complicated input just to enter a stance. I don't see how simplifying that kills the depth of his gameplay-he still has just frames and for the slide from the stance, no high-level player would ever use that move in neutral anyway.
What made me pick up Jin in t7 was how difficult some of his tools were. His hook fist being made easier really turned me off to him and that was super disappointing. I really like how technical he felt. It gave me something to work for when I labbed combos.
What I find to be weird is that people say that every character in t7 was almost generic to each other but I went to practice and learned EVERY character but in t8 I dont have a single drop of desire to learn any other beside my main.
I know I'm gonna piss off a whole lot of people but, the Jin rework is one of the BEST in fighting games imo. There are tons of reasons why including the ones you mentioned as well as story related reasons (I love that his fighting style now includes both Mishima and Kazama style moves as well as stuff from his Devil form cuz the man is finally accepting who he is), however i do agree on him being a bit overtuned (still not as much as the other top tiers imo), like his d2 being -14 ob is insane. If it wasn't for Jin i prolly would have not stuck with the game as much as I did and I also love how despite his execution requirements have been lowered he still has a learing curve and rewards good execution if you have it (you still can do wavedash shenenigans and doing consecutive electrics is still faster than doing it from zen). Give it some time and I feel like this character can truly become one of the most beloved in the community (if they tone him down a bit).
This actually was sad for me as I remembered my older brother maining jin as we grew up playing tekken and all his technicals and now he’s this steamroller.
As a zoomer in the tekken franchise, even I, a law main, hated that they made his DSS easier to do in tekken 8. It's not as fun to do anymore and it gives all previous law players a bad rep.
in regards to drag, i started with tekken 8, learned drag. i went back to learn tekken 7, and i can still see results against decent players in that game even with the very weak drag in that game. his basic gameplan is the same, but yeah his combos are easier so he has much better damage but thats the main difference in his gameplay
I think to a certain extent it's inevitable, though it's kinda sad to see Bandai go the same route as SNK and finally make the box art protag a simple to pick up character, since "oddly hard, technical, high skill floor, protag" gave both Tekken and KoF a distinct flavor.
My problem with Jin's rework is that they completely removed a lot of tech that made him fun to play and lab out. Why did they take zen cancels? What about hellsweep setups? He had some cool resets during his staple launcher. They brought back Omen stance but its nothing more than a gimmick here. They lowered the skill floor which is perfectly OK, but lowered the skill cieling too. Why?
Certain changes were unnecessary with Xiaoyu like them getting rid of all her tilde moves (changing her launcher df+2~1 to b+1+2, her forward flip 4~3 to 3+4, her AOP sweep AOP 4~3 to AOP 3+4). It actually took away some of the fun with doing those inputs. They did make her hyp a much harder input to deal with eliminating b+1+2 with db+1+2. Before it was easy to side step and go into hyp, now it's easier to misinput, also they got rid of the instant block from it, to it is a bit more difficult to use. It seems the devs tried to simplify her, but the changes didn't really do anything.
I view Jin as a let-down because he was reduced from what could be described as a Specialist/Mishima hybrid with an incredibly cool, no-frills Karate fighting style. Now the respectably brick gameplay is reduced to newcomer friendly (I agree that isnt a bad thing necessarily, although he is absolutely over-tuned atm) and his iconically grounded fighting style has stepped away from Karate and into anime protag flips and frills, which to me is the biggest let-down by far of T8 Jin. Law's DSS was always hype to see and was required to do well with him. He has always had a high power ceiling but that power was locked behind the skill ceiling. The power is still there - if not more so - but the skill requirements are astronomically lower. Dragunov is a weird one. He was always a very aggressive character so he was always going to benefit from the T8 system changes. The only complaints I have about him are the fact they gave him a hatchet kick and better tracking. He has a powerful throw game (which counterhit in T8) and INSANE pressure. He should have subpar tracking options and bad lows outside of his almost iconic d2 poke. Patching those holes in his offence is what made him so oppressive. I have gripes with T8's design philosophy in that they remove weaknesses from characters, not that the characters themselves are changing necessarily. Flaws are as important to character identity as strengths and to see them reduced kinda sucks. Even my boy Kaz is guilty of this with how oppressive ff2 is in neutral, allowing him to apply pressure in the neutral like never before, filling the hole in his neutral that is sidestep vulnerability (since ff2 is his only safe-on-block relatively fast mid attack with tracking - although b4 is real good in T8 tbf)
This might not be important but as a Jack main, I love trolling people with Gigaton Punch (even though the success rate of hitting my opponent is 1-2% lol). In the oldest Tekken games, it's the hardest thing to do because the left stick is not functional and the D-pad is too stiff to get this move right. But in later games, the left stick was pretty handy but still kinda hard sometimes especially when I accidentally did not start at 9 o'clock and spin properly. Now in Tekken 8...this is still possible BUT you could simply just hold 1+4 (which can be assigned to a shoulder button for even more easiness). It kinda takes away the hardship of this move BUT they kept the other move control. So I guess it's best in both worlds. Even though competitively this might be a dumb thing by simplifying a hard move but at least it makes someone like me who love troll people with that move use the stick when I prefer a challenge. I guess it's hard to do this with every character by having more than one button combination for the same move sets.
I absolutely hated what they did to Jin cause I liked that he was one of the most difficult chars while also not being one of the traditional mishima's. His electrics and hellsweeps were different, and he had a little more tools that you needed to learn in certain situations. In T8 I played him a little, but switched to Kazuya pretty quickly now I dont even like him in the game, and he used to be my main
dragunov sneak cancel combos are very simplified in this game as well. In T7 the wall carry combo with forward 3 sneak cancel 1 or sneak cancel 4 4 had a good bit of execution to it, now drags combos are super streamlined and simple. as well as heavily damaging. Drag lost a lot of his identity in this game, despite getting one of the best visual upgrades I've ever seen. His gameplan is so simple that I kind of got bored of playing him, as it feels like you kind of approach every character with kind of the same plan. he's the sum total of 4 broken moves, sneak 4, back 3,1,2, back 4,4 and hatchet kick. with just these tools he can run an effective offense at a pretty high level (I'm blue ranks so not terribly high)
You mentioned it in the video but there's no need for the character complexity simplification, casuals never did the hard shit so they won't notice and veterans will be pissed off they are getting a watered down version of their character. Casuals are appeased by cool/novel shit outside of fighting each other; tekken ball, story mode, interesting avatar lobby system etc.
Eh even as a Law main I think it's the easy slide cancel from DSS that mattered the most for easy execution. Even for just intermediate players there shouldn't be an issue hitting DSS for ender or to float from 4,3. It's the WS4 loops that got way easier granted while it was more impressive to pressure previous it's not like you needed perfect inputs unless your opponent was the kind to test you by mashing out a Jab to see if you were too slow in your execution. The thing that made him much easier now is that Nunchuk serves as basically the best Oki he's ever had even post nerf. Like even in a mirror match against another Law while we could try to impress each other with combos I'd rather just go for masku setups and see if they know how to stand up.
I disagree Law, needed his simplification of DSS, it is the best decision made by the devs, almost every other character in Tekken 7 required holding a certain input to switch to their stance. Where law required total of 3 different input for DSS from variety of different moves. Tekken 8 just simplifies this and now you can switch to DSS by holding a certain input like every other character in the game.
I have no problem with them simplifying inputs. Tekken is a mental game . Wrangling with your controller to express what’s in your mind shouldn’t be a thing . But dumbing down game plans and making perfect moves with little to no counter play is wack.
This is why i like Tekken more than street fighter. You don’t need to do motions inputs 90% of the time and there isn’t some jank 6 button system which is the biggest problem for me.
mental clarity and dexterity are both parts of the entire thing. Wrangling your brush is how you get a painting out. twisting your racket is you spin a tennis ball. "Im a genius in my head i just have trouble actually doing anything" is not a valid excuse for not performing well in an activity. Its the same criticism of hero shooters. why aim when you can use an AOE ability because "FPS is a positioning and awareness game, wrangling your controller to actually hit the shot shouldnt be a thing" is just as easy a cope
you lack the IQ to handle mental stack and execution. a billion games are designed for people like you. we wanted tekken to remain outside of this area.
Jin = Main Hero. Always need to be simplefied for a big audience. New comers have no problem to play him now. Compared Bryan or Kazuya he is hard to read, because he is a "new" character with his new move sets. He is now more "evasiv" compared to T7. Dragonov is the designers "golden child". Even after the heavy nerfs he is still OP. He the complete package. Counter, universal parry, low parry, faint grabbing, unbreakable trows, high damage, high plus frames, strong 50:50 and very good wall carry. He eptomize the T8 phiolosphy of attack and rewards. Joshi and Alisa: Are just jokes character. Easily in Top 3. Joshi's "Flash" is maby the best boss move in this game.
I don't like when people say that Law is brain dead now, most players are not sweats or competitive players, having access to the other half of his kit is just nice.
When you say Law has cheese, you are referring to what exactly? I have been playing Law since TT1 almost, couple of things 1-3 Bar law myth in TK7, when the connection is bad, you notice that it is a two-way road, right? so for especially a character with high execution like Law whose even bread and butter combos needs perfect DSS, a delayed crappy net means dropping combos and less damage when Law’s combo damage was below the average in TK7 to begin with. So, what is the 3Bar thing that you just repeat like other streamers? Like if his dragon tail (Which realistically if you use, you are dead unless you are at 3rd dan rank playin(lol) ) becomes invisible, Kazuya hell sweep, Brian's snake edge, or Lili's low sweep would has a different property that makes them seeable??? Which of his move becomes better that the other party cannot use? 2- Junkyard, is cheese? The string is around since TS3 (just like his dragon storm and basically one of his issue is he is too much predictable because he never gets many new moves) and if you get hit by it without low parry the second hit you are either lucky, or the other side is a very bad player; have you seen any player in tournament use this unless they have a death wish? Have you seen other characters launching combos? Brian many combos that can counter launch you with one single addition of punch with a million damage for example? Your definition of cheese is based on a total newcomer to the game. 3- DSS puts law in a very good frame, OK, but what you don’t say probably because you don’t play him like many other streamers is his options for follow up are at best a 12-frame high punch, and nothing is guaranteed, so, the biggest thing law gets is that you need to respect him after certain strings be finished (If you can’t side step or even jab him out of many of his options); fairly is he very unique in this? Is he? You want to talk about Heichachy’s guard break or Steve gaud break, or plus frames to start the arguments? You want to bring Riena’s chain combos? Should I keep going? So, what is this myth that Law out of a while-standing 4 gets 17+ on hit? OK, if that is super duper good, and now that has been as easy as holding forward, why don’t you see Law players dominating the ranks? The answer is because law does not get 17+ on natural, he is in DSS and does not best options, not to mention it is not consistent, even in TK8 let alone TK7. Don’t by my word go and listen to a top law player like RIP talking about law DSS not being consistent in TK8. 4- Final word that closes the argument: go check online win-ratio based on characters in a finished Tekken like TK7. Low is at the very bottom, (I am not exaggerating, go and check) and even in Tekken 8 go and check, he is now below the average, so how this amount of cheese is not working, is the cheese bad? Or maybe he is out-cheesed by many, many, many other characters. If you don't like a character, that is fine, I hate Bryan, or Lilie or Riana or even Heichachy (I main Law, Kazuya and Leo) but don't make judgments based on that.
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What do you guys think about the simplification of characters in Tekken 8?
ps, join my discord (: discord.com/invite/XpGg82YRJD
None of it was needed.
You really cannot categorize Law to be as "simplified". With Law, if his core was shaped like an octogon in T7, they removed 5 sides of his core, making his core a triangle' in T8.
Even though transitition to DC/DSS has been made to one direction ie Forward, the time it takes for it come out is the same as B,B,F. And since it doesn't have precise or just frame execution, it can be interupted or sidewalked or take damage 99% of time making it almost pointless. The removal of transition of DC/DSS from certain moves also reduces the efficiancy of Law.
The same applies for the simplification of the slide; can be lowparried, full launched when blocked, and can be side walked. Law needs to be realigned after every move. It is not easy to rank and collect wins with Law on any rank when going against intermediate to pro level players.
Jin is OP level simplified. Dragunouv is the Blue Print of how Every Tekken Character should be with Heihachi (Law 2.0) coming in a close second.
You really cannot categorize Law to be "simplified"; if Law's core was octagonal in shape in T7, the devs removed 5 sides of his core, changing his core into a "Triangle".
Even though the transition into DC has been reduced to one direction i.e. Forward, the time it takes for Law to transistion to DC is the same as previous DSS i.e Back, Back, Forward. And because of the transition lacks of "just frames" execution, it can be interupted, sidestepped or receive recoverable damage 99% of the time making the simpliification almost pointless. The same applies for Law's slide that can be full launched on block, low parried, and sidestepped. This doesn't allow Law to win and go up in ranks when going against intermediate/legacy players of other characters.
Jin is simplified to be OP. Dragunov... is the Blue Print of how all Characters should play in T8, with Heihachi (or Law 2.0) coming in a close second.
I think most characters in Tekken 8 have benefited from simplification of executions of moves. Law benefited by making him more accessible to players in a mid level. Even now you don't come across too many Law players at high level. Even in blue ranks coming across a Law player is far and few in-between. Prior Tekken games there were 2 levels of Law players...the noobs and the extremely good who had time to master DSS and fundamentals. The ease of use going into the new Dragon Charge allows players to learn fundamentals without having to smash their controller into pieces because of execution with DSS. Also let's not forget DSS wasn't always the same execution in any given scenario. WS4 DSS was a whole next level to it. But for legacy players, the OG input is still there, just with less reward.
they ruined the game tekken 7 had 3k players and tekken 8 has 5k. not good improvement
It just hurts so much when you practiced ws4 dss for three years and suddenly it's not in the game anymore, while df2 pewgf, tju and all lee justframes are still there
yeah, it was cool watching people do crazy stuff with ws4 dss
This .... I spent a year of my early tekken time in practice mode. Starting with legend kick combo ender, then ws4 dss. Then t8 hits and that year is pointless, very disappointing :/
@@zmogray The first time i confirmed my ws4 ch into 3+4 in a ranked match, then in a tournament, will never forget that feeling. Such a pointless change
Agreed….same way as a beginner (coming straight from tekken 3) in tekken 7 I picked steve as main and lee and bryan as subs….took 3 yrs to reach emperor with steve and I guess raijin with lee..mastered shiro combo from both sides…in tekken 8 can’t bear the sight of crappy version of steve..lee is better but still not that good compared to rest of the roaster….*so I now main law😈*
@@HenryNesta-o5b So what did you do with the cable?
We love dumbing down and ruining the identities of games to bring in a super temporary casual audience that'll just move on to another game in a week
Exactly and when the hardcore fans finally have had enough and move on because the game completely lost its identity the developers and lead directors are going to be looking stupid.
their 70$ are worth the same as your 70$ unfortunately.
maybe with time they will throw the veterans a bone. i dont expect anything in the first 3 years of this game.
Yeah then what? Move to another 3D Fighter? Have fun playing Soul Calibur or DoA6 😂
@@DespairMagic i am having fun playing DOa5 survival mode or older 3d beat em ups like Urban Reign. on the weekends im getting matches in T7 quick match as well.
That will move to *sparking zero 😂
what hurts me most about law is that you could simply have both. you could just give perfect frames and blue sparks only for legacy input dss. it would be a minuscule change for casual players but MASSIVE for law mains. you would still be able to do a lot with the character, but you would have back that almost unlimited ceiling for optimization and execution with just a tiny change
The most upsetting part is he does have bluesparks, but its just pressing it fast lol.
Omg..this is actually a huge fix and they really need to bring it...this is coming from a law player who greatly benefited from the simplification of dss in t8..bring legacy input back please, was one thing that made marshall so cool and when a high level playe had that execution it was nothing but respectt 😎
Oh I was crying about it in beta alot But then later moved on.
Edit-Nvm I went back to t7 law today still stuck at 43 dss legend kick ender. Could not land one in Infinite stage. Tho doing combos with akuma was fun. But he is never going to be in t8 sed.
does he not literally have that
@@neowo7378 you can use the legacy input but it works exactly the same. you have no incentive to be technical and precise. and it doesn't work because the game tracks the legacy input, it works because a perfectly timed dss ends with tapping or holding foward, which is the same as the modern input anyways. it's like doing a kickflip and just landing on a skateboard and both being recognized as the same because it ended in the same way
I think most people don't understand the depth and value in high execution. It adds another layer in how you approach an opponent: "I know this guy's an execution monster and will always go for the hardest setups and combos" or "This guy doesn't have the execution for these setups, he will try them rarely if ever". It makes the moments when they pull off something nasty way more hype and memorable, like in sports, only the top athletes are able to pull off this kind of thing consistently or even at all. Instead, if we streamlined execution, you wouldn't have a valid reason for ever not doing the optimal stuff, just look at how differently knee and jimmyjtran play, one plays a more fundamental and grounded tekken, with some taunt setups, meanwhile jimmyjt goes for the jetuppers constantly and is playing very unorthodox.
All of this, without impacting the casual player in any way; People forget what it really means to be casual, they have no clue what optimal combos are or what the hell a set up is, it's not what's stopping them from enjoying fighting games casually
I guess it makes sense that they dumbed Jin down a lot since they really wanted to emphasize him as the main character of the game and be more accessible to everyone, but damn I miss Tekken 7 Jin. He was the apex version of the character and hella cool to play
Dumb down. Ok i wanna see you spamming out advanced electrics and electric uppercut combos with 70+ damage than we can talk. It's still a huge different to see an advanced Jin player like Devilster, Book or CBM compared to regular purple Jins in online matches. Huge different. When people say easy to play they obviously show how little they even know about this game. Alisa or Victor are even much simpler to play than Jin but yeah "dumbed down"
@@Mentis-de I think it's insane people like you still exist when Jin has shit like scourge, insane demon paw and a borderline homing heat smash (along with improved range and execution removal) and claim that he wasn't dumbed down from his Tekken 7 version
Jin still having some execution and Jin being dumbed down and made simpler than his Tekken 7 version are not mutually exclusive. No one in their right mind would claim that Jin is still as difficult and complex as he was in Tekken 7 if not at least marginally easier to play and understand
You are all dumbed down and arguing about things you would actually agree with if not for being argumentative.
Jin has a much lower barrier for entry and he also still has a very high ceiling. Pretty simple but yall wna argue
Also tekken 8 Jin is literally more complex than tekken 7, idk where that claim comes from. Ig if we wna debate the complexities of a winning gameplan with less... but he literally has more tech/tools at his disposal than before.
Tekken 7 jin still is cool from my memory, his moves and combos seemed so cool compared to now, now he just feels like your typical big buff dude thats gonma beat you up with nonstop aggression, with a hint of anime emo powers 🤣
@@Mentis-de the thing is you don't need to do that when you play Jin.
He is dumb af and you get great results with him but you can take him to really obscene levels still but you just don't need to which sucks
How dare TH-cam hide this video from me for 5 minutes
😅😅
I really thought King was going to be mentioned here because they simplified his chain grabs even
ppl overlook other legacy characters like king and nina just to mention JIN, like, i think we all know he is easy to pilot and popular in ranked we get it, tell us something new lol
The damage is actually weaker when you mash the chain grab, also it’s much more easier to break now since you only need to hold the button needed to break the grab
King's chain grabs are simpler at a low level, but still require execution if you want the most out of them. Doing the inputs gives more damage, and iirc gives better okie
The input is so dumb that you can spam ki charge after grabbing a dude into a screwdriver and game will confirm every button cuz ki charge has all 4 of them
Yeah but despite chaingrabs he still is difficult to play. Related to these characters
1. Jin was simplified to the point where he was to portrayed as the protagonist of the series and was made to be accessible to everyone and no longer being used by specialists.
2. Law was changed to the point where his DSS stance transition was simplified where anyone else can do it by holding forward.
3. As for Dragunov he considered the worst version of the character and end of Tekken 7 in season 4, until Tekken 8 he was completely reworked to the point where he like play to win character with no weakness.
ADHD version :D
“Play to win”?
>Jin's mental health gets better
>starts playing easier
I think Harada should mind break Jin so he takes skill. Clearly that's what needs to be done
feels like literally every character lol
edit: kazuya ff2 is so obscenely busted that it removed most of the difficulty from the character ( actually playing neutral) lol
Na they just chose a few for noobs. Steve, devil jin etc are still hard. Kaz released weaker than tekken 7. They buffed him after lot of conplaints so now he hits like a truck. But again high risk high reward playstyle like typical mishimas.
@@SuperfoodcookieIt just sucks how he constantly puts you in a 50/50 blender. Frustrating to fight sometimes
@@omegaweapon116 That's all mishimas. That's also been in place for a long time before tekken 8. Mishimas have wave dash/leg sweeps or electric launch. It's one or the other. That's part of their kit. Tekken 7 had defensive 50/50. Back dashing was very strong in tekken 7. So yeah they made it more aggressive which is "easier" for noobs as fighting games people usually spam hence it seems more apparent.
Kazuya was already simplified during T7 with moves like FF4 or WS 1+2, plus his combos are easy, consistent and very damaging save doing a PWEFG from df2 which is not a requirement and it still gives a lesser combo. Come T8, he has the better demon paw, patricide fist, some busted shit in devil form AND even heat gimmicks and new scrubby laser moves to catch opponets off guard, and yet people only find it in themselves to complain about Jin bcs of d2 and samsara, which become dogshit as you climb lol
@@hyunka2756 it is very true that many ppl have shamed jin for being so easy and “braindead” while we are all just going to give kazuya a pass because he is so “hard to pilot” lol not to mention that kazuya/ mishima bros are the loudest when it comes to trashing on jin.
yes, from the start, kazuya was bugged and his combo utility was garbage that made him bottom tier but he has been fixed and is very strong and tournament viable yet ppl ignore how privileged he actually is lmao
Just wanted to say: NO, Jin being simplified wasn't a good idea just bc he is the protagonist, Mishimas are so hard bc they are so strong, if you keep the strength but take away the difficulty the game becomes broken. To me it looks like the developers never played a Tekken game.
"Jin should feel suicidal again if character development means dumbed down gameplay."
Sega would never simplify Akira.
facts
i never thought i would see mishima and strong in one sentence, sure they are hard to play but its because they're honest character. and tekken developer never play tekken? bruh harada plays tekken, there's no way he doesn't have a say during development 😂
Chatting, mishimas have never been the strongest characters aside from maybe og tekken games
As someone who actually started with Tekken 8 as their first traditional fighter, I can't lie and say I don't understand where veterans of the series are coming from. Tekken being difficult to play was apart of it's identity and made it so rewarding when you finally got the hang of it. But at the same time Tekken 8 made me a fan of this series it made me wanna check out the older titles because I really enjoyed what I played in 8. Tekken 8 helped make me appreciate this series but I won't deny the fact it Alienated a lot of older players.
Let’s play some tekken 8
You just explained it yourself you started with tekken 8 so you wouldn’t know why veterans hate the game being dumbed down but tekken 8 isn’t even dumbed down thats the funny part
A lot of these arguments and shit are like a tekken only debate from the outside looking in tekken is still extremely hard. Even a “easy” character like Jin is hard if you’ve literally never played a tekken game
@@Notwedsquid YES YES IT IS LOL
@@Gekkoukitsune9 no it isnt its still the same difficult game you still have characters with execution you need to learn the new moves on character that were added gotta learn the heat moves which ones are engagers and which are not.
They are hurting their dedicated players to please casuals who don't even care about the series and aren't even gonna stick around for it anyway.
The ironic thing about it is that casuals don't care how hard a character is to play, they are CASUALS. They don't understand the game on a deep enough level nor care anyway. The worst part about it is how they always make easy characters the most broken as well so they're not only easy but ruin the game for everyone. It's a slap in the face in my opinion.
I’m a casual. I didn’t become a full on Tekken fan until T8 because I had a bad experience with T7. To say that I’m not gonna stick around with this game for long to me is disingenuous. I’ve been hyping this game up since the earlier character trailers. I’ve been playing this game since May of this year and have been enjoying it ever since. Despite all the controversy around it, and the fact that I’m not that great at Tekken anyways, I still have fun with the game and will continue learning it. I’m with this game till the end. The dedicated players aren’t all gonna leave but the ones that will or already did, imo, they’re the gatekeepers who don’t want a franchise like this to expand its audience. To bring in newcomers who want to enjoy these games. I’m sorry if that’s how you feel. But I’m not just gonna drop this game like you said. For the folks that have dropped this game, well, they never were excited for this game to begin with.
@@JcgLoungeto be honest, I don't have a problem with new players like you just the problem with how they made the game beginner friendly and because of it they made it a game where if someone mashes they can win from it where as other people take months to learn the game mechanics only too lose because of new players who spam time and time again, like this week alone, I've demoted and promoted between the same rank 6-7 times due to spammers
@@JcgLoungeI play Jin, and I've been playing him since T5, so I don't mash, I still play how I played him in T5 and up, and taht was defensively and to be honest that's my mistake because now they made the game to only support pressure but even then, all the other chars have better plus frames and better move set that cancels Jins out
I literally stopped playing Law because they removed the DSS execution 😭 I practiced so well for that in T7
I stopped playing Jin. I played him from the beginning. But this mindless shit has nothing to do with him.
I switched to lee. Waiting for my boii lei
I dont agree that it was even a good "business" decision to make anything easier because all that does is make veteran players and even new players who are at least semi competent start to resent the developers for treating them like they were children who could never learn to tie their shoelaces. Its like when the class knows who the stupid people are and then those same stupid people start trying to act smart. Everyone knows the teacher is specifically teaching certain methods because the massive idiots cant cope with proper challenge.
Making a competitive activity easier does not actually increase the level of fair competition in my opinion, regardless of the cope people will use to say that newer players deserve an easier time getting into it. Because what happens when those newer players become seasoned? Do we expect them to never understand or figure out the depth that we say and have said to be there?
Well yeah people today have smaller attention span (and most gamers are still children) so they need to make games into dopamine dispensers. You can't really do that when you have "Step 1: Movement, Step 2: Attack Buttons, Step 3: Transcendence into higher plane of being"
Been using DSS since T7. I dont mind its easier now. Makes it even easier for me.
You are a perfect Example why the game was dumbed down
@@azteckjumbie9344 Thanks man. Let’s go! Atleast its accessible to many now.
I think a lot of people forget how different the entirety of tekken 8 is from any iteration. It’s like mw3 , people didn’t like it at first and went back to mw2 and other cods. But for all and intents and purposes mw3 is definitively the better game. We weren’t ready for such a switch up and refinement of the franchise that we just have a real problem mentally adjusting.
Steve got it too. I Couldn't do massage punches as an ender in 7 because it required very fast and precise alternating inputs between 1 and 2. If you fucked up the timing he would stop, and without the full string, it wasn't worth doing. NOW in t8 you can literally just mash 1+2 binded and it will 100% consistently do the input. Sounds weird, but I DONT DESERVE TO DO IT. If I can't do it. Ya know?
You could’ve just binded the input in tekken 7 as well their really isnt a difference in tekken 7 to hate 8 steve is still insanely difficult
@@Notwedsquid you can bind 1+2 in tekken 7 yes. But the massage punch string does not come out consistently if you use that for the input. In 8 it does. That's my point. I don't hate tekken 8 steve. But he is undeniably easier to play than tekken 7 steve. I don't mean from a strength or match up perspective. I mean mechanically it is much easier to DO steve stuff in 8. Than it is in 7.
@@oliverclothezoff3361 i don’t agree at all if anything tekken 8 steve is way harder they took a decent amount of his tools he had in 7 he’s supposed to be the counter hit character but he’s just not king literally took his role steve is undeniably way harder in 8 then 7 but both are still difficult
@@Notwedsquid dude... learn how to read, please😢
Steve has always had the easier and better version than Bryan anyways
Normal Wind Hook Fist shouldn’t launch. That is my only complaint on the simplification of Jin, over-tuned kit is a different discussion
That, and his parry got nerfed. And zen cancels aren't really worth doing anymore
@@tablematts9055 nah it is worth mastering it gives another layer in combos and after f4
Normal wind god fist has always launched, what about that?
@@edgelord121 to give you a little perspective on why i believe this is the only issue i have, T7 jin was the first mishima i decided to learn and getting a whiff punish with hook vs electric was night and day. this removal of skill expression hurts. normal mishimas have always launched with a botched electric, jin hasn't done so since T3. T7 Jin was executionally heavy but his electric was perfect, CH hook, launch electric, makes sense for a bastardized mishima style.
in other news wind god fist never always launched, T4 ELECTRIC was a CH launch
@@drakonicaegis8868 I know but that was too long ago. In the last 10 years atleast, normal wgf has been a launcher. Also, who tf even considers electric a skill expression, it was literally the easiest thing about tekken 7 jin anyway. What actually made him a hard char was zero okizeme, bad range on key pokes, disfunctional sidestep, arsenal of highly specific and situational moves moves which was hard to keep in mind at all times.
Jin’s d2 is safe and there’s no need for other lows? Red ranks mindset
Saying that your main character in a fighting game has to be easy to play, or at least accessible is crazy Virtua Fighter erasure.
The three prospective protagonists, Akira, Jacky, and Sarah, are all fairly technical. Akira is the official poster boy, as well as the toughest fighter to get a hang of.
Then again, I guess leaving VF out of a discussion is something I should blame SEGA for.
The game didn’t need all of this dumbing down for it to succeed, TK has always been known as the hardest fighting game that was its identity, people literally went to go play TK because of its complexity and now they’re just removing it just so some dude who was hard stuck Green rank in 7 can get to Blue ranks, there is logical reasoning behind Dumbing these characters down, it had to be a investors choice because Harada isn’t this stupid, the main characters on the cover of this game were arguably the hardest characters in the game and that’s what made the game stand out, they’re won’t even be just framed in tekken 9, easy mode electrics for every NPC
maybe they saw SF6 blowing up and decide to make T8 more friendly toward newcomer ?
Green rankers in T7 are now in high ranks in T8 because you don't have to win 50% of your matches anymore, not because the characters are easy. AND you get 1/3 of a rank buffer when you promote.
Also the game is now full of brain dead +17 50/50's where you HAVE to guess with no counter play.
@@Kittysune12SF will always have better numbers than tekken, it’s been like that for like 30 years now, no point of changing now, they’re just making the game have less dexterity by dumbing these characters, Just look at all of the new characters to franchise, all of them including reina are extremely streamlined, Reinna has way too many generic tools to be considered a Mishima to me, her wave dash and electric isn’t needed to play that character
The game is so full of stuff that they needed to make the characters easier so you can focus more on the more aggressive gameplay of the opponent, remember how to use heat etc..
@@sneakerreview4397 actually tekken consistently outsells street fighter, but street fighter brings in a greater revenue. i think the simplification of all the characters is due to the gaming worlds shift toward accessibility in general.
Nina was also simplified a little bit, now you can just mash the chain throws without doing the actual input (you still can do the actual input if you want the extra damage though) and evil mist has a lot more simpler input now
Wait. You can put in the chain throw inputs with Nina to get extra damage?
My opinion on simplifying Jin is kind of mixed. Yes, if you wanted to play him optimally he used to be very difficult but the learning curve to get to that point never felt too steep.
No new player immediately uses every move in a characters arsenal and you did not need to know every move to start playing Jin. In the beginner ranks you could get by with basically d 3+4 as a 15f launch, d4 and db4 for low poking, df1, b 2,1 or f4 for mid pokes and standing 4 as an easy ch launch for basic frame traps and 2,4 as a good punish + a few strings here and there. From there you could keep adding new tools as you progressed through the skill levels. It always felt natural.
Sure, it took a while before you could utilise the character to his full potential but no beginner cares about that.
I feel like the Tekken 8 changes target a really, REALLY, casual audience that is unlikely to stick with the game for long anyway, when all it took was better learning tools, maybe character specific tutorials (or something like that) to slowly easy players that are willing to learn and spend time with the game into playing more advanced characters.
Don't get me wrong I still like playing Jin in T8, I just think that some of the changes made were unnecessary.
That's just my take tho, thx for reading ✌️
I think any discussion on these grounds have to attack the misunderstanding that lies at the center of it all:
A "simplified" character is not the same as a "streamlined" character.
Simplified describes the gradual progression of input requirements in Street Fighter or Guilty Gear. Even ignoring the most recent, dramatically different entries in both franchises, the somewhat obtuse, obscure inputs required to play at a competent level have been reduced.
This effectively reduces the skill floor, but not the potential skill ceiling. Hell, SF2 is often considered the most fulfilling and worthwhile FG experience (by boomers) due to the impressive level of skill expression and tactical nuance you can see during gameplay. This has very little to do with execution.
Personally, my biggest issue with all of these changes, especially to Jin, is that it incentivizes thoughtless moment to moment gameplay. When I'm playing Jin, why and how his kit is designed and put together doesn't matter. The new key moves they gave him are so overbearing and powerful, that I don't NEED to consider any other aspect of his kit.
I can dominate opponents without even noticing that Jin has a stance. I can win without using some of Jin's more atypical punishment tools. Pokes like 2,1 and 2,1,4 can be thrown out with reckless abandon because there are few proactive ways to stop it. Stopping most forms of offense in T8 forces you to make major commitments, now that I think about it.
This is what I would consider streamlining, and you see it across the board for many members of the roster. Effective tactics look similar regardless of who you are playing. Most of it leans heavily upon the Heat System, which piles rewards and momentum on players with easily abusable tools to enter it, and the effects of using Heat look the same regardless of who you are playing, additional quirks be damned.
At the end of the day, this makes Tekken 8 seem very narrowly designed and somewhat limited.
i am not against jin, who has been my main since tekken 7, being simplified as well as other characters in the game. as you said, being accessible to everyone is the main reason. tekken isn't and shouldn't be catered to just "legacy" players as i am sure the majority of people who play ranked are not going to spend hours and hours of their day playing.
imo everyone has been "dumbed down" the fgc needs to take a good look because all of the characters are strong and you can rank up easily with everyone. also... reina being "difficult" is still the funniest thing i keep hearing. it truly is
Great point. They act like jin is the most egregious character in the game. Take away d2 and you have a different character imo. Nobody talks abt how they OP'd kazuya and I know he is a little hard to polite but damn lol
@KDBSPORTS_ENT Kazuya is op? What crack you smokin?
@@alondjeckto Ever since his buffs, his damage is OP imo.
@@KDBSPORTS_ENTkazuya mains love to downplay how strong he truly is in tekken 8! lmao
A lot of people overlook how Bryan too is insanely stupid
Tekken isn't just a game. It's a lifestyle.
Read that again.
Zen cancel is still in the game, it’s just much harder to do and not worth it. And therein lies with Jin’s design in 8. He’s less streamlined and instead given 3-4 overtuned moves to the point you don’t have to think or use more of his tool set. Why use db 4 or hellsweep when d2 does everything for you? Why learn to whiff punish or side punish when Demon paw does everything for you? Oh and a stupid heat smash that wallsplats.
I do agree Jin should be easy, but not in how he’s been implemented l. He should’ve been a character who can teach you aspects of the game, similar to Claudio or Paul. A character who teaches you the fundamentals of the game with a set kit that is strong but each move serves a different fundamental purpose rather than one move doing everything or one move doing one very specific thing.
Great video, man. I like how you explain it concisely. I could listen to your discussions all day long. When Tekken 8 came out, I immediately played Jin and loved how his zen moves flow throughout his combos. It felt good to land those hits especially online. I then took a long break, just checking out news about tekken here and there.
Then when I saw how people played Hehihachi, I bounced at the chance of playing him and I am having a lot of fun playing him online. I am losing a lot because from my short time of playing him, I can tell he is a hard character to be good at. I get happy when I punish something or execute a combo during an online match.
Though I am far far away from at least being decent with him, I am having a lot of fun along the way. To me, whether a character is simple to play or execution-heavy depends on the person's mindset when playing the game and I believe that most players get the wrong mindset that you have to be good from the get-go. Simply, this is not the case.
Jin might be for beginners now but tbh why not? I know some veterans hate this but if you put it like this he should be played like a new comer character so for me they did a good job
cause imagine he was already top five and then they buffed him and made him way easier. from a legacy point of view, it doesnt make sense or could be considered bad game design.
@@dvjxnzI kinda don’t mind because Jin was never consistent in top level play. You barely saw him in tournaments for T7.
Because it's impossible to be bad at him, but you still get infinite reward.
Nah that shit is wack, making your main character hard to play would seperate your game from the pack and having the main character of Tekken teach you fundamental Tekken to use him is thematically cool asf. This whole “making Jin easy to play would be better for business” is moot since the game is doing ass right now even with an easier Jin
@@bebop306 because the other top tiers of tekken 7 were braindead easy unlike jin so only actual jin players would use him in tournies.
Simplifying inputs is a good thing. Because of nostalgia and preference, people will complain, but the game largely remains the same. Knowledge, muscle memory and reading the game are still the most important parts. Maybe simplifying inputs can make learning the game easier for newcomers.
Steve is the ultimate simplified character. 2 buttons for attacking, kick buttons dodge. That’s why he’s my main
lee also feels very simplified. his combos are so easy I can do them after 12 beers
Ive seen that as we’ll never played lee in tekken 7 or really much at all but i did notice hes alot easier cause of the tools they have him and some easier combos
Tekken 7 lee was pretty easy combo wise it’s just that lag would make it impossible
The thing I liked about Tekken 8 is how they take risk and try new things and add it to the formula of their gameplay.
Like nerfing backdash and parries, removing chicken and knockdown? Or the entirety of heat mechanic?
@@mid9blissRIP Jin Parry.
Yeah, mostly price formula for DLCs and cosmetics...
@@tablematts9055 rip leroy parry too :(
Re: Jin changes being good
Strong disagree. He wasn't as hard to play as he's made out, not even close. He was hard to master, he had a high skill ceiling, sure, but you could do okay while still learning. And you were rewarded for learning. Now his kit is simplified to the point of d2, ff2, and f4 being all you need and just about all you see. He was my main in 7 and I've stopped playing him entirely because they lobotomized him. The idea of "well if you don't like him, play another Mishima" is misguided because he wasn't really a strict Mishima and you were severely limiting yourself if you played T7 Jin in that way. He was, by my understanding, supposed to be a sort of jack of all trades/master of none, so if you liked a certain element of his game play you'd know what direction to go in picking another character. The balance of the game is being sacrificed to make the protagonist of the Tekken story (lol) a bit more accessible to people who don't care enough about the game to learn how to do a crouch dash, so why the hell would they stick around when the next new game comes out? The franchise slammed its dick in a car door with this game, and Jin is a poster child for this.
It would be nice if you named the pro players that hate the dss change because RIP himself said he didn't care about the change, in fact he welcomed it since that wiggle motion can get tiresome
Hot take. I am BEYOND HAPPY that Jin has been simplified. He is, after all, one of the mascots of Tekken now. Literally the LEAD CHARACTER in this game. The main protagonist. He should be easier for newcomers. He shouldn’t have to be as complicated as Kaz or Heihachi. Much like Ryu from SF is the all-rounder, basic beginner friendly character. He has all the right tools for new players and doesn’t excel at any particular era. I’m glad he’s been simplified.
Your point about the while-running mechanic changing universally is also true for stances. Maybe that's a big reason Law is simpler?
you talking about how it's surprising it took this long to simplify a mishima makes me miss Kazumi. I know she won't come back but i liked how she really felt like a "mishima for beginners" i wanted to play Heihachi back then but was intimiddated. Then in T8 Reina came about and i've been happy ever since.
4:50 Im so glad you mentioned this scenario, I've never heard it discussed
2:07 WHF also launches in Tekken 5 DR but first after inputing b1+2 you have to hold 1+2 and input down up back and then forward (if not wrong) then you'll get the spark version that launches on normal hit
4:00 This move is the grifter check. If you whine about this move, you've never played Jin and your opinions are probably copied from other people. It's the worst powercrush move in the game. Not only does it come out of stance (so it's very predictable) it's also the slowest when it absorbs hits. It's so slow that another Jin can do f4 and deal chip damage while you're in armor then have the zen evade the high and punish you with samsara. All other characters can just do df1 to check all your other moves then once they see it get absorbed by your powercrush, they can just quickly fuzzy duck the high and then ws punish you for half of your health.
Allow me to talk alien language here...
Yes, I main Ganryu primarily in Tekken. Me and 2 other people on the entire planet. So, I can bestow upon you guys some hidden and obscure knowledge about this character. Hahaha
In all seriousness, Ganryu underwent this process already in Tekken 7 and I would even go as far as saying it didn't even start in the "seventh" installment.
For starters, he has a handsweep, df+2+3. This move has a small range, but it used to launch on normal. But that's not the most interesting thing about this one. It's the fact that it required the player to do a crouch cancel upon hit confirming it, so they could convert into a decent combo (yeah, you could always do a follow-up from a crouching status which did less damage, but also required the player to start crouching as soon as they confirmed the launch. You would get a mini combo from that). In T7, Bamco changed the behavior of the receiver on hit by changing the animation. The only follow-up you could get now was a FC d1+2 against the wall. So, very situational. As a result, nobody used that one anymore. Sad thing, because I practiced that crouch cancel so much in my life.
The second example is his famous df+2. You remember that in previous installments, df+2 didn't launch vertically. It would launch diagonally. To convert it, you would have to do a very strict-timed dash in order to pick up the opponent with "freight train combo" (df+1, 4, 1) in order to keep the juggling going. You could also, of course, do a df+2, 1 and that would leave you in a better situation to claim a combo but with less damage. Another thing I practiced like crazy to do.
In short, with exceptions like the follow-up on CH b1+2 > f3+4, he was made easier to use overall.
My conclusion: I wouldn't mind the changes if that meant people would pick him up more, but that didn't happen at all. He was still one of the least picked characters online. So, he got dumbed down all for nothing.
I can tell you, some characters were already in this silent process way before T8. At least Ganny for me!
I’ve been subscribed to you since T8 dropped. You’re one of my favorite creators. I can’t wait for you to get your flowers and shift to full time content creation!!!
I'm glad Jin is simplified because I think he should be easy to pick up; takes time to master type of character. And as you've already said Kazuya exists for the harder to pick up poster boy.
Kazuya is also easy. ff2 alone is the biggest simplifier of his gameplay imo. Also his df1 strings are annoying.
I never even realized Marshall Law was considered difficult lol, I actually thought he was OP and is still my favorite character to play with!
BoogardMG Correction at 7:31. Marchall Law was replaced by his son (Forest Law) in Tekken 3, not Tekken 2.
He said "the two where he was replaced by his son", meaning that Forrest replaced Marshall in two games, not that he replaced him in Tekken 2.
@@keeyon012 Oh, I see. My bad.
all tekken 7 characters who were difficult to master came with a high rewards, Jin, Akuma Geese Etc.
tekken 8 : welcome to button mashing contest.
As someone who has played and mained Jin since Tekken 3, I don't mind the changes to the character, I just think it's a matter of keeping those tools as potentially complex as they were before. I don't mind Jin being simpler, so long as I still have to think about my options the way I used to. I think that's what's important to me. Some things got axed for no good reason imo, like Zen cancelling, I'm not gonna say i'm good at it, i'm not, but it's nice to have. Why get rid of that when a casual probably wouldn't even bother with the mechanic. Same with the old Law dss. So I agree with you, the changes are fine, but they shouldn't be broken even if I benefit off him being insanely strong. The philosophy of the character design should be the same, Jin should be using all the tools available to him because that's the essence of the character, so those tools shouldn't all be god buttons. That's just my personal opinion.
ima keep it real dragunov is by no means easier to play compared to previous installments , however he is easier to win with due to his insane amount of insane moves added in this game and ways for him to enter sneak. Playing him though is mechanically harder than 7 like i played 1300 hours of drag in T7 and the only thing u need to learn is sneak cancelling everything else has always been very easy for him it was simply put "hard to win" cause there was no lows which is why he has a full throw game. But yeah i 100% agree with jin and most of the mishimas for that matter. Free electrics in heat , df 2 on jin giving free electrics and stance mix ups albeit u can beat it with a simple df1 but yeah.
When dragunov gets nerfed like he did in 7 he will be way harder in this game
With Law it's a bummer that it's hard to tell the difference between a high level Law and a scrub. However he still needs timing on his CH dss confirms like ch ws4 into dss f1 or the even harder ch ss3 into dss f1 which many people don't talk about. He STILL has execution because you can't mash these confirms
The thing i mained jin for was the parry, parry is everything to me, i mastered that shit hard in 6, i have so many strings from almost every character memorized just so i can parry them, but in 8 its so unreliable and annoying,
at first i thought it was a skill issue but turns out its been made slower and has so many caviats, i dont even mind the shorter window, thats totally fine.
But i hate that they simplified my guy so much without letting me keep the thing i love the most.
"The protagonist are always ez"
Akira from Virtua Fighter is another hard cover art hero
I keep saying this. I used to love fighting Jin because, even though he was still difficult to face, I always knew how to beat him and had a really good win streak against him... with Eddy... yeah... Now in Tekken 8, I dread fighting any Jin player and I never want to see him ever again. The dude got all his weaknesses removed and he is just destruction personified. He feels extremely cheap😢
I guess you forgot to mention or didn't realize that Law's execution is still incentivized in this game. Doing the old execution on his DSS moves gives you additional damage (as indicated by some blue sparks). So, yeah, they still honor your ability to do the old execution by giving you additional damage. This applies to King and a bunch of other characters as well.
Good thing about law, I still doing back forward for dragon stance and it works as it was before in takken 7, mostly happy about new moves that he has now, like junkyard mid option 😊 and nunchaku or insta glide options
Us legacy players sure got shafted with T8 simplification. Not just because of the feeling to lose something special you trained for hundreds of hours ( or more) but also losing satisfaction in the game overall.
As DVJ main I enjoyed the fundamental battles vs Kazuya, Heihachi, Jin and Bryan a lot in T7.
But that is basically all gone. Neutral between these characters is almost unrecognizable. Kazuya especially lost the most respect.
He didnt lose his strong df2 CH ( panic tool) but only gained demon paw ( the best version) and the new mid from CD. Heat gives him the most brainded "parry"/powercrush to ever exist in the game.
He also got new df1 extensions.
While it was a super enjoyable skill matchup in T7, it is really sad how pathetic average Kazuya gameplay looks like now.
Bryan stayed the most like his T7 self with his new high +5 on block beeing the only big exception. Still very cool matches.
Except DVJ is now a worse fundamental version of his T7 self. Worse pokes ( worst df1 in the game) , lack of CH launchers, worse Hellsweep, no wall splat from the high laser canon option etc. He has moved towards becoming a gimmick character where as in T7 he was pure fundamentals. So he became much less satisfying.
Heihachi lol, dont get me started.
Reina is doing her own thing, hybrid mishima but still very fun because she is the fastest Mishima ever in terms of how many buttons you get to press.
I understand your point. But: why should strong tools and esp. moves be locked behind an executional barrier so that only veterans can pull them off? Why is it bad to give all players the same tools and see how they implement them into their strategy, see who plays better tekken? For the same reason street fighter intruduced shortcuts to special inputs. And i do of course not deny that dragunov is too strong - the chars need better balancing.
I played T7 6 and tag 2, and perhaps I'm 1 of the few that enjoy these simplified chars, easy-to-play vibe in T8 make me enjoy the game more when you can do all those crazy stuffs more fluently now. Hard or easy, we still enjoy the game, don't need to complain about it.
It's true that games are more fun when no one stuck in your ears tell it suck xD.
Grinding law just to hit tht high execution law combos was so much satisfying , its the reason i loved playing law. But all this satisfaction is now gone because of law baby mode
As somebody new to tekken but familiar with fighting games. I always felt like execution in old Tekken games were hard but in an unintuitive way. It felt more inconsistent than difficult
It is important to adjust the tracking in Dragunov's b+4 strings, b+4,3 cannot be walked by even Lili or Alisa and he has a lot of reward from just doing the move.
Law is my secondary in Tekken 8, and I never even considered playing him in Tekken 7. But if you ask top Law players, they probably appreciate him more now. The execution barrier before was just absurd. He was the only character with an overly complicated input just to enter a stance. I don't see how simplifying that kills the depth of his gameplay-he still has just frames and for the slide from the stance, no high-level player would ever use that move in neutral anyway.
What made me pick up Jin in t7 was how difficult some of his tools were. His hook fist being made easier really turned me off to him and that was super disappointing. I really like how technical he felt. It gave me something to work for when I labbed combos.
About to learn Jin. Thanks for the tips.
What I find to be weird is that people say that every character in t7 was almost generic to each other but I went to practice and learned EVERY character but in t8 I dont have a single drop of desire to learn any other beside my main.
I know I'm gonna piss off a whole lot of people but, the Jin rework is one of the BEST in fighting games imo. There are tons of reasons why including the ones you mentioned as well as story related reasons (I love that his fighting style now includes both Mishima and Kazama style moves as well as stuff from his Devil form cuz the man is finally accepting who he is), however i do agree on him being a bit overtuned (still not as much as the other top tiers imo), like his d2 being -14 ob is insane. If it wasn't for Jin i prolly would have not stuck with the game as much as I did and I also love how despite his execution requirements have been lowered he still has a learing curve and rewards good execution if you have it (you still can do wavedash shenenigans and doing consecutive electrics is still faster than doing it from zen). Give it some time and I feel like this character can truly become one of the most beloved in the community (if they tone him down a bit).
5:57 Kyo enjoyers in shambles
This actually was sad for me as I remembered my older brother maining jin as we grew up playing tekken and all his technicals and now he’s this steamroller.
tbh i miss t7 jin, that rewarding feelings when successfully pick up that f4 ch combo
As a zoomer in the tekken franchise, even I, a law main, hated that they made his DSS easier to do in tekken 8. It's not as fun to do anymore and it gives all previous law players a bad rep.
EWGF going to be just qcf 2 and Bryans taunt just one button in Tekken 9
in regards to drag, i started with tekken 8, learned drag. i went back to learn tekken 7, and i can still see results against decent players in that game even with the very weak drag in that game. his basic gameplan is the same, but yeah his combos are easier so he has much better damage but thats the main difference in his gameplay
you said jin´s d2 is -14 on block. but on 6:04 he is getting launched. or is jins while standing a 14f launcher? sorry i don´t know jin at all
Yes lol jim can launch -14,makes mirror matches interesting because you cant just throw d2 and only eat a 30 damage punish for it
I think to a certain extent it's inevitable, though it's kinda sad to see Bandai go the same route as SNK and finally make the box art protag a simple to pick up character, since "oddly hard, technical, high skill floor, protag" gave both Tekken and KoF a distinct flavor.
Jin is the most blatant example of bastardizing a character in the worst way possible
My problem with Jin's rework is that they completely removed a lot of tech that made him fun to play and lab out.
Why did they take zen cancels? What about hellsweep setups? He had some cool resets during his staple launcher.
They brought back Omen stance but its nothing more than a gimmick here.
They lowered the skill floor which is perfectly OK, but lowered the skill cieling too. Why?
I laughed at the part where you named every protagonist in other fighting games … except mortal kombat 😂
Certain changes were unnecessary with Xiaoyu like them getting rid of all her tilde moves (changing her launcher df+2~1 to b+1+2, her forward flip 4~3 to 3+4, her AOP sweep AOP 4~3 to AOP 3+4). It actually took away some of the fun with doing those inputs. They did make her hyp a much harder input to deal with eliminating b+1+2 with db+1+2. Before it was easy to side step and go into hyp, now it's easier to misinput, also they got rid of the instant block from it, to it is a bit more difficult to use. It seems the devs tried to simplify her, but the changes didn't really do anything.
3:34 "Before you needed to you know hit the move in order for it to connect"
Ya I would think so too...... 😂
I agree with his remarks about law please desimplify law give us back our execution thank you.
2:50 that jin outfit is so baddas, i would buy it if wad available in t8
I view Jin as a let-down because he was reduced from what could be described as a Specialist/Mishima hybrid with an incredibly cool, no-frills Karate fighting style. Now the respectably brick gameplay is reduced to newcomer friendly (I agree that isnt a bad thing necessarily, although he is absolutely over-tuned atm) and his iconically grounded fighting style has stepped away from Karate and into anime protag flips and frills, which to me is the biggest let-down by far of T8 Jin.
Law's DSS was always hype to see and was required to do well with him. He has always had a high power ceiling but that power was locked behind the skill ceiling. The power is still there - if not more so - but the skill requirements are astronomically lower.
Dragunov is a weird one. He was always a very aggressive character so he was always going to benefit from the T8 system changes. The only complaints I have about him are the fact they gave him a hatchet kick and better tracking. He has a powerful throw game (which counterhit in T8) and INSANE pressure. He should have subpar tracking options and bad lows outside of his almost iconic d2 poke. Patching those holes in his offence is what made him so oppressive.
I have gripes with T8's design philosophy in that they remove weaknesses from characters, not that the characters themselves are changing necessarily. Flaws are as important to character identity as strengths and to see them reduced kinda sucks. Even my boy Kaz is guilty of this with how oppressive ff2 is in neutral, allowing him to apply pressure in the neutral like never before, filling the hole in his neutral that is sidestep vulnerability (since ff2 is his only safe-on-block relatively fast mid attack with tracking - although b4 is real good in T8 tbf)
This might not be important but as a Jack main, I love trolling people with Gigaton Punch (even though the success rate of hitting my opponent is 1-2% lol). In the oldest Tekken games, it's the hardest thing to do because the left stick is not functional and the D-pad is too stiff to get this move right. But in later games, the left stick was pretty handy but still kinda hard sometimes especially when I accidentally did not start at 9 o'clock and spin properly. Now in Tekken 8...this is still possible BUT you could simply just hold 1+4 (which can be assigned to a shoulder button for even more easiness). It kinda takes away the hardship of this move BUT they kept the other move control. So I guess it's best in both worlds. Even though competitively this might be a dumb thing by simplifying a hard move but at least it makes someone like me who love troll people with that move use the stick when I prefer a challenge. I guess it's hard to do this with every character by having more than one button combination for the same move sets.
I absolutely hated what they did to Jin cause I liked that he was one of the most difficult chars while also not being one of the traditional mishima's. His electrics and hellsweeps were different, and he had a little more tools that you needed to learn in certain situations. In T8 I played him a little, but switched to Kazuya pretty quickly now I dont even like him in the game, and he used to be my main
There is one thing simplifying Jin there is another thing him being that simple and S tier
dragunov sneak cancel combos are very simplified in this game as well. In T7 the wall carry combo with forward 3 sneak cancel 1 or sneak cancel 4 4 had a good bit of execution to it, now drags combos are super streamlined and simple. as well as heavily damaging. Drag lost a lot of his identity in this game, despite getting one of the best visual upgrades I've ever seen. His gameplan is so simple that I kind of got bored of playing him, as it feels like you kind of approach every character with kind of the same plan. he's the sum total of 4 broken moves, sneak 4, back 3,1,2, back 4,4 and hatchet kick. with just these tools he can run an effective offense at a pretty high level (I'm blue ranks so not terribly high)
good work love to see you thriving
You mentioned it in the video but there's no need for the character complexity simplification, casuals never did the hard shit so they won't notice and veterans will be pissed off they are getting a watered down version of their character.
Casuals are appeased by cool/novel shit outside of fighting each other; tekken ball, story mode, interesting avatar lobby system etc.
Eh even as a Law main I think it's the easy slide cancel from DSS that mattered the most for easy execution. Even for just intermediate players there shouldn't be an issue hitting DSS for ender or to float from 4,3. It's the WS4 loops that got way easier granted while it was more impressive to pressure previous it's not like you needed perfect inputs unless your opponent was the kind to test you by mashing out a Jab to see if you were too slow in your execution.
The thing that made him much easier now is that Nunchuk serves as basically the best Oki he's ever had even post nerf. Like even in a mirror match against another Law while we could try to impress each other with combos I'd rather just go for masku setups and see if they know how to stand up.
I disagree Law, needed his simplification of DSS, it is the best decision made by the devs, almost every other character in Tekken 7 required holding a certain input to switch to their stance. Where law required total of 3 different input for DSS from variety of different moves. Tekken 8 just simplifies this and now you can switch to DSS by holding a certain input like every other character in the game.
Eddy Gordo was simplified so much that my friend who was an eddy main can’t play him anymore.
Jin is impossible to side step.
Eddy was always easy
@@Invader.Xim. at low ranks, yes. And now he’s even easier it’s brain dead like Victor
@@parrisxsummers yes he is the easiest character to learn in this game, but he was also debatably the easiest to learn in 7 as well
@@Invader.Xim. I can’t learn him, he’s weird to me
i always had respect for law players who mastered dss or jin players who mastered zen cancel stuff. but oh well
Kazama style is way more difficult and requires a lot of brain to make it effective.
I have no problem with them simplifying inputs. Tekken is a mental game . Wrangling with your controller to express what’s in your mind shouldn’t be a thing .
But dumbing down game plans and making perfect moves with little to no counter play is wack.
This is why i like Tekken more than street fighter. You don’t need to do motions inputs 90% of the time and there isn’t some jank 6 button system which is the biggest problem for me.
mental clarity and dexterity are both parts of the entire thing. Wrangling your brush is how you get a painting out. twisting your racket is you spin a tennis ball. "Im a genius in my head i just have trouble actually doing anything" is not a valid excuse for not performing well in an activity. Its the same criticism of hero shooters. why aim when you can use an AOE ability because "FPS is a positioning and awareness game, wrangling your controller to actually hit the shot shouldnt be a thing" is just as easy a cope
As a person that likes execution and finds it cool, I have a problem with simplification of inputs.
you lack the IQ to handle mental stack and execution.
a billion games are designed for people like you. we wanted tekken to remain outside of this area.
Jin = Main Hero. Always need to be simplefied for a big audience. New comers have no problem to play him now. Compared Bryan or Kazuya he is hard to read, because he is a "new" character with his new move sets.
He is now more "evasiv" compared to T7.
Dragonov is the designers "golden child". Even after the heavy nerfs he is still OP. He the complete package.
Counter, universal parry, low parry, faint grabbing, unbreakable trows, high damage, high plus frames, strong 50:50 and very good wall carry. He eptomize the T8 phiolosphy of attack and rewards.
Joshi and Alisa: Are just jokes character. Easily in Top 3.
Joshi's "Flash" is maby the best boss move in this game.
I don't like when people say that Law is brain dead now, most players are not sweats or competitive players, having access to the other half of his kit is just nice.
I think it's important to note that Jin is a pseudo Mishima.
I'm sure Reina and DJ are simple mishimas
Jins d2 is actually launchable against raven because he have a 14 wr launch
When you say Law has cheese, you are referring to what exactly? I have been playing Law since TT1 almost, couple of things
1-3 Bar law myth in TK7, when the connection is bad, you notice that it is a two-way road, right? so for especially a character with high execution like Law whose even bread and butter combos needs perfect DSS, a delayed crappy net means dropping combos and less damage when Law’s combo damage was below the average in TK7 to begin with. So, what is the 3Bar thing that you just repeat like other streamers? Like if his dragon tail (Which realistically if you use, you are dead unless you are at 3rd dan rank playin(lol) ) becomes invisible, Kazuya hell sweep, Brian's snake edge, or Lili's low sweep would has a different property that makes them seeable??? Which of his move becomes better that the other party cannot use?
2- Junkyard, is cheese? The string is around since TS3 (just like his dragon storm and basically one of his issue is he is too much predictable because he never gets many new moves) and if you get hit by it without low parry the second hit you are either lucky, or the other side is a very bad player; have you seen any player in tournament use this unless they have a death wish? Have you seen other characters launching combos? Brian many combos that can counter launch you with one single addition of punch with a million damage for example? Your definition of cheese is based on a total newcomer to the game.
3- DSS puts law in a very good frame, OK, but what you don’t say probably because you don’t play him like many other streamers is his options for follow up are at best a 12-frame high punch, and nothing is guaranteed, so, the biggest thing law gets is that you need to respect him after certain strings be finished (If you can’t side step or even jab him out of many of his options); fairly is he very unique in this? Is he? You want to talk about Heichachy’s guard break or Steve gaud break, or plus frames to start the arguments? You want to bring Riena’s chain combos? Should I keep going? So, what is this myth that Law out of a while-standing 4 gets 17+ on hit? OK, if that is super duper good, and now that has been as easy as holding forward, why don’t you see Law players dominating the ranks? The answer is because law does not get 17+ on natural, he is in DSS and does not best options, not to mention it is not consistent, even in TK8 let alone TK7. Don’t by my word go and listen to a top law player like RIP talking about law DSS not being consistent in TK8.
4- Final word that closes the argument: go check online win-ratio based on characters in a finished Tekken like TK7. Low is at the very bottom, (I am not exaggerating, go and check) and even in Tekken 8 go and check, he is now below the average, so how this amount of cheese is not working, is the cheese bad? Or maybe he is out-cheesed by many, many, many other characters. If you don't like a character, that is fine, I hate Bryan, or Lilie or Riana or even Heichachy (I main Law, Kazuya and Leo) but don't make judgments based on that.