Respect for an in-depth analysis in a charged environment. Personally, I'm having a ton of fun in Tekken 8 and think it has gone in a very healthy direction for the series. Where it goes too far with 50/50s, we can push for it to be toned down. Improving sidestepping certainly doesn't strike me as a bad idea. But rewarding proactivity to change an overly defensive game is generally a good thing for the health and vibrancy of a game, and making more aggressive options become more likely to lead to rewards was the right creative decision in my view.
I wholeheartedly agree, though i have to say that Tekken 8’s problem doesn’t really seem to be that offense is more rewarding than defense, but rather that the reward that offense brings comes with very little risk. There is no incentive to not mash your weird gimmicks or constantly throw a mix-up.
@@Android_Andy Is that really true? I feel like each defensive option's reward increases with risk. The least risky being stand guarding rewards you with either block punish damage on non safe moves, or your turn back on neg on block moves. The risk in this game is there are moves that punish stand guard either with plus on block, or chip damage, pressuring you to pick a more risky defensive option. Armor moves and keep out/jab out can reward you with counter hits, damage, or just stealing back your turn, but they also have risks of either not being safe, or duckable/ backdashable, etc. You have parries which counter pressure, but they can be whiff punished if mistimed. Movement, the strongest defensive option, rewards you with launchers, but obviously if you're moving you aren't blocking and can get hit if you choose the wrong option at the wrong time. The risk to offense has always been defensive counterplay, but you have to actively choose the right option. It can't just be block and move around until it's my turn. The game moved from "Can you hit me?" which was based off spacing and movement, to "I know what you're gonna do next." Which is based on reads. Risk assessment. Pattern recognition and timing and string knowledge. It's a way more frustrating game, because defense is no longer passive. You have to actively partake in being defensive.
Every Tekken game is about choosing options you think are likely to work out best for you based on reads, but it's really interesting to compare the different option spreads: * Any Rock / Paper / Scissors feels good (e.g. attack / sidestep / realign) because you win 1/3 of the time, lose 1/3, and tie 1/3, so 2/3 of the time you feel a'ight * Backing out to range 4 is like forcing the tie: Never feels bad, but it's not exciting either, so it's relatively boring * But 50/50s are the opposite: You only feel really good 1/4 of the time (blocking the low) and it feels bad 1/2 of the time Tekken 8, then, is an improvement in interactivity over 7, but could probably tone down the 50/50s (especially heat)?
People act like Tekken 7 was real Tekken because they never played any of the older games. Did they forget T7 added Rage arts and Rage drives? 2D characters? Made low parrying and counterhits super strong so nobody contested engagements?
I don't act like T7 is real tekken. I act like T7 is the best Tekken. Because it just is. Counterhits, low parries, wake-up options, and Rage mechanics were all great improvements/additions of the game. I'll agree that the game would have been even better without 2D characters, and stronger sidesteps, but overall it is easily not only the best Tekken game ever, but the greatest Fighting Game ever.
@@Walamonga1313 rage drives was a genuinely good mechanic, they were unique but not as strong as heat mechanics, low parrying and ch was strong but you can still play aggressively, I remember a match by jdcr and nobi in 2019 where jdcr played Armor king, where they made a ton of interactions so it's not really about that you cant play offensive it's just that some people preferred not to
No when Tekken 9 releases nothing will have changed and Tekken 8 will still suck but in comparison it might seem better than 9, because the series is getting progressively worse.
believe it or not it's possible to have a fighting game sequel that is largely praised and seen as better than the previous entry by the majority of the community.
@@legosuperbricks9861we will continue to have ppl like you constantly have doom and gloom negative comments about every new release trying to convince ppl that the new game is ass.
Yall complaining about the balancing. I just want Tekken 6/Tekken Tag 2 customization and Tekken force and team battle back. Give me my single player content HARADA!!!
TTT2 is still my favourite Tekken, was it balanced? Hell naw, but being able to play on the same team as my mate and make wacky combos is some of the most fun I've ever had in Tekken
-There's no better 3D game out there -Online just good enough for people to play against each other consistently compared to past titles -The game being on PC for the first time really spiked up interest and ownership of the game -The scene that surrounds the game rather than the game itself most of the time (SF5 flop on release, FGC drought, hype tournaments back to back with impeccable stories coming out of the game; Qudans returning, Lil Majin run, Panda winning, Arslan comeuppance... and so). It's not really the game itself, but rather what goes behind the scenes. The game is just a catalyst. That is the reason people see it with rose tinted glasses.
Leroy lasted like a month before he was nerfed to the ground, Kuni was never that big of a problem and Akuma was a problem if you were a Tekken God already.
I think the biggest thing I took away from this video is that tekken 8 and older tekkens want you to make defensive decisions more frequently. In tekken 7 you were rewarded for choosing to disengage and not make a decision lest you get deleted by your opponent reading you. But in tekken 8 since backdashes are nerfed and ch’s are less crazy you are forced to constantly make offensive and defensive decisions. Defense is still rewarded, you are simply rewarded for making correct decisions as opposed to being rewarded for avoiding the risk of making a bad decision.
if it were true for t8, there wouldn't be so many moves with so much tracking that also skip neutral ( demon paws ) there wouldn't be random bs like expulsion ( which is a lot more evasive than other round stealing moves ), guns, 5 feet swords, every character wouldn't have a stance, I can go on. The problem with t8 is too many things have changed at the same time and it makes the game scrubby, look at ranks now, slowly and surely ranks mean less and less the skill you have and more the amount of bs your character can put out. Just watch sajam slam competitors they reached so high in ranks but when you see them play, it is mostly flowcharting your strongest moves.
@@grvtt0brother have you even played Tekken 8 recently? Like… since launch? Victor is total ass now, expulsion got nerfed into the dirt and is risky as hell even when in heat. Not to mention that demon paw is not a neutral skip? It got a range nerf in the first balance patch for Tekken 8, and only Kazuya has a truly scary demon paw, which is the least of your worries when fighting Kazuya be fr. Jin’s is okay but so are all of his options, his ff4 is far FAR scarier than his demon paw, and ff4 actually feels impossible to sidestep. Devil Jin’s is so bad that doing anything with it that is impossible, I don’t even refer to it as a demon paw cause it has zero range compared to both Jin’s and Kazuya’s Heihachi’s is prettt good though, I’ll give you that, but he also has ff2 which is a launcher that can lead to insane wall carry and damage, only issue is ff2 is unsafe on block in this game, but that’s very character specific
That's because you, and probablyy everyone else complaining like you, tried playing like everyone else, while various top ranked players online and offline won through aggression.
@@zazombiezmasher0116hei's ff2 has a big pushback so not everyone can punish it. However it is EXTREMELY linear like most of his moves, very steppable and risky
PhiDX just wanna say I appreciate the grounded positivity you bring to the community. T8 ain’t perfect ofc, but some people are almost getting off on hating it, I feel.
I always felt like Tekken 8 was the response of Tekken 7, just two polar opposites of their core philosophies. That's why Tekken 8 is more Polarizing rather than universally hated.
I believe they came right out and said so. It's no secret that people felt T7 was played overly defensively, and was a lot of the time boring to watch. That's why T8 has so much flash using the heat system and heavily rewards offense/engagement.
@@Shade84I think Tekken fans keep forgetting that every Tekken since 3 has different philosophy, T4 was environment stuff, T5 made most hard stuff easier and neutral the core point, T6 was experimental with characters and combos, T7 was full defensive and T8 is full aggression. I wonder what will they do with Tekken 9, maybe they'll try to find the perfect balance 🤔
@@abra2133that's why I laugh when people say one Tekken or the other is "real" Tekken as if they aren't and evolution to the things the Devs thought were bad in the previous.
@@KyeCreates not really. The initial backdash nerf and walled stages in T4 was to kill how defensive TTT1 was due to a powerful backdash and infinite stages. If you look at the series broadly since T3 they've been trying to work around movement being too strong for ages.
Nah, Tekken Alpha was also garbage. Real Tekken was the concepts the devs were coming up with inside their brains long before they actually developed any game or assets at all.
Real Tekken is also trying to finish arcade mode on Tekken 1 only using deathfist disclaimer: no warrants for rage inducing CPU law fights are included
I think the big problem with the discourse surrounding T7 vs T8 is that we’re comparing a game in its final form after 2 years of testing in arcades in T7 to a new game with a brand new mechanic in T8 that’s not even done with its first season. I’m not satisfied with how slow, or at times how negligent, the devs have been to deal with character balancing or heat related bugs and overly powerful heat mechanics, but my theory is that they’ve allowed the game’s current meta to play out as it is so they can analyse community opinions and pro players’ interactions with heat, before commiting to a huge heat rework that’s likely coming in the season 2 patch. I also think that’s why they’re waiting to adjust the heat mechanic before making sweeping changes to the character meta and vastly changing the properties of moves, in case the changes they make aren’t compatible with the changes they make to heat or any other new game mechanics they add or remove. TL;DR stop comparing a game with 8 years of balancing and tweaks to a game in its first year with a brand new game mechanic, and huff some of this Season 2 copium with me
The only copium in your comment was you framing it like 8 years of balancing in T7 was it getting better overtime lol, T7 was getting worse and worse the more they introduced newer balance patches and characters lol. Remember how they try to remove the busted Akuma wall setup just to remove all character's wall setup, and Akuma was the only one left with broken wall setup. And how they introduced insanely OP Leroy, Lidia, and Fark. Then can't nerf the OP character properly without gutting them from S-tier into unusable F-tier states, they just gave DVJ the same S-Tier to F-Tier treatment in both late-T7 recently in T8 lol.
You're the type to pick akuma only spam fireballs,trips and helicopter kicks. Shutup. Chip damage is stupid,heat is stupid,rewarding button mashers is stupid,only a few characters have good side stepping,heavy use of meta characters,and non stop spamming of evo combos. It's so obvious most players are doing what they have seen online. There are no innovative plays. Only dragonov running attack. Kazuya 3 hit launcher. Its boring and people rightfully hate it.
omg no string realign would be so goood imagine no more jin round start 2,1,4 you can actually counterplay i think tracking and non tracking moves being more defined helps a lot being left without tracking options feels bad and getting caught by random moves tracking also feels bad that and having better backdashes can be really helpful and make the game more engaging
Excellent video - i have said for YEARS. “Tekken 7 is the most consistently inconsistent tekken game to date” For the reasons you mentioned above T6 Tag 2 > Better tekken games imo T7 was just the better "E Sport"
T8's been out for less than a year and people have already forgotten sentiments on T7 near the end of its life cycle: it relied too much on keep out, was boring to watch, and it was time for a change. Complaints about T8's mechanics and predatory monetization are valid, but let's not bullshit ourselves saying 7 was way better. Reminds me of MK fans wanting to go back to MK11, even though they called it trash right up until MK1 released. Hell, reminds me of call of duty and pokemon players too. Some people just like to bitch and gas up the past, which gets in the way of discussions on how to actually improve the game for the future.
I get the impression everyone's making a final push to have Tekken 8 adjusted for season 2, though I assume the devs already have a plan. I will agree, though, I've been tired of hearing the constant comparison between T7 and T8. The games were made intentionally different.
I agree and the only people that hate T8 are professionals and some streamers lol… everyone else loves it . I love it . I like it more everyday , even the customizations are cool and it’s more interesting to watch too.. the healing factors and heat make it so unpredictable of whose going to win but the game obviously takes skill still.. Arslyn ash won EVO again this year . People just have to let go of Tekken 7 or just go back and play it . But Tekken 7 will never be better than Tekken 8 in my opinion lol
the only reason Tekken 7 became good is because of the guest characters, if without Akuma, Geese or Noctis, the game will end up the same fate with TTT2. Ono helped Harada on this one that;s why Namco survived in T7
Tekken fans are toxic. Ive played since 5 and ive had the most fun with 8. I wasnt a fan of the tekken 7 back dash jab, back dash low kick, poke poke poke play style. It still had broken characters after a decade of release and patches akuma, marduk, geece etc. People forgot death combos were a thing in tekken 7? Tekken 8 is far more engaging and encourages you to counter hit and get your grey health back. Just far more engaging than the typcial poke poke poke poke poke style until someone messes up.
@@legosuperbricks9861tekken 7 was so unbalanced.. the akuma hate, the leroy hate, the fahkumran hate, the geese hate, if you dont pick these characters you lose and u have to pay for them.. its practically pay to win game
And it's the same people who yell everytime that is the same game, but always saying they want a game like 5. And ngl, Tekken 5 is a masterpiece, but it's annoying how many times I encounter someone who says 6 was the decline of Tekken, and they played like 1 hour of it. PD: Sorry for My English
I've been loving your tournament analysis videos. Will you be covering the Korean Tournament 4th qualifier that recently happened? Eyemusician was SCARY that whole run
The way he actually HAS TO do hardcore disclaimers because a significant chunk of the community has auch a hate boner for the game right now, that they call everyone who does not literally shit on t8 a shill. Its insane
actually the vast majority of people just don't care about those losers. They enjoy the game while the few crybabies cry. It's only the crybabies that cry to these people, hence why they're the only ones getting answered. Just enjoy the game, it's the most fun tekken right now. Numbers speak more than crybabies
@@TheLifeLaVita No the majority left because they are bullied in ranked or are playing SF or other games. The game is much more tilt inducing than T7, with characters than have little to no counter and can steamroll you with infinite 50/50, it's just frustrating. People crusaded against fckng noctis and look what we have now, People are right to be upset 100 times over. If there a feeling of a problem, the people do not know what it is, it might even be misplaced but it's the designers job to stop the root and address it. (if you knew matchups well you could survive in T7, T8 is a constant guessing game and it's frustrating, objectively, T7 had it's problems but was MUCH more fair) People survived akuma, leroy and other stuff, because the game other than those examples was generally fun/fair, and it felt novel. Each character was so very well done (design-wise, except leroy), original characters were hyped, and we had even new mechanics and moves introduced mid-way It's also to note than patches were responsive, so if something broken was to be discovered, generally the team reacted with haste (see the HUNDREDS of nerfs to leroy coming in large packs), while here they are not. If the game is enjoyed by some for a while, they eventually get depressed about it because it feels completely dead by the developers part. No patches, no effort to resolve stuff, they are just releasing characters that feels very T8 and do not do anything unique (unlike T7 who each had it's own design) (i'm looking forward every patch to see balance, but they fckng hype this patch FOR MONTHS to make up for the bad patches on the way, !IN THEIR WORDS!, and then when it finally releases there is nothing? i'm not a downer, i don't talk bad about the game with anyone but some things they are doing are OBJECTIVELY worse than T7, and that brings morale down). (again, i look forward to see every patch, i hope they can get this back with, i think negative people aren't hard to please, even if they bit-ch and moan every game about X and Y character, we never had this kind of period usually).
@@BeAsTMoDE528 the number of crybabies, especially people like you that got mad at me for some reason, is considerably lower. Numbers still matter, you just don't know which numbers to look at. Regarded.
I understand now thanks to your video. When I watched that clip on mute, the amount of poke into back dashing to full screen was very noticeable but I didn't realise how little interaction was happening.
Honestly, while i look at 7 with a little rose tint, i think objectively 8 has the potential to be a way better game then 7 ever could hope to have been, and i hope the team gets the support from not only the publisher, but as well community figures like you Phi to help them make Tekken 8 the best game it can be. I still havent quite found my footing or a main in 8, and i miss parts of 7 so much, but i cant deny that i do not miss so much of the issues that plagued 7 from launch; bad netcode, bad movement (both the actual movement and the fact that everyone and their mother had a safe on block fast homing mid CH launcher for some reason), the 0 commitment BS (like magic 4)... I wanted to thank you, PhiDX, for helping me to better understand how to adapt to Tekken 8s style of gameplay, and for keeping a positive attitude as I feel you have. Its genuinely helped me to better tempery own view of the game, and have more fun in it then i could have imagined given my feelings at launch.
It's just like in real world politics, if people are not happy with the present, they just long for an romanticized glorious past that never happened. Awesome vid Phi!
@@Datdaniel90 Amazing stages, sound effects and music, instant loading time, small combos, a ton of character intros and winposes. How i wish for a modern T5DR with new characters such as Lidia, Azu and Leroy.
Yeah I think 8 is closer to T5 but to say T7 is real and 8 is fake is a wild statement when 7 discouraged sidesteps and anything unique for movement.(hyperbole)
T8 doesn’t even have to be exactly like T6/TT2. But if they tune T8 to be more like those games it will have its own unique T8 + T6/TT2 hybrid playstyle which would be an incredible fighting game to play.
I did not really care about this conversation enough to try to figure out what I thought about it myself, but I was interested in the gameplay differences and this did a great job illuminating those
To be honest the first time i noticed sidestep was so much worse in t7, i was already bummed and having to play with a combo system less complex than bound (i loved the "is gonna hit the wall first or should i bound early than hit the wall? can i use floor and wall break to gain even more damage?" aspect of t6) made me instantly dislike t7 from the get go. Having rage arts didn't help. Because of it i wasn't hyped for t8, than i played beta, did sidestep predicting a jab from my friend next to me (we both were on training mode), and not only it worked against his straight mid, it lead into a launch, combo and than my friend goes "oh the heat shit is bound on combo" and i simply fell in love. Yeah t8 is ultra levels of agressive and constantly playing close, but having a better corckscrew alongside bound, heat dash being a more fun version of rage drive for me, and having crazy sidesteps like t6 (previously my fav tekken), just makes the game feel awesome to me. Yeah i'm down for a refinement of these systems and the agression getting toned down some way, but you'll never convince me t8 is worse or less tekken than 7, it's not.
I noticed nostalgia somehow made people ignore or forget the absolute TORTURE we went through in T7 I swear if ya'll get rescued from being taken hostage or sm ya'll say: "it was so much better back when we had the terrorists fr fr🙏"
Really well put together video that pinpoints exactly what was missing in T7 and how Namco have overcompensated in T8. The direction they moved in by removing Dragunov b4,3 tracking gives me hope that Namco does understand this and will hopefully bring the changes in season 2. I believe removing tracking from some of the re aligning strings and slightly buffing the backdash would put the gameplay in a healthy and exciting spot, now just have to hope this comes true ❤
@PhiDX I've watched about 10 mins in and there are two major problems with the footage Speedkicks used to argue his and your point: 1. They are selected for to prove his points. I would bet hard that there are a little less, an equal amount or way more clips of Tekken 7 that counter his arguments/thoughts than support them. But he did not look for those and probably just looked for the most obvious ones to back up his side/exaggerate the degree of issue more than it was. Which might have been dime a dozen. But credit where it's due, these particular comparisons in the video wasn't as egregious/obvious as the one he did around April which had me facepalm. 2. There are other footage of Tekken 7 that can be selected for where the games of pros is a lot more contested with many more decisive interactions per round. Which lead to my second point that the comparison used by speedkicks was improper because up till Tekken 8, the diversity of playstyles was immensely significant due to characters not being all rush down like they are now. Different characters influenced the flow of combat way more back then so it doesn't make sense or is fair to compare the T6 armor king vs bryan who are both poke and counterhit fishing characters to a T7 Dragonuv vs Feng match, where dragonuv in T7 isnt the most optimal character to tie down evasive playstyles with feng being one of the most evasive tin cans you can fight. The lack of interactions and decisive hitting are very much due to that fact. I would say if the comparison featured "T7 armor king vs bryan" it would look a lot more similar to that T6 video of armor king vs bryan. It might be even more aggressive. at the very least, it would be more accurate to find a set and compare T6 Dragonuv vs Feng to T7 Dragonuv vs Feng. But that might not be possible to find ofc. The fact remains that speedkicks is wack for thinking this proves his point. It made no sense tbh.
Speedkicks didn't find the first he's replying to a guy calling that clip as peak gameplay of Tekken 7. Also I don't know how anyone whose played the older games could think the movement nerf in T7 (along with the slight backdash block buff) didn't nerf offensr significantly compared to past titles.
yes what the guy before me said is true. this clip was used in a tweet saying "the people want REAL Tekken", so this clip was used in support of Tekken 7 and bash of Tekken 8. Speedkicks directly quoted it and made his response. So your initial point has no merit as he didn't cherry pick the clip to bash Tekken 7, ironically the clip was used to bash Tekken 8. I would also say it's also widely accepted that this is how Tekken 7 gameplay looked in general.
@@Meiloorun ..... Actually the guy who replied first misunderstood due to his poor reading skills. Maybe my post structure wasn't 100% clear but I never said speedkicks posted the first clip. Where did I say that? What I said is the point he's attempting to make, using the comparison videos to contrast the Tekken 7 clip don't make sense. As it's improper. And let's say even if he did actually post the first clip, my point still stands. He's been very critical of Tekken 7 and has been shitting on it since Tekken 8 came out. I wouldnt have as much issue but he does it in an unfair way as far as I'm concerned. Y'all need to read better.
@@guyoncouch8796 I never said he posted the first clip and that wasn't even the point. Must be nice to completely ignore valid arguments of contention. Instead of grappling with it, you generate a sock puppet false point in your delusion to strawman attack. It would be better if you just trolled me at that point.
@@Tain_edReaper you said he didn't go out of his way to go look for clips that go against his points, when the onus was not on him to do that His objective was to show how the clip that was posted to make Tekken 7 look like real Tekken as opposed to T8, was actually, by using footage from previous Tekken, not like the Tekken that was prevalent in those games. It wouldn't have made sense for him to go looking for other Tekken 7 clips when his main point of focus was the clip that was posted. Ironically, I don't think you read my response properly either. You said he "just looked for the most obvious ones [clips] to back up his side", when all I was saying that that this clip was in fact being used to back up the other side. All he did was disprove how that clip was showing "real Tekken" and used footage of previous Tekken games to do so. You need to read better.
Just want to say man, youve been doing gods work for both old heads and new comers alike. Tekken 7 was my first Tekken that i decided to take serious and by that i mean learn what frames were, play ranked, lab, practice and play almost literally daily. Before that, the last tekken i had was tekken 6 back in 2007 when i was like 12 or 13 just pressing buttons with friends. I truly loved Tekken 7 but i could see its clear glaring faults, i also really enjoy tekken 8 now but i keep finding myself getting burnt out. I really appreciate this in depth look at the old tekkens, it really helps give perspective on the current systems and also helps alleviate the stress of tekken 8 that ive been feeling.
There are people defending SF5 now that SF6 is here... People sh*t on a game until the next installment comes out, then they say it was the best game ever and sh*t on the new one 🤣
I don't really get why you people somehow try to make Tekken7 look bad just because someone tried to call out the broken heat mechanics and crazy 50/50 of Tekken 8 ? Tekken 8 forcing you to engage is not bad but it's the heat mechanics+crazy 50/50 after that what makes Tekken 8 not really a great game.
Because people are trying to rewrite history on 7 when 7 was extremely different from previous games and was heavily criticized. Like at least compare 8 to 5 or 6 not 7 which nerfed so much classic Tekken ****
@boredomkiller99 "Heavily criticised" by who ? That game you criticised was the most successful Tekken in all of the franchise, it brought Tekken back to life.
I think if they buffed backdashes again and nerfed the tracking and phantom range on skip neutral tools like demon paws, it would be a huge step in the right direction because there would be more neutral mindgames and movement
Balancing is not the issue. It’s the system itself that needs changing. Like the aggression. No amount of needing will fix this game unless they tackle the root problem
@@UserDoesNotExist570 I completely agree. Chip damage is one of the most egregious reasons to the system. Imagine being penalized for defense. Why bother blocking because my chainsaws on block do even more damage than jabs on hit.
The phantom range of demon paws, yes, i agree with that. I dont agree with backdashes buff.. its already tiring to play against ppl running away all the time just to force a whif or to spam keep out tools, i think that is the most toxic gameplay. Its not like u cant backdash situations in this game. Buffing backdash reduces the interaction because it would be much more rewarding to backdash anything than to actually commit to an atack or another defensive option (like sidesteps, powercrush or evasive moves) and i think it would turn the game into another tekken 7 where ppl only plays like Phidx show in this video.
Especially Claudio his demon paw reaches further than devil jins heat smash and is fast asf he's character that doesn't get talked about enough as far as needing balancing imo.
i’m new to the tekken scene with tekken 8 and these analysis style videos are incredible in seeing how different the older games were and how we got here. keep up the great work
preciate you for stayin down in the trenches n keepin the conversation goin in ur comments section Phi, shows you really give a dam bout the discussion and the state of the games
Right, all Tekkens had different playstyles and metas developing due to the core mechanics of the game, the beauty came from it developing organically from the players using the tools provided. T8 will likely evolve over time but it feels like the 'optimal' playstyle is being forced on the player due to the overwhelming power of aggression, imo not good game design
exactly, older games nudged you towards a certain playstyle but never was it this forced to the point that it doesn't even feel safe doing string mixups.
Tekken players are a bunch of whiners. Many of them not even slightly above the average but they act like understanding everything just because they watched tmm analysis videos. This is the one and only truth.
love the in depth analysis! tekken 8 is the first fighting game i've dive into! wasn't into any fighting game before this, and the exposure to older tekken clips are amazing vid along with the analysis.
As someone who started with Tekken 8, its interesting how interactive the game is at close range, while also a surreal experience of waiting for someone to backdash to throw out a fireball. Great video! It put everything in very easy to understand terms, and I got to learn about possibly my new favorite fighting game.
I am sick of people complaining about Tekken7 just because someone brought up how unbalanced Tekken8 is. Seriously, why you guys played that game for 7-8 years if it was that bad ? Lol
This is probably the most thorough dissection of what Tekken "is" and why Tekken 7 was an aberration in the series from T5 onward (so I'm told). Thanks for putting this together. The clip of Dragunov's string being made more linear gives me mixed feelings. It's nice for strings to be made more linear so that always-available defensive options are actually always available (even if my filthy anime player brain despises people escaping mixups). On the other hand, Dragunov's kick looks like it should hit someone who is trying sidestep to his left - and with literally thousands of moves and strings in the game, I know there must be moves that are designed like this. But Dragunov's won't work the same way, because "it was too OP and got patched." I would be very interested to see you tackle the visual clarity problems Tekken has and how it could address them. There was an extremely high-effort Reddit post earlier this year which described how Leo in particular has four or five sets of moves that look identical but have different properties, frame data, and hitboxes.
And that's valid. But as 2D game player, I don't understand why Tekken players... don't just play the game they prefer. We don't have to play the new shiny version of a game.
@@valeoncat13Right?! I love this comment. I prefer T7 AND T5 over T8. I haven't bought T8 and don't plan to. It's crazy to look at the mexican KoF community not letting go of '98 vanilla and the brazilian community not letting go of 2002 vanilla as well. Also, that Third Strike tournament was the most hype shit from EVO this year.
@@Lethalassassin27 load times and no cross-play are real bummers outside of gameplay preference. Graphics can be easily ignored, and netcode is not as dogshit as some people say it is.
I can't and your a disingenuous idiot if you think that tekken 7 is in any way better than 8 when it's so piss easy to mash into combos that eat up 85% of health and all it takes is another mash to win. Tekken 7 literally plays like a beta to this day the balance is absolute garbage and they made guest dlc characters broken for clout which isnt something tekken 8 does and if that's your idea of fun then youre what's wrong with the tekken community
The thing I really liked about Tekken 7, that is entirely missing from my experience of Tekken 8, is that it felt like we were "In Neutral" very often. The game was relatively focused on small Tekken. There were a lot of moments where it felt like nobody was "In Control" - and it felt like I was always ALLOWED TO DO STUFF. If I got launched, you combo me, and at the end (unless you gave up combo damage for jump-over oki or something) we went back into neutral. My top 3 moves on every character were Jab, df1, generic d4. Small tools that were generically good, but had small reward. In Tekken 8, when I get hit by your plus on block mid with good tracking, I'm -17 and I have to hold literally any mix you want to apply. You can do a plus on block mid, do a WR move, do a hellsweep, grab. I can't sidestep or block, I can't armor or Rage art, Yoshi can't even flash. Those all die if I press any button, you're just too plus. My only option is stand block or crouch block. I am not allowed to DO STUFF. That's the most extreme example, but even at +5 oB its so oppressive. There's less small tekken, its entirely focused around BIG moves. Armor heat engagers and plus on block mids that do chip. df1's and generic d4's are depreciated, now you only use lows that are like +4 on hit. The problem with the AGGRESSION model is that only one player gets to be AGGRESSIVE at a time. If you're the one being AGGRESSIVE, I have to hold whatever mix you decide. If I guess wrong, you get to continue being AGGRESSIVE. If you launch me, at the end of your combo, you get to continue being AGGRESSIVE when I stand up. But then, as soon as I block your move and I get a 10 frame punish, suddenly your turn is over and I am now fully AGGRESSIVE. I never feel like I am "In Neutral" in T8 after the first engagement, because that would require somebody to take their foot of the gas pedal when they are in the drivers seat.
Well put. It feels like in Tekken8 you are forced to overextend even if you don't want to because as soon as you don't, your opponent will, and you will be suffocated for the next 20 seconds. That's why magic 4 style moves were so strong in 7. If your opponent overextended with a big move, you could catch them with a magic 4 ch and remind them that they need to respect you. Now they respect it and you're more often than not in neutral because you're also aware that he can pull that out. Magic 4 could be annoying at times because sometimes that's all some people would do and I won't neglect that, but they had a purpose. You could argue that that's also Power Crushes' purpose but you rarely have the frames to pull one out. And then you look at some character's power crushes being Safe High Fast Heat Engager Power Crush with pushback on block (that's a mouthful) while your character might have a Slow mid -14 with 0 pushback on block and you'd rather go back to blocking and trying to guess and trying to step strings that track after the first hit whiffs. Oh and I almost forgot, all this while you're eating 5 to 15 chip damage which is, in my opinion, the dumbest decision they ever made when they added all the suffocating gameplay.
Extremely good video. And I appreciate that your focusing on more that T7 is not as good as we thought, and it’s not a defense of T8 but showing what it does now vs then.
Man for real. I knew It was all changing when they said kings B1 counter hit has to be hit confirmed. Moving away from that basically for everyone. For the best. Not everyone should be a counter hit monster. We have Bryan and Steve for that
@@Boom_OH heres the thing, in t7 they still were counter hit monsters compared to the other characters. now they are homogenized to the point everyone has wall carry, and a demon paw. Lei for example didnt even compare to steve in the CH department unless you were mashing on strings or something.
My personal takeaway is that it's easier to appreciate an older game because nothing is really at stake. Like Tekken 5-tag 2's balancing is way worse than today's tekken. But people say now that they're great because it doesn't really matter.
I’m ngl I’m so sick and tired of people always shitting on t7 like it wasn’t the game that saved tekken from getting the soul calibur treatment. It was a flawed but fun game that rejuvenated tekken in many peoples eyes and had some of the greatest sets in the fgc
It’s like how people treat SF4 now, where it’s apparently one of the bad ones despite reviving the franchise and carrying a huge swath of the FGC on its back for years
@@patch3324 Top 8 reasons why T8 is BETTER than T7 1) Better loading times - T7 load times are absurd - T8 its a non issue 2) T7 looks UGLY - the game was dated even when it released in 2017 on console 3) T7 terrible story mode - narrator - no need to elaborate there 4) Worst Character endings probably since tekken 1 5) Lack of game modes 6) Mediocre stage music - and unfinished stages - infinite azure the clouds dont even move - snow stage no footprints - T6 snow stage on ps3/xbox had FOOTPRINTS 7) BROKEN characters -Akuma Geese No explanation needed - DLC pay to win characters - Kuni, leroy 8) T7 is the most consistently INCONSISTENT tekken game hitboxes and sidesteps to date T7 was the better E sport but it was NOT a better tekken game over T6 TAG2 and no not even T8 with all of its problems
I really appreciate this kind of deeper analysis trying to understand the pros, cons and reasons instead of the usual yapping most people resort to online when there is something they don't like
All three of the suggestions Speed made should be implemented in Season 2, in one way or another. • For Point 1, the visual clarity of every string in the game should be re-evaluated. If it looks like it should track, then make it track. If it doesn't - like, if the attacker is spinning around, the strike comes from a specific angle, or if the attacker is attacking with their back to you - that string should either only track in one direction or not track at all. Moreover, if the frames allow for defensive movement in between string inputs, then the defender should be able to step & the success of the stepping should depend on the string's properties. 2. Heat, as it's designed, is a pure reward for pressing buttons. It simply does too many things for the attacker: changes properties of moves, provides massive frame advantages, gives chip damage, and health recovery. I think that either these aspects need to be greatly nerfed - preferably chip damage, I don't think it should be in the game at all - or Heat needs to be a once per set feature that needs to be similar to Rage Drive in that if you use it, you don't get access to Rage. 3. Backdashing should definitely be adjusted. I think they should buff the distance on the first backdash made from neutral, while keeping current distances for consecutive backdashes. Or maybe they could even do something like just frame backdashes for players with strong execution to give them extra distance.
Tekken 7 was almost the most perfect Tekken we got and possibly the closer one to perfection we'll ever get. Tekken 8 had to fix only a few things to improve on it: -No 2d characters (in fact I'd love if we don't have ANY guest characters at all.) -Less counter hit launchers -Less wall carry for many characters. Keep it specific to a few, like Lee. -Improved side steps. movement. That's all. A perfect Tekken game. But no, instead we got all the heat bullshit and moves that were there for 30 years have been removed for no reason.
I loved T7 and played it more than any other Tekken. Tekken 8 isn't for me personally. I might give it another chance if they add my main but I doubt it will happen
I honestly wish they would fix the strings so we were back at DR. Right now sidestepping a string just to get clipped by the last hit while trying to wiffpunish is so frustrating and it makes sidestepping feel very risky. We also have characters (toptiers) that have safe mid, mid strings that are in the range of -3 on block (looking at you drag) where the second hit also behaves like a homing move. Honestly if they make sidestepping strings viable i think the game will feel better and we as players feel like the right read gets rewarded instead of "well shit, that move just went 180 on me". I honestly think tekken 8 is hella more fun than 7 but it just needs some tweeks to become fantastic and less frustrating to play.
Less interactions means that stakes are higher, thats what made tekken 7 so cool to me compared to other games like street fighter 5 where there is a lot more exhanges between 2 opponents
honestly bro i enjoy the game a ton so im glad someone i look up to also feels this way. i genuinely hate how much dooming some of the tekken community does. i feel like although the game is still too overtuned towards staying in the red zone it is slowly moving towards that direction of tag 2 and 6. the change to alisa and drag feels so good and little by little i actually feel confident moving into the red zone knowing i still have options. amazing video!
Tekken vet here played since tekken 3. Tekken 7 is my favorite tekken, I pushed to emperor in that game. Pushed to tekken god in 8. I quit tekken 8 completely out of frustration for the systems. Not everybody hated or was tired of the defensive playstyle of 7. I really enjoyed it. You can sit there and say “well just adjust” yeah ive tried. Plenty of times and id say i have adjusted, but i simply just do not enjoy the aggression in tekken 8. I agree that some people are saying “real tekken” which think is wrong because tekken 8 is still the 8th tekken game lol. But yeah I just straight up dont enjoy the aggression at all so i will not be playing tekken 8.
honestly man every valid criticism of tekken 8's gameplay loop is met with another unrelated argument. rn its that tekken 7 was garbage the whole time i guess?? like it changes anything abt how tekken 8 plays
@@kamren3542because people keep pointing to 7 being the Tekken standard despite 7 being extremely not Tekken. Like at least compare 8 to 5 or 6 not the black sheep that is 7 that started the move from classic Tekken including nerfing movement
Tekken 8 is just a more shallow imo. I could play t7 for 6 hours and not even realize it. I’ll play t8 for an hour and hop off cuz it’s just too simple and boring. T7 was a good game but it had a ton of problems. Char just seemed like they had more identity. Not everyone had wall carry and not everyone had a demon paw. Just my opinion
I think the biggest gripe I have with t8 is actually how much the camera and gameplay zooms in and slows down. Like I think it destroys the flow of these sequences in a really bad way and it's a very ham fisted attempt to give new players extra time to think that I don't think works too well. It's cool for like, an hour, and then it starts to grate on you. I'd like to see string tracking removed too, since that just makes sense in my brain, but tbh the heat/rage art time stop is far bigger an issue to me.
I think the string tracking change would be interesting, but I also feel like some of the strings should track. It would make sense in some cases that the character would turn a little bit seeing his opponent stepped to the side in some cases. It would feel weird if no tracking happened at all. I'm sure there is a balance to be found.
The desperation to pretend T8 isn’t mostly hot trash is insanity. Tekken 7 was mostly good with a few bad moments and a lot of great ones. Tekken 8 is literally the strive of the franchise at this point. Changed the game way too much and now an embarrassing and loud new audience (most of who know nothing about prior Tekken) are proclaiming that older Tekken wasn’t that good. Just stop. T8 is a joke compared to 7.
Nah Tekken 7 was crap way too slow and rewarded running too Game was casual AF Useless sidesteps Homing on all hellsweep style moves by the end season Low parry did a million damage. Throws made even easier to break Can't catch rolls to rejuggle or follow up, generally much easier to get off ground Execution requirements dropped for many things
9:10 lmao I was not ready for that. Once you hit paste and I saw ALL OF THAT TEXT, i said to myself "Oh no he didn't" but you just went ahead and said, "Yes I did"
That T7 JDCR-Knee fight was called "The Best Tekken Set in History" at some point on youtube, i think it's Rev Major 2017 So the OP Speedkicks cited that said "This is real Tekken" is a big of a stretch, that was pretty much lightning in a bottle gameplay
Impressive analytics - Great matches, I can see the difference but I don't think they fully represent the Tekken 7 situation. It is great to have different combat flows though in the Tekken franchise. Very proud of the win over Knee lol, gj.
I'm glad someone finally put it into better words than I could. I've always felt that Tekken 7, and now Tekken 8, played optimally at higher levels reminds me of a jousting competition. The knights back up, run at each other with their best buttons into heat stuff, repeat until someone dies. I've gotten used to it, and I'm not gonna pretend that older games didn't have their unique issues, with my favorite Tag 2's egregious damage as an example, but it's just kind of... annoying? I guess is the best word I can think of.
Also, T7 Legendary Knee v JDCR match was S1 of Tekken 7.1, after they've had YEARS to cook in arcade. And arcade was disgustingly imbalanced then. People compare
Incredibly insightful video. For me, I am perfectly happy w' Tekken 8's style of play. I have noticed that my gameplay is a LOT better than my Tekken 7 gameplay and I spent nearly 650h in 7 with a max. rank of Vanquisher. In 8 at 281h, I have two characters at Garyu, both Mishimas, with massively high win rates so I can likely push for Ruler ranks. I put this down to 2 things: 1.) I have grown as a player and gotten better. 2.) Tekken 8's style of play, both offensively and defensively, suits me a lot more. I find myself stepping more in 8 and being rewarded handsomely for it. The over-reliance on an insane kbd in 7 held me back and I was not a fan of it. At all. I never felt like I was interacting with the opposite player, whereas in 8 I feel like it is such an interactive game with the different options we have available to us. Thanks for the always-awesome content my dude. EDIT: Just to add something - you are a good player, dang it! Your level of knowledge and gameplay is epic and your ability to portray that across the entirety of Tekken's skill base is rare. Don't be so hard on yourself!
What i don't like is how tekken 8 does away with any other playstyle that isn't rushdown aggression. Thats incredibly reductive. Player expression be damned. Being punished for being defensive is not what many want tekken to be.
I genuinely like how the neutral works in this game. The neutral triangle is balanced again as opposed to tekken 7 where statistically you would win by abusing keep outs and crazy backdashes. And when I first tested tekken 8 during the beta I popped off really hard when I sidestepped Jin's electric for the first time and when I played . However, this game doesn't feel fun when you get launched and your back is against the wall while your opponent has heat activated and you just have to hold it while your lifebar is getting chipped away. These issues are very clear but we are still in the first year of Tekken 8, and I know tekken games tend to change drastically from the arcade version to the console version. ( or in this case the debut of tekken 8 ) This is why I won't give up and I actually wanna go pro in this game. Also it's kind of funny to see the contrast between the online community ( reddit, youtube, tweeter, etc ... ) and my local community. I live in Madagascar where the cost of the game and internet is way too much so people only play in like playrooms offline, and since the consoles we are playing on aren't ours, we don't care about the battlepasses and Tekken shop thing. We are just here for the gameplay. And our community is as big as ever right now with a 96+ local tournament every month and we even got a challenger event. There will be a tournament on Saturday and Harada and Nakatsu will actually attend that tournament to see my local community. I find it really weird how tekken is very controversial everywhere else while in our country it's the best it has ever been.
Tekken 7 definitely had its problems but I just enjoyed the pace of the gameplay more in general, idk why everybody on Twitter feels like they need to dunk on everyone else’s opinion and prove it’s the wrong opinion or something lol. I probably would’ve liked DR the most if I knew about the competitive aspect of the game when I was like 14.
Thank you. That's the problem we T7 lovers have with T8. Never said T7 was perfect. But I want to die knowing what happened and how to improve it round 2. T8 plays too fast to download your opp. Most matches end in 12 or less seconds. T8 pros also die to the same setups low levels do even after labbing because of speed and you are usually (-) on block because of some stance transition that also masks 2 unblockable highs (U-Grab or G-Break) a launching Mid and a knockdown low to followup for 45-60 damage for blocking, all happening in 2 seconds? If T7 was 1x speed T8 is 4-5x speed that's the problem for me imo.
@@Kenkyou_Nogata My question is, if you like Tekken 7 that much and don't like 8, why don't you play that instead? The game is still available. Before getting an interest in Tekken, I was playing Blazblue, and that's what the Blazblue community did. Most stayed with the old game instead of moving on to the crazy tag version of the game with insane sandwich 4 way mixups with shit flying across the screen every quarter of a second. So instead of talking negative about Tekken 8 and raining on other peoples' parade, why not just boot up Tekken 7 and play that? Wouldn't you have more fun? Isn't it exhausting to complain like this?
@jeanschyso I already do that but I've already paid for T8 using the last of what I saved up for my "Guilt free high spend" budget for one game for the year. Other people also have their own reasons besides my own and your own too. Not all of us have the same motivations. I still play Tekken 8 because I love certain things while I hate other things. Also have to polish my skills and habits for when the game finally reaches an acceptable balance. T7 and T8 feel way different that a week away can actually cause sizable disadvantages. Works for everything else in life. I love my wife but we have problems I complain about. Doesn't mean I don't love her and should get another wife. Perhaps the problems are not that big but they are there. People who complain hoping for change love the game but the problems are glaring and hard to ignore. It's an abusive relationship but a relationship nonetheless.
Note how I never said T8 is bad. Only I stated where I find critical areas. I love the game but one should never be so loyal that they can never find criticism in the subject. T8 lets me down because I could be enjoying this game so much but I cannot and already invested in it.
@Perry_Talion it's a matter of taste for a lot of people so people will always disagree. But at least your comment is cival and not like every reactionary doomer online. People are too charged and love to bandwagon or complain at some arbitrary 'oversimplification/appealing to casuals'. It's just that civil discussion in fgc when comparing games is practically unheard of. I enjoyed T7 but had way more problems overall imo, people tried to play it like Street Fighter with all the backdashes and pokes. It was also just 'counterhit launcher the game' imo, you fish for the ch. Also the meta characters were way more aggregious compared to T8. That being said the aggressiveness in T8 is more to my tastes but I think everyone agrees the balancing at launch was a mess. Again everyone seems to glaze over that the game also hasn't been out 1 year nor had any arcade iterations to balance things. The monetization stuff is another topic but I think it's a bit overblown. I'd rather it not be there but it's pretty easy to just ignore it and just play the game. Most times it's a publisher decision and the Devs unfortunately don't have much say. The battle pass is pretty much free at this point and people act like there's a gun to there head when talking about mtx in any game.
To me, real Tekken will always be 5 (and 3, but that's my nostalgia talking). Say what you want about t8 being braindead, but t8 is getting us closer to t5 glory days than what t7 gave us. Being less than a year into t8 cycle, the potential is exciting to me. We're a handful of tweaks shy of hitting a middle ground that'll having everyone loving this game for the next 5-8 years. The outcries from Twitter are 80% Salt. Change is uncomfortable, but another decade of t7 is pain enough to kill this game
Respect for an in-depth analysis in a charged environment. Personally, I'm having a ton of fun in Tekken 8 and think it has gone in a very healthy direction for the series. Where it goes too far with 50/50s, we can push for it to be toned down. Improving sidestepping certainly doesn't strike me as a bad idea. But rewarding proactivity to change an overly defensive game is generally a good thing for the health and vibrancy of a game, and making more aggressive options become more likely to lead to rewards was the right creative decision in my view.
I wholeheartedly agree, though i have to say that Tekken 8’s problem doesn’t really seem to be that offense is more rewarding than defense, but rather that the reward that offense brings comes with very little risk. There is no incentive to not mash your weird gimmicks or constantly throw a mix-up.
💯‼️
I love that the aggressive options are amazing in this game, but I would love the defensive options to be almost as good.
@@Android_Andy Is that really true? I feel like each defensive option's reward increases with risk. The least risky being stand guarding rewards you with either block punish damage on non safe moves, or your turn back on neg on block moves. The risk in this game is there are moves that punish stand guard either with plus on block, or chip damage, pressuring you to pick a more risky defensive option. Armor moves and keep out/jab out can reward you with counter hits, damage, or just stealing back your turn, but they also have risks of either not being safe, or duckable/ backdashable, etc. You have parries which counter pressure, but they can be whiff punished if mistimed. Movement, the strongest defensive option, rewards you with launchers, but obviously if you're moving you aren't blocking and can get hit if you choose the wrong option at the wrong time. The risk to offense has always been defensive counterplay, but you have to actively choose the right option. It can't just be block and move around until it's my turn. The game moved from "Can you hit me?" which was based off spacing and movement, to "I know what you're gonna do next." Which is based on reads. Risk assessment. Pattern recognition and timing and string knowledge. It's a way more frustrating game, because defense is no longer passive. You have to actively partake in being defensive.
Every Tekken game is about choosing options you think are likely to work out best for you based on reads, but it's really interesting to compare the different option spreads:
* Any Rock / Paper / Scissors feels good (e.g. attack / sidestep / realign) because you win 1/3 of the time, lose 1/3, and tie 1/3, so 2/3 of the time you feel a'ight
* Backing out to range 4 is like forcing the tie: Never feels bad, but it's not exciting either, so it's relatively boring
* But 50/50s are the opposite: You only feel really good 1/4 of the time (blocking the low) and it feels bad 1/2 of the time
Tekken 8, then, is an improvement in interactivity over 7, but could probably tone down the 50/50s (especially heat)?
I love T8 because all my bad habits from T7 are winning strategies now.
Underrated comment
my main in t7 was low tier, and now in t8 is high tier. meaning i hit just hit blue ranks in 3 days from beginner lol
@@parry3439 yoo sick dude lets go W
People act like Tekken 7 was real Tekken because they never played any of the older games. Did they forget T7 added Rage arts and Rage drives? 2D characters? Made low parrying and counterhits super strong so nobody contested engagements?
Also nerfed movement and catching people in their wake up options including no longer getting a re-juggle from catching back rools
Tekken 7 was worse than Tekken 6 & Tekken TAG 2, people just like to d!ck ride it cuz it was the first one to come to PC
I don't act like T7 is real tekken. I act like T7 is the best Tekken. Because it just is.
Counterhits, low parries, wake-up options, and Rage mechanics were all great improvements/additions of the game.
I'll agree that the game would have been even better without 2D characters, and stronger sidesteps, but overall it is easily not only the best Tekken game ever, but the greatest Fighting Game ever.
@@jb-mg2lg Delusional
@@Walamonga1313 rage drives was a genuinely good mechanic, they were unique but not as strong as heat mechanics, low parrying and ch was strong but you can still play aggressively, I remember a match by jdcr and nobi in 2019 where jdcr played Armor king, where they made a ton of interactions so it's not really about that you cant play offensive it's just that some people preferred not to
Tekken 8 will be real Tekken when Tekken 9 releases.
That's what I'm saying since the release of this game hates never gonna end people always find something to hate and complain about
No when Tekken 9 releases nothing will have changed and Tekken 8 will still suck but in comparison it might seem better than 9, because the series is getting progressively worse.
believe it or not it's possible to have a fighting game sequel that is largely praised and seen as better than the previous entry by the majority of the community.
@@legosuperbricks9861we will continue to have ppl like you constantly have doom and gloom negative comments about every new release trying to convince ppl that the new game is ass.
Facts
Tekken 8 is real tekken because it’s the only one i’ve played
same
real
He just like me fr
Same
Bro just like me fr
Real Tekken is when me and my cousins emulate Tekken 4 on a shitty laptop in my Grandma’s basement.
I just to do that on the school chromebook
Tekken 3 greatest hits on a dusty ps1
Real tho
The realist.
correct
Yall complaining about the balancing. I just want Tekken 6/Tekken Tag 2 customization and Tekken force and team battle back. Give me my single player content HARADA!!!
Wholeheartedly agree
TTT2 is still my favourite Tekken, was it balanced? Hell naw, but being able to play on the same team as my mate and make wacky combos is some of the most fun I've ever had in Tekken
i just want a gloves/arms option lol
Treasure Battle too. And more incentives to use fight money. and bowling
Big facts 💯
People lived through Leroy and Akuma AND Kuni for years in T7 but one year of Tekken 8 is too much???
-There's no better 3D game out there
-Online just good enough for people to play against each other consistently compared to past titles
-The game being on PC for the first time really spiked up interest and ownership of the game
-The scene that surrounds the game rather than the game itself most of the time (SF5 flop on release, FGC drought, hype tournaments back to back with impeccable stories coming out of the game; Qudans returning, Lil Majin run, Panda winning, Arslan comeuppance... and so).
It's not really the game itself, but rather what goes behind the scenes. The game is just a catalyst. That is the reason people see it with rose tinted glasses.
@@FahmiZFX facts
Everyone in T8 plays like akuma bro
dont forget fahk
Leroy lasted like a month before he was nerfed to the ground, Kuni was never that big of a problem and Akuma was a problem if you were a Tekken God already.
I think the biggest thing I took away from this video is that tekken 8 and older tekkens want you to make defensive decisions more frequently. In tekken 7 you were rewarded for choosing to disengage and not make a decision lest you get deleted by your opponent reading you. But in tekken 8 since backdashes are nerfed and ch’s are less crazy you are forced to constantly make offensive and defensive decisions. Defense is still rewarded, you are simply rewarded for making correct decisions as opposed to being rewarded for avoiding the risk of making a bad decision.
if it were true for t8, there wouldn't be so many moves with so much tracking that also skip neutral ( demon paws ) there wouldn't be random bs like expulsion ( which is a lot more evasive than other round stealing moves ), guns, 5 feet swords, every character wouldn't have a stance, I can go on. The problem with t8 is too many things have changed at the same time and it makes the game scrubby, look at ranks now, slowly and surely ranks mean less and less the skill you have and more the amount of bs your character can put out. Just watch sajam slam competitors they reached so high in ranks but when you see them play, it is mostly flowcharting your strongest moves.
@@grvtt0 expulsion is trash though outside of heat, victor has far far bigger bullshit than that
@@grvtt0brother have you even played Tekken 8 recently? Like… since launch? Victor is total ass now, expulsion got nerfed into the dirt and is risky as hell even when in heat.
Not to mention that demon paw is not a neutral skip? It got a range nerf in the first balance patch for Tekken 8, and only Kazuya has a truly scary demon paw, which is the least of your worries when fighting Kazuya be fr. Jin’s is okay but so are all of his options, his ff4 is far FAR scarier than his demon paw, and ff4 actually feels impossible to sidestep.
Devil Jin’s is so bad that doing anything with it that is impossible, I don’t even refer to it as a demon paw cause it has zero range compared to both Jin’s and Kazuya’s
Heihachi’s is prettt good though, I’ll give you that, but he also has ff2 which is a launcher that can lead to insane wall carry and damage, only issue is ff2 is unsafe on block in this game, but that’s very character specific
That's because you, and probablyy everyone else complaining like you, tried playing like everyone else, while various top ranked players online and offline won through aggression.
@@zazombiezmasher0116hei's ff2 has a big pushback so not everyone can punish it. However it is EXTREMELY linear like most of his moves, very steppable and risky
maybe the real tekken
are the friends we made along the way
Diplomatic comment. :D
I’m sure the comments will be completely civil and not biased in any way, shape or form :)
Shirley
I'll be honest, the only thing these old clips are doing for me is making me want Armor King in T8 even more.
I feel you there lol
I KNOWWW FRR
PhiDX just wanna say I appreciate the grounded positivity you bring to the community. T8 ain’t perfect ofc, but some people are almost getting off on hating it, I feel.
@@azuresaiyan9005 yea ur part of the problem then
Almost?😂 it'll never end and its for good reasons at that.
@@azuresaiyan9005 womp womp buddy
I always felt like Tekken 8 was the response of Tekken 7, just two polar opposites of their core philosophies. That's why Tekken 8 is more Polarizing rather than universally hated.
I believe they came right out and said so. It's no secret that people felt T7 was played overly defensively, and was a lot of the time boring to watch. That's why T8 has so much flash using the heat system and heavily rewards offense/engagement.
@@Shade84I think Tekken fans keep forgetting that every Tekken since 3 has different philosophy, T4 was environment stuff, T5 made most hard stuff easier and neutral the core point, T6 was experimental with characters and combos, T7 was full defensive and T8 is full aggression. I wonder what will they do with Tekken 9, maybe they'll try to find the perfect balance 🤔
@@abra2133that's why I laugh when people say one Tekken or the other is "real" Tekken as if they aren't and evolution to the things the Devs thought were bad in the previous.
@@Meiloorun But fighting states such as defense vs aggression is very different compared to combos and character archetypes and stage experiments.
@@KyeCreates not really. The initial backdash nerf and walled stages in T4 was to kill how defensive TTT1 was due to a powerful backdash and infinite stages.
If you look at the series broadly since T3 they've been trying to work around movement being too strong for ages.
Tekken has been garbage since the release of Tekken 1. Tekken alpha build was the last REAL Tekken, and anyone who says otherwise is a shill
Nah, Tekken Alpha was also garbage. Real Tekken was the concepts the devs were coming up with inside their brains long before they actually developed any game or assets at all.
@@inzanity490nah, L take. THE REAL TEKKEN was the dream harada had when he said "fighting game cool". Don't be sheep.
since tekken 3 it goes downhill thats why ppl say tekken 7 was real tekken it was just slightly better than 8 doesnt mean it was good
@@braindeadbrick553your name adds up
Real Tekken is trying to finish arcade mode on tekken 3 only using deathfist
You can actually cheese the AI by using d1, 2 with Paul over and over.
Real Tekken is also trying to finish arcade mode on Tekken 1 only using deathfist
disclaimer: no warrants for rage inducing CPU law fights are included
and only using it as a block punish
Harada approves
I think the big problem with the discourse surrounding T7 vs T8 is that we’re comparing a game in its final form after 2 years of testing in arcades in T7 to a new game with a brand new mechanic in T8 that’s not even done with its first season.
I’m not satisfied with how slow, or at times how negligent, the devs have been to deal with character balancing or heat related bugs and overly powerful heat mechanics, but my theory is that they’ve allowed the game’s current meta to play out as it is so they can analyse community opinions and pro players’ interactions with heat, before commiting to a huge heat rework that’s likely coming in the season 2 patch. I also think that’s why they’re waiting to adjust the heat mechanic before making sweeping changes to the character meta and vastly changing the properties of moves, in case the changes they make aren’t compatible with the changes they make to heat or any other new game mechanics they add or remove.
TL;DR stop comparing a game with 8 years of balancing and tweaks to a game in its first year with a brand new game mechanic, and huff some of this Season 2 copium with me
😂😂 That Season 2 copium hits different
@ I got 500 hours in on T8 but I can’t do another 500 if the game stays like this for another year 💀
Dude, tekken seven, even in the final version, was not balanced.
The only copium in your comment was you framing it like 8 years of balancing in T7 was it getting better overtime lol, T7 was getting worse and worse the more they introduced newer balance patches and characters lol.
Remember how they try to remove the busted Akuma wall setup just to remove all character's wall setup, and Akuma was the only one left with broken wall setup. And how they introduced insanely OP Leroy, Lidia, and Fark. Then can't nerf the OP character properly without gutting them from S-tier into unusable F-tier states, they just gave DVJ the same S-Tier to F-Tier treatment in both late-T7 recently in T8 lol.
You're admitting that T8 is a full price beta + DLCs + microtransactions, great.
I commend PhiDx for trying to fight back against all the doomers. These analytical takes are far more refreshing than "casino bad T8 sucks"
You're the type to pick akuma only spam fireballs,trips and helicopter kicks. Shutup. Chip damage is stupid,heat is stupid,rewarding button mashers is stupid,only a few characters have good side stepping,heavy use of meta characters,and non stop spamming of evo combos. It's so obvious most players are doing what they have seen online. There are no innovative plays. Only dragonov running attack. Kazuya 3 hit launcher. Its boring and people rightfully hate it.
omg no string realign would be so goood imagine no more jin round start 2,1,4
you can actually counterplay
i think tracking and non tracking moves being more defined helps a lot
being left without tracking options feels bad and getting caught by random moves tracking also feels bad
that and having better backdashes can be really helpful and make the game more engaging
Excellent video - i have said for YEARS.
“Tekken 7 is the most consistently inconsistent tekken game to date” For the reasons you mentioned above
T6 Tag 2 > Better tekken games imo
T7 was just the better "E Sport"
T8's been out for less than a year and people have already forgotten sentiments on T7 near the end of its life cycle: it relied too much on keep out, was boring to watch, and it was time for a change. Complaints about T8's mechanics and predatory monetization are valid, but let's not bullshit ourselves saying 7 was way better.
Reminds me of MK fans wanting to go back to MK11, even though they called it trash right up until MK1 released. Hell, reminds me of call of duty and pokemon players too. Some people just like to bitch and gas up the past, which gets in the way of discussions on how to actually improve the game for the future.
I get the impression everyone's making a final push to have Tekken 8 adjusted for season 2, though I assume the devs already have a plan.
I will agree, though, I've been tired of hearing the constant comparison between T7 and T8. The games were made intentionally different.
I agree and the only people that hate T8 are professionals and some streamers lol… everyone else loves it . I love it . I like it more everyday , even the customizations are cool and it’s more interesting to watch too.. the healing factors and heat make it so unpredictable of whose going to win but the game obviously takes skill still.. Arslyn ash won EVO again this year .
People just have to let go of Tekken 7 or just go back and play it . But Tekken 7 will never be better than Tekken 8 in my opinion lol
I agree.
the only reason Tekken 7 became good is because of the guest characters, if without Akuma, Geese or Noctis, the game will end up the same fate with TTT2. Ono helped Harada on this one that;s why Namco survived in T7
Tekken fans are toxic. Ive played since 5 and ive had the most fun with 8. I wasnt a fan of the tekken 7 back dash jab, back dash low kick, poke poke poke play style. It still had broken characters after a decade of release and patches akuma, marduk, geece etc. People forgot death combos were a thing in tekken 7? Tekken 8 is far more engaging and encourages you to counter hit and get your grey health back. Just far more engaging than the typcial poke poke poke poke poke style until someone messes up.
People have been complaining about Tekken 6, 7, Tag 2, Revolution and now 8. The people that complain are the most vocal ones. It never changes
none of those games received the amount of hate 8 is getting.
Yea I even feel like street fighter 6 is pretty loved by the community but I still see more hate than praise
@@legosuperbricks9861tekken 7 was so unbalanced.. the akuma hate, the leroy hate, the fahkumran hate, the geese hate, if you dont pick these characters you lose and u have to pay for them.. its practically pay to win game
And it's the same people who yell everytime that is the same game, but always saying they want a game like 5.
And ngl, Tekken 5 is a masterpiece, but it's annoying how many times I encounter someone who says 6 was the decline of Tekken, and they played like 1 hour of it.
PD: Sorry for My English
not just that, Im gonna complain about this comment too
the tekken 6 walkthrough is actually nuts man. YOU ARE A MACHINE>>>>>> Tekken community is lucky to have a phidx
Thank you for always sticking up for the community and making the effort for everyone to have a good time
T7 had its problems yet it’s still way more fun to play than t8 imo.
Facts
@ feel like I can just autopilot the whole time I play.
exactly thats all it is we going down hill since tekken 3 so naturally ppl miss previous release
@@Jabermania
*opinions.
@@TheXell noob
I've been loving your tournament analysis videos. Will you be covering the Korean Tournament 4th qualifier that recently happened? Eyemusician was SCARY that whole run
The way he actually HAS TO do hardcore disclaimers because a significant chunk of the community has auch a hate boner for the game right now, that they call everyone who does not literally shit on t8 a shill. Its insane
I’ve been called a shill for liking tekken 8, and I’m not a content creator 😂 people just love to hate
actually the vast majority of people just don't care about those losers. They enjoy the game while the few crybabies cry. It's only the crybabies that cry to these people, hence why they're the only ones getting answered. Just enjoy the game, it's the most fun tekken right now. Numbers speak more than crybabies
@@TheLifeLaVitanumbers really don’t speak to quality, that implies every new game is better than every old game. But keep being regarded!
@@TheLifeLaVita No the majority left because they are bullied in ranked or are playing SF or other games. The game is much more tilt inducing than T7, with characters than have little to no counter and can steamroll you with infinite 50/50, it's just frustrating.
People crusaded against fckng noctis and look what we have now, People are right to be upset 100 times over. If there a feeling of a problem, the people do not know what it is, it might even be misplaced but it's the designers job to stop the root and address it.
(if you knew matchups well you could survive in T7, T8 is a constant guessing game and it's frustrating, objectively, T7 had it's problems but was MUCH more fair)
People survived akuma, leroy and other stuff, because the game other than those examples was generally fun/fair, and it felt novel. Each character was so very well done (design-wise, except leroy), original characters were hyped, and we had even new mechanics and moves introduced mid-way
It's also to note than patches were responsive, so if something broken was to be discovered, generally the team reacted with haste (see the HUNDREDS of nerfs to leroy coming in large packs), while here they are not.
If the game is enjoyed by some for a while, they eventually get depressed about it because it feels completely dead by the developers part. No patches, no effort to resolve stuff, they are just releasing characters that feels very T8 and do not do anything unique (unlike T7 who each had it's own design)
(i'm looking forward every patch to see balance, but they fckng hype this patch FOR MONTHS to make up for the bad patches on the way, !IN THEIR WORDS!, and then when it finally releases there is nothing? i'm not a downer, i don't talk bad about the game with anyone but some things they are doing are OBJECTIVELY worse than T7, and that brings morale down).
(again, i look forward to see every patch, i hope they can get this back with, i think negative people aren't hard to please, even if they bit-ch and moan every game about X and Y character, we never had this kind of period usually).
@@BeAsTMoDE528 the number of crybabies, especially people like you that got mad at me for some reason, is considerably lower. Numbers still matter, you just don't know which numbers to look at. Regarded.
I understand now thanks to your video. When I watched that clip on mute, the amount of poke into back dashing to full screen was very noticeable but I didn't realise how little interaction was happening.
Honestly, while i look at 7 with a little rose tint, i think objectively 8 has the potential to be a way better game then 7 ever could hope to have been, and i hope the team gets the support from not only the publisher, but as well community figures like you Phi to help them make Tekken 8 the best game it can be. I still havent quite found my footing or a main in 8, and i miss parts of 7 so much, but i cant deny that i do not miss so much of the issues that plagued 7 from launch; bad netcode, bad movement (both the actual movement and the fact that everyone and their mother had a safe on block fast homing mid CH launcher for some reason), the 0 commitment BS (like magic 4)...
I wanted to thank you, PhiDX, for helping me to better understand how to adapt to Tekken 8s style of gameplay, and for keeping a positive attitude as I feel you have. Its genuinely helped me to better tempery own view of the game, and have more fun in it then i could have imagined given my feelings at launch.
It's just like in real world politics, if people are not happy with the present, they just long for an romanticized glorious past that never happened. Awesome vid Phi!
If people don't think tekken 8 is real Tekken... They also must think that tekken 7 is not real tekken... tekken 5 is the purest Tekken of them all
Loved Tekken 5 side step was 🔥
@@Datdaniel90 Amazing stages, sound effects and music, instant loading time, small combos, a ton of character intros and winposes. How i wish for a modern T5DR with new characters such as Lidia, Azu and Leroy.
This is true. Still Tag 2 is my favorite of them all.
Yeah I think 8 is closer to T5 but to say T7 is real and 8 is fake is a wild statement when 7 discouraged sidesteps and anything unique for movement.(hyperbole)
T5DR is pure and better (Steve doesn't have multiple viable ToDs)
T8 doesn’t even have to be exactly like T6/TT2. But if they tune T8 to be more like those games it will have its own unique T8 + T6/TT2 hybrid playstyle which would be an incredible fighting game to play.
T8 is T6/TT2
Now that would be a dream come true true
@@Jabermania I can't agreee with that one, t6 and tt2 still allowed defense and tech and setups.
@@KyeCreates yeah but they're not like TEKKEN 7
Holy shit what a banger of a video. Appreciate all the effort you put into this history lesson and analysis
My fave PhiDX video so far
I did not really care about this conversation enough to try to figure out what I thought about it myself, but I was interested in the gameplay differences and this did a great job illuminating those
To be honest the first time i noticed sidestep was so much worse in t7, i was already bummed and having to play with a combo system less complex than bound (i loved the "is gonna hit the wall first or should i bound early than hit the wall? can i use floor and wall break to gain even more damage?" aspect of t6) made me instantly dislike t7 from the get go. Having rage arts didn't help.
Because of it i wasn't hyped for t8, than i played beta, did sidestep predicting a jab from my friend next to me (we both were on training mode), and not only it worked against his straight mid, it lead into a launch, combo and than my friend goes "oh the heat shit is bound on combo" and i simply fell in love.
Yeah t8 is ultra levels of agressive and constantly playing close, but having a better corckscrew alongside bound, heat dash being a more fun version of rage drive for me, and having crazy sidesteps like t6 (previously my fav tekken), just makes the game feel awesome to me. Yeah i'm down for a refinement of these systems and the agression getting toned down some way, but you'll never convince me t8 is worse or less tekken than 7, it's not.
Great video, love how you break down every clip and show the level of complexity within them all.
I noticed nostalgia somehow made people ignore or forget the absolute TORTURE we went through in T7
I swear if ya'll get rescued from being taken hostage or sm ya'll say: "it was so much better back when we had the terrorists fr fr🙏"
some of these mfs never fought release leroy, akuma, kuni etc and it shows
T7's problems really wasn't on the public consciousness much because SF5 stunk and superseded just about any of the mistakes that T7 was making
@@sliippy2152release Leroy was literally torture to play against. Remember top 8 full of Leroy lol.
@@giteshdhirthose are individual characters being balanced poorly, i think when people complain about t8 they talking about the game as a whole
T7 didn't fall off until S3. Season 2 was great.
Really well put together video that pinpoints exactly what was missing in T7 and how Namco have overcompensated in T8.
The direction they moved in by removing Dragunov b4,3 tracking gives me hope that Namco does understand this and will hopefully bring the changes in season 2.
I believe removing tracking from some of the re aligning strings and slightly buffing the backdash would put the gameplay in a healthy and exciting spot, now just have to hope this comes true ❤
@PhiDX I've watched about 10 mins in and there are two major problems with the footage Speedkicks used to argue his and your point:
1. They are selected for to prove his points. I would bet hard that there are a little less, an equal amount or way more clips of Tekken 7 that counter his arguments/thoughts than support them. But he did not look for those and probably just looked for the most obvious ones to back up his side/exaggerate the degree of issue more than it was. Which might have been dime a dozen. But credit where it's due, these particular comparisons in the video wasn't as egregious/obvious as the one he did around April which had me facepalm.
2. There are other footage of Tekken 7 that can be selected for where the games of pros is a lot more contested with many more decisive interactions per round. Which lead to my second point that the comparison used by speedkicks was improper because up till Tekken 8, the diversity of playstyles was immensely significant due to characters not being all rush down like they are now. Different characters influenced the flow of combat way more back then so it doesn't make sense or is fair to compare the T6 armor king vs bryan who are both poke and counterhit fishing characters to a T7 Dragonuv vs Feng match, where dragonuv in T7 isnt the most optimal character to tie down evasive playstyles with feng being one of the most evasive tin cans you can fight. The lack of interactions and decisive hitting are very much due to that fact. I would say if the comparison featured "T7 armor king vs bryan" it would look a lot more similar to that T6 video of armor king vs bryan. It might be even more aggressive. at the very least, it would be more accurate to find a set and compare T6 Dragonuv vs Feng to T7 Dragonuv vs Feng. But that might not be possible to find ofc. The fact remains that speedkicks is wack for thinking this proves his point. It made no sense tbh.
Speedkicks didn't find the first he's replying to a guy calling that clip as peak gameplay of Tekken 7.
Also I don't know how anyone whose played the older games could think the movement nerf in T7 (along with the slight backdash block buff) didn't nerf offensr significantly compared to past titles.
yes what the guy before me said is true. this clip was used in a tweet saying "the people want REAL Tekken", so this clip was used in support of Tekken 7 and bash of Tekken 8. Speedkicks directly quoted it and made his response.
So your initial point has no merit as he didn't cherry pick the clip to bash Tekken 7, ironically the clip was used to bash Tekken 8. I would also say it's also widely accepted that this is how Tekken 7 gameplay looked in general.
@@Meiloorun ..... Actually the guy who replied first misunderstood due to his poor reading skills. Maybe my post structure wasn't 100% clear but I never said speedkicks posted the first clip. Where did I say that? What I said is the point he's attempting to make, using the comparison videos to contrast the Tekken 7 clip don't make sense. As it's improper. And let's say even if he did actually post the first clip, my point still stands. He's been very critical of Tekken 7 and has been shitting on it since Tekken 8 came out. I wouldnt have as much issue but he does it in an unfair way as far as I'm concerned. Y'all need to read better.
@@guyoncouch8796 I never said he posted the first clip and that wasn't even the point. Must be nice to completely ignore valid arguments of contention. Instead of grappling with it, you generate a sock puppet false point in your delusion to strawman attack. It would be better if you just trolled me at that point.
@@Tain_edReaper you said he didn't go out of his way to go look for clips that go against his points, when the onus was not on him to do that
His objective was to show how the clip that was posted to make Tekken 7 look like real Tekken as opposed to T8, was actually, by using footage from previous Tekken, not like the Tekken that was prevalent in those games. It wouldn't have made sense for him to go looking for other Tekken 7 clips when his main point of focus was the clip that was posted.
Ironically, I don't think you read my response properly either. You said he "just looked for the most obvious ones [clips] to back up his side", when all I was saying that that this clip was in fact being used to back up the other side. All he did was disprove how that clip was showing "real Tekken" and used footage of previous Tekken games to do so. You need to read better.
Bamco is getting worse and worse at making Tekken games
its not real tekken until they add tekken bowl to the fight lounge
Just want to say man, youve been doing gods work for both old heads and new comers alike. Tekken 7 was my first Tekken that i decided to take serious and by that i mean learn what frames were, play ranked, lab, practice and play almost literally daily. Before that, the last tekken i had was tekken 6 back in 2007 when i was like 12 or 13 just pressing buttons with friends. I truly loved Tekken 7 but i could see its clear glaring faults, i also really enjoy tekken 8 now but i keep finding myself getting burnt out. I really appreciate this in depth look at the old tekkens, it really helps give perspective on the current systems and also helps alleviate the stress of tekken 8 that ive been feeling.
There are people defending SF5 now that SF6 is here... People sh*t on a game until the next installment comes out, then they say it was the best game ever and sh*t on the new one 🤣
I don't really get why you people somehow try to make Tekken7 look bad just because someone tried to call out the broken heat mechanics and crazy 50/50 of Tekken 8 ?
Tekken 8 forcing you to engage is not bad but it's the heat mechanics+crazy 50/50 after that what makes Tekken 8 not really a great game.
Because people are trying to rewrite history on 7 when 7 was extremely different from previous games and was heavily criticized.
Like at least compare 8 to 5 or 6 not 7 which nerfed so much classic Tekken ****
@boredomkiller99 "Heavily criticised" by who ?
That game you criticised was the most successful Tekken in all of the franchise, it brought Tekken back to life.
@@Yaur6355 exactly, it quite literally got so many new fans interested and there was so much complexity and gameplay styles to explore.
I think if they buffed backdashes again and nerfed the tracking and phantom range on skip neutral tools like demon paws, it would be a huge step in the right direction because there would be more neutral mindgames and movement
Balancing is not the issue. It’s the system itself that needs changing. Like the aggression. No amount of needing will fix this game unless they tackle the root problem
Agree with you. Especially on the phantom hitbox and neutral/safe tools like demon paw.
@@UserDoesNotExist570 I completely agree. Chip damage is one of the most egregious reasons to the system. Imagine being penalized for defense. Why bother blocking because my chainsaws on block do even more damage than jabs on hit.
The phantom range of demon paws, yes, i agree with that. I dont agree with backdashes buff.. its already tiring to play against ppl running away all the time just to force a whif or to spam keep out tools, i think that is the most toxic gameplay. Its not like u cant backdash situations in this game. Buffing backdash reduces the interaction because it would be much more rewarding to backdash anything than to actually commit to an atack or another defensive option (like sidesteps, powercrush or evasive moves) and i think it would turn the game into another tekken 7 where ppl only plays like Phidx show in this video.
Especially Claudio his demon paw reaches further than devil jins heat smash and is fast asf he's character that doesn't get talked about enough as far as needing balancing imo.
i’m new to the tekken scene with tekken 8 and these analysis style videos are incredible in seeing how different the older games were and how we got here. keep up the great work
Just played T7 for the first time in years for like half an hour, got off and saw this upload lmao
preciate you for stayin down in the trenches n keepin the conversation goin in ur comments section Phi, shows you really give a dam bout the discussion and the state of the games
Right, all Tekkens had different playstyles and metas developing due to the core mechanics of the game, the beauty came from it developing organically from the players using the tools provided.
T8 will likely evolve over time but it feels like the 'optimal' playstyle is being forced on the player due to the overwhelming power of aggression, imo not good game design
exactly, older games nudged you towards a certain playstyle but never was it this forced to the point that it doesn't even feel safe doing string mixups.
The never ending cycle, the game i olayed for years is better than the one ive plased for just months
Tekken players are a bunch of whiners.
Many of them not even slightly above the average but they act like understanding everything just because they watched tmm analysis videos. This is the one and only truth.
You’d fit in perfectly with mailman fans
@@hyperreal who tf is mailman
You sound like you're projecting lmao
I'm max rank in every online tekken, i still don't like t8. ive been against this balancing direction for years.
love the in depth analysis! tekken 8 is the first fighting game i've dive into! wasn't into any fighting game before this, and the exposure to older tekken clips are amazing vid along with the analysis.
Who out here thinking tekken 7 was a well designed game
As someone who started with Tekken 8, its interesting how interactive the game is at close range, while also a surreal experience of waiting for someone to backdash to throw out a fireball. Great video! It put everything in very easy to understand terms, and I got to learn about possibly my new favorite fighting game.
I am sick of people complaining about Tekken7 just because someone brought up how unbalanced Tekken8 is.
Seriously, why you guys played that game for 7-8 years if it was that bad ?
Lol
This is probably the most thorough dissection of what Tekken "is" and why Tekken 7 was an aberration in the series from T5 onward (so I'm told). Thanks for putting this together.
The clip of Dragunov's string being made more linear gives me mixed feelings. It's nice for strings to be made more linear so that always-available defensive options are actually always available (even if my filthy anime player brain despises people escaping mixups). On the other hand, Dragunov's kick looks like it should hit someone who is trying sidestep to his left - and with literally thousands of moves and strings in the game, I know there must be moves that are designed like this. But Dragunov's won't work the same way, because "it was too OP and got patched."
I would be very interested to see you tackle the visual clarity problems Tekken has and how it could address them. There was an extremely high-effort Reddit post earlier this year which described how Leo in particular has four or five sets of moves that look identical but have different properties, frame data, and hitboxes.
Tekken 7 wasn't perfect, but I can sure tell you that I was much happier playing it than I am playing 8.
And that's valid. But as 2D game player, I don't understand why Tekken players... don't just play the game they prefer. We don't have to play the new shiny version of a game.
@@valeoncat13Right?! I love this comment. I prefer T7 AND T5 over T8. I haven't bought T8 and don't plan to.
It's crazy to look at the mexican KoF community not letting go of '98 vanilla and the brazilian community not letting go of 2002 vanilla as well. Also, that Third Strike tournament was the most hype shit from EVO this year.
@@valeoncat13load times, graphics, no cross-play. it's hard to go back.
@@Lethalassassin27 load times and no cross-play are real bummers outside of gameplay preference. Graphics can be easily ignored, and netcode is not as dogshit as some people say it is.
I can't and your a disingenuous idiot if you think that tekken 7 is in any way better than 8 when it's so piss easy to mash into combos that eat up 85% of health and all it takes is another mash to win. Tekken 7 literally plays like a beta to this day the balance is absolute garbage and they made guest dlc characters broken for clout which isnt something tekken 8 does and if that's your idea of fun then youre what's wrong with the tekken community
Honestly amazed at how quickly you put together such a stellar presentation!
The thing I really liked about Tekken 7, that is entirely missing from my experience of Tekken 8, is that it felt like we were "In Neutral" very often. The game was relatively focused on small Tekken. There were a lot of moments where it felt like nobody was "In Control" - and it felt like I was always ALLOWED TO DO STUFF. If I got launched, you combo me, and at the end (unless you gave up combo damage for jump-over oki or something) we went back into neutral. My top 3 moves on every character were Jab, df1, generic d4. Small tools that were generically good, but had small reward.
In Tekken 8, when I get hit by your plus on block mid with good tracking, I'm -17 and I have to hold literally any mix you want to apply. You can do a plus on block mid, do a WR move, do a hellsweep, grab. I can't sidestep or block, I can't armor or Rage art, Yoshi can't even flash. Those all die if I press any button, you're just too plus. My only option is stand block or crouch block. I am not allowed to DO STUFF. That's the most extreme example, but even at +5 oB its so oppressive. There's less small tekken, its entirely focused around BIG moves. Armor heat engagers and plus on block mids that do chip. df1's and generic d4's are depreciated, now you only use lows that are like +4 on hit.
The problem with the AGGRESSION model is that only one player gets to be AGGRESSIVE at a time. If you're the one being AGGRESSIVE, I have to hold whatever mix you decide. If I guess wrong, you get to continue being AGGRESSIVE. If you launch me, at the end of your combo, you get to continue being AGGRESSIVE when I stand up. But then, as soon as I block your move and I get a 10 frame punish, suddenly your turn is over and I am now fully AGGRESSIVE. I never feel like I am "In Neutral" in T8 after the first engagement, because that would require somebody to take their foot of the gas pedal when they are in the drivers seat.
This is so well put. This is the number one issue.
Well put, I agree, and thats why I LOVE tekken 8, press the gas on the get go!!!!
I fully agree with you.
Agree. In T7 in you cant be too agressive there is a lot of counterhit options and counter hit launchers.
Well put. It feels like in Tekken8 you are forced to overextend even if you don't want to because as soon as you don't, your opponent will, and you will be suffocated for the next 20 seconds. That's why magic 4 style moves were so strong in 7. If your opponent overextended with a big move, you could catch them with a magic 4 ch and remind them that they need to respect you. Now they respect it and you're more often than not in neutral because you're also aware that he can pull that out. Magic 4 could be annoying at times because sometimes that's all some people would do and I won't neglect that, but they had a purpose.
You could argue that that's also Power Crushes' purpose but you rarely have the frames to pull one out. And then you look at some character's power crushes being Safe High Fast Heat Engager Power Crush with pushback on block (that's a mouthful) while your character might have a Slow mid -14 with 0 pushback on block and you'd rather go back to blocking and trying to guess and trying to step strings that track after the first hit whiffs.
Oh and I almost forgot, all this while you're eating 5 to 15 chip damage which is, in my opinion, the dumbest decision they ever made when they added all the suffocating gameplay.
Extremely good video. And I appreciate that your focusing on more that T7 is not as good as we thought, and it’s not a defense of T8 but showing what it does now vs then.
CH fishing 7 the game
Man for real. I knew It was all changing when they said kings B1 counter hit has to be hit confirmed. Moving away from that basically for everyone. For the best. Not everyone should be a counter hit monster. We have Bryan and Steve for that
@@Boom_OH heres the thing, in t7 they still were counter hit monsters compared to the other characters. now they are homogenized to the point everyone has wall carry, and a demon paw. Lei for example didnt even compare to steve in the CH department unless you were mashing on strings or something.
My personal takeaway is that it's easier to appreciate an older game because nothing is really at stake. Like Tekken 5-tag 2's balancing is way worse than today's tekken. But people say now that they're great because it doesn't really matter.
I’m ngl I’m so sick and tired of people always shitting on t7 like it wasn’t the game that saved tekken from getting the soul calibur treatment. It was a flawed but fun game that rejuvenated tekken in many peoples eyes and had some of the greatest sets in the fgc
Tekken 7 was the better E-Sport….it was NOT better than T6 or Tag 2
and i am having more fun with T8 over T7
@JIX9ISLER1986 - to each their own, T7 is better than T8. Sorry not sorry!
@@patch3324 nah
It’s like how people treat SF4 now, where it’s apparently one of the bad ones despite reviving the franchise and carrying a huge swath of the FGC on its back for years
@@patch3324 Top 8 reasons why T8 is BETTER than T7
1) Better loading times - T7 load times are absurd - T8 its a non issue
2) T7 looks UGLY - the game was dated even when it released in 2017 on console
3) T7 terrible story mode - narrator - no need to elaborate there
4) Worst Character endings probably since tekken 1
5) Lack of game modes
6) Mediocre stage music - and unfinished stages - infinite azure the clouds dont even move - snow stage no footprints - T6 snow stage on ps3/xbox had FOOTPRINTS
7) BROKEN characters -Akuma Geese No explanation needed - DLC pay to win characters - Kuni, leroy
8) T7 is the most consistently INCONSISTENT tekken game hitboxes and sidesteps to date
T7 was the better E sport but it was NOT a better tekken game over T6 TAG2 and no not even T8 with all of its problems
I really appreciate this kind of deeper analysis trying to understand the pros, cons and reasons instead of the usual yapping most people resort to online when there is something they don't like
The real Tekken was the friends we made along the way
All three of the suggestions Speed made should be implemented in Season 2, in one way or another.
• For Point 1, the visual clarity of every string in the game should be re-evaluated. If it looks like it should track, then make it track. If it doesn't - like, if the attacker is spinning around, the strike comes from a specific angle, or if the attacker is attacking with their back to you - that string should either only track in one direction or not track at all. Moreover, if the frames allow for defensive movement in between string inputs, then the defender should be able to step & the success of the stepping should depend on the string's properties.
2. Heat, as it's designed, is a pure reward for pressing buttons. It simply does too many things for the attacker: changes properties of moves, provides massive frame advantages, gives chip damage, and health recovery. I think that either these aspects need to be greatly nerfed - preferably chip damage, I don't think it should be in the game at all - or Heat needs to be a once per set feature that needs to be similar to Rage Drive in that if you use it, you don't get access to Rage.
3. Backdashing should definitely be adjusted. I think they should buff the distance on the first backdash made from neutral, while keeping current distances for consecutive backdashes. Or maybe they could even do something like just frame backdashes for players with strong execution to give them extra distance.
Loving the deep dives on T7.
Tekken 7 was almost the most perfect Tekken we got and possibly the closer one to perfection we'll ever get. Tekken 8 had to fix only a few things to improve on it:
-No 2d characters (in fact I'd love if we don't have ANY guest characters at all.)
-Less counter hit launchers
-Less wall carry for many characters. Keep it specific to a few, like Lee.
-Improved side steps. movement.
That's all. A perfect Tekken game. But no, instead we got all the heat bullshit and moves that were there for 30 years have been removed for no reason.
I loved T7 and played it more than any other Tekken. Tekken 8 isn't for me personally. I might give it another chance if they add my main but I doubt it will happen
Who is your main?
@@wtvevethe million dollar question 😂
Lucky Chloe. Tell me you don't main Lucky Chloe. 🙈
Lei?
Maybe Akuma player tbh
I honestly wish they would fix the strings so we were back at DR. Right now sidestepping a string just to get clipped by the last hit while trying to wiffpunish is so frustrating and it makes sidestepping feel very risky.
We also have characters (toptiers) that have safe mid, mid strings that are in the range of -3 on block (looking at you drag) where the second hit also behaves like a homing move.
Honestly if they make sidestepping strings viable i think the game will feel better and we as players feel like the right read gets rewarded instead of "well shit, that move just went 180 on me".
I honestly think tekken 8 is hella more fun than 7 but it just needs some tweeks to become fantastic and less frustrating to play.
sidestepping is the best thing ever created, when it works. realigning is the worst, everytime it happens, it feels like one got dopamine robbed.
Less interactions means that stakes are higher, thats what made tekken 7 so cool to me compared to other games like street fighter 5 where there is a lot more exhanges between 2 opponents
Tag 2 and Tekken 6 were the peak of tekken gameplay imo. And it's been getting marginally worse since then with each game subsequently released.
Agreed , I miss tag 2
honestly bro i enjoy the game a ton so im glad someone i look up to also feels this way. i genuinely hate how much dooming some of the tekken community does. i feel like although the game is still too overtuned towards staying in the red zone it is slowly moving towards that direction of tag 2 and 6. the change to alisa and drag feels so good and little by little i actually feel confident moving into the red zone knowing i still have options. amazing video!
Tekken vet here played since tekken 3. Tekken 7 is my favorite tekken, I pushed to emperor in that game. Pushed to tekken god in 8. I quit tekken 8 completely out of frustration for the systems. Not everybody hated or was tired of the defensive playstyle of 7. I really enjoyed it. You can sit there and say “well just adjust” yeah ive tried. Plenty of times and id say i have adjusted, but i simply just do not enjoy the aggression in tekken 8. I agree that some people are saying “real tekken” which think is wrong because tekken 8 is still the 8th tekken game lol. But yeah I just straight up dont enjoy the aggression at all so i will not be playing tekken 8.
honestly man every valid criticism of tekken 8's gameplay loop is met with another unrelated argument. rn its that tekken 7 was garbage the whole time i guess?? like it changes anything abt how tekken 8 plays
@@kamren3542because people keep pointing to 7 being the Tekken standard despite 7 being extremely not Tekken.
Like at least compare 8 to 5 or 6 not the black sheep that is 7 that started the move from classic Tekken including nerfing movement
Tekken 8 is just a more shallow imo. I could play t7 for 6 hours and not even realize it. I’ll play t8 for an hour and hop off cuz it’s just too simple and boring. T7 was a good game but it had a ton of problems. Char just seemed like they had more identity. Not everyone had wall carry and not everyone had a demon paw. Just my opinion
@@boredomkiller99 tekken 7 is what revived the franchise, what are you on about? it's a near perfect fighting game.
@@jawnjawnson525 exactly bro
phidx i hope you see this, i absolutely adore your tekken content, you're NECESSARY, without you the foundation holding t8 up would be all the weaker
both games bad we want t5 tekken
Bro I appricate your view on this. I personally will not go back to T7 for the same reasons, parries and CH was crazy.
PhiDX been doing so many tricks on Tekken 8 I can hear the Tony hawk sound effect
best comment
this is so fire XD
I think the biggest gripe I have with t8 is actually how much the camera and gameplay zooms in and slows down. Like I think it destroys the flow of these sequences in a really bad way and it's a very ham fisted attempt to give new players extra time to think that I don't think works too well. It's cool for like, an hour, and then it starts to grate on you.
I'd like to see string tracking removed too, since that just makes sense in my brain, but tbh the heat/rage art time stop is far bigger an issue to me.
on youtube you should press "?" to pull up the hotkey menu. it would help with viewing these clips if you used the keyboard controls
Oh tysm that's huge
holy shit
Thanks for the vid. Been enjoying T8 myself
31:20 I'll literally cry tears of joy if they buff sidestepping/movement or nerf string tracking in T8.
I think the string tracking change would be interesting, but I also feel like some of the strings should track. It would make sense in some cases that the character would turn a little bit seeing his opponent stepped to the side in some cases. It would feel weird if no tracking happened at all.
I'm sure there is a balance to be found.
Incredible video Phi, you really help my smooth brain grasp this stuff so much better.
The desperation to pretend T8 isn’t mostly hot trash is insanity. Tekken 7 was mostly good with a few bad moments and a lot of great ones. Tekken 8 is literally the strive of the franchise at this point. Changed the game way too much and now an embarrassing and loud new audience (most of who know nothing about prior Tekken) are proclaiming that older Tekken wasn’t that good. Just stop. T8 is a joke compared to 7.
It’s pretty much the ones saying I’m having a blast & having fun who don’t know their being carried & is not really good at the game. Smh
Nah Tekken 7 was crap way too slow and rewarded running too
Game was casual AF
Useless sidesteps
Homing on all hellsweep style moves by the end season
Low parry did a million damage.
Throws made even easier to break
Can't catch rolls to rejuggle or follow up, generally much easier to get off ground
Execution requirements dropped for many things
since tekken 3 it goes downhill thats why ppl say tekken 7 was real tekken it was just better than 8 doesnt mean it was good
9:10 lmao I was not ready for that.
Once you hit paste and I saw ALL OF THAT TEXT, i said to myself "Oh no he didn't" but you just went ahead and said, "Yes I did"
Tekken 7 wasn't as great as you think, but comparatively Tekken 8 is pure dog water
That T7 JDCR-Knee fight was called "The Best Tekken Set in History" at some point on youtube, i think it's Rev Major 2017
So the OP Speedkicks cited that said "This is real Tekken" is a big of a stretch, that was pretty much lightning in a bottle gameplay
As a defensive player that jdcr vs knee fight is probably the best tekken set of all time. Tekken 7 was a lot better before season 3.
Impressive analytics - Great matches, I can see the difference but I don't think they fully represent the Tekken 7 situation. It is great to have different combat flows though in the Tekken franchise. Very proud of the win over Knee lol, gj.
Everyone is so agressive on t8 compared to t7 i prefer t7 more grounded and defensive gameplay but i don't hate t8.
I'm glad someone finally put it into better words than I could. I've always felt that Tekken 7, and now Tekken 8, played optimally at higher levels reminds me of a jousting competition. The knights back up, run at each other with their best buttons into heat stuff, repeat until someone dies.
I've gotten used to it, and I'm not gonna pretend that older games didn't have their unique issues, with my favorite Tag 2's egregious damage as an example, but it's just kind of... annoying? I guess is the best word I can think of.
Also, T7 Legendary Knee v JDCR match was S1 of Tekken 7.1, after they've had YEARS to cook in arcade. And arcade was disgustingly imbalanced then. People compare
Thanks for the perspective and knowledge, as always. I love T8 and gonna keep playing it
Tekken 8 is far worse then 7 by a mile competitively tekken 8 is a scrub factory made for scrubs
Incredibly insightful video.
For me, I am perfectly happy w' Tekken 8's style of play. I have noticed that my gameplay is a LOT better than my Tekken 7 gameplay and I spent nearly 650h in 7 with a max. rank of Vanquisher. In 8 at 281h, I have two characters at Garyu, both Mishimas, with massively high win rates so I can likely push for Ruler ranks. I put this down to 2 things:
1.) I have grown as a player and gotten better.
2.) Tekken 8's style of play, both offensively and defensively, suits me a lot more.
I find myself stepping more in 8 and being rewarded handsomely for it. The over-reliance on an insane kbd in 7 held me back and I was not a fan of it. At all. I never felt like I was interacting with the opposite player, whereas in 8 I feel like it is such an interactive game with the different options we have available to us.
Thanks for the always-awesome content my dude.
EDIT: Just to add something - you are a good player, dang it! Your level of knowledge and gameplay is epic and your ability to portray that across the entirety of Tekken's skill base is rare. Don't be so hard on yourself!
What i don't like is how tekken 8 does away with any other playstyle that isn't rushdown aggression. Thats incredibly reductive. Player expression be damned. Being punished for being defensive is not what many want tekken to be.
If you're being punished for being defensive you're not very good at defense
@@Walamonga1313 You know what I mean. Defense is heavily discouraced and offense is encouraged. Before they lock you down with 50/50's and what not.
I genuinely like how the neutral works in this game. The neutral triangle is balanced again as opposed to tekken 7 where statistically you would win by abusing keep outs and crazy backdashes. And when I first tested tekken 8 during the beta I popped off really hard when I sidestepped Jin's electric for the first time and when I played . However, this game doesn't feel fun when you get launched and your back is against the wall while your opponent has heat activated and you just have to hold it while your lifebar is getting chipped away. These issues are very clear but we are still in the first year of Tekken 8, and I know tekken games tend to change drastically from the arcade version to the console version. ( or in this case the debut of tekken 8 ) This is why I won't give up and I actually wanna go pro in this game.
Also it's kind of funny to see the contrast between the online community ( reddit, youtube, tweeter, etc ... ) and my local community. I live in Madagascar where the cost of the game and internet is way too much so people only play in like playrooms offline, and since the consoles we are playing on aren't ours, we don't care about the battlepasses and Tekken shop thing. We are just here for the gameplay.
And our community is as big as ever right now with a 96+ local tournament every month and we even got a challenger event. There will be a tournament on Saturday and Harada and Nakatsu will actually attend that tournament to see my local community.
I find it really weird how tekken is very controversial everywhere else while in our country it's the best it has ever been.
Tekken 7 definitely had its problems but I just enjoyed the pace of the gameplay more in general, idk why everybody on Twitter feels like they need to dunk on everyone else’s opinion and prove it’s the wrong opinion or something lol.
I probably would’ve liked DR the most if I knew about the competitive aspect of the game when I was like 14.
Thank you. That's the problem we T7 lovers have with T8. Never said T7 was perfect. But I want to die knowing what happened and how to improve it round 2.
T8 plays too fast to download your opp. Most matches end in 12 or less seconds.
T8 pros also die to the same setups low levels do even after labbing because of speed and you are usually (-) on block because of some stance transition that also masks 2 unblockable highs (U-Grab or G-Break) a launching Mid and a knockdown low to followup for 45-60 damage for blocking, all happening in 2 seconds?
If T7 was 1x speed T8 is 4-5x speed that's the problem for me imo.
@@Kenkyou_Nogata My question is, if you like Tekken 7 that much and don't like 8, why don't you play that instead? The game is still available. Before getting an interest in Tekken, I was playing Blazblue, and that's what the Blazblue community did. Most stayed with the old game instead of moving on to the crazy tag version of the game with insane sandwich 4 way mixups with shit flying across the screen every quarter of a second.
So instead of talking negative about Tekken 8 and raining on other peoples' parade, why not just boot up Tekken 7 and play that? Wouldn't you have more fun? Isn't it exhausting to complain like this?
@jeanschyso I already do that but I've already paid for T8 using the last of what I saved up for my "Guilt free high spend" budget for one game for the year. Other people also have their own reasons besides my own and your own too. Not all of us have the same motivations.
I still play Tekken 8 because I love certain things while I hate other things. Also have to polish my skills and habits for when the game finally reaches an acceptable balance. T7 and T8 feel way different that a week away can actually cause sizable disadvantages.
Works for everything else in life. I love my wife but we have problems I complain about. Doesn't mean I don't love her and should get another wife. Perhaps the problems are not that big but they are there.
People who complain hoping for change love the game but the problems are glaring and hard to ignore. It's an abusive relationship but a relationship nonetheless.
Note how I never said T8 is bad. Only I stated where I find critical areas. I love the game but one should never be so loyal that they can never find criticism in the subject. T8 lets me down because I could be enjoying this game so much but I cannot and already invested in it.
@Perry_Talion it's a matter of taste for a lot of people so people will always disagree. But at least your comment is cival and not like every reactionary doomer online. People are too charged and love to bandwagon or complain at some arbitrary 'oversimplification/appealing to casuals'. It's just that civil discussion in fgc when comparing games is practically unheard of.
I enjoyed T7 but had way more problems overall imo, people tried to play it like Street Fighter with all the backdashes and pokes. It was also just 'counterhit launcher the game' imo, you fish for the ch. Also the meta characters were way more aggregious compared to T8.
That being said the aggressiveness in T8 is more to my tastes but I think everyone agrees the balancing at launch was a mess. Again everyone seems to glaze over that the game also hasn't been out 1 year nor had any arcade iterations to balance things.
The monetization stuff is another topic but I think it's a bit overblown. I'd rather it not be there but it's pretty easy to just ignore it and just play the game. Most times it's a publisher decision and the Devs unfortunately don't have much say. The battle pass is pretty much free at this point and people act like there's a gun to there head when talking about mtx in any game.
To me, real Tekken will always be 5 (and 3, but that's my nostalgia talking).
Say what you want about t8 being braindead, but t8 is getting us closer to t5 glory days than what t7 gave us. Being less than a year into t8 cycle, the potential is exciting to me.
We're a handful of tweaks shy of hitting a middle ground that'll having everyone loving this game for the next 5-8 years. The outcries from Twitter are 80% Salt.
Change is uncomfortable, but another decade of t7 is pain enough to kill this game