Thank you for this very informative video especially the last half. A lot of video's talk about neck resets but your explanation and demo is the BEST on TH-cam so far!
Yes, I have heard David Greer tell that story. Resets change the geometry of the guitar so the sound can change. In the vast majority of cases, I'd say the sound improves or stays the same. The thing is that once the geometry gets bad enough, you may have a choice between possibly changing the guitar's sound and a guitar that is hardly playable.
Thanks Excellent job - some guys used to use a quarter at the 12th fret. But back then we we not looking at Martins. A USA Quarter = 0.0675 ish of an inch Two dimes = 0.10 ish of an inch. Either way of often do you have your micrometers with you? Also like the 16 inch ruler on the frets to measure fret board to bridge / saddle relationship. AdamK
Scott Baxendale, as maybe some of you know, is a long-experienced and excellent repair guy and builder. Thanks for piping in, Scott. However, here is a very recent Facebook quote from TJ Thompson, perhaps the most well-known and respected vintage repair person in the country, regarding steel string tension: "The 1st time I saw 75lbs of steel stacked on a guitar was at the Martin factory in 1984 (still the best way I know to clamp a pick guard in place while adhesive dries). I was at once horrified and intrigued. Around that same time I heard that steel strings exert roughly 154lbs of tension/pull on the guitar’s top, and I thought to myself “hey, that’s how much I weigh!”. If your mind works anything like mine, you know where this is going. So I set the back of my first guitar body (still neck-less) into a carved fixture that supported the sides evenly (more on this later), put some protective paper on the spruce top, positioned the whole rig under my chin-up bar, removed my shoes and stepped right up. Spoiler alert, the top held and the guitar is still going strong, whew."
The string tension is not a dead weight perpendicular to the springs. If you want to simulate the force, you would need to stand the guitar upright and apply the load downward on the headstock. I think your experiment definitely proves that my mind does not work like yours.
Yes, a shim, or really a "wedge" is usually added under the fingerboard that extends over the guitar top. Starting at nothing, the wedge gets taller between the neck joint and end of the fingerboard near the sound hole. On really valuable and "all-original" guitars, in "collector condition" some purists don't put in a shim. But without one, the fingerboard appears to "dive" down at the point where the fingerboard hits the body, and those highest frets are fairly unplayable because the string height is so high. Most fingerboards are ebony or rosewood and, if a skilled craftsman is doing it, matching wood can be used for the wedge and it will look seamless and not catch the eye. Or, put another way, a wedge looks a lot better than a diving fingerboard tab, which DOES catch the eye. One twist on this is when the fingerboard is bound. I've never seen a "bound" shim. I have a harp guitar (Dyer #7) with a bound ebony fingerboard and an ebony shim was put under the fingerboard extension during reset. Looks fine, and much better than the alternative (no-shim/diving fingerboard) to my eye.
I had to have the neck reset on my 5 year old Martin. Martin covered it under warranty. I had to shave the saddle when it was new to get the action to an acceptable height . After four years the saddle was almost flush with the bridge and without the tension from the strings pushing down on to the saddle tone was suffering.
I have a new guitar that failed the ruler test. The tip of the ruler lands at the 1/3 top of the bridge. There is a bow between frets 12-20. What else can I look for apart from a neck reset?
Ha! Yeah, I guess pocket change like dimes is not as common as it once was... especially in Europe. I used dimes so people didn't have to be exact, and didn't have to find a ruler, as many folks just don't have the patience or coordination. But I hear you. For those who want to measure, in general, you want the space between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the thickest low string to be LESS than 1/8", preferably quite a bit less. If you are at 1/8" or more, it is highly likely that you need a neck reset. Keep in mind that this assumes that the bridge is still full height and has not been shaved down. There is info on bridge and saddle heights in the vid.
Yeah, Retire Soon, I've heard of occasional new Martins that need resets way sooner than they should. Could be they are just making too many of them too fast and some detail, like drying out the wood enough, falls through the cracks. My understanding is that they have taken neck resets off the warranty coverage. Certainly they won't cover it anymore after a bunch of years have gone by like they used to. So while it is unlucky that this happened to you, you are lucky they covered it. Your point that the guitar sounded bad with a low saddle is a good one and it is likely clear to you that you were losing a degree of tone every time you lowered that saddle to get the action better. Yours was a pretty new guitar, so it made sense to bring it back to Martin, and they will do a good job fixing it (though it usually takes a LONG time!) One point that I try to make in the "Advice" section of my website, GrandmasGuitar.com, is that, for VINTAGE Martins, it is actually not a good idea to take it back to the factory for repair or restoration. Martin is in the business of making and selling NEW guitars, and while they certainly CAN fix vintage instruments, they are NOT up to speed on the latest and most acceptable restoration techniques. Until not long ago, they would overspray the entire guitar to make it look "fresh" after any repair. ANY repair. Seems like a nice service, but it ended up devaluing countless guitars. There are many restoration experts who are far better with vintage instruments than Martin is, because vintage restorations are all they do.
Hi Jasper; In this discussion I'm talking about how hide glue is used in the neck joint. It is perfect for that purpose because it can be fairly easily "unstuck" with heat and moisture, when the guitar's geometry needs to be corrected. Martin stopped using hide glue in constructing their guitar bodies in 1965. I'm not sure when they stopped using hide glue for the neck joints but it was likely much later. In terms of "sound", when considered on its own, I don't think the kind of glue used makes a hearable difference in a guitar. BUT, let's say it makes a 1% difference, because it is harder than other glues and therefore "conducts" vibrations better. When added to the MANY other differences between vintage guitars and modern guitars, all the little differences (thinner finish, lighter woods, lighter bracing, etc etc) add up to a very "hearable" total. So it is not JUST hide glue that can make a vintage guitar sound better, it is many things, of which hide glue is likely one.
What is the method for ensuring that the neck once reset is exactly perfectly centered on the fretboard? Every video on TH-cam talks about equal shims on heel and sanding but no one talks about how to establish a precise center line prior to re-glueing. Please share your thoughts.
Hi Gil, I have questions about my 1943 000-18 needing a neck reset. Before I found your site, all I could get here at was repair guys doing neck resets; nicely done, but not answering my questions. Your video is great (Edit: I love the dime method) and clued me in regarding my 000's needs. In decimals of an inch, at what height would you consider too high? My 000 is at 0.10 in.(which I like) but the original saddle is getting pretty low; guitar sounds amazing though. Thank You!!
The action will likely continue to get higher over time. When it gets to the point where you are having trouble with it a neck reset is likely due. There is kind of a feeling of "too much tension" on the strings when a neck reset is needed. I feel it immediately and hate that feeling! What string height is "too high" is a bit of a personal call, but the two dime method is, for me, the point of no return. On the plus side, when you do have a reset done and get the geometry correct, you'll end up with a new, taller saddle and that increased break angle over the saddle should make the guitar sound better. It should also be easier to play, with the strings hovering closer to the frets.
Well having repair and or maintenance costs that outweigh the value of the instrument is something that I deal with all the time, and it is hard! I buy and restore exclusively vintage instruments-- always pre-1969 and almost always much older than that. And I try to buy instruments that have decent value-- enough that I can give them the love they need and not end up under water. It can be sad to tell someone that the guitar or banjo that they think is worth $1000 dollars IS worth that... but only after $1200 worth of work! If you are buying a modern guitar for $1000 it should not need a reset for at least 15 years, probably longer. If the instrument sounds good and you have fallen in love with it over that 15 year stretch, it could be worth doing a neck reset and maybe some new frets. It's up-keep, and most instruments will need service now and again... it's part of the program. Cars are the same way. but you can't write a song with a car.
A neck reset should not cost thousands of dollars. I can see a couple hundred but not $500. Especially since it's much easier to remove a neck now with like StewMac tools than it used to be back in the old days. My local Martin certified luthier does it for $250 maybe less if you are a repeat customer.
I hear people say in an ideal world a lot, I have a D-15 from about 2000. The top has no belly and it is flat. It always had a little bit of a high action. First off should strings break de-tuned when not in use? Also at what point do you do a reset. Ideal is never going to be achievable through the lifespan of a guitar between sets
Hi Bandicoot; If you got your measurements right, the first thing I'd say is that the saddle is not low. 1/4" on the bass side is actually too-tall. If the ruler is hitting 1/16" down from the top of the bridge (not the bridge saddle), that is odd. Seems like the guitar might benefit from a trip to a luthier for a setup. The string height sounds OK. So it is hard to visualize what's going on. If you bought it new, it sounds like it should possibly go back to Martin for a neck set, if they still honor that in their guarantee (that might be not available anymore). Best of luck.
The ruler test is only reliable if the neck is perfectly straight. Also a bridge might be high because of too much humidity, loose bracing etc. These factors and many more must be taken into account before going for a reset. Also there seems to be some kind of hysteria regarding low action but I would wager most acoustics are rarely played past the fourth fret 😄 so action at the twelfth fret is non issue for most.
Pablo Escobar I agree with what PEscobar has written here. In addition, bringing the instrument up to proper humidification is a must before assessing for a neck reset. Surprising body changes can occur with humidification, particularly for a vintage acoustic.
I am trying to give laymen an easy test that works 95% of the time. Then neck doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but that helps. If the guitar has loose bracing and/or an overhumidified/swelled top, then yes, it could make the string height overly high. The luthier that they bring the guitar to will quickly see that. In my experience, high string height is most often a symptom of a guitar that needs a reset. And yes, most people play in the "cowboy chord" area of the first few frets, but a guitar with high action in need of a reset feels "tension-y" and slightly but very noticeably uncomfortable even within those first few frets. Getting the guitar's geometry squared away will make it sound and play its best. If your guitar has gone through drastic humidity changes and the strings are now too high/or too low, then getting the guitar into stable 40% humidity is recommended for a few weeks to see where it settles. THEN do the tests.
Most people playing a wartime Martin will probably play past the fourth fret. Most of us who play a Martin guitar play past the fourth fret. Most belly rise cannot be solved by humidity control. A loose brace is an easy fix but will it solve the belly rise? Doubtful. Otherwise, you are looking at a neck reset... yIDoghQo'
When the action on my 1966 Martin D-28 reached 10/64 at the 12th fret, it was time for a trip to the Martin factory. They did a neck reset, and the guitar has been just fine for the last 30 years! Also, remember when flying, to LOOSEN all the strings ALL the way...that 150 pounds of string tension is a real concern--especially if the guitar HAS to go in as baggage--even 'escort baggage' where it is hand loaded at the entrance to the plane itself.
Yes, having tension on the neck is best, but the "straight edge" method of checking the neck angle is still quite accurate if you have a guitar that has no strings on it.
My year old Martin GPCMMV, useing the ruler it hits the bridge top, not the saddle by a 1/16th of an inch, the saddle is low 1/8th treble 1/4th bass, 7/64th at the bottom of the twelfth fret string height. It plays stiff, and if I lower the saddle to 6/64th it will be low. So I guess it's the neck. I took care of it, 50% humidity 76 degrees in case, constant. By the way, none of the other two Martins, D28 and OM21 hit that mark and they play perfect and the action is stable at 6/64ths.
Cool story (except for the stolen guitar part). Yes, Martin would have reset the neck, if you were the original owner, but you would have had to pay to ship it to them and then wait months. I've heard that they are no longer offering this as part of their guarantee, or that they've added some requirements that make it harder to get the reset done on their dime...
Correct Gil. I am the original owner of a 1974 D12 35. Martin said the neck reset was not covered by the limited (note the word) lifetime warranty. I paid about $1,600 for a neck reset and related work. Unfortunately, two years later, the action is getting high and the neck is on the move. Checking that all out soon with a pro.
When we're discussing neck resets, we are not talking about the straightness of the neck itself. The neck can be dead straight, and the guitar can still need a reset. It is the neck ANGLE to the body that we're dealing with in a neck reset situation. If you have a neck that is back bowed, that is a truss rod issue. Tighten the rod a little at a time and that will add more "relief" in the neck and straighten it. If the neck is actually straight but the strings are still lying on the upper frets, the neck has likely been "overset" (i.e. cocked to far back during a reset). To reverse that is not easy but can be done, by a competent luthier. I've had that done once and it came out perfectly but my guy is highly skilled.
Hey there. A new guitar should not have neck angle problems unless it was really poorly constructed. I deal with vintage acoustic instruments, mostly. Most modern instruments have a truss rod in the neck. Now you say there is a bow in the neck, but above the 12th fret shouldn't matter much. A Truss rod can usually be used to correct a bow, but not that high up. In correcting a bow with a truss rod adjustment, there is a chance that that will somewhat improve the issue. But what is the issue? High string height at the 12th fret? Importantly, , I don't know if you are talking about an acoustic or an electric guitar here... But I'd say if it is new, and isn't playable due to neck angle issues and strings too far from the frets, it should be returned to where it was bought, if it is an acoustic guitar. If this is an electric guitar with a bolted on neck, that is an easy fix and can be corrected by taking off the neck and shimming it to tilt it back. An electric with a glued-in neck is a different kettle of fish and likely should get returned. Tell me more, and send photos, or bring it to someone knowledgable and get them to look at it...! I hope it is correctable.
Hi. I have a brand new dreadnought guitar and the bridge on the base part is a bit higher the the treble side. I shaved the bass part of the bridge to make it equal to the treble side. My question is since i shaves it off, using the straight edge from the neck, I see about 1mm of space between the bridge and the straight edge. Some videos says that is sould landat the top of the bridge, some says it should have a bit of space. Is that okay? Or should I replace the bridge? What is your thought about this?
Hi, I'm putting a new top on a 12 string acoustic. I removed the old top but left the binding on. When I glue the top in place, what should the neck angle be in relation to the bridge with no strings and no tension. This will determine the length of the top. Thanks
About 1/8". The dimes are used so that people don't have to find a ruler, hold it still and then squint to figure out the height. It's not exact, but pretty good.
Depending on where you live, neck resets are about $400-600. Yes, the job is the same for older as it is for newer instruments. It is key to have someone who knows vintage instruments work on an old guitar. I have seen neck heels broken and necks "overset" (action too low) by people who don't know the nuances of vintage guitars. Done properly, a neck reset is one of the only alterations to a vintage instrument that does not lower its value. In fact, a reset can increase the value because the playability and sound are improved by a proper reset.
@@stackedhippiechick Well, stackedhippiechick, the subject here is "resets" not "refrets", but the answer is the same for both. "No". With correct neck angle the guitar will play better and sound better. The originality and value is not effected, provided that the work is done well.. Refretting is pretty much the same thing. This is all my opinion, but I think most vintage experts would agree. That said, an investment in frets or reset is not necessarily something that will produce a positive return in a sale.These things are more like maintenance, not "improvements."
hello sir, do you think there is another way to loosen up the glue without drilling a pinhole under 14th fret? If there is not, do I have to drill one or two holes? do I have to cover that hole after re-gluing the neck? thanks in advance. I enjoy your explanation in this video, very clear so I want to try resetting my guitar.
Jerry, I would not recommend doing this yourself, but if you have a guitar that you don't mind messing up I guess you have to start somewhere. No there is no other way other than loosening the glue in the neck joint that is acceptable in today's practice. Usually one hole is drilled and often a modified cappuccino machine is used to inject the steam. You want to protect the face of the guitar while you inject steam. Putting the fret back in at the end of the job will cover the hole. Best would be to watch neck reset videos or to get instruction from someone who has done it before. Good luck!
Hide glue was discontinued by Martin after 1964. That glue is renown for drying glass hard and therefore transferring vibration better. Whether you can hear the difference is up to your ears. I have found that while I can't hear the difference when one detail, like glue, is different, I feel I can when I add up all the things that make a vintage guitar different; the top wood, glue, thickness and kind of finish, etc. I think hide glue is a minor but still relevant component in the vintage sound.
Francis; I think there are typos in your questions, but let's see... A guitar that is 20 years old could need a reset, especially if the neck angle was not done too well in the first place. It is possible that the neck is bowed and could be straightened with the truss rod and this would make the action feel better without the big expense of doing a reset. A reset is for the neck angle correction, not neck straightness correction. Also, the strings should be detuned if you aren't going to play the guitar for a while to relieve tension on the neck. Finally, I'll say that older (50 years or so) guitars are less likely to need resets, especially if they have had one in their past. Guitars tend to "settle" and stop changing as much, so, potentially, after about 50 years, the guitar is pretty much how it will stay, or at least close. That is my impression, at least. At what point to do a reset? When the high action becomes limiting to your enjoyment of playing. And when you have +/-$500 you can spare!
Good question. Yes, the guitars I'm describing in the video don't have adjustable truss rods, though many guitars had non adjustable rods of metal or ebony in the neck to help keep them straight. The key thing to keep in mind is that the neck ANGLE is a different issue than neck STRAIGHTNESS. An adjustable truss rod can be used to get the neck straight if there is a bow in it. It can't be used to change the neck's angle to the body. Changing the neck angle on an instrument that has a glued-in (vs. bolted on) neck calls for a neck reset. So, yes, resets can be needed even if there is an adjustable truss rod. For years, no other manufacturer other than Gibson used an adjustable truss rod because Gibson patented the adjustable truss rod in the '20s. Gibson used them on the vast majority of Gibson-branded instruments. (Gibson built instruments with other house brands on the headstock (Kalamazoo, Recording King, Kel Kroydon, Mastertone, etc.) and they nearly always left out the adjustable truss rod, or ANY straightening rod in these off-brand builds. If you wanted a truss rod, you had to buy a flagship Gibson. The Gibson off-brands often need BOTH neck straightening (difficult to do without any rod, but doable) AND a reset. That said, again, a truss rod does not make the guitar less vulnerable to the need for a neck reset. The need for a reset is more a factor of the lightness and geometry of the build of the guitar. Vintage Gibsons, with or without truss rods, do sometimes need neck resets and vintage Martins usually do. This is likely because Martins, in general, are more lightly built and braced than most Gibsons. I've found it unusual to come across a Martin guitar with a bowed neck. From the 1800's to the early '30s, Martin used bar frets to keep their necks straight. (the frets are "wedge" shaped and force the fingerboard flat). After that, not counting a few years of metal shortage (1942-1945 and 1953), Martin used non-adjustable, T-shaped metal rods to keep the necks straight. Both these systems worked well. They didn't start using adjustable rods till much later, when Gibson's patent ran out.
I have found "the ruler test" and the "dime test" to be excellent GENERAL indicators of the guitar's geometry. And the tests can be done easily by someone who doesn't know much about guitars. Yes, loose bracing and/or too much humidity can make the top "belly" up and increase the bridge height, but in my experience that does not negate the value of the general tests. Maybe in another video I'll do a different test with the ruler laid parallel and just below the bridge, to show how a top can bulge behind the bridge. That said, some "belly" in the bridge area is an appropriate and even good thing, in my opinion, as I want the top to be under tension. As they say: the best sounding guitars are very lightly built and just under the point of exploding from string tension. Its a delicate balance. To the point that the string height (action) is not important at the 12th fret, I would somewhat agree that many people don't play up that high very often, BUT I would also say that playability up high on the neck is not the only (nor the most important) reason for resetting a neck. When the neck is pulled forward, yes the guitar is hard to play on the higher frets, but it also has an unmistakable feeling of "tension" even in fretting the lower frets. That's because the overall geometry is out of whack. Furthermore, a guitar with proper geometry/neck angle will often SOUND better than one in need of a reset. Everything-- the feel, the intonation, the action, etc. is better. I play a lot with a bottleneck slide (th-cam.com/video/HPmeHfJh1wY/w-d-xo.html) so I like higher action (the slide rides on top of the strings… it doesn't push them down and "fret" them like a finger does), but ALL my three vintage harp guitars I bought needed neck resets. To the person asking about setting up a new top on their 12string acoustic, the question of the neck angle in relation to the bridge with no string tension is a good one, but far beyond my knowledge. I am not a luthier. I sure wish I was as it would save me thousands and thousands that I spend on neck resets, loose braces, cracks repair, fret work, etc. etc. Your question should be addressed to a qualified luthier. I have found luthiers who I think are the best at a particular job or who are the best with a particular brand of guitar and I pay them highly for their expertise. I also demand their best work. I don't ever want to mess up an instrument that I care about by working on some part of it that is over my head. THere is a discussion of that here, on my website, GrandmasGuitar.com… grandmasguitar.com/martin-gibson-timeline.html
HI, i have a Kent Chasson guitar with a cantilever neck. Can these kind of necks be easier or harder to set up in a general guitar first set up? As thinking about it, although it has a much faster angle set up for high or low action when newer, but to get a similar low action later when all other adjustments are made maybe although it doesn't really need re-fretting it maybe the case in order to obtain the same optimum string height ie low string action as it was before if that make sense!?
Well, yes the mahogany Martin had a saddle that was too high. The neck had been over-set (tilted back too far) by an inexperienced repair person. However, a high saddle doesn't create bellying in the top, it creates too much break angle and will cause the front of the bridge to break off. Belly is caused by bracing that has flexed out of shape due to string tension at the bridge, or loose braces. Some bellying is a good thing, in my opinion, as you want the top to be under tension.
The action still looks quite high to me on both of those guitars after the reset. What is the measurement of two dimes in mm? I’m Based in UK and curious what measurement you are classing as correct height.
Well, you want the dimes to be "held" by the string tension. So you want the string height to be less than 1/8" or 3.175mm. Neck setting is an art not a science, so it can be hard to predict exactly what you'll end up with in the end. Part of this is that the guitar changes with string tension on it. Most guys measure the top deflection under tension before the reset, and figure that in, hoping to end up with a tall saddle height that they can then shave down to get good action. Another thing that can make the action look high is if the frets are tall. The distance you are measuring is from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string, but your eye is "seeing" the top of the fingerboard to the bottom of the string, and that can be an optical illusion. OR it could be that the not enough wood was removed from the heel, and the geometry wasn't improved as much as it should have been... it happens!
One place where mass manufacturers save money is in setting up their guitars. Many don't do anything and expect the shops to do setups. Many buyers can't tell the difference and assume since a guitar is "new" that it is perfect. Most are not. Also, manufacturers can set the action high so that there is less chance of string buzz (i.e. high action hides the lack of set up work.) Also, let's say the guitar shipped from a dry place to a humid place or a cold place to a hot place. In both cases the acoustic guitar top will expand and the bridge will rise. That could account for the straight edge hitting the bridge. New guitars are not stable; they are still drying out, still moving. Sometimes the wood they were built from was not dried long enough or wood that was too young and "green". All this means that a new guitar can have plenty of issues-- even the need for a neck reset. Old guitars (25+ years), on the other hand, ARE stable. They've done all the moving and shrinking they are going to do unless they are exposed to drastic conditions. Another reason why older is better!
The fretboard does not bend down because of humidity. The sound hole area "caves in" some as the guitar slightly folds in half and the fretboard angling down toward the hole is a symptom of that. Many times, a neck reset will include a wedge/shim under the fingerboard tab (the part overt the body) to compensate for the drop off of the fingerboard.
Hi; Technically you are right, but when I say the "base of the saddle" I mean the point where it meets with the wood of the bridge. I am concerned with how much saddle is showing above the wood of the bridge.
My 74 D35 Martin has worn frets, (beyond the 4th fret too). Would it be best to do a refret first before deciding on a neck reset? The last setup was done by a 'qualified' tech and the nut and saddle replaced, however the action is still a little high and the guitar is stiff to play even at the bottom end. The action could only be lowered so much due to fret wear. Would it be best to do a refret first before deciding on a neck reset?
It sounds like you need frets AND a reset, I'm afraid. Frets are usually done AFTER the reset. If you do the "ruler" test in the video and your neck angle is off, new frets aren't going to help that. On the plus side, once you do a reset you'll get a new higher saddle which will help the guitar sound better. And new frets with improved neck angle will make it easier to play. (Early '70s Martins are infamous for having the bridge in the wrong place and the intonation being off... if you have a really good repair person, they might be able to help with that too, during a reset.) Best of luck.
David greer had a vintage martin given by his father and he says 5 of America best luthiers told him he needed a neck reset and so he did it. And the guitar sounded terrible after. He said it completely ruined the sound.
Usually on a guitar say that cost new 1000 bucks or less that needs a neck reset. What your looking at is a total loss if you factor in the cost of a reset against what the instrument worth.
I cover this above, but yes a shim is often added. When done well it looks great and eliminates the look of the fingerboard tab "diving" down into the top. The shim should be the same wood as the fingerboard and can be blended to be visually not a distraction
Patrick, first off, I think what you are talking about is that you shaved down the bridge SADDLE, not the actual bridge, which is the wood that holds the saddle (usually a white strip made of bone or plastic). A new guitar shouldn't need adjustment, but modern companies cut corners often and don't do a proper setup. The bass side height of the bridge saddle should not necessarily be the same height as the treble side, it is more a matter of how low you want the action (string height to the frets) on the bass side and you also don't want the strings to get fret buzz because the action is too low. My whole video is about neck ANGLE. The neck angle on a new guitar really should be fine and shaving the bridge saddle does not effect the neck angle, it only effects the string height. If a straight edge set on its edge and on the fret tops hits the BRIDGE wood (not the saddle) 1 mm below the base of the saddle that is not very good on a new instrument. The leading corner of the straight edge should hit the base of the saddle. If the leading edge hits 1mm up onto the saddle then your neck is "overset" and that is a big problem. It should be returned to where it came from. I hope this helps, I'm a little unclear that we are speaking the same language..!
Yes, pre- truss rod. Gibson had the patent on truss rods since the early '20s so other companies didn't use them. However, as I say above, "When we're discussing neck resets, we are not talking about the straightness of the neck itself. The neck can be dead straight, and the guitar can still need a reset." It is the neck ANGLE to the body that we're dealing with in a neck reset situation. Neck straightness is a truss rod issue. Old Martins don't have truss rods, but the neck can be straightend using "compression fretting" basically using slightly thicker frets to force the bow out of a neck. Real old Martins had "Bar Frets". A great luthier can even use compression to straighten a bar fret neck.
I had (was stolen 2015) a 1997 D-18, the action was high, my cousin, Jim Macintosh, is a master wood craftsman and makes guitars, he reset the neck for me and it was awesome, I paid for the tools needed. Nice to see the process explained, Thanks! I was told that Martin Co would have reset it for me but I didn't have the original receipt anymore.
Every time I try and find someone to give me some real knowledge on neck angle, I have to first listen to all this 101neckprattle to get to the meat of the discussion.
It’s not 150lbs of tension. It’s more like 70-80lbs. The bridge doesn’t rise, but the neck block rotates over time. Relief(bow) of the neck is an entirely different issue than the neck angle. This confusion has been beat to death. An adjustable rod doesn’t fix a bad neck angle, and a neck reset doesn’t correct too much relief. The neck plane should line up exactly with the top of the bridge under tension. The bridge should be .350” thick and the saddle should be about 3/16” with low action. This will indicate the neck is set correctly.
Hopefully, you got the "meat" your were looking for... eventually. The majority of people I hear from need the elementary stuff and seem to appreciate the 101 kind of stuff. Perhaps you are ready for a second level course.
looks liked its time to buy a electric guitar. Choose one with a removable neck so you don't have this problem, or if you do its easily fixed. Just unbolt and add shims.. done! BTW acoustic guitars should all have removable necks. Guitar is all about a string vibration above a fret board where you can play notes. No need to over complicate it with fixed necks..
My 2003 Tacoma acoustic had all the indications of needing a reset. Fortunately, as I began the operation, I noticed the first bolt I loosened seemed too easy to turn. A half turn tighter on both bolts brought the neck back to where it should be. That was a pleasant surprize. I think Taylor is now bolting on their necks, but Martin is a slave to tradition.
Thank you for this very informative video especially the last half. A lot of video's talk about neck resets but your explanation and demo is the BEST on TH-cam so far!
This has been my "go to" video when showing otbers or just reminding myself on neck sets. The best one out there!
Excellent video Gil, thanks a lot!
Yes, I have heard David Greer tell that story. Resets change the geometry of the guitar so the sound can change. In the vast majority of cases, I'd say the sound improves or stays the same. The thing is that once the geometry gets bad enough, you may have a choice between possibly changing the guitar's sound and a guitar that is hardly playable.
Thanks Gill, I appreciate the ruler test trick
Ed King played a Martin 00-18. Great video man.
Thanks-- clearly explained and very helpful!
Thanks Excellent job - some guys used to use a quarter at the 12th fret. But back then we we not looking at Martins. A USA Quarter = 0.0675 ish of an inch Two dimes = 0.10 ish of an inch. Either way of often do you have your micrometers with you?
Also like the 16 inch ruler on the frets to measure fret board to bridge / saddle relationship. AdamK
Very very clear. Makes an complicated stuff understandable for anyone interested
Scott Baxendale, as maybe some of you know, is a long-experienced and excellent repair guy and builder. Thanks for piping in, Scott. However, here is a very recent Facebook quote from TJ Thompson, perhaps the most well-known and respected vintage repair person in the country, regarding steel string tension:
"The 1st time I saw 75lbs of steel stacked on a guitar was at the Martin factory in 1984 (still the best way I know to clamp a pick guard in place while adhesive dries). I was at once horrified and intrigued. Around that same time I heard that steel strings exert roughly 154lbs of tension/pull on the guitar’s top, and I thought to myself “hey, that’s how much I weigh!”. If your mind works anything like mine, you know where this is going. So I set the back of my first guitar body (still neck-less) into a carved fixture that supported the sides evenly (more on this later), put some protective paper on the spruce top, positioned the whole rig under my chin-up bar, removed my shoes and stepped right up. Spoiler alert, the top held and the guitar is still going strong, whew."
The string tension is not a dead weight perpendicular to the springs. If you want to simulate the force, you would need to stand the guitar upright and apply the load downward on the headstock. I think your experiment definitely proves that my mind does not work like yours.
Yes, a shim, or really a "wedge" is usually added under the fingerboard that extends over the guitar top. Starting at nothing, the wedge gets taller between the neck joint and end of the fingerboard near the sound hole. On really valuable and "all-original" guitars, in "collector condition" some purists don't put in a shim. But without one, the fingerboard appears to "dive" down at the point where the fingerboard hits the body, and those highest frets are fairly unplayable because the string height is so high. Most fingerboards are ebony or rosewood and, if a skilled craftsman is doing it, matching wood can be used for the wedge and it will look seamless and not catch the eye. Or, put another way, a wedge looks a lot better than a diving fingerboard tab, which DOES catch the eye. One twist on this is when the fingerboard is bound. I've never seen a "bound" shim. I have a harp guitar (Dyer #7) with a bound ebony fingerboard and an ebony shim was put under the fingerboard extension during reset. Looks fine, and much better than the alternative (no-shim/diving fingerboard) to my eye.
I had to have the neck reset on my 5 year old Martin. Martin covered it under warranty. I had to shave the saddle when it was new to get the action to an acceptable height . After four years the saddle was almost flush with the bridge and without the tension from the strings pushing down on to the saddle tone was suffering.
I have a new guitar that failed the ruler test. The tip of the ruler lands at the 1/3 top of the bridge. There is a bow between frets 12-20. What else can I look for apart from a neck reset?
Thanks for the video! Very useful!
Ha! Yeah, I guess pocket change like dimes is not as common as it once was... especially in Europe. I used dimes so people didn't have to be exact, and didn't have to find a ruler, as many folks just don't have the patience or coordination. But I hear you. For those who want to measure, in general, you want the space between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the thickest low string to be LESS than 1/8", preferably quite a bit less. If you are at 1/8" or more, it is highly likely that you need a neck reset. Keep in mind that this assumes that the bridge is still full height and has not been shaved down. There is info on bridge and saddle heights in the vid.
Nice nice job explaining how to do the reset thanks
Good job! I'm an Argentine luthier. How much does that job cost? Thank you
Yeah, Retire Soon, I've heard of occasional new Martins that need resets way sooner than they should. Could be they are just making too many of them too fast and some detail, like drying out the wood enough, falls through the cracks. My understanding is that they have taken neck resets off the warranty coverage. Certainly they won't cover it anymore after a bunch of years have gone by like they used to. So while it is unlucky that this happened to you, you are lucky they covered it. Your point that the guitar sounded bad with a low saddle is a good one and it is likely clear to you that you were losing a degree of tone every time you lowered that saddle to get the action better.
Yours was a pretty new guitar, so it made sense to bring it back to Martin, and they will do a good job fixing it (though it usually takes a LONG time!) One point that I try to make in the "Advice" section of my website, GrandmasGuitar.com, is that, for VINTAGE Martins, it is actually not a good idea to take it back to the factory for repair or restoration. Martin is in the business of making and selling NEW guitars, and while they certainly CAN fix vintage instruments, they are NOT up to speed on the latest and most acceptable restoration techniques. Until not long ago, they would overspray the entire guitar to make it look "fresh" after any repair. ANY repair. Seems like a nice service, but it ended up devaluing countless guitars. There are many restoration experts who are far better with vintage instruments than Martin is, because vintage restorations are all they do.
Hi Jasper; In this discussion I'm talking about how hide glue is used in the neck joint. It is perfect for that purpose because it can be fairly easily "unstuck" with heat and moisture, when the guitar's geometry needs to be corrected. Martin stopped using hide glue in constructing their guitar bodies in 1965. I'm not sure when they stopped using hide glue for the neck joints but it was likely much later.
In terms of "sound", when considered on its own, I don't think the kind of glue used makes a hearable difference in a guitar. BUT, let's say it makes a 1% difference, because it is harder than other glues and therefore "conducts" vibrations better. When added to the MANY other differences between vintage guitars and modern guitars, all the little differences (thinner finish, lighter woods, lighter bracing, etc etc) add up to a very "hearable" total. So it is not JUST hide glue that can make a vintage guitar sound better, it is many things, of which hide glue is likely one.
What is the method for ensuring that the neck once reset is exactly perfectly centered on the fretboard? Every video on TH-cam talks about equal shims on heel and sanding but no one talks about how to establish a precise center line prior to re-glueing. Please share your thoughts.
Hi Gil, I have questions about my 1943 000-18 needing a neck reset. Before I found your site, all I could get here at was repair guys doing neck resets; nicely done, but not answering my questions. Your video is great (Edit: I love the dime method) and clued me in regarding my 000's needs. In decimals of an inch, at what height would you consider too high? My 000 is at 0.10 in.(which I like) but the original saddle is getting pretty low; guitar sounds amazing though. Thank You!!
If you like the action and it sounds good , then what's your complaint ?
@@maplebones who's complaining, you?
The action will likely continue to get higher over time. When it gets to the point where you are having trouble with it a neck reset is likely due. There is kind of a feeling of "too much tension" on the strings when a neck reset is needed. I feel it immediately and hate that feeling!
What string height is "too high" is a bit of a personal call, but the two dime method is, for me, the point of no return. On the plus side, when you do have a reset done and get the geometry correct, you'll end up with a new, taller saddle and that increased break angle over the saddle should make the guitar sound better. It should also be easier to play, with the strings hovering closer to the frets.
Well explained. Just what I was looking for. Tanks for sharing.
Cool, Thanks Florian!
Well having repair and or maintenance costs that outweigh the value of the instrument is something that I deal with all the time, and it is hard! I buy and restore exclusively vintage instruments-- always pre-1969 and almost always much older than that. And I try to buy instruments that have decent value-- enough that I can give them the love they need and not end up under water. It can be sad to tell someone that the guitar or banjo that they think is worth $1000 dollars IS worth that... but only after $1200 worth of work! If you are buying a modern guitar for $1000 it should not need a reset for at least 15 years, probably longer. If the instrument sounds good and you have fallen in love with it over that 15 year stretch, it could be worth doing a neck reset and maybe some new frets. It's up-keep, and most instruments will need service now and again... it's part of the program. Cars are the same way. but you can't write a song with a car.
A neck reset should not cost thousands of dollars. I can see a couple hundred but not $500. Especially since it's much easier to remove a neck now with like StewMac tools than it used to be back in the old days. My local Martin certified luthier does it for $250 maybe less if you are a repeat customer.
I hear people say in an ideal world a lot, I have a D-15 from about 2000. The top has no belly and it is flat. It always had a little bit of a high action. First off should strings break de-tuned when not in use? Also at what point do you do a reset. Ideal is never going to be achievable through the lifespan of a guitar between sets
what is the thickness of two dimes?
Thanks Nathan!
Hi Bandicoot; If you got your measurements right, the first thing I'd say is that the saddle is not low. 1/4" on the bass side is actually too-tall. If the ruler is hitting 1/16" down from the top of the bridge (not the bridge saddle), that is odd. Seems like the guitar might benefit from a trip to a luthier for a setup. The string height sounds OK. So it is hard to visualize what's going on. If you bought it new, it sounds like it should possibly go back to Martin for a neck set, if they still honor that in their guarantee (that might be not available anymore). Best of luck.
The ruler test is only reliable if the neck is perfectly straight. Also a bridge might be high because of too much humidity, loose bracing etc. These factors and many more must be taken into account before going for a reset. Also there seems to be some kind of hysteria regarding low action but I would wager most acoustics are rarely played past the fourth fret 😄 so action at the twelfth fret is non issue for most.
Pablo Escobar I agree with what PEscobar has written here. In addition, bringing the instrument up to proper humidification is a must before assessing for a neck reset. Surprising body changes can occur with humidification, particularly for a vintage acoustic.
I am trying to give laymen an easy test that works 95% of the time. Then neck doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but that helps. If the guitar has loose bracing and/or an overhumidified/swelled top, then yes, it could make the string height overly high. The luthier that they bring the guitar to will quickly see that. In my experience, high string height is most often a symptom of a guitar that needs a reset. And yes, most people play in the "cowboy chord" area of the first few frets, but a guitar with high action in need of a reset feels "tension-y" and slightly but very noticeably uncomfortable even within those first few frets. Getting the guitar's geometry squared away will make it sound and play its best.
If your guitar has gone through drastic humidity changes and the strings are now too high/or too low, then getting the guitar into stable 40% humidity is recommended for a few weeks to see where it settles. THEN do the tests.
Most people playing a wartime Martin will probably play past the fourth fret. Most of us who play a Martin guitar play past the fourth fret. Most belly rise cannot be solved by humidity control. A loose brace is an easy fix but will it solve the belly rise? Doubtful. Otherwise, you are looking at a neck reset... yIDoghQo'
Jeff Watson I’ve never used one. I am not a luthier, but I have heard that they are best for a collapsed top rather than one that is lifting.
When the action on my 1966 Martin D-28 reached 10/64 at the 12th fret, it was time for a trip to the Martin factory. They did a neck reset, and the guitar has been just fine for the last 30 years! Also, remember when flying, to LOOSEN all the strings ALL the way...that 150 pounds of string tension is a real concern--especially if the guitar HAS to go in as baggage--even 'escort baggage' where it is hand loaded at the entrance to the plane itself.
Thank you!
Should you check the neck alignment to the bridge with strings tension or without? Thank you
Yes, having tension on the neck is best, but the "straight edge" method of checking the neck angle is still quite accurate if you have a guitar that has no strings on it.
Check it both ways and you'll be able to estimate the effects.
My year old Martin GPCMMV, useing the ruler it hits the bridge top, not the saddle by a 1/16th of an inch, the saddle is low 1/8th treble 1/4th bass, 7/64th at the bottom of the twelfth fret string height. It plays stiff, and if I lower the saddle to 6/64th it will be low. So I guess it's the neck. I took care of it, 50% humidity 76 degrees in case, constant. By the way, none of the other two Martins, D28 and OM21 hit that mark and they play perfect and the action is stable at 6/64ths.
Cool story (except for the stolen guitar part). Yes, Martin would have reset the neck, if you were the original owner, but you would have had to pay to ship it to them and then wait months. I've heard that they are no longer offering this as part of their guarantee, or that they've added some requirements that make it harder to get the reset done on their dime...
Correct Gil. I am the original owner of a 1974 D12 35. Martin said the neck reset was not covered by the limited (note the word) lifetime warranty. I paid about $1,600 for a neck reset and related work. Unfortunately, two years later, the action is getting high and the neck is on the move. Checking that all out soon with a pro.
what about when thw neck is back bowed and warped, and the strings are laying on the fingerboard??
When we're discussing neck resets, we are not talking about the straightness of the neck itself. The neck can be dead straight, and the guitar can still need a reset. It is the neck ANGLE to the body that we're dealing with in a neck reset situation. If you have a neck that is back bowed, that is a truss rod issue. Tighten the rod a little at a time and that will add more "relief" in the neck and straighten it. If the neck is actually straight but the strings are still lying on the upper frets, the neck has likely been "overset" (i.e. cocked to far back during a reset). To reverse that is not easy but can be done, by a competent luthier. I've had that done once and it came out perfectly but my guy is highly skilled.
Hey there. A new guitar should not have neck angle problems unless it was really poorly constructed. I deal with vintage acoustic instruments, mostly. Most modern instruments have a truss rod in the neck. Now you say there is a bow in the neck, but above the 12th fret shouldn't matter much. A Truss rod can usually be used to correct a bow, but not that high up. In correcting a bow with a truss rod adjustment, there is a chance that that will somewhat improve the issue. But what is the issue? High string height at the 12th fret?
Importantly, , I don't know if you are talking about an acoustic or an electric guitar here...
But I'd say if it is new, and isn't playable due to neck angle issues and strings too far from the frets, it should be returned to where it was bought, if it is an acoustic guitar. If this is an electric guitar with a bolted on neck, that is an easy fix and can be corrected by taking off the neck and shimming it to tilt it back. An electric with a glued-in neck is a different kettle of fish and likely should get returned. Tell me more, and send photos, or bring it to someone knowledgable and get them to look at it...! I hope it is correctable.
Hi. I have a brand new dreadnought guitar and the bridge on the base part is a bit higher the the treble side. I shaved the bass part of the bridge to make it equal to the treble side. My question is since i shaves it off, using the straight edge from the neck, I see about 1mm of space between the bridge and the straight edge. Some videos says that is sould landat the top of the bridge, some says it should have a bit of space. Is that okay? Or should I replace the bridge? What is your thought about this?
Hi,
I'm putting a new top on a 12 string acoustic. I removed the old top but left the binding on. When I glue the top in place, what should the neck angle be in relation to the bridge with no strings and no tension. This will determine the length of the top. Thanks
About 1/8". The dimes are used so that people don't have to find a ruler, hold it still and then squint to figure out the height. It's not exact, but pretty good.
Depending on where you live, neck resets are about $400-600. Yes, the job is the same for older as it is for newer instruments. It is key to have someone who knows vintage instruments work on an old guitar. I have seen neck heels broken and necks "overset" (action too low) by people who don't know the nuances of vintage guitars. Done properly, a neck reset is one of the only alterations to a vintage instrument that does not lower its value. In fact, a reset can increase the value because the playability and sound are improved by a proper reset.
Does a refret lower the value?
@@stackedhippiechick Well, stackedhippiechick, the subject here is "resets" not "refrets", but the answer is the same for both. "No". With correct neck angle the guitar will play better and sound better. The originality and value is not effected, provided that the work is done well.. Refretting is pretty much the same thing. This is all my opinion, but I think most vintage experts would agree. That said, an investment in frets or reset is not necessarily something that will produce a positive return in a sale.These things are more like maintenance, not "improvements."
hello sir, do you think there is another way to loosen up the glue without drilling a pinhole under 14th fret? If there is not, do I have to drill one or two holes? do I have to cover that hole after re-gluing the neck? thanks in advance. I enjoy your explanation in this video, very clear so I want to try resetting my guitar.
Jerry, I would not recommend doing this yourself, but if you have a guitar that you don't mind messing up I guess you have to start somewhere.
No there is no other way other than loosening the glue in the neck joint that is acceptable in today's practice. Usually one hole is drilled and often a modified cappuccino machine is used to inject the steam. You want to protect the face of the guitar while you inject steam. Putting the fret back in at the end of the job will cover the hole.
Best would be to watch neck reset videos or to get instruction from someone who has done it before. Good luck!
I sent one to martin on warranty,,the said a neck reset,i got it back ,and straight edge still hit the bridge by a .060.ths
They screwd me
Hello. Does the hide glue sound much better on a Martin D18?
It's impossible to know.
Hide glue was discontinued by Martin after 1964. That glue is renown for drying glass hard and therefore transferring vibration better. Whether you can hear the difference is up to your ears. I have found that while I can't hear the difference when one detail, like glue, is different, I feel I can when I add up all the things that make a vintage guitar different; the top wood, glue, thickness and kind of finish, etc. I think hide glue is a minor but still relevant component in the vintage sound.
Francis; I think there are typos in your questions, but let's see... A guitar that is 20 years old could need a reset, especially if the neck angle was not done too well in the first place. It is possible that the neck is bowed and could be straightened with the truss rod and this would make the action feel better without the big expense of doing a reset. A reset is for the neck angle correction, not neck straightness correction. Also, the strings should be detuned if you aren't going to play the guitar for a while to relieve tension on the neck. Finally, I'll say that older (50 years or so) guitars are less likely to need resets, especially if they have had one in their past. Guitars tend to "settle" and stop changing as much, so, potentially, after about 50 years, the guitar is pretty much how it will stay, or at least close. That is my impression, at least.
At what point to do a reset? When the high action becomes limiting to your enjoyment of playing. And when you have +/-$500 you can spare!
I didn't see any mention of truss rods. Do the guitars you're describing not have a truss rod, or are resets sometimes needed even if there is one?
Good question. Yes, the guitars I'm describing in the video don't have adjustable truss rods, though many guitars had non adjustable rods of metal or ebony in the neck to help keep them straight. The key thing to keep in mind is that the neck ANGLE is a different issue than neck STRAIGHTNESS. An adjustable truss rod can be used to get the neck straight if there is a bow in it. It can't be used to change the neck's angle to the body. Changing the neck angle on an instrument that has a glued-in (vs. bolted on) neck calls for a neck reset. So, yes, resets can be needed even if there is an adjustable truss rod.
For years, no other manufacturer other than Gibson used an adjustable truss rod because Gibson patented the adjustable truss rod in the '20s. Gibson used them on the vast majority of Gibson-branded instruments. (Gibson built instruments with other house brands on the headstock (Kalamazoo, Recording King, Kel Kroydon, Mastertone, etc.) and they nearly always left out the adjustable truss rod, or ANY straightening rod in these off-brand builds. If you wanted a truss rod, you had to buy a flagship Gibson. The Gibson off-brands often need BOTH neck straightening (difficult to do without any rod, but doable) AND a reset. That said, again, a truss rod does not make the guitar less vulnerable to the need for a neck reset. The need for a reset is more a factor of the lightness and geometry of the build of the guitar. Vintage Gibsons, with or without truss rods, do sometimes need neck resets and vintage Martins usually do. This is likely because Martins, in general, are more lightly built and braced than most Gibsons.
I've found it unusual to come across a Martin guitar with a bowed neck. From the 1800's to the early '30s, Martin used bar frets to keep their necks straight. (the frets are "wedge" shaped and force the fingerboard flat). After that, not counting a few years of metal shortage (1942-1945 and 1953), Martin used non-adjustable, T-shaped metal rods to keep the necks straight. Both these systems worked well. They didn't start using adjustable rods till much later, when Gibson's patent ran out.
I have found "the ruler test" and the "dime test" to be excellent GENERAL indicators of the guitar's geometry. And the tests can be done easily by someone who doesn't know much about guitars. Yes, loose bracing and/or too much humidity can make the top "belly" up and increase the bridge height, but in my experience that does not negate the value of the general tests. Maybe in another video I'll do a different test with the ruler laid parallel and just below the bridge, to show how a top can bulge behind the bridge. That said, some "belly" in the bridge area is an appropriate and even good thing, in my opinion, as I want the top to be under tension. As they say: the best sounding guitars are very lightly built and just under the point of exploding from string tension. Its a delicate balance.
To the point that the string height (action) is not important at the 12th fret, I would somewhat agree that many people don't play up that high very often, BUT I would also say that playability up high on the neck is not the only (nor the most important) reason for resetting a neck. When the neck is pulled forward, yes the guitar is hard to play on the higher frets, but it also has an unmistakable feeling of "tension" even in fretting the lower frets. That's because the overall geometry is out of whack. Furthermore, a guitar with proper geometry/neck angle will often SOUND better than one in need of a reset. Everything-- the feel, the intonation, the action, etc. is better. I play a lot with a bottleneck slide (th-cam.com/video/HPmeHfJh1wY/w-d-xo.html) so I like higher action (the slide rides on top of the strings… it doesn't push them down and "fret" them like a finger does), but ALL my three vintage harp guitars I bought needed neck resets.
To the person asking about setting up a new top on their 12string acoustic, the question of the neck angle in relation to the bridge with no string tension is a good one, but far beyond my knowledge. I am not a luthier. I sure wish I was as it would save me thousands and thousands that I spend on neck resets, loose braces, cracks repair, fret work, etc. etc. Your question should be addressed to a qualified luthier. I have found luthiers who I think are the best at a particular job or who are the best with a particular brand of guitar and I pay them highly for their expertise. I also demand their best work. I don't ever want to mess up an instrument that I care about by working on some part of it that is over my head. THere is a discussion of that here, on my website, GrandmasGuitar.com…
grandmasguitar.com/martin-gibson-timeline.html
HI, i have a Kent Chasson guitar with a cantilever neck. Can these kind of necks be easier or harder to set up in a general guitar first set up? As thinking about it, although it has a much faster angle set up for high or low action when newer, but to get a similar low action later when all other adjustments are made maybe although it doesn't really need re-fretting it maybe the case in order to obtain the same optimum string height ie low string action as it was before if that make sense!?
Well, yes the mahogany Martin had a saddle that was too high. The neck had been over-set (tilted back too far) by an inexperienced repair person. However, a high saddle doesn't create bellying in the top, it creates too much break angle and will cause the front of the bridge to break off. Belly is caused by bracing that has flexed out of shape due to string tension at the bridge, or loose braces. Some bellying is a good thing, in my opinion, as you want the top to be under tension.
The action still looks quite high to me on both of those guitars after the reset. What is the measurement of two dimes in mm? I’m Based in UK and curious what measurement you are classing as correct height.
Well, you want the dimes to be "held" by the string tension. So you want the string height to be less than 1/8" or 3.175mm. Neck setting is an art not a science, so it can be hard to predict exactly what you'll end up with in the end. Part of this is that the guitar changes with string tension on it. Most guys measure the top deflection under tension before the reset, and figure that in, hoping to end up with a tall saddle height that they can then shave down to get good action. Another thing that can make the action look high is if the frets are tall. The distance you are measuring is from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string, but your eye is "seeing" the top of the fingerboard to the bottom of the string, and that can be an optical illusion. OR it could be that the not enough wood was removed from the heel, and the geometry wasn't improved as much as it should have been... it happens!
@@gilgaus9493 thank you for that info
One place where mass manufacturers save money is in setting up their guitars. Many don't do anything and expect the shops to do setups. Many buyers can't tell the difference and assume since a guitar is "new" that it is perfect. Most are not. Also, manufacturers can set the action high so that there is less chance of string buzz (i.e. high action hides the lack of set up work.) Also, let's say the guitar shipped from a dry place to a humid place or a cold place to a hot place. In both cases the acoustic guitar top will expand and the bridge will rise. That could account for the straight edge hitting the bridge. New guitars are not stable; they are still drying out, still moving. Sometimes the wood they were built from was not dried long enough or wood that was too young and "green". All this means that a new guitar can have plenty of issues-- even the need for a neck reset. Old guitars (25+ years), on the other hand, ARE stable. They've done all the moving and shrinking they are going to do unless they are exposed to drastic conditions. Another reason why older is better!
Hey, how about the fretboard bending down because of humidity?
The fretboard does not bend down because of humidity. The sound hole area "caves in" some as the guitar slightly folds in half and the fretboard angling down toward the hole is a symptom of that. Many times, a neck reset will include a wedge/shim under the fingerboard tab (the part overt the body) to compensate for the drop off of the fingerboard.
what do you mean with the "base of the saddle"?
To my understanding the base of the sddle is hidden in the bridge slot.
Hi; Technically you are right, but when I say the "base of the saddle" I mean the point where it meets with the wood of the bridge. I am concerned with how much saddle is showing above the wood of the bridge.
so you mean the top of the bridge
@@allanpennington That's correct.
How much would it cost to have a neck reset? The work and price the same with older vintage? 40 50 60yrs old to 10 yr old?
Back in the late 80s, a neck reset would cost around $220.
My 74 D35 Martin has worn frets, (beyond the 4th fret too). Would it be best to do a refret first before deciding on a neck reset? The last setup was done by a 'qualified' tech and the nut and saddle replaced, however the action is still a little high and the guitar is stiff to play even at the bottom end. The action could only be lowered so much due to fret wear. Would it be best to do a refret first before deciding on a neck reset?
It sounds like you need frets AND a reset, I'm afraid. Frets are usually done AFTER the reset. If you do the "ruler" test in the video and your neck angle is off, new frets aren't going to help that. On the plus side, once you do a reset you'll get a new higher saddle which will help the guitar sound better. And new frets with improved neck angle will make it easier to play. (Early '70s Martins are infamous for having the bridge in the wrong place and the intonation being off... if you have a really good repair person, they might be able to help with that too, during a reset.) Best of luck.
Thanks, the intonation is good as is the placement of the bridge.
David greer had a vintage martin given by his father and he says 5 of America best luthiers told him he needed a neck reset and so he did it. And the guitar sounded terrible after. He said it completely ruined the sound.
Usually on a guitar say that cost new 1000 bucks or less that needs a neck reset. What your looking at is a total loss if you factor in the cost of a reset against what the instrument worth.
So what happens to the fretboard tab after a neck reset? I assume you need to shim under it but then what does that look like? Thanks.
It goes back at the same spot without shims.
I cover this above, but yes a shim is often added. When done well it looks great and eliminates the look of the fingerboard tab "diving" down into the top. The shim should be the same wood as the fingerboard and can be blended to be visually not a distraction
Patrick, first off, I think what you are talking about is that you shaved down the bridge SADDLE, not the actual bridge, which is the wood that holds the saddle (usually a white strip made of bone or plastic). A new guitar shouldn't need adjustment, but modern companies cut corners often and don't do a proper setup. The bass side height of the bridge saddle should not necessarily be the same height as the treble side, it is more a matter of how low you want the action (string height to the frets) on the bass side and you also don't want the strings to get fret buzz because the action is too low. My whole video is about neck ANGLE. The neck angle on a new guitar really should be fine and shaving the bridge saddle does not effect the neck angle, it only effects the string height. If a straight edge set on its edge and on the fret tops hits the BRIDGE wood (not the saddle) 1 mm below the base of the saddle that is not very good on a new instrument. The leading corner of the straight edge should hit the base of the saddle. If the leading edge hits 1mm up onto the saddle then your neck is "overset" and that is a big problem. It should be returned to where it came from. I hope this helps, I'm a little unclear that we are speaking the same language..!
Masterpiece.
this is pre-truss rod correct?
Yes, pre- truss rod. Gibson had the patent on truss rods since the early '20s so other companies didn't use them. However, as I say above, "When we're discussing neck resets, we are not talking about the straightness of the neck itself. The neck can be dead straight, and the guitar can still need a reset." It is the neck ANGLE to the body that we're dealing with in a neck reset situation. Neck straightness is a truss rod issue. Old Martins don't have truss rods, but the neck can be straightend using "compression fretting" basically using slightly thicker frets to force the bow out of a neck. Real old Martins had "Bar Frets". A great luthier can even use compression to straighten a bar fret neck.
thanks!
In the States, a neck reset can be $400-$600 depending on where in the country you are and the complexity of the job.
I had (was stolen 2015) a 1997 D-18, the action was high, my cousin, Jim Macintosh, is a master wood craftsman and makes guitars, he reset the neck for me and it was awesome, I paid for the tools needed. Nice to see the process explained, Thanks! I was told that Martin Co would have reset it for me but I didn't have the original receipt anymore.
Thank you for this video, I thought you explained this very well. 👍
Every time I try and find someone to give me some real knowledge on neck angle, I have to first listen to all this 101neckprattle to get to the meat of the discussion.
It’s not 150lbs of tension. It’s more like 70-80lbs. The bridge doesn’t rise, but the neck block rotates over time.
Relief(bow) of the neck is an entirely different issue than the neck angle. This confusion has been beat to death. An adjustable rod doesn’t fix a bad neck angle, and a neck reset doesn’t correct too much relief. The neck plane should line up exactly with the top of the bridge under tension. The bridge should be .350” thick and the saddle should be about 3/16” with low action. This will indicate the neck is set correctly.
Hopefully, you got the "meat" your were looking for... eventually. The majority of people I hear from need the elementary stuff and seem to appreciate the 101 kind of stuff. Perhaps you are ready for a second level course.
looks liked its time to buy a electric guitar. Choose one with a removable neck so you don't have this problem, or if you do its easily fixed. Just unbolt and add shims.. done! BTW acoustic guitars should all have removable necks. Guitar is all about a string vibration above a fret board where you can play notes. No need to over complicate it with fixed necks..
My 2003 Tacoma acoustic had all the indications of needing a reset. Fortunately, as I began the operation, I noticed the first bolt I loosened seemed too easy to turn. A half turn tighter on both bolts brought the neck back to where it should be. That was a pleasant surprize. I think Taylor is now bolting on their necks, but Martin is a slave to tradition.
Low or no relief, high action, low sadle, low bridge, it needs reset, you dont need tools.
Greaaaaaaaaaatttt Videooooooo!!!!!!,...
Way easier on the elephants! Duh...
Didn't you want to try to spell out an elephant trumpeting sound effect?
this is nonsense